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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 19 Jun 2013

Vol. 807 No. 3

Thirty-second Amendment of the Constitution (Abolition of Seanad Éireann) Bill 2013: Second Stage (Resumed)

Thairg an Taoiseach an tairiscint seo ar an Déardaoin, 13 Meitheamh 2013:
Go léifear an Bille an Dara hUair anois.
The following motion was moved by the Taoiseach on Thursday, 13 June 2013:
That the Bill be now read a Second Time.
Atógadh an díospóireacht ar leasú a 1:
Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:
To delete all words after "that" and substitute "Dáil Éireann declines to give the Bill a second reading on the basis that it seeks to abolish Seanad Éireann without affording the opportunity to reform Seanad Éireann as set out in the Seanad (No. 2) Bill 2013".
(Deputy Shane Ross).

The Government is on the cusp of introducing the biggest package of political reform since the passing of the Constitution in 1937. It has already introduced changes in parliamentary procedures, gender quota legislation and political funding. Previous Governments promised for years to reform the way in which we conduct our business. I genuinely hope that the difference this time is that the Government will deliver.

The Seanad was created in its current form in the 1937 Constitution. It was inspired by the idea of corporatism, which is the belief that voters should not be organised in groups according to geography, as in the Dáil but on the basis of occupation. Much of the rationale for the inclusion of the Seanad in Bunreacht na hÉireann has ceased to be relevant over time. Serious questions must be asked about the continued role of an entity which is still struggling to justify its existence after three quarters of a century. For 75 years, political insiders have discussed and debated Seanad reform, with ten reports published, not one of which was implemented in any way, shape or form.

In the context of the Government proposal to abolish the Seanad and deliberations of the Constitutional Convention, there has been much discussion on Dáil reform. Countries across the world have, at one time or another, wrestled with the question of how to design political institutions that best support an open, stable and prosperous society governed by the rule of law. In 1987, the Progressive Democrats Party promised it would "terminate" the Seanad. The former Minister, Michael McDowell, who has since experienced a lightbulb moment and become a supporter of the Seanad, stated in the past that the Seanad had been "largely used as an ante room to Dáil Éireann, to house would-be newcomers, temporary absentees, and as a consolation prize for those who had lost their seats". These are Mr. McDowell's words, not mine.

Ireland is one of a small and declining band of small non-federal states to have a second chamber. The Seanad, as currently constituted, has little role in or influence over politics or the legislative process. While there have been great Senators, debates and speeches, individuals such as Mary Robinson and Jim Dooge and many others who graced the Seanad over the years did not need the platform of the Upper House.

Let us consider the most crucial issue, the essential difference between the Dáil and Seanad, namely, the former is elected by the people whereas the Seanad is not. Under the current model, almost 20% of Senators are appointed rather than elected - hardly a model of representative democracy. While there are ostensibly a number of outside nominating bodies to ensure vocational interests are represented, no candidate put forward by any of those bodies has a snowball's chance in hell of being elected unless he or she has acceptable party political credentials.

While everyone may be different in their economic or individual lives, when citizens stand before the political institutions of this State and vote they must be treated equally. The Seanad fails that test completely. Most citizens have only one vote in a general election. Thanks to the Seanad system, it is possible for some individuals to have eight votes. For example, in addition to voting in elections to the Dáil, a person who is an NUI and Trinity College graduate will have two votes. If he or she happens to be a Deputy or county councillor, he or she will also have five votes for the vocational panels. This is hardly democratic. The notion of a separate panel for university graduates, which is written into the Constitution, is an accident of history which has no place in a modern democracy. There is agreement on one issue, namely, the need for reform, and the Government, under the Taoiseach, is ensuring we get reform.

