Mick Barry
Question:1. Deputy Mick Barry asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent meeting with the Chancellor of Germany, Ms Angela Merkel. [22241/16]
Ceisteanna - Questions
Taoiseach's Meetings and Engagements
I met Chancellor Merkel in Berlin on 12 July. Our discussion focused on the outcome of the UK referendum and its implications for Ireland, Germany and the European Union more generally. Over the past year, including at meetings of the European Council and most recently at the informal summit of 27 in Bratislava earlier this month, I have had many constructive exchanges with the Chancellor and with other EU Heads of State or Government, where I have outlined Ireland's unique relationship with the UK. I took the opportunity to elaborate on this at my meeting with Chancellor Merkel in Berlin and to explain our particular concerns to her, including in regard to Northern Ireland, North-South relations, the common travel area and bilateral trade. I was pleased to find her fully aware of, and sympathetic to, those concerns and to have her assurances that we share the objective of constructive negotiations towards a close future relationship between the EU and the UK.
On a point of order, is Question No. 2 also being dealt with now?
It is Question No. 1.
Deputy Mick Barry is not here.
We can still answer this question and supplementary questions can be asked.
Chancellor Merkel and I were in full agreement that whenever Article 50 is invoked and formal negotiations on the UK’s withdrawal commence, it will fall to EU Heads of State or Government, as members of the European Council, to set strategic direction and make the key decisions. Ireland will be one of the 27 remaining member states involved in these discussions and, as the State most directly affected by the UK's withdrawal, we will play a central role in them, beginning with the framing of the negotiating mandate. As I explained to the Chancellor, this is a case of ensuring that Ireland's specific concerns are addressed in the agreement that is ultimately reached between the UK and the EU. These concerns, above all the preservation of peace and stability in Northern Ireland, are not only in the interests of Ireland and the UK but of the EU as a whole, a point which Chancellor Merkel clearly recognised.
We will take supplementary questions. I call Deputy Adams, who has indicated.
I welcome the fact the Taoiseach raised the outworking of the Brexit vote with the German Chancellor. I also have a question down about his meeting with the British Prime Minister, so I will leave that issue until then.
On a separate issue, a Cheann Comhairle, I had difficulty hearing the Taoiseach earlier and I think the Taoiseach is now having difficulty.
I can hear the Deputy now. I was having difficulty but the Clerk has given me a gadget so I can hear very clearly. It is sometimes difficult when there is noise across the Chamber.
Teething problems.
I think the sound system is working very well. Maybe people should get their own personal hearing systems attended to.
Did the Taoiseach raise the issue of the European Commission's decision in respect of the Apple billions with the German Chancellor? If he did, does he know the German state's position? Does it support the Government's, in our opinion, wrongful appeal against this?
The Taoiseach will know better than I that the German Chancellor is under huge pressure, especially on the issue of refugees and the future of Deutsche Bank, which she is refusing to bail out. The collapse of this bank will have real implications for the EU economy and potentially, for all I know, for the global economy as well. Did the Taoiseach discuss any of this and has any of it, in so far as it is possible to do so, been factored into calculations for the budget?
I want to come back to the issue of the refugees. It is devastating to watch what is happening in the besieged city of Aleppo and journalists and commentators have almost run out of words to describe it. Some 250,000 people are under daily bombardment, many without water and with little food. I welcome the endorsement by the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Charlie Flanagan, of the UN's efforts to broker a peace deal. Will the Taoiseach outline what measures the Government is taking to assist this process and what support it is providing to aid agencies and to the UN?
With regard to the discussions with Chancellor Merkel on Brexit, we know there is a lack of preparation on the British side and Britain is now in the process of trying to get its act together in regard to negotiations but it can be said the position in regard to Europe is equally unclear. I get the sense that, across Europe, there seems to be a view that Brexit is no longer the central issue, that we can get on fine without Britain and so on. That is a dangerous view because, in my view, there is a mutual interdependence between the United Kingdom and the European Union in terms of the volume of trade between both markets and the value system we embrace within the EU in terms of basic democracy, respect for human rights and the underpinning of democratic principles. I believe the dilution and reduction in the size and scale of the EU is a blow to democracy, ultimately, and to the idea of progressive values. Whereas we all have faults and every member state has faults, some more than others, Europe needs to change its attitude at all levels towards the UK and Brexit.
