Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 18 Oct 2022

Vol. 1027 No. 7

Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate

Renewable Energy Generation

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as teacht isteach chomh déanach seo. This is a question I have been looking to put for quite a while. It is something the Government needs to take seriously. This is a space in which we need to be proactive and engage with all stakeholders, including developers, the ESB and other electrical and energy providers.

The long and short definition, as I understand it from a layman's point of view, is that private wire is essentially where private industry, particularly large energy users like pharmaceutical companies, data centres and so on are essentially taken off-grid and they try to provide as much of their own energy through wind or solar power as possible, perhaps with the help of a nearby farmer or whatever the case may be. This allows these companies to provide for the vast majority of their energy needs. The difficulty is that the ESB has full power over consent in this area.

As I understand it, private wire is covered under section 37 of the Electricity Regulation Act 1999. Essentially in many cases it allows for the ESB to be very slow at engaging with these big developments. The ESB does not want to see these large energy users becoming self-sustainable because it is not in the long-term interests of the ESB. It does not want to see large profitable consumers of energy and customers going off-grid. In the long term it is taking a view that it will damage its profit margins. I am extremely worried about this area. I submitted a parliamentary question to the Department which is dated 21 September. In the reply the Minister said this is a commitment under the Climate Action Plan 2021. The plan includes a commitment to review this policy. The aim was that the review would be undertaken by the first quarter of this year. Unfortunately we are now in the fourth quarter. It is six to nine months down the line and we are still waiting for the review.

This is an urgent matter. People are facing ever-growing bills. We look across the water at what is going on in the UK and the extortionate amounts people are paying for energy. Thankfully the Government has stepped in in the short term here and provide €200 energy credits over a period of time. This is very welcome. In the long run we know from the forecast of the energy regulator, and from anybody in the field, that we are facing a decade when we will struggle to keep up with demand. This is something on which we need to act now. By the Department's own admission it is something we should have acted on in the first quarter of this year. I am very concerned because this is not the only issue on which we are behind schedule. There are also the wind and solar energy guidelines that seem to have been going on forever. It is almost depressing when we get responses that state we are behind schedule and we will catch up. I hope the Minister will have a positive response that will outline exactly what he and the Department will do on this urgent issue.

Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications (Deputy Eamon Ryan)

I thank the Deputy for raising this important topic. I will set out the policy position and outline the views of stakeholders on the issue. I will then discuss the proposed consultation. The current legislative framework does not for the most part allow for privately-owned power lines. The ESB is the sole distribution asset owner and ESB Networks is the sole distribution system operator in the State. On a practical level this means the ESB owns the electricity distribution while ESB Networks, a subsidiary of the ESB, builds and maintains all distribution level network infrastructure.

The Deputy may be interested to know this position has its roots in the early years of the State when the ESB was established by the Electricity (Supply) Act 1927. On its establishment it was placed in charge of operating, managing and maintaining what we now know as the Ardnacrusha power plant along with distributing electricity nationwide. The ESB chose, as allowed for under the Act, to take on the direct responsibility of distributing electricity to consumers and set about creating our electricity network. The results of this decision, once fully enacted and after the ESB had acquired all existing electricity undertakings operating in the State, was the creation of a standardised national network in the control of the ESB.

The current electricity market environment is very different, with a liberalised and interconnected market in operation. However, as the Irish energy sector evolves further and moves towards renewables and a zero-carbon economy we must review the environment in which electricity suppliers operate. The Electricity Regulation Act 1999 provides in limited circumstances for the construction by private entities of electricity lines and infrastructure. However the Act also provides that the ESB can gain ownership of such constructions, either through agreement or at the direction of the Commission for Regulation of Utilities. Notwithstanding the current position in respect of direct lines and private wires, it is important to emphasise the scale and ambition of what we are looking to do to reduce our dependency on fossil fuels and make Ireland a world leader in delivering renewable energy as part of our drive towards a low-carbon system.

