Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 29 Mar 2023

Vol. 1036 No. 2

Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

The Sinn Féin Bill before the Dáil is one last chance to stop thousands from losing their homes. Our legislation to extend the eviction ban buys the Government the time needed to use emergency powers to create necessary capacity and safety nets for vulnerable renters. The Bill, based on the Government's own legislation passed last October, will protect those facing eviction and homelessness in the coming weeks. If passed, it would be legally binding on the Oireachtas and would force Government to act. This Bill provides every Member of the Dáil the opportunity to state, through a vote on legislation, where they stand and to vote to protect working families, single people and pensioners from losing their homes, or to vote to evict them into the prospect of homelessness.

At the eleventh hour, the Government puts down an amendment. It does this not to improve outcomes for people but to prevent a straight, substantive and binding vote on a decision that spells disaster for so many. It is a deeply cynical move that demonstrates again that this Government disregards the trauma and devastation facing people from Saturday on. Digging in and refusing to allow a straight, substantive vote on the eviction ban shows that this Government is all over the place, scrambling to defend an indefensible decision. The truth is that this Government has put more energy into ducking this vote than it has into providing a credible answer to the fundamental question, which remains: where are people to go?

Last night, my colleague, Deputy Denise Mitchell, raised the case of a woman in her 70s who faces eviction. Can the Taoiseach fathom the stress this woman is going through, facing homelessness in her golden years? Is this really where we are now? Where is that woman to go? Or the mother of three children facing eviction from the middle of April who is at her wits' end, worrying about how she tells her children that they are out in a matter of weeks: “Pack your toys, your schoolbooks into bin liners. Pack up your memories. We must go.” How on earth do you tell a child that their home is no longer their home?

Can any member of the Government answer this question? Can any Deputy who backs this cruel decision answer this question? I think not. I know they cannot because this is the reality of lifting the eviction ban without having effective measures in place. They have no plan that will make a lick of difference to those who are at risk of losing their homes from 1 April onwards. The clock is ticking down and they are playing with people’s lives.

Is tubaiste uafásach é do na mílte teaghlach atá ag obair, daoine singil agus pinsinéirí deireadh an cosc ar dhíshealbhú. Is é Bille Shinn Féin an t-aon bhealach le stop a chur leis na mílte daoine atá chun a dtithe a chailleadh. Ba cheart don rialtas stop ag obair in éadan an réiteach, athchinneadh a dhéanamh agus an cosc ar dhíshealbhú a shíneadh amach.

I will put it to the Taoiseach one last time before Saturday, before it is too late. Do not lift this vital protection for thousands of renters. Do not escalate a housing and homelessness crisis that is already out of control. Buy the much-needed time to do what is necessary to protect vulnerable renters. I am asking the Taoiseach to keep the ban in place until the end of January.

The Taoiseach

I thank the Deputy. We do not believe that extending the winter eviction moratorium to December, or January, or April, or whatever the Deputy’s policy is this week, is a solution. We think it will just make homelessness worse, but at a later point. The solution is a different one: it is more social housing, it is the tenant in situ scheme, it is more supply, it is tax changes to encourage small landlords to stay in the market and new ones to come in, and it is also funding homelessness prevention services, and that is what we are going to do.

I absolutely appreciate there are a lot of people who are very worried at the moment, people who have received a notice to quit in the past couple of months. They are fearful, they are worried and, in many cases, they are experiencing real anxiety, and I understand that. What I do not appreciate is the Deputy exploiting those fears, adding to them and seeking to amplify them. That is wrong. The answer to the Deputy's question for the vast majority of people who have a notice to quit served on them is that they will find a new tenancy, perhaps with the help of the Government, a local authority or a voluntary body.

As I said earlier in the Dáil, 50,000 new tenancies were created last year. I know Deputy Ó Broin accused me of misleading the House earlier in that regard so, since then, I have checked the facts. According to the Residential Tenancies Board, 52,000 new tenancies were created over the last four quarters, that is, Q4 2021 to Q3 2022.

