Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 13 Nov 2012

Vol. 782 No. 3

Leaders' Questions

Deputy Micheál Martin

First, I welcome the decision of the Irish people to support the children's referendum last week and to insert the proposed clause into the Constitution.

That decision was stained somewhat by the stark and blunt judgment of the Supreme Court when it essentially made it clear that the Government not only dismissed the McKenna judgment but was in breach of the Constitution in carrying out its own promotional campaign on the amendment. The Supreme Court was clear that there was a misstatement contained in the material produced by the Government as well as, "extensive passages in the booklet and on the website which do not conform to the McKenna" judgement, where "it was held that the Government in expending public moneys in the promotion of a particular result in a Referendum process was in breach of the Constitution.", and that the Government "acted wrongfully in expending or arranging to expend public moneys on the website, booklet and advertisements in relation to the Referendum on the Thirty First Amendment of the Constitution (Children) Bill, 2012, ...".

For some reason, the Government obviously decided to formulate its own information and advocacy campaign parallel to the information campaign of the Referendum Commission and, presumably for its own political purposes, to use some of the taxpayers' money to advance its own situation. This is despite the fact that Mr. Justice Kevin Feeney, following his report on the referendum campaign on the fiscal treaty, stated that research found that dual campaigns cause problems and confusion. The Government had that report for quite some time and took a long time to release it. That should have been a warning sign to the Government not to go down the route on which it subsequently decided. In essence, what seems to have happened is that the Referendum Commission had its funding pulled back, the Government took a tranche of that funding and used it to produce its own materials. Others are suggesting that, because the Government was annoyed at the work of Mr. Justice McMahon on the Oireachtas public inquiries referendum, the Government decided it had to run its own campaign-----

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Pull the other one.

Deputy Micheál Martin

-----and that it could not trust the Referendum Commission anymore. Did someone say something?

An Ceann Comhairle

We are over time. Do not mind that.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I want to ask the Taoiseach some questions on this. Obviously, the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Fitzgerald, took a calculated decision to proceed on this route of a Government campaign separate from that of the Referendum Commission. Will the Taoiseach outline why that decision was taken?

Did the Attorney General examine all of the information that was contained in the booklet and on the website prior to circulation? The Ministers, Deputies Varadkar and Fitzgerald, laid the blame on the Attorney General, and Deputy Walsh of Fine Gael went very far this morning when he stated that if the Attorney General played an active role in the final sign-off, then she would have to consider her position. If Government Deputies are saying this, it needs a response from the Taoiseach on the origin and sequence of events that led to this.

Deputy Finian McGrath

If that was a Fianna Fáil Attorney General, they would be looking for her head.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

And Deputy Finian McGrath would give it.

The Taoiseach

First, I am happy that the people made a clear decision in endorsing the referendum proposal to give children recognition and protection in the people's Constitution, Bunreacht na hÉireann. It also falls to me to thank all the parties in the House for their contributions to the campaign. I thank the advocacy groups who spoke out and who campaigned for this. Most importantly, I thank the people who went out and voted, and clearly and specifically, those who gave a clear majority verdict in respect of this.

The McKenna judgment has been around for more than 17 years, with a second appraisal in 1995. No court has ever set out specifically what are the parameters, confines and meaning of the McKenna judgment.

The Government, in so far as putting this question to the people was concerned, followed a call more than 20 years ago by Mrs Justice Catherine McGuinness that the Constitution be amended. There have been all the different attempts over the years. Inside 18 months, we have put four questions to the people, including this one which has been endorsed.

The Government set out to uphold the principles that apply in this and the Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald, followed a clear line in dealing with the requirement to have information given to people and to deal with misinformation. After all, there were groups stating that there would be compulsory vaccination of children and the State might step in and prevent parents from bringing their children to Mass if that was their wish. There was a great deal of misinformation going around on this matter.

Deputy Martin will be aware that the High Court gave a clear 11-page judgment on the information in respect of the website, advertising and booklet, and what the Government was doing. Clearly, on 8 November, when the Supreme Court made its decision, the Government responded immediately, in fully accepting its decision and in acting accordingly.

