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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 11 Jun 2014

Vol. 843 No. 5

Topical Issue Debate

HIQA Reports

I welcome the opportunity to raise this important matter in the House today and thank the Ceann Comhairle for selecting it for debate. The issues raised in the HIQA report on University Hospital Limerick confirm the unacceptable overcrowding at the emergency department there. While it has been an issue for many years, overcrowding has escalated since the turn of the year. It is not acceptable that patients are left on trolleys for extended periods. It is not acceptable that vulnerable, sick and often elderly patients are crammed into a confined space and put at risk of cross infection with little or no privacy or dignity. It is not acceptable that doctors, nurses and other staff be asked to work in this type of environment.

The report is welcome and must be acted on. The HIQA report can and must be the catalyst for change within the Limerick hospital group. All short, medium and long-term options must be explored including the provision of additional bed capacity at the site at Dooradoyle, Limerick, bringing forward the opening of the new, state-of-the-art emergency department at Limerick by cutting red tape from 2016-17, improved use of the three model-2 hospitals at Ennis, Nenagh and St. John's, and exploring the option of incorporating a model-3 hospital within the UL hospital group.

Public confidence in our health service is essential. It is critical that the issues raised by HIQA are acted on strategically. The report strengthens the hand of the Minister for Health, Deputy James Reilly, to seek additional funding and resources. I ask that a case be made to the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform with a view to seeking the required funding to enable the Minister for Health to bring about the changes which are required so that we in the mid-west region can have a functioning health service of which we can all be proud.

I welcome the HIQA report which reaffirms what we already know - that there is major overcrowding in the accident and emergency department at University Hospital, Limerick. It is not fit for purpose and is unacceptable for patients and the staff who do such fantastic work in the hospital.

The report discussed fast-tracking the new accident and emergency service at University Hospital Limerick. The new building is complete with the exception of the internal fit-out for the accident and emergency unit. I have seen the building myself. My understanding is that the fit-out will not commence until November and has currently gone out to tender. Why is there a six-month delay? Why was the contract for the fit-out not in place to commence when the building was ready, which is now? What can be done to fast-track this?

We need to have the new accident and emergency facility open as a matter of urgency for the people of Limerick and the wider region. A possible interim measure would be to open the acute and medical assessment unit located above the current accident and emergency department on a 24-hour basis. When triage takes place, medical issues could be directed to the acute medical services overhead while trauma cases could be directed to the ground floor and the existing accident and emergency unit. What we need now is action. Can we bring forward the completion date for the fit-out of the accident and emergency unit at University Hospital Limerick? What has caused the six-month delay?

I welcome the presence of the Minister for Health to take the matter. I thank him for being here. It is obvious that all five Members who are raising the matter have the same goal, which is to make the accident and emergency unit in University Hospital Limerick a pleasant place for patients. We want to get rid of the overcrowding which has reduced privacy and bring dignity back to patients again. That is extremely important.

I welcome the HIQA report, which is timely. We all knew about it anyway, but it is time for us to work together to get a solution which takes us over the next two years. Colleagues have spoken about fast-tracking the emergency department at Limerick and I certainly agree that it is an option we should consider. We should be looking at further options to reduce the crowds coming into the accident and emergency unit in Limerick. It is quite obvious that the hospital is over capacity. We know there is a problem at University Hospital Limerick and that there is a problem trying to fill doctor positions. There is a real problem for staff who work in atrocious conditions. Morale is very low in the hospital.

This is about good management of the system and trying to make good what is in place. There must be a re-examination of the whole system to see if the HSE got it wrong in relation to reconfiguration. These are all issues we must examine. A meeting will take place at the hospital next Monday morning for the Oireachtas Members from the region. I welcome the opportunity to be at the meeting to raise my concerns about reconfiguration. I am also anxious to hear today what the Minister has to say on the current situation. That is important. It is also important that we all work together to ensure that the conditions patients are experiencing in the accident and emergency unit are alleviated. It is totally unacceptable. We are all here with the single goal of making the accident and emergency unit a better place.

I do not envy the the Minister his position. He inherited a health system which was largely dysfunctional. I do not envy any of his colleagues their jobs, all of which are about doing more with less.

This is not about the Minister and his position or his colleagues and their positions; rather it is about my constituents. The Minister should put himself in their shoes. The 2009 HIQA report indicated to them that the current configuration was inadequate and unsafe. A plethora of medical experts told them that the answer was to move emergency services to Limerick Regional Hospital, as it was then called. It now has the more grandiose title of University Hospital Limerick. Five years later, my constituents are effectively told by HIQA, the body that told them the then configuration was unsafe, that the emergency unit to which they entrust their lives and those of their elderly parents and children is not fit for purpose. We are no longer being told that the problem with the health service lies with a lack of funding but with management. We are now being told it needs more money. There is dysfunction at the heart of the service, for which the Department and the Cabinet, which acts collectively, must take responsibility. The problem must be fixed.

