Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 30 Nov 2017

Vol. 962 No. 5

Topical Issue Debate

Homelessness Strategy

Deputy Barry Cowen

The sad deaths of two men in less than 24 hours underline the scale of the challenge we face in housing. With their passing and their loss to their friends of families, it is not a time, obviously, for political point scoring. I express my condolences to those who have felt their loss.

It is, however, another call to action to get to grips with the housing crisis. Their passing represents a moral challenge to this House and to the Government. The stakes in this housing crisis could not be higher. It is an immense ethical and economic task. That challenge demands clear concerted action. A Housing First approach is the best mechanism to resolve long-term homelessness. Wraparound services that recognise and deal with the complex needs of people affected by homelessness is the only viable long-term solution. The Government must get bricks and mortar on the ground to deliver the houses that are badly needed to support such an approach.

A number of steps can be taken in the short term to alleviate the crisis that is scouring our cities and towns. Housing charities engaged on the streets in helping those affected have proposed a series of ideas to avoid the tragedies we have seen in the past few days. The Minister, Deputy Eoghan Murphy, should get moving on addressing those ideas, such as out-of-hours response in local authorities, dedicated contact and a formal count of rough sleepers.

Ultimately we need to redouble our efforts to ensure the targets in Rebuilding Ireland are achieved. The repercussions of a lack of supply are felt most severely by those least able to bear it. The sad events of recent days must serve to underline how addressing supply is the key objective. The Government will ultimately be judged on that. I hope the Minister of State can set out what immediate steps he is taking on these issues.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

A number of weekends ago, the Minister, Deputy Eoghan Murphy, speaking on "The Week in Politics" said that the homelessness crisis would get worse before it got better. I do not think even he realised how prophetic his words would be. As Deputy Cowen said, we have had two more deaths of people forced to sleep rough as a result of homelessness. That is seven deaths in a matter of weeks. I also offer my deepest condolences to the families and friends of those who tragically - and unnecessarily in my view - lost their lives.

This comes in the context of a significant increase in the number of rough sleepers - 184 according to the last count. As 50 people availed of the night café on that same night, obviously the number is significantly higher. We also have the highest recorded number of people in emergency accommodation at 8,000, including 3,000 children. As we know, many of those children spend several years in emergency accommodation before getting a permanent home. This does not include adults and children in domestic violence refuges and step-down accommodation. It does not include people given leave to remain who are trapped in direct provision and using direct provision as emergency accommodation or that even wider category of people who have no home of their own, but are sofa-surfing and in imminent risk of homelessness.

As I have said a number of times previously, nobody chooses to sleep rough. People sleep rough because of the absence of emergency accommodation or appropriate, safe and secure accommodation. I understand that the 58-year-old man who tragically died in the Minister's constituency was on a priority list for the Dublin Regional Homeless Executive for Housing First tenancy. The problem was that the executive did not have any properties to offer him. At the same time 1,800 turnkey projects have been offered to the Government for purchase in the last 12 months. Less than 600 are being pursued and even fewer have been purchased or tenanted.

I fully agree with Deputy Cowen that this is not a matter of party politics. However, I appeal to the Minister to review that list of 1,800 turnkey projects and ensure that as many of them as possible are purchased by the State as soon as possible to ensure that the people in emergency housing need or who are being forced to sleep rough are given the opportunity to have a safe and secure home in which to live. I ask the Minister to come back to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Housing, Planning and Local Government with that full list of 1,800 properties that the housing agency and others have and tell us what is happening with them - what properties will be bought and when they will be tenanted - so that no more people end up dying on our streets as a result of rough sleeping and the homelessness crisis.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I join my colleagues in expressing sorrow, sympathy and support for families and friends of the two individuals who died in recent days. For those of us from the constituencies where the deaths happened, it brings the crisis home. I know very well the streets in Ranelagh where that poor man died. It is deeply shocking. There is a sense of loss and tragedy when that occurs. The crisis is right among us in all our communities and is real.

We need to work collaboratively to address this issue. A range of measures are needed. The need for a Housing First response is clear. Unfortunately there have always been cases of rough sleeping. There is now a clear connection between what is happening in our wider housing and homelessness crisis and this, the worst edge of it. We have to connect and tackle it in a co-ordinated way.

