Topical Issue Debate

Magdalen Laundries Issues

Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan

Táim buíoch as an deis labhairt ar an ábhar seo anocht agus as deis a fháil ceisteanna a chur agus, tá súil agam, freagraí a fháil. I am grateful that this topic has been chosen tonight.

The time for speeches is over and I will not be making a speech as such. I will be as brief as I can be.

The Department of Justice and Equality stated on 25 June last, as reported on 21 October in a newspaper, that the Government, on 25 June, approved the immediate implementation of a cash lump-sum payment scheme based on duration of stay in laundries recommended by Mr. Justice John Quirke and tasked an interdepartmental group with giving further detailed consideration to the steps necessary to implement the other recommendations, some of which are complex and will require legislation. The Department stated that more than 150 applications had been received and were being processed and that it was expected that the first offers of payment of a lump sum would issue within four to six weeks of the Government decision. That was similar to the reply I received from the Minister in September to a question.

I will make one point before I ask the question. Since the apology of February last two of the ladies from the laundries have passed away and as of today, Tuesday, 5 November, no woman who has been in a laundry has received the lump-sum payment or any other entitlement.

I noted that the Minister for Finance stated in the Budget Statement that the lump sums would be tax free. I would have assumed that such was a given.

We all have feelings of compassion and understanding of what went on in the laundries. I acknowledge that under this Government more has been progressed than at any other time but I want to know about the Government decision. Has it been made? If not, when will it be made so that one can then count the four to six weeks from that decision. That is the basic question I want to put to the Minister and I would prefer to use the time for his reply.

Minister for Justice and Equality (Deputy Alan Shatter)

I thank Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan for raising this important matter and for giving me the opportunity to speak on the issue.

The House will be aware that the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, and I announced a scheme of lump sum payments on 26 June 2013 for women who were admitted to and worked in the Magdalen laundries, St. Mary's Training Centre, Stanhope Street, and House of Mercy Training School, Summerhill, Wexford. This followed the publication of the report by Mr. Justice Quirke, President of the Law Reform Commission, on the establishment of an ex-gratia scheme and a comprehensive range of supports for the women involved. As the Deputy mentioned, the Government tasked an interdepartmental group with giving further detailed consideration to the steps necessary to implement the other recommendations in Mr. Justice Quirke's report.

Pending completion of that report, arrangements were put in place in my Department to invite and process applications from the women involved. To date, more than 600 application forms have been received and more than 250 of these have been processed to an advanced stage.

The report of the interdepartmental group was discussed and the final details of the scheme agreed at Cabinet this morning. Full details of the scheme will published over the next few days.

The payment of lump sums, as recommended by Mr. Justice Quirke, will be made by my Department. In cases where application forms have been completed and records verified and subject to the clarification of a few legal issues by the Office of the Attorney General, I expect that my Department will be in a position to issue the first offers of payments within the next four to six weeks. The Deputy now has the date.

The provision of other benefits, including weekly payments from the Department of Social Protection and medical services to be provided through the Department of Health, will be dependent on the introduction of administrative and legislative measures. Work has already commenced on these measures and they will be progressed as soon as possible. So that no individual is prejudiced by the time required to give effect to the Government's decision, weekly payments to be made pursuant to the scheme are to be backdated to 1 August 2013.

As announced in the budget, these ex-gratia lump-sum payments will be exempt from income tax as well as the weekly payments, and this will be provided for in the Finance Bill. It had to be provided for in the Finance Bill. It could not have happened without express provision.

Mr. Justice Quirke recommended that as a precondition of receiving benefits under the scheme, the women concerned should sign a waiver not to take proceedings against the State. Before signing the waiver, the women will be encouraged to receive independent legal advice. Applicants will be facilitated to engage their own choice of solicitor and will be provided with a maximum amount from the State of €500 plus VAT as a contribution to the cost of obtaining legal advice on the signing of the waiver.

I am pleased that payments of the lump sums will commence shortly and as already stated, full details of the scheme will be published over the next few days.

It was particularly appropriate that the Deputy raised the matter for today. She was very prescient. The matter was pending to be dealt with by Cabinet and has been dealt with today. There is a formal announcement being made on foot of the Cabinet decision and, of course, I am very anxious that we progress matters further. There remains a considerable number of applications to be dealt with still. There are also various verification procedures to be dealt with.