I suspect, and the Taoiseach might confirm, that the Chancellor may be more of that disposition and I think Germany realises the mutual interdependence between the UK and the EU.
We need to see more of that attitude to the fore in the discussions that will take place once Article 50 is commenced by the British Government. On the British side, there are people who are ridiculously posturing in terms of a hard Brexit, with groups being formed within the Tory Party to say Brexit means Brexit, with calamitous results both for the British people in terms of the economy and economic growth and jobs but likewise it is of no great benefit to Europe either because Europe will equally lose out in such a scenario because unexpected consequences could flow from a difficult separation, as it were. There is much uncharted territory in terms of Brexit. Did the Taoiseach get an indication from the Chancellor as to how Germany intends to approach the issue, in particular within the European Union?
Second, in terms of what is happening in Syria, this refugee crisis is without question unprecedented and represents one of the greatest scandals and appalling misery visited on a people since the Second World War and its aftermath. It is fair to say that the international institutions, including the European Union, have not responded properly, adequately or comprehensively enough to what is a refugee crisis caused by war. It is not about normal economic migration or asylum seeking. It is a catastrophe of unprecedented proportions which will continue.
To be fair to Chancellor Merkel, she made perhaps one of the bravest moves across Europe and is suffering electorally at the polls because of that. The European Union’s relationship with Russia must come into question following what has happened in recent days in Aleppo. There seems to be great reluctance in some quarters to call it as it is. Some journalists in The Guardian and elsewhere have described the razing of Aleppo, including the bombing of aid convoys, as equivalent to what happened in Stalingrad. It is very clear that the Russia-Syrian Government alliance is responsible for the assault that is currently under way in eastern Aleppo. People in this House need to call that for what it is as well. It is unacceptable. To be fair, at the United Nations, people took their gloves off in terms of articulating the unacceptable nature of what is going on. The situation calls into question in a very fundamental way the relationship between the European Union and Russia, which is already strained due to sanctions imposed on foot of the situation in Ukraine, but what is going on currently is at a new level.
Hungary also needs to be taken on within the European Union. I do not know whether the Taoiseach has had discussions with Chancellor Merkel on the matter but the Hungarian Prime Minister’s utterances in the past week are shocking and completely contrary to any European set of values. He talked about ring-fencing a city in an island somewhere off the Libyan coast to put all the refugees. The stage must come when Europe either means something in terms of a basic value system or it does not. We cannot just accommodate everybody because we want to be nice to everybody and say it is great to have 28, or now 27, members in the European Union. The Hungarian Government has an obligation to subscribe to the core values and principles of the European Union. It is entitled to disagree but Hungary is not entitled to be part of the European Union given the kind of inflammatory, unacceptable rhetoric emanating recently from its government.
In terms of the meeting with Dr. Merkel, does the Taoiseach consider that she recognises in reality the very special interest Ireland has on the Brexit proposals and that it is not just a rhetorical acknowledgement of it? In that context, did the Taoiseach get any information from her on whether the Commission’s negotiating team will contain a strong Irish presence because we are unique among European countries and have a particular and special interest in Brexit and its potential implications? In the context of Dr. Merkel being one of the most influential Heads of Government, has the Taoiseach discussed with her the proposals, which are really for the Commission, of a team to negotiate on behalf of the Commission?
I agree with Deputy Micheál Martin that there is a tone emanating from Europe of broad indifference to whenever Brexit will happen. The implications of that for Ireland are profound because it means we will be counted out, so it is important there should be a significant Irish presence at senior official and other level, which the Taoiseach might care to indicate, in the pursuit of Ireland’s interests from both the perspective of the two islands but also from the perspective of our continuing and ongoing membership of the European Union. Second-----
I will interrupt Deputy Burton if she does not mind, as I wish to bring in Deputy Eamon Ryan and to allow time for a response, as we are running out of time.
Of course.
I ask Deputy Ryan to be brief.
I will be very brief. In the conversation with Chancellor Merkel, did the Taoiseach raise the concern many people have that the German Government has brought about a diminished role for the Commission in its dealings with the European Union, preferring to use the Council instead? As the Taoiseach is aware, the Commission has traditionally been seen as offering protection for smaller states. Was there any discussion on the relative roles of the Commission versus the Council in how we manage Brexit or in terms of the range of issues we face?