I will read from the press release issued by HIQA. It states: "The absence of a statutory governance framework is hindering the development of strong governance and patient safety functions". That has nothing to do with the availability of money; rather, it is a failure of this House and the Government to put such a statutory governance framework in place. The report states: "Moreover, 22% of patients requiring emergency hip fracture surgery had their surgery cancelled due to a theatre list overrun", despite the studies conducted in Limerick showing that theatre were underused and mismanaged. It also states: "The single most significant risk observed by the Authority in ULH during the course of this review was the persistent overcrowding in the Emergency Department (ED)".

This is important because it indicates a failure of the Government to take responsibility for dealing with the overcrowding. The report states:

The single most significant risk observed by the Authority in ULH during the course of this review was the persistent overcrowding in the Emergency Department (ED). The overcrowding impacted negatively on patients (adults and children) and on staff. It impeded access to patients for care and observation, reduced privacy and dignity, increased the risk of transmission of infection and prevented adequate cleaning of the department.

I want to know what the Minister will do about it on behalf of the Government.

I agree with my colleagues in much of what has been said. This was an announced visit by HIQA and one must ask what it would have discovered if it had been unannounced. There should be follow-up unannounced visits. I have said before that I am very concerned about two groups, namely, the patients using the regional hospital in Dooradoyle and the staff working there, whose morale is on the floor. It is not helping that we are moving around the deckchairs in respect of how the Limerick Regional Hospital Group is being managed. This adds to the uncertainty. A person said to me at the weekend that the only people who found the report shocking were those who had not been in the accident and emergency unit in Limerick for a long time. It is suffering the consequences of a flawed and failed reconfiguration programme that saw services in Nenagh, Ennis and St. John's hospitals being moved to an already crowded University Hospital Limerick, with no facilities being made available by the previous Administration. We are now living with the consequences and must fix the problem. We must fix it for our constituents who deserve better. Unfortunately, I have had cause to spend more than my fair share of time in the accident and emergency unit in University Hospital Limerick. It is not acceptable that in 2014 we must wait for a HIQA report for something to be done.

The new building is under construction. I refer to the comments of Deputy Joe Carey on capacity across the mid-western, western and southern regions as an interim measure to divert patients away from the area in their own interests. This has continued for too long. With his colleague, the Minister for Finance, the Minister for Health has invested substantially in the hospital and its physical infrastructure. We now have a statutory agency, the one that stated services in Nenagh, Ennis and St. John's hospitals were unsafe, stating the hospital that was supposed to be the relief valve for these hospitals is unsafe. The people of the mid-western region deserve better.

I regret that I only have four minutes in which to reply because many good points have been made and I need to inform the Deputies of several points. I thank them for raising this matter and affording me the opportunity to welcome publication of the HIQA report on the review of governance in the University of Limerick Hospitals Group. It is the first hospital group to be assessed against the national standards for safer and better health care which I approved in accordance with the Health Act 2007. The review is an independent assessment of services against explicit standards and it is important that the findings, good and bad, be made clear. This will help to drive improvements in the quality and safety of health services. I want to move away from reports being used to undermine and close services and use them to address the issues raised within them and fix them.

The report makes it clear that significant challenges remain, as outlined by the Deputies, particularly in emergency services. It also identifies the significant progress made in corporate and clinical governance and on the reorganisation of services within the group. Among the many positive developments are the establishment of a new management structure, including the board of management, the CEO and management team and the clinical directorate; the reconfiguration of surgical, critical care and paediatric services; and the establishment of an infection prevention and control team.

With regard to risks, the HSE has identified actions that have and will be taken to address the concerns raised and provide an improved and safer service for patients. The key risk area identified is unscheduled care. I fully acknowledge that there are ongoing pressures on the accident and emergency unit, which is why an extensive capital project is under way to build a new state-of-the-art unit.

It will be difficult to cover the issues raised in the short time I have available. I want to respond to Deputy Kieran O'Donnell by saying there has not been a delay. The tendering has been undertaken in parallel. When he meets Ms Ann Doherty, he will be told very clearly that there is no second fix. A huge amount of work remains to be done before the fit-out is undertaken. The tender will be complete and there should be a seamless progression towards the fit-out. There should not be a delay.

Since the report was published, a separate paediatric emergency area has been fully opened. It provides a separate, family-friendly area for children who require an emergency response. It clearly reduces overcrowding to some extent.

A 17 bed short stay unit opened on 25 April and is being managed by the acute medicine physicians. The unit admits short stay patients who can be discharged within 48 hours of admission.

A new €35 million critical care unit opened recently. This is a major step forward in the development of acute hospital services across the region.

The acute medical and surgical assessment units are open and accept direct referrals from GPs and the emergency unit. GPs can bypass the emergency unit. Further information campaigns will be undertaken locally to advise GPs and the public of the availability of three local injury units and medical assessment units in the region - in Ennis, Nenagh and St. John's hospitals. These are very good model 2 hospitals with a critical role in supporting people in the area.