It is important that we do not prejudice or comment unduly on the reasons the Supreme Court gave its judgment in the way it did. The Supreme Court has produced a preliminary judgment. It is important for Deputy Martin and everybody else to await the detail which will be outlined in the Supreme Court judgment in December and that the House reflect on that taking into account the background to this, the McKenna judgment, the question for future referenda and what, in respect of the people's Constitution, we as the Oireachtas should do for the future.

The bottom line here is that the people have changed the Constitution. They have gone out and voted by a clear majority to give children protection and recognition in the Constitution and the Government will now move on to introduce the necessary supplementary legislation to give effect to that and to change forever the nature of the way children were treated in this country. This amendment is for the benefit of society, in particular, children, those in vulnerable situations and those in the limbo land of foster care where a minority have no prospect of adoption. In that sense, I want to wait until I see the detail of the Supreme Court's analysis. The court is entitled to that, without deference or speculation, idle or otherwise, about the reasons it gave its judgment of the nature and in the way it did.

Deputy Micheál Martin

There is no speculation. There is no one adding any reasons. It is merely what was stated by the Supreme Court, that the Government was wrong and was in breach of the Constitution. Does the Taoiseach not get that?

Deputy Frances Fitzgerald

It is preliminary.

Deputy Micheál Martin

We do not have to wait for a month.

Deputy Alan Shatter

It is a preliminary ruling.

Deputy Finian McGrath

Deputy Shatter does not get it.

Deputy Micheál Martin

This is the decision of the Supreme Court. I am somewhat concerned by the equivocal response of some of the Ministers, particularly the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, suggesting, of course by innuendo, that the High Court is nearly as good as the Supreme Court, that the High Court said one thing, the Supreme Court said another, and we are very reasonable people in the middle.

An Ceann Comhairle

Could we have a question, please, Deputy?

Deputy Micheál Martin

We in Fianna Fáil would not have the same intellect as Deputy Shatter, by any means, to put ourselves in the place of the Supreme Court.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

The first part of that sentence is correct.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Nor would we ever attempt to second-guess the Supreme Court.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy to pose his question.

Deputy Micheál Martin

That is for members of Fine Gael who are either in the Law Library or in government. Every now and again a bit of contrition would do no harm.

Deputy Derek Nolan

Deputy Martin will have to say a lot of prayers, if that is the case.

Deputy Micheál Martin

When the Constitution is broken by a Government, it is a very serious matter. It is a very profound issue, in fact. People were annoyed before the poll. The serious question is why we had to risk the referendum with something that was not necessary at all. The Referendum Commission system is actually working and has worked well in previous referendums, despite the Government's annoyance with the Oireachtas inquiries outcome, which was not justified at all. By and large it has worked.

An Ceann Comhairle

Thank you, Deputy, you have put your question.

Deputy Micheál Martin

People trust the Referendum Commission and the independent judges who chair it in terms of imparting objective material.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

They do not trust the Government.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Could we not resolve from now on, once and for all, that Governments do not get involved in that final phase of the campaign, in terms of trying to advocate a position using taxpayers' money? The McKenna judgment made it very clear and the Supreme Court has said that the Government was wrong. The Taoiseach should say "sorry" to the people because his Government got this one wrong. He should also make sure that in the future there is one, strong, objective information campaign put forward by the Referendum Commission. It should not be done by Government. It is up to the political parties to argue the toss between themselves and those who are for or against the question under debate.

Deputy Finian McGrath

The Taoiseach should apologise.

The Taoiseach

In his original question, Deputy Martin used the phrases "for political purposes" and suggested that the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Fitzgerald, had a political agenda and was following a particular line on this matter. He also said that perhaps it was something to do with Judge McMahon and the way he had handled a previous matter.

Deputy Micheál Martin

That is what some people are speculating.

The Taoiseach

That is absolutely irrelevant because there was no political agenda involved in this and it had nothing to do with Mr. Justice McMahon. As I have said already, we acted in good faith and wished to uphold the principles that apply here. Clearly, numerous surveys have shown that people wanted more information.

I have listened to all of the vox-pops and to the avalanche of cynicism about this but the fundamental issue is that a clear majority of people took the time to go out to vote for the referendum proposal which changes the treatment of children in the future. This issue has been debated for over 20 years but within 18 months this Government put the question and it has been answered very clearly. It is far more important than Deputy Martin is allowing. He should wait for the final, comprehensive reasons in the full judgment of the Supreme Court. What we have now is the court's preliminary judgment. It does not, for instance, spell out the paragraphs that are at issue in its decision.