I will now read from the Q3 RTB index report so everyone is clear on this. It states:

Annual tenancy registration came into effect on 4th April 2022 and requires landlords to register their tenancy every year, within one month of the anniversary of when that tenancy began. As the purpose of the Rent Index is to measure developments in the prices faced by those taking up new tenancies only, it therefore at present does not include annual tenancy registrations or existing tenancies. However, given the systematic change of data collection activities with the commencement of annual registrations, prior to beginning the usual Rent Index methodology, the Q3 2022 dataset was subject to additional checks to attempt to ensure the continuity of the underlying data and that they relate to new market registrations only.

Once again, Deputy Ó Broin gets his facts wrong and no level of confidence or chutzpah can cover that up.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I know for sure that lifting the eviction ban means the prospect of homelessness for thousands of people, and the Taoiseach knows that too. I know too their fears, their worry, their anxiety, and I know that amplifying that fact, amplifying that experience, is not in the least bit exploitative. As a matter of fact, those who face the prospect of homelessness in a matter of days expect us to come to the Dáil, expect us to amplify and to express that experience, expect us to fight the Taoiseach tooth and nail and not to give up in our bid to have him change his mind.

The Taoiseach said - I have to say, in a very trite manner again - that there is nothing really to worry about here: “Sure, they will get new tenancies”; “Sure, they will be all right.”

The Taoiseach

I did not say that.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

That is simply not true. Have we not spent the last weeks and months, and has the Taoiseach not spent them, lamenting the fact that we are losing landlords, that we are losing capacity in the private rental sector? I ask the Taoiseach to answer this question again, and this time to try to answer it straight: where will people go? My appeal has fallen on deaf ears, it seems. We will have a vote this evening. I hope the rest of us on these benches have heard those amplified stories of hardship and fear, and we will do the right thing, even if Government will not.

The Taoiseach

I thank the Deputy. I think I have answered that question four or five times now, both this week and last. The only thing the Deputy’s ears are deaf to is the answer because she just does not want to hear it. She has renewed her call to me - fair enough. Let me renew my call to her. There are three ways in which the Sinn Féin Party can help us to alleviate this terrible housing crisis.

Sinn Féin members can stop opposing new housing in their constituencies. They can take the pressure off first-time buyers by ending their opposition to the help-to-buy and first home schemes. They can stop threatening landlords with more restrictions and more taxes. Those are the three things Sinn Féin can do to help us with this monumental task of ending the housing crisis.

Deputy Matt Carthy

People are going to be homeless next week. Where are they going to go?

The Taoiseach

I again ask all Sinn Féin Deputies, Senators and councillors to please do so.

Deputy Brian Stanley

The Taoiseach is misleading the Dáil.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Could the Taoiseach stop forcing people into homelessness? That is more in his line.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

I want to raise today the report of the independent review group into the Defence Forces but I might wait until the exodus has ended.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

Could the clock be stopped?

Deputy Ivana Bacik

The independent review group report into the Defence Forces makes for shocking reading. It details really serious issues around a toxic culture that pertains in the Defence Forces. The report of the group chaired by Ms Justice Bronagh O'Hanlon makes findings over 50 pages and, on almost each of them, we see evidence of the abuse of members of our Defence Forces in Army barracks, on Naval Service boats, on overseas tours and elsewhere in the line of duty. Some of the shocking findings merit reading into the record of the House today. The report states:

The types of bullying described ranged from behaviour leading to suicides (often characterised as ‘accidental deaths’) to serious physical assaults, very serious sexual assaults (including rapes), and the sexual targeting of new entrants

It also states that "interviewees described their experience of their training as literal torture and said that some members of their class took their own lives." These are appalling findings. Both men and women have been affected and the findings relate to us that these issues and this culture endure to the present day. This is a culture we are told is gendered. Even though both men and women are affected, it is heavily gendered. We are told this culture at best "barely tolerates women" and that, at worst, it abuses women in its ranks. This is shocking to read. Everyone should have the right to go to work and carry out his or her duties free from harassment and violence and yet we see in the report that women members of the Defence Forces were advised to keep two locks on their bedroom doors to ward off those seeking to assault them as they slept. Some interviewees reported having to barricade sleeping quarters to prevent assault. They reported being groomed or spiked with alcohol or drugs. This is a horrific environment and all of us will want to send our thoughts and sympathies to all of those affected because it is hard to conceive of the terror these individuals must have experienced at work, realising that there was no institutional support, that they were unprotected and that people within the institution who made complaints were punished for doing so, with perpetrators moved on to work elsewhere.