We have two minutes remaining.
I will respond to the questions in reverse order. In response to the question from Deputy Eamon Ryan, the matter was discussed at the European Council. It was always the Commission that provided the expertise to deal with countries that were pursuing their application to join the Union. This is the first time a country is willing to leave. The Commission will still use its expertise in negotiation but it will be overseen politically by the elected leaders of the countries and the Heads of Government. That is as it should be.
In response to Deputy Burton's question, yes, we will have an arrangement and senior officials will know exactly at every point the discussions that are taking place because it is critical for us that we know what exactly is going on. Deputies can believe me that when it comes back to the European Council for the political decisions, we will be in possession of all the facts. Deputy Burton also inquired whether Chancellor Merkel recognises the unique position of this country. Yes, she does, acutely. She is very conscious of it. She knows full well the importance of the European peace process, the support Europe has given and how critical it has been to Ireland. She understands the land border within the EU from Dundalk to Derry. I must say she is very conscious of that.
In response to the points made by Deputy Micheál Martin on Syria, this is a humanitarian scandal. Could one imagine three quarters of Dublin being without water and being blown asunder? The focus from Europeans who are not affected by the conflict is to build a European Union of peace, prosperity and stability and that there is a hell beyond the border. The root cause is not being tackled. I thought that when Secretary of State Kerry and Foreign Minister Lavrov put together a peace agreement after five years that it would stand some chance, yet the situation has disintegrated into absolute mayhem. Aleppo is being bombed and is in the process of being obliterated. The politics of the situation is that Russia and Iran support President Assad and America and the EU support the unofficial opposition and rebels. Turkey has a problem with the Kurds. Deputy Micheál Martin is quite right that at the European Council meeting, there was a proposition that there should be a European Union policy particular to the eastern Balkans, which is now suffering more from the influence of Russia than of the European Union or the United Nations. Those are matters we need to talk about.
I am afraid we are out of time. The Taoiseach must wrap up.
In response to Deputy Adams, I discussed the question of the refugee crisis with Chancellor Merkel but my primary purpose was to explain to her the particular relationship Ireland has with the UK and the European Union. We are at an elbow, so to speak, in that regard. She has a very clear picture of where we are.
Chancellor Merkel is acutely conscious of the economic strength of Germany but she is also acutely conscious of just how fragile this entire business is for the European Union and we need to discuss it rationally and proceed with great caution.
I thank the Taoiseach. We are eating into the time for the second group of questions, Nos. 2 to 6.
Taoiseach's Meetings and Engagements
Mick Barry
Question:2. Deputy Mick Barry asked the Taoiseach his plans to meet with the newly announced UK Prime Minister, Ms Theresa May. [22242/16]
Micheál Martin
Question:3. Deputy Micheál Martin asked the Taoiseach the formal contacts by him with the UK Prime Minister and political leaders in Scotland and Northern Ireland since 31 July 2016 regarding the issue of Brexit. [27012/16]
Gerry Adams
Question:4. Deputy Gerry Adams asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting with Prime Minister May. [27030/16]
Brendan Smith
Question:5. Deputy Brendan Smith asked the Taoiseach the outcome of any discussions he has had with the British Prime Minister in regard to possible Border controls following the British EU membership referendum decision. [27104/16]
Eamon Ryan
Question:6. Deputy Eamon Ryan asked the Taoiseach if he will demand free movement of persons between the UK and Ireland during negotiations surrounding the UK withdrawal from the EU. [27142/16]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 2 to 6, inclusive, together.
I met Prime Minister May on 26 July in London, when we agreed to work together to build on the continuing strength and the closeness of the UK-Ireland relationship. We had a good discussion on the good progress that our two Governments have made in recent years following on from the joint statement, British-Irish Relations, the Next Decade, which was agreed in 2012. Prime Minister May affirmed the UK Government's commitment to this comprehensive programme of engagement between our two Administrations. This will allow us to continue to work together on a range of issues that are of benefit to all the people of Ireland and Britain, such as jobs, trade, tourism and energy, as part of our joint Ireland-UK work programme.