The final issue the Deputy raised was the passing away of two individuals. It is envisaged under Mr. Justice Quirke's scheme that if someone passed away between the time of the announcement of the scheme and the lump sums becoming payable, a payment would be made to the estate of the individual concerned.

Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan

I very much welcome what the Minister stated so that the countdown can begin from today. His point about the independent legal advice that the women can get is an important one.

I have another question. There have been discrepancies between the McAleese report and Mr. Justice Quirke's report, particularly on physical abuse of the ladies and duration of stay. I note in the McAleese report that 61% of those he interviewed were in the laundries less than one year but 58% of the admissions were not recorded in his findings, whereas in Mr. Justice Quirke's report there were 27% whose length of stay was less than one year. According to Mr. Justice Quirke's report, the length of stay of 68% of those with whom he spoke was one to five years, of 13% was five to ten years and of 9% was ten years or more. Given those discrepancies regarding length of stay and the issue of physical abuse, will the Minister be committed to holding an independent forum for survivors so that they can offer testimony regarding the length of stay and the physical abuse that they suffered?

Deputy Alan Shatter

Many of the former residents of the Magdalen homes very much welcomed the engagement of former Senator McAleese. They very much welcomed the careful consideration and sensitive engagement that he had with them. They were generally very pleased with the report that was published.

Many of them do not want to revisit this issue. They were anxious that the State accept its responsibilities. The Taoiseach, on behalf of the State, apologised for the suffering that they experienced and our focus now is on implementing the scheme for their benefit. We do not believe there is anything additional that would be beneficial to anyone that can be achieved by further inquiries to individuals who have been through stress in their lives again being required in some way to recount past events.

Former Senator McAleese conducted a careful investigation. In the context of what the Deputy says as between Mr. Justice Quirke and former Senator McAleese, it was not Mr. Justice Quirke's job to investigate the background to the Magdalen laundries.

What Mr. Justice Quirke was asked to do, based on the findings of Professor McAleese, was to propose the most appropriate ex gratia scheme that could be put in place to assist the women concerned. He had contact with numbers of them, but he was not asked nor did he attempt to make a definitive decision on the exact percentage of women who had experienced different difficulties. Of course, the issue in the context of the scheme is that the women concerned have to establish two things: first, that they were in either one of the Magdalen laundries or the other two institutions; and, second, the length of time spent in these institutions. The sisters involved are co-operating fully in providing all of the necessary records in an effort to establish and verify timeframes. This is being done in respect of over 250 applicants. The information is available for the processing of some of these applications. There will be a difficulty with a small number of women in cases where records are imperfect. There may well be some disagreement about the length of time involved, but I am advised by my officials that this has not yet emerged as a significant difficulty. We deal with matters in a sensitive and as careful a way as possible, bearing in mind the difficulties all of the women experienced during their lives.

Northern Ireland Issues

Deputy Brendan Smith

I appreciate that the Minister is present to deal with this very important matter. Last night we witnessed a harrowing programme which chronicled the bleak tale of the disappeared, the silent witnesses to some of the grimmest and most cynical crimes in that troubled time. Sons, brothers, husbands, fathers and mothers were ruthlessly taken from their families in the dark of night on the orders of self-appointed local warlords. Some were barely old enough to shave before they disappeared into the depths of an IRA conspiracy. The gaping hole the abrupt, shock absence of these men and women left in their families' lives is a legacy with which they still struggle today. RTE and BBC did a valuable public service in producing this documentary which dealt in great detail with these awful murders and devastated families.

Jean McConville, a mother of ten, trying to make ends meet in desperate circumstances in west Belfast, was executed and disappeared on the orders of the Belfast IRA commander. The family unit was shattered and siblings were separated from one another. We have yet to hear the IRA leadership of that time deal in any appropriate way with a response, if there is such a thing when one is dealing with murder. It has very serious questions to deal with arising from this callous murder.

The family of Kevin McKee still linger with a sad regret over a final telephone call from their brother before he went silent forever. The searing testimony of Charlie Armstrong's widow, whose loss is still so raw and so painful to watch even after all the years, is a sharp reminder of the devastating impact these crimes have had on the families of the men and women who were murdered and submerged in a web of IRA lies and propaganda. Mrs. Armstrong's quiet dignity and strength as she visited the grave of her husband last night stood in stark contrast to the weasel words of Deputy Gerry Adams and others, as they even now try to muddy the waters. These victims' disappearance was compounded by the vicious malevolent rumour mill that attempted to cast aspersions on their characters and or to give false hope to bereft families. The IRA still refuses to accept responsibility for the murders and legitimate questions are not answered.

