There are a good number of speakers, but we should be able to accommodate everybody. If I have to ask Members to drop a minute of speaking time, I will do so. I call the Chair of the committee, Deputy Jennifer Whitmore.
Final Report of the Joint Committee on International Surrogacy: Motion [Private Members]
I move:
That Dáil Éireann shall take note of the Report of the Joint Committee on International Surrogacy entitled "Final Report of the Joint Committee on International Surrogacy", copies of which were laid before Dáil Éireann on 6th July, 2022.
Before I start, I would like to extend the warmest of welcomes to everybody in the Visitors Gallery, namely, Irish Families Through Surrogacy, Irish Gay Dads, Equality for Children, LGBT Ireland and their families and friends. I know they have a lot of support here today. I would particularly like to mention Scarlett Seery Kearney, who was one of the key advocates on this issue. I welcome everybody.
I am very proud to introduce this report from the Joint Committee on International Surrogacy. It remains an immense point of pride for me that I got the opportunity to chair this important committee and that we have produced this robust and well-considered report. I want to start my contribution by thanking my fellow members from both the Seanad and the Dáil, from Opposition and from Government, for their work on this committee. We all worked together very well and strove at all times to maintain a respectful debate in the committee, while discussing issues which are, by their very nature, emotionally charged. As members, we have been compassionate, fair and evidence-based on the issue of international surrogacy, having particular regard to the rights, interests and welfare of children born through surrogacy, both into the future and existing children, those of surrogates and of intending parents.
The pathways to parenthood are evolving, with assisted human reproduction becoming a more complex and fast-moving area of healthcare. Ireland must keep pace with this evolution and implement changes when necessary. However, to date Ireland has been a laggard in this area which has resulted in a legal lacuna that has had a significant impact on children and families across Ireland and which presents risks to those on their surrogacy journey.
The Assisted Human Reproduction Bill 2022 is currently going through the Houses. This provides Ireland with an opportunity to bridge the gap in our laws which has long been a cause of concern for international human rights bodies and the Irish Supreme Court. The Bill provides for domestic surrogacy. Countries such as the UK and New Zealand are currently reviewing their long-existing laws on international surrogacy so this debate is more timely than ever. The topic of international surrogacy is complex and sometimes divisive, with issues regarding the safeguarding of surrogates and children being a key concern. I want to acknowledge these concerns and I hope this report provides a framework from which a robust system can be implemented. It was indicated by many of the stakeholders that while the Assisted Human Reproduction Bill provides for domestic surrogacy, intended parents will still seek international surrogacy as a pathway to parenthood and that the non-regulation of this area could see children, surrogates and intended parents left exposed. It will also see families left in a legal limbo and we have seen many instances of that happening, with workarounds their only option for obtaining any parenting rights. While considering all parties, it is the children born through international surrogacy who must remain at the forefront of any framework implemented and we must ensure that no child is treated differently based on circumstances of his or her birth. Unfortunately, that is currently not the case in Ireland.
The committee met over a number of months last year and engaged extensively with academics, legal experts, and stakeholders from various national and international organisations. We were incredibly privileged to have the opportunity to engage with children, families and surrogates themselves who have lived experience of the surrogacy journey. I met many families from Wicklow who told me their stories of struggle and their happiness when surrogacy worked for them. There was significant agreement among all witnesses that the biggest risk to the welfare and rights of children, surrogates and intended parents currently is the lack of regulation by the State. On behalf of the committee, I want to sincerely thank all of the witnesses who assisted us in this important work. We were all heartened to see the Government take on board the committee's recommendations and announce its plans to incorporate them into the Assisted Human Reproduction Bill which is currently going through the Dáil. This will provide Ireland with an opportunity to bridge the gaps in our laws which have long been a cause for concern. It is my hope that Ireland can take a lead in this very important global issue by tackling this complex yet important area, providing a timely and robust framework that will protect all those involved. I also want to thank the staff of the Oireachtas, particularly Ms Fiona Cashin and Mr. Seamus Kennedy, and the committee's secretariat and legal advisers because without their help and assistance, this report would not be as robust and strong as it is.
I do not have time to go through all 32 of the committee's recommendations. Interested Members can read them in detail in the final report. However, I would like to highlight some of the key recommendations. It is important to note that the report not only looked at surrogacy arrangements into the future, but also at the situation currently for children already in Ireland who were born through surrogacy and the impact on them. Fundamentally, the key recommendations are that where an international surrogacy arrangement meets the criteria set out in the guidelines recommended by this committee, the intended parents should be able to apply to the courts for a parental order in respect of both parents and this must be carried out in an expeditious process. That last point is key. It must be quick and easy. The parental order should name the intended parents and child born through international surrogacy and should declare the intended parents to be the parents of the child, equal in rights to the child, regardless of biological connections and that the order creates an entitlement to all rights and an obligation to all duties prescribed by the State, or otherwise, for the parents and child in relation to each other. I have been describing and explaining to people what this issue is about. When I tell them that there are children in this State who have no legal connection to their parents, that there are mothers or second parents in this State who have no legal connection to their children, they can immediately see the unfairness in that. This is something that we need to keep at the forefront of our thinking on this.
The parental order shall name the surrogate, declaring the severance of any parental relationship with the child, removing all parental duties and responsibilities from her prescribed by statute or otherwise. It came across very clearly at the committee that surrogates do not want to have a formal, legal relationship with children. That was not their intention and the current situation whereby that legal connection is still in place is not what anybody wants.
