Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 28 Feb 2013

Vol. 794 No. 3

Topical Issue Debate

Wind Energy Generation

Deputy Charles Flanagan

I am in favour of renewable energy and wind farms but I am also conscious of the needs of local communities. I, therefore, wish to call on the Minister to ensure that local democracy will be involved and that communities will at all times be reassured about and be kept fully informed of developments in this regard. The 2006 wind energy guidelines are obsolete and insufficient, particularly in the context of the recently signed memorandum of understanding with the United Kingdom. There must be a cohesive approach involving the Departments of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources and the Environment, Community and Local Government in order to ensure that proper guidelines are put in place. When I refer to proper guidelines, I mean those of a statutory and mandatory nature. It is imperative that my concerns be taken on board and addressed at an early stage.

I understand that there was a recent two-week consultation period in respect of wind energy guidelines. I ask the Minister to examine reopening the consultation process, particularly on foot of the information deficit which exists. Information deficits tend to give rise to, perhaps, unnecessary concerns among communities. A major debate on this matter is commencing in the midlands. I am of the view that this debate must be managed properly. Adequate regulations must be put in place and we must ensure that we bring people and communities along with us. What could be a win-win situation could easily be turned into a loss if we fail to do the latter.

Deputy Brian Stanley

Like the previous speaker, I want wind energy to be harnessed. However, this must be done in a sustainable and proper manner and local communities must be involved. What is happening in Laois and other counties at present flies in the face of this. Four areas in Laois have been designated in the local county development plan and four further areas are open to consideration. In fairness to them, local councillors developed some reasonable proposals in respect of this matter. However, what will happen is that a company will be able to use the strategic infrastructure legislation in order to sweep those proposals to one side.

The key issue is that electricity produced by means of wind energy must be used to supply local customers in the first instance. We do not want huge turbines to be plonked in the middle of Vicarstown, Ballybrittas or wherever and the energy they generate to be reserved exclusively for the British market. I do not have any hang-ups with regard to the export of electricity to Britain. We should do that if we have surplus supplies. However, we currently import 85% of our fuel and much of this is used to generate electricity in this country. We need to ensure that things are done the right way around and in a sustainable way.

Deputy Charles Flanagan referred to guidelines. These are not worth the paper on which they are written, particularly as they state that, in general, noise is unlikely to be a significant problem where the distance to the nearest turbine is more than 500 m. The guidelines are not specific in the context of distances. What we need to do is consider local heritage, the landscape and the impact of noise and of the shadow flicker effect of turbines on people. Companies are buying up location rights from farmers at present in a completely underhanded way. Regulations are required in this regard. All we have in place at present is the strategic infrastructure legislation, which large companies will use to sweep the democratic wishes of local councillors, as expressed in local development plans, and those of local communities to one side. We must try to stop this happening.

I ask that this matter be revisited. In addition, I am of the view that we should seek, on an all-party basis, to have regulations - not guidelines - similar to those which exist in other countries put in place.

Deputy Michael Colreavy

This nation is 89% dependent on imported fossil fuels in order to meet its energy needs. The cost to our economy in this regard is €6 billion per annum. This is despite the fact that we possess undeveloped capacity in the context of indigenous renewable resources which is capable of allowing us to meet our energy needs several times over. If one looks at a map of Ireland, one can see that it is uniquely well situated in the context of being able to generate wind, wave and tidal energy.

The crucial aspect of the matter under discussion is the need for community buy-in, especially in the context of wind turbines. In too many instances, outside companies manufacture and erect turbines in particular areas and, with the exception of the small number of farmers from whom land is rented, the majority of host communities see little or no benefit from such projects. This gives rise to animosity. The planning guidelines are being flouted. Wind turbines erected in County Donegal are situated far closer to occupied homes than the guidelines stipulate. It is clear that regulations are required.

We need to examine the potential benefits for the State, particularly in the context of employment. In that regard, we must consider introducing a national strategy on renewable energy. At present, all we have in place are a number of objectives and certain targets. What is required is a national strategy which sets out in full the Government's plan for the development of wind energy and the use of natural resources in the short, medium and long term.

Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government (Deputy Phil Hogan)

I thank Deputies Charles Flanagan, Stanley and Colreavy for raising this extremely important matter.

The wind energy development guidelines of 2006 provide advice to planning authorities on catering for wind energy through the development plan process. They are also intended to ensure a consistency of approach throughout the country in the identification of suitable locations for wind energy development and in the treatment of the relevant planning applications.

To ensure that Ireland continues to meet its renewable energy targets and, at the same time, that wind energy does not have negative impacts on local communities, my Department, in conjunction with the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources and other stakeholders, is undertaking a targeted review of certain aspects of the wind energy guidelines of 2006. This focused review will examine the manner in which the guidelines address key issues of community concern such as noise, proximity and visual amenity, and any other potential impacts as considered appropriate, as well as considering ways of building community support for wind energy development.

The press notice issued on 30 January marks only the initial stage in that review process. In response to Deputy Flanagan, it is essentially a pre-draft consultation intended to inform the preparation of the revised draft guidelines, and I emphasise the word "draft". This early consultation allows for the public and other stakeholders to have an input into the process at the earliest possible stage. The Environmental Protection Agency and Sustainable Energy Ireland will also be consulted.

All statutory planning guidelines issue first in draft form for public consultation over a period of a couple of months. Once the consultation period is closed, the submissions received on the draft guidelines are considered and taken into account in the final form of the guidelines. The draft guidelines, like all other new or revised guidelines, will go out for extensive public consultation for a period of six weeks to two months. The publication of those draft guidelines will not take place until the third or fourth quarter of this year, and the extended public consultation I am describing will then take place.

Deputy Charles Flanagan

I very much welcome what the Minister has said. I merely wish to add to my earlier contribution by stressing to him the importance of local consultation at all times. There is cross-party agreement on the benefits of wind energy to this country, and that is of great importance to our economy and our society, but I ask the Minister to confirm that he will ensure a process of consultation that will address the justifiable fears of communities in terms of the impact of the infrastructure on communities and on the landscape.

Deputy Brian Stanley

While I welcome the statement in the Minister's reply that there will be a review, and we appear to have some time to have an input into that, the problem is that we will end up having guidelines. The difficulty is that, while a county development plan has some standing, as a believer in local democracy I feel it should have a stronger standing, particularly when councillors such as those in Laois set out areas that are designated for wind turbines in proper locations. That should be respected. The problem with guidelines is that they will not have statutory weight; they can be overruled. Large companies will come up with arguments to override them, and when we read headlines such as the one I have to hand from a local Laois newspaper, which states that Laois farmers could reap millions from wind turbines, with the article stating that a person could get up to €25,000 per annum for having one of these giant turbines in his or her field, there will be a stampede for wind turbines. I fear that by the end of the year large parts of the midlands will be dotted with turbines; we will have the turbines first and then the planning applications. I wish to highlight that in areas of counties Laois and Offaly, as well as others, there is an urgent need to deal with this issue. We cannot lock the stable door after the horse has bolted. We must take action on it now. It is urgent, and it is important that we put proper guidelines in place such as those proposed by Deputy Penrose and Senator Kelly.

Deputy Michael Colreavy

I thank the Minister for his reply. Everybody agrees that wind energy is a good thing, but the expected benefits from renewable energy, including wind energy, will not be achieved unless there is a strategy in which we set out what we intend to achieve and how we intend to achieve it in terms of the financial income to the State, the impact on the host community and the benefits for the host community. We have two ways of doing that. We can set out our stall, work with people and have it done, or we can work against people. I am a strong proponent of bringing people with us and getting them to understand the reason for a development. Otherwise, private companies will come in, short-term jobs will be created, there will be financial gain for a number of landowners, but the wider societal and local community benefits will not accrue unless we set them out and aim to achieve them.

Deputy Phil Hogan

I am glad the Deputies on all sides of the House are saying that wind energy and renewable energy policies are good. The strategy about which Deputy Colreavy spoke was published last July.

Deputy Michael Colreavy

It is not a strategy.