In parallel with these measures, the special delivery unit will support the hospital and provide the expertise required to provide both interim and long-term sustainable solutions to deal with the issues of bed capacity, excessive trolley waits and overcrowding in the emergency unit. The establishment of the hospital groups has the potential to bring about significant improvements in the way we organise acute hospitals. In that regard, I am satisfied that group boards are capable of exercising authority assertively and constructively. Deputy Michael McNamara did not read further from the report which states: "Notwithstanding, the Authority welcomed the fact that the reporting relationship between the HSE’s National Director for Acute Hospitals and ULH was described as being both supportive and enabling, thereby allowing the Board of Directors, CEO and Executive Management Team flexibility in reorganising and restructuring their services as appropriate". The issue cannot be addressed until the legislation is enacted to create trusts. We made it clear that we would have a trial period for hospital groups to see how they worked and where there were deficits.

Deputies referred to the absence of a model 3 hospital in the group.

I believe this is something we need to examine closely.

I want to assure people that we will continue to work to make this hospital as safe as possible. Other issues in the report that have not been raised by the Deputies here are of equal concern to me and must be addressed - in particular, the length of time people with a broken hip must wait on trolleys. This is a critical issue and I have asked for information on this to be sent to me. Four hours is the gold standard, but I want to know how many people wait longer than six hours. Surgery for a fractured hip should never be cancelled because of theatre lists. I understand from speaking to management that they have issues around the figure in regard to this. Sometimes the cancellations have not been due to lack of theatre time but for medical reasons, where the patient is not fit for surgery or has developed complications that must be sorted out.

This is not to ignore what HIQA is doing here. It provides a great service and I welcome the fact that it is there. I wish the CEO of HIQA, the chairman and all its staff the best. HIQA exists to help us see where there are problems so we can fix them. That is what we intend to do.

I welcome the Minister's comments, particularly his commitment to a special delivery unit that will liaise with the Limerick hospital groups to come up with both short-term and interim solutions to the bed capacity issue. I welcome his comments regarding the exploration of the establishment of a model 3 hospital within the hospital group also. I believe this report will help drive improvements at University Hospital Limerick, and I look forward to working closely with the Minister and the CEO of the hospital group to bring that about so that we will have a health service of which we can all be proud.

I thank the Minister for his comments and welcome the commitment to provide a model 3 hospital along with University Hospital Limerick, which is a model 4 hospital. On the issue of the build, we need to know whether the accident and emergency unit will be completed by 2016. We represent the patients and constituents in Limerick and we know that the issue of overcrowding at University Hospital Limerick is not going to disappear unless the accident and emergency build and fit-out is fast-tracked. The shell of the building is complete and the main contractors are due to come off-site shortly. However, it seems the fit-out will not start until November. Why is it not happening sooner? We need this accident and emergency unit to open.

The HSE is coming before the Committee of Public Accounts tomorrow and I have alerted it that I intend to raise this issue there. I represent the people of Limerick city and this issue is of huge significance for them. I will also raise the issue with those in the management of University Hospital Limerick when I meet them next Monday. We are all on the same page on this. It is about patient safety and looking after hospital staff. The biggest issue raised in the report was overcrowding in the accident and emergency unit. Therefore, we need to bring forward the new purpose-built, state-of-the-art facility as soon as possible.

These are legitimate questions that I have been asked to ask on behalf of the people of Limerick and people who use the accident and emergency unit. Many of these people are elderly patients and they have been in touch with us regularly on the issue of overcrowding. Now is the time to act. We have the opportunity, so we should fast-track this project and work together.

I want to focus on the issue of the absence of a model 3 hospital in the mid-western hospital group, which is a contributory factor in the overcrowding at University Hospital Limerick. I was delighted to hear the Minister's comments in regard to exploring the idea of a possible model 3 hospital in the region. Ennis is well placed to become a model 3 hospital and such a hospital would help resolve the issues around overcrowding. If we look at the size of County Clare and the distances people have to travel from Blackhead or Loop Head to University Hospital Limerick, we see good reason to place a model 3 hospital there.

This could be done relatively cheaply. Doctors could be on a rotating roster between both hospitals and the infrastructure is already in place. All that is necessary is the will on the part of the HSE to put a model 3 hospital in place, similar to the models in place at Galway University Hospital and Cork University Hospital. I am glad to hear the Minister is exploring all options in this area and I thank him for his response. I hope we can work together on this to ensure we get the greatest benefits for the people of the mid-western region in the area of health services.

The Minister spoke about patients with hip fractures waiting more than four hours. I could point the Minister to a patient in my constituency who waited four days. Each day she waited, this patient knew that her chance of a successful operation was diminishing, yet she waited day after day.

Talk of a model 3 hospital is all well and good, but let us be realistic. Live horse, get grass. We cannot even open an emergency unit, much less a new level 3 hospital. The plan is for a level 3 hospital for 2020. That is great, but what about now? I join Deputy O'Donnell in asking when will the new emergency department be open and taking patients. This is not an unreasonable question. If, as the Minister pointed out, the problem is legislation, when will we have that legislation? If we can sit overnight to liquidate a bank, and if we can sit in July for emergency legislation, we can sit this coming July to deal with legislation, provided the problem is legislation and that this is not just an excuse the Minister can hide behind.