One of the issues we also discussed was how to protect surrogates and ensure that the surrogacy framework is ethically sound. Intended parents in international surrogacy arrangements should be obliged to provide evidence that the necessary requirements are met in order for a parental order to be issued. No surrogacy arrangement should be entered into in a country which prohibits surrogacy. The surrogate should receive independent legal advice, as should the intended parents. The committee stepped through every single scenario and came up with a practical, workable solution for every one of them.
On the retrospective issue, in cases where international surrogacy arrangements have taken place before the introduction of legislation regulating them, intended parents should be able to apply for parental orders. This application process should be less onerous than the process for future surrogacy arrangements. It is really important that we do not hold parents to a high bar when that bar was not in place when they first went through their surrogacy journey.
The willingness of families, lobby groups, advocacy groups and individuals to share their stories and lived experiences was essential to the work of the committee. That is how we managed to come out with 32 very strong recommendations. Their voices shed a whole new light on the issue for many on the committee. For me, and for many on the committee, this was a huge learning exercise. Any preconceived ideas I had going into this committee were very quickly shaken once I heard the evidence and the lived stories.
Parents who have children through surrogacy face challenges that other parents simply do not face. If one is a parent in a couple who is not biologically identified as connected to his or her child, one faces real challenges. This could mean that, as a parent, one cannot get medical care for one's child. It could mean that if one is in a domestic abuse situation, one cannot leave the home because if one does, one must leave one's child behind because one has no connection with that child. It means that if a parent is sick, he or she is worried about what will happen to the child if something happens. These are the real, lived experiences of families, children and parents in this State at the moment and it is important that we move very quickly to rectify and remedy those issues.
In the run up to today's debate a number of individuals and advocacy groups, some of whom are in the Public Gallery, have raised some issues of concern with me and I seek clarity on them from the Government. We have had a period when there has been no information and because of that vacuum, concerns have been raised. These concerns relate to the operation of the proposal, what will be included in the Bill, what limitations will be placed on things like countries, reasonable costs and compensation processes, as well as the speed with which retrospective parenting rights will be applied. It is really important to clarify these matters. The Minister met the groups earlier today and it is really important that consultation and discussion is kept open and that there is a continuous engagement with the people who will be most impacted by this. It is their voices that the Minister needs to hear as we move forward to the next stage.
In December, when the Minister met with these groups and told them that the Government was taking on board the recommendations of the committee, there was huge joy among all of those parents.
There was joy and relief because they felt that finally it was going to happen for them. However, there is also fear because they feel that they are so close, but they have been close before. What we need now is for this to move into the next stage.
We need to move from the recommendations to the Government taking them on board, getting them into legislation and getting that done quickly. People need clarity and certainty. Children and parents need their rights respected.
I have two main asks of the Ministers. Will they please provide clarity on exactly what recommendations from the committee's report will be taken on board and the extent to which they will be applied? When can all this happen for people? Probably the key issue is when this will happen for people. For those families who are starting on their surrogacy journey, will this be in place for them? Will they know that their children will be legally recognised? They are my main asks.
I am pleased that both the Minister for Health, Deputy Donnelly, and the Minister for Justice, Deputy Harris, are here today. I am thankful for the support they have shown to this process and to the families in the Chamber. At this stage, because so much work has been done, the report and the recommendations are robust. It is not the first report that has happened. I acknowledge Conor O'Mahony because he also provided and developed an extensive report. They all say much the same thing. We have that groundwork done. Now what we need is the political will to move it. I hope in their response today that the Ministers will indicate that political will is there and that the process will be moved along quickly in order that we can fill that legal loophole that is there and exists for people.
The next slot is shared by the Minister for Health, Deputy Donnelly, and the Minister for Justice, Deputy Harris. They are sharing 15 minutes.
There are two more Wicklow Deputies to speak. I warmly welcome the opportunity to discuss the upcoming surrogacy legislation following the work of the Special Oireachtas Joint Committee on International Surrogacy. I acknowledge the enormous efforts over many years of many advocates and the surrogacy groups, some of whom are with us today in the Visitors Gallery. They are all very welcome.
It has been my great honour and pleasure to meet with parents and their beautiful children as well as many others who want nothing more than to have children of their own. I have listened carefully to their stories of their journeys to parenthood, the struggles, the costs, the heartache, the hope and in many cases the unbridled joy of becoming parents to their wonderful children. To these parents I say they must have full recognition and rights, under the law, as the parents of their children. Their children deserve, must have and will have, the full protections of parental recognition and associated rights. That is what our new legislation does. The legislation we are finalising provides a full retrospective route for parents and for their children. This is what we are finalising to bring to the Joint Committee on Health. This is what will be available via the courts when this legislation is passed later this year.
I have instructed my officials to ensure that retrospective parental orders do not require the establishment of the new authority, which will take some time. They are engaging with the Attorney General to do everything possible to make sure the legislation is drafted to that effect.
To those looking to become parents, this legislation will in the first instance regulate and advance assisted human reproduction services. In parallel with the legislation we are rolling out an entirely new national network of fertility hubs, new assisted human reproduction services and implementing, later this year, for the first time State funding for in vitro fertilisation, IVF. The legislation will also regulate domestic as well as international surrogacy, which of course is the main focus of today’s discussion.
We can all agree that the undertaking of surrogacy arrangements in other jurisdictions raises complex practical issues to be addressed. To consider these, the Government agreed to establish the special committee in February last year. The members put in long hours and the result of their efforts was a balanced, thoughtful and important piece of work. I take this opportunity to thank the members of the committee for their work and to thank the Chair of the committee, Deputy Whitmore, for her work in particular.