Deputy Phil Hogan

It is a strategy. It is part of our energy policy-----

Deputy Michael Colreavy

It is a statement of objectives.

Deputy Phil Hogan

-----published by my colleague, the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, who is sitting beside me.

Deputy Michael Colreavy

A statement of objectives is not a strategy.

Deputy Phil Hogan

I am entitled to ask him when it was published, and he told me it was published last July.

Deputy Michael Colreavy

Well, it is mistitled.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Jack Wall)

Deputy, please allow the Minister to respond.

Deputy Phil Hogan

I ask all Deputies to give an accurate picture of the way the process works and not to campaign based on misinformation. I pointed out in my original response the accurate position regarding draft consultation. If people want to get involved in that consultation in a meaningful and constructive way, I would welcome that, but there is sufficient time during the course of most of this year for that consultation to happen. I have outlined the process accurately, but there is a lot of misinformation surrounding this important matter.

The current system, with detailed statutory guidance for planning authorities on wind energy development, provides for a degree of specificity and uniformity across all planning authorities, while also leaving the final decision in the hands of local decision makers. The community and the general public, therefore, will have many opportunities to engage in this process, with the help of their public representatives.

The introduction of mandatory minimum distances set out in statute, as has been proposed by some, could effectively prohibit a planning authority from considering wind energy development that may otherwise be acceptable or even desirable from a broad energy policy perspective. We have to have a balance.

The final outcome of the review of the guidelines will be binding on the planning authorities. These are statutory guidelines which I, as Minister, will issue under section 28 of the Planning and Development Acts 2000 to 2012. This provides that planning authorities and An Bord Pleanála must have regard to the guidelines in the performance of their functions and must demonstrate how they have implemented the policies and objectives of the Minister in applying the guidelines in their functional areas. Planning authorities are also required, under section 28, to make copies of the guidelines available for inspection and distribution to members of the public.

I hope I have allayed the concerns of the Deputies. The process is very open, and sufficient time will be given to local communities to have their say.

Post Office Network

Deputy Mick Wallace

I am sure the Minister is well aware that keeping small institutions open in small villages is becoming a challenge. There is an ideology driving much of government thinking in the developed world, and at its core is the idea that small institutions, services and outlets are only sustainable if they are economically sustainable. The notion that a premises might have a social value, which is generally not a quantifiable commodity, is fading off the radar. We do not value something unless it has monetary value, which is leading us to a point at which we know the price of everything and the value of nothing. There must be an active desire on the part of the State to keep our villages alive. Many of these institutions are interconnected, and when one is closed it threatens those that remain. That false economic philosophy, which fails to take on board the social dividend, must be challenged if we are to avoid turning rural Ireland into a wasteland. The cost of such closures to the people is immeasurable, sowing the seeds of economic failure, unemployment, isolation and social problems too numerous to mention.

Duncormick post office in Wexford probably would not even be up for review by An Post but for the fact that it was closed for review, and now An Post is considering not reopening it or allowing a tender process to commence in the village.

There is much anger in the village of Duncormick at the idea that it might not have a post office. The nearest post offices are 6.6 km and 7.2 km away. There are many old people in the area who do not have transport of their own and who are literally begging for lifts to get to the post office to carry out any business they may have. I know the Minister is at pains to stress that An Post is a commercial State body and that it must make ends meet, which is understandable. It has more than 1,000 post offices but I suspect it would like fewer. An Post might argue that it would be more economically sustainable if it had fewer units, but given that it is State-owned and the Minister has influence over it, it is important that we do not lose sight of the social value post offices offer these small communities.

We have seen the closure of post offices, Garda stations, small shops, small pubs and small businesses and there is the threatened closure of small schools because there are not enough pupils. It is a dangerous path to go down. The Government needs a strategy. If institutions do not appear to be sustainable and if the figures do not add up, we must help make them more sustainable. Retaining life in these villages is very important.

Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Deputy Pat Rabbitte)

I agree with a great deal of what Deputy Wallace said. In my recent reply to a similar question from him, I set out that it is my clear objective that An Post remain a strong and viable State company, providing high-quality services on a nationwide basis through a network of economically viable post offices, and this remains my position. I know this objective is shared on all sides of the House. However, I stress that the company must be, as the Deputy said, in a sustainable and viable financial position to ensure this.

