Pa Daly
Question:1. Deputy Pa Daly asked the Minister for Justice the measures he is taking to remediate the current prison overcrowding crisis. [24679/23]
Ceisteanna ar Sonraíodh Uain Dóibh - Priority Questions
Prison Service
Can the Minister for Justice to outline the measures he is taking to remediate the current prison overcrowding crisis? The depth of the crisis was indicated to me recently when I spoke to a Garda regarding the proposed increased sentences for assaults. His response was quite cynical, in that he asked where we were going to put those who are convicted. In his experience, a lot of people are getting temporary release, the prisons are full and that it is almost pointless to increase sentences.
The first thing I want to say in regard to the change in the law to protect peace officers and provide maximum sentences is that everybody in the House, including the Deputy, shares the view that it is important that we put legislation in place to send out a very clear message and solidarity from this, the people's House, with those on the front line that it simply will not be tolerated if anybody tries to attack or assault a member of An Garda Síochána or ram their vehicle or attack any other emergency worker. I know we are united in that overall view.
Regarding the broader point on prison overcrowding, I assure Deputy Daly that we are committed to building stronger and safer communities. To do that we need to progress policies aimed at reducing offending, diverting people away from the criminal justice system and, where appropriate, providing effective rehabilitation. My colleague, Minister of State, Deputy James Browne, is leading a lot of good work in the Department on that. We are focused on rehabilitation and reducing offending.
Alongside that, we need to continue to invest in the prison estate and ensure it is modern and fit-for-purpose. We need to ensure it has capacity. Sometimes people talk about it as though it is either-or; it is not. We need penal reform, but we also need to expand prison capacity. Pressure on the system has increased because our population has grown and is continuing to grow. Increasing judicial resources and Garda numbers will also have an impact on the prison system.
It is also the case that Covid impacted on the operation of our criminal justice system. We are still dealing with the fallout of the pandemic as the system tries to return to some degree of normality.
As the Deputy will be aware, a number of prison projects have been completed in recent years, adding to the capacity in men's and women's prisons in Limerick and the training centre in Mountjoy. In addition, I recently received Government approval to try to progress four short-term capital projects, one in Castlerea, one in Cloverhill, one in the midlands and one in Mountjoy Prison. Together, these projects will deliver a minimum of 620 additional spaces. I am now engaging with the Minute for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, with view to progressing an agreed schedule of capital bills. Our revised Irish Prison Service capital strategy will also be finalised this year.
The situation in the female prison in Limerick is unsustainable. According to recent statistics, it is currently at 179% capacity. Overcrowding in the male and female prisons in Mountjoy means occupancy of 106% and 113%, respectively. That does not take into account the 87 prisoners currently on temporary release.
A a few weeks ago the open prisons in Shelton Abbey and Loughan House were still more than 90% full. The crisis has been well flagged by bodies such as the Irish Penal Reform Trust, IPRT, and the Prison Officers' Association. Prison overcrowding undermines the health and safety of prison staff and prisoners, making it difficult to run prisons effectively and options for moving more dangerous prisoners become restricted. During the pandemic, as the Minister said, there were some sensible and innovative approaches taken to reducing the numbers and we need to look at those. They include restorative justice, community sanctions, community return and other options, especially for short committals, which the governors of the prisons tell us make no difference whatsoever to the lives of prisoners.
I think we both agreed on the issue of people with short sentences and how we can try to help them be diverted from prisons in the first place. With my other hat is on as Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, I am delighted that this week the Government agreed to establish a new prison education task force which will be jointly chaired by me and the Minister of State, Deputy Browne, between now and the end of the year. It is an important step to see what we can do to help people when they get out of prison not to reoffend, reduce recidivism rates and try to stop the children of prisoners ending up in prison. People are six or seven times more likely to end up in prison if their parents have been there.
I have spoken to the Prison Officers' Association and addressed its annual conference. I have visited Shelton Abbey, Cloverhill, Wheatfield and Limerick Prison. We have opened the new male part of Limerick prison. The Deputy is correct that the situation in the women's prison in Limerick is not acceptable. There is a new build there. A new woman's prison will make a very big difference and will increase capacity by 22 additional spaces. I can confirm to the Deputy that it is now expected to open in July. Between the training unit in Mountjoy, the male and female accommodation in Limerick, there will be in excess of 200 new spaces. I have also brought forward a plan to provide another 620 places across the four projects I mentioned.