Deputy Micheál Martin

We are not going to influence that, though. Anything I say will not influence the judgment of the Supreme Court. I hope the Government accepts that.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

We do.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I am glad Deputy Rabbitte accepts it but the Taoiseach is suggesting otherwise.

The Taoiseach

It is absolutely critical that we do not interfere with the Supreme Court in making its decision and with the reasons for that decision. We should show the court due deference and allow it to produce its comprehensive, detailed judgment, due for publication early in December.

Deputy Micheál Martin

We are going to do that. We are not interfering with that process.

The Taoiseach

I await that judgment with interest. The Deputy is pre-judging. A great deal of misinformation has been put about.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Yes, from the Government side.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Government had to correct a statement on its own website.

The Taoiseach

I looked, for instance, at a leaflet that went around Limerick which reads "Now is not the time for property taxes" and "why we are supporting the children's referendum".

Deputy Mattie McGrath

What about the Government's leaflet?

The Taoiseach

These things cause confusion in people's minds.

An Ceann Comhairle

I thank the Taoiseach. He knows the rules.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

It was the Government that created the confusion. It is not even sorry about that.

The Taoiseach

We will move on from this. The judgment is very clear. Children have a new status in the Constitution and we will move on from that.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

There will be no apology.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Dúirt Thomas Davis uair éigin: "Tabhair oideachas dóibh agus tugann tú saoirse dóibh." Tá na focail seo chomh oiriúnach inniu agus a bhí siad. An aontaíonn an Taoiseach le seo? Students and their families are facing significant financial hardship due to the failure of Student Universal Support Ireland, SUSI, to process properly student grant applications. This morning, at the insistence of Teachta Jonathan O'Brien, the head of the City of Dublin Vocational Education Committee, CDVEC, was before the Joint Committee on Education and Social Protection and claimed that the system is working. This refusal to acknowledge the crisis is insulting to students and their families. Does the Taoiseach agree with this assessment?

An e-mail from one student who is still being assessed by SUSI reflects the frustration and anger of many. He writes: "Anyway, it is irrelevant now. I'm leaving the education system. I'm leaving a course I thoroughly enjoyed. I'm leaving my goals and dreams. I will most likely be leaving Ireland very soon." Emigration is not a solution and plainly it is not a lifestyle choice. In a real republic, access to education should be the entitlement of all citizens. It should not be conditional on one's family income. This young citizen's plight is an indictment of this Government.

Does the Taoiseach accept that there is a crisis and that it is totally unacceptable that, as of yesterday, only 18,000 out of 66,000 applications to SUSI have been processed? Does he also accept that the Department of Education and Skills has mismanaged this entire process and failed to provide adequate resources to ensure that SUSI can do its job?

The Taoiseach

I agree with Deputy Adams that this is an unacceptable position. This is the official position of both the Minister for Education and Skills and the Government. The Minister has already written to the CDVEC, which won the tender for this service, and instructed it to increase the personnel numbers to deal with the backlog. We have had similar issues before when various new structures were set up which were intended to deal with this professionally, competently and efficiently. Clearly, there are serious teething problems with this service. As I understand it, as of Monday, 12 November, the situation regarding the 66,000 applications is as follows: 20,000 are now complete and have been awarded, provisionally awarded or refused. Of the 8,000 grants awarded 3,010 have been paid into bank accounts, with approximately 5,000 awaiting bank details from students. Approximately 2,500 grants have been provisionally awarded, pending final confirmation of attendance from students, while 9,600 applications were refused or cancelled. SUSI is still awaiting documentation on almost 21,000 applications. Of these, 15,000 applicants have provided no documentation whatsoever and SUSI does not expect them ever to complete their applications. It is not, therefore, all one-sided. SUSI has 26,000 applications for processing at present and has a target of 5,030 decisions to be made on applications over the next week. If these targets are met, all successful applicants will receive their grants by the end of September.

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach

In order to help with that, SUSI has received ten additional temporary staff from the Public Appointments Service, who will come on board on Monday.

Deputy Jonathan O'Brien

Is that September of next year?