I remind the Deputy that An Post is a commercial State company with its own board and management and their strategy and decision-making must be formulated in this context. Furthermore, operational matters are the responsibility of the board and management and I have no statutory function in this area.

The Government is a strong supporter of the network through the range of services it provides, which include social welfare payments, State savings and Passport Express. An Post has also been successful in leveraging its retail footprint to provide other services such as banking and insurance, which support continued easy access to those services for local communities. I know the Deputy will join with me in congratulating An Post on winning an arrangement with the Revenue Commissioners to collect the property tax. That will help the revenue position of An Post and it is the kind of new service it can provide better than anybody else, with a network of 1,138 offices throughout the country.

I fully understated the Deputy's concern about the viability of rural post offices and the importance of the post office to local communities. It should be noted that An Post is currently facing many challenges not just financially but from the development of communications technologies. Any decisions it may take must be considered in the context of maintaining a sustainable post office network. As shareholder, however, I have a strong concern in terms of the ongoing commercial position of the company and I regularly liaise with it in this regard.

I firmly believe An Post has many strengths. It is a trusted brand, has the largest retail presence in the country and is closely integrated with local communities. I have impressed on the company the need to further exploit its unique position in this regard and have been supportive of its attempts to diversify its income streams and to win a wider range of commercial contracts offering higher margins. I welcome the progress An Post has made towards diversification, including the announcement that following the decision of AIB to close a number of branches, an extended range of AIB services is available through post offices in the locality of the closures. This is beneficial not only to An Post as a commercial body but also to the local communities.

My Department and I will maintain ongoing contact with the board and management of the company to work with them on our shared objectives in light of the challenging environment they face.

Deputy Mick Wallace

It is good that post offices are diversifying, and the Minister mentioned the closure of AIB branches. The idea of our State-owned banks, or our pillar banks, providing a personal service is fading fast and we will see more branches closing than opening. There will be even more work for post offices.

The post office in question is the last post office in this parish. There were two, but the Cleariestown office closed a couple of years ago. There are three post offices in the neighbouring parish. The local people have organised a public meeting tomorrow night as they are really upset at the idea that they may not have a post office in the future and that there will be no post office in the parish. The post office most people are using now is in Bridgetown, but there are no banking facilities there. Although it is a big loss to a small number of people, because many go to the nearest town to do their banking, it means a lot to people who are immobile and who are not computer-literate.

Duncormick post office has an average of 800 transactions per week, which is not a large number, but surely it is enough to make it sustainable. I asked An Post if it would cost money to keep Duncormick post office open but it said it would not. An Post has more than 1,100 post offices and I asked if it wanted fewer than 1,000. The answer I was given was "Probably, yes" but at the same time it has admitted it would not cost it money to keep Duncormick post office open.

I know An Post is a commercial State body with its own board and that it makes its own decisions, but nobody has as much influence and control over it as the Minister. I ask him to look favourably on Duncormick's retaining its post office.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

I have passed on to An Post the concerns about Duncormick post office, in particular, which the Deputy mentioned. Contractual issues arose there and I understand notices have been posted locally inviting submissions from the local people. An Post has guaranteed me it will take them into account in making whatever decision it eventually arrives at, and that consultation process is quite deliberate.

The Deputy and myself are at one in welcoming the diversification that has recently taken place in the post office. More of that needs to happen as its core business has been seriously affected by electronic substitution. It is as simple as that. The volume of letters has been falling. One can call it progress, technology or whatever one wishes but that is the reality of the environment in which An Post is trying to survive.

I am sorry that although I gave the Deputy the opportunity to break the news about the collection of the property tax, he did not rise to his feet to welcome it. I thought he would welcome the fact that the facility is being made available. It demonstrates the entrepreneurial instinct of An Post and it is a positive step.

Unfinished Housing Developments

Deputy Barry Cowen

As we all know, the collapse of the building industry and the banking crisis left many unfinished housing developments through the country. The importance of the placement of appropriate insurance or financial bonds with various local authorities became very obvious.