All the parties in this House need to identify how we can support the agencies looking to provide housing for people through social welfare and a range of different supported housing needs. People in that sector are increasingly running into difficulty in getting planning permission. We need certainty for those agencies. We need to assist those agencies in the provision of housing, by ensuring the planning process is not a restriction. We need to stand up to the concern that some neighbourhoods have over having a particular type of housing in their midst.

We need to support radical changes in provision. We need to cater for people who are homeless and also to cater for specific categories of people who are in need of supported accommodation. Our party will certainly help through our councillors at local level in identifying sites and ensuring planning permission is as smooth as possible. Local communities need to be brought in behind the sorts of solutions we need, avoiding unnecessary delay in the provision we need to make.

A point that has been repeated ad nauseam but bears repeating is that these terrible tragic incidents highlight that the Government, the Department and local authorities need to step up a gear and adopt a completely different attitude and approach. A person I met recently on the streets of Dublin cited the example that in Britain after the Second World War Chamberlain was instructed by Churchill in the then post-war government to build 3 million houses, and they were built within a certain number of years. That is the level of political commitment that we need.

The Minister of State has the support of all House to do this. His Department officials have to step up to that plate. The urgency and scale of the response required cannot be underestimated.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

First, I wish to pass on my deepest sympathies to the families and friends of the two people who died on the streets, but these deaths, the seven in total who have died in recent weeks, and the 30 or 40 that the Taoiseach said who die every year bring shame on politics, the Government and our society. They are not acceptable but they are not necessary. That is the key point.

We have talked about the vacant homes that exist in this State and gone on to debate the issue and questioned whether there are 180,000 such homes, as indicated by the Central Statistics Office, or a percentage of that figure but, nevertheless, there are thousands of them. The Peter McVerry Trust issued an email this week following the two deaths stating that it estimates that 250 to 300 Housing First solutions would solve the worst aspects of the crisis on the streets, the rough sleeping. There are certainly that number of vacant units and many more, but we must have the determination and will to get hold of them and to make them available to people who are sleeping on the streets. That is what needs to be done. We need to go way beyond that. Unlike the comments we heard from Eileen Gleeson, all of the people who are sleeping on the streets are there because of the failure to provide affordable public housing but many of them do not take up the emergency accommodation because they are terrified.

I got a text yesterday when I was sitting in the Dáil from a man who has been homeless for three years. He is in one of the emergency accommodations in Dublin 8 and he said he is terrified living there. I know some of the emergency accommodation is okay but the Peter McVerry Trust and all the other agencies tell us that, in many cases, it is terrifying to go to those facilities. People are not willing to go to them and then they end up on the streets.

I will not go through all the requests the Peter McVerry Trust has made: the Minister of State will also have received this email. It sets out a series of simple requests which should be met. We need to deal with the vacant homes issue, to get hold of the vacant homes necessary for those Housing First places and then move on to build the council houses that can solve the deeper problem.

Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government (Deputy Damien English)

This week we tragically heard of the deaths of two individuals on our streets. We all agree this is not acceptable and should never happen. It is certainly something that we want to avoid. All Deputies agree that it should be avoidable and that it should not happen. It is as simple as that.

I join the Taoiseach, the Minister, Deputy Eoghan Murphy, and many others in this House in extending my sympathies and condolences to the families of those who died.

The Minister, Deputy Murphy, regrets he cannot be here and had hoped this issue could have been discussed yesterday, but the Deputies will be aware that he has spoken on this issue on a number of occasions in recent days and I know he was being kept informed on this matter all Tuesday evening by the Dublin Region Homeless Executive and officials at his Department. He wanted to be here tonight to be part of this discussion but he just could not make it.

Clearly, this is a very difficult time for those involved and for their families. Out of consideration for the families involved, I ask that we respect their privacy and not speculate on the circumstances of the deceased or the causes of death at this time.

While it is not appropriate to speculate on the circumstances of an individual case, it is appropriate that the House discuss the issue of homelessness and what we are doing to address and support those who are sleeping rough at this time.

As Deputies will be aware, an official count of those sleeping rough in the Dublin region took place on the night of 7 November 2017. A total of 184 individuals were recorded as sleeping rough on that night, which matches the feedback we get from the different agencies. We knew the numbers were 150 to 160 upwards from the reports we had been getting most nights.