Since its establishment in 1999 in the aftermath of the Good Friday Agreement and enactment following referendums in the North and the South, the Independent Commission for the Location of Victims' Remains has been working on the lonely task of securing a just outcome for the disappeared. The remains of Joe Lynskey, Kevin McKee, Columba McVeigh, Seamus Wright, Captain Robert Nairac, Brendan Megraw and Seamus Ruddy are all lying unmarked in the ground somewhere in the Irish countryside. There are people who know where they are buried. Some of them are now in prominent public positions in Irish life. There is a heavy moral obligation on those who know to act on that knowledge. The families deserve to be made whole even at this late stage. The prevarication of the IRA and its fellow travellers in identifying the victims for whom they were responsible is a damning indictment of the moral judgment shown by that organisation. The weight of history is a heavy burden in this country. Shallow graves in desolate bogs, on lonely beaches and down distant country lanes are a testament to that burden. The victims' families are left with that dark legacy. Contrary to what Deputy Gerry Adams and others would now like to claim, everyone in the North does not share responsibility for what happened there. While the IRA organisation, from top to bottom, was intent on destruction, families in Nationalist communities across the North were resisting its campaign of terror, bringing up families and trying to earn a living in peace.

I trust that the Government will continue to give full assistance and every necessary support to the independent commission as it continues its work. I hope all Members of this House will rise to their moral responsibility to help the families, even at this very late stage.

Deputy Alan Shatter

I thank the Deputy for raising this issue. I am very aware of his long-standing interest in it. There is nothing in his contribution with which I disagree. Individuals in Northern Ireland were the victims of terrible atrocities, for which there can be no excuse of any description or any political justification. Over the course of the conflict in Northern Ireland a number of people were murdered and buried secretly by paramilitary organisations, mainly the Provisional IRA. They have become known as the disappeared, as have others on other continents and in other countries who were treated similarly. This was a brutal practice, not alone the commission of kidnap and murder but also the further, profound injustice inflicted on the families of the people who were killed. Those responsible for the murder of the innocents and concealing their remains simply have no moral compass and there can be no moral justification for their conduct. The families, whose raw grief was once again highlighted in last night's television documentary which I watched, have had a peculiarly cruel tragedy visited on them; they not only lost their loved ones to murder but also for many decades did not even know of their fate and had no graveside at which to grieve.

I have met the victims' families and pay tribute to their dignity and fortitude in the face of their suffering. Too many have had false hopes when it was thought that remains might be found, only to discover that the information furnished had proved to be inaccurate. Once again, I extend my deepest sympathy to them on their loss and assure them of my continuing support for their efforts to recover their loved ones. The Taoiseach also met the families in July and assured them of the Government's continued support for them and its commitment to this humanitarian process. Those who were involved in these callous acts of disappearance should be keenly conscious of the abhorrent nature of what they have done. They should also feel the strongest moral obligation to do all they can to try to right the wrong done to the victims and their families.

The Independent Commission for the Location of Victims' Remains was established in 1999 by the Irish and British Governments and will continue to be supported by the two Governments. It was one of a key set of actions aimed at addressing the suffering of the victims of violence as a necessary element of reconciliation. In its work the commission is not involved in making moral judgments on those who ordered or participated in such appallingly brutal acts. It is responsible for facilitating the location of the remains of the disappeared and its sole objective is to return the remains of the victims to their families in order that they can receive a decent burial and the families will have a grave at which to grieve and remember. In this way, the families may, in some measure at least, achieve resolution or closure in regard to the deaths of their loved ones.

The Independent Commission for the Location of Victims' Remains has received co-operation from many sources, including from many in the organisations responsible, over the course of its work in locating the victims' remains.

