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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 18 Apr 2013

Vol. 800 No. 1

Credit Reporting Bill 2012: Second Stage (Resumed)

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I have become used to feeling a heightened sense of unreality whenever I enter the Chamber to participate in debates on Government legislation, particularly on matters pertaining to the activities of banks, financial institutions and lenders. The sense of unreality, a complete disconnection between the legislative reforms discussed in the Chamber and the actuality of events in the economy for our citizens, is particularly sharp in the context of this Bill and its stated intentions. It is as if the crisis that is under way in terms of the activities of our banks and the dilemma facing approximately 180,000 families in mortgage distress are not happening.

According to the Minister, setting up a central credit register under the Bill will assist lenders in making informed lending decisions and protecting higher risk borrowers from excessive debt. One can only laugh when the Government introduces such a Bill while, as we speak, the Minister for Justice and Equality is setting out guidelines that will punish for years to come people who borrowed simply to put roofs over their heads and now find themselves unable to repay through no fault of their own. Some 180,000 families cannot repay their debts. It is not because there was not a central credit register, but because of the reckless greed and profit-driven behaviour of banks and the willingness of politicians and Governments to allow banks to be a law unto themselves.

There is little in and of itself in the Bill that is particularly objectionable. Let us have a central credit register so that we might know the overall level of borrowing in the country and so that banks cannot lend to people who have no chance to repay their significant debts.

That is fair enough. In normal times one might think this is a sort of modest, legislative reform for which one could put a fair argument and that it would cause no harm. However, let us be honest; if the legislation had been in place previously one could ask whether it would have made a blind bit of difference to the behaviour of the banks. Do we think the banks that gave 110% mortgages to people on low incomes or who helped pump up the property market because of their own greed and avarice were particularly worried about the credit history of the people to whom they were lending? They did not give a damn about the credit history. They knew in many cases that they were lending to people with poor credit histories. They did not need a register to tell them. They knew what they were doing was dangerous and they still did it because they were driven by bonuses, market share and the hunger for profit. The fact that at some point the bubble they were creating as a result of the activity would burst did not bother them in the least. It was like the game, Pass the Parcel; they just kept passing the parcel and hoped they would not be the one left holding it when the music stopped. That was the game they were playing. They knew it was madness and reckless and they knew they were lending to people who in many cases could not pay the money back. In many cases they sat down with people and I suspect the people themselves gave them enough information to let the financial institutions know that it was bordering on insanity to lend them money, but they still lent it to them.

One could ask what the Bill will do to change that. It will do virtually nothing. The real issue is why in the real world, as we speak, the Government is setting out to punish the innocent victims of the behaviour of banks rather than to punish the banks, bondholders and international financiers that lent them money into this crazy bubble that they were stoking up for their own greed and profit. That is the issue that must be addressed in the context of the utter failure of the Government to do that. In fact, the Government is moving in the opposite direction and everything it does is essentially to punish the victims, in most cases innocent borrowers who wanted to do nothing more than put a roof over their head or were encouraged by banks in some cases to get buy-to-let mortgages because the banks were telling them that was a safe place to put their money for their latter years. They were innocent people, not speculators or big capitalists but just people who had a few extra bob later in life. We have discovered that many mortgage holders are not young people but older people and, therefore, as MABS has said, the proposals the Government is putting forward on split mortgages will not deal with the crisis because for people in their 40s, 50s and 60s the idea that one could park some of the mortgage and then pay it in 20 or 30 years’ time is preposterous.

One could ask why we are not dealing with that fact. The one reform the Government will not consider is forcing the banks to write down unsustainable mortgage debt. What we will end up with on the credit register is up to 200,000 families with bad credit records who will not be able to borrow money, and who will probably go to illegal moneylenders who will not look at the credit register. Desperate people will be forced into the hands of illegal moneylenders, charging absolutely extortionate interest rates to people. Those issues must be addressed and the people concerned will be in a desperate situation precisely because the Government, the troika and all the rest of them have made a strategic political decision that the victims must pay the price of the crisis caused by the bankers in the first place. Let us begin to address the reality outside this House rather than what is an innocuous but fundamentally fake reform that will not address the urgent crisis being faced by hundreds of thousands of families.