As the Minister, Deputy Murphy, has said on a number of occasions, no person should have to sleep on our streets or be without shelter at any time of the year. At the housing summit last September, the Minister, Deputy Murphy, emphasised the need for all housing authorities to have sufficient capacity in emergency accommodation and to have appropriate facilities in place for every person sleeping rough on any night of the week and he instructed the Dublin Region Homeless Executive to ensure the delivery of 200 additional permanent emergency beds by Christmas, building on the new beds that were opened this time last year and since then during this year. The purpose of this was to ensure there will be a bed and all the necessary supports available for anyone who needs them this year.

Fifty of the 200 permanent beds are now in place and the remaining 150 emergency beds will be brought into use in the coming days and weeks and they will all be in place by mid-December. These supports are being put in place with our partner organisations. For example, the new facility which the Minister, Deputy Murphy, visited last week on the Cabra Road is being publicly funded, including through my Department and the local authority, and operated by our partners, the Peter McVerry Trust. The people who use this facility will have access to a range of health and welfare supports as well as food and sanitary facilities which they would not have on the streets. Facilities like this will provide some stability so that the housing authorities and the HSE can work with the individuals involved to create a pathway for them to exist homelessness into independent living.

As the weather becomes colder, my Department has been working with local authorities to ensure that their cold weather initiatives are in place. These arrangements ensure that additional temporary shelter can be brought into use across a range of existing services and facilities for singles and couples who need them during the cold weather. Arrangements are now in place across urban local authorities and additional temporary beds are in the system for those who need them. Anyone who is following this issue understands that when the weather drops to a certain level more people seek to engage and use the existing services.

Our first priority when dealing with homelessness must be to look after those who are most vulnerable - the more than 180 people who are sleeping rough on the streets at night - to get them into safe shelter and then on to one of the many pathways of more secure and sustainable supports, which all the Deputies have raised in regard to the Housing First option.

Exits from rough sleeping into Housing First tenancies are also critical and will continue in parallel with this work. The homeless executive will also implement its targeted programme to reach out to all those sleeping rough and to provide them with the interventions and support they need. Housing First is the best solution, but there are people who need beds immediately, and we are providing those on a permanent basis with the 200 new beds that will be in place by mid-December as well as the temporary beds. I acknowledge that in many cases this is emergency accommodation, which is not ideal for anybody. Certainly the standards are a little higher in the new facilities we have opened and they are a little more user friendly. We must also work on raising the standard of the older facilities. Again, they are only emergency accommodation and were only meant to be temporary. Our efforts have to concentrate on the more permanent solutions and bringing forward housing supply. Deputy Cowen mentioned housing supply. He was right in that the issue is one of supply and bringing onstream new and other houses. Deputy Ó Broin mentioned the issue of vacant properties and we are trying to bring them back into use.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

We should deliver the 250 to 300 Housing First places that the Peter McVerry Trust has asked for. The houses exist and should be identified and made available. Critically, the supports should also be made available. I have a personal friend who I have known since I was 12 years of age who is now homeless again. We had got him onto the Housing First system. He got himself clear of his addiction for about a year running up to that, but the supports were not in place for him. He was put into a place where there was no furniture, no beds, nothing and there was nobody around to support him. He cracked up again and now he is back on the streets. That is what happens if the supports are not provided. This issue is not just about numbers or how many emergency beds we have, it must be about the real supports and working with these human beings to provide them with accommodation that is sustainable.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

We all have similar friends. When we bring the issue down to the personal level it shows that this counts. I have one specific question for the Minister of State. Why is it only in mid-December that those additional 200 units come into place? Given that we know the scale of the numbers has risen and that the cold weather comes in mid-November, why do these additional units not kick in until mid-December, which is very late? The units are welcome, but they are being put in place too late. I understand that all the places were full this week. We did not have the capacity we needed.

The level and scale of this crisis has been clear for many years. Why do we say every year that we are getting there? We always seem to be saying that the facilities are opening next week or the week after. We ran into planning difficulties in the Liberties last year. Why do we not have these facilities in place from mid-October or the end of October? We know it is going to be cold from mid-November onwards. Why does it take so long to get these units in place?

