Vol. 785 No. 5
51. Deputy Niall Collins asked the Minister for Justice and Equality his plans for the closure of Garda stations in 2013; his plans for Garda recruitment; his plans for the total number of Gardaí in 2013, 2014 and 2015; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [55542/12]
The policing plan for 2013, which I laid before the House last week, outlines the Garda Commissioner's proposals for the continued reorganisation and consolidation of the Garda station and district network. Until this year, the Garda station network was essentially the same as the RIC network which obtained in 1922. Such a large-scale static deployment of resources is no longer appropriate, particularly as the transport and communications infrastructure has been transformed. The Garda Síochána has a class-leading police computer system, a state-of-the-art digital radio system and a transport fleet which is currently receiving significant investment. The new Garda roster being piloted at present provides a better match between Garda availability and policing demand. All of these developments enable the Garda Síochána to be more mobile and flexible and to deliver a more effective policing service.
We must be honest about the level of policing service that was capable of being provided from the stations that were and are to be closed. Of the 100 stations to be closed next year, 98% are open only on a part-time basis, 94% are open for three hours a day or less, 88% are served by 1 garda and only 5% are served by three or more Garda personnel. Of the 39 stations closed this year, eight were not actually open at all and had been surreptitiously closed under the watch of previous Governments. Their closure was a paper exercise which simply recognised reality. Following the closures in 2013, there will still be 564 Garda stations in the State. This will still be significantly more per capita than is the case in comparable jurisdictions, such as Northern Ireland, where there are 86 stations for a population of 1.5 million, and Scotland, where there are approximately 340 stations for a population of 5.2 million.
Some critics have complained that the station closures will save only small amounts of money, but this completely misses the point. The point is to make the best use of our well-trained gardaí and, in particular, to maximise the amount of time they spend performing operational duties. The Garda Commissioner, in his professional judgment, has concluded that a more effective and efficient policing service can be provided through the proposals to close these stations and to merge 28 Garda districts into 14. These proposals, along with the other proposal to close the public counters in seven other stations at night, will free up gardaí for front-line service in the communities concerned. This is all the more important at a time of decreasing Garda numbers. It is worth recalling that it was the previous Government that undertook to reduce Garda strength to 13,000 as part of its commitment to the troika to reduce public service numbers overall. The previous Government also introduced the moratorium on public sector recruitment, the result of which has been that no trainee Garda has entered the Garda college since May 2009.
Current Garda strength is 13,450. This is supplemented by approximately 2,000 civilian support staff and 1,000 Garda reserves. I will remain in dialogue with my colleague the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform on the issue of Garda resources, but what is vital now is that the still-significant resources of the force are used with maximum efficiency and to the greatest effect. That is why the reforms being introduced by the Garda Commissioner are essential and should be supported by all Members of the House.
When they come to write the political review of the year, the Minister, Deputy Shatter will, as a result of how he disseminated this information on budget day last week, be dubbed the most cowardly Minister. It was an exceptionally cowardly act, in the middle of the busiest political day of the year, to announce the closure of up to 100 Garda stations throughout the country in the manner in which he did without affording Members any real opportunity to debate the matter in the House, other than by means of tabling parliamentary questions. That is why I tabled this priority question today. The Minister has missed the point completely. It is not a question of freeing up Garda resources and, in order that they might perform other duties, members of the force. Gardaí are already performing such duties. What is at issue here is the fact that many of the stations it is proposed to close are open only on a part-time basis. Such stations are there in order that the force might show a presence in communities, both urban and rural. People must realise that these closures do not just relate to gardaí and stations in rural areas. The presence to which I refer and the relevant Garda infrastructure are to be removed from communities. The deterrent they offer will also be removed as a result, which is regrettable.
Will the Deputy please pose a question?
This is part of a larger agenda on the part of the Government, which has done the same with small schools and community welfare offices, has closed down bank branches and is merging credit unions. Essentially, this Administration is sucking essential services out of communities throughout the country.
Will the Deputy frame a question?
It ill behoves the Minister to cite what was done by previous Governments. In 2010, when he was Opposition spokesperson on justice, the Minister stated: "We presently have 14,500 members of An Garda Síochána and it is of crucial importance that the number be maintained". He went on to state that a reduction in this number would "obstruct the battle against crime" and said "I predict that tonight drug gangs will be toasting justice minister [Ahern]". The latter will also be drinking a toast of thanks to the Minister, Deputy Shatter-----
Will the Deputy please pose a question to the Minister?
-----for reducing the presence of An Garda Síochána throughout the country. The Minister has still not indicated what will be the minimum number of gardaí on the force. That number could potentially drop below 13,000.
I must call the Minister.
Up to 1,200 members of An Garda Síochána can retire in the coming 12 months.
I must call the Minister.
It takes two years to train new members.
Deputy Collins must conclude.
I want to make a point.
No, the Deputy may not do so. There are only six minutes per priority question.
It was exceptionally cowardly of the Minister to make the announcement in this regard on budget day.
The Deputy should not try to engage in name-calling or use political bombast in order to cover up the reality that when in government, his party signed up to the agreement with the troika-----
As the Minister well knows, we did not sign up to closing Garda stations.