A lot of politics is being played in this House and a lot of politics was played in advance of the last election in regard to health. It is interesting to hear that the lack of further expenditure on health is laid at the door of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform by one Deputy and that the thanks for the expenditure there has been is laid at the door of the Minister for Finance by another. We are in Government and must front up and take responsibility. I would like the Minister here to take responsibility and tell me when the emergency department will open and when we will have legislation, if that is the problem.

I will not take lectures from anybody. The question I asked related to the capacity that exists in the western region, the south east and the south, in places like Tralee, Mallow, Cork and Galway, particularly in regard to ambulance services. If these services come from peripheral areas, such as north Clare or west Limerick, could they use capacity in other areas? In other words, rather than sending an ambulance into Dooradoyle where the accident and emergency unit is already full, could capacity in Tralee, Mallow, Cork or Galway be used? The south east of Limerick, for example, is within striking distance of Clonmel. We have an immediate problem, but rather than looking at fixed geographical boundaries, we should consider looking at measures outside those boundaries.

I welcome the commitment in regard to a model 3 hospital. The visit referred to in the report was an announced visit, but it needs to be followed up by a similar unannounced visit. We must ensure two things. We must ensure patients are safe, which is HIQA's remit, but we must also look after the staff who are looking after the patients in these hospitals. Their morale is on the floor.

I thank the Deputies for their contributions. Deputy Carey mentioned the risk of cross-infection. I am happy to report that we have the lowest incidence of MRSA in our hospitals now since records began.

I want to mention the model 2 hospitals. We need better use of these hospitals. This does not just mean using the beds in these hospitals, but that the staff working in these hospitals must co-operate and be part of the larger group and be prepared to work on different sites. We must not have a situation in which staff refuse to move from their own model 2 hospital. This is not acceptable.

I agree 100% with Deputy O'Donnell that we need to expedite the new accident and emergency unit and ensure it is opened as soon as possible. That is our goal.

My understanding, having spoken to the manager, is that there is no delay. There will be a seamless passage through. That said, the Deputy will receive a more comprehensive answer from the HSE tomorrow and I utterly respect his right to seek such on behalf of the people of Limerick. If there is anything else we can do to accelerate this, we will do it.

Deputy Breen made reference to "all five of us" but I would say "all six of us". We are all here to improve the situation. There are issues around how things are managed but I wish to put it on the record of the House that we have a very good manager in Limerick University Hospital group and we will be sorry to see her go. Her departure will be Cork's gain, or more specifically, Cork City Council.

Deputy McNamara said earlier that in the past it was all about money and now it is all about management. It is not all about any one thing but about everything. Regarding the case he mentioned, can I presume the woman was not waiting on a trolley for four days with a fractured hip?

No, she was not on a trolley.

I will look into the case. There may have been medical reasons for the long wait, but maybe not. I accept the Deputy's bona fides in that regard.

I want to make sure that everybody understands what I am saying because I do not want a mixed message to go out from here. I am committing to exploring the lack of a model three hospital in the group.

The Minister could explore the moon too.

I am not committing to putting one in or building one. There has been no mention of building a new hospital. There is no point-----

Was that an election promise?

I do not believe Deputy Kelleher is involved in this discussion. He will have his opportunity shortly.

Yes, he is involved in the sense that it was his Government that left the mess behind. It was his Government that reconfigured these hospitals and did not put in-----

The Minister should address the Deputies who raised this Topical Issue.

Sorry, but seeing as the Deputy has raised his voice in this debate, let us be clear about this. It was Deputy Kelleher's Government that reconfigured those hospitals and put the horse behind the cart instead of the other way around by closing facilities before new facilities were built. It left it to the next Government to clean up the mess.

Deputy O'Donovan made reference to unannounced visits which is something that HIQA does already and will continue to do. It has done it with other hospitals and the Deputies will see the results of that in reports published today on other hospitals.

Change is always challenging and difficult and people feel threatened by it occasionally but I believe the changes we are introducing vis-à-vis the hospital group will devolve more authority and autonomy locally, giving local people a much greater say in how their service is configured and delivered. I believe that is important. I will finish by assuring Deputies that we will expedite all of those issues that can be expedited, some of which were not raised today but are contained in this report - particularly the issue of the use of the model 2 hospitals and their staff. The aim is to ensure that we have a safe service. In that context, the report does not say that this is unsafe service but rather that there are risks that must be addressed. We will do everything we can to address those risks as quickly as possible. I, as a doctor and Minister for Health, do not want to see patients suffering.

