I understand that this morning, the Taoiseach met Maíria Cahill. Although I am not aware of what transpired in the course of their conversations, I have no doubt but that the Taoiseach would have been very taken aback by her story and by her account of being raped as a young 16 year old. In addition, attempts were made earlier, when this story was revealed, to undermine her credibility. The story regarding the IRA interrogation into her abuse is one that would shake any person who has had the opportunity to hear it. Over the past decade, there have been many debates in this House relating to the issue of child sex abuse. These range from the swimming abuse inquiry many years ago to the inquiry into industrial schools to the various inquiries into Cloyne, Ferns and Dublin and across the board. Politicians from all parties were anxious that those debates would take place and they participated fully in them in the interests of the victims of such abuse, in the sense that those institutions had covered up and had transgressed the rights of victims. For many Deputies at that time, some of that material was uncomfortable. People could hardly believe what they were hearing on those occasions. I remember it well and was involved in initiating some of the inquiries myself. Sinn Féin Deputies were to the fore in condemning the Catholic Church. The Deputy First Minister, Martin McGuinness, said that Cardinal Brady should resign when it was revealed that as a young priest, the cardinal was secretary to a secret inquiry that swore to silence two young boys who were abused. The deputy leader of Sinn Féin, Deputy McDonald, said that anyone found to have covered up the abuse of children should be arrested and should face the full rigours of the law.
Leaders' Questions
Thank you, a question please.
We know that Maíria Cahill was sworn to silence by Sinn Féin-IRA. This is known and one should just read her father's testimony during the week. I put it to the Taoiseach that this morning, Members have learned of another victim from the Irish Independent. They got three options, namely, we will execute him, you can execute him or we will expel him. Expulsion means moving to another parish. When one reads the blog on this issue by the leader of Sinn Féin, Deputy Adams, one notes he said that on occasions, the IRA shot them. We do not know what happened on the other occasions. Sometimes they expelled them. Expelling means moving to another parish-----
Thank you.
-----and in fairness, he qualified it by saying it was not appropriate to shoot them.
I have a number of questions to put to the Taoiseach. The first is a question I asked sincerely yesterday.
Sorry Deputy, we are way over time.
I appreciate that. Will the Government ensure there is a comprehensive Dáil debate on this issue, like those held at any time abuse in other institutions came up? We should have such a debate. Second, can the Taoiseach confirm whether the Minister for Justice and Equality has discussed this issue or case with the Minister for Justice in the Northern Ireland Executive, David Ford, because of the obvious cross-Border dimension to this matter? Third, will the Government give consideration to creating a facility to enable victims of such abuse at the hands of Sinn Féin-IRA to come forward and tell their story in confidence so the full story can come out?
I had the opportunity and privilege of meeting Maíria Cahill over the past hour and a half or so. This is a courageous, confident and brave young woman who is a force to be reckoned with. She overcame the horror of being raped and had to face down the IRA and its generals, secret or otherwise. All Members know that the horror of rape is that it is not just a violation but is about control and power. While in that frightening situation her own control was taken from her, she never ceded in any way her own power. It is that power and that sense for truth that brought her here to Leinster House and that brought her to Government Buildings this morning. When innocence is defiled, clearly there are consequences when people have the courage to speak out.
Deputy Martin asked three questions. The answer to the first question is "Yes." The Government will facilitate a comprehensive debate on this matter. I cannot confirm for the Deputy whether the Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald, has spoken to the Northern Ireland Minister, Mr. Ford, but he can take it from me that she will. We need to reflect on the Deputy's third question in regard to having some facility, opportunity or method of allowing people who wish to come forward with their stories to so do in confidence. That is an issue on which Members must reflect in order to do that in the best way possible. As the Deputy mentioned in respect of what happened with the Catholic Church and sexual abuse, it is very much mirrored in what has happened here with IRA sexual abusers who are members of Sinn Féin. It is clear, from my conversations this morning with Maíria Cahill, that a number of clear questions must be answered. One such question concerns the movement of people from Northern Ireland involved in the IRA who were moved down to this jurisdiction. They are still here. People know who they are, people know where they are and people know of their activities. It is time that people spoke up and answered these questions.
I thank the Taoiseach for his response and welcome the fact that there will be a comprehensive Dáil debate on this issue, just as there has been in relation to other issues and scandals - I outlined quite a number. At that time, people did not say that people were being political or whatever in discussing abuse within the Catholic Church. I can recall Deputy McDonald's words in respect of the abuse of children in the Dublin diocese. She said:
The report on clerical sexual abuse of children in Dublin exposes how the most powerful men in the Catholic Church in the Dublin Diocese conspired to protect abusers of children. It was a gross betrayal of generations of children.
The most powerful men within the IRA interrogated victims of abuse at the hands of leading members of the IRA. That happened.