The Taoiseach

The processing of documentation is outsourced to Abtran, which is located in Cork. It has appointed 20 additional staff to accelerate the process. I admit that the situation is not acceptable. I hope that, following the Oireachtas committee meeting and the communication from the Minister, the increase in staff numbers will make a big impact shortly.

I would not like to see the student mentioned by Deputy Adams leave Ireland, although that is obviously his or her own choice.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

It is not a choice. That is the point.

The Taoiseach

I do not know which college the e-mail refers to but clearly, notwithstanding the rules and regulations, the college authorities could allow that student to continue with his or her course until such time as final grant approval arrives.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Cuirim fáilte roimh an fhreagra a thug an Taoiseach, mar admhaíonn sé go bhfuil crisis ann. I welcome the Taoiseach's acceptance that there is a crisis. However, he said that the majority of the students will receive their grants by September.

The Taoiseach

I meant to say December.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Okay, that is fair enough. He also said that he regrets the student having to leave. Let me just quote another section from his e-mail:

I was one of the first to apply to the system in June and despite sending back documents as early as possible, I still await an answer. My dream is over. My goal of education and self-improvement is over. My life of poverty, as it has been for the last few weeks, is just not a viable option any more.

It is not fair to say that this is his choice. This is clearly a person who wants to stay here.

He wants to be educated and to contribute to this State and the people of this island.

This issue should be seen in the context of the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Quinn, signing the USI pledge during the election to oppose and campaign against any new form of third level fees. Within nine months, the registration charge was hiked by €250 and it is now set to increase further. It is not a surprise that we have this mess.

An Ceann Comhairle

A question, please.

Deputy Gerry Adams

I welcome that the Taoiseach does not find this acceptable but the head of the body charged with processing these grants stated today that the system is working. As the system is patently not working, will the Taoiseach, in addition to ensuring sufficient resources are provided, ask the Minister, Deputy Quinn, to contact the Higher Education Authority to ensure the students caught up in this mess are not penalised by their universities or institutes of technology? Some students have not been allowed to access libraries and other necessary elements of the education system.

The Taoiseach

I assure Deputy Adams there is no intention of penalising students. As I noted earlier, 21,000 applications are still awaiting documentation and 15,000 applicants have not provided any documentation. Person X going through the lists for the organisation will ask "who is this student, Gerry Adams? He has sent in no further documentation."

Deputy Derek Nolan

He does nothing.

The Taoiseach

How will we contact this person? Is it a valid application?

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Who the hell is SUSI?

The Taoiseach

I acknowledge there are unacceptable delays. Can Deputy Adams tell me from the correspondence he received what college the student is attending and in what year? The Deputy might not be fully familiar with the Southern system because this has applied for 25 or 30 years.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Not to this extent.

The Taoiseach

When Deputies were dealing with county councils and VECs the same problem arose. If these grants can be paid before December it will be a major improvement on what applied for many years, when students and their families had to go through the same process, for a variety of reasons, one after the other. I need to learn from Deputy Adams - he can give me the information afterwards if he so wishes - the college that the student is attending and the year in which he is enrolled. I can guarantee that the college authorities are fully entitled in not penalising that student to allow him to continue the course until everything is regularised.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

He does not have the grant.

The Taoiseach

I hope that next year the lessons learned from this year will result in a vastly improved position for all students who will not be penalised and will be able to get their grant assistance on time and in a way that allows them to plan their semesters.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

I remind Deputy Mattie McGrath it is nearly 4 p.m. and a stunt has not yet been pulled.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

While the merry-go-round of futile EU summits that continue to yield nothing and the hot air about recovery and reform spews out of this building-----

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

The Deputy should open a window over there.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

-----ordinary, innocent people are being crushed by the austerity the Government and the troika are imposing. The latest victims of this austerity are young people and students who are being driven into poverty and despair. Thousands of students who desperately need grants to survive in third level education remain without them.

Deputy Simon Harris

Deputy Boyd Barrett never needed one.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

They are unable to pay the registration fees which the Government is ratcheting up every year, access hardship funds or pay rent. Many of them are now being forced to make a choice between paying their rent and paying for food.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

What would Deputy Boyd Barrett know about hardship?