The Government is very aware of calls from stakeholders for amendments to be made to the legislation and regulations on direct lines and private wire networks. Officials from the Department have met and continue to engage with interested parties and stakeholders in the area. These stakeholders have indicated that amendments to the status quo could allow for the deployment of more renewables across the electricity sector while reducing overall grid demand. They outlined three key areas where they wish to see direct lines and-or private networks providing electricity. These include business enterprise parks, large energy users and renewable energy communities. It has been outlined to officials that allowing for private networks for business parks and large energy users would have sectoral benefits for Ireland. These include increasing the attractiveness of our country as a base for foreign direct investment. It would also provide an environment for renewable generation. It is noteworthy that stakeholders have highlighted that there is a desire among many large corporations, in particular technology companies, to have renewable sources of generation directly linked or owned by the company.

Ireland has ambitious climate targets as I set out earlier. I believe the development of private wires can and will have a significant role in helping to meet them. Action No. 115 of the climate action plan commits the Department to reviewing the policy options on allowing private networks and direct lines. Government policy is that the ESB is the sole distribution asset owner and ESB Networks is the sole distribution system operator. In the interests of clarity it is warranted to point out there is a clear distinction between a private network and a direct line. The consultation will seek views and report on both matters. A direct line is regarded by the Department as a privately owned power line that connects one generator with one energy user. A private network on the other hand is a privately owned and operated electricity distribution network connecting end users with generators.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

I thank the Minister. To be fair that is a very substantive response and I appreciate it. I do have several issues. I have listened to many people from Government parties and the Opposition speaking about offshore wind energy. The harsh reality is we are being told it will take an average of seven years to do it here but when we look at our European counterparts, such as Slovakia, it can take as little as 18 months. It is laughable. It is actually quite worrying to read in the Minister's response that the ESB is the sole provider and sole distributor. Let us call it for what it is: it is a monopoly.

I am glad the Minister is having a public consultation. How long will it last? When is it due to conclude? When does the Minister hope to implement any recommendation there may be? The targets we have and the implementation of the climate action plan are also quite welcome and we are all supportive of them. This area will be very important and central to the plan.

It is also worth noting that in the Minister's opening remarks he said this is governed by the Electricity (Supply) Act 1927. That is nearly a century ago. Given the energy crisis we are in it is a perfect example of why we need to get on with the consultation and get on with implementing any amendment the Minister may have. Already over in the UK, Centrica, which is the parent company of Bord Gáis, has made a strategic decision to no longer supply large energy users such as those we are speaking about. We are speaking about potential blackouts in future years. We are speaking about demand exceeding supply in the coming decade. We need to get on with this and we need to stop delaying.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

The consultation is due to conclude at the very latest early next year but the officials hope it can be concluded before the end of this year. I will be very keen to see a rapid conclusion. It will not come to a decision but it will elucidate the various views. This is a complex issue. It has been looked at for many years. It has been stalled by concerns about possible unintended consequences. My view is that we are in changing market circumstances. Power is very tight and we are now at the very edge of any country's development of renewables. If we are to have a balancing capability, where it is not just for power generation but also for potential storage solutions, then private wires could provide us with support integrated into the grid.

The environment is changing and it may allow us the opportunity to start developing self-generation in this way, be it through private direct wires or networks where we move away from the historical position and start looking at the sort of potential that is available. We have to be careful and make sure it does not undermine other investments or the ESB network, which is a vital piece of infrastructure for us. There is real potential to bring new power generation into a country where that will be critical in the next ten years as well as new balancing capabilities.

EirGrid is saying that it wants to work with large energy users in terms of flexible demand response and their generation helping the system when times are difficult. In that sort of changing and evolving market, it seems to be that the balance will move towards allowing private wires and self-generation, which large industrial users have been seeking for some time but we have not been able to deliver.

I will await the conclusion of the consultation before finalising the arrangements, but that has to happen within months, not any longer than that.

Disability Services

Deputy Joan Collins

Last Thursday, I was contacted by constituents, parents and service users about St. Michael's House, 18 Cromwellsfort Road, Dublin 12. A man who has Apert syndrome and has relied on the service for approximately 20 years was advised on Wednesday that he would have to arrange his own transport to get to the service. Heretofore, buses used to transport service users from 8 a.m. to 10 a. m. and 2.30 p.m. to 5 p.m. Staff at St. Michael's House, which is a section 38 facility funded by the HSE, are also distraught by this situation.

I contacted St. Michael's House and the transport manager. I was advised that due to the Covid situation, a number of drivers in their late 50s and 60s have not come back to work because of health reasons and replacing them has become an issue. There is also the issue of not being able to recruit escorts. I spoke to the manager of the transport section, who was very helpful, about recruitment and retention and he advised that driver numbers are down by nearly one third. He would usually be able to get relief drivers but they are not available either. The whole situation has dried up.