The meeting also gave us the opportunity to discuss developments in Northern Ireland. We reiterated the importance of the partnership between our two Governments in supporting the peace process and in contributing to stability and continued progress in Northern Ireland. We are both committed to the 1998 Good Friday Agreement and successor agreements - St. Andrews and Fresh Start - and will continue to work in partnership for a prosperous and secure Northern Ireland.
We discussed the many issues that arise in the context of the outcome of the recent UK referendum on EU membership. While it is not the outcome that we wanted, we fully respect the democratic vote of the people of the UK and we will work with the Prime Minister and our partners in the EU and the Northern Ireland Executive to make sure we achieve the best possible outcome in forthcoming negotiations.
We agreed that we would work together to ensure that the benefits of the peace process are preserved in any new arrangements which might emerge regarding the UK's future relationship with the EU. In particular, we both recognised that Ireland is the only EU member state that shares a land border with the UK. We are in agreement that we do not wish to see any return to the borders of the past on the island of Ireland.
The meeting gave us the opportunity to have a broader discussion on the common issues of concern in the context of the referendum, such as our close trading relationship and the benefits of the common travel area. Both the Irish and the British Governments value the common travel area and will work to keep this in place to the greatest extent that is possible as part of future arrangements. There is no desire whatsoever to limit the freedom of people on both sides of the Irish Sea to live, work and travel freely across these islands. It will be a key issue for us in the context of negotiating new terms and conditions for the EU's continued relationship with the UK.
I last met with the First Minister and Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland and Scotland's First Minister at the extraordinary meeting of the British-Irish Council on 22 July, which was called specifically to discuss the Brexit issue, and hope to meet them again in the near future.
Through the Taoiseach's contacts with the British Prime Minister, has he any sense of where Britain is at in terms of Article 50? We are getting various indicators that Article 50 could be triggered early next year. The British Government is now busily recruiting about 300 people to strengthen its capacity to deal with the Brexit negotiations. As I said to the Taoiseach earlier, there are already different poles of influence developing within the Tory Party. One group is looking for a soft exit, EEA-type agreement or Norwegian trade agreement; others want a very hard Brexit and, though very ill-thought out, are considering either a WTO-type agreement or something close to the Canadian deal. However, they are not clear themselves, and it seems that this sense of absence of clarity on the British side must be hampering our attempts to formulate a proper set of strategies and tactics in how we pursue and achieve our objectives.
For the most part we know what are our objectives but the key issue will be how we go about securing them, both across Europe and the EU member states and in ensuring that we can influence to a certain, albeit limited extent the degree to which Britain will approach these talks. It is interesting that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, for example, is beginning to witness the hard realities of what Brexit means for the British Exchequer and for the financial services sector in the UK. At recent meetings he has had with some of the big banks and so on, they have been telling him straight that they need clarity from Britain, or else. An element of that could be of benefit to Ireland, but the fundamental point is the lack of clarity.
Regarding our objectives in Northern Ireland, my worry is that not enough detailed work has been done. For example, about a billion gallons of milk a day come into the South from the North. That is just one small illustration of the enormity of the two-way trade between the North and South that will be affected by this. I thought the Taoiseach and I agreed in July that we would try to have an all-island approach to Brexit. I put forward the idea that a mechanism should be developed whereby a social and civic forum would be established on an all-island basis to facilitate inputs from civil society in the North and the Republic into an issue of common concern, that is, Brexit and its implications for business, trade, workers, education, research and agriculture and farming on the island of Ireland. The implications will be very severe.
We must move away from just fuzzy talk or generalisations to concrete realities. We all say we do not want a hard Border. How does one put flesh on that bone? It is easier said than done if Britain separates from the EU. Are we looking at a border between the UK and the island of Ireland rather than one between the North and South? Clearly we want the former but we need to be thinking legally through formulas and models that can realise those kinds of objectives. It cannot all be wishful thinking or the articulation of wishful thoughts that we might like to see happening. The implementation and the realisation of those objectives are two different things.
There is a great deal of confusion and uncertainty about the entirety of this situation. The Leave campaign were in a state of shock when the result was announced. I did not like the result but we must deal with it.