I welcome the Bill. It is a vitally important step in creating a more responsible banking system in this country. Any legislation that will addresses the historic bad practices, bad lending and bad banking should be welcomed. I trust that these new measures will go some way towards making the system clearer and more transparent in terms of borrowers. It is clear that reckless lending practices were largely responsible for the banking crisis in this country and under these new rules banks will have to report how much they are lending and to whom.

During the boom times, people were borrowing more than they could afford and banks were giving out loans too freely. As public representatives we are all aware of people taking out loans from various financial institutions in order to invest in property both in this country and abroad. Unfortunately, some of those people are now in negative equity, in some cases with large mortgage arrears. People find it extremely difficult to pay back their debts and some will face repossession, in particular of investment properties.

The Bill creates a central credit register to be maintained and operated by the Central Bank. It will encourage more responsible borrowing and lending. The overall picture in terms of borrowers will be blatantly obvious, which is good. Previously, banks shared information on customers but only those institutions that were members of the Irish Credit Bureau and not all banks were members. Lenders have had to seek permission from borrowers before reporting details of their loans on the system. They will no longer have to do that under the terms of the Bill as the information will be passed on automatically and banks will be required to share details of loans and borrowings. Loans of a value greater than €500 must be reported on the system. Lending institutions will have to ensure that customers are fully informed that the institution is obliged to store their information on the central credit register. In that regard, it is important that clear information about the changes being made are provided on a website or in literature to ensure customers are informed about the change in the law in this area of banking.

It is vitally important that there is a system in place to monitor how much credit institutions are lending and how much people are borrowing. In recent years people were borrowing far beyond their means to invest in property. Property developers borrowed large amounts of money to build developments all over the country, some of which, sadly, remain unfinished as a result of the property crash.

There have been reports that Irish Nationwide Building Society did not keep comprehensive records of the details of their loans. The previous chief executive officer, in effect, ran the bank as his own personal bank and he maintained the records himself. The bank had no one to assess the ability of borrowers to repay their loans. No underwriting of the loans took place and no basic banking principles were followed in that institution. The new register will go some way towards addressing the problem, which is good news overall, because we know what happened as a consequence of individuals running banks as their own personal institutions and the State was left to pick up the tab which is both unfair and unreasonable.

It is obviously important that a record is kept of large borrowers and high-value loans so that such credit histories can be accessed by any credit provider or financial institution. This new system will serve to build a record of overall borrowing in the State. The personal and credit information of individual borrowers and companies is to be held on the new register. At present, there is no statutory obligation on financial institutions to report credit data and no central repository for such data. The current credit rating system is provided by privately-run credit bureaus and only members are obliged to give information.

Section 5 of the Bill provides that the Central Bank will establish and maintain a database of credit and personal information on borrowers, to be known as the central credit register. A number of personal details will be captured on the system, including the name, address, date of birth, PPS number and telephone number of individual borrowers. The information captured for businesses will include the trading name, VAT number and the registration number issued by the Companies Registration Office. The system will also hold information on borrower's credit applications and credit agreements, including the nature and term of the credit, the rate of interest payable and the details of any guarantee or security on the loan. The register will mean that such information will be captured centrally for the very first time.

Section 9 of the Bill outlines the procedures for borrowers and lenders to apply for amendments to be made to the information held about them on the register if it is incomplete or incorrect. Borrowers will also be entitled to ask the Central Bank for a report on how many times information relating to them has been accessed in the previous five years and by whom. In this way, borrowers are being protected. They are being provided with an opportunity to change the data that is held centrally on them and to be updated on who is requesting that information. It is vital that borrowers are fully informed of their right to identify any incorrect information held on their file, to appeal and to have such information changed.