The most powerful men conspired to protect the abusers and swore the victims to silence. It is unpalatable to have to say that. There may be Members in the House who do not like me saying that but there is no getting away from it. It is an unpalatable truth. The difficulty is that the power and fear here was much greater than anywhere else and victims will tell one that.
A question please, Deputy.
The point is we need to reflect. Will the Taoiseach give very serious consideration to how victims could be facilitated to come forward to tell their story?
I will give it serious consideration. I take the advice of people in the House as to how best that might be able to be put in place. The Deputy is correct; the most powerful people in the IRA conspired in this. It is reprehensible that a young woman of this courage and bravery should have been kicked about in the last week. Her goalposts have changed and have been changed deliberately. I note from Deputy Adams's comments last night the first connection with the IRA in his statement outside the Mansion House. Perhaps when he has the opportunity he might confirm for the people of our country down here whether or not Maíria Cahill was required to attend at a meeting with her rapist and three other men to discuss this matter. That is the central issue here: a young woman who was raped and sexually abused being required by powerful people within the IRA to attend at a meeting and having to face her abuser.
I also welcome the debate. I was going to raise it later under the Order of Business. I am also very mindful that there are victims and families affected by abuse watching us. Some of them have been in touch with my office. Sexual abuse and abuse of any kind is wrong. The abuse of a child is a particularly heinous crime. The consequences for victims and their families are devastating. We know this having seen the human cost of abuse right across Irish society.
I have set out the circumstances in the North when there was no democratic civic policing service. I have acknowledged that the IRA sought to deal with some cases of abuse when asked to do so by families and victims. While IRA volunteers were acting, in my opinion, in good faith, the IRA was ill-equipped to deal with such matters. IRA actions against sex offenders failed victims. That is a matter of profound regret for me and other republicans. I am acutely conscious that there may be victims who were let down or failed by the IRA's inability to resolve these cases. As Uachtarán Shinn Féin, I want to apologise to those victims. Those who wish to should come forward now and report their complaints to the appropriate authorities - An Garda Síochána, the PSNI or the social services, or the HSE in the South - and they will have Sinn Féin's full support in doing so.
Secrecy has surrounded abuse in Ireland. It was taboo to discuss it and some victims were very fearful to disclose it. The only way to face this problem is to support and empower victims in order that they will speak out. To cover up child abuse is to deny the basic humanity of the victim and to shield the perpetrator. It is an unthinkable act of cruelty. Sinn Féin has not engaged in a cover-up of child abuse as some of our political enemies, including the Fianna Fáil leader and the Taoiseach, have alleged.
A question please, Deputy.
This accusation is a slur on thousands of decent Irish republicans and Sinn Féin members.
What about the victims?
The Taoiseach and the Fianna Fáil leader should go to the Garda or the PSNI with any information they say they have now.
Why did the Deputy not do that?
He relocated them down here.
Now, republicans-----
The Deputy is way over time.
I understand. I am about to finish.
It is shameful. Shame on him.
Republicans are no different from any other Irish citizens.
They are.
Like most parents, we do our best to protect our children and keep them safe. We have learned that ongoing vigilance and believing children is essential.
I ask the Deputy to put his question.
We know that reporting quickly and to the right channels-----
Which is it?
-----is the way to seek and achieve justice. While I welcome a comprehensive debate in the House as opposed to the sleeveen way that the Taoiseach and Fianna Fáil leader have approached this-----
That is a scurrilous comment by the Deputy.
He did not come forward.
The masks have slipped.
-----will the Taoiseach accept that these serious and difficult matters need to be dealt with in a victim-centred way by the appropriate authorities and not politicised as they have been in this Chamber?
By you.
Let us not forget that the central issue here is that a young woman was raped, sexually abused and required to go before her abuser and three other men from the IRA. The Deputy's deputy leader does not believe this. She has blind allegiance to the Deputy as leader of the party while a young woman with courage and bravery is not afraid to speak out. In the past week she has had numbers of others belonging to the same organisation come forward to her having contacted her about similar stories. I hope these people have the courage to speak out as well.
In putting his next question, the Deputy might confirm whether he knows, as leader of his party and Uachtarán Sinn Féin, whether Maíria Cahill was required to attend in a room with three men and her abuser, all members of the IRA, that a second meeting took place some months afterwards, and in the intervening period she was not allowed to go to the PSNI or to the police. The Deputy might confirm from his information from associates who were members of the IRA whether he is aware of any people who were moved down to this jurisdiction to Donegal or to Louth who were involved in sexual abuse of women in Northern Ireland and who are still in this jurisdiction. He might indicate to the House whether he knows anything about any of that because I think the story Maíria Cahill has to tell is not just powerful but will have serious consequences.