The committee published its final report in July, which includes a total of 32 recommendations. An extensive piece of work was then carried out by the three line Departments in respect of this. Ultimately, last December the recommendation to Government from myself, the Minister for Justice, Deputy McEntee, and the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, Deputy O’Gorman, was to accept, either fully or partially, 30 of the report’s 32 recommendations. The rationale for not including the other two recommendations stems from additional protections we wanted in place for the surrogate and intending parents, in regard to ensuring court hearings can be scheduled and secondly ensuring all who are children eligible for parental orders get the benefits of these orders in a reasonable period of time. I have met with the representative groups to discuss the amendments, and discuss the vast majority of the recommendations which we are taking on, those we are not and the rationale for that. I am happy to say there was broad agreement as to the approach that has been adopted.
I also acknowledge additional issues have been raised with me, including concerns raised by LGBT Ireland, Irish Families Through Surrogacy, other individuals and other groups. To them I say that I have listened very carefully to what they said. We discussed the concerns with officials and these are being addressed to the greatest extent possible through the final stages of the drafting process.
It is worth noting that legislation as complex as this can take a long time, sometimes several years, to work its way through the system. Indeed I am bringing legislation through final stages at the moment that my Wicklow colleague, the Minister for Justice, Deputy Harris, started many years previously. That legislation was not as complex as that which we are dealing with here. The Government wanted to make sure that this did not become a multiyear process following the committee's report. To that end I wrote to the Attorney General before Christmas to request the prioritisation of the formal drafting process. I am happy to be able to report to the House that legislative drafting that might at times have taken years is instead being done in a matter of months. I must acknowledge the huge efforts being made by officials in all three line Departments and the efforts being made by drafters and by legal advisers in the Attorney General’s office to make sure this happens.
As of this morning officials were on version eight of the legislative amendments. The version I have with me is 7C. That will give a sense of just how much work is going into making sure that this legislation is right. I am confident that when published, the amendments will reflect the proposals put forward by the committee in so far as it is possible to do.
In regard to timing, which is one of the questions Deputy Whitmore raised and that many of the groups we met in the past hour raised as well, it is my intention that this work will be finalised, that we will seek and hopefully secure Government agreement on the final Bill and on the surrogacy amendments and that I will send all of that to the Joint Committee on Health for consideration, for scheduling for Committee Stage, during this Dáil term, during the summer term, before the Dáil rises in mid-July.
The scheduling of Committee Stage which will most likely involve substantial proposed amendments - there may be Opposition amendments and I am certainly bringing in amendments - is ultimately a matter for the Oireachtas. There are amendments to 11 parts of the Bill and 134 pages of legislation as it currently stands. In effect we are bringing in amendments that are of the scale and complexity of a full Bill in and of themselves. It is up to the Joint Committee on Health to decide when it is going to schedule Committee Stage. Nonetheless, it is my hope that the Joint Committee on Health will be able to find time in what is a very busy schedule for it in order that we can have the committee hearings, I can bring it back to the Dáil for Report and Final Stages, I can bring it through the Seanad, and we can get this passed through all stages of the Oireachtas and to the President during this Dáil term.
We cannot guarantee that because there are many moving parts and many different groups involved, so it is not in my gift to guarantee it. It is the absolute determination of me, the Minister, Deputy Harris, the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman and of Government that we do so and I think there is broad political support across both Houses for this. We are determined to have this with the President by the time the Houses rise after the summer term.
I am not aware of any other country that has attempted to provide such a bespoke and comprehensive legislative solution, including the incorporation of a pre-conception approval model, to issues arising from its own citizens engaging in surrogacy arrangements in other jurisdictions. In much of the rest of Europe and further afield, legislators, academics and others are looking with keen interest at us right now, at what we are planning and at what our legislation will do. This is an area we are pioneering. In the UK, the law commission last month published recommendations for reforming surrogacy laws in a report that took five years. I imagine that legislation will take some time.
Our finalised new surrogacy amendments will be significantly expanded from and much more detailed than both the broad recommendations in the committee report and the proposals approved by Government before Christmas, as we turn this into the final legislation. I very much looking forward to passing this legislation, both for the original elements concerning assisted human reproduction and the new elements concerning international surrogacy. I finish by again recognising the work of the committee, of advocates and of officials in getting us to this place. These parents and these children deserve full parental recognition. That is exactly what we are going to do.
I welcome the opportunity to speak on this important topic. I am pleased to join colleagues in contributing to this important debate. I get a real sense of our reaching an important milestone on a long and winding road. I thank all the Members involved in the excellent work of the joint committee and especially my constituency colleague, Deputy Whitmore, for chairing it. This place often comes in for criticism, but that committee work is an example of this place at its best and I wanted to acknowledge that this evening.
I am particularly pleased to see so many friends and familiar faces joining us in the Gallery this evening. They are people I had the opportunity of meeting during a long journey in my time as Minister for Health and ever since. On a cross-party basis, and most importantly together with parents, we have worked together to reach this critical point. When I first met a number of the people in the Gallery this evening, we were working to commence all Parts of the Children and Family Relationships Act. We did that, but what became clear as we did so was it was not going to be enough. If we wanted to get to an Ireland where every child was equal, every parent was equal and every family was equal, there was a need to do much more and go much further. We took the decision together to appoint Professor Conor O'Mahony, who was then the Special Rapporteur for Children. He did an excellent piece of work that has been acknowledged in the House this evening. It laid the foundations the committee built on and helped it tease through the issues and get us to this point.
We have come so far. I am aware that as parents and prospective parents, people feel tantalisingly close to getting to where we need to get to. We now need to finish the journey. We need to act and we will. We have all the research we need and more than enough reports. It is time to get on with it, and what people very clearly heard from my colleague, the Minister for Health, is his absolute commitment, which I echo, to do everything humanly and physically possible to get this legislation passed as an absolute matter of urgency.