Throughout its history, the Seanad has rarely added democratic value. The healthiest development in respect of this debate would be if it were to focus attention on the need to give meaning and life to the Dáil. A major element in the argument of the "No" campaign is that we need the Seanad to provide a system of checks and balances. While there is no doubt that we desperately need checks and balances in our system, the Seanad has never acted as a check or balance in the system because it was not designed to do so. On the contrary, it was designed to mirror party support in the Dáil. This was made possible by the provision for the Taoiseach to make 11 appointees to the Upper House. Every Seanad has reflected the composition of the Dáil, which has meant that all legislation introduced by the Government in the Dáil received support in the Seanad.

Other systems, such as those in place in Denmark, Finland and New Zealand, the three longest established democracies, have shown it is possible to introduce checks and balances in a single chamber parliament. However, the issue of whether a parliament should have a second chamber is only one aspect of parliamentary design. The presence or absence of a second chamber cannot determine whether a parliament will be an effective democratic institution. A parliament's procedural arrangements can remove the need for a second chamber.

Dáil reform is crucial and not merely an added extra. A radical overhaul of the committee system will be required to make it more independent. A new legislative system must allow for greater and closer scrutiny of key legislation.

A comprehensive committee system can take care of the second Chamber review function. Last week, the Taoiseach said measures will to be introduced to improve the working of the Dáil to ensure proper accountability and oversight, and I have every faith that will happen.

The Bill is part of real political change. Parliaments need to be designed to ensure they are a constant, credible and legitimate check on Government. The Government is giving us the opportunity for this. The recent past has shown us all too painfully the dangers of bad Government. We deserve more so let us get it.

This is a very important Bill and part of the programme for Government between our two parties. The difference between the election to Seanad Éireann and the referendum on abolishing it as the 32nd amendment to the Constitution is striking. Unlike the election to the Seanad, a referendum allows every Irish citizen over the age of 18 to have a vote and a say.

The Seanad, as is, is obsolete. It was originally designed as a body to allow non-Catholics and non-republicans to have a role, which was appropriate at that time. Nowadays the Dáil is much more pluralist. Indeed, the composition of the Dáil since 2011 reflects much more equally society in terms of gender, sexual orientation and religion, much more so than would have been the case in the past.

The Bill deals with two topics: the democratic deficit of the Seanad and whether we need a second Chamber. Regarding the democratic deficit, to have an Upper House in the 21st century where the majority of people do not have a say in the election of the Members cannot be defended. Even the people who want to retain the Seanad have not actually defended the status quo. A House of Parliament that is neither directly nor democratically elected has no place in a modern parliamentary democracy. While I support the Bill, I do not intend to belittle any existing Senator who wants to see the Seanad retained. Nor should my views be seen as a reflection on present or past Members of the Seanad. I do not want to be dismissive of or be seen to undermine in any way the many fine parliamentarians who have spent a period of time in the Seanad. However, Deputies are democratically elected and have a democratic mandate, whereas Senators in most cases do not. It is indefensible that small sections of the population have a vote or votes to one House of Parliament. Why would local authority members, Deputies and graduates of certain universities have preferential treatment in terms of having an electoral mandate over other sections of the population?

If it is accepted that there is a democratic deficit, the question then arises as to whether the franchise should be extended. Should we have two democratically elected Houses of Parliament, in many ways competing with each other? In other countries, this has led to political stalemate and legislative paralysis. Many campaigners to save the Seanad also bemoan the slow pace of legislative enactment. Having two directly elected Chambers as well as being a waste of money could lead to legislative gridlock, particularly if different parties have control of each House. As Deputy Regina Doherty said, I note the conversion of many commentators who in a previous incarnation stood on a pro-abolition platform and now are anti-abolition.

There has been the contention - inaccurate in my mind - that this is a power grab and that future governments will use this to push through draconian legislation, representing a threat to democracy or a step towards dictatorship. Of course, this is preposterous and ludicrous. It is nothing short of hysterics and has a certain hollowness to it. As a small country, if we were starting out with no Parliament and deciding how to run our affairs, would we really consider establishing a second Chamber? Other similarly sized countries manage perfectly fine without it and we have seen a successful transition from bicameral to unicameral parliaments in other countries without descent into anarchy or dictatorship.