Maíria Cahill has made serious allegations and the Taoiseach has met her and listened to her allegations. Will he now facilitate a meeting with those she accuses? These are named people. Now that he has set himself up to make judgment on this, will he bring into Áras an Rialtais the people who have been named-----
The Deputy knows them.
A kangaroo court-----
An off-site court.
Deputies, please.
-----and ask them the questions he is asserting as fact? I refute the allegations that have been made about me and about other Sinn Féin members who assure me all they did in their engagements, conversations and work-----
Work?
-----with Maíria Cahill was to help them.
Will the Deputy please put his question?
No, a Cheann Comhairle-----
Please put your question. Thank you.
If you treated the Taoiseach and the leader of Fianna Fáil like that yesterday-----
I beg your pardon.
Let me-----
That is outrageous.
I try to keep order to the best of my ability and Deputy Adams knows that very well. There is no need for those snide comments.
Hear, hear.
I am not making snide comments. Let me get to the point. The Taoiseach has made accusations against members of Sinn Féin and some of these were subject to court proceedings. Will he meet those people? Will he meet me? Will he put to me the assertions that have been put?
I ask the Taoiseach to listen because he has not listened.
He has.
A Deputy
He asked the Deputy a question.
Will he answer it?
Thank you, Deputy. We are over time.
I have already refuted the allegations made. I do not know who is not listening here. It is a very simple proposition. The Taoiseach has heard Maíria Cahill's story. All those from Sinn Féin who have met Maíria Cahill accept and acknowledge she was abused and traumatised. She then put a particular version of what occurred.
The Deputy is shameful.
These are not nameless, anonymous people. These are decent people. Will the Taoiseach meet them and listen to their version of the story, and then make a judgment on these matters?
Did the Deputy bring in the clergy when making allegations about it?
I find it absolutely unbelievable that Deputy Adams would come into this House of Parliament and say a man who raped a woman, who sexually abused her, is a decent person.
I did not say that. The Taoiseach should not dare say that. The Ceann Comhairle should do his job.
I am doing my job and I do not need the Deputy to tell me to do so. This is a debate. Allegations are made across the floor and I cannot judge on every allegation made.
I did not say that. It is misrepresentation.
The Deputy should allow the Taoiseach to continue. He had his chance.
I did not say that.
The record will show what the Deputy said.
The Taoiseach knows precisely what he is doing.
Let me be quite clear: there are very many decent people in the Sinn Féin Party.
The Taoiseach does not need to tell me that.
I asked the Deputy a question.
I answered his question. I refuted that allegation.
I asked him to confirm whether Maíria Cahill was required to attend-----
I refuted that allegation.
-----a meeting with three gentlemen and her abuser. The Deputy says these are included among the people who are decent. Deputy Adams needs to clarify that. He also needs, without laughing about it-----
I am not laughing.
We are over time.
-----to clarify for people down here whether his associates in the IRA, when it was in formal session, knew of people who were guilty of sexual abuse in Northern Ireland and were moved from there to this jurisdiction to so-called safe houses in this city and south of here, and also in Donegal and Louth, because of fear of publicity. Are those people still here? Is this true?
I do not know.
Does the Deputy know any of the activities they are involved in now? These are the most serious matters for everyone. Sexual abuse was rampant in many sectors in Irish society, not alone in paramilitary organisations, but the Deputy has responsibility for this and we need to know the answers. I will facilitate a comprehensive debate in the House in the best way possible and we can look at the opportunity for people to have their say.
Will the Taoiseach meet the people he is accusing?
I will meet the four people to whom the Deputy refers, who are named.
Good man.
I will do so but I will not stand in judgment on them. I will ask them the question that the Deputy will not answer.
On 19 December last year, the Taoiseach rammed through the legislation to create Irish Water. The Opposition refused to take part in what was a charade and we walked out in protest. One of the microphones was left on that day and it picked up a Government Deputy saying, "Let them go", with an expletive in the middle. This shows the kind of contempt this majority Government has for those with opposing views. The Government needed to ram through the legislation to proceed with the transfer of €11 billion in assets from county and city councils to Irish Water by 1 January. There are two things Irish people hate, namely, being bullied and being taken for fools. The Government and Irish Water have managed to do both.
The process of having to hand over one's PPS number makes people feel bullied. People are infuriated as they will be fined if they do not hand it over. They feel they have been taken for fools. There have been too many examples of this. The partnering with Bord Gáis was supposed to produce significant savings, but there were actually massive start-up costs. It also brought about a bonus culture. People are sick and tired of listening to the propaganda about this. The controversial awarding of the metering contract and almost all other facets of Irish Water do not sit well with people. The approach has alienated those who believe conservation, more so than fixing leaky pipes, is important, including myself. It has alienated people who have data protection concerns and those who are pretty much terrified about the uncertainty and extent of the growing number of charges. The approach has also alienated people who fear the Government and Irish Water are making it up as they go along.