On the question of when the Prime Minister is likely to trigger Article 50, from speaking to Secretaries of State Brokenshire and Davis and indeed the Prime Minister herself, under the law it is a matter entirely for the Prime Minister to do so. The feeling in a European context, when the original date for the appointment of the new Prime Minister was to be in October, was that one would need some time to reflect on what it is that one wanted to do and then trigger the article. My impression is that it will be towards the end of January or February before Article 50 is moved. I cannot confirm that as it is not my business but that is the impression that I get.
However, there are, as Deputy Martin says, different views within the Tory Party, and the Prime Minister has had to comment on a number of those in recent days. What sort of agreement does Britain want? It wants a deal which, from its point of view, protects its interests, and that will be unlike the Norwegian deal or the Swiss deal or whatever. What it wants is a British deal. We must see that our interests are protected. There is a great deal of contact going on between officials because before Article 50 is moved, it will be necessary for the British side to be able to know the areas in great detail that will become a central focus of those negotiations. I assume they are now identifying those areas and starting to work through them. From our point of view, our senior officials will continue to work very closely with them in that regard.
The Deputy is right to mention agriculture, and the Minister, Deputy Creed, has been in regular contact with his Northern Ireland counterpart, Michelle McIlveen, MLA. He will travel to London shortly. As I said, I have asked every Minister before the next North-South Ministerial Council to have in in-depth conversation with their counterparts and their officials about what the impact will be including on areas such as milk production, dairy products in general, beef, pork and all the other agri-sector issues that are of concern North-South and South-North on a regular basis.
I have met representatives of companies here who are now seeing the impact of the currency fluctuation where prices are due to increase. Given that there is generally a lag of two or three months, those prices will take effect in Britain in November and December, which is a difficult time in terms of retail for Britain. The impact on some agri-plants here has already been evident. There will be an increasing challenge for the British consumer because of currency fluctuations and therefore price increases in meeting all of that. We need to be very careful about these aspects.
I hope, in the context of the all-island conversation we will have, there will be real contributions about where this will go. When will it be finalised? It took about three years to get Greenland extracted from the European Union and there are not too many people living in Greenland. This could run much longer than people might imagine. Although there seemed to be an impression at the European Council meeting that this should certainly be done before the next European Parliament elections in 2019, these things are very difficult to predict.
We will prepare as assiduously as we can and we will keep everybody here informed of that because it is important that we have the views of the Irish Parliament in protecting our particular interest, both continuing with the United Kingdom in the links we have and our specific relationship as a member of the European Union.
I call Deputy Adams and ask him to bear in mind that three minutes remain in this slot.
Gabhaim mo bhuíochas leat, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle. Is deas an rud é tú a fheiceáil arís. Tá súil agam go raibh sos maith agat.
I do not have the time to get into the detail I had prepared. We can speculate all we want about what the British might do, but it is very important to spend a lot of time figuring out what we will do. I listened carefully to the Taoiseach's answer to my question where I asked him if he would accept the vote of the people in the North. He said that yes, he does accept the vote of the people in the North, the people in Scotland, the people in England and the people in Wales. While I do not want to put words in his mouth, he went on to say something to the effect that this was a collective decision or a corporate decision. That is the nub of this problem. The Taoiseach has to accept, advocate and promote actively the vote of the people in the North. There is no getting out of it. He has to do that or else say he does not accept that approach. Either way there must be clarity from the Government on the issue. It follows through that if he is not clear, then he will not be clear with the British Prime Minister. He has to say to the British Prime Minister that the vote was taken.
The Taoiseach mentioned Greenland, which is a good example. It is an autonomous part of Denmark, which is a member state and yet Greenland is outside the EU while Denmark is in the EU. So there are arrangements and the EU is not an inflexible structure. The leadership falls upon the Taoiseach at this time.
The Taoiseach also said that both Governments reaffirmed their commitment to the peace process. I do not believe this Government is committed to underpinning, building and promoting the peace process, as it is required to do. For example, did the Taoiseach ask the British Prime Minister about her decision to scrap the UK Human Rights Act, which is a total undermining of the Good Friday Agreement?