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Last week, I attended a meeting with USI, at which we were told about a student whose breakfasts, lunches and dinners for the week were one packet of pasta and a bottle of tomato ketchup. That is outrageous. If the students manage to survive through college, they will be faced with unemployment and emigration when they finish. Will the Taoiseach admit this crisis for the young people and students who are the future of this country is not an administrative hiccup? It is the result of his so-called reform of the public service, cuts in staffing and resources and the centralisation of the applications process. Just as we saw a litany of refusals and a backlog of appeals for the domiciliary care allowance and social welfare applications, we now see the same crisis being visited on desperate students. Anybody who wants support and assistance from the State is being denied or left on waiting lists for months. Will the Taoiseach provide the staff and resources required to deal with this crisis? Will he commit to reversing the cuts in students' grants? Will he stop the constant ratcheting up of the registration fees which are already unaffordable for many? Will he allow students the opportunity to study and contribute to our society, an opportunity he is denying many of them at present?

The Taoiseach

The Deputy did not make his case as succinctly as Deputy Adams nor did he listen to the answer I gave to the latter.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

I listened but there was nothing in it.

The Taoiseach

Some 40% of the documents received from students are incomplete. They cannot be processed if they are not complete. The Deputy understands that as well as everybody else. This has gone on for 25 years. Previously 66 processing authorities dealt with applications for third level assistance but now there is one. I recognise there are teething problems and agree they are not acceptable. The Minister for Education and Skills wrote on two occasions to all the third level institutions to ask them to ensure students are not prevented from sitting examinations, are allowed full access to libraries and other facilities and are not discriminated against because of delays that are not their fault although, as I noted, 40% of returned documents are incomplete. The Minister has already outlined the position on registration fees and the road ahead in that regard.

Some 40 extra staff will be in place at the student universal support Ireland scheme. A further ten are starting on Monday and 20 additional staff have been appointed by Abtran to process the applications in an outsourced way. I hope that makes a big difference. The college authorities can confirm that individual students will not be discriminated against in regard to libraries and other facilities or in sitting their examinations while their applications are being processed.

When this system is running smoothly - please God we will see an enormous difference next year------

Deputy Mattie McGrath

What about now?

The Taoiseach

-----instead of paying out grants in March or April, as I have found to be the case with many constituents over the years, there will be a process to pay them at the end of the first semester. That will make an enormous improvement from a professional competence point of view and for students and their livelihoods.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Does the Taoiseach think the students who are taking to the streets to protest in Cork or are mobilising in colleges across the country are making it up? They are in a desperate situation because of the inadequacy of grants, student poverty and now the crisis in the processing of their inadequate grants. Does the Taoiseach acknowledge on any level this is connected to the so-called reform of the public service? This pattern has been repeated in applications for medical cards and the domiciliary care allowance. Whenever citizens seek support and assistance from the State they are faced with the same refusals and backlogs of appeals. It is because of inadequate staffing and resources and the centralisation of this process. It is not working.

He can dress it up as reform, but in reality it is cuts. It is not working and is plunging students into a desperate and unsustainable situation. The Government should provide the resources and the funds.

An Ceann Comhairle

We are on Leaders' Questions. The Deputy should ask his question.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

I ask the Taoiseach to address the issue of student poverty as a result of inadequate grants and the racheting up of registration fees.

The Taoiseach

As I said, the Deputy can appreciate that the decision taken by the Government was to streamline the process by which third level grants are received, processed and paid out. That was so that they would be done earlier and more efficiently, and to ensure monthly payments would be made to students' accounts. Prior to this, there were 66 processing organisations - the local authorities and the VECs.

Deputy Joe Higgins

SUSI is a disaster.

The Taoiseach

As the Deputy will recall, for many years before he came into the Oireachtas, a league table was published each year indicating which local authorities and VECs were in front with their payments. Now, at least, we have one central authority. I agree that it has had initial teething problems, but these are being rectified with the addition of 40 extra staff. I hope the lesson learned is that while it is necessary to have adequate staff, it is also necessary for applications to be as complete as possible. We should not have a situation in which 40% are incomplete and cannot be concluded.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

So it is the students' fault.

The Taoiseach

The intention - and this will happen - is that applications will be processed earlier and far more efficiently, and monthly payments will be made into the students' accounts. This will all be done by the end of December. This will be a massive improvement from having to wait until March or April, as applied for the past 25 years.