There is a short-term and long-term crisis. In the short term, they need to be able to get the service user to the centre over the next period of time. Service users have not been able to use the service since last Thursday. The transport manager suggested that taxis should be provided to services users in the short term but the funding is not available. Special funding would need to be provided for that in the interim or a system of sharing buses from other services would need to be worked out.

In the long term, drivers need to be trained to the level of D1 - minibus drivers - and it needs to be done quickly. It is taking the Road Safety Authority at least eight weeks to perform tests. Garda vetting will also have to be done and then the training. Therefore, it will not happen today or tomorrow. This will be a long-term resolution. Carers need a Quality and Qualifications Ireland, QQI, level 5 qualification to escort the service users. I have been advised that the past two and a half months were worse than the two and a half years of the Covid pandemic. The transport manager had 43 buses running before Covid and has only 29 running now.

As I said, funding will be required in the short term to provide an interim service to the centre's service users and a long-term plan is needed to get transport for these services back on the road again. The Minister has to sit down with the transport manager and representatives from St. Michael's House. I know it is affecting other units, although the unit up the road, St. Michael's House at 107 Cromwellsfort Road, has no problems, I presume because it held on to its drivers since the Covid pandemic. These service users and parents cannot be left in a lacuna, not accessing services. This is not on and it has to be resolved.

Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Frankie Feighan)

I thank Deputy Collins for raising this issue and I want to set out a few relevant points. The Department of Health and the HSE provide specialist disability services, including day services and rehabilitative training, to people with disabilities who require such services. The provision or management of transport services does not fall within the remit of the Department of Health nor is it a service for which the HSE has responsibility or provides funding. Therefore, day service funding and supports do not include the provision of transport services.

Having said that, some transport supports are provided by the HSE or by funded agencies on a discretionary basis, and a variety of transport solutions are pursued in different community healthcare organisation, CHO, areas. These include travel training to enable public transport to be used upon commencement of a day programme where applicable; local transport such as Local Link, private bus transport providers and taxis, funded via a combination of service provider, HSE funding, service user contribution, and-or combined funding; and some service providers providing transport where capacity exists.

I should point out that, in general, day service users are in receipt of disability allowance and are automatically entitled to a free travel pass. There are improvements in access to a range of transport supports available to persons with disabilities in the State, for example, the disabled drivers and disabled passengers scheme operated by the Revenue Commissioners; the free travel scheme operated by the Department of Social Protection; and CLÁR funding, approved by the Minister for Rural and Community Development to voluntary organisations providing transport for people with significant mobility issues. Under the National Disability Inclusion Strategy 2017-2021, the Department of Transport has responsibility for the continued development of accessible public transport.

The Deputy raised some pertinent issues such as the fact that driver numbers are down by one third, the training of drivers could take up to eight weeks, the issues of Garda vetting as well as funding for the provision of taxis. I will raise the Deputy's concerns with the Minister. It will involve a cross-departmental approach. This is an issue and it is an anomaly. What people need to do now is try to iron out this complex but resolvable issue with the relevant stakeholders and Departments.

Deputy Joan Collins

I welcome the Minister of State’s response, but it is important to get those stakeholders together as quickly as we can because I believe it is resolvable. From my point of view, it is about the people who need the service and the transport. As I said, an older man who had been using the services for 20 years was told, all of a sudden, that he no longer had transport. He cannot physically get onto public transport.

I welcome this response. It should be done in the next week or two to address the short-term and long-term issues. Securing drivers seems to be a big issue even in Bus Éireann and other bus companies. When I was talking to the manager of the transport sector, a guy in private transport was also there who said that he has 48 buses but was only operating 32 now because he does not have the staff. They have not been able to get people in to take up those jobs. There has to be a logical and planned approach to dealing with this issue. When will the Minister of State get that pulled together?

Deputy Frankie Feighan

I will raise it with the relevant Departments and see what we can do. Perhaps the Deputy could send an email requesting the meeting because it is a cross-departmental area. I understand there was some issue with the allocation of this Topical Issue matter. The Department of Health has asserted the issue at St. Michael's House developed due to a combination of factors as outlined by the Deputy.