Deputy Barry Cowen

Like the previous speaker, I have questions about the fact that these facilities are not yet available, even though they were supposed to be made available after the summit. We look forward to them being made available as soon as is practically possible. We have been told that funding is not an issue. I would like to see that proven by virtue of the facilities being put in place. Houses should be purchased using the Housing First approach. I remind the House that this problem is not confined to Dublin. I understand the Minister of State will meet representatives of the Midlands Simon Community next week to discuss a funding shortage it is facing at its facilities in Tullamore and Athlone. I implore the Minister of State to meet the funding deficit that exists because it cannot be met from the locality. The Midlands Simon Community provides the only emergency services that are available in Athlone and Tullamore. It is imperative that they be supported. The Minister of State has said this is not an issue. He can prove that by meeting the shortfall that exists. I expect him to do so.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

The Minister of State's disappointing reply was exactly the same as the reply we would have got if the tragic events of recent days had not happened. It was promised under Rebuilding Ireland that there would be 300 new Housing First tenancies within a year, but just 180 of them have been delivered. The target of 300 was not close to enough, given that so many people are spending long periods of time in emergency accommodation. My question is exactly the same as it was. Approximately 1,800 turnkey units that are ready to go have been offered to the Government in the past year. Why are just 600 such units being purchased? Will the Minister of State commit to a review of the entire list? Will he come before the housing committee as a matter of urgency to discuss how many more of those units can be bought and how quickly they can be bought? Although I welcome additional emergency accommodation that is safe and of a good quality, I emphasise that people desperately need homes, rather than emergency accommodation, to be provided as a matter of urgency.

Deputy Damien English

I was about to answer Deputy Ó Broin's specific question when I ran out of time. It was not the Ceann Comhairle's fault; it was probably my fault for speaking slowly for once. The Deputy has suggested that 1,800 homes have been offered to the State in various ways. I am not sure the figure is as high as that, but it is certainly more than 1,000. Like the Deputy, I am not happy with the progress that is being made in this regard. I sat down with the Housing Agency a few weeks ago to try to track the process and see what is causing the delays in completing these transactions. Money has been provided to bring these properties on board, recycle them back out to the local authorities and reinvest the money that accrues from that process in further property transactions. Additional resources will be provided for this activity if it is needed.

The system is not delivering these properties as quickly as it should. Even when the houses have been transferred over, there have been delays in getting tenants to occupy them. This is not acceptable. I have sat down with those involved to talk through the issues. I will be happy to appear before the committee again to go through the issues. There are many quick wins to be gained here. We want vacant properties, including those in the possession of the banks. I think the Deputy understands that not all such properties are suitable. When we go to find them, we learn that some of them are not vacant. They can be unsuitable for other reasons. There are other issues that we can fix through the Housing Agency. It is not good enough that delays are persisting. We will fix the processes. We will deal with them. I think there are approximately 900 properties in view. More than 600 of them have been taken over. I want to be able to purchase the rest. We will look for more because we have the resources to do so. I think we can do that.

Deputy Boyd Barrett has raised other vacant properties. In many cases, they are people's private properties. We do not own them all. We are trying to put a lot of schemes in place to make it attractive to hand them over to us. We will announce additional schemes to make it even more attractive. The Peter McVerry Trust has been engaged by some local authorities to find these properties. Other non-governmental organisations and approved housing bodies have also been asked to do this work. We are all trying to get these vacant properties. I emphasise that the Peter McVerry Trust is part of the solution. It is doing some great work.

On Housing First, I am very disappointed to hear about the case mentioned by Deputy Boyd Barrett. I would love to get the details of it. The whole idea of having the Housing First approach is that the supports are absolutely meant to be there. I would like to track that and see it because it is not good enough. I am very disappointed to hear about it. Perhaps the Deputy and I will have an opportunity to chat about it.

We are trying to drive on the Housing First approach because we all agree it is a major part of the solution. It has been mentioned that just 180 tenancies have been achieved this year. It is not enough. It is below our target. We are appointing a national director of the Housing First scheme to drive it on and make it work. It is the best solution for most people. We need a supply of housing, as Deputy Cowen has said. When we can get the supply of houses, the Housing First approach is ideal for people. We need to make sure the supports are there. I will discuss that with the Deputy on a future occasion. Deputy Ryan raised the same issue. We are dealing with it. I cannot recall the specific question he asked in this regard.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I asked why the additional units are not coming on stream until mid-December.