-----and to reducing the numbers within the Garda Síochána to 13,000 by the end of 2013. In addition, his party did not have the courage and commitment to reform the Garda station infrastructure and network. Is the Deputy seriously suggesting that it would be in the interests of good policing for us to retain a police station network and a Garda structure based on decisions relating to locations, etc., which were made by the British Government in colonial times? Is he suggesting that, at a time when Garda numbers are being reduced as a result of the financial disaster that hit this country as a consequence of the appalling decisions made by his colleagues when they were in government, we should keep trained members of the force unnecessarily behind desks in buildings when they could be out policing local communities? Does the Deputy not have the decency to acknowledge that a large number of members of the force could contribute to the provision of front-line services but are currently unable to do so because they are confined to small Garda stations? Will he acknowledge that a station that opens for three hours or less in the morning does not make any substantial contribution to law enforcement or to protecting the community?
It is about providing a presence. Does the Minister not appreciate that?
In so far as the Deputy is alleging that there will be any diminution of Garda services, I must inform him that this has not been the case in the context of the closures that have occurred to date. There will instead be an enhanced service on offer as a result of the fact that members of the force will be available to communities.
Unlike my predecessor, I have made resources available. This year, for example, I spent €4 million on the purchase of 213 new vehicles in order to upgrade the Garda fleet. Some €5 million has been allocated to me for 2013 and this will allow for the purchase of a substantial number of additional vehicles.
It was perfectly appropriate and correct that the announcements to which the Deputy refers were made on budget day, the day on which the Estimates relating to the Department of Justice and Equality were published.
On that day we were having regard to the resources available in each Department under the terms of the Estimates and how the Department of Justice and Equality - which will have €62 million less in 2013 than in 2012 - along with the Garda Síochána, was to ensure that resources were wisely used.
It ill behoves the Minister to cite the example of Northern Ireland and Scotland as a reason to support this crazy decision which he knows is wrong. He also knows that 40% of the population of this country resides outside the greater Dublin area and it is they who will be most affected by this decision. He has also closed down Garda stations in the greater Dublin area in Stepaside, Kill-O-the-Grange, Rush and Whitehall, to name but a few. He should not tell the House that this decision is to do with smarter policing. He knows full well - the Garda Commissioner has referred to it - that this is a political choice. The Minister should not attempt to hang the decision on the Garda Commissioner by saying it was contained in the draft policing plan which he presented to him. The Minister had the option to accept, amend, reject or ask for a redrafting of that plan. We know that the considerations were not financial ones. We all know the figures.
Could the Deputy ask a question, please?
The Minister's decision means he has removed the Garda presence from communities all over the country. If he thinks that is a positive policing innovation then he is completely out of touch. I reiterate that this decision had nothing to do with financial considerations. It was very cowardly of the Minister to announce these closures by way of e-mail. Why did he not come into the House where they could be debated?
We are now having a debate on the matter. I am sorry if the Deputy is so agitated and excited that he thinks it is cowardly of me to answer his questions-----
I am reflecting what communities think about it.
I think the wider community has far greater insight than the Deputy. The wider community understands a number of facts. People understand that we have an agreement with the troika on which we are dependent for public funding.-----
The closure of Garda stations is not in the agreement.
One voice, please, Deputy.
I do not interrupt the Deputy. Perhaps he would do me the-----
There is nothing in the troika agreement about closing Garda stations.
This is Question Time, Deputy Collins. The Minister has the floor.
He should be truthful in what he is saying. He should stick to the facts.
The Deputy seems to believe it adds to the credibility of what he says if he just shouts across the floor. I ask the Deputy to do me the courtesy of allowing me to respond to him. The facts are quite simple. We are dependent on the troika. The agreement was entered into by his party. It envisages a substantial reduction in public expenditure. Like all Departments, my Department is affected. The Garda Síochána is also affected. The Deputy's colleagues when in government indicated that Garda numbers would be reduced to 13,000. They took no steps of any description to reform the Garda districts, the Garda network or to ensure that well-trained members of the force were available to engage in front-line policing. What we have done with the operational advice of the Garda Commissioner and on his operational recommendation ensures that we are maximising as much as possible the professional expertise of members of the force by making them available for front-line police services, making them available to local communities-----
Closing down Garda stations is not making them available.
-----and available to work in crime protection and crime detection. We have recognised a reality which the Deputy has failed to recognise, which is, that a single garda sitting for three or four hours during a morning in a Garda station does not contribute anything of major operational value to crime protection or crime detection. With a reduction in resources and in Garda numbers, we are using the expertise of the force to the maximum benefit of the community.
It means they will be sitting in community centres instead.
52. Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn asked the Minister for Justice and Equality if he will provide an update on any internal inquiry currently being conducted following reports from a garda whistle blower (detail supplied) that a number of persons had penalty points written off; if he has met with the Garda Commissioner regarding same; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [54672/12]
The allegations referred to by the Deputy are not that some people have had penalty points written off, but that in a number of cases members of the Garda Síochána have inappropriately cancelled fixed charge notices, mainly for speeding. The allegations appear to be made on the basis of records of cancellation on the Garda PULSE system. Fixed charge notices are an alternative to prosecution. They give a motorist the opportunity to acknowledge the offence, pay the fixed charge and, where the offence is a penalty point offence, incur the appropriate penalty points. If the motorist does not pay the fixed charge, he or she will in the normal course be prosecuted for the alleged offence.