The Taoiseach will know, or he should know, that the Ballymurphy families walked out of a meeting with the British Secretary of State who refused to fund legacy requests that are outstanding, some for more than 25 years. Within the Northern Executive, the DUP is also blocking this. That is despite the fact that the North's Lord Chief Justice, Declan Morgan, has proposed a five-year plan to clear the backlog in all of this. If our Government has not got its head around that and we just get these bland statements that the two Governments are supportive of the peace process, then the damage done by Brexit will be more deeply rooted and devastating than we might be able to contemplate at this time.
The time has almost elapsed. With respect, I will call Deputies Brendan Smith and Eamon Ryan for one short question each and then the Taoiseach can reply to them all.
I ask the Taoiseach to give a firm indication that every effort will be made to ensure there are no restrictions in the movement of people or goods between North and South or between Ireland and Britain. In my constituency and the general Border area there is real concern over the impact of Brexit. Already uncertainty has arisen due to the weakness of sterling. Deputy Micheál Martin mentioned the dairy sector and the movement of raw milk from North to South and from South to North. Thankfully, many of our good business enterprises are sited on both sides of the Border. Real difficulties will emerge for them if there is restriction on the movement of people or goods. I would like the Taoiseach to give the House an assurance that every possible effort will be made to ensure no restrictions are imposed on the movement of people. We underestimate one thing that has been very successful since the mid-1990s, which is the growth of economic activity on a North-South basis and the movement of workers. We want to ensure obstacles are not put in the way of the further development of that positive economic feature.
I call Deputy Ryan for one quick question.
On a point of order, four questions were grouped. Why are certain people given more priority? My question is just as valid. I make the point-----
If the Deputy were the first, I would not have interrupted him. There are 15 minutes. Those are the Standing Orders and I am ensuring that we implement them.
If I could make my point then-----
The Deputy should ask a quick question or else the Taoiseach will not have time to reply.
Let me ask my question. The critical point the Taoiseach made was that we were looking to keep the benefits of the common travel area or to keep it in place to the greatest extent possible, in other words, recognising that it may not be retained as is. In the negotiations, will the Taoiseach side with the UK in terms of some sort of semi-hard Brexit option where the restrictions with the rest of Europe in terms of freedom of movement of people would be introduced, but we would have a special different relationship where we get some element of a common travel area? Or will he instead side with those within the European Union who are currently saying that irrespective of the position the British Government takes, the European Union will insist on the maintenance of free travel before giving any trade deal to the UK? If we took such a position, supporting that EU principle of free movement, would that risk the outcome of the barricades going up between Belleek and Ballyshannon, and between Belcoo and Blacklion? Ultimately, the Taoiseach must make the call as to whether we side with Europe or with the UK on the issue of the free movement of people.
The Taoiseach will have to use all his skills and reply in one minute.
We enter these discussions as a member of the European Union, but we do so as a country with a unique set of relationships with the United Kingdom. The common travel area has been of great benefit to both countries before we joined the Union and since we joined the Union; it has not been tested when one country is in the Union and one is outside it. The British Prime Minister is clear that neither she nor I want to see a return to a hard Border and will do everything possible to see that the free movement of people and goods is as it is now.
We are in the negotiations as a member of the European Union, but we want to retain our specific traditional relationship with the United Kingdom. When I met the British Prime Minister, Mrs. May, she made it clear that she does not want to return to a hard Border and nor do we. She wants to retain the common travel area, as do we. We will speak as a member of the Union, but we have a particular relationship with Britain that we want to retain.
I spoke to the Secretary of State, Mr. Brokenshire, MP, at the British-Irish Association conference in Oxford and I reminded him that in respect of the Kingsmills massacre the Tánaiste had sent whatever information we had on our Garda files to the coroner's inquest. I only made it as a point of information for him as an example of the kind of thing the British Government could start to deal with in terms of breaking down the legacy of pressure that is there, either in Ballymurphy or Kingsmills or wherever else, as Deputy Adams will well understand. It was shortly afterwards that the meeting took place with him in respect of Ballymurphy.
He ignored the Taoiseach. The people walked out of the meeting.
People in Northern Ireland and Scotland voted to remain. People in Wales and England voted to leave, but people in greater London voted to remain. As Deputy Gerry Adams knows, people in Northern Ireland have a right to Irish citizenship in most circumstances. They do not want to see a border between Derry and Dundalk. These are some of the unforeseen questions that need to be answered and that we will have to deal with. We will have a lot more debate and discussion on these issues as we move forward.