I pay tribute to the Women of Honour. The experiences they detailed have now been vindicated by this report. They showed great courage in speaking with RTÉ's Katie Hannon, to whom I pay tribute for her work in keeping this issue on the agenda. I am glad the Taoiseach has accepted the need for a statutory inquiry and I welcome that. However, will he give us a timeline for the establishment of that inquiry? It must be up and running before the Oireachtas rises for the summer at the latest to ensure we see speedy and timely work on the recommendations of the report. Furthermore, the Women of Honour must be involved. It is crucial that we see their engagement with the statutory inquiry. Can we be sure this sort of culture does not prevail in other State institutions? I am thinking of An Garda Síochána and of politics. We need to make sure we are not tolerating or enabling the continuation of these sorts of toxic workplace cultures.

The Taoiseach

I thank Deputy Bacik for raising this important issue, which is being discussed across the country today. The report of the independent review group is shocking. It will shock anyone who reads it. Issues with bullying and harassment in the Defence Forces, some of a sexual nature, have been reported on before but never so starkly. It is clear that attempts made to change things - and attempts have been made - have failed. Unlike many other issues we have dealt with in this House, this is not historic. It is ongoing and appears to be wide scale. I join with Deputy Bacik in paying tribute to the Women of Honour, the men and women of honour, Katie Hannon of RTÉ, Senator Clonan and many others who have shone a light on all of this. I also record my thanks to Ms Justice O'Hanlon and her team for their thorough and timely work.

The Defence Forces have been entrusted with the defence of our State since its foundation. The Irish women and men of the Defence Forces are loyal to the flag and to the uniform and are willing to defend the State and bring peace to remote corners of the world. They deserve our support and respect and they have it but they also need to respect each other, particularly women, young people and those at a lower rank than themselves. The vast majority of our soldiers, sailors and airmen and airwomen have not engaged in these awful practices. There should be no stain on their character or reputation. The same applies to the tens of thousands of veterans and former servicepeople.

Nonetheless, in this report, we read of bullying, discrimination, harassment and sexual harassment, including sexual violence. We read that, when victims sought help under the internal complaints system, they were left disappointed and were often penalised. Many good soldiers left as a result. We see an organisation that is in critical need of fundamental and immediate cultural and behavioural change that goes to the very heart of issues relating to dignity, mutual respect and duty of care. The Government will bring about the change necessary to ensure the dignity and integrity of women and men in our Defence Forces is safeguarded at all times. The House has my assurance, that of the Tánaiste and that of the Government that we will prioritise this issue. As Deputy Bacik correctly said, we have agreed to a judge-led statutory inquiry as to how complaints and interpersonal issues, including sexual misconduct, were handled. We are keen to have that up and running as soon as possible but it is important to get it right and to have the engagement of the Women of Honour and the men and women of honour, serving and former personnel of the Defence Forces. It is important that we get it right and that we get the format right. There are a number of different options in that regard. The Tánaiste is very keen to engage with stakeholders before drawing up the terms of reference and putting them before the House.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

I thank the Taoiseach for the response and I echo his words of commendation for the immense work of, and the bravery shown by, members of the Defence Forces, who are renowned worldwide for their commitment to peacekeeping and for the immense service they have given on missions overseas for many years. However, I also acknowledge that, as the Taoiseach has said, the findings of this report make for alarming reading and disclose an ongoing and wide scale problem with the culture within the Defence Forces. I note the Taoiseach's comments about his Government's intention to work swiftly on this matter and to engage with stakeholders. That is crucially important but the time after the publication of a report like this is crucial and sensitive treatment is required. We are all conscious that, for those affected, reading the report and hearing public debate on it now that it has been published is very difficult and potentially very traumatic. I have represented some survivors of mother and baby homes and institutional abuse and they have told me how they found themselves traumatised again when the report was published, even though much of it vindicated what they had said and their experiences. It is therefore very important that neither the Government nor any of us traumatise these people again and that we move swiftly, although steadily, as the Taoiseach has said, to ensure that an appropriate response is given and that the terms of reference for this inquiry meet the needs of survivors. I again ask for clarity on a timeline and on the sequencing of the steps to be taken by Government to protect survivors.