Deputy Damien English

Some of the new beds being provided under the emergency provision were announced during the year. We put many extra beds in place in the early part of the year. We are committed to doing more. In October 2016 and again in September or October of this year, we sat down with all the people involved in this sector to try to work how many additional emergency beds were needed. We committed resources on the basis of their advice, their rough counts and their research. We knew by September or October what would be needed. Money was set aside. It has taken time. In some cases, it was difficult to get the necessary facilities accepted in local communities. Some politicians, including councillors and Deputies, opposed them as well. That makes it awkward. I welcome Deputy Ryan's support.

Deputy Cowen asked about the Simon Community facilities in Tullamore and Mullingar. I will be happy to engage on this matter when I visit the midlands tomorrow. It was discussed when I did an event with the Dublin Simon Community during the week. Funds are in place to keep the facilities in the midlands open well into the spring. Funding will not be the issue. Westmeath County Council is reviewing the provision of services. It has to ask us for the money. The money is there to supply these services. When all of that has been sorted out, funding will not be an issue. The issues at present relate to the service and the costs. We will tease through that. I assure the Deputy that when an application is made by Westmeath County Council and the evidence is presented, money will be made available.

Deputy Barry Cowen

Does this cover Offaly?

Deputy Damien English

It covers Westmeath and Offaly.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the Minister of State going to bring his chequebook with him tomorrow?

Deputy Damien English

That will not be necessary. These facilities will remain open until February or March.

Deputy Barry Cowen

Money is not an issue.

Deputy Damien English

It is not an issue.

Respite Care Services

Deputy Kevin O'Keeffe

I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Catherine Byrne, for coming to the House. Over 12 months ago, I raised staffing problems at St. Patrick’s Community Hospital, Fermoy, County Cork. We seem to have bigger problems this time. There seems to be a big problem with maintaining staff levels in the hospital. I do not think the HSE is taking a hands-on approach to this job. I spoke recently to a potential applicant for a job in the hospital who was told six months ago their name would be kept on file. When they approached the hospital recently to see whether they could get a position, they were told to reapply.

I particularly want to highlight the non-attendance by a doctor or medical officer at the St. Patrick’s Community Hospital site. This has caused fierce problems for the community. Families who have loved ones at home sometimes put them into respite care at St. Patrick’s Community Hospital for certain periods. It is an invaluable service for them. The HSE has informed us that a solution has been put in place. I will give an example of a person living near Mitchelstown who needs 24-hour care. He was offered a bed in Mallow but this was not sufficient because even with the care and attendance of those who provide cover at St. Patrick’s Community Hospital, he still needs family members to travel and stay with him when he is in hospital. It is a total disgrace that this person and his family members have not received any respite in the past four or five months.

Why has the HSE not acted before now to find a replacement medical officer? I have asked this question previously. I acknowledge that we had an officer who resigned. The most recent officer retired. Anyone in business would have a track record of his or her employees that would indicate who is going to be retiring 12 months down the road, and not just in a couple of weeks or months. I am led to believe that a temporary solution has been found and I acknowledge that. In fairness to the local GPs, they have come together to try to organise a roster. That is no more than a temporary solution. It will not fix the long-term problem that will continue to arise.

There are 72 beds in St. Patrick’s Community Hospital. Previous Governments put tremendous amounts of money into the upgrading of the hospital. It is now acknowledged as one of the best long-term care facilities in County Cork. As I have said previously, this building was falling down some years ago. It was the last place to which one would want to send a loved one. People seem to be dying to get in there now. We do not want to lose this facility but wish to keep it. The town has already lost the St. Francis Welfare Home, which also cared for elderly people and people of no means. I thank the Minister of State for coming to the House this afternoon. I await her response. I know she will sound positive. I want her to set out a longer-term solution that will get this matter resolved.

Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Catherine Byrne)

I thank Deputy O'Keeffe for raising this issue. My colleague, Deputy Jim Daly, the Minister of State with special responsibility for mental health and older people, cannot be here, unfortunately, and has asked me to take this issue.

The overarching policy of the Government is to support older people to live in dignity and independence in their own homes and communities for as long as possible. This is clearly what older people want and only those in genuine need of residential care should go down that route. Short-term beds, including respite and rehabilitation beds, contribute to the provision of an integrated model of care for older people, enabling them to return home following a period of hospital care or to postpone admission to long-stay residential care.