Accident and Emergency Services Provision

I came in here with the hope of learning something about the actions the Minister proposes to take to address some of the concerns highlighted in the HIQA report on the University Hospital in Limerick. The HIQA report, whether the Minister likes it or not, is damning, with its references to "persistent overcrowding" and its use of terms like "unacceptable" and "not fit for purpose". Page 74 of the report lists 11 risk issues requiring action, nine of which are deemed to be high risk. There are risks to patients and that has to be accepted. There is no point in pretending that this report is doing anything other than highlighting the deficiencies and inadequacies in the emergency department in Limerick. It is also highlighting deficiencies within the overall health system. The report makes reference to the absence of clear interim advice and direction from the Department of Health and the HSE with regard to integrated governance arrangements between voluntary and public services in the context of emerging hospital groups and single boards. That is a criticism of the Department and of the Minister. It is an observation that there is an absence of clear interim advice which is code for saying the Department and the Minister are not quite sure what they are doing. That is what this particular report states.

The Minister has come in here and promised to look at model 3 hospitals in order to address some of the concerns in the midlands but I do not believe that will happen. The reason for my disbelief is clear to see. One only has to look to Roscommon or the north east and the promises that were made on a new hospital instead of the ones at Navan and Our Lady of Lourdes in Drogheda. These commitments were made and they are far from being carried through. In fact, the reverse has been the case in Roscommon and in the north east.

The bottom line is that there is a massive difficulty in emergency departments throughout the country. As recently as this morning Dr. Chris Luke, in an article in The Daily Mail, said that in the last week he has seen just one or two non-consultant hospital doctors trying to run the emergency department. He described this as stressful, not to mention difficult and dangerous. We have a deficiency of staff in our emergency departments and we are facing a turnover of non-consultant hospital doctors very soon. That will happen in July and I can guarantee it will create huge difficulties in our emergency departments this year. The lack of consultants will be compounded by the non-consultant hospital doctor changeover and the difficulties in recruiting doctors for the areas in which they are needed most. The Minister and I both know that this will happen. It is an ongoing problem.

The Minister has suggested that there are some issues in this report that we can address and that dealing with delays in emergency departments will address all of the concerns raised but that is not the case. There are many inherent problems in our emergency departments throughout the country. The trick has been to use the trolley count as a measure of success versus failure, with the Minister saying that there were 550 people on trolleys in 2011 but now the figure is 300, which indicates success and that we are going in the right direction. The problem is that we are not going in the right direction. We still have inherent problems in our emergency departments throughout the country.

Deputy McNamara just raised the case of a woman with a broken hip waiting for treatment for four days. The Minister is right in saying that there may have been clinical reasons for the wait but I can give the Minister countless examples of people who have been waiting in emergency departments for hours on end. I will give the Minister a concrete example of some of the difficulties faced by people in our emergency departments when I respond to his reply.

Deputy Kelleher spoke about emergency departments and then spoke about an unfortunate lady who was waiting for four days for an operation but Deputy McNamara made it quite clear that she was not on a trolley in an emergency department.

I never said she was on a trolley.

The way the Deputy spoke about it implied that she was. The Deputy chose to focus on my commitment to explore the lack of a model three hospital in this hospital group and ignored all of the other things that were said with regard to the opening of a paediatric area and an extra 17 beds, as well as our commitment to get the issues around the model 2 hospitals sorted to ensure that the beds, the urgent care centres and the services of the staff in those hospitals are used in an appropriate way.

The House is very aware that I regard trolley waits and other delays in the treatment of patients in emergency departments to be unacceptable. However, it should be noted that Deputy Kelleher has just stood up in this Chamber and said that a reduction from 569 people on trolleys on a given day in January 2011, when his party was last in government, to under 300 people on all days since May is the wrong direction of travel. Is the Deputy suggesting that we should be travelling towards 600 or 700 patients on trolleys? We all know that there are lots of problems in our emergency departments but responsibility for delays does not solely rest with those departments. As John Donne wrote, "No man is an island, entire of itself" and so it is with the health service. We cannot fix the emergency departments unless we fix hospital wards and we cannot sort the wards out unless we have access to long-stay beds in the community, home help and home care packages. We also need a properly functioning primary care system that catches illnesses early and treats patients before they require hospital treatment, particularly those with chronic illnesses.

All of the things to which I refer take time to achieve. We would love if they could be achieved more quickly but we are faced with the reality that the health service evolved chaotically over many decades. We are trying to bring order to the service for the benefit of patients.

The special delivery unit, SDU, has had a great impact in supporting those on the front line by means of the establishment of clinical programmes. Provisional patient experience times for May 2014 show that 68% of patients attending emergency departments were discharged home or admitted within six hours and that 82% where discharged home or admitted within nine hours. I accept that this means that 18% were neither discharged home nor admitted. However, when Fianna Fáil was in government it was common for people to be obliged to lie on trolleys for three or four days. A number of my patients have had experience of this, but it no longer happens. I have emphasised that rather than considering just the number of people who are on trolleys each morning, we must take account of patient experience times. I am aware that there are some people who are still obliged to lie on trolleys for more than 24 hours, which is unacceptable.