The Taoiseach

There are a number of recommendations in the report, 13 in total, and we have accepted them all. There are some we can implement very quickly. For example, we can enact legislation to amend the Defence Act 1954 to provide a legislative basis to enable allegations of any type of sexual assault in the Defence Forces to be referred to An Garda Síochána rather than the internal military police. That is among the things I believe everyone agrees on and we can do that very quickly. It is the same for the commissioning of a non-statutory inquiry into the process of medical boarding and a further study of deaths by suicide among current and former members of the Defence Forces over the past 20 years. It is important that we do that. Previous studies have shown that the suicide rate was similar to that for others in the same age group but, quite frankly, we need to look at that again and we will do so.

With regard to a public inquiry, there will be a public inquiry led by a judge or retired judge. I do not want to put a timeline on it because, as the Deputy has pointed out, it is just as important that we get it right. We need to act with speed but also with sensitivity. The Tánaiste and the Government are keen to have it up and running before the summer recess but I do not want to make that commitment today only to find out that it is more complicated than we thought.

Crucial to this is the engagement, full co-operation and confidence of Women of Honour, men and women of honour and others. We need to engage with them before agreeing a timeline.

Deputy Michael Lowry

Last December I stood in this House to plead on behalf of a family whose seven-year-old son, Danny, was terminally ill. They wanted to bring Danny home from hospital to spend his final days with them and his young brothers. This was also Danny’s wish, following prolonged hospital stays. Imagine the anguish and helplessness they felt when they learned that bringing their precious boy home was not possible, that their child’s last wish was being denied because paediatric palliative care services are not available in the south-east region where they live. There was a public outcry.

Meanwhile, there was frenzied activity within the HSE in the region. The spotlight was on it and there was no escaping its glare. It had to act. This ultimately resulted in a full palliative home care package being put in place for the family. This would not have happened for this distraught family had it not been raised in this House.

Danny did come home. He came home just a week before he left this world. At that time, I categorically stated that the trauma inflicted on this family could never be allowed to happen again. Just four months later, it has happened again. In fact, two families are reaching out for help at this time. One family has been forced to publicly highlight their plight in an effort to get paediatric palliative care for their four-year-old daughter. The mother of a terminally ill 11-year-old girl in Tipperary has contacted me regarding her fear that she will not be able to take care of her beautiful daughter in the familiarity of her own home. She is distraught at the prospect of not having her daughter at home for her final hours in the company of her family and friends.

Families have no alternative other than to broadcast their heartache in order to get the support they need. They are forced to spend precious time battling for a service they are entitled to receive. Families should not have to resort to politicians or the media at such a painful and difficult time. It is gut-wrenching to think that the health system allows such failure.

Absolutely nothing has changed in the south-east region with regard to paediatric palliative care. How has this situation been allowed to continue? Why is the south-east region, which comprises south Tipperary, Kilkenny, Waterford and Wexford, the only area of the country where paediatric palliative care does not exist? The region has an excellent palliative care service for adults, but the needs of terminally ill children and their families are completely overlooked. Something is seriously amiss in the region and it must be addressed.

I would like straight answers to the questions we have posed. Can the Taoiseach give a commitment on behalf of Government that the situation will be rectified for the people of south Tipperary and the south east? I ask him to outline a timeframe in which this will happen.

The Taoiseach

I thank the Deputy for raising this important and sensitive issue. In Ireland in the round, we have really good palliative care provided by some really top-class professionals. End-of-life care has improved considerably down the years, including our hospices, hospice home care and paediatric palliative care, particularly with the State funding of the LauraLynn hospice, which I was involved in trying to make happen when I was Minister for Health. It is really important that people should be allowed to die with dignity. It makes such a difference for them to be able to spend their last couple of weeks in a hospice or better still at home receiving the hospice care they need. It makes a huge difference to families. It provides enormous peace of mind both in terms of the experience when somebody passes on but also thereafter. This is particularly acute for the parents of children who are terminally ill. I cannot imagine what it is like to go through the experience of losing a child long before their time.