The Health Service Executive is responsible for the delivery of health and personal social services, including those at facilities such as St. Patrick’s Community Hospital in Fermoy. The community hospital provides long-term respite, convalescent and palliative care. It was registered with the Health Information and Quality Authority on 28 June 2015 for a period of three years. The hospital normally caters for people over 65 years of age but also provides care to young chronically sick patients and palliative care to adults. The Deputy will be aware that the five-year capital programme announced last year includes refurbishment works at the hospital.

Challenges emerged in recent months in respect of medical cover at the hospital, which is provided by three local GP practices. One practice provided this service three days a week. The remaining two practices provided the service on the fourth and fifth days. Following the resignation of a medical officer in-----

An Ceann Comhairle

I am sorry to interrupt the Minister of State. Are there not seven days in a week?

Deputy Kevin O'Keeffe

I counted.

Deputy Catherine Byrne

There could be. Actually there is. I will read what is here and then I will come back to that question. I thank the Ceann Comhairle. Following the resignation of a medical officer in 2017, the HSE managed, with great difficulty, to engage another GP to provide the service. However, in September 2017 a second medical officer retired. Despite strenuous efforts to engage another GP in the area the HSE was unable to source GP cover for the fifth day. The HSE decided that it was necessary to protect the 54 long-stay beds and that the respite service affecting nine beds in Fermoy had to be curtailed. This service was to be provided by local nursing homes.

I am pleased to advise Deputy O’Keeffe that, following a recent meeting with a local general practitioner, agreement has been reached to provide the necessary medical cover on a temporary basis. This will enable respite beds to reopen in the community hospital in Fermoy. I understand that this is expected to happen in the coming days and patients are booked in for next week. The public health nurse continues to liaise with the families. As I have said, this is a temporary measure and the Health Service Executive has confirmed to the Department that the Cork and Kerry community health care organisation will continue in its efforts to find a permanent sustainable solution. Officials from the Department will continue to monitor this situation carefully and the HSE has been asked to keep the Minister of State, Deputy Jim Daly, updated on progress.

I will come in on some of the issues which the Deputy raised when I respond to his supplementary statement. I take note that the statement only covers five days.

Deputy Kevin O'Keeffe

I thank the Minister of State for taking time out to deliver this statement on health. I received a similar response from the HSE to a parliamentary question which I raised in early October. The Minister of State has outlined the problems, but we do not seem to be getting any solutions. She mentioned that the beds would be opened up soon, but I am reliably informed that not all of the beds will be made available. I do not know if we will also have staffing problems. The ironic thing about this is that there are SouthDoc facilities less than 50 yards down the road from the hospital.

In this day and age and with modern technology, how can this happen? Yesterday I listened to a GP who was before the Joint Committee on Health speaking about technology and using Skype for consultations instead of people having to visit the GP in person. There was a headline in the newspaper this morning which said that it could take a week to get a GP appointment. These people just want beds and care in order that their family members can have a bit of respite for themselves. The Minister of State knows that people become accustomed to their surroundings. It is not fair to send them all over the county to different beds at different times. I will give the Minister of State an example. A while ago I mentioned the closure of St. Francis Welfare Home. It was forcibly closed and the four or five remaining patients were relocated. I would say that they had all gone to their eternal rewards within 18 months because they never became accustomed to their newfound locations. That is why I brought this matter before the Minister of State today. I know she will pass the buck to the HSE but, at the same time, she is in government. The long-term situation is that we have the facility. Will the Minister of State please get it staffed properly?

Deputy Catherine Byrne

First of all, I have been in situations, as has Deputy O'Keeffe, where services have been suspended for short periods of time. The difficulty is trying to get proper staff. I will, however, take on the Deputy's concerns. To be honest, I am not familiar with Fermoy. I will speak to the Minister of State, Deputy Daly, about the issue. I have taken down a number of the Deputy's points, and also the point which the Ceann Comhairle raised about the five-day service. I am not too sure what happened to the other two days. I will try to find out.

All I can say is that the solution in place at the moment is temporary. I think that has been identified by the Minister and by the HSE. There is a real effort being made to provide a proper service with permanent staff. We all know the pressure which rural GPs in particular are under in respect of staff and services. I am afraid I cannot answer some of the Deputy's direct questions, but I will ask the Minister of State, Deputy Daly, to come back to Deputy O'Keeffe on them. As I have said, I am not familiar with the service in the area in question, but I understand where the Deputy is coming from. It can be very upsetting not only for the patient but also for the family when older persons are shunted from one service to another. It can affect them greatly. We must all do our best on this matter. Unfortunately, it is difficult to get staff at the moment. We all understand that. However, that should not be an excuse for not providing people with a proper service. I will relay the Deputy's concerns to the Minister of State and I hope he will return to him. We might have a better outcome to this matter in a few weeks. I take on board the Deputy's concerns and I will take on board what the Ceann Comhairle has said about the five-day service. It could be a seven-day service.