Having said that, as many other Deputies have said, we need real Dáil reform to change how Dáil Éireann works and to strengthen the Oireachtas committees. The formal pre-legislative scrutiny of the heads of Bills, a pre-enactment stage by an Oireachtas committee and 12-monthly reviews are all part of the plans. If the people decide to abolish the Seanad, we need real and immediate Dáil reform. If the people decide not to abolish it, we still need reform of the Seanad and this should be done by public consultation as soon as possible. One strengthened and reformed House would be more effective than the current arrangement, and the Bill paves the way for that.

I am delighted to speak on this Bill because it addresses one of the promises we made in our programme for Government. We have been criticised by the people for not dealing with this earlier, but we have had a very busy referendum schedule so far, including referenda on the stability treaty and children's rights. This will also be a very important referendum because it will form a key part of the political reform we promised the people.

Part of the agenda for reform is to have a smaller and more effective government. We have already agreed to reduce the number of Deputies by eight. Reducing by more would not have been possible without a referendum. The Minister, Deputy Hogan, has arranged to reduce the number of councillors by 60. He has amalgamated local authorities and continues to streamline organisations to provide a more effective government. This will be the first change in the local authority structure since 1937. The Minister, Deputy Hogan, has been very brave in his reform agenda and I commend him on this.

The Bill is about whether we allow the people to have a referendum on the future of the Seanad. Ultimately, it is up to the people to decide whether they believe a second Chamber is a necessary part of our democratic system. When this Bill passes, we will have to await the decision of the people by way of referendum. This will change the Constitution if passed. The Government is trying to achieve a smaller, more streamlined and effective government.

Our political system was inherited from the UK and we are a much smaller nation. A country such as Denmark, which is similar in size, has a unicameral system of government. The important thing here is that the people will decide. Arguing about the past is a waste of our good time. Deciding on the future is something that everyone can be a part of with the people deciding in a referendum.

Some statistics are worth noting. In January 2012, the Secretary General of the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission informed the Committee of Public Accounts that if the Seanad was abolished, there would be an immediate cost saving of €9.2 million per year. He also estimated that there would be €13.3 million in indirect savings which relate to support costs to the State. Therefore, a total saving of €22.5 million would be made per year.

When estimating costs, we must compare those with the power and effectiveness of the Seanad. The Seanad has rejected two Bills since 1939, and in both cases the Dáil subsequently overturned the Senators' decision. The Seanad has produced some good amendments to various Bills which have been accepted by Governments over the years. However, most amendments introduced in the Seanad have been Government amendments. This situation could be dealt with by a more robust committee system.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy recently published proposals to reform the Dáil. His proposals focused on changes to the committee system, including the establishment of a new committee for budgeting oversight and scrutiny of legislation. This approach, together with the Government proposals, shows how a unicameral system would work.

The Taoiseach has described the abolition of the Seanad in terms of a sacrifice by the political system, one that politicians should make when so many other people are making huge sacrifices. He specifically pointed to New Zealand, Denmark, Norway and Finland as successful countries with similar populations. They all have only one House. Ireland simply is too small and we need reform at all levels. The passage of this Bill will give power to the democratic process and, ultimately, the people will decide the future. I commend the Bill to the House.

I call Deputy Stanley, who is sharing time with Deputy Colreavy.

I am glad to have the opportunity to make a contribution. The previous speaker mentioned statistics and I want to mention other statistics. She mentioned Denmark. Following the local government reforms here, Denmark will have five times the number of local authority members per head of population that we will have in this State. It also has strong local government with real powers devolved to local level and not centralised in the bunker in the Custom House.

We are debating an amendment to the Constitution relating to the Seanad but, in parallel, the Constitutional Convention is debating issues including the future of the Seanad. We believe that is the rightful place for this debate. There should be reform - we agree with the Government on that. One cannot defend what is in place and I will not even try to, but for the Government to introduce this proposed amendment to the Constitution smacks of desperation and arrogance. Why is it fearful? Why not let the convention debate, discuss and make these proposals? It is sitting at the moment.

