Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 4 Jul 2012

Vol. 771 No. 2

Order of Business

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take No. 13, statements on European Council, Brussels; No. 14, Industrial Relations (Amendment) (No. 3) Bill 2011 - Order for Report, Report and Final Stages; and No. 1, Criminal Justice (Search Warrants) Bill 2012[Seanad] - Second Stage (resumed).

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the Dáil shall sit later than 9 p.m. tonight and shall adjourn not later than 10 p.m.; the proceedings in respect of No. 13 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 85 minutes and the following arrangements shall apply: (i) the statements shall be made by the Taoiseach and by the main spokespersons for Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin and the Technical Group, who shall be called upon in that order and who may share their time, and shall not exceed 15 minutes in each case, (ii) a Minister or Minister of State shall take questions for a period not exceeding 20 minutes, and (iii) a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a statement in reply which shall not exceed five minutes; and the Report and Final Stages of No. 14 shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously concluded be brought to a conclusion at 10 p.m. today by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in respect of amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation.

Private Members' business shall be No. 32, Education (Amendment) (Protection of Schools) Bill 2012 – Second Stage (resumed), to conclude at 9 p.m., if not previously concluded.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There are three proposals to be put to the House today. Is the proposal that the Dáil shall sit later than 9 p.m. agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 13, statements on European Council, Brussels, agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 14, Report and Final Stages of the Industrial Relations (Amendment) (No. 3) Bill 2011, agreed to? Agreed.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Last week saw the spectacle of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, calling on the Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly, to intervene personally to address the deficit, as well as expressing his concerns about governance within the health service. Fianna Fáil has asked consistently in the Chamber about the proposed HSE governance Bill because, as the Taoiseach is aware, well over 12 months ago the Minister, Deputy Reilly, abolished the board of the HSE, put nothing in its place and assumed control himself. Since then, most analysts will accept it has been quite directionless and no one has a sense of where the health service is going in respect of any of the major items in the programme for Government. Moreover, no one has a sense of who is or has been responsible over the past 12 months in respect of the ongoing drift. The Taoiseach should provide a timeline in respect of the HSE governance Bill, both with regard to its publication and as to when he expects the Bill to be brought before the House, debated and implemented.

In respect of promised legislation, I raised an issue during Leaders' Questions about what I consider to have been a false Estimate provided to this House last December by the Minister for Health. Part of the reasoning behind that concerned the figures, wherein a sum of €124 million was included in respect of drug pricing. The Taoiseach should outline to Members the current status of the health (pricing and supply of medical goods) Bill. When can Members expect publication and completion of this Bill and what is the timeline for its implementation? The Estimate was included in December but the chief executive officer of the HSE has stated that figure is not realisable and simply cannot be achieved. Of course it cannot be achieved if neither the legislation nor the agreements necessary to achieve it have been put in place. It was only last week that the Minister announced he had agreed to enter into talks with the Irish Pharmaceutical Healthcare Association.

There seems to me to have been complete dishonesty about all of this. How can such big figures be put into the Estimate on the revenue side if the basic mechanics to facilitate the collection of that money have not even been put in place? That is disgraceful. We need answers because as an alternative to what was proposed in December, the Minister will now hit front-line services. Deputy Deasy said that this would mean ward closures, bed closures and so on. The Minister lashed out at workers last week. In spite of the fact that Cathal Magee said he was happy with the implementation of the Croke Park agreement and the health service, the Minister started focusing on workers because of his own failings.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Martin asked about the HSE governance Bill. I dealt with this yesterday. The Deputy is well aware of the extent of legislation that is required by the timelines of the troika. One of those Bills was the Personal Insolvency Bill 2012, which was published last week and is over 200 pages long. The Parliamentary Counsel and the Attorney General's office have been working flat out in dealing with legislation in recent months. They are now working in relays on the HSE governance Bill. That Bill will be published before the end of this session. The Deputy asked me when it will be finalised, but I cannot answer that because I do not know how long people will want to address------

Deputy Micheál Martin

Would it not better if the existing board was left in place and there was a governance system? At the moment there is no governance system. Why abolish the board and have nothing in its place for 16 months?