The Bill also includes measures to protect customers against identity fraud. It provides that lenders have a duty to notify borrowers if they suspect that they are being impersonated. Any details held on file about customers will be treated with the utmost confidentiality, with banks being penalised for the disclosure of confidential information, either by way of fines or imprisonment.

The fact that there was no central credit register in this country over many years meant that some individuals were able to take out multiple loans with various financial institutions and no-one had an overall picture of the level of their borrowings. The lack of a central register and abuses of the system of credit came back to haunt us, particularly when the credit bubble burst.

This is a sensible Bill, designed to help us to learn from the mistakes of the past and ensure they are not repeated in the future. The passing of this Bill is a requirement under the terms of our agreement with the EU-IMF programme of financial support. The troika pointed out that the quality and availability of the credit information at the disposal of credit providers in this country needed to be enhanced. The measures contained in this Bill will ensure that the mistakes made in our banking system will not occur again. The Bill will ensure a fairer and more transparent banking system in the future.

Had this Bill been introduced in 2000, no one would have disputed any aspect of it because it would have been introduced in more normal times. In principle, there is no problem with introducing a means of controlling credit. However, the new credit register will become a new worry for many people who are already overburdened with worries. It will place those people who are just about credit-worthy in the position of having to use the most expensive forms of credit, namely credit cards or money lenders. We are creating a statutory database and giving control of it to the very people we had to bail out; the very people who put some borrowers in the awful position they are in by pushing money at them, through 110% mortgages, allowing parents to guarantee mortgages for their children, providing students with completely unsustainable loans and so forth. In that context, the question of how this register is handled is a key issue. There must be safeguards in place for borrowers and a safety net for those who need to borrow money and who cannot do so because of this database. We must ask where people will get money in that situation. In an environment where there is less flexibility for community welfare officers, for example, one would be fearful for people in that position.

The credit register is being set up on a statutory basis and will be run by the Central Bank. Such a register would have been a very useful tool to control the level of personal indebtedness during that period when excess credit at low interest rates - which did not suit this country but suited countries such as Germany - was widely available. The high level of personal indebtedness was no secret during the boom years. In fact, it was referred to constantly at the time. It is not the current Government's fault that a mechanism such as this central credit register was not available then but it was a major oversight in terms of good governance and the role of the Central Bank. It is also part of the reason we have been left with this legacy. We must be mindful of the people who are trapped by the worst elements of that legacy and be careful about how they are treated. I am concerned by the lack of a counterbalance for such people.

The information contained in a credit register would have been invaluable to policy makers in terms of giving them exact information on the levels of personal indebtedness being built up in this country. Having said that, it was widely known that while our national debt was under control, our levels of personal indebtedness, as a result of the cost of housing, were growing exponentially.

I feel more than a little resentful that the very institutions whose lending behaviour was beyond reckless are now being given this resource and I am fearful about how they will use it. I cannot emphasise that point enough. An individual's credit worthiness is enormously important, particularly when there is little credit available and the lending environment is much more constrained. The register may provide banks with a reason to turn an applicant for credit down, especially if there is someone else in the queue for credit with a better credit rating. In that sense, it will be about the strong surviving and that is why the issue of a counterbalance must be examined.

We cannot pass a Bill such as the one before us without reflecting on issues such as the sub-prime mortgage lending that went on in recent years and the availability of 110% mortgages. We must also consider the position of parents who guaranteed the mortgages of their children.

The credit rating of both would be affected and perhaps neither will have a roof over their heads. The banks will extract the maximum possible from the arrangement. There is not two ways about it as the economy was handled between 2000 and 2007 to ensure that people felt they had money in their pocket so that the desired result could be delivered for the incumbent Government. The people who will be caught in the credit rating trap will be those who had their votes bought with fairy tales about what could be done.