On some aspects of particular relevance to the Department of Justice, I am aware the citizenship rights of children born through international surrogacy are an issue of concern to intending parents. The intention is the AHR Bill will include amendments to the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 1956. These amendments will make clear provision for citizenship of children born through surrogacy to Irish citizens as intending parents where parental orders under the AHR Bill have been granted by the Irish courts. The new provisions will be very welcome in making real progress in this as well. On guardianship of children born as a result of surrogacy both domestic and international, the intention is also that the AHR Bill will bring forward amendments to the Guardianship of Infants Act 1964 in respect of the guardianship of children born through surrogacy both before and after an application is made to the court for a parental order. Provision will be made to enable the intending parents to be appointed as the child's guardians alongside the surrogate mother for the period when the child is living with the intending parents before the court has dealt with an application for a parental order. Provision will also be made for the guardianship of children born as a result of the surrogacy agreement following the granting of a parental order by the courts.
I hope it is clear the Government, the Opposition, the Dáil, the Seanad - that this Oireachtas - is beyond determined to step up to support people and finish the job. I pay particular tribute to my colleague and friend, Senator Seery Kearney, who has championed this cause from the beginning. Sometimes it can make a real difference when somebody with lived experience gets into this place. I commend the Senator on all her work with so many other colleagues. I assure her I will continue, along with colleagues, to walk every step of the way with her. I am proud of how far we come, but I feel a sense this evening of a resolve to finish the job. Let us do it for children, for parents, for families and to take another step towards a more equal Ireland.
It is great to see all the Wicklow Ministers here. We must pay tribute to our Chair, Deputy Whitmore, who worked so well with us all. The joint committee was about all of us working together as a group. It did not matter what parties we were members of. I too particularly mention Senator Seery Kearney who has worked on this and, as previous speakers said, has gone through this herself. It is important to give her a mention.
Today is about the families and the advocacy groups that have long called for a legal framework. Well done to all of them. It has been a long road, but I believe we are not too far off. It was an honour for me and the for the rest of the committee to meet the families, children and witnesses. We heard stories of love and of the hardship some families had gone through. We heard what changes we can make in this legislation. Today is about those families. It is great to see so many people here. When we first set up the committee, we did not know whether it fell within the remit of the Department of Health or the Department of Justice. We were trying to figure it out, but thank God we got there.
The Minister, Deputy Donnelly, spoke about timing and it is crucial here. I am aware there will have to be some final detail in the provisions of the Bill and that there will be challenges with that. However, the main thing is there is no confusion, barriers or excessive legal costs for all involved. We must ensure there is access for all couples. This is what we need to do. All of us working together can deliver on that. I was delighted too that the Minister, Deputy Donnelly, said he will address the concerns around amendments on Committee Stage. That is good. Today is a really important day. As Deputy Whitmore said, it is great to be here today. We know we can do our best by every person, every surrogate, every family and every advocacy group that spoke to us. We were listening and we will work on their behalf.
It is great to have three Ministers present for this important debate. I served as the Vice Chair of the joint committee. I thank our Chair, Deputy Whitmore, all our members, witnesses, the clerks and officials and the legal experts who guided us through the process. We were given just three months to look at this issue, and that was because of the urgency of it. The question we are left with is where has that urgency gone. It was great to hear the Minister, Deputy Donnelly, talk about July, because it was last July our committee published that report. I can clearly remember that day because many of the people who are with us in the Gallery were on the plinth and there was many a tear shed. It was a day of pure, raw emotion.
It is a day I will always remember because it was the moment I saw exactly how much the work of our committee meant to people’s lives. For them this was going to change things but here we are nine months later, and for them nothing has changed.
Many of them are in the Gallery and their incredible advocate, campaigner and champion, Senator Seery Kearney, who had her daughter, Scarlett, through surrogacy, is in the Chamber. They are here with us because they are so enthused to hear the update and to hear about the commitment of this Government to deliver for them. These families have been through so much. For many of them, the road to surrogacy has been paved with false starts, heartache and tragedy. Some are same-sex couples, some are couples who have been through a fertility journey and some have recovered from illness. The one thing they all share is that their families have been denied basic rights by our State.
The time for action is now and it is welcome to hear the Minister's commitment for that action before July. That is the ask of Irish Families Through Surrogacy, it is the clear recommendation of our committee and it is also the advice of the High Court. We know the legislation is coming but the difficulty is with the interpretation of our report, specifically when it comes to prospective and retrospective surrogacy. I ask the Minister to engage with us and the committee members and to ask us about our views because in many of our views, that interpretation seems to be quite conservative and narrow. We need to get this right. I can best summarise the 32 recommendations contained in that report in two lines. First, international surrogacy needs to be recognised and regularised. Second, mothers and non-biological fathers need to have basic rights when it comes to their children.
If, when it comes to same-sex couples, the Department sets out legislation that amounts to prohibition by stealth, that would serve to undermine our work as a committee, it would effectively be rejecting many of our recommendations and it would undermine Ireland's spirit of inclusivity. That is the same spirit of inclusivity that underpinned the marriage equality referendum. Families in the Gallery and in communities like mine should not have to wait until the assisted human reproduction authority is established to get their due recognition and basic rights as parents. That can be done through family law applications and it can be done now, and it should not have to be done in the High Court either. This has to happen quickly, and not just because of the day-to-day and unnecessary hoops people are jumping through when it comes to things like school permission slips or medical appointments. It has to be done urgently because we know how dangerous and devastating the fallout can be in situations of family separation or tragedy.
Families like the ones we see in the Gallery have waited long enough; they need action. Couples considering surrogacy need clarity and that is our ask of the Minister.