With regard to the cancellation of fixed charge notices, it appears from media reports of recent days, and comments made in Dáil Éireann, that there is an assumption that any termination of a fixed charge notice is illegal and that any individual who is the recipient of such notice which is subsequently cancelled is being afforded special treatment. Both assumptions are incorrect. I am concerned that the outcome of the investigation being conducted into the allegations is being unfairly prejudged and I would urge caution in this regard.
There can be circumstances where the fixed charge notice may be cancelled in accordance with Garda procedures drawn up in light of legislative exemptions and prosecutorial guidelines. Termination or cancellation occurs where it is believed the evidence would not sustain a prosecution or a prosecution would not be appropriate, fair or proportionate. Decisions on terminations or cancellations are governed by Garda policies and procedures, framed around the legislatorial and prosecutorial guidelines issued by the DPP.
Members of the Garda Síochána at the rank of superintendent district officer or inspector acting district officer, therefore, have discretion to authorise cancellation in appropriate circumstances of fixed charge notices. These can include situations where, for example, exemptions apply in relation to emergency vehicles; where there are evidential difficulties, such as where the registration number registered by a speed camera does not correspond to the vehicle in question; where there are emergency medical circumstances such as, for example, a medical certificate relating to the wearing of seat belts; a sick child being driven to hospital; an imminent birth; a medical professional rushing to a sick or elderly patient; a driver of an ambulance response vehicle. Access to terminate a fixed charge processing incident through PULSE is restricted to users with a rank of inspector or higher.
Additional information not given on the floor of the House
I confirm that these allegations were forwarded to my Department by the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport in September, and, subsequently, by the Department of the Taoiseach, also in September. Following consideration of the documentation the allegations were forwarded to the Commissioner last October. The Garda Commissioner has appointed an Assistant Commissioner to conduct an examination and to report on the allegations. I have received an interim report from the Commissioner, but I will not be making any comment on any of the allegations until the final report is available. These allegations are being taken seriously and are being thoroughly investigated. However, it would be premature and wrong to assume that all of these cancellations of fixed charge notices were inappropriate. I caution against any rush to judgment before all the facts are known. As the Garda Commissioner has said, this would be unfair both to members of the Garda Síochána and the motorists concerned. We must await the outcome of the investigation, which as the Commissioner has said will be both comprehensive and rigorous. I have every confidence that the investigation directed by the Commissioner into the allegations will be conducted professionally.
The Minister will agree that this is a very serious issue relating to public confidence in the Garda Síochána. I agree that a superintendent has the power to cancel penalty points on receipt of an appeal in writing which outlines the grounds why the points should not be applied. As the Minister has outlined, this is justified in some instances. However, there is no clarity for these decisions. It is also not clear whether the internal Garda report will be published. I ask the Minister to confirm that he will publish the report and that this practice will cease immediately. I note that Conor Faughnan regards this matter as very serious. The Garda Síochána needs to take it seriously and to be aware of the damage. Even if 20,000 of the 50,000 cases were found to be not in accordance with the criteria or not lawful, this would amount to €1.6 million of taxpayers' money. Perhaps the most important issue is that of public confidence. The public must know that the playing field is level for everyone, that it does not depend on status. Unless there are exceptional grounds such as those listed by the Minister in his reply, penalty points cannot be written off. The fine must be paid and the penalty points must be applied.
It is of the utmost importance that the integrity of the fixed charge system is preserved. When the Deputy said this must stop, I presume it is not his view that where there are appropriate circumstances for a fixed charge to be cancelled, that it should not be cancelled. I gave the Deputy instances of the type of circumstances that can arise. The Deputy may be interested to know that in the three and a half year period from 1 January 2009 to 30 June 2012, a total of 1,460,726 fixed charge notices were issued. The allegations I have received, when examined, apply to fewer than 300 incidents. These are allegations.
From the interim report I received, I have noted that some of the cancellations of fixed-charge notices relate to ordinary individuals who are not VIPs or other such individuals. At least one person has been very unfairly named in this House. The individuals to whom I refer are those in circumstances in which a car identified as speeding is not the actual car owned by an individual who has received a ticket. There have been other instances, including one in which a young child was being taken to hospital in an emergency.
I take allegations of this nature with the utmost seriousness, as does the Garda Commissioner, who has appointed an assistant commissioner to conduct an investigation and report on the allegations. My Department received the allegations last September and they were referred to the Garda Commissioner in October after they had been considered. I have received an interim report from the Commissioner, but I will not be making any comment on any of the allegations until the final report is available. These allegations are being taken seriously and investigated thoroughly, but it would be premature and wrong to assume that all cancellations of fixed-charge notices were inappropriate. I would caution against any rush to judgment before we know all of the facts. As the Garda Commissioner has said, this would be unfair to both members of the Garda Síochána and the motorists concerned. I urge Deputies to await the outcome of the investigation that is under way. When the outcome of the investigation is known, I will bring it to the attention of Members.