The following issue may not be related to the legislation. The economy of this country and others is overseen by agencies like Moody's, Standard and Poor's and Fitch, which have made disastrous calls in the past. Those agencies gave our banks, including Anglo Irish Bank, AAA ratings but they can walk away after saying they merely made a mistake. The person who is looking at the guidelines produced today and who can see no way out except for the very public process of personal insolvency - a type of penury - cannot act in this way. There is a very real consequence for those people, and it seems that the agencies that are so lauded in the international capitalist community can get away without even being chastised. If we had a system where those agencies called it as it was and there was a restriction on personal indebtedness, we would not be in our current mess.

I am concerned about how this process will be used and I will give a separate issue as an example. There has been some mapping of flooding in the country, which is a great idea, as it will ensure we will not make the mistakes seen in the past in building on flood plains, etc. The problem is the mapping is being used by private insurance companies to refuse to insure people's houses where there has been flooding in the past. Something similar could happen when the process outlined in the Bill is in the hands of institutions that have been so hesitant in dealing with matters like mortgage debt or debt forgiveness, even when the Government has given a large amount of money to resolve such issues. They have not done it.

I know a case where a builder went bust but he is now back in action, with his son as the principal figure in the company. The builder in question is working away and offering to build houses. Credit ratings do not seem to affect such people in companies, which can reinvent themselves, but individuals cannot do this. The Government has a duty of care to see there is a system in place to ensure people are creditworthy, and it must deal with individuals and families trying to find a way out of their credit rating problems.

I believe we have had a very constructive debate on the importance of the Credit Reporting Bill, which will create the legislative framework for a central repository of credit information to be known as the central credit register. The register will go some way towards resolving what were identified as weaknesses in the Irish financial services industry by providing a tool which supports responsible borrowing and lending. It will assist the Central Bank in the supervisory role and also augment levels of consumer protection in respect of lending. I thank the Fianna Fáil and Sinn Féin parties, which have both provided their support for the Bill. I note that both Deputies Michael McGrath and Pearse Doherty will be bringing forward amendments on Committee Stage and we welcome their helpful contributions in the discussion of the Bill. We will be happy to discuss their proposed amendments on Committee Stage.

I will take this opportunity to respond to a number of the issues, proposals and queries raised during the debate before Easter. The question of when the register will come into operation was raised by a number of Deputies. I am unable to guarantee when this will happen as it depends on a number of factors, including when the legislation comes into force and also the length of time it will take for the database to be created. However, I can assure Deputies that we are working hard to have the register up and running without delay. The question of control of the data to be held on the register was also referenced by a number of Deputies. This is expressly why we have provided for strong controls in section 17 of the Bill, which outlines the purposes for which information on the register can be used, which would preclude the use of the information on the register by credit providers for marketing purposes, as was feared by some Deputies. Data protection concerns have been and continue to be of utmost importance during the development of this legislation and the Data Protection Commissioner has contributed to the Bill, ensuring that the rights of consumer are protected at all times.

In regard to the thresholds set by the Bill in sections 15 and 16, we are considering the contributions made by the Deputies. It is very important that we correctly strike a balance between trying to prevent a lender from avoiding having to check or report to the register and I would not like to make it overly bureaucratic by setting the threshold too low. This issue can be further discussed on Committee Stage.

Deputies McGrath and Doherty suggested that a widespread programme of consumer education could be conducted. This is something which I agree would benefit the consumer, particularly as the Deputies have highlighted the lack of awareness of the availability of consumer credit information. I agree it is very important that citizens are made aware of the register and what implications it will have. It is equally important for consumers to know that they have the ability to access a free copy of their credit report each year. Consumer awareness and education is imperative for the legislation to have the positive effect it is intended to have and this is a suggestion we will be following up on.

There are others issues which were raised before Easter which I have not responded to today. These issues will be teased out on Committee Stage. I reiterate the point that this Bill represents an opportunity to develop a responsible reporting structure that will benefit both borrower and lender and ensure lenders are in a position to make informed lending decisions. The register will help support our continued policy to combat the over-indebtedness in this country. I thank everybody who made a contribution to the debate and I urge Deputies to support the Credit Reporting Bill 2012. I commend the Bill to the House.

Question put and agreed to.
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