The Taoiseach

The Deputy refers to the CEO of the HSE saying that things cannot be realised. On a bigger scale people were saying that nothing would be realised from the ESM in respect of direct injections into banks. Politics is always about what is achievable, as the Deputy knows.

Deputy Micheál Martin

That is no comparison.

The Taoiseach

It is not true to say that there is no interim board of the HSE. There are 12 people on such a board and it is chaired by the secretary general of the Department of Health.

The IPHA has made a payment of €10 million to the Department. The Minister is negotiating with the association in respect of the €124 million payment over the next three years. It is to be hoped those discussions will conclude shortly.

I cannot answer the Deputy's question on when the legislation will become law, but it will be published before the House rises for the summer. If the Deputy wants this House to sit later to deal with this Bill, I have no problem with that.

Deputy Micheál Martin

On a point of order, the Taoiseach can do what he likes in running this House. He knows that because he has the numbers. He should not be giving me infantile comments on whether I want the House to sit longer. That is his call.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Let us do it.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Taoiseach runs this House. The Whips are only nominally involved.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is this on legislation?

Deputy James Reilly

There is some hypocrisy in the Deputy's concern, given that he was wringing his hands for 14 years.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The real point is that the Taoiseach has admitted to the House that the legislative changes upon which the Minister for Health based his Estimate will not even be passed before the summer recess. That shows how false the Estimate was.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

That is rich, given the way this country was run------

Deputy Micheál Martin

The legislation will now come before the House in the autumn and very large sums of money were based on that legislation being passed before then. That is what we were told last December. That is how false the health Estimate was. Patients are going to suffer on the double between now and Christmas because of that dishonesty in preparing the Estimate. The legislation will not now be ready until the autumn at the earliest.

Deputy James Reilly

There are fewer patients on trolleys for the first time in 15 years.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy was always the Minister who refused to make decisions because he did not have the courage to do so.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

The Taoiseach

When he was Minister with responsibility for health, 120 reports lay on the shelves gathering dust.

Deputy James Reilly

He spent €5.3 million on consultancy reports that went nowhere.

The Taoiseach

This Bill will be published before the end of this session.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I have to call on Deputy Mac Lochlainn.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I would like the Taoiseach to answer the direct charge. How can he put money into an Estimate when the legislation upon which it is based is not ready until the autumn?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are moving on.

Deputy James Reilly

Would the Deputy like to tell us about PPARS?

Deputy Micheál Martin

I have asked that question repeatedly this morning, and all the Taoiseach can do is go back four years or five years. He cannot answer but he is responsible-----

(Interruptions).

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Martin, we are moving on.

Deputy James Reilly

Is the Deputy afraid that we are going to succeed?

Deputy Micheál Martin

Quite the opposite. The Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform is obviously not convinced the Government will succeed.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputies, we cannot even hear each other. I call on Deputy Mac Lochlainn.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

It is an interesting day in here. When does the Government plan to publish the constitutional amendment Bill for the children's referendum? When does the Government intend to publish legislation to allow for a referendum on the abolition of the Seanad? When will the constitutional convention be established and what is the plan for the legislation required to make that happen?

The Taoiseach

The legislation on the constitutional convention will come before the Dáil and the Seanad next week. I hope the constitutional convention will have its first meeting in September. Work is proceeding on the children's referendum with the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs and different groups on a wording that can be agreed. I expect that the child protection referendum will be held in the autumn. I do not want to nominate a particular week until all is ready for the Bill to be published. That requires agreement among those groups that have done a great amount of work on the wording. I will keep the House updated on it, but it is my intention to have it in the autumn.