In this case, a recent driver retirement and other long-term vacancies meant that St. Michael's House could no longer sustain the route, which the Deputy mentioned. The process of establishing more detailed information on the service is under way between the Department of Health and the HSE. My colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, will be happy to follow up with the Deputy on this matter.

Action 104 of the national disability inclusion strategy, NDIS, contains a commitment to review all Government funded transport and mobility supports, and develop proposals for better co-ordination in the space. The transport working group, chaired by the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, met most recently in September 22. Members of the group have been requested to submit proposals to fulfil the requirement of action 104 for consideration by the group at its next and final meeting in November 2022. It is intended that a report and proposal will be prepared and submitted before the current NDIS comes to an end on 31 December 2022. As I said, the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, will be happy to follow up with the Deputy on this matter. If she wants to send me an email I can forward that to the Department.

Defective Building Materials

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

We have a humanitarian crisis in Donegal and the west of Ireland. Families are living in homes that are crumbling around them. They are in dangerous homes this winter. However, one would not know it in this Government because not only is the Minister not here, he has two Ministers of State in his Department, but not a single one bothered to show up to listen to appeals from three democratically elected representatives of the people here tonight. We are united together to make the case for families in the west of Ireland living in crumbling homes. They cannot find temporary accommodation to move into. They are stuck in a logjam in a scheme whereby they cannot get access to funding, even if they could get temporary accommodation. I have asked the Minister to task the Housing Agency and local authorities in Donegal, Mayo, Clare and Limerick with assisting families in finding temporary accommodation and consider modular housing. No action has been taken. There is no show tonight. It is absolutely shameful.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

In July, I visited the home of Sharon Moss in Letterkenny, along with my colleagues, Deputies Mac Lochlainn and Doherty. Sharon's home is one of the worst defective block homes I have been in. The walls are crumbling and half of the house cannot be occupied. One would have to be there to experience the smell of damp and rot throughout the house. One would not allow a rat to live in a property like it. Sharon has applied for the defective blocks scheme. She is one of the 500 or so applications from Donegal, Mayo and other counties that are stuck. The problem is that she is facing into a very bleak winter, living in a property that was not fit for human habitation in the summer months. In the winter months, it is an enormous problem. While the Department is working on the new regulations for the enhanced scheme, which we will deal with when it comes forward, right now families desperately need emergency intervention in Donegal, Mayo, Clare, Tipperary, Sligo and elsewhere. While I know it is not the Minister of State's Department, I implore him to listen to the three Deputies here, and go back to the line Minister responsible and urge him to get local authorities and the Housing Agency involved in order to provide some temporary relief for these families while they are waiting for the long promised and overdue enhanced scheme.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Homeowners across Mayo are concerned about their energy bills. Can the Minister of State imagine what it is like for homeowners trying to heat homes where cracks are coming down the walls and the wind is blowing through them? People have astronomical bills, on top of what they already have to deal with, yet many are locked out of the scheme because they cannot afford to go onto the next stages. I spoke to a woman in Westport last week. On top of having paid for a test to be in the first stage, an engineer is now demanding €11,000 in order for her to proceed to the next stage. It is unaffordable for many people. People are stuck in this situation. Each winter, people face into the summer and think by this winter they will have a solution, yet homeowners across Mayo find they are facing into another winter and are still on their own. They still do not have a scheme that is fit for purpose. They have submitted a number of questions on the progress on regulations, when they will be shared with homeowners and what assessment has been completed on the damaged thresholds. There are too many loose ends in the scheme that need to be tied up. As Deputy Mac Lochlainn correctly said, the Minister or one of the Ministers of State in the Department should be here to answer these questions.

Deputy Frankie Feighan

I thank Deputies for raising this matter and for the opportunity to provide an update on behalf of the Minister and the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. As Deputies know, following the decision of the Government on 30 November 2021 in respect of the enhanced defective concrete blocks grant scheme, the Government approved the Remediation of Dwellings Damaged By the Use of Defective Concrete Blocks Bill 2022 on 21 June. The Bill passed both Houses of the Oireachtas and was subsequently signed into law by the President on 23 July 2022. The Act includes significant improvements to the current scheme and several enhancements.