There is something wrong here. I am not sure what it is and I will take an interest in it. I have read about the case in Wexford; I think Fiadh is her name. It is wrong and very sad that anyone should feel that they have to go public or explain very private and personal circumstances regarding the death of a child in that way to get the package they should have got sooner.

I do not think the problem relates to political will by anyone in this House. I do not think the problem is with money because thankfully we are in a position where the Government has money and a budget surplus. The issue may relate to the inability to get staff. I really do not know what the problem is, but it is a problem and I acknowledge it. I am aware of another case that I am trying to deal with at the moment in the Wicklow area, so it may not be just in the south east. Certainly, the political will is there to fix it. I guarantee that the money is there. I will convene a meeting in the Department of the Taoiseach, involving the Minister for Health and HSE to get a proper overview of paediatric palliative care services, find out what the problem is and then we will fix it.

Deputy Michael Lowry

I thank the Taoiseach for his commitment and personal interest in the matter. The Minister of State, Deputy Butler, has been very active on the issue. I do not know where the blockage is, but it appears to be between the consultants and the nursing profession. There is no joined-up thinking on this and it needs to happen. Families living in the south east have been without this service since 2017. I cannot be precise as to how many children and families have suffered as many have done so in silence.

Despite her personal grief, Danny’s mother, Lisa, has maintained her campaign to ensure that paediatric palliative care is available to everybody and that no one has the same experience as that family has had.

The Taoiseach mentioned the girl from Wexford and I am familiar with that case. I have also had contact from the mother of Róisín an 11-year-old girl in Tipperary town. They are in similar circumstances. This cannot be put on the long finger and needs to be dealt with as a matter of urgency.

In a letter sent just one week ago, which I followed up on, Róisín's mother outlined her anxiety, fear and trepidation at the fact that something desperate could unfortunately happen shortly and she is not in a position to cope with it. I ask for that case to be dealt with urgently.

The Taoiseach

Regarding palliative care provision in south Tipperary and the south east, I am told there are two clinical nurse co-ordinators for children with life-limiting conditions in the south east. They support the provision of safe care in the home. They are working to ensure a care plan based on patient need is in place in each case. However, there is something amiss here. We need a sustainable long-term solution for the provision of paediatric palliative care services in south east. I am told that is under development and that a multi-agency approach will be adopted. As a Deputy has very correctly and articulately pointed out, some things may be able to wait, but this is not the kind of thing that can wait. I am keen to convene that meeting as soon as I can in the Department of the Taoiseach to find out what the problem really is and fix it as soon as we can.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

I am glad to get the opportunity to speak. As the Taoiseach knows, I travel nearly every road in Kerry on a consistent basis. One of the roads I travel very often is the road from Kenmare, through Kilgarvan, down to Clonkeen then Flesk and into Killarney. Without going along the road, I can count in my head that there are 55 vacant houses from the top of the town in Kenmare down to the Kerry Way in the Curraglass townland. That is hardly going up or down any of the byroads off that - a short walking distance maybe. There is a certain amount of public transport on this road.

Why are these houses vacant? Can we do anything? We must explore every avenue we can when we hear about the housing crisis and people ending up without a home. Surely we should be doing more to entice the owners of these houses into the rental market. We certainly know that the tax at 52% or 56% is keeping many of them out of that market.

Owners in this area will not command large rents. They will only get €600 or €700 a month. After paying tax, they only have €300 to pay the bills.

Confidence is gone in the private rental market and people are afraid that they will lose their houses and be unable to get them back when they want them. They have the right to get their houses back. Will the Government do something to relax the rules of the Residential Tenancies Board, RTB, which are too stringent and restrictive and prevent people from entering the market?

Will the Government also do something for those who are without a home, cannot find a house to rent and are not on the housing list? We must help people who are on the housing list, but those who are not on it need a house as much as everyone else. They cannot afford to buy but are just above the threshold to join the housing list. Could we involve local authorities in renting houses? Perhaps they could succeed. People are afraid they will not get their houses back if they go private.