However, as there are still seven victims on the commission's list whose remains have not yet been found, we have to constantly see if more can be done. The commission needs further information to be able to progress its investigations and this is the only resource that is missing. I appeal, therefore, to anybody anywhere who has information that might assist the commission to provide that information, in confidence, so that it can be acted upon. The Independent Commission for the Location of Victims' Remains operates a confidential telephone line and post office box and details can be found on its website. Nobody has anything to fear by providing information, and information provided to the commission is guaranteed the strictest confidence and can only be used for the purpose of locating and recovering the victims' remains. The families have endured for long enough. Although some of them have had the remains of their loved ones returned to them, there are others who still wait and who still suffer to this very day. That suffering was clearly apparent in last night's programme. There can be absolutely no excuse for those who have information to withhold it and for the sake of common human decency they should provide that information without delay. Both RTE and the BBC should be congratulated on the programme broadcast last night for yet again detailing the plight of the families, the suffering being endured and the need to ensure missing information can be furnished.

Deputy Brendan Smith

I welcome the Minister's very clear statement and he summed up very well the significant grief and anguish felt by so many families. As he noted, the request of these families is very small, and with courage and dignity they have outlined very clearly that they want a final resting place for loved ones where they can lay flowers and say a prayer. We should all recognise that these are simple requests, and people with knowledge of the location of these victims, who were murdered in horrific circumstances, must come forward and give every possible assistance to the commission. Time is definitely on nobody's side.

For what is probably the first time in my 21 years in this House, I am wearing an emblem or badge. It is the badge supporting the families of the disappeared. I was a very close friend and colleague of the first commissioner, Mr. John Wilson, who was a former Tánaiste, and as the Minister, Deputy Shatter, has noted, I am familiar with the work of the commission from its early days. I was appraised in general rather than specific terms and I knew from the word go of the terrible anguish felt by the families and the simple requests made by them when a loved one had been lost in horrific circumstances. They requested the return of the body so they could have some type of closure. That is a bad phrase but they just want a place to lay flowers, say a prayer and have a final resting place for loved ones.

Perhaps we in the House should have a debate to keep this issue in the public mind, and maybe some of the people with relevant knowledge will come forward and assist the commission in its very difficult work. I do not underestimate the difficulty involved but, as I reiterate, time is on nobody's side.

Deputy Alan Shatter

I will briefly join Deputy Smith in making a few comments. Anybody - either outside or inside the House - with any information or influence over those with information should use that information or influence. We and all right-thinking people are at one in our view that ending the suffering of the families who await the remains of loved ones must be a priority. The commission has had the support of the Irish and British Governments since its establishment and will continue to have that support. The officials in my Department who provide the secretariat function maintain almost daily contact with the commission and their counterparts in the Northern Ireland office. The commission's most recent operation was in search of the remains of Columba McVeigh at Bragan Bog in County Monaghan, and it concluded in September 2012, unfortunately without success. However, the commission remains ready to act on any credible new information or evidence it receives with regard to this or any other outstanding cases.

In concluding the debate on this issue, let me emphasise once again the fundamentally humanitarian intent of the two Governments in establishing and supporting the commission. We are all conscious of the social and religious importance attached to the rituals of proper burial of the dead. The families of the disappeared have been denied those rituals and our shared objective must be to address the humanitarian imperative of returning the remains of the victims to their families. No matter what his or her background, anybody who can assist in achieving that aim must do so. We will continue to do whatever we can to provide the commission with every support in its work.

Driving Licence Issues

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

Before speaking on my issue, I wish to compliment the two previous speakers. I concur with the sentiments they expressed. I thank the Ceann Comhairle for selecting the issue I raise today, the implementation of the new driver licence service. I support the concept of the introduction of a credit-card-type licence, which is long overdue, particularly when we consider Irish drivers going abroad and international recognition of the licence. None the less, I am disappointed with some of the feedback I have received. I acknowledge the presence of the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport.

In my area we are in a process of amalgamation of two local authorities, Limerick City Council and Limerick County Council, which between them had three motor tax offices, two of which could issue driving licences. One of those is gone. With regard to geography, some of the areas I represent are more than 60 km from the new centre in Limerick city. In the last week I have received evidence from the rural part of the constituency in particular that there were delays of up to four and a half hours at the Limerick centre. The Department and the Road Safety Authority might argue there are teething issues with the introduction of the new system, as there always are.

One can consider the midlands, where there are centres in Longford, Carrick-on-Shannon, Mullingar, Roscommon and Tullamore. Mullingar is 41 km from Tullamore and Longford is 30 km from Roscommon, 45 km from Mullingar and 36 km from Carrick-on-Shannon. Drumcolliher in my constituency is 69 km from Tralee and 50 km from Limerick, and Limerick is 102 km from Tralee. That distance traverses open spaces containing rural dwellers who find it difficult to access centres as currently proposed in both Limerick and Tralee. The other option is Cork city, which is even further away.