The maximum grant cap for grant assistance under the scheme has been increased from €247,500 to €420,000. The current 90% maximum grant was increased to a 100% grant for all remediation options 1 to 5, subject to the overall cap in grant rates. Exempt development status has been provided for on a like-for-like basis. There is the provision of a Government guarantee on remediation works, other than the full demolition and rebuild through eligibility for a second grant, if required, for a period of 40 years. Alternative accommodation, storage costs and immediate repair works to a maximum value of €25,000 within the overall grant cap have been included.

The Housing Agency will play a key role under the scheme by taking on the financial cost of testing and assessing homes and determining, on behalf of local authorities, the appropriate remediation option and grant rate for each dwelling. The scheme has been extended to Clare, Limerick and other counties, as required. A new independent appeals process has been introduced. As an interim measure, significant improvements were made to the existing grant scheme in February 2022 by way of SI 85 of 2022, which includes a provision for the inclusion as an allowable cost of essential remediation immediate repair works up to a value of €5,555 and relates to the structural stability of any part of the home affected by defective concrete blocks. This funding for immediate repairs is available now and will also be available under the enhanced grant scheme upon its commencement.

Regarding alternative temporary accommodation, it should be noted that the enhanced grant scheme includes provision for €15,000 to be made available to affected homeowners to assist in temporary accommodation. Donegal County Council sought approval from the Department for two facilitator posts in Donegal to support homeowners through the defective concrete blocks, DCB, process. The role of facilitators will include guiding homeowners through the DCB application process and facilitating the homeowner to access all other relevant support services, including options for alternative accommodation or storage. I want to confirm that a letter of approval supporting the post of facilitators to assist homeowners through an enhanced DCB grant scheme has been issued and work on drafting the necessary regulations has commenced with the intention of having the enhanced scheme ready for application early in the new year.

Deputy Mac Lochlainn referred to modular housing. I will bring that proposal to the Minister in the Department. On Sharon Moss's house in Letterkenny, it is hugely worrying and disappointing. I am glad Deputy Conway-Walsh raised her case in the Dáil today. Emergency interventions on behalf of local authorities were mentioned, as well as the assistance homeowners need in order to move to the next stage. There are some difficulties. It may be we will be able to iron out these difficulties by working together. I will bring the concerns of the Deputies back to the Minister and I thank them for raising this very difficult and necessary Topical Issue.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

I appreciate the Minister of State is reading the response from the Department and Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, but it is disappointing to hear it.

Clearly, whoever wrote this, including the Minister, who signed off on it, does not understand what is happening in the counties we are talking about in the west. Right now, as we speak, people are living in homes that are not fit for human habitation. They do not have access to the €15,000 because they are not through stage 1 of the scheme. Why? They are not through stage 1 because they are caught in a quagmire. It is bureaucracy and failure by the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. They cannot access €15,000 and, even if they could, it is very hard to find alternative accommodation.

This is a humanitarian crisis. The Minister should have been here tonight. He needs to read this transcript, urgently. He needs to come up to Donegal and visit some of these houses and see for himself what we are talking about. These people should not be in these homes this winter. They need accommodation urgently and I am asking that he look especially at high-quality, modular housing located throughout the county. It needs to happen now.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

The Minister needs to come to Mayo. He needs to talk to these homeowners. They are absolutely sick and tired of the scheme being presented as if somehow it is being gifted to them by the Government. What is forgotten in all of this is that these people have been failed time and again. They have been failed in the very beginning by the light regulation and in how they have been exposed to the injustices they have suffered under this scheme. It needs to be fixed once and for all.

These people never wanted to access this scheme. All they wanted was their original homes and now they find themselves in a situation, time and again, where they are continually let down by this Government. I know it was not the Minister of State's Government. I know the Fianna Fáil Government was at the behest of the builders and the people who are responsible for this but it has to be fixed.

Deputy Frankie Feighan

I take on board the Deputies' concerns and the fact they are calling for high-quality, modular housing to be located in Donegal and probably other countries. I will certainly bring those concerns and the proposal that he visit back to the Minister. The purpose of the Remediation of Dwellings Damaged By the Use of Defective Concrete Blocks Act 2022 is to implement and give legislative underpinning to a series of measures to approve and enhance the defective concrete blocks, DCB, scheme, as agreed by the Government on 13 November 2021. This improvement includes a 100% grant subject to an overall maximum grant of €420,000.