In so far as there is any suggestion that the Garda is not doing its job properly in regard to speeding, fixed-charge notices and the road traffic legislation, Members should note the interesting statistics on total annual road fatalities between January and the end of November in each of a number of given years. At the end of November 2007 there had been 300 fatalities on the roads. At the end of November 2011 there had been 168, and at the end of November 2012 - this year - there had been 152. One hundred and fifty-two people too many lost their lives on our roads this year, but the decreasing number of fatalities indicates that the Garda takes very seriously the application of the road traffic regulations to individuals. The vast majority of individuals are aware of this, and the vast majority of those who receive a fixed-charge notice pay the fine. However, we must preserve a system in which there is a basis for cancelling notices where they are issued inappropriately or disproportionately or where a mistake is made whereby the wrong individual receives a notice.
Everybody agrees that there ought to be an arrangement for exceptional circumstances. I am asking whether the Minister is seriously suggesting there are just 300 questionable cases, not 50,000, that must be examined. Regardless of the percentage, 50,000 represents a high volume of cases, which needs to be considered. I would like to have heard from the Garda Commissioner prior to the process. There is a paper trail with 50,000 written appeals in line with the guidelines and criteria. The Minister's statement that he has every confidence that there are only a few questionable cases is not in accord with what we are hearing. This is a very serious matter. We need to end the arrangement whereby one can make a telephone call to have one's details removed from the computer. From now on, we need clear written criteria that will apply on a case-by-case basis and in which every citizen can have confidence.
The points system, including the option of paying an €80 fine, has saved considerable court time and prevented considerable expenditure. It has the confidence of the public. The problem that has arisen is serious and could undermine the system. The Minister must move swiftly to deal with the issue.
When will the report by the assistant commissioner be completed? When will the Minister bring it before the House and make the recommendations? When will the disciplinary measures be taken, if necessary?
The individual who has made complaints in this area has made a calculation of the alleged total number of fixed-charge notices cancelled. The calculation, as furnished in the allegation I saw, gave rise to an assumption that every single cancellation was inappropriate and due to some inside influence. Let me make it very clear that on my watch as Minister for Justice and Equality I will not accept the preferential treatment of any individual. I want every individual to be treated fairly under the law and to have his good name protected in circumstances in which there is no wrongdoing. As I said to the Deputy, there is an assumption that if a fixed-charge notice is cancelled, there has been wrongdoing. This is not the case. There are strict guidelines, to which I made reference in my reply. It is important that the guidelines be adhered to. In that context, it is important that the investigation that is under way be comprehensive and completed fully, and that the full story, rather than a story based on an assumption, become known. It should not be assumed once a fixed-charge notice is cancelled that there has been some wrongdoing, because that is not the case. If it turns out that there has been wrongdoing, so be it. There should be transparency in this regard and I have no difficulty with it; I am merely asking Deputies to be cautious in what they say until we see the outcome of the investigation. I expect to have the outcome early in the new year. We all have information with some individuals named therein. I ask Deputies to desist from naming individuals or attempting to name them in this House or outside it on the assumption that the individuals have been guilty of some wrongdoing. If one has truly been given names of individuals, one will know that some of the fixed charges that have been cancelled relate to individuals who are not celebrities or others known to the media. They are probably not known to the people who received the information. Some are individuals who wrote genuinely to the Garda authorities having received a fixed-charge ticket. They may have explained their circumstances or raised an objection which, having been examined by the Garda authorities, was regarded as valid.
There should be transparency. The public must be reassured that the fixed-charge notice system applies without fear or favour to everybody in the State, regardless of who he is, the position he holds, the job he does or whether he is known. Should it appear that there are procedural arrangements that need to be tightened up or that a different approach needs to be taken, I assure the House that I will communicate my view thereon to the Garda Commissioner. In the meantime, the Garda Commissioner must be allowed to facilitate the assistant commissioner who is investigating these matters to complete the investigation.
I asked whether the Minister will publish the report.
I believe the Minister dealt with that.
I said to the Deputy that I will publish the outcome of the investigation that is under way.
I understood that.
53. Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan asked the Minister for Justice and Equality if his attention has been drawn to the disparities between the Inspector of Prisons' report on St. Patrick's Institution, Dublin and the Visiting Committee Report of 2010; the location at which it is planned to accommodate 18 to 21 year olds, who would currently be residing in St. Patrick's Institution (detail supplied), after 2014; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [54640/12]
The Deputy will know that for many years I expressed concerns about St. Patrick's Institution and believed it was an inappropriate facility for children. I was instrumental in ensuring that the programme for Government included a specific commitment to end the practice of sending children there. I visited St. Patrick's within two weeks of my appointment and I met the Inspector of Prisons at his request in early May last to discuss the matter with him.
I published the St. Patrick's visiting committee report for 2010 on 18 November 2011. As stated in its report for that year, the committee had met monthly and carried out some 48 random unannounced visits during the year. In that context, it reported on a number of issues and developments generally within the prison relating to accommodation, kitchen and gymnasium facilities, staffing, education, the library, workshops and facilities generally.