The Government is hell-bent on giving the impression that the entire failure is a failure in communications and of the board of Irish Water when in fact it is a far more substantial one. It represents a total loss of trust in the Government. We are now at the blame game. What blame does the Government place on itself for the loss of trust associated with this omnishambles that is Irish Water? What possible difference can the extension of a month make? Does the Taoiseach believe the events of 19 December 2013 will ultimately determine the results of the next general election?
The answer to the Deputy's last question is that the people will decide the outcome of the next general election and make their choices, whenever it is called. The intention is that it shall be in the spring of 2016. That is always the way it should be. People are the masters and those whom they elect here are merely their servants.
With regard to Irish Water, I dealt with this matter at length yesterday. It is well known why it is necessary to set up Irish Water. It is to have a public entity enshrined in law that can borrow off the balance sheet for proper investment in infrastructure and treatment plants for high-quality water for drinking, business and industry. I dealt with the question of the unitary board involving Ervia, formerly Bord Gáis Éireann, and Irish Water, which board will be established at the end of November. The board has a particular function. I do not want to interfere in any way with the regulator, who made some comments yesterday at a meeting of the Oireachtas committee. We will follow through on whatever the regulator decides in light of his independent responsibility.
It is more than a matter of communications. Irish Water is one of the largest institutions to be created, and it is necessary that it be so. There are challenges with the timescale that has been set out. Most of the complaints I have received are about the mechanics of how Irish Water deals with telephone calls, queries, e-mails, requirements to fix leaks and questions about water supply and treatment-work supplies. The issues on which the Government reflected yesterday are being discussed by Irish Water and the Department. The regulator has independent responsibilities. I hope clarity and understanding will emerge from the discussions in order that people can have confidence in Irish Water and know what they will get for the contributions they make in terms of the improvement of plants and infrastructure, the ending of boil water notices and the creation of a system of water provision that is of the highest integrity and standard. This will be necessary for decades. It has never been dealt with and I know it is challenging and not easy. The system needs to be fair and the charges need to be affordable for everyone. I hope that over the next period we can ensure clarity and confidence for everyone in order that they will know the contribution they will make will be for the important purposes of investment, raising standards and providing water of high quality for domestic, business and industrial use for many decades to come.
It is not easy to get an institution such as this running as efficiently as one would like. Clearly, there have been and are challenges and I hope we can deal with those.
I do not know to whom the Taoiseach is listening if he thinks that this is merely a communications issue or teething problems with setting up a utility. It is far more fundamental than that. The way it has been handled has been a disgrace and has caused considerable upset. The 100,000 people on the street were not complaining about their telephone calls not being answered.
The impression being given is that we are starting from scratch. The example given was that it is on a par with setting up the electrification of the country when, in fact, as I stated, €11 billion of assets, many of which are first-world assets that have been invested in over decades, were handed over to Irish Water.
This is far more important than a communications issue. It is a loss of trust in how the Government has handled this issue, from ramming the legislation through to adding Irish Water to the list of organisations that can require persons to hand over their PPS numbers so the Government could circumvent data protection rules, which is what the Data Protection Commissioner states.
I will repeat my question. Where does the Taoiseach place himself in this blame game, which is now focused on the board of Irish Water but which, in fact, points to a political failure?
I place myself, obviously, as Head of Government. The Government made the decision to set up Irish Water and it was the correct decision to make. The Government also made the decision to not have every local authority involved, with a different standard of provision of water and the difficulties that they all encountered. That is the correct decision. The regime that is in place at present with the regulator means, for instance, that bills are capped at €278 for a couple with two children, but also that if the bill is less than that there is an incentive for the consumer to pay that lesser bill. The regulator will make his comments about that in due course.
As I stated yesterday, Irish Water has not done itself justice in pointing out what it is doing in terms of its capital programme of €1.2 billion to deal with 126 treatment works that are not up to standard across many other areas of the country. This is a public entity. Fears that this will be privatised or sold are wrong, unfounded and without base. It is the law. This is the provision of a public entity to invest in infrastructure so that consumers can have high standards of production and good quality water monitored by the regulator, who has already stated that he wants a reduction in its cost base by 8% by the end of 2016, including a substantial amount in respect of pay and salaries.
This is a case where there are challenges still ahead and we hope to deal with those clearly so that consumers can have confidence that this is a necessary facility and their contribution will go for what it is intended for many decades to come, including investment in infrastructure, the production of high-quality water, treatment works that stand up to scrutiny, and a service to consumers that is not like the service provided in this city at present, which can go wrong and is constantly on a knife-edge. I hope we can deal with all of those in the short period ahead.