In such circumstances the bond can be claimed by the local authority and arrangements put in place for remaining outstanding works and services to be completed by that local authority. In most cases this ensures that roads, lighting, footpaths, water management and so forth are done in accordance with the building regulations and the initial planning permission granted for that development.

Last Monday, some members of Kerry County Council were briefed on the progress being made by that local authority on unfinished estates. They were informed that eight bonds had been placed with IBRC. Two had been claimed successfully prior to the recent and sudden liquidation of the bank. The other six now appear to be useless, placed on the list of creditors. I raised a similar situation some weeks ago relating to an estate in Arklow. In that instance, homeowners had been asked by the council to foot the bill in the absence of such a bond. I asked then that the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government contact Wicklow County Council, take ownership of the issue and show leadership on it. Subsequently, I discovered that the bond in question is now being pursued through the courts, and rightly so. However, that policy indicates that in the absence of an adequate bond, homeowners may be pursued.

The dramatic liquidation of IBRC has had a number of consequences the Government does not appear to have anticipated and planned for effectively. A number of credit unions, for example, had fixed term deposits with the former State-owned bank which might also be lost in the liquidation. Sources within the credit union movement have stated that losses could be as high as €17 million for credit unions across the country. I do not want this burning of credit unions and local authorities to be remembered as the only burning of bondholders that took place. That is the reason I raise this.

Rather than me consulting with each local authority throughout the country, does the Minister know how many local authorities have bonds lodged with IBRC? How much money, potentially, will be lost to the local authorities? Did the Government consider the impact of the liquidation on local authorities and credit unions? What steps is the Minister taking to address this situation before it turns into a crisis that cannot be reversed?

Minister of State at the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (Deputy Brian Hayes)

On 7 February last the Oireachtas passed the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Act 2013, appointing joint special liquidators to IBRC with immediate effect to wind up its business and operations. At this early stage of the special liquidation the liquidators are engaged in intensive processes which involve, inter alia, asserting control over the businesses, processes, systems and personnel of IBRC. The issue of development bonds issued by the bank is one of a number of important issues that they must consider in exercising their statutory duties under the Act.

In general, development bonds have traditionally been required as conditions of planning permission by local authorities. As a condition of planning permission the developer must provide a bond, set out as a planning condition, which is called upon in the event that the developer does not complete the development in accordance with the plans and particulars, the conditions of planning and relevant codes and regulations. I understand that IBRC had in the past issued such bonds to local authorities in respect of loans outstanding to the institution.

Following the enactment of the IBRC Act the special liquidators' primary function is the orderly wind up of IBRC. I am advised development bonds that were previously entered into by IBRC in favour of the various county councils or local authorities remain in place. However, it should be noted that it is likely that any liabilities arising under these arrangements, if called upon, will most likely rank as unsecured claims in the special liquidation. It must be stressed that these bonds are contingent liabilities and will only be called upon where developers breach planning conditions and are not in a position to meet any liability that arises as a result. Any local authority should contact the special liquidators directly in respect of such claims should they arise.

Throughout the liquidation process it has been acknowledged that there are, unfortunately, unavoidable costs associated with the recent agreement relating to the promissory notes. The Deputy has identified two categories of possible creditors that may become unsecured creditors through the liquidation process, but the normal Companies Acts priorities will apply in this liquidation process. Amounts owing by IBRC to a range of creditors, including, contractors, trade creditors and other service providers, are unsecured. The proceeds from the disposal of IBRC's assets will be used to repay creditors in accordance with normal Companies Acts priorities. Consequently preferred creditors will be paid first and then the debt which the National Asset Management Agency, NAMA, will have purchased from the Central Bank will be paid. If there are proceeds available after repayment in full of the NAMA debt, these proceeds will be applied to remaining unsecured creditors.