The centres are in urban areas with heavy footfall, but for people in rural constituencies and those who are not used to driving into cities such as Limerick, with the Parkway shopping centre, it is proving difficult to get to them. We know that suggestions were made to people in advance of the transition to the credit-card-type licence to hold off from applying for the licence. Others applied but did not have a licence issued under the last system. Those two categories of person are now in limbo, and it appears that large groups of people are potentially unlicensed.

There should be a number of actions. The resources available in existing centres should be examined in conjunction with the work of outreach or temporary centres such as those in Mayo and Galway. We must also consider the geographical area being covered. In Tipperary, although the two local authorities were amalgamated, the new national driving licence centre was not put in Thurles - in the middle of the county - but instead two centres are operating in Nenagh and Clonmel. What differentiates Limerick and the Kerry area in this respect? A person living in Cahirciveen or Sneem is expected to go to either Tralee or Skibbereen and travel over significant distances. I ask that the Road Safety Authority consider the amount of available space currently unoccupied within local authorities and other State agencies to see if outreach offices could be provided, particularly in larger counties.

Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport (Deputy Leo Varadkar)

I thank Deputy O'Donovan for raising this important matter. The new national driver licensing service is a matter of widespread public interest and I am happy to have a chance to discuss it here. We must be clear about what has changed in issuing driver licences in the past year. Before January 2013, driver licences were issued by the motor taxation offices of local authorities, involving 30 different offices, all dedicating staff and resources to the processing of driver licence applications and the issuing of licences.

The EU requirement to introduce a plastic card driving licence from January 2013, as opposed to a paper licence, meant that there would be significant changes in the way licences were produced, and this provided an opportunity to review the entire system for driver licensing. Following from a study which examined the alternative ways driver licensing might be organised, the Government decided in May 2011 to move to a centralised national driver licensing service, NDLS. At the same time, the Government decided that the Road Safety Authority would be given charge of this service.

Centralising the services offers a number of benefits over the old system. It ensures greater consistency of practice and service across the country and will be more efficient and cost effective. In particular, there is a saving on staff numbers. The creation of a single national driver licensing service also provides for greater security and, under the RSA, offers a one-stop-shop to the public, from theory test to driving test to licence issue. The new system, designed by the RSA, involves three outsourced elements, overseen by a 'specialist unit' based in the RSA headquarters in Ballina. The three outsourced elements are - a card production facility; a front office for engaging with customers; and, a back office to process applications. Contracts were awarded by the RSA for all three services following competitive procurement processes.

Between 19 January and 25 October of this year, local authorities continued to provide customer services relating to driver licences on behalf of the RSA. On 29 October last, the RSA assumed full responsibility for the service. Under the front office contract, provided by SGS Ireland Limited on behalf of the NDLS, customer services are offered at 34 full-time centres and two part-time centres around the country. They are open from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m., Monday to Friday, and from 9 a.m. to 2 p.m. on Saturdays. They also remain open through lunchtimes. These opening hours are more flexible than previously available and more suited to modern lifestyles. Furthermore, people will be able to use any of the offices to apply for or renew their licence rather than just to the centre in their own local authority, as was the case in the past. The new network provides service to 95% of the population within a 50 km radius.

There were some teething problems with the launch of the new service on Tuesday, 29 October, which the RSA advises have now been substantially resolved. The main difficulties were delays for customers in some NDLS centres; the customer helpline being out of service for part of the first day; and an IT problem at 12 of the 34 centres on the morning of the first day. These problems were in part exacerbated by a high level of demand due to the mid-term break and pent-up demand in the preceding weeks. The RSA has advised that a number of solutions have been put in place to address the earlier difficulties. These include the assignment of additional staff, the provision of a further information campaign and the deployment of a manual booking system of which applicants can avail.

Furthermore, the RSA informs me that it is working with the front office contractor to develop an online booking system to be deployed within a month. I understand that in light of the volume of demand at various front office locations, it has been proposed that the booking system will be deployed across all the offices. I have been assured that provision will be made for emergency situations by reserving some capacity for customers who need a licence at short notice. In the course of the past few days, the NDLS has operated a manual booking system to manage queues on the ground and that has helped to reduce queues significantly across the network. Additional staff have been assigned on the ground to ensure that customers do not have unduly long waits.