Deputy Kevin O'Keeffe

It is a good point.

An Ceann Comhairle

I wish to make it clear that I appreciate the Minister of State being present and taking this question. I attribute no blame to her but one of my responsibilities on foot of Dáil reform is to adjudicate on the quality-----

Deputy Catherine Byrne

That is fine.

An Ceann Comhairle

-----of answers that are produced. Whoever produced that reply, which suggested that care was available over five of the seven days, was certainly not addressing the real needs of the people of Fermoy.

Deputy Catherine Byrne

I will take that on board.

An Ceann Comhairle

I thank the Minister of State. We will move to the next item, in the name of Deputy John Brady. It is a question to the Minister of Transport, Tourism and Sport on what the Deputy describes as the downgrading of DART stations.

Railway Stations

Deputy John Brady

There is real genuine concern among people right across the east coast who use the DART service that the downgrading of stations seems to be going ahead. It is certainly going ahead in my constituency. I am aware the Minister is also a resident of the Wicklow constituency. To use a terrible pun, it is full steam ahead for the downgrading of Greystones DART station. Iarnród Éireann has put out tenders to let the train station out as a commercial premises. The station will move to an unmanned service, which will have detrimental impacts on the people in Greystones, young and old, but on disabled users in particular. I have been hearing from staff within Iarnród Éireann that there are broader, larger plans to move towards a greater number of unmanned stations. We know this is not only being rolled out on the DART line but throughout the rail service across the State. To date, 34 train stations have moved from a manned service to an unmanned service. As I touched on, this will have an impact on people and communities. It will affect elderly people as no one will be available to help them to purchase their tickets. It will also affect our disabled citizens. There has been some positive progress in respect of access to public transport for people with disabilities.

At this point I want to put on record my sincere condolences to a constituent, friend and colleague of mine, John Doyle, who during the course of his life was a disability rights campaigner who campaigned for independent living.

He passed away on Sunday night and his funeral took place this morning. Throughout his life, John, along with others, fought long and hard to try to make our public transport system accessible to people with disabilities. He and others were fundamental in forcing Dublin Bus into acquiring the new bus fleet, with low floors accessible by wheelchairs, that was rolled out in the 1990s. There has been progress on that, and also in terms of the 24-hour notice which wheelchair users and people with disabilities have to give to train stations and Iarnród Éireann. A trial programme will be rolled out in the new year and this will reduce the notice period for people with disabilities who want to use public transport to four hours. That is not acceptable. There should be total equality across the board. People with disabilities should be able to use our public transport services at any time without having to give notice. Reducing the notice period to four hours is welcome, but it should be zero hours.

The downgrading of DART stations is going to have a major impact and will destroy any progress that has been made. I am informed that a plan for Greystones, which will see it become an unmanned train station in the new year, is due to be rolled out. Is the Minister aware of any other plans? Has he been speaking to the NTA or Iarnród Éireann about plans to have other unmanned DART stations in Dublin and Wicklow? What consultation has taken place?

Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport (Deputy Shane Ross)

I thank Deputy Brady for raising this very important matter. It is quite unusual for a Deputy to be questioning a constituent and making that constituent accountable for what happens in his or her own constituency. However, I am happy to answer his question about accessibility.

I take the Deputy's point about reduction to a four-hour notice period not being sufficient. People with impaired mobility are currently required to notify train stations of their intention to travel at least 24 hours in advance if they require assistance. I agree that this is totally unacceptable and that we should aspire to total equality between people with and without disabilities in accessing public transport. Irish Rail hopes to commence, early in the new year, a pilot project in respect of the DART which is aimed at reducing the period of advanced notice from 24 hours to four by guaranteeing staffing across grouped stations and ensuring flexibility to enable staff to move between stations to provide assistance. Irish Rail anticipates that the pilot project will run for six months, at which point the information gleaned will be used to inform how best to develop its customer service across all networks. I hope that particular experiment will extend beyond Irish Rail to Dublin Bus and other public transport services.