I have not fixed a date for a referendum on the abolition of the Seanad. That is outside the remit of the constitutional convention. The Government will publish the Bill in due course and put it to the people. We must have consideration for things like the fact we have the EU Presidency from 1 January until June 2013, but we will talk about these issues. The child protection referendum will be later in the autumn and a referendum on the Seanad will be at a later date.

Deputy Jerry Buttimer

I spoke about the flooding in Cork yesterday during the Topical Issue debate with the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government. My question today is about legislation on holding insurance companies to account. Many insurance companies are failing to negotiate, to interact or to engage fairly with residents. Some of these residents have not had a claim for 25 years and have never suffered flooding, but now we see insurance companies running to the four corners saying that we are in a flood plain when they know we are not in a flood plain.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is there legislation promised on this?

Deputy Jerry Buttimer

You showed great latitude to Deputy Martin a while ago, so you might do the same for me, please.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Please, Deputy.

Deputy Jerry Buttimer

He was the former Minister with responsibility for health who sat on his hands for 14 years and did nothing.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair tries to be impartial. Can we have your question, please?

Deputy Jerry Buttimer

I appreciate that. Can the Parliament hold insurance companies to account on the way they treat ordinary people?

The Taoiseach

I am quite sure that representatives of the insurance companies would be happy to attend the appropriate Oireachtas committee to explain the reasons for their decisions. The Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government has responded to the consequences of the flooding in Douglas, Clonakilty and in Cork generally. This is a terrible mess for people and it caused absolute mayhem for those traders who never expected a river to flow into their shopping centre. I sympathise with those who have had their homes and business premises flooded with mud, silt and water. As the Deputy pointed out, it would have been the last thing on their mind to have insurance against floods, depending on their location.

I do not see why representatives of insurance companies should not attend the appropriate Oireachtas committees, but the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, together with the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport and the Minister for Social Protection, will try to respond as best they can for those who had their homes and business premises destroyed by the floods in Cork.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

When is the health (amendment) Bill to be published that will provide publicly funded GP care without fees at the point of use to claimants of free drugs under the long-term illness scheme? Last week, I pointed out to the Taoiseach that many people will be left without a proper television service when the digital changeover to Saorview and Saorsat takes place. In one area over 500 people will not have a proper television service. This is not right. The Taoiseach stated last week that something would have to be done for these people. By way of parliamentary questions, I asked whether any type of assistance will be given to people to provide an alternative and the reply was that, no, the State will not provide assistance. These people will be left behind when it comes to a television service, which is not right.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Thank you, Deputy. I ask the Taoiseach to reply with regard to legislation.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy's first question concerned the health (amendment) Bill. The Minister of State, Deputy Shortall, with the Minister for Health, is working on that. It was considered by Cabinet yesterday and it will be next session.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

That is what I heard.

The Taoiseach

In respect of the consumer Bill, which the Deputy raised in regard to the changeover to Saorview, the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources is well aware there are a small number of pockets and locations around the country where there are difficulties. The Minister will respond in the best way possible so those people have access to their television channels and can see the Deputy's good self in full flight on the issues that are important to them in those locations. I have no doubt he will avail of that opportunity when the screens click into vision.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Without poaching Deputy Healy-Rae's area, that health (amendment) Bill could be very useful to poor old Deputy Martin, who is in hot pursuit of health issues at the moment. It will visit the issues that have been endemic in terms of failure in the past number of years.

With regard to the human rights and equality commission Bill, which is promised and which is to merge two agencies, have the heads been discussed at Cabinet and when is it likely to come before the House? Similarly, what is the position of the criminal justice (proceeds of crime) Bill? This becomes more relevant with the passage of time but that passage of time would also seem to indicate it is imperative to bring forward this Bill at the earliest possible time. Have the heads been discussed and when is it likely to come before the House?

The Taoiseach

The human rights Bill is later this year. I do not have a date for the proceeds of crime Bill because discussions are ongoing with the CAB about how best to structure it.