I welcome the opportunity to speak on this important debate. I want to begin, as other have, by welcoming our visitors in the Gallery and all of those who have worked for so long to see a properly regulatory framework in place. This includes organisations like Irish Families Through Surrogacy, Equality for Children, LGBT Ireland and Irish Gay Dads. I also want to thank all the individuals from civil society, academia and legal practice who have worked on this. I am thinking of Professor Conor O'Mahony, Annette Hickey, Maeve Delargy, Claire O'Connell and others.
I want to particularly commend the Chair of the surrogacy committee, Deputy Whitmore, and her Vice-Chair, Deputy Higgins, and the committee for producing such a clear, thoughtful and sensitively written report in such a tight timeframe. I was appointed Chair of the Joint Committee on Gender Equality, and we thought we had a tight timeframe of nine months to consider the recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly on Gender Equality until we heard that Deputy Whitmore's committee was being given three months. I want to commend the surrogacy committee on producing this report in such a timely fashion and on the urgency it brought to bear on this.
I am glad, on behalf of the Labour Party, to support the recommendations. I will highlight a number of issues that have been brought to my attention. I know the Minister, Deputy Stephen Donnelly, and the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, have been engaging with groups and individuals on these issues. The Labour Party has a strong track record of pushing forward necessary legislative reforms to regulate child and family relationships and to ensure diverse family forms are recognised. There is a cross-party consensus on this.
I will speak briefly about the work of the Joint Committee on Gender Equality. Our committee recommended in December that a referendum should be held to ensure that the Constitution is amended, not just to delete sexist language about women and mothers, but also to insert a gender-neutral recognition of the value of care and, crucially, to recognise more diverse forms of family beyond the family based on marriage. I am glad the Government has committed to holding that referendum in November and that is clearly of huge relevance when we debate child and family relationships legislation because we need to ensure that our Constitution recognises diverse family forms too, which is important.
As a member of the Joint Committee on Justice, I was actively involved in a previous debate on the regulation of surrogacy in the lead-up to the passage of the Child and Family Relationships Act 2015, which was originally intended to include regulation on AHR and surrogacy. We did not get to do that because there was an urgency about passing the legislation prior to the marriage equality referendum taking place, but I am conscious of how complex this area is to regulate because it was something we could not do then. None of us on that committee foresaw that it would take nearly ten years before we would come to finally see legislation brought forward and there has been such terrible uncertainty for so many families, some of whom are in the Gallery, during that period.
There is a real urgency, particularly in respect of the retrospective declarations that need to be made. That is recognised and I welcome the fact that the Minister, Deputy Stephen Donnelly, as I understand it, has confirmed that the retrospective declarations process can proceed before the framework for prospective declarations is fully in place. That is certainly-----
We are awaiting final advice from the Attorney General. That is what I am trying to get.
Indications have been given and that is welcome. Parents and families I have spoken to are anxious to see that proceed and to see the issue of judicial discretion built into that such that judges will have some discretion, which is important. The report recognises that the case of retrospective parentage declarations is separate and needs a separate and different approach to be taken.
I refer to the prospective regulatory framework that is to be established through this. I entirely appreciate the need to bring these provisions forward through the existing AHR Bill. It is heartening to hear the Minister indicating that he is hoping to do this before the summer recess. It is welcome to hear that but it is important that we get this right. As I said, parents have raised a number of concerns with me, particularly around which other countries will be included in the arrangements and which countries it will be possible to have arrangements with. There is clearly a need for a broad international framework and I am thinking, as we do with the adoption procedures and the Geneva Convention, that countries should abide by the Verona principles. I know the matter of which other countries will be included is of concern, as is the matter of reasonable expenses. I know the committee grappled with this and I read with great interest what it said about the payment issue. Clearly this is a difficult issue and we grappled with this ten years ago as well. What does "reasonable expenses" envisage? Does it envisage expenses beyond just altruistic expenses? What happens when an agency is involved? There will be a lot of concerns about what detail will be there.
This is a complex area and so it is important that the balancing exercise is done right. We are all conscious - and again it is well set out in the report - of the risk of exploitation. I mention the language and I am glad to see that the report interrogates this and "surrogate" is the term used because that is the term that was preferred by witnesses. We are conscious that we do not tend to hear from surrogate mothers as much; that has been the nature of it and the language around that can be difficult. The key thing is to ensure there is regard not only for the rights of children born through surrogacy, but also for the rights of intending parents and families of children born through surrogacy and for the rights of surrogates and surrogate mothers. It is crucial, therefore, to ensure there are safeguards against the risk of exploitation, particularly relating to countries that are less developed or developing countries. That is built into the considerations in the report. I am glad to see that because it is important. There are strong recommendations around the protection of the bodily autonomy of the surrogate, which is to be welcomed by us all.
There is going to be a great deal more time to debate the detail of this. I very much welcome the careful timeline the Minister has provided. I want to ask about the question of paid surrogacy leave, which has been raised. It is referred to in the report. We have put down parliamentary questions about it. We have had quite a number of people come to us wondering when it will be in place. That will have to be part of any regulatory framework. I will finish by commending all of those involved in producing this delicate and really careful report on what is a difficult and sensitive area to regulate. I welcome it because, ultimately, this is a very joyful endeavour. It is an endeavour to ensure that we are going to see proper legal frameworks for the welcoming of children and diverse family forms in our society. That is very welcome.
I remind people that the time shown on the countdown clock is for everybody. We have Deputies Funchion, Martin Browne, Farrell and Costello to go.