The 30-day moving average trolley count by the Irish Nurses and Midwives Organisation, INMO, remains below 300 patients per day. The figure as of 6 June last was just 227 patients, or more than 8% fewer than at the same point last year. To date this year, the system has reported 8.4% fewer patients on trolleys compared to the same period in 2013, which represents a reduction of 2,578 patients. Relative to the baseline year of 2011, the percentage reduction in the number of patients on trolleys is 31.9%. This is equivalent to a reduction of 13,224 patients. However, the task of further improvement continues. From the outset the aim has always been to provide the right care at the right time in the right place. One of the most essential actions to assist with this task is for patients to make use of the non-emergency facilities, such as urgent care and medical assessment units, in many of our smaller hospitals, which can cater for the majority of their injuries and episodes of acute illness. I urge people to make use of these facilities. I do not want my comments to be immediately interpreted as my saying that it is the people's fault. That is not the case. We must make people aware of the value of medical assessment units in particular.

As we have seen, there is potential for delays in the transfer of patients from ambulances to emergency departments. In order to address this issue the national ambulance service has developed a hospital turnaround framework, which clarifies the process of clinical handover, establishing clear lines of responsibility and the standards expected.

I could continue, but I will conclude by assuring the House that hospitals are working with the SDU to put in place all possible additional measures in order to support a safe and high-quality patient care service. I am a member of a Government that is committed to everything to which I refer. I do not set myself aside from the Government; I am an integral part of it. We are all striving to fix this problem.

My difficulty is that those opposite have been in government for more than three years. Some of the promises they made prior to the most recent general election were quite outlandish. The Minister highlighted the provision of health care, which is essential for emergency departments to work, and he also referred to the home help service. In the context of the latter, the number of home help hours has been slashed by 1 million. Some of what he says just does not match up to reality. For example, he has prioritised the notion of people being cared for outside acute hospital settings and in primary care settings or at home, but this is simply not happening as a result of the fact that the requisite resources are not being provided. The National Association of General Practitioners, NAGP, the Irish Medical Organisation, IMO, advocacy and patient groups and Deputies on all sides have all highlighted the fact that general practice is facing a crisis. However, the Minister is talking about having those with chronic illnesses cared for in general practices throughout the country. As he and I both know, that is not happening because those in general practice have not been given the resources necessary to keep people with chronic illnesses out of our acute hospitals.

We were obliged to almost force the Government to fund home care packages. Such packages constitute a very proactive mechanism to ensure people can move, on a step-down basis, from acute hospital settings to their own homes, where they can then receive treatment and care. These packages are an integral part of the solution to the problem of taking people out of emergency departments and hospitals in general. The report in respect of University Hospital Limerick highlights the fact that there are huge deficiencies in the area of safety alone. What I find most amazing is that on the many occasions when Deputies on this side of the House and front-line medical professionals at the hospital have highlighted the fact that there is overcrowding at the emergency department in Limerick, that patients' safety is being put at risk and that the staff there are operating under huge pressure, the Minister has continually denied that this is the case. The HIQA report confirms everything that has been said, including by those on the front line, in respect of this matter. That report must be acted upon immediately. The difficulty is that I do not believe the Minister is capable of acting upon it.

My goodness. The Deputy's claims would be laughable if the issue was not so serious. His party was in government for 14 years and it did not deal with this matter.

It is a serious matter.

That Administration did not do anything and now I am expected to clear up the mess it left behind in jig time. That is the issue here, is it not?

It is a long jig.

Let us be realistic about this matter. I have not denied that there is overcrowding in our emergency departments and neither have I denied that a problem exists. I have set out to address that problem.

The budget relating to home help hours was restored in 2013. In this year's budget, we have taken additional money out of the long-term care nursing home support scheme in order that we might provide more innovative ways to allow people to stay at home rather than going into long-term care before they need to do so. People do not want to enter such care any sooner than is necessary. Regardless of how nice nursing homes may be, I know of no one who wants to be in one unless it is really necessary. We do not often - the previous Fianna Fáil-led Government certainly never did - provide a range of alternatives in that regard. There is a need for a more tiered approach and we must explore the position which obtains at facilities such as the excellent one in Waterford operated by the Holy Ghost Fathers, which I visited. People use the latter as their home but they are not in a nursing home per se. At another facility in Carlow, people go out during the day before returning to stay at night while others stay during the day and go home at night. These individuals need a range of services which will help them maintain their independence and address the issues which arise for them as they get older.

My commitment to addressing the health services issues in question remains unstinting. I am utterly determined that we will fix this problem. However, we have always stated that the introduction of universal health insurance would take two terms of Government.

That is never going to happen.

Universal health insurance will mean that we will have an equitable system which, as befits any proper republic, will cherish all citizens equally.

That is nonsense.

That is precisely the direction in which we are moving. All the actions we have taken to date are leading us along the path to that goal. As a doctor, I accept that we must care for those who are acutely ill today. It must not be a case of "Live horse, eat grass" and people being obliged to wait for treatment.