The Government was elected a little over two years ago and one of its promises was reform, but what have we had to date? It has been piecemeal, with Friday morning sittings, proposals to centralise power and evidence of more power being centralised at the Cabinet table. What we have before us is not reform but abolition. Reform is defined as making changes to something, typically a social, political or economic institution or practice, in order to improve it. Certainly, the proposal before us will not make changes to improve the Seanad; it will simply shut it down. It is a lazy headline-grabbing option that was trotted out in the middle of an election campaign.

Not for one moment will I defend the Seanad as it currently stands. As a republican I simply could not do so. Since 1928 there have been 12 separate official reports published on the reform of the Seanad. There is plenty of evidence and information on how best to reform the Upper House of the Oireachtas. In its current form it is elitist and undemocratic. The last speaker is correct in that it does not reflect modern Ireland. It is a throwback to an Ireland of long ago. As a county councillor I had the equivalent of 1,000 votes five times over. There was one vote for each of the panels and that was worth 1,000 votes in a general election. That is a totally undemocratic system.

Given all the headlines about the Seanad, one would be forgiven for thinking that it was the cause of every ill that has befallen this State of ours. The Taoiseach would have us believe that it is the cause of the economic recession and the banking crisis and everything else from dole queues and emigration to overpriced property. He would have us believe that to shut it down and throw away the key would somehow be like waving a magic wand and that all our problems would go away. Rather, our problems are the fault of light-touch regulation in banking and construction and developers, crooked politicians, councillors and Ministers. However, to examine all of those areas would be painful because it would mean previous Governments would have to take responsibility for the crisis in which we find ourselves.

I maintain the Government is cynically using the current economic crisis to force through many of its proposals, including the shutting down of the Seanad. Let us look behind the smokescreen and the screaming headlines. We can see a Government attempting to centralise power more and more around the Cabinet table.

Last October, the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Hogan, launched Putting People First, claiming it would be "the most fundamental set of reforms in local government in the history of the State". However, nowhere in the 198 pages of the document does the Government outline what powers will be devolved. It refers to devolving functions rather than powers. Since the launch of Putting People First, the Government has shut several tiers of local government. We support reform because the structures in place are not fit for purpose. However, town and borough councils are gone, reducing the number of council seats from 1,627 to 949. In my county, Laois, the number of councillors has gone from 43 to 19. The system needs reform but as things stand we will end up with local electoral areas that are 50 or 60 miles in length and breadth in some cases. I understand there is one in the Minister's county of Kerry that is closer to a stretch of 100 miles. One of the Minister's party colleagues told me about it.

The void left behind will not be filled by stronger local government. Instead, there will be fewer councillors covering huge wards with less funding to meet the needs of the public they serve. I believe the Government is not interested in real reform; it is interested in centralising power around the men in grey suits. I gather there are four of them.

I will outline what we should be doing. We are keen to see the maximum possible reform, but reform must be real rather than some populist headline-grabbing statements. Sinn Féin believes the reform programme should be guided by the key principles of democracy, accountability, devolution to local government and stronger public services. These principles must be the cornerstone on top of which we can build a national all-Ireland democracy. That is what we should be building. The democracy we have in mind is participative and would be rooted in our communities. Certainly, the Seanad does not represent that. Our democracy would reflect a new Ireland. The reformed structures should be fit for purpose and should be accountable to those they serve. They should have the confidence of the public. At the moment the Seanad does none of that. If we were to have a reformed Seanad, it should be elected by universal suffrage, by every resident on the island, North and South, over 16 years of age. Suffrage should not stop at Dundalk or Lifford. Everyone in the Thirty-two Counties should have the opportunity to vote for a new reformed Seanad once they are over 16 years of age. The debate on how we should reform the structures must be informed and balanced and alternatives must be explored. What we have before us is ill-informed and stunted. That is why the Constitutional Convention should be used.