The inspector's report, which I published last October, raised serious issues and major concerns, including weak management, the behaviour of some prison staff, the culture in the prison, the inattention to human rights norms, prisoners on protection and the prevalence of drugs. The inspector concluded that there has been a culture in St Patrick's which resulted in the human rights of some prisoners - children and young adults - being either ignored or violated. The inspector also reported that the visiting committee appears to be carrying out its mandate under the relevant legislation and that its chairman had raised a number of issues with him.
An action plan is now in place implementing all of the inspector's recommendations, with more than 80% of the recommendations having been implemented to date.
I have yet to publish the visiting committee's annual report for 2011. In light of the inspector's report, I asked if the committee would consider the issues raised by the inspector and whether it would wish to comment on its contents in the context of its report for 2011. I will publish its report when I receive its response.
As the Deputy is aware, the Government committed in the programme for Government to ending the practice of sending children to St. Patrick's Institution. The practice of sending 16-year-old boys to St. Patrick’s ceased on 1 May 2012. From that date, all newly remanded or sentenced 16 year olds have been detained in the child detention facilities at Oberstown, Lusk, County Dublin. The detention of children at St. Patrick’s Institution will end with the provision of more appropriate accommodation and regimes in the new detention facility at Oberstown by mid-2014. Last week, the Government allocated €20.4 million in capital funding for 2013 to the Department of Children and Youth Affairs to enable this project to proceed.
Additional information not given on the floor of the House
In the interim, the Irish Prison Service is devising a specific strategy for the management of young offenders, working with its partners and other agencies to ensure that the regime for young offenders is age-appropriate and that best practice is observed. Central to this strategy is enhanced co-operation with the Irish Youth Justice Service, including the placement of a number of care staff from the child detention school to work alongside prison staff in St Patrick's. It is intended that this will take place in mid-January 2013. In addition, the feasibility of accommodating some categories of the 17-year-old age group in the child detention schools before mid-2014 is being actively examined.
As part of this strategy, the prison service will also review the overall approach taken to the placement of 18 to 21 year olds, in line with my intention to introduce primary legislation for the purpose of closing St. Patrick's Institution as a detention centre for persons aged 21 and under.
The positive message from the Minister's reply is that he acknowledges what other reports, including the Whitaker report and the reports of the Ombudsman for Children, prison chaplains and the Jesuit Centre for Faith and Justice, have highlighted since 1985, namely, that there is an appalling breach of the human rights of young people in St. Patrick's. What is the long-term plan to provide for those under the age of 21 there, of whom there are currently approximately 160, including 14 who are young women? International best practice indicates that those under 21 should not be detained in the same prisons as adults. The need for the immediate publication of reports has been highlighted and there should be no delay in their publication. That is my first point - that reports should be published in a timely way. My other question is whether the reports will go directly to the Oireachtas. There is an acknowledgement of wrongdoing on the part of the personnel in St. Patrick's, but there are also questions to be answered by the Department of Justice and Equality and the Irish Prison Service.
It is my intention to introduce legislation, which is also referenced in the programme for Government, under which the visiting committee reports will be submitted directly to the Inspector of Prisons, and if members of visiting committees have concerns about any institution they visit during a year they will have direct contact with the Inspector of Prisons. Under the new legislation, it will be the inspector who publishes the visiting committee reports and engages in any follow-up that may be necessary.
A review group is currently reviewing prison policy issues. As the Deputy will be aware, the construction of a new wing of the Midlands Prison is being completed and there are plans to build a new prison in Cork. When the new wing of the Midlands Prison is open and the new facility is constructed in Oberstown, I intend to take steps to bring about further reform in respect of the 18 to 21 year olds at St. Patrick's Institution, how they are dealt with and where they will be located. There is an issue as to whether we should be locating all 18 to 21 year olds in one facility. I have concerns about the need for additional facilities for young people who are in prison in order that we do the maximum possible to encourage them to desist from reoffending when released from prison.
We have made enormous strides in the past 18 months in this area. It is very much a work in progress. Issues have been neglected for many years and they cannot all be addressed in 18 to 20 months, but we are making enormous progress. I believe that by the time the Government has completed its term we will have an entirely different prison policy and a different approach to dealing with young people who have to serve sentences.
I represent Dublin Central and we know about the revolving door syndrome and the incidence of repeat offences. We should be all on the same wavelength in encouraging rehabilitation and ensuring conditions in prison facilitate it rather than hinder it. Will the Minister engage with those civil society organisations who are involved in the prison and speak with former prisoners to get their views on this? The Minister mentioned the establishment of a comprehensive complaints system and I believe he suggested 2015 in that context, but in the meantime, we do not want to lose the generation of young people who are in St. Patrick's.
New arrangements have already been established with regard to a complaints system. On the question of meeting former prisoners, in the preparation of his report on St. Patrick's Institution, the Inspector of Prisons not only visited the prison at various unexpected times of the day and night, including at weekends, but went to the trouble of meeting former prisoners from St. Patrick's Institution. The important and detailed report he produced was the result of 14 to 16 months of focused work and engagement by him. We should be grateful to him for the important work he has done. We rapidly set up an action plan to ensure that all issues addressed by him and all the recommendations made by him would be fully implemented, and that is the road we are travelling.