These costs must be taken in context. We have now rid Ireland of the annual promissory note repayment, reduced the State's cash borrowing requirement by €20 billion over the next ten years, brought the State €1 billion closer to meeting our deficit targets and Anglo Irish Bank and Irish Nationwide Building Society have been consigned to history. That said, the Government is aware of the difficulties the liquidation may cause for all those parties affected, including the local authorities. It must be highlighted that the key objective of the special liquidators is to maximise the value of IBRC's available assets to meet IBRC's liabilities to its creditors. If the renewal of these development bonds is required to protect, maintain or enhance the value of the loan or development, the special liquidators will consider each case on a individual basis and if the powers afforded to them under the IBRC Act permit them to do so. If the special liquidators are permitted to extend bonds they will consider a range of criteria, including the cost-benefit analysis in respect of each bond and the impact on the value of the loan or development of not renewing the arrangement.

Again, it must be stressed that while these are unfortunate consequences of the IBRC liquidation, they must be considered in light of the considerable benefits that have been achieved as part of this arrangement, which represents a major step forward for our financial system. The substantial benefits of this arrangement flow from the exchange of the promissory notes for far more efficient financing from the State's perspective. In real terms, the benefits are considerable when compared with the existing costs associated with the promissory notes.

Deputy Barry Cowen

The Minister confirmed in his response that the development bonds of local authorities are classified as unsecured claims. He also confirmed that the deposits of €17 million of local credit unions throughout the country are unsecured claims. He said that the local authorities should contact the special liquidators of IBRC about any claims they have on their books regarding development estates which remain unfinished.

A report on ghost estates found that there are 1,770 unfinished housing developments throughout the country. According to the progress report from the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, over 1,100 of these estates are in a serious problematic condition. The residents of these estates need support to ensure that their homes and environment are brought up to the standard laid out in the original planning permission governing those developments.

The Minister referred to whether the liquidators choose to do this or that. First, the Government gave the Minister special powers to make payments with regard to IBRC, outside the realm of the special liquidators. The Minister should be conscious of that in the context not only of local authorities and development bonds but also with regard to credit unions, the staff of IBRC and the commitments that were given to them prior to the liquidation and the lack of enforcement of those commitments since the liquidation. I have strayed from the subject of the Topical Issue in that regard, but it is worth mentioning.

The Taoiseach also stated that emergency recapitalisation funds are available to make up any shortfall. That was with regard to credit unions. Can the Minister give the same commitment or can he acknowledge that this commitment was given, that it was correct and that the House was properly informed, with regard to development bonds, the credit unions and IBRC staff?

This situation will spiral completely out of control. As I said earlier on the Wicklow issue, it became apparent by virtue of the action being taken subsequent to the raising of the issue here that in the event of bonds not being accessed by the local authorities, it is the opinion of the Department that responsibility will lie with homeowners. A great many homeowners will be queuing up to seek clarification. If the Minister of State cannot provide clarity today, I hope it will be forthcoming very shortly.

Deputy Brian Hayes

To suggest this is something new is not honest. It has been well known since the passing of the Act that a number of issues would arise in the special liquidation process. Deputy Barry Cowen has mentioned two: one in connection with credit unions and the other in connection with development levies. The Houses of the Oireachtas have provided powers to the special liquidator to do his job, which is to ensure the orderly winding down of the operations of IBRC in a way that maximises the value of assets worth between €12 billion and €14 billion that still exist within the company. A liquidation process is under way. Deputy Barry Cowen is correct in stating that the creditors in the two categories he mentioned are unsecured, as is well known. I will not comment on any individual case. As I set out in my scripted reply, it is a matter in the first instance for local authorities to make contact with the special liquidator. I will not prejudge the outcome of that process as the issue is worked through. I agree with the Deputy that it would be the irony of ironies were it to transpire that homeowners who purchased homes in these circumstances would have to face the bills where estates are unfinished. The Government will consider this issue, particularly through the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, which has a special relationship with local authorities. The first task of the IBRC special liquidator is to resolve the issue.

The Deputy is correct to say that some credit unions could be caught by this, but many credit unions had the foresight to get out of this situation. There may be red faces due to timing or a failure to exit the bank well in advance given the fact that other institutions determined that they should do so. This is a normal liquidation and we should not automatically conclude from Deputy Cowen's remarks that people will be hung out to dry financially. We are aware of the circumstances and will work through the issue with other Departments as we see fit.