Reference was made to other jurisdictions where there is a single chamber, but they have strong regional and local government and accountability. In those states there tends to be a greater division between the executive, the cabinet and the legislature, the equivalent of the Dáil in this country. However, in this State we have seen time and again how the Government has railroaded Bills through and guillotined Bills. We have seen how the gang of four calls the shots.

The debate on the future of the Seanad must be part of an overall debate and a national conversation about reforming the democratic structures of the State. I notice that some people on the Government benches have referred to that as well and I welcome that. Anyway, we must reform this Chamber as well. This is about putting proper accountable democratic structures in place in the Dáil and in any new Seanad. I would go as far as to say that we should have a national conversation about the structures we want to have in a new united Ireland. As a republican I am keen to see a united Ireland with a national democracy delivering for all the people. This is why I believe a first step should be to give people in the Six Counties a vote in any new reformed Seanad.

To abolish the Seanad, town councils and borough councils, to reduce the number of councillors and Deputies, to take away further powers from local government - for example, water will be dealt with by the new water body - amounts to disenfranchising the public and taking local and national government further away from people. It is alienating people. I am flagging it for the Government. We have seen it before our eyes over the past ten or 15 years. I passionately believe that these changes are alienating people from politics and decision-making. It is undemocratic and I do not believe it is healthy. This debate is in the wrong place. It should be taking place at the Constitutional Convention first. We should allow a more full and robust debate about democratic structures in the State and throughout the island.

It is very unfair to present the case this way. One must vote either to abolish it or to retain it. I am keen to see it reformed and I am keen to see a proper accountable Seanad elected by universal suffrage. This is an unfortunate development and what we are doing may actually be seen as a wasted opportunity. The members of Fine Gael did not even know that the Taoiseach, Deputy Enda Kenny, was going to say what he said that night. They were taken by surprise. Deputies and councillors who are members of the main Government party said as much to me at the time. This is not well thought out. A commitment was given and the Government may wish to stick to it, but the Government should have another look at this and at the least put forward a third option of serious reform.

Up to ten years ago I would have been one of the people calling for the abolition of the Seanad, for many of the reasons that the speakers in the debate have already addressed. However, since then, during this past ten years and particularly since I came to the House two years ago - it is certainly not that I have gone native - I have seen how governance works and I have come to the view that the Seanad in its current form should be abolished, but that any abolition or reform must be done only as an integral and agreed aspect of reform of governance generally in the State.

It is beyond question that we need substantial reform of governance in this State. If we take that as being true, then the key question as we debate the Bill is whether the abolition rather than reform of the Seanad would bring about the much-needed reform of governance. It would not. If we are serious about reform of government we must start with Dáil Éireann.

We have had a number of upper chambers in Irish parliamentary history. The current Seanad Éireann has been the longest-serving institution. It arose from the 1937 Constitution, Bunreacht na hÉireann, which was written by the then Taoiseach, Éamon de Valera. The system of elections via vocational panels was a sop by the then Taoiseach, Mr. de Valera, to those who wished to see corporatism introduced to Ireland as a means of government organisation. Historians reckon that de Valera had very little interest in granting corporatism any real power, but the formation of the Seanad under such a system satisfied those who wished to see it introduced in this country. Corporatism was a political system that had found much favour in Mussolini's fascist Italy, and was promoted by the Catholic Church as an alternative to the class interpretation of society. The idea behind corporatism was that various panels that represented different sectoral interests in society would come together to arrive at a political consensus. That was in contrast to the parliamentary system with which we are most familiar, which in the early 20th century was seen as being divided too much along left and right lines. The problem then and now with the corporatist system was that it always came out in favour of the side of the establishment and the voice of the working class in particular was silenced.