54. Deputy Niall Collins asked the Minister for Justice and Equality the steps being taken to address the increase in gangland crime and murders over the past number of months; if his attention has been drawn to a recent United States Congressional Research Service report entitled Terrorism and Transnational Crime: Foreign Policy Issues for Congress, in which it cited US Department of Homeland Security authorities which found that the production, smuggling and sale of tobacco products, including genuine and counterfeit cigarettes, is a lucrative form of financing for organised crime as well as terrorist groups (details supplied): if he is satisfied that Garda resources are being adequately deployed to tackle this source of income for dissident republicans as part of their efforts to tackle gangland crime; if he has discussed the issue with the Revenue Commissioners and the Department of Finance; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [55543/12]
I remain in ongoing contact with the Garda Commissioner about all aspects of serious crime and I can assure the House that the Garda authorities will continue to bear down heavily on the activities of those involved in gangland crime, including criminal terrorists.
I am aware of the US report to which the Deputy refers, and it confirms our long-standing knowledge of the involvement of terrorist groups in organised crime. It is clear that the paramilitary groups that wish to undermine the peaceful intent of the majority of people on this island have inextricable links to organised crime. Many of their activities, including drug smuggling, tobacco and fuel fraud and extortion, are plain, unvarnished criminality. Whatever veneer of patriotism these gangs of criminal terrorists may wish to employ, the fact is that organised crime is organised crime and they are up to their necks in it.
The only effective way to combat organised crime is by disrupting and prosecuting those involved in its operations, especially the drugs trade, which is at the heart of much of its profits. As the Deputy will know, extensive Garda operations have been launched against gangs and there have been significant drug seizures in recent months and weeks. These have included a major programme of more than 200 searches which were carried out nationwide under Operation Wireless, resulting in the seizure of a substantial amount of drugs and more than 100 arrests. Overall, the Garda Síochána seized drugs of an estimated value of €65.5 million in 2011, with drug seizures estimated at €90.4 million for the first nine months of this year.
Equally, the Deputy will be aware that the Garda Síochána has launched a series of sustained operations against the activities of criminal terrorists in so-called dissident republican organisations. As a number of people are facing charges in this regard, the House will appreciate why I cannot be more specific.
I am also advised by the Revenue Commissioners, which has the lead role in combating tobacco fraud, that in the period from January to October this year a total of 91 million cigarettes and almost 4,000 kg of tobacco were seized. In addition, during that period there were more than 100 convictions for smuggling or selling of illicit tobacco products.
Additional information not given on the floor of the House
Although we should not underestimate the difficulties the Garda authorities face in trying to prevent these criminal enterprises and in bringing their perpetrators to justice, I can assure the House that the Garda is determined, in co-operation with the PSNI and other relevant agencies, including the Criminal Assets Bureau and the Customs Service, to tackle robustly the activities of these criminal terrorists and the organised crime gangs with which they are inextricably linked.
When the Garda Commissioner appeared before the Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality recently, as the Minister will be aware, he outlined up to 25 criminal organisations operating in the State which are part of an organised crime network and gangland activities. It is mind-boggling to think that up to €860 million is being lost to the Exchequer by way of the illegal tobacco trade, fuel laundering, counterfeit goods, digital piracy and counterfeit medicines, apart from the illegal drugs trade, which is wreaking havoc in many communities throughout the country. People have asked me and others whether the State is beginning to lose the battle against these gangland criminals who are operating in Dublin and right across the country.
Linked to that, the Minister needs to nail his colours to the mast in stating what will be the minimum number of members of An Garda Síochána in terms of the strength of the force.
How low will the Minister allow the numbers in the force to drop to before he states that is the minimum and that the force needs to be properly resourced by way of personnel? People are, rightly, pointing out to me and others that the Minister engaged in a recruitment campaign for the Defence Forces which resulted in the recent recruitment of 600 personnel. While it is not fair to compare a member of An Garda Síochána and a member of the Defence Forces on a one-for-one basis as they provide different services, how are we to win the war against gangland crime and avoid gangland related murders?
We are seeing murders in broad daylight in the presence of minors and children nearly every day. These started well before the murder of Alan Ryan with the murder of Declan O'Reilly and other tit-for-tat murders, as well as the murder of the Northern Ireland prison officer David Black and last week's murder. The Minister has cited several operations in which An Garda Síochána is engaged which have enjoyed a large degree of success. By how much does the number of personnel in the force have to be watered down before the Minister recognises the need to recruit new members? Will he recognise that up to 1,200 gardaí could retire in the next year and that it will take two years to train new recruits?
I must call the Minister.
Before he counters with the argument that it is all due to the memorandum of understanding with the troika, the Government can change it, as it has gone back on some of its original provisions.
The Deputy, sadly, is addicted to soundbite politics.
No, I am not.
If the Deputy had listened-----
Order, please.
I am, sadly, addicted to facts and reality.
I have been asked questions, but I cannot respond if the gentlemen feels the need to keep on shouting at me.
I am not shouting at the Minister.
If the Deputy wants an answer to his questions, perhaps he might do me the courtesy of staying quiet while I am replying.
On a point of order, I am not shouting at the Minister. I am sticking to the facts.
I have explained to the Deputy that there are six minutes per question. I have explained this to every Member and Minister.