I completely accept Deputy Brady's bona fides. He highlights the need for haste in this matter. Things seem to be moving very slowly. The amount of money that has been allocated to improve accessibility this year and into the future has increased enormously, and will, while I am a Minister, increase even faster. The four-year capital envelope for public transport announced in budget 2018 includes a multi-annual allocation of almost €28 million for the accessibility retrofit programme for the period 2018 to 2021. This represents a trebling of the previous allocation for accessibility under the plan. That is a convincing commitment to public transport accessibility, on which I insisted. I recognise that difficulties exist not only in the context of the downgrading of the DART but also in other areas of public transport. That is why we have given such a large increase to improve accessibility. It is also why we are launching this pilot scheme to see if we can reduce the notice period. Ideally, there would be no notice period. However, we cannot achieve that overnight.

There are also other projects involving Dublin Bus. In conjunction with the Minister of State at the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Finian McGrath, I launched a "Please Don't Buggy in the Wheelchair Zone" campaign with Dublin Bus recently. The purpose of this campaign is to deal with the issue of buggies blocking access for people with wheelchairs. There is a public campaign to increase awareness about this issue. Please do not doubt the commitment of the Government to this issue. It is being hastened and is a priority. We will insist upon that.

On the issue of the Greystones Station, Iarnród Éireann has taken the opportunity to assess whether there is any commercial interest in the ground floor of the station building, particularly as the existing area reserved for retail is vacant. While seeking expressions of interest, there has been no change to any arrangements - including staffing - of how the station functions. Iarnród Éireann will be in a position to assess the degree of commercial interest in the station building early next year. This will enable it to make a decision on the station's future use and it will be done in tandem with a review of staffing. Customer needs will be taken into consideration should there be any change.

Deputy John Brady

I want to hone in on one sentence the Minister uttered. He said that ideally we could get to a position where people with disabilities will not need to give notice. However, the move towards unmanned DART stations will ensure that never happens. We need stations to be manned in order that disabled citizens can be assisted in getting on and off public transport. While the Minister may aspire to that, if the downgrading of our train or DART stations goes ahead, we will ensure that citizens will not get equal access to public transport. There is real concern about this. I am hearing from staff in Iarnród Éireann that this is a done deal.

There is talk of letting out the train station in Greystones to commercial interests. I would argue that the space there is not available at the moment because it is used as staff quarters. The company is moving quite swiftly towards converting it to an unmanned station. What other DART stations are being looked at in this regard? Has consultation taken place, particularly with disability organisations? There is concern about this matter. Sydney Parade Station services St. Vincent's Hospital and we know there are no direct buses from Wicklow that serve the hospital. The DART is the only public transport available in this regard. If that station is not manned, people with disabilities will be disenfranchised; they will not be able to get to St. Vincent's. Sandymount Station services the Enable Ireland premises that houses a school for disabled children. If that station is not manned, there are going to be problems.

Ideally, there should be no notice period. What specific consultations have taken place with Iarnród Éireann?

Deputy Shane Ross

I have responsibility for policy and overall funding of public transport. I am not involved in the day-to-day operation of public transport. The operation of DART stations is a matter for Iarnród Éireann and is not an issue in respect of which I have any statutory function.

For customers requiring assistance, Iarnród Éireann plans to confirm new arrangements for mobility-impaired customers shortly which will dramatically reduce the current advance notification period and ensure a better response when customers requiring assistance cannot give notice. These new arrangements are being designed following extensive customer research and liaison with the company's disability users' group.

It is absolutely imperative that people with disabilities are accommodated and we should aspire to the ideal we both mentioned. Like every service, CIÉ, Iarnród Éireann and Dublin Bus must continually adapt and change in line with trends in customer behaviour and technology. We cannot ignore advancing technology.

Regarding the issue of station staffing which the Deputy mentioned, I understand from Iarnród Éireann that this is under review in response to changed customer behaviour, with customers moving to prepaid ticketing and ticket vending machines. This obviously alters the pattern of how stations are staffed. The company has indicated that key stations such as Killester and Sandymount, which are adjacent to major facilities for the mobility-impaired, will always be staffed.

An Ceann Comhairle

I thank the Members and the Ministers who dealt with the issues raised.