I am absolutely delighted to get the chance to speak on this. I welcome all of the advocates and remind them that today is one of their days and that we are here because of them and because of the work they do. There should be no mistake about that. We are here because of the pressure they, as parents, put on in standing up for their children and because of the help of Senator Seery Kearney, who has guided us all and continues to do so. She is my go-to person whenever I have a question on surrogacy. I note that there is a strong Kilkenny contingent here to balance out the Wicklow group.
I really welcome this report. In the seven years I have been a Deputy, this is one of the key things I have been involved in. It is one of the really good things. This is why we get involved in politics. We want to see legislation change to a positive end. We have such an opportunity here now. There are 32 excellent recommendations. If there are question marks over anything, we have a recommendation to answer the question. The Minister said that he is accepting or partially accepting 30 of the 32. I would like to know which two are not being accepted and which ones are being partially accepted. I appreciate the Minister might not be able to answer that today. For any of the question marks over compensation or reasonable expenses, we have a recommendation. Recommendation 13 deals with that issue. It is the same for retrospection. As the Minister will know because I raised it with him only last week, that is a key issue and we need to see movement on it fast. In fairness, last week, the Minister confirmed that was his intention and that he did not want to see people having to wait for an agency. Again, I mention Brian and Kathy Egan. Brian is with us today. They really have done us a great service by telling their story, as have all of the parents. Their situation was particularly difficult, however.
There are some concerns regarding the countries to be involved. Everybody involved with this wants to see the highest standards. All of the parents and everybody sitting up in the Gallery want to see the highest standards. That is why we are all here. We would like a common-sense approach and for this to be looked at in a way that is not too restrictive with regard to the countries, reasonable expenses and the courts system for retrospection. If it has to be the High Court that is involved, can we create a system whereby the payment is different or in which there is an avenue that does not involve payment? Could it be the District Court or the Circuit Court? Can we look at that? Being open-minded and listening to the experts, the stakeholders and parents is what has brought us this far and we need to continue to do that.
I also pay tribute to Deputy Whitmore. She was a fantastic Chair. She had a really difficult task. For 12 weeks, she kept us all in line. She listened to everybody's views and was incredibly fair. We owe her a great debt of gratitude. I know other people want to speak so I will not take up too much time. It is great that we are having this debate and that so many Ministers have attended but we will continue to raise this issue and to lobby the Joint Committee on Health for a slot to ensure this passes. It is great that there is such cross-party support. It does not always happen that there is such cross-party support, so we need to grab this and take it forward.
I also acknowledge the people in the Gallery and wish them all the best. I also acknowledge Deputy Whitmore, chair of the committee, and all of the members of the Joint Committee on International Surrogacy who compiled this report. I recognise the great lengths they went to. A total of 11 public meetings were held to examine issues arising from international surrogacy and to make the 32 recommendations to deal with those matters. Like everybody else, I hope the Minister will accept all 32 recommendations because we support them and we support the people above in the Gallery.
One of the comments made towards the beginning of the report is crucial as a basis for this system to work. It states, "Evidence received suggests that failing to recognise international surrogacy arrangements will not limit their occurrence even if domestic surrogacy is allowed" and "that the biggest risk to the welfare and rights of children, surrogates and intended parents currently is the lack of regulation by the State". If we are looking at the fundamental matters that form the basis of the committee's recommendations, this must be among those at the top of the list.
The report specifically outlines how failing to acknowledge and regulate for international surrogacy would leave families in legal limbo and would discriminate against children on the sole basis of the manner of their conception. It is essential, therefore, that key requirements for international surrogacy arrangements be drawn up to facilitate the issuing of a parental order. This would define and safeguard the rights and represent the interests of all parties involved. A failure to adequately acknowledge and regulate for international surrogacy would be for the State to fail children, whose rights in this regard must be the main priority.
Without proper arrangements and regulation in this regard, there would be impacts on issues such as the transfer of parentage and protections for the child and these could be open to negative consequences arising from uncertainty. With this in mind, I refer to the committee's deliberations on the issue of the transfer of parentage. As befits a committee with such a serious matter to consider, members looked at whether a parental order should be issued before or after birth. The committee has since recommended a two-step process involving an administrative process before birth involving the submission of evidence to the assisted human reproductive regulatory authority and a post-birth element wherein a court hearing would be required to consider the issue and how a parental order would best protect the rights and welfare of all parties. Legal certainty safeguards against potential trafficking were considered. However people may interpret certain matters within the process, we can agree that the committee has endeavoured to the best of its ability to engage with interested and affected parties. It has analysed the matter in great detail. I understand that the Minister accepts that new legislation on surrogacy must be drafted and make its way through the Houses ahead of the summer recess. I assure the Minister that he will get help from our side. I urge him to ensure that provisions for retrospection progress speedily because there are families for whom urgency is the key issue and that must be addressed.
I take this opportunity to commend the membership of the committee, particularly the chair, Deputy Whitmore, and the vice chair, Deputy Higgins, on the great deal of positive work it conducted. I say to the Minister that he has a great deal of goodwill in the room. He must accept that. While it will be difficult, it is good to hear that the Minister's own target is for the appropriate Bill to be completed by the summer recess. I am sure the members of the public who are present to witness this discussion will appreciate it. Like Deputy Bacik, I served on the Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality a number of years ago when this matter arose. It is probably because of the sheer volume of legislation we were working through back then, in 2013 or 2014, that resulted in the matter not really getting any further. It would be remiss of me not to mention Senator Seery Kearney, my neighbour across the corridor here in Leinster House. Young Scarlett is a regular visitor. It always brightens my day to see her. I saw her earlier. I am very conscious of what other Members have said about the Senator's contribution to the debate.