EU-IMF Programme of Support Negotiations

Deputy Kevin Humphreys

I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Hayes, for taking the debate. The Minister of State may know that I have been raising this issue for some time through parliamentary questions and questions to the NTMA and the Governor of the Central Bank. It is a very important issue.

In 2010 and 2011, the European Central Bank, ECB, and national central banks purchased almost €20 billion of Irish sovereign bonds in the secondary market through the secured market programme. At that time, the bonds were trading well below par. When Ireland redeems and pays out on the bonds as they fall due, the ECB will make substantial profits on the capital portion and further profits on the interest or coupon we pay out each year. Currently, profits are shared out proportionately among eurozone national central banks according to their share of the ECB capital base or on the basis of GDP and population. We should seek the return of these profits, which I estimate at between €3 billion and €5 billion. Those figures have not been contradicted by the Central Bank or the NTMA. Of that €3 billion, Germany would get the greatest share, equal to 19% of the total, or €600 million; France would get 14%, or €420 million; and Ireland would make a profit on its own bonds equivalent to 1% of the total, or €30 million.

Greece has been given a deal worth more than €7 billion and we should seek the same. Just last week, the ECB released the figures on its SMP holdings showing that €14.2 billion is currently held. The figure excludes the holdings of other national and central banks on our bonds. I ask the Minister of State to look at this as part of the strategic and tactical negotiations on reducing our national debt. The Minister should start to negotiate this reduction.

Deputy Dominic Hannigan

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for selecting this important topic. In November, the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, and other eurozone finance Ministers agreed a deal for Greece that has not yet been made available to any other country. The special deal is that the interest and capital earned on the ECB purchase of Greek bonds will be returned to Greece. This represents €500 million for the Greek economy in 2013 alone, and the money will continue to be paid for the next five years. I understand that if a similar deal was extended to Ireland, it would represent approximately €500 million per year. Over five years, this would be about €2.5 billion. If we could renegotiate a similar deal for Ireland, we would be in a better position to address the hole in our budget. Over the next two years, we would have an additional €1 billion to play with in the Exchequer. I stress the need to go to Europe to make the case that we want something similar to the deal the Greek Government got. I ask the Minister of State to ensure that he and the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, make a case for Ireland to get a similar deal from the ECB.

Deputy Brian Hayes

I thank the Deputies for raising the matter and note their interest over many months in pursuing this issue with the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan.

What the Government is seeking to achieve with its European partners to underpin Ireland's exit from the programme is complex and is not simply a matter of requesting the same policy tools as have applied in the case of Greece. We should recall that serious budgetary and economic problems led to Greece's requiring urgent financial assistance in early 2010 and additional measures since. Despite the assistance provided in 2010 and the further assistance provided later, Greece's problems remained and its financial position continued to give cause for significant concern. Thus, in late 2012 a range of additional measures were agreed at EU level which were designed to help Greece to meet its commitments under its programme of financial assistance. It is worth noting that the measures taken were unique and particular to the very grave situation that obtained in Greece. It is also important to note that these actions were taken with significant additional conditionality, which I can refer to later and which we would not wish to be applied in our case.

The measures agreed in respect of Greece included a debt buyback of bonds held by private investors - what was called private-sector involvement; a reduction of 100 basis points in the interest rate margin on the Greek loan facility, bringing it to 50 basis points; a cancellation of the guarantee commitment fee on EFSF loans; an extension of the maximum maturities of the loan to Greece by 15 years to 30 years, which is a measure we are working on following our communiqué to ECOFIN and the eurozone in January 2013; the deferral of interest payments on EFSF loans for ten years; and an agreement that member states will pass on to Greece's segregated account an amount equivalent to the income on the securities market programme portfolio accruing to their national central banks from budget year 2013. This last measure is a transfer from the relevant member states, not the ECB.

On the question of the amount of money involved, while a figure for the profits made by the European Central Bank, ECB, on its holding of Irish Government bonds is not available, it published information on its holdings of bonds under its securities market programme on Thursday, 21 February 2013. This showed the ECB held €14.2 billion nominal value of Irish bonds on 31 December 2012, with an average remaining maturity of 4.6 years.