Last year, for the first time, we counted the number of people on the outpatient waiting list, which was something Fianna Fáil refused to do for the 14 years it was in government.

The list is getting longer.

We addressed that issue. I accept that our efforts in this regard have not been completely satisfactory but at least we can now quantify the problem and begin to deal with it.

And the list is growing longer.

Some 99% of people waiting for inpatient procedures were treated in under eight months. When Fianna Fáil was in power, it had neither targets nor figures. It threw billions at the problem and quadrupled the health spend over a 12-year period. However, we still ended up with a dreadful crisis in the health service. In that context and as the Deputy alluded to, on a single day in January 2011 there were 569 people on trolleys in our hospitals.

Vocational Training Opportunities Scheme Places

At present, there is a proposal to take vocational training opportunities scheme, VTOS, training places from Tallaght and give them to Balbriggan. As the Minister of State is aware, Tallaght has one of the highest rates of unemployment among those between the ages of 18 and 24 in the country. I am requesting that the decision to transfer the training places to which I refer to Balbriggan be put on hold. There is no logic to what is being done. The decision does not make sense, particularly from a financial point of view. Tallaght was more affected than any other area by the collapse in the building trade. The latter provided employment for many young people in Tallaght and these individuals require help in order that they might retrain and upskill.

These vocational training opportunities scheme places are very important and are part of this upskilling and employment-finding process. Under these changes Balbriggan will now have two VTOS places for every 1,000 residents while Tallaght and Walkinstown will have less than one for every 1,000 residents. Where is the logic or fairness in that? Why does Balbriggan deserve more than Tallaght and Walkinstown? It is not a case of being against resources going to Balbriggan, but where is the logic in this process? Who has made this decision? It is an ill-thought-out decision and will have a very negative effect on Tallaght and Clondalkin. I hope the Minister of State will reconsider the decision, intervene personally and do the right thing.

Why close the operation in St. Dominic's national school where, I understand, the rent is €11,000 per year and is negotiable with the school principal? Why send 20 VTOS places to Balbriggan with the added cost of premises, resources and teaching hours? It has been suggested to me by staff that those 20 VTOS places are equivalent to two classes at 15 teaching hours per week. If we multiply that by a 32 weeks, that is, the school year, and an average gross pay of €50 per hour it amounts to €48,500 to be paid to teachers. These are all extra costs for the education and training board because we already have teachers in the Tallaght setting. There does not appear to me to be any saving in Tallaght apart from the €11,000 in rent. In early March this year a third computer room was set up in St. Dominic's for VTOS along with electrical and data points. There will now be an extra cost for the computers, fitting out the rooms and the move to the enterprise centre in Cookstown along with data protection and so on.

I have been informed by the Department how much all of this will cost but I have been quoted a figure of €10,000. Furthermore, the lease on the enterprise centre is up in two years. Again, everything will probably have to be moved. How much will that cost? What is the point in moving from St. Dominic's? The decision to close St. Dominic's and move the extra 20 Tallaght VTOS places elsewhere seems to have been made recently. Reference was made to putting in the electrical points in during March. Otherwise, why fund a third computer room in March this year?

I understand from the Department that the decision has been made purely for financial reasons. However, what I have outlined to the Minister of State today is that this does not add up. Why are we doing this? I look forward to the reply from the Minister of State and I hope he has looked into the situation. I hope he has seen the common sense of my remarks on the matter. Tallaght cannot afford to lose any resources. It is not a case of taking them away from Balbriggan. The resources are based in the area at the moment and we cannot afford to lose them. Will the Minister of State reconsider this foolish decision?

I thank the Deputy for raising the matter as it provides me with the opportunity to outline to the House the position in respect of the VTOS programme in St. Dominic's national school, Tallaght.

The vocational training opportunities scheme is a second-chance education and training programme for unemployed adults in receipt of certain Department of Social Protection payments. The courses are full-time and can last up to two years. VTOS students can pursue subjects in the junior and leaving certificate examinations or modules certified by Quality and Qualifications Ireland at levels 3 to 6 under the national framework of qualifications. Learners participating on VTOS courses receive a training allowance along with meal and travel allowances and they may be entitled to child care support.

Currently almost 6,000 people are availing of second-chance education under VTOS throughout the country and VTOS places are operated by the education and training boards from funding provided by SOLAS, the new further education and training authority. The main objective of SOLAS is to develop, fund and oversee an integrated further education and training sector. The former FÁS training centres and the 800 associated staff will transfer on a gradual basis to the recently formed education and training boards. These bodies will be responsible for the delivery of an integrated further education and training system. That transfer process commenced on 1 January this year and will be completed by the end of this year.