It is important to also state that the requirement to attend in person only occurs once, when the person receives a first credit card style driver's licence under this new system. On that occasion, the person's image is captured through the SAFE 2 system and identity is verified in person. That is an important measure to prevent fraud. After attending once in person, people can renew their licence through the post and are not required to attend the centres in person again when their licence needs to be renewed or updated. The move to a centralised driver licensing service is the right one in the long term, and will provide a better service to the public as well as greater security and better value for money. While there have been teething troubles with the new system, which we all very much regret, I am satisfied that these are being dealt with quickly and effectively by the RSA and should be resolved in the coming days and weeks.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

The Minister indicated that 95% of the population can avail of the service within 50 km but that leaves approximately 250,000 people who are outside of that range who predominantly live in rural areas. There has been a reduction in the number of centres from 55 to 34. The vast majority of the centres that have been closed are in rural communities, which is the reason people were waiting for up to four and a half hours last week in the Parkway shopping centre in Limerick.

When he discusses the issue with the RSA I urge the Minister to bear in mind the number of people who are driving without a current licence due to tractors and cars being taken off the road. Currently, a significant number of motor taxation issues arise over and above the issue of driver licences. Perhaps the timing of the introduction of the new system is inopportune. The reason I raised the substantive issue is the need for outreach services in rural areas in particular due to the coverage of offices. I did not say people had to go to the local authority in which they live but I made the point that the distance between Limerick and Tralee is more than 110 km and the people living in that corridor alone are at a significant disadvantage compared to somebody living in Leopardstown. I urge the Government to examine the issue, in particular in light of the number of unoccupied local authority offices around the country. That will especially be a factor given the local government Bill to provide for the abolition of town councils when a raft of offices around the country will not have a purpose. I encourage the RSA to examine the use of such offices rather than engaging in an expensive lease agreement.

I welcome the fact that the offices will be open on Saturdays and at lunch time. It begs the question of why other public services do not operate to the same level of efficiency. If the service provided by the RSA currently is up to scratch why does it have a manual booking system and is it considering the possibility of introducing an online booking system? Surely be to God that underlines the fact that the offices as currently constituted are under-resourced and under-staffed to deal with the volume of applications received. I urge that my concerns would be relayed to the RSA.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

I met the CEO of the RSA about the matter yesterday and I will meet him again in the next few weeks. I will certainly pass on Deputy O’Donovan’s concerns. It is the case that the number of staff provided did not match the demand. The demand was more than anticipated and as a result in the first week there were not enough staff. The issue is now being resolved.

Previously, local authority offices did more than provide licences, they dealt with motor taxation as well and off-the-road declarations among other issues. They tended not to be open at lunch time and they were not open on Saturdays. The same is true of post offices. In many ways that is the reason the contract went elsewhere because a better service could be provided at a much lower cost.

Unless a person’s appearance changes dramatically, a person will have to attend a driver licensing service centre only once in their lives to get their SAFE 2 photograph. It is fair to say that the vast majority of people I know, who either live in rural Limerick, Cork or elsewhere in the country, do drive to the city or go to the main town probably a few times a year and certainly more often than once in their lives. The booking system will allow them to tie in a visit for that purpose onto a shopping trip or other reason for being in the nearest town or city.

That said, I accept Deputy O’Donovan’s basic point that 5% of the population is 250,000 people and they do not have an office proximate to them but there might be potential solutions. One solution could be to provide more part-time centres such as the Deputy mentioned. An alternative solution which could be examined, although I am not sure whether it is possible, would be a mobile centre that could travel to various parts of the country and in particular to isolated areas. People would have advance notice of when the service would be in a particular area a few times a year. It must be borne in mind that in future, people will need such photographs for other forms of ID. I am not sure whether such a system is possible under the current contract but contracts can be amended. I would like to see the new system bed down for a couple of weeks and then we will examine the situation again and see if further changes need to be made.

Industrial Disputes

Deputy Michael McNamara

As the Minister is no doubt aware, earlier this week Aer Lingus management announced its intention to close the cabin crew base at Shannon Airport from the end of March 2014. That follows the company’s unilateral announcement in September that it would outsource cabin crew services on a new transatlantic service from January 2014. The announcement was directly contrary to an agreement which Aer Lingus had reached with the pilots in negotiations on the outsourcing the 757 service in the first place.