The package of measures for Greece agreed late last year by eurozone Finance Ministers was designed to help put the Greek economy on the road to recovery. The package was agreed in the context of the statement by euro area Heads of Government that the scale of the Greek problem is so large that it requires special attention. It is important to note again that the concessions that have been agreed are specific to Greece and are accompanied by significant additional conditionality.

It must be acknowledged Ireland is in a very different situation to Greece. Our programme is working. We have completed over 190 agreed targets and have surpassed many including our annual deficit targets. Growth has returned to the economy and I particularly welcome yesterday's figures showing positive employment growth. Furthermore, as a country exiting a programme, our situation cannot be seen as comparable to Greece. We are, however, examining the Greek package to see if aspects of it offer any possible benefit to Ireland, particularly for our exit.

We have had positive news recently. The elimination of the promissory notes and Irish Bank Resolution Corporation, IBRC, the sale of the Bank of Ireland CoCos, contingent convertible capital notes, the recent sale of Irish Life, and just this week, the announcement of the end of the bank guarantee are all significant milestones on the way to our recovery. We still, however, have very important and necessary decisions to take, as evidenced by the recent agreement on public sector pay. Ireland is a country very different from Greece.

We must also recall the benefits we have already received, notably assistance in the form of reduction of interest rates and extended maturities. In addition, the Heads of Government statement of June last year on breaking the link between banks and sovereigns made explicit reference to supporting Ireland's well-performing adjustment programme. It is important to remember Ireland is exiting a programme. We should have regard to what we need to assist that exit rather than focus solely on measures provided for a country in very different circumstances.

Deputy Kevin Humphreys

I compliment the Ministers, Deputies Noonan and Brian Hayes, on the work they have previously done in this regard. I did point out that the ECB did publish its holdings of Irish Government bonds of €14.2 billion in the securities market programme. What is not clear is what other member states' central banks hold. I maintain it is approximately €20 billion.

I accept we are not Greece. We certainly do not get the weather it gets. I am not referring to a write-down or an interest holiday but to the profits on Irish debt of which each eurozone country will receive a share unless we are given a similar package to that of Greece. There is an opening to negotiate this. We need to build on the deal Greece got recently. It would make significant savings of €3 billion, the equivalent of what would be raised if we sold off some State agencies. Such savings would make a substantial difference to our debt profile and help us speedily recover economically.

Deputy Dominic Hannigan

I note the Minister for Finance has joined us in the Chamber. He once said one of the few good things to come out of Greece was feta cheese. I believe this deal the Greeks got with the ECB was also something good that came out of Greece. Notwithstanding the fact we are in a different programme, did a deal on the promissory notes, closed down IBRC and have had other successes over the past few days, this deal requires further action on our part. I expect the Minister to make the case to Brussels for Ireland to get the same deal the Greeks got.

Deputy Brian Hayes

The adjustment this year for our budget is €3.5 billion. The equivalent adjustment in Greece is about €9 billion, despite the write-down it has already obtained. This is Greece's third run at this. On the other arrangements put in place by the Eurogroup, there was significant private and public sector involvement. We have always said we will examine all the options and continue to negotiate the package that best suits Ireland's needs. Some of the issues extended to Greece, particularly on the extension of maturities on the EFSF, European financial stability facility, and ESM, European Stability Mechanism, moneys, are being examined by the European Commission to see if they might fit into Ireland's circumstances.

We are, however, in a different position to Greece. It is accepted internationally that Greece will be in the accident and emergency ward for a long time. We are not like that. We will be out of this programme because of the decisions the Deputies and other colleagues have supported this Government in taking over the past two years. It is important that we continue to look at the range of options that are there. The tools that apply to Greece may not automatically apply to Ireland. We are always open to looking if they can be fitted to the particular circumstances in the Irish case. This is an evolving negotiation with the end of it when the troika leaves and we are back on our feet. We are confident we can get there but we will continue to look at all of the options available. It is not honest, however, to claim the Irish debt profile, economic experience and banking position is in any way comparable to the situation that applies in Greece.