I welcome some of the Minister's proposals, including a prison education task force. The problem will always be in the implementation of these plans, which sound great. I spoke recently to a former prison governor who outlined the difficulties in engaging with longer term prisoners and assessing them for re-engagement with their communities. The promises contained in previous plans were not being met.
One prison in the State had two Merchant's Quay counsellors for 900 prisoners. In order to break what the Minister referred to as a cycle of imprisonment, which is often intergenerational, people have to do some sort of education and training programmes. It is simply impossible to assess a prisoner by how he or she has engaged with services such as education and training without the services being in place. The door of the cell is locked and prisoners are doing no other activities except for walking the yard. That means we are failing prisoners, families, their children and the communities they live in.
I fundamentally agree with the Deputy that there should never be a scenario where, for example, a school, workshop or training centre in a prison cannot open and people are instead sent out to a yard. That is a recipe for a variety of challenges, including challenges for prison officers as well as trying to break the cycle that we collectively want to break.
I have spoken to the director general of the Irish Prison Service. One of the first things we will examine in the new prison education task force, which will hold its first meeting in Mountjoy next Wednesday, will be how we can make sure that we properly resource but also structure schools and training centres. The Government recently published the health needs assessments for the prison population joint project between the Departments of Justice and Health and the Irish Prison Service. It outlines how we can begin to tackle some of those issues in terms of the health needs of prisoners.
I fundamentally believe that we have to look at this from both angles. We have to look at this from the point of view of penal reform and how we can reduce recidivism. We also need to recognise that as the population grows we need to expand capacity in prison. We have to do both of those things at the same time.
An Garda Síochána
Gino Kenny
Question:2. Deputy Gino Kenny asked the Minister for Justice if he will report on any discussion he has had with senior Garda authorities on the policing of anti-asylum seeker-refugee demonstrations and if he will make a statement on the matter. [25462/23]
My question relates to the Minister's discussions with senior gardaí on the policing of anti-asylum seeker and anti-refugee demonstrations across the State. Many of us are concerned about what has manifested in the State and the situations in which police find themselves.
I thank Deputy Kenny for raising the question. I very much appreciate the fact that he referenced the challenging situation gardaí can find themselves in. I want to take this opportunity to thank members of An Garda Síochána. There have been well over 125 anti-immigration protests in the city alone. Gardaí have been working in very challenging environments and I want to thank them for that.
I would like to condemn in the strongest possible way any incident or threat of violence against vulnerable people in our society. The burning of tents belonging to refugees in Dublin city centre recently was utterly unacceptable, reprehensible and vile. It will be fully investigated by members of An Garda Síochána. A live investigation is under way.
I have met the Garda Commissioner to discuss this incident. I meet him on a regular basis to discuss this issue and I am confident that a policing plan is in place. The Commissioner has assured me that he has what he terms "operational integrity" and the resources to police this situation. Of course, the Garda Commissioner is responsible for operational policing matters. I have been assured that the policing approach to protests is predicated on a number of principles, namely, keeping people safe, preventing any antisocial or criminal behaviour and traffic management, where appropriate.
While people of course have the right to protest and that right must be respected, nobody has a right to do that in a way that causes others to fear for their safety or threatens public order. If and when that line between protesting and threatening or intimidating behaviour is crossed, there are a number of provisions in our laws that apply.
We are also strengthening our legislation in this area with our Criminal Justice (Public Order) (Amendment) Bill, which we hope to enact later this year. The Bill will repeal the prohibition of incitement to hatred and replace it with new offences of "incitement to violence or hatred". It will also provide for specific hate crime offences for the first time in Irish law.
The message should be clear from this House to anybody who engages in threatening behaviour, that such behaviour can constitute an offence. The offence can have serious consequences. A number of people have been arrested and are being prosecuted. One's right to protest will be respected, but one has no right to break the law. If one endeavours to break the law, one will be met with its full rigours.
Some lines have been crossed at some of the demonstrations. There is no doubt about that. It is unequivocal. Outside agitators are trying to sow fears and play on people's fears and hatred. Some of these are outside agitators who have an agenda, that is, to stoke fear and so forth. It is a testament to the Irish people that we have welcomed the vast majority of people to this country. There has been a considerable influx of people from different parts of the world and, largely, Irish people have welcomed people from different countries. We know the feelings of being rejected and then welcomed. It is part of our DNA to welcome people, but there are those who want to stoke the worst in people and they have an agenda. I fear the rhetoric they use, especially on social media, is going unchecked.