In response to that unilateral action IMPACT members in Aer Lingus across the country were balloted and they determined that they would go on strike.

I am relieved at today's events whereby the LRC has invited both parties to talks. I hope Aer Lingus will formally announce it will be accepting that invitation, if it has not already done so.

The limitations on what the Government can do with regard to Aer Lingus have been very well rehearsed in this House. As we all know, it not a State-owned company any more; there is merely a minority shareholding. When Aer Lingus pulled the flights from Shannon Airport to Heathrow Airport, with disastrous consequences, these arguments were debated at great length. At the time Members were told the Government could not use its shareholding to force Aer Lingus to take a particular action. However, the Government's advice from the Attorney General on the issue, as with the advice from the Attorney General on many other issues, was not published. During the last general election campaign I campaigned for the Attorney General's advice to be published. I do not really understand why the Attorney General's advice on a wide range of issues cannot be published. I understand there are issues of commercial sensitivity, but when it comes to issues of constitutional change, it is another matter. Today there was an announcement or a decision made by the Cabinet. In this regard, I just do not know why Attorney General's advice cannot be published. I do not wish to digress on this issue.

The Government, as a significant shareholder in Aer Lingus, has an interest in maintaining the value of the company. This is determined by and very reliant on loyalty, including customer loyalty. Unlike companies with which Aer Lingus competes, in respect of short-haul flights to Europe and even transatlantic flights, the airline is very reliant on customer loyalty. It is very difficult to see how that customer loyalty can be maintained, while at the same time abusing the loyalty of long-term staff.

There is a notion among the new management that Aer Lingus having been a company for which people worked for their entire working lives does not fit with some of the practices of its competitors. People work for a year or two as cabin crew with the latter and then burn out and move on to other jobs. In Aer Lingus this has not been the practice. Its customers value this and it is part of the reason the company was able to survive. It survived because of the loyalty of its staff and customer base.

We have been told by the Irish Aviation Authority that it is safe to have four-person crews on transatlantic flights. However, there is the difference between what is safe and what is comfortable or what provides a reasonable level of customer service. Aer Lingus prides itself on and markets itself on the basis of providing that customer service. It has competitors which until very recently marketed themselves on not providing customer service, but that model does not seem to be working and the competitors are changing. It seems bizarre at this time that Aer Lingus is seeking to reduce the level of its customer service. I look forward to the Minister's reply.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

I thank the Deputy for raising this issue.

Aer Lingus is a publicly quoted company and decisions regarding its employees and bases are commercial matters for the board and management. As Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, I have no role in such decisions. For that reason what I can say is somewhat limited. While the State retains a 25% shareholding in Aer Lingus, this does not allow it to become involved in the day-to-day commercial operations of the company. However, the Government is committed to the new independent Shannon Airport company being a success and sustaining employment opportunities in the mid-west. The closure of Aer Lingus's Shannon Airport cabin crew base would be very regrettable and the Government urges the relevant parties to make every effort to reach agreement in order that the base can remain open.

Last July Aer Lingus announced a significant expansion of its transatlantic routes and capacity for 2014. This included very positive developments for Shannon Airport, since one element is that Aer Lingus's Shannon-Boston and Shannon-New York services will resume during the winter months in 2014. The company had ceased operating these services for part of the winter season in recent years as they had proved loss-making for it when operated with large A330 aircraft, as opposed to the narrow-body aircraft that it will now use. The resumption of year-round services will, according to Shannon Airport, result in a 25% increase, or 50,000 additional passengers, on Aer Lingus transatlantic flights in 2014. With other new Aer Lingus European routes out of Shannon Airport, this was welcomed as an indication of the airline's continued commitment to the airport.

In addition to increased services at Shannon Airport, Aer Lingus announced new year-round direct services to San Francisco and Toronto from Dublin Airport in April 2014. These new services were welcomed by all concerned when first announced last summer, in particular by the inbound tourism industry and the many IT employers in the country with close links with the Silicon Valley area. Providing a year-round direct service to Shannon Airport for tourists inbound from the USA will provide a major boost for the local tourism industry and the wider western and mid-western regions. These new services have been made possible because Aer Lingus is leasing three smaller Boeing 757 aircraft from another Irish airline, Air Contractors. It was originally announced that Air Contractors would supply the aircraft and that the crew would be Aer Lingus employees. The company began the recruitment process for additional cabin crew for this purpose.