As I have mentioned, I commend the committee for the very significant work it has done. At the heart of this report is a more compassionate and nuanced approach to families that rely on surrogacy. The implementation of 30 of the 32 recommendations contained within the report, which is impressive, will have a really positive impact. As all contributors thus far have said, this is a timely report. In tandem with the Health (Assisted Human Reproduction) Bill 2022 currently working its way through the Oireachtas, it will provide for both domestic surrogacy, as has been achieved in other jurisdictions, and the assisted human reproduction regulatory authority, which represents a pivotal step in providing adequate support and oversight in the area of surrogacy.
My time is very limited. I would like to allow all Members to have their say, but I will mention some things I am pleased to see both the committee and the Minister mention. These include support for families and the regulation of the entire area to ensure that there is certainty for all of those concerned and that the process is not overly burdensome, complex or bureaucratic, which can be a barrier in and of itself.
To deal with other jurisdictions, in particular those which do not have legislation in this area, as Deputy Bacik quite rightly pointed out there is also the overlay with the Geneva Convention and other provisions where we should try to note the willingness of other jurisdictions to work with us. Unfortunately, the number of families cannot be catered for in Ireland and therefore we will undoubtedly continue to look abroad. Written agreements between countries is something to which I hope we can aspire.
Finally, I take the opportunity to commend the advocacy of so many people. A number of constituents have contacted me over the past number of years, not nearly as many as are in the Visitors Gallery, and I have no doubt the committee members were inundated with queries because it is such an emotional and important issue. I am very fortunate to be a father of two fantastic children and as any parent would be, I am passionate about them. When you are doing so in a complex scenario such as surrogacy, I know it can be incredibly burdensome. That is why I want to take the opportunity again to commend the committee members for the great deal of dedication they put into this process and to repeat the point I made about the goodwill in the room.
I will try to speak quickly and leave as much time as I can and hopefully I will not leave anything out of my own speech.
Georgina Roberts was one of our witnesses at the committee and was herself born through surrogacy. She said that the best way to make children secure in their identity as surrogate born people is to make their parents secure in their identity as parents. That really throws it down to us in this House to provide that certainty and security. Members will have heard many people saying today that there is a sense of urgency because there is still that uncertainty and there is still a great insecurity. That really puts a responsibility on us to provide that security. It is great that we are having this debate now in order to keep driving this issue forward. We can keep feet to the fire and keep the pressure on the Minister, the Attorney General, the drafter, or on whoever it needs to be to get this done as quickly as possible.
Like others, I thank the Chair who herded the cats, got us all together, kept us going and kept us moving. Throughout the work of the committee, we all sought to protect the rights and welfare of children, surrogates and intending parents. It is very important that the legislation continues to do that going forward as well. We need to be cognisant of the role of the courts in protecting everyday citizens' rights in all circumstances. The paramountcy principle, which is the idea that the welfare of the child should always be paramount, is a well-established part of family law jurisprudence and should certainly be reflected in this Bill. To enable that, we need to ensure there is proper judicial discretion; that we trust the judges and our courts to protect the rights of children, intending parents and surrogates; that we do not bind their hands or are overly deterministic; and we allow the courts to do the work we give them.
Again, there is an important element here when we are looking at retrospective recognition. Something that is absolutely essential is that we provide the legal recognition for those bonds of love and family relationship that have already been built and are already very real. We need to recognise them and that process needs to be as easy and as straightforward as possible. We need to be looking at what court is appropriate to do that. The District Court is certainly the court with the most judges and the most accessible route. The Circuit Court registrars are certainly a lot more accessible to the average person than those in the High Court. We need to ensure the retrospective route is as seamless and as accessible as possible. We need to look at which court we do that in and it should be as low as possible in terms of our courts.
I am very conscious of time so I will leave it there. There is a great responsibility on us in this House to provide that certainty and security as quickly as possible.
In the limited time I have available, I commend Deputy Whitmore and the Joint Committee on International Surrogacy. Just in case people think this is politicians backslapping each other, it is also important to point out that last month, Mr. Justice Hogan of the Supreme Court referred to the joint committee's report on international surrogacy as a thoughtful and reflective parliamentary report. Therefore it is not just members of the legislature who think it is a good piece of work; people looking at it objectively also share that view.
Referring to the Supreme Court, we cannot forget that back in 2013, the Supreme Court was very critical of the Oireachtas for its failure to legislate. It noted that surrogacy at that stage was lawful but not regulated. It is pretty embarrassing to be a Member of the Oireachtas given that ten years later we have still not enacted legislation dealing with it. I commend the Minister for Health, Deputy Donnelly, for bringing forward this legislation. This is the absolute type of issue that requires legislation. Currently, what happens is that individuals enter into surrogacy agreements abroad, the children come home, and then they have to make applications in the District Court under the Guardianship of Infants Act 1964, or seek to get some recognition another way for the non-biological parent. It is just unfair that we ask parents to go through that process. Clearly, legislation is required urgently and if the Minister gets it through, he will be commended because many have promised before. We expect him to, and believe that he will deliver.
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak on this important topic. Myself, the Minster for Health, Deputy Donnelly, the Minster for Justice, Deputy Harris, and the Minister, Deputy McEntee, have all engaged directly with and have received correspondence from families affected by surrogacy. One cannot help but be moved by their stories but also by their desire to be recognised by the State as the parents of their children. Developing legislative proposals to amend the Health (Assisted Human Reproduction) Bill 2022 as recommended by the Joint Committee on International Surrogacy is the right thing to do. As legislators, it is equally important that we achieve this in the right way. This means considering and protecting the rights of all parties involved in the surrogacy arrangement.