UK Referendum on EU Membership
Micheál Martin
Question:7. Deputy Micheál Martin asked the Taoiseach the restructuring plans in his Department to deal with Brexit; the way these changes will relate to other Departments, particularly the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade; the reporting relationships and the recruitment plans for same; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [26581/16]
Joan Burton
Question:8. Deputy Joan Burton asked the Taoiseach the progress that has been made in considering the implications of Brexit for Ireland, North and South. [27229/16]
Micheál Martin
Question:9. Deputy Micheál Martin asked the Taoiseach the dates and attendance at meetings of his Department's task force on Brexit; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [27309/16]
Micheál Martin
Question:10. Deputy Micheál Martin asked the Taoiseach if he plans to publish a strategy for Ireland and the way it can benefit most from the opportunities the Brexit result presents for Ireland; the way in which Ireland will increase its presence in other EU markets to increase exports and intensify trade arrangements; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [27311/16]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 7 to 10, inclusive, together.
Structural changes to the workings of government are required to ensure an effective whole-of-government response to the challenges ahead. I recently chaired the first meeting of a new Cabinet committee on Brexit that will oversee the overall Government response, including the economic impact and the negotiations at EU level and with the Administrations in London and Belfast. It will be supported in its work by a senior officials group on Brexit which will build on the work undertaken by the interdepartmental group on EU-UK affairs. A second Secretary General has been appointed to lead a new integrated division within my Department with responsibility for EU, Northern Ireland, British-Irish and international affairs. The appointment is part of a series of actions I announced following the referendum, including the strengthening of the EU policy role of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, as well as the strengthening of other key Departments, agencies and overseas missions. This will be complemented by existing structures, including the Cabinet committee on EU affairs and the EU senior officials group which supports it and a consultative group of external stakeholders, including ICTU, IBEC and other business representative groups and relevant NGOs.
As regards the likely impact of Brexit on Ireland, North and South, the Government is being kept fully briefed on developments and reviewing key issues relating to contingency planning and preparation for negotiations on an ongoing basis. All Departments are deepening their analysis of the likely impact of the United Kingdom's decision and continue to develop risk analysis and contingency plans.
The Government believes there is a need for the widest possible conversation on the implications of the referendum result for Ireland, North and South, and North-South relations and we will put forward in the coming weeks our ideas on how we can best do this. In July the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Charles Flanagan, briefed members of the Export Trade Council on the formulation of a new successor policy to the trade, tourism and investment strategy which will be accelerated in the light of the UK referendum result. "Trading Better" will set out a coherent medium-term plan for the period 2017 to 2021 to enhance and improve how we support Irish exports and investment. In addition, Enterprise Ireland and IDA Ireland are in close contact with their clients on the challenges and opportunities presented by the referendum result. They have extended their schedule of trade missions. IDA Ireland will continue to promote the attractiveness of Ireland as a location of choice for mobile international investment and talented people and seek to maximise opportunities that might arise. This is based on our unique competitive strengths - now being seventh in the world - and our position as an English-speaking nation in Europe and the eurozone. Enterprise Ireland is intensifying its efforts to support companies to respond to the new situation and implement medium-term market diversification plans.
The Taoiseach stated he had recently attended a Cabinet meeting.
I chaired it.
How many Cabinet committee meetings on Brexit have taken place? In Question No. 9 I ask the Taoiseach for the dates and attendance at meetings of his Department's task force on Brexit. Perhaps he might forward the details to me or indicate if the information is attached to the reply.