I agree with the Deputy that he is entirely correct and the security assessment entirely tallies with his view that it is a statement of fact that there are a number of small, right-wing, far-right actors who move from community to community to stoke fear and division and, on occasion, engage in criminal activity. We should not overstate the number, nor should we tolerate their actions. There is a line between protest and the other side of that line, and they are often on the wrong side of that line. There are a number of active Garda investigations under way, which I will not comment on for obvious reasons, but I will take the opportunity to set out the laws that exist in this area. There are clear laws and clear offences if one crosses the line. Under the Non-Fatal Offences against the Person Act, it is an offence to make someone believe he or she is likely to be assaulted. It also is an offence to threaten someone with serious harm and beset someone in a way that interferes with that person's peace and privacy or causes him or her alarm or distress. Under our public order legislation, offensive behaviour is criminalised in a public place, as is engaging in threatening, abusive or insulting behaviour in a public place. It is also an offence to distribute or display in a public place, any material which is threatening, abusive, insulting or obscene and it is an offence to fail to comply with the direction of a member of An Garda Síochána. The laws are clear and will be enforced.
We understand the police find themselves in difficult situations, but there are also question marks over where those lines have been blurred at demonstrations. Remember these demonstrations are outside where people live. Some of the policing has to be questioned. It is very light touch in comparison to what the Debenhams workers went through two years ago. There is a stark contrast in how the gardaí dealt with them and how the people who are stoking up the worst fears imaginable. The gardaí find themselves in a difficult situation in which outside forces are trying to whip up fear, hatred and division. They grow in that cesspool. It has to be acknowledged that these people have to be taken out of society.
I absolutely believe in democratic oversight and oversight structures with regard to An Garda Síochána and our justice system - of course, I do. However, I am also conscious that when we talk about this subject in the House, we are talking about pieces of information we see. An Garda Síochána has a helicopter view of information and of intelligence and in terms of its assessment of the security situation and the individual judgment of the garda when he or she is on the front line of what can often be, as the Deputy has been kind enough to acknowledge, a very challenging situation. I am satisfied An Garda Síochána takes the threat of the far right in Ireland extraordinarily seriously. I am confident there are policing plans in place. The Government and I are in regular and ongoing engagement with An Garda Síochána to ensure a regular flow of information. The flow of information, providing for policing input and advance notification of where accommodation centres will be established in order that An Garda Síochána can be prepared with to a policing plan is important. I am also satisfied - this is true - there have been arrests and prosecutions. I expect that as a result of a number of other live investigations, there will be further arrests and prosecutions.
Legal Aid
Pa Daly
Question:3. Deputy Pa Daly asked the Minister for Justice his views on the current civil legal aid review; the plans, if any, he has in relation to the criminal legal aid sector; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [24680/23]
I ask the Minister of Justice his view on the current civil legal aid review and about any plans he has for the criminal legal aid sector and if he will make a statement on the matter. I should declare I was on the legal aid panel for many years.
As I am sure the Deputy will be aware, criminal legal aid and civil legal aid are separate services. Criminal legal aid is granted by the courts to eligible persons being prosecuted for criminal offences to ensure that their constitutional right to a fair trial is vindicated. Civil matters concern non-criminal disputes between individuals or organisations. Civil legal aid and advice for qualifying individuals is granted through the civil legal aid scheme, which is administered by the Legal Aid Board. In its more than 40 years of operation, the civil legal aid scheme has been a significant and beneficial public service, providing legal aid and advice to people of limited means in civil disputes, including family law.
However, since the scheme was set up, Irish society has changed and the demands of the service have grown. In order to meet the needs of those it was established to serve, within the finite resources available to fund legal aid, a comprehensive review of the scheme is now under way. This review will include consideration of eligibility limits. The Minister, Deputy McEntee, established the review group chaired by former Chief Justice, Mr. Justice Frank Clarke. The membership of the group is drawn from legal practitioners; academics; Department officials; those who work with marginalised groups; and representatives from the Legal Aid Board, which administers the statutory scheme. As part of the review, a comprehensive multi-phased process of consultation has been conducted to ensure that as wide a range of views as possible is captured. The results of all elements of the consultation are now being carefully considered by the review group. The group is also examining how legal needs are met in other jurisdictions. The Minister, Deputy Harris, met with the chair of the review group yesterday and received an update on the progress of the report. The work of the group is ongoing, with a report expected later this year.
Separately, new legislation is being prepared which would see the administration of the criminal legal aid scheme, with a budget of approximately €70 million per annum transferred to the Legal Aid Board from my Department. The general scheme of this new criminal legal aid Bill, which will update and modernise the law on criminal legal aid generally, is currently being finalised with a view to going to Government for approval to publish and refer for pre-legislative scrutiny.