If the Minister wants to give an answer, he can avoid a personal insult. I know if he tries, he can do it.
Will the Deputy, please, resume his seat?
If the Deputy was listening to my reply, he would have noticed that in the context of the success of An Garda Síochána, whereas there were drugs seized in 2011 to a value of €65 million, in the first three quarters of 2012 the figure came to €90.4 million. The Garda has had an exceptionally successful year in targeting organised crime, those engaged in the sale of illegal drugs, tobacco smugglers and the subversive terrorists in our midst. The Deputy knows this and there is no sense of any description that the Garda is losing any battle. Instead, it is engaging in smart policing, specific and focused operations, as well as focusing on a broad range of issues within the criminal justice area. In the context of gangland crime, there are focused operations to curtail the activities of those engaged in gangs and bring them before the courts. The Garda has achieved enormous success in Limerick, for example, and over 60 gang members are now in prison.
The Deputy referred to recent events. However, as he knows, I am constrained in the House in saying anything about these events because of pending criminal prosecutions as a result of successful Garda investigations. It would be good if, for once, he acknowledged that we have a Garda force that is doing an extraordinary job and using its resources wisely. Like all other arms of the State, it has less funding available to it, but it is using existing funds more smartly and in a better and more targeted way than may have been the case seven years ago. The Deputy, in his addicted search for a tabloid headline, should restrain himself and avoid undermining public confidence in the work the Garda is doing and, for once, acknowledge it is doing an extraordinary job. Many of the force's members, in the interests of the communities they serve, place their lives at serious risk.
It would be good if, for once, the Minister was honest with the people. To what personnel level is he going to allow Garda numbers fall before he realises the force is reaching a stage where it cannot take on the forces working against the State? I am not casting aspersions on An Garda Síochána and have acknowledged all of its successes. What I want to see the force do is to eradicate the problem completely. Everyone is united on this point. To what number of gardaí will the Minister allow the force to fall? Why will he not take a realistic look at the numbers and resource the force, bearing in mind that the cost of gangland activity to the Exchequer is €860 million per annum?
When the Minister claims up to 60 members of criminal gangs in the Limerick area are in jail, I must remind him that is the case because of legislation introduced by the previous Government. He is very quick to claim the previous Government was not performing. All of these gang members are behind bars because of changes to criminal justice legislation introduced by the Minister's predecessor.
We have similar numbers in the Garda Síochána to the numbers in 2007. Is the Deputy suggesting the Garda was not up to the job in that year? We have more members of An Garda Síochána today than we had at the height of the Troubles in Northern Ireland. An additional 213 Garda vehicles were purchased this year at a cost of €4 million. At a time of financial difficulty and when budgets are being trimmed, I have specifically allocated €5 million for the purchase of new Garda vehicles next year. The Deputy seems to resent the fact that the Defence Forces were allowed to recruit.
I do not resent it. I was just pointing it out.
Please, Deputy.
When I entered government, the Defence Forces had been-----
On a point of order-----
The Deputy is at it again. He cannot resist.
The Minister cannot claim I resent the extra numbers in the Defence Forces because I do not.
We are over time on this question.
People outside the House are rightly asking how the Minister can recruit an extra 600 personnel for the Defence Forces, yet he will not do the same for An Garda Síochána.
The Deputy cannot resist.
Why will the Minister not answer that question?
We are over time.
I know the truth is irritating, but the Deputy might let me finish.
I know the Minister cannot answer the question.
I know the Deputy is upset when I tell the truth, but he might let me finish.
I do not get upset.
When I entered government and had the privilege of being appointed Minister for Justice and Equality and Defence, I discovered in the defence area that the way funding had been allocated by the Deputy's predecessors in government was to make a pretence of the amount available for the current members of the Defence Forces when in reality the Defence Forces were heading towards a position where their numbers would be lower than 8,000. The Government has provided for and guaranteed a strength of 9,500 personnel for the Defence Forces. As a consequence, I am proud of the fact that in 2012 we recruited 600 new members for the Defence Forces.
Yet the complement of gardaí will fall below 12,000.
In the context of An Garda Síochána, the previous Government tied us to a position where we would be honour bound to reduce expenditure-----
The Government can change this.
-----and a commitment was given that by the end of 2013 numbers in An Garda Síochána would reduce to 13,000. If the Deputy wants to be in denial, it does not matter how loud he shouts at me. These are the facts.
The Minister has still not stated to what level he will allow the complement of gardaí to drop before he recruits more members.
55. Deputy Tom Fleming asked the Minister for Justice and Equality if he will second Irish army soldiers at corporal and sergeant level to act as assistance to the Garda Síochána unarmed for a period of two years following three months training and that they would be placed on foot pattrol in areas of high crime in larger towns and cities. [54641/12]
The delivery of a policing service is the statutory responsibility of the Garda Síochána and I have full confidence in its capacity to deliver that service efficiently and effectively. Where necessary, the Garda Síochána is assisted in carrying out certain specific duties by members of the Defence Forces in fulfilment of the role assigned to the Defence Forces to provide aid for the civil power. Pursuant to this role, the Defence Forces have several explosive ordnance disposal teams on call, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, to respond to requests received from the Garda Síochána for assistance in dealing with a suspect device or the removal of old ordnance. In addition, the Defence Forces provide assistance for the Garda Síochána in the operation of the Garda air support unit, the secure transport of cash throughout the State, the escort of prisoners and a range of other security duties. Outside of these areas of aid to the civil power, the distinction between the policing function of the Garda Síochána and the military function of the Defence Forces is an important one. Accordingly, I have no proposals for secondments along the lines referred to by the Deputy.