The Government was able to offer €800 tax free to house owners who accommodated Ukrainians. Why can we not offer the same sum to accommodate our own people? Surely our own people are first and foremost. The Ukrainians are not to blame for the misfortune that has befallen them, but our people must be looked after. This is one of the areas I am asking the Government to explore.

The Taoiseach

Thanks very much, Deputy. There are a lot of vacant homes around the country. The Deputy sees them on his travels - I see them on my travels as well - around the country. That is particularly the case in more rural areas like south Kerry. Our colleague, Deputy Griffin, has documented this and photographed it. He has done a whole dossier on it, which he has shared with me. Deputy Healy-Rae is essentially making the same point.

The number of homes that are habitable is relatively low, but they do exist. Regarding the habitable ones, the ones that are liveable, the vacant property tax will apply from this year. For those that are not habitable, are derelict and need a bit of work before someone can live in them, we now have the Croí Cónaithe fund. We have just announced that it will be extended, not just for people who will do up the building and live in it but also for people who will do up the building and rent it out. It is hoped that will make a big difference over the next couple of months or at least the next year or so.

There is a fund for local authorities to make compulsory purchase orders, CPOs, in respect of derelict properties and bring them back into use. Some local authorities are better at doing that than others, but the fund exists. There is also the repair and lease scheme, with which the Deputy will be familiar. We are calling on local authorities in particular to take a lead on this. Some local authorities like Waterford are particularly good. Others are not so good. Every local authority has funding for a full-time derelict homes officer whose job is essentially to lead this. Some big counties like Cork and maybe counties like Kerry where there are a lot of derelict properties may need more than one derelict homes officer and it might be a job for more than one person. We are setting up a section within the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage dedicated to the whole issue of vacancy and vacant homes.

We are going to examine the question of how we tax small landlords. We have committed to that. We are going to get that work done as soon as we can with a view to making changes in the next budget.

It is the case that people receive €800 tax free to accommodate Ukrainians in, for example, holiday homes, but they are not permitted to charge any more than that. That must be borne in mind. There is a tax relief - it is €800 tax free - but people cannot charge more than €800. It is important to bear that in mind in the discussion. Actually, they cannot charge anything.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

Regarding the €800, if the local authority rented the property from the house owner and the tenant was able to, he or she should pay according to his or her means and circumstances. I object in the strongest way to the Government's proposal that houses should be compulsorily purchased. Instead, the Government should talk to the owners and try to find out whether they would be interested or, if they had a problem, try to deal with it. The Government should certainly not go down the road of CPOs because it will turn every landowner and house owner against it. That is what owners were afraid was happening in the Dáil today. If they are banned from getting their houses back, it would be the same as an extension of going down the CPO route, which I do not want.

There is much that we can do together, that being, to explore why these houses are vacant. There are vacant houses up all the other roads around Rathmore, Scartaglin, Gneeveguilla, Brosna and Knocknagoshel. There should be no one homeless. For people who came to this country fleeing the war, we were able to help them with transport and so on. The same could be organised as well.

An Ceann Comhairle

I thank the Deputy. We are over time.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

We need to do more because the State will never be able to build enough new houses.

An Ceann Comhairle

We are way over time, Deputy.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

It is a plus and a big bonus and start that we have these houses.

The Taoiseach

I do not think that a CPO should ever be the first option, but it should be an option that we have if people refuse to sell or bring a property into use and sit on a derelict property for years. That is why we have the fund to do that. Some local authorities have led the way on that. Others have been far too slow.

The whole issue of vacant properties is a very interesting one. The Government published a really good vacant homes strategy not too long ago. It points out there are roughly 160,000 vacant properties - vacant homes - in the State, but as is always the case, it is much more complicated when you dig into it. A huge number of those homes - in fact, the vast majority of them - are either for sale or to let, being renovated, the people who owned them died recently, the people who own them are in hospital or nursing homes, or the people who own them cannot be traced. That takes the 160,000 figure down to actually a much smaller number, but there are still thousands of homes that are vacant that could be brought back into use. I have set out the measures we are taking to make that happen.