Does the Minister of State have any idea of the date the review will be finalised? We all know from dealing with these issues over the years, that the sector focuses primarily on family law centres. Will it be expanding into employment, landlord and tenant or advocacy such as in the United Kingdom? Many of us have received emails from constituents on this issue. There has been an industrial action of sorts in the criminal legal aid sector, undertaken by barristers who want the reversal of the austerity cuts which were made more than ten years ago and proper funding of the criminal legal aid scheme. The situation is not acceptable and we are at increasing risk of a two-tier system developing. After the crash, the legal aid scheme was supposed to be increased by 20%, but it was decreased by 20%. Those cuts have remained in place for a period of approximately ten years. It is always important that if one wants to guarantee a fair trial and a system of sorts to be fit for purpose, people who are at risk of imprisonment have a constitutional right. It does not matter how many people stand up in county councils throughout the country or even in this Chamber to say it should be denied to them, they have constitutional rights which should be vindicated.
The Minister, Deputy Harris, expects that review later this year, having met with former Chief Justice, Mr. Justice Frank Clarke, only yesterday. The review is comprehensive and once it is published, we will have a better understanding of the recommendations therein. I would not like to anticipate those recommendations at this point in time. However, I will say the review is comprehensive. With regard to criminal law and barristers in particular, my Department pays fees to barristers in the Circuit Court and High Court under the criminal legal aid scheme, on a par with the fees paid to prosecution counsel by the Director of Public Prosecutions, DPP. Strictly speaking, there are no fees for barristers in the District Court. However, when a court appoints a barrister in the District Court by way of certifying for a counsel, there is a payment of €572. We know there is often an agreement between solicitors and barristers in the District Court to split fees, but there is no circumstance for the barrister to sign a fee.
In the past it was not that common for barristers to appear in the District Court but now it is far more common. I acknowledge that it is difficult for young barristers.
The reality is that many poor people, who are very vulnerable and often suffering from addiction or mental illness, need the buffer of representation to deal with the prosecution and the whole system, including the judges. Equality before the law is a very important right and legal aid helps to provide this. The impact on defendants’ rights by the reduction in the fees means it is not economically viable for many barristers and solicitors to take on legal aid work. There is a serious risk of inequality for defendants who do not have the means to afford a different access to justice. It also compromises the balance between the State’s prosecutorial powers and defendants.
The other difficulty relates to the effect on retention and progression among barristers and solicitors. There is an impression that they come from a certain economic class, but as long as these cuts continue it is very difficult to retain people within the ranks of lawyers, especially in the more skilled in specialist areas, which is also a concern.
I agree with the Deputy that access to justice is absolutely critical to any fair society to provide support for those who are of limited means to facilitate them to have access to justice. Access to justice also means that solicitors and barristers are available to provide that service supported by the State. The review will look at the entire area of legal aid and how it is being provided. The pay for barristers is being looked at by the Department of Justice in conjunction with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. Regarding the District Court, barristers are not strictly speaking paid directly. Maybe that needs to be looked at.
An Garda Síochána
Cathal Berry
Question:4. Deputy Cathal Berry asked the Minister for Justice how he intends to improve recruitment and retention rates in An Garda Síochána; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [25403/23]
I wish to discuss with the Minister the strength of An Garda Síochána and any measures he intends to introduce to improve recruitment and retention rates.
I thank Deputy Berry for this important question. The Government is committed to doing all that we can to build stronger safer communities. A key part of that has to be supporting An Garda Síochána, increasing the numbers, resourcing and equipping it properly. That is why we have given the highest allocation ever to An Garda Síochána in budget 2023 of €2.1 billion. This level of funding will provide for a steady pipeline, if I may use that phrase, of new gardaí in coming years. The Government will continue to work closely with the Commissioner to ensure that members of An Garda Síochána are fully supported. The funding allocation we provided this year will fund the recruitment of up to 1,000 gardaí and 400 additional Garda staff this year. Those Garda staff are also important because they free up gardaí to do front-line policing duties.
The Government is steadfast in our commitment to support the Commissioner bringing the number of gardaí to 15,000 and above in the coming years. The 15,000 is not a ceiling; we want to go above and beyond that. There have been challenges with recruitment due to the Covid pandemic restrictions. Templemore College was closed during the time of the financial crash. When it finally reopened and was beginning to ramp up, it closed again twice as a result of the Covid pandemic. However, we are now back in a period of annual recruitment campaigns. The Commissioner assures me that with a steady pipeline of recruits to the Garda College, recruitment will continue to meet the demands of the organisation.