The role of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, in terms of its relationship with the Department of the Taoiseach, in dealing with the Brexit issue was not articulated clearly in the Taoiseach's reply. I pointed out earlier that the British Government was recruiting approximately 300 people, including trade negotiators and so on. The detail involved is enormous and I am still not clear on whether we have in place a plan for recruitment. We did have a meeting on the issue at the time of the Brexit decision during which the Taoiseach pointed to the possible recruitment of staff to embassies and I indicated the need for a strengthening of embassies across EU capitals and in key areas, including the British embassy and the Irish Embassy in London. Is there an overall number of personnel that we will be recruiting specifically to provide expertise to assist the Government in its negotiations on Brexit? Will the budget provide for a specific "Brexit allocation" to cover staffing, the number of personnel required and the overall national effort in dealing with Brexit? It is essential that we have some clarity on that issue. To be frank, our current strengths are not sufficient to deal with the detail of what is involved. This is not just about trade which in itself is extraordinarily detailed. In the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation there are only a small number of personnel involved in the area of trade policy and enterprise. On the side of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, it is usually the embassies that engage in trade promotion, but the numbers are very low given the enormity of the task involved. I am worried that we have not grasped the enormity of the task and that we are not preparing adequately for it.
In addition to the recruitment of personnel, has the Taoiseach considered appointing a Minister with exclusive responsibility for managing and co-ordinating the Government's efforts in dealing with Brexit, devoid of other responsibilities a Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade or a Minister with responsibility for European affairs invariably would have and so on? It is important we have someone to dot the i's and cross the t's in our preparations for and ultimately the conduct of the negotiations. It is a vast task covering research and development, SMEs, trade and so on which is going to take up an enormous amount of time. During a presentation last week by Mr. John McGrane of the Irish Chamber of Commerce he told us that what we were witnessing was the calm before the storm. Once Brexit is triggered, there will be many consequences.
Will the Taoiseach expand on the expected role he identified for key senior Irish officials on the European Commission Brexit team which, as he said, will conduct most of the negotiations? Has he considered appointing a personal envoy? That official could be a senior diplomat or a politician with senior status. I personally do not think the meetings that are happening which inevitably are not detailed but cover a lot of territory are sufficient in pursuing our interests as a country. I detected from before the summer a considerable softening in the Taoiseach's replies on his stance on the issue of a hard Border. It seems to be a matter up for discussion.
On the role of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, those involved will be professional diplomats. Brexit, above all else, will be a monumental exercise in diplomatic negotiations, with politicians, by and large, coming in towards the end. A number of staff have been transferred from the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade to the Department of the Taoiseach. Professional diplomacy, including among the ambassadors of the 27 member states resident in the Republic, including the United Kingdom, is equally important. As has been said by several Ministers, the view in Europe is that Ireland is an add-on to the British decision on Brexit. I do not believe the Taoiseach is stating clearly and strongly enough that we do not want to see a hard border: it is not acceptable and would not be workable for us.
I assure the Deputy that I have no intention of standing for the return of a hard Border; neither does the British Prime Minister. I am not sure from where the Deputy got the view that my position on the issue had softened. I have made my position very clear and do so again now.
On the appointment of a personal envoy, I did give consideration to appointing a Minister with responsibility for dealing with Brexit.
Every Minister and Minister of State has a responsibility because they are all tied up in it one way or the other. While the Cabinet committee I chair generally comprises senior Ministers, they will all be called because they all have a responsibility. That is why I have asked all of them to have intensive discussions with their counterparts in the context of the forthcoming North-South Ministerial Council in order that we can get a fix on this issue. The majority of our personnel in Brussels who conducted the Presidency at the start of 2013 are still there. We will have access to the negotiations and discussions taking place and will know what is happening.
Will they be members of the negotiating teams?
I will give the details to Deputy Micheál Martin of the changes that have taken place.
How many Cabinet committee meetings have been held?
We have had discussions about this issue at the Cabinet. We have had one or two meetings of the Cabinet committee which has only been established in recent weeks. I will clarify the detail for the Deputy and the numbers and discussions that have taken place.
Was it one or two?
I will have meetings on a regular basis.
I presume there has been one.
We do not have anything like the number of personnel Britain will have, but we have support from ICTU, IBEC and non-governmental organisations, NGOs. As this develops and we form an opinion for the month of November, it will be important that we have an agreed position as to what we should look for because we still do not know and will not know for some time what the British Government will look for. Our interests must be protected, including our links with the United Kingdom and the European Union. I explained in Bratislava to some of the leaders that it was difficult to get the concept if asked by Lithuania, Estonia, Slovakia or Slovenia about the relationship between Ireland and the United Kingdom, including Northern Ireland, England, Scotland and Wales. It is important that we continue to explain just how particular is our relationship with these countries.