I have tabled this question because I seriously believe the Minister should redeploy those of higher rank in the Defence Forces. As these personnel are highly disciplined and trained, I am sure they would adapt easily to policing. They would be of great assistance in aiding the Garda, particularly, as Deputy Niall Collins illustrated, there is a significant crime wave, with many serious incidents taking place, especially in urban areas, larger cities and towns.
This is a worrying aspect of what is happening in gangland crime as well. We should take recognition of this and we must take action. This is one method whereby we can do as much as possible to minimise the actions of terror that are occurring. I call on the Minister to seriously reconsider what I am putting forward.
I put it to the Deputy that the members of the Defence Forces have specific training and capabilities and it is important that they use those capabilities in appropriate circumstances. Members of the Defence Forces are not trained in the prevention and detection of crime. The training provided to members of An Garda Síochána is quite different from that provided to members of the Defence Forces, although in some areas they have joint concerns, including the possible impact of international terrorism on the country. The Garda Síochána has a particular role in this regard as do the Defence Forces. It would not be appropriate, as the Deputy has suggested, to deploy soldiers at corporal and sergeant level to act as assistants to the Garda Síochána for a period of two months following three months of training. It would be completely inappropriate. The training members of the Defence Forces get is very specific. It is important that we have a particular strength available within the Defence Forces for deployment either to assist the civil power or to deal with other domestic duties that arise and to engage in international peacekeeping and peace enforcement missions, as they do with great distinction in various parts of the world.
I return to what I said to Deputy Niall Collins. There are 13,450 members in An Garda Síochána currently. On top of this, there are in excess of 1,000 members in the Garda Reserve. Some 2,000 civilians are employed within An Garda Síochána and within the force there is the skill, expertise and resources required to address issues of criminality. I am sorry if I upset Deputy Niall Collins by saying it, but as a result of the closure of Garda stations which the Commissioner has determined to have no operational value we will be freeing more members of the force to engage in community policing and crime detection and prevention. I have every confidence in the capacity of the Garda to provide the service that the community requires.
Certainly, I agree with the views of the Minister regarding our peacekeeping forces, which have been active internationally. They have served the country well as peacekeepers. However, at this point there are approximately 10,000 personnel. I imagine that Border patrolling has been reduced to approximately nil.
The other point is the reality that we are a neutral country. I cannot see that we will be rolled over at any stage in an act of war in the medium to longer term. There is enough in the forces to redeploy some personnel. I am conscious of the rural Garda deployment situation. Defence Forces personnel could have a high-visibility presence in conjunction with the Garda and they could be under the supervision of the Garda. This would give the Minister an opportunity to release some of the Garda force to come to rural areas and to assist there. The force is under extreme pressure at the moment because of the indiscriminate closure of the many of our rural stations. People are living in fear and terror.
I caution the Deputy about talking about fear and terror. Let us get back to the discussion of the closure of Garda stations. Some 94% of the stations that have closed were open for no more than three hours and the vast majority of these were only open in the morning. They made no contribution of significance to crime prevention by their presence. The vast majority of burglaries take place in the late afternoon or evening time. Does the Deputy or any Deputy in the House really imagine that a rural Garda station open for three hours in the morning can make any contribution to crime prevention in these areas? Operation Fiacla is making a contribution to crime prevention and detection in these areas. It was put in place last February by the Garda Commissioner and has resulted in a substantial number of arrests, in the region of 3,500 arrests since the beginning of October. In the region of 1,700 charges have been brought against individuals purely by focusing on and tacking the area of burglary.
I realise the Deputy's question is well meant but the Defence Forces, composed of the Army, the Naval Service and the Air Corps, perform distinct and specific functions entirely different from those of An Garda Síochána. Gardaí have particular training and skills which are important not only for crime detection and prevention but for the large array of laws that they must administer. That level of study could not be undertaken by any well-meaning member of the Defence Forces, even if it were desirable, within a three month period.
The concluding comment I wish to make and which is appropriate on this subject because it is not acknowledged enough is that I am conscious as Minister in both of these Departments of the extraordinary bravery not only of members of the Garda force in confronting subversion and organised crime within the country, but of the Defence Forces, in particular the explosive and ordnance disposal teams. There is no real public understanding yet of the extent to which some of those engaged in organised crime are resorting to the use of such ordnance and of the bravery of members of the specialist unit within the Army, which is regularly called out to dispose of pipe bombs and similar ordnance, the remarkable efficiency with which it does so, the extent to which these instruments are neutralised and the safety the unit provides for the community. It is in the connectivity between the distinct functions of the Garda and the specialist knowledge of the Defence Forces that the Defence Forces are playing a role in protecting the community and it is right that we pay tribute to the bravery of those who undertake these missions.