There has been almost a 10% increase in the number of Garda members since 2015 when we really began recruiting again. The high level of interest in the recent recruitment campaign is somewhat encouraging. Almost 5,000 people applied to be a garda through the application process which closed in recent weeks. Less than 1% of Garda members resigned last year. I never gloss over that figure. We should always probe that, but it was less than 1%. We obviously live in a country with full employment. Between the 90 gardaí who entered Templemore in November, 133 in the first intake this year, 154 more last week and 50 more who have accepted places but prefer to go in later in the year we now have more than 400 gardaí in training in Templemore or indicating that they will begin their training this year, with further classes due to start in July, September and likely December.
I very much welcome the increased budget allocation. I accept that there has been an increase from 2015 to 2020. I know the Covid pandemic has been used for a number of reasons, some genuine and some perhaps not so. There seems to be an overemphasis on recruitment. As we both know, retention is the second side of that coin. Instead of just focusing on recruitment figures, we should probably look at what the net overall strength would be. I take the Minister’s point, which I welcome, that the overall goal is to reach at least 15,000. I am not sure if there is a timeline associated. The current strength is about 14,030 and that number fluctuates on a weekly basis. Does the Government have an indicative figure for the overall strength it would like An Garda Síochána to reach at the end of this year? Does it have a ballpark figure and, if not, is it something it might consider publishing?
The aim is to recruit 1,000 new gardaí this year. The exact net increase depends on a number of variables, such as how many people retire or resign from the Garda this year. The high-level target I have set is that by the end of this year, it will be the first year since the Covid pandemic that Garda numbers are back growing. This should be the first year that recruitment begins to outpace the number leaving An Garda Síochána. If the Deputy asked me to make my best guesstimate as to how we get to the 15,000, I would say a very decent recruitment campaign this year, followed by a decent recruitment campaign next year could get us there by the end of 2024. There are variables in that but if we were to recruit 1,000 gardaí this year, 1,000 next year and allow for the attrition retirements and resignations, it is in that ballpark.
The Deputy is right about the importance of retention. I accept that gardaí do an extremely hard job. I engage with and have respect for the Garda representative bodies. I take seriously what they say and we should always listen to them. I also have to take seriously the Garda Síochána cultural audit last year which found that job satisfaction was high among Garda personnel. That is part of the conversation that sometimes we do not get to hear. That independent survey showed that gardaí were proud to serve the communities, were motivated and wanted work to protect people from harm.
I thank the Minister for that useful information. Most people would say that being a garda is not the job that it used to be. It is not as attractive a career as it was in the past. This relates to shift work, work-life balance and perhaps the lack of respect for gardaí among some members of the public. It is a more dangerous job. Post 2013 the paltry pension is a fraction of what their predecessors would have had and is having an effect.
I intend to be as constructive as possible. The Garda Reserve is a very underutilised pool of people. There are about 300 people in the Garda Reserve at the moment. It is an excellent tool for both recruitment and retention. People can test the water and if they like it, they can transfer to the regular service thereafter. It is also good for people with young families. A regular member of An Garda Síochána might be going through a very intense period at home for a couple of years, perhaps looking after an elderly parent and may wish to step back from the front-line Garda service for a couple of years. Is it possible to transfer from the regular service to the Garda Reserve just for a couple of years and then transfer back? If not, perhaps the Minister might consider that to improve retention.
I will certainly take that away and look at it because I see the logic in what the Deputy is saying. The Garda Reserve has a very important role to play alongside growing Garda numbers, which we are now back growing with an annual recruitment campaign. Recruiting Garda staff is important. I have met many staff in Garda stations across this country in recent months. They are doing sterling work, core work, really important work, but work that frees up sworn members of An Garda Síochána to do front-line policing work.
I want to see a Garda Reserve recruitment campaign this year. Later this year, we intend to launch a new Garda Reserve recruitment campaign to get people who wish to be Garda reserves and support gardaí in their work. I accept that being a garda is an extraordinarily difficult job. Even the recent recruitment campaign did not try to suggest it was not. However, it is a job worth doing. It is an impactful job. It is a job in which someone can make a difference. I also accept it is a different job in many ways from what it was in the past with online social media, some threats gardaí face now and the intensity of the work. That is why it is so important that we have really good engagement and do everything we can to engage closely with Garda representative bodies and associations and listen to the views of gardaí. That is certainly what the Government will do.
Question No. 5 taken with Written Answers.