Surrogacy has been and continues to be a complex legal and policy area both in Ireland and internationally. Surrogacy and assisted human reproduction crosses a number of policy remits across Departments and State agencies. Indeed, my fellow Ministers and I have witnessed first-hand the strong collaborative cross-departmental approach taken by our respective officials in developing policy and progressing legislative amendments in this area. The focus of my Department and our role in the development of this legislation is on ensuring the rights of the child are central to any policy or legislative proposals. In particular, given the work my Department has done on the Birth Information and Tracing Act 2022, we are conscious that the children born today will have questions about their origins and the circumstances of their births at a time in the future. We encourage all parties to consider not only these children's rights in the best interests of children today, but also how those children will feel when they grow up and look back as adults upon the circumstances of their births. When a child grows up and looks back on his or her birth, he or she will want to see that the rights of the surrogate are also protected in the process and to be sure that every part of the process was conducted fairly, openly and with appropriate safeguards at every step for all parties.
We recognise that Ireland today is a society where non-traditional family formations, including surrogacy, exist. The reality of the family unit is that it is evolving. Embracing the diverse ways in which families are formed and the ways in which they are visible, has made our country a better and more inclusive place to live. I am very proud to be working alongside my colleagues in this House on this legislation. I know the complexity of the issue is recognised across the House. I compliment the committee and its Chair for their work in bringing forward this really important report. I will continue in my Department to work with our colleagues in the Department of Health and in the Department of Justice to implement the recommendations of the report and provide those key legal rights for parents.
Before the Chair of the Joint Committee of International Surrogacy, Deputy Whitmore, makes her closing remarks, I will contribute briefly to the debate. First, I thank Deputy Whitmore for her fine work in chairing the committee and also the Vice-Chair of the committee, Deputy Higgins, and all the members. I give a special mention to Senator Mary Seery-Kearney for her work, her openness and her lived experience. It is so important that we listen. I also welcome all the families present and thank them for their lived experience, their advocacy and their journeys. As Minister of State with responsibility for mental health, I am acutely conscious of the emotional distress and the challenges they all went through as they travelled their own journeys.
Questions were asked and there will be ample time on Committee Stage, and subsequent Stages, of the Health (Assisted Human Reproduction) Bill 2022 to go into detail on the specific provisions contained within it. On a broader level, it is clear the vast majority of the committee's recommendations have been taken on board and this will be reflected in the amended Bill. Specifically, the legislation will provide for a pre-conceptual approval model and the payment of reasonable expenses only to surrogates, and both these proposals will be in line with what is proposed in the final report. It will also provide a pathway to full parental recognition for the second parent in past surrogacy arrangements. I understand that this is the crucial new part of the Bill for most of the people in the Public Gallery and their families, as well as many others across the country and who may be watching now.
On behalf of the Ministers for Health, Justice, Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, the Minister without Portfolio, Deputy Helen McEntee, and myself, I again thank the Chair and members of the joint committee for their work. They have made a significant contribution to the development of what will prove to be internationally-trailblazing legislation. The Deputy is quite right that it is great to see such consensus in the room, such a warm feeling here and to know that children and their parents all over the country are on this final pathway to being recognised.
I thank the Minister and the Minister of State for their contributions. It is so welcome to hear such strong statements of support for the recommendations and for the families. It is also extremely important. Many families will leave here this evening heartened by what they have heard, particularly concerning the commitments made by the Minister for Health to get this legislation through the Houses as quickly as possible. Speaking on behalf of my party, which I think others will echo as well, we will work with the Government to get this done as quickly as possible.
It is not often we have a discussion on surrogacy without hearing from Senator Mary Seery Kearney, so I have had a text from her. She would just like to say that in these Houses we speak about changes we are making and we work together to make and influence change. We rarely have people present immediately who are affected by the subject matter we discuss and it has been an extraordinary experience for her to be part of the joint committee, knowing and understanding the reservations members may have had. The journey undertaken by the joint committee was one that destigmatised families through surrogacy and gave honour and respect to them as families, parents and children. Recognition of these legal entitlements by the State is very important recognition of the rights of these families and will afford them the constitutional protections of a family. Senator Seery Kearney passes on her thanks to all the members of the joint committee for the work it has done. It is crucially important to have heard from her because she has been such a huge part of this undertaking and so influential on this issue. Indeed, when I first found out I was chairing the joint committee, I spoke to her. She eased my worries, because I was quite worried at the start regarding what the committee process would mean and how complex and divisive it could be.
Actually, what I found instead was the complete opposite. Once we were given the evidence and heard the stories, we knew what the right thing to do was. It is important to remember this aspect. What happened while the joint committee was sitting, what has happened since then and what has happened here this evening is the perfect illustration of how politics should be. This is what politics should be. We should have instances where people who have been failed by the State, for whatever reason, go to politicians, express their concern and tell us how they have been impacted, and then we take that information on board, listen to what has been said and to other experts, and then come to a decision on how can we rectify the issue. It is great that we can have this debate. As has been said, there is such enormous goodwill here for this process and the recommendations. I look forward to the day when we are in this Chamber and the Bill is finally passed. We will then finally be able to give all those families in the Public Gallery the certainty and clarity they need that they have sought for so long and that they deserve. This is exceptionally important.
I also thank all the departmental officials, because I know this has been a huge volume of work for them to undertake. I pass my thanks and regards on to all of them. I also thank the Vice Chair of the joint committee, Deputy Funchion. Indeed, I thank everyone very much.
Question put and agreed to.
Cuireadh an Dáil ar athló ar 6.05 p.m. go dtí 2 p.m., Dé Céadaoin, an 3 Bealtaine 2023.
The Dáil adjourned at 6.05 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Wednesday, 3 May 2023.