Officials from the Department have been in ongoing engagement with Donegal County Council, especially on the implementation of the scheme and have recently approved the role of two facilitators to assist and it is hoped those facilitators will be able to get in there. The Deputies could give those names and addresses and we could try to note them and iron out the difficulties the Deputies have outlined.

Ongoing engagement also continues between the homeowners and the Minister's nominated homeowner liaison, Mr. John O'Connor, and the Department as to the designed implementation of the new scheme. Legislation is being progressed. Earlier this month, the Department published a comprehensive and updated the Your Questions Answered document on its website to ensure homeowners have the most up-to-date information available to them.

We will continue to work on the regulations that underpin the enhanced scheme in order to have it up and running as early as possible. I am sure, in some situations, there will be anomalies and difficulties and sometimes it is not perfect. The Deputies are here tonight to raise these concerns. I will bring the concerns back to the Minister and if the Deputies wish to send me an email about the difficulties, I will send that on to the Minister as quickly as possible.

Energy Conservation

Deputy David Stanton

This topic has been discussed over many years. The former Deputy Tommy Broughan, the late Senator Feargal Quinn and I and, most recently, Senator Tim Lombard have raised this issue in these Houses. Numerous reports have been carried out here and abroad on this. The fact of the matter is that approximately 12 days from now, winter will have arrived. The clocks will go back one hour and we will have dark evenings. One week from now, sunset will be at 6.20 p.m. and two weeks from now, it will be dark just after 5 p.m.

Many arguments have been put forward over the years with regard to road safety and the benefit to tourism of having brighter evenings; this would also benefit shopping, retail, farming and recreation and, even in the United States, it was found that when an adjustment was made, crime levels fell because criminals like darkness - they do not like light.

In July, the EU Ministers reached a political agreement on a voluntary reduction of natural gas demand by 15% this winter. The world changed on 24 February 2022 and the big imperative now is energy. Arguments have been made and people such as Professor Aoife Foley have said that if we maintain summertime, households could save between €250 and €400 per year. We would also reach the situation of reducing the gas and electricity we use and have longer evenings for all kinds of reasons. The world changed on 24 February when Russia invaded Ukraine. We must do all we can in Ireland and in Europe to reduce energy consumption and the amount of electricity we use. One argument is that it be done by not moving the clocks. Another is that the moving of the clocks be deferred.

I note that in Ireland, for instance, we moved the clocks forward on 27 March. In the United States, it was done two weeks earlier on 13 March. On the other side of the year, in Ireland, we move the clocks back on 30 October and in the United States they wait until 6 November. The United States has gained three weeks of summertime. We could do more than that. We could move the clocks in the spring in early February and, again, a bit later at this time of the year if it would not be palatable to have summertime all year round.

It would save quite a lot of money for people and there would be many other benefits as well. Private Members' Bills have been discussed in these Houses and in committees over the years. Europe has said we can do it. I know there are issues with Northern Ireland and the UK but perhaps it is time now, in light of what is happening in Ukraine, to have a serious discussion about this to see whether we can save energy and bring all of the other benefits that have been discussed, looked at and agreed over many years to this issue.

Deputy Frankie Feighan

I convey the apologies of my colleague, the Minister for Justice, Deputy McEntee, who regrets she cannot be here for this matter due to another commitment. On behalf of the Minister, I thank Deputy Stanton for raising this important matter here today and for giving me the opportunity to provide clarity on some issues. The question of deferring or delaying daylight saving time to wintertime is a complex one and one to which the Department of Justice has given careful consideration for some time. Deputy Stanton has always given this careful consideration as well.

Ireland is currently party to an EU-wide arrangement on this issue. In 2019, MEPs voted in favour of forgoing seasonal clock changes. There is, as a result of this vote, an ongoing proposal under discussion within the EU working party on transport for an EU directive to discontinue seasonal clock changes.

The European Commission's proposal would have particular implications for the island of Ireland, especially in the context of the UK's withdrawal from the European Union. The Department of Justice sought to understand the potential impact of the Commission's proposal before reaching a conclusive decision. It is important to be mindful of the long-term consequences that such a change would amount to in people's daily lives. With that, a wide-ranging public survey, stakeholder engagement and a public-opinion poll were conducted in the context of developing Ireland's position on this proposal.