Is it any wonder that we have a Seanad that is not up to scratch? The Seanad is not fit for purpose. It is undemocratic, elitist and has no clear and distinct function. It is a small mirror image of the Dáil. There is no universal franchise and there is elitism in terms of how people are elected. Some citizens have several votes, while many others have none. The Seanad as it exists today is an unrepresentative body. While the aim of corporatism was to reflect different of views in society, the Seanad is an example of how theory does not necessarily work in practice. Instead of representing minority views, it represents the elite and the powerful. As an undemocratic, elitist body it has revealed itself as being largely irrelevant to Irish society. People have not viewed the Seanad as a repository of the views of ordinary people, instead it reflects a debating society in a third level institution.

Sinn Féin believes that we should be able to have a parliament that is fair, equal and representative of the people. One could ask whether today's Parliament reflects Irish society as a whole. If one were to stand on O'Connell Street today and pick 226 people to form an assembly, one could ask whether it would look like the current Dáil or the Seanad. I very much doubt it would. The truth of the matter is that most of the Members elected to both Houses - I include myself - are white, middle class, middle-aged men. We are the representatives of the people, yet we only reflect a small proportion of modern Irish society. One could ask how we could expect to produce legislation or debate issues of national importance if most of the Members come from the same social strata. Have we really progressed all that far from the time when parliaments were composed of large land owners?

A reformed Seanad could have the opportunity to right some of the wrongs. We must hear the views of ethnic minorities, gay, lesbian and transgender people, Travellers, people with disabilities, the young, the old and families. It is debatable whether we would have cut funding to youth services or the mobility allowance if we had greater diversity in these Houses. Likewise, one could ask whether we would be as slow to legalise same-sex marriage or recognise the rights of ethnic groups if those who really understood the impact of such measures had a voice in Parliament.

Were it reformed, the Seanad could also scrutinise legislation and instigate Bills to give it actual rather than fictional power. We must not forget the importance of checks and balances when legislation comes before these Chambers. The more people scrutinise legislation, the greater the chance that errors will be picked up, unintended consequences identified and improvements proposed for consideration. The Government's entire approach to political reform has at best been haphazard. It appears that the real motive behind many of the so-called reforms are in fact power grabs, grabbing democratic control into the Cabinet or within the cabinet into the Economic Management Council. A reduction in the number of Deputies and the further removal of power from local government is only a pretence of political reform. What is masqueraded as political reform at local government level is simply a different way for local government to collect ever-greater revenues for central government. It is not political reform. Something far more fundamental is required.

Sinn Féin aims to create a new republic. We are in favour of real political reform, opening up the whole political system, and making it answerable to the people, not the kind of cosmetic and illusionary political reform we have seen from the Government. That includes constitutional reform, for which we have argued at the Constitutional Convention. We have argued for more than that. We want reform of the Oireachtas as a whole. Let nobody pretend that the Dáil does not need reform.

The Government is using the Seanad debate as a smokescreen to cover up for a lack of real political reform. If the Seanad were to be abolished, we would still be left with a deeply dysfunctional Dáil, a weak system of local government and a Legislature dominated by the Executive. That is not democracy. I look forward to real political reform in Ireland but I do not believe it will come from the Government. What is desperately needed is a Parliament that is representative of all the people of the island, not just the elite. Reform of the Dáil and of the Seanad is needed and the current modus operandi of the Government will not lead to any real or substantial change in people's lives. We all agree reform of governance in this country is badly needed. It must start with Dáil Éireann. Even at this stage I urge the Government to refer the issue to the Constitutional Convention.

I was about to leave the Chamber as I presumed the time was up. I welcome the legislation which will start the process for a referendum on the future of Seanad Éireann. Much has already been said on the issue and I have no doubt that much more will be said on the Seanad before the referendum is concluded. I am pleased that the process is now formally under way. The Government is providing the ultimate public debate in the form of a long public referendum campaign between now and early October when we can have a national discussion on the future of the Seanad. Those in favour of retaining the Seanad would have to agree that the present Seanad is simply not up to the job of acting as the Upper House.

Cuireadh an díospóireachat ar athló.
Debate adjourned.
The Dáil adjourned at 10 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 20 June 2013.
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