Agreement for these new arrangements had been reached with the company's pilots and cabin crew represented by SIPTU. However, on 24 October it was announced that the company had failed to reach agreement with IMPACT cabin crew. As I understand it, the dispute focuses, in particular, on cabin crew numbers on the smaller Boeing 757 aircraft. Aer Lingus is proposing to crew the aircraft with four cabin crew and has received regulatory and safety approval for doing so. Other issues such as the cabin manager grade and rostering have also been raised by IMPACT. It is reported that Aer Lingus believes IMPACT's objections to the new arrangements would make the Shannon Airport cabin crew base commercially unsustainable for the company and that it would have little choice but to close the Shannon Airport base and request Air Contractors to provide cabin crew for the Shannon-US services. In response to this, on 4 November it was announced that the IMPACT cabin crew had balloted overwhelmingly in favour of industrial action in the order of 91%. The ballot was of all IMPACT cabin crew in the State. The company has not yet been served with notice of industrial action.

The LRC has had contacts with both sides and it was announced earlier today that they had been invited to meet it this Friday in an attempt to find agreement in the dispute. The Government strongly urges both sides to use the available industrial relations machinery of the State to reach agreement on the matter as soon as possible in the interests of the travelling public, staff and the company. Industrial action in the company could be very disruptive for passengers in the run-up to Christmas and very damaging for the company. It would be very regrettable if the boost the Shannon region would get from the increased Aer Lingus services at the airport were to be marred by a reduction in the numbers employed at the airport owing to an industrial relations dispute.

Deputy Michael McNamara

I accepted at the very outset the commercial nature of the Government's interest in Aer Lingus, but my question was on whether the commercial developments in Aer Lingus were in the commercial best interests of the company, particularly in an increasingly competitive market. I am thankful there is a more competitive market, including at Shannon Airport, at which there is increased competition on both short-haul and transatlantic routes. The company was a flag carrier and still markets itself very much as the flag carrier. We still remember the slogan, "Look up, it's Aer Lingus!" There are differences in the marketing strategies of European airline companies, from former flag carriers to newer, more dynamic companies that may engage in sharper practices in regard to their workforces. However, the companies with which Aer Lingus competes, including the former flag carrier British Airways, certainly have a higher number of staff on their long-haul flights than some of their competitors. People pay for this. Generally, Aer Lingus flights are more expensive than those of some of its competitors, but people pay more in the hope they will receive a better service. Thanks to Aer Lingus's loyal workers at its bases at Shannon, Cork and Dublin airports, customers receive the desired level of service. However, it is hard for a company to expect to be able to provide that level of service while at the same time treating workers in the way Shannon Airport based cabin crew have been treated. The Minister mentioned the 30 cabin crew trainees who were taken on only three weeks ago to be trained for the transatlantic flights. They have since been summarily fired. That is not the way to treat workers one had hoped would manage the new service and build a loyal customer base.

I am glad of the Government's support and hope it will not be called into question when fixing the huge pension deficit. The staffing dispute is against the backdrop of the pensions deficit. The deficit at the Dublin Airport Authority affects Shannon Airport employees and all former Aer Lingus employees. I hope this issue can also be sorted out. I realise it is an entirely separate dispute, but it forms a backdrop to it nevertheless.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

It is really good news for the Shannon region and Ireland that it has been possible to restore services, including winter transatlantic services, to San Francisco.

Part of the reason they failed before is that they were not commercial - the aircraft were too big and the costs were too high. If we want those services to work, they must be commercial and Aer Lingus must make decisions on the appropriate staffing costs. The Deputy should bear in mind that the difference between five staff members and four is 25% in costs, while six staff over four represents 50% in costs. Staff numbers make a significant difference.

It is my preference that the base would remain open and that the staff should be normal Aer Lingus employees and that the additional jobs would go to normal Aer Lingus employees. That preference will be communicated to the Government-appointed members of the Aer Lingus board. The only way to achieve that, however, is for Impact and Aer Lingus to come to an agreement at the LRC and I hope they will be able to do that.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Olivia Mitchell)

That brings us to the end of today's Topical Issues debate. I understand a change is being proposed to today's schedule and I call on Deputy Joe Carey to inform the House.

Dáil Éireann debate - Tuesday, 5 Nov 2013