The results of the Department of Justice's detailed consultations demonstrated that abolishing seasonal clock changes could negatively affect the lives of many. It was discovered that the overwhelming majority of respondents would not be in favour of any change that would result in two time zones on the island of Ireland, which would inevitably lead to increased difficulties for business and the general public. It is vital that undue barriers to trade are not erected by changes in policy and this was communicated clearly by the public during the consultation process.

More generally, in the context of the EU proposal, Ireland's position along with that of a number of other member states has reflected concern that the proposal could reduce synchronicity and result in a patchwork of time zones across the EU, thereby causing unnecessary confusion in the Single Market.

Ireland has supported a call for a full impact assessment of this proposal to be carried out prior to any final decisions being made at EU level. We will await the conclusions of such an assessment and further decisions made by the EU Commission before reaching a resolution.

The Deputy makes some very pertinent arguments. The argument would be much stronger if the United Kingdom had not voted for Brexit, but these are problems we face on the island of Ireland. On a positive point, I live in the west of Ireland where we normally have a little more rain than on the east coast but, as the Leas-Cheann Comhairle would understand, we have ten minutes extra in the evening. Sometimes it is a joy to behold and people living on the east and south coasts miss out on it.

Deputy David Stanton

I thank the Minister of State for letting us know he lives on the bright side of Ireland. Long may he continue to enjoy that. I agree with him that the main stumbling block is having two time zones on the island of Ireland. A number of years ago there was a Private Member's Bill in the House of Commons proposing to maintain summertime all year round. It ran out of time but there was much support for it. If time had not run out on it, we might not be discussing this today. It was very close. I believe the Prime Minister of the time was in favour of it as well but it ran into the sand and has not been resurrected since. Other things have taken over.

As I said earlier, the world has changed since last February. Energy security and energy costings are very important. I noticed today the UK is fearful of having blackouts and having gas curtailed. That could impact on us as well. We must do everything we can to avoid that. I remember that in the 1970s the clocks did not change because of a similar energy crisis. The Leas-Cheann Comhairle probably recalls it too as she is likely of the same vintage as me. I remember being in a classroom when the sun was coming up at dawn because we were conserving energy. It worked then and could work now. This certainly deserves debate. I agree with the Minister of State that all of Europe, the UK and Ireland should jump together on this one. We do not want a patchwork of time zones.

I ask that the Minister for Justice go back to Europe and consult colleagues. We live in a different time with respect to energy security, energy supply and energy cost. I mentioned all the other benefits that come from this as well. Now is the time to start talking about it. It too late to change it ahead of the upcoming adjustment at the end of this month, but perhaps in the spring we might be talking and making different points, and people might decide to change earlier rather than moving it forward. I cannot understand why we are so far away from the equinox in springtime either. It should be changed in early February and let us have the summer early.

Deputy Frankie Feighan

I again thank the Deputy for raising the matter. I will bring his concerns and views back to the Minister. As I outlined, it is important any decision made with regard to seasonal clock changes take account of the wider impact these changes would make. The Department of Justice's engagement with the public has shown the people are keenly aware of these impacts.

The Government has introduced a number of targeted measures in budget 2023 to increase energy efficiency, such as increasing the funding to the better energy, warmer homes scheme. This will allow homeowners on low incomes to upgrade the energy efficiency of their homes. The small firms investment in energy efficiency scheme will provide a grant to companies to encourage capital investment in projects to reduce carbon emissions. The €600 energy credit for household and the temporary business energy support scheme will also assist in reducing the impact of the increased cost of energy.

The Department of Justice will continue to engage at EU level on the issue of seasonal clock changes and ensure Ireland's interests are taken into account throughout the decision-making process. The Deputy is right to say we need to conserve energy. His proposal sounds very reasonable to me. If all the countries in Europe, the UK and the island of Ireland were to jump together, we would have a good chance. The war in Ukraine has brought huge challenges. I will not say huge opportunities but there are areas where we can try to conserve energy. It is vital. I am watching the EirGrid dashboard every day. As a politician, one hopes the wind blows as much as possible and that it remains relatively mild, but there are challenging times ahead.

Cuireadh an Dáil ar athló ar 11.35 p.m. go dtí 9.12 a.m., Dé Céadaoin, an 19 Deireadh Fómhair 2022.

The Dáil adjourned at 11.35 p.m. until 9.12 a.m. on Wednesday, 19 October 2022.