One of the first major tasks carried out by SOLAS was the development of Ireland's first ever five-year strategy for further education and training, launched on 12 May. This has been developed following consultation with the key stakeholders and has set out a proposed roadmap for the further education and training sector in response to the needs and opportunities for the short, medium and longer term. It will seek to ensure the provision of high-quality further education and training programmes which are responsive to the needs of learners and the requirements of a changed and changing economy. The Dublin and Dún Laoghaire Education and Training Board is a statutory body with significant autonomy with responsibility for education and training provision in the region. The ETB has 510 approved VTOS places and the allocation of these places to centres under its remit is a matter for the board. Following the amalgamation of the former Dublin and Dún Laoghaire vocational education committees, the establishment of the Dublin and Dún Laoghaire Education and Training Board and the merger of the former FÁS services, the board carried out a review, as required, of the provision of all adult education services. In considering VTOS places the board concluded that some 80 places were available in Tallaght at adult education services and a further 40 places were available nearby in Greenhills College. By comparison, Balbriggan, one of the fastest-growing areas in western Europe, only had 20 places. The board then made the decision to increase the available places in Balbriggan by 20, up to 40 leaving 100 places available in the general Tallaght area. Education and training boards are expected to manage their resources to provide the best service for all areas under their remit and that ultimately will lead to changes in provision in particular areas from time to time.

I am unsure whether the Minister of State has listened to anything that I have said this afternoon in respect of the reasoning behind this decision. The Minister of State said it was a matter for the board. What is the point of coming to the House if that is the case? Is the Minister of State listening to me?

Yes, I am listening.

Was the Minister of State listening earlier when I was asking him to outline the reasons why the board has done this? The Minister of State said the ETB is an independent board and manages its own resources to provide the best service and so on. The Minister of State outlined that Tallaght and Walkinstown have certain positions. He also said that Balbriggan is a growing area and so on. I put it to the Minister of State that what the board is proposing, with the compliance of the Minister of State, allows for one place per 1,000 residents while Balbriggan gets double the amount that Tallaght gets. Does that make any sense?

Reference was made to saving money. Where are the savings? Will the Minister of State let me know where the savings will come from? All the Minister of State is throwing at me is that there is an independent board which has made a decision. I want to know why the board has made the decision. There is no logic to what the Minister of State has said today. I cannot go back to the people of Tallaght and state that the ETB is an independent board and has made its decision. On what grounds did the board make the decision? I do not know because the Minister of State has not told me and I am unsure whether the Minister of State knows himself.

I did tell Deputy Crowe but he was not listening.

The Minister of State knows the reason. Is that so? Is it because Balbriggan is the fastest-growing area in the country. Is that the reason?

It is the fastest-growing area in western Europe.

Does the Minister of State know the fastest-growing area in respect of unemployment in the country? Young people who have no hope at the moment are living in the Tallaght and Walkinstown areas and this is one of the only chances they have for retraining and reskilling. I have put that to the Minister of State. Many of them come from the construction industry. The Minister of State must take on board some of these ideas. It is simply not good enough.

Will the Minister of State listen, please? Will he please look at this again? There is no logic to what the board is doing. I accept that the board is independent and so on but the Minister of State has a role. The Minister of State should be championing these areas. If it is a case of a shortage of resources in Balbriggan then the Minister of State should pull them from some other area. He should not pull them out of this area. It is unfair on the people in that area.

I did tell Deputy Crowe the reason.

Perhaps the Minister of State will outline it to me again paragraph by paragraph because I cannot see it.

Sorry Deputy. One speaker, please.

Then perhaps Deputy Crowe was not listening.

I was listening and I read the Minister's reply while he was speaking.

Great. Well done to him. I told Deputy Crowe that the reason was that the board is responsible for the allocation of resources within its region. That power has been conferred upon the board by legislation passed in this House. The board also has significant representation. Local authority representatives across the region have a serious role to play in determining the policy within the board in conjunction with the management of that board. The board has decided that the best use of its resources is to take 20 of the 120 places that are available in Tallaght and Greenhills and allocate them to a region that in its opinion is badly served by VTOS places.

That is the board's remit. It has-----

It is badly served by the vocational training opportunities scheme, VTOS, in terms of places.

There were 20 places allocated in the whole of Balbriggan before this change was made. There are now 40. Given the demographic information available from the Central Statistics Office, there is a dearth of VTOS places in Balbriggan.

Those figures do not add up, as I have told the Minister of State already.

That is the Deputy's opinion.

Balbriggan has double the number in Tallaght. Where is the logic in this?

That is the Deputy's opinion.

That is not my opinion; these are the figures I have been given.

I have examined the population figures.

I trust the board and its management which has significant experience in this regard. It has not just been doing this work of allocating scarce VTOS places since last October but for many years. We conferred on all education and training boards, ETBs, autonomy to make these decisions in the best interests of the people they served.

Therefore, the Minister of State's hands are tied. What was the point of even coming to the Chamber?

I have given the Deputy the logical reasons for the ETB's decision and do not see how we can contradict it. Removing 20 of 120 places and allocating them to an area with population that, in the ETB's opinion, is rapidly increasing is a reasonable decision. I stand over it on the basis of the expertise and wisdom to be found in the ETB which render it well able to make such decisions.

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