We are joined by the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, whom we welcome.
Retained Fire Services: Motion [Private Members]
I move:
That Dáil Éireann:
expresses its admiration and appreciation to the Retained Firefighters who keep our communities safe across the country at huge personal sacrifice to themselves;
recognises:
— that Retained Firefighters are restricted from travelling outside a radius of as low as 2.5 kilometres of their station without first obtaining permission, which has a huge negative impact on their own and their families' lives;
— the very great commitment they make to be local and available, to train approximately 100 hours per annum alongside additional training requirements, and ultimately to run into a burning building and save lives; and
— that they provide this invaluable service and make these commitments in exchange for a guaranteed income of as little as €8,696 per annum;
notes with concern that:
— recruitment and retention levels in the retained fire services are beyond crisis point, as confirmed in the Government's most recent review which stated that 58 per cent of current Retained Firefighters said they were likely to leave the service within the next three years;
— due to current staffing shortages, the demands being placed upon current members of the Retained Firefighters and their families are unsustainable; and
— the ongoing failure to address the problems of the retained fire service is placing the health and safety of its members, and the public in danger;
condemns:
— the lack of action and political leadership from Minister Darragh O'Brien TD to resolve these issues, which have led to the retention and recruitment crisis in the retained fire services;
— the failure of the Government to meaningfully engage with representative bodies acting on behalf of the Retained Firefighters, which has forced the National Retained Firefighters Association to engage in industrial action; and
— the approach of the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Darragh O'Brien TD, and the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, Paschal Donohoe TD, which demonstrates zero appreciation of the huge dedication and sacrifice of our Retained Firefighters; and
calls on the Government to:
— urgently engage with representative bodies acting on behalf of the Retained Firefighters to avert an escalation of industrial action;
— bring forward a financial investment package which allows for the creation of a new framework for service delivery for retained fire services, and provides for increased remuneration and better conditions for current and future members; and
— immediately issue guidance to all fire authorities in respect of operational resources, including minimum staffing levels relative to the risk, various types of employee leave and standardised recruitment processes.
I welcome to the Gallery members of the fire services and retained fire services from a number of stations throughout the country. Needless to say, they are men and women who daily put their lives at risk to keep us, our families and our communities safe, and they deserve our deepest respect and gratitude. However, given the circumstances surrounding this debate, I would say that the men and women of the retained fire services are not particularly interested in whether they get gratitude from anybody on the floor of the Dáil. What they want is the crisis in the service in which they risk their lives to be fixed as a matter of urgency.
There is a terrible sense of déjà vu to this discussion. The Minister will remember we had the same conversation last November. At that time, there was such a level of frustration and anger among the front-line workers in the fire services that they had initiated the process of balloting for industrial action. When last November they protested outside Leinster House and many of us, both in government and in opposition, went to speak to them, they highlighted a number of key issues. They highlighted the appallingly low level of pay that many of them experience and the unacceptable organisation of rosters that makes it virtually impossible for many of them to have a decent standard of living, let alone quality of life. They also highlighted the crisis of recruitment and retention, the at times dangerously low levels of staff on duty, and the need for that to be fixed.
The Minister responded last year and I will quote his response. He said, "I have had a real admiration for and interest in the work of our fire services for many years", which I do not doubt for a moment. In his concluding remarks, he said that what was then required was the publication of the report, which was subsequently published in December. He also said that what was required was the working through of the recommendations to see how quickly they could be implemented. He went on to state, "We now want to ensure staff themselves have the pay, rostering and work conditions they deserve and I am committed to doing that." We are now seven months on and the frustration and anger of the men and women in question is now so great that they have balloted for and initiated industrial action. Not a single one of those people who voted for industrial action wants to be taking it. These are people who put their lives on the line for us. They do not want to be in the Gallery or to be taking industrial action. They want to be out doing their jobs. The problem is that progress has been virtually non-existent. That is why my colleague Deputy John Brady, who as part of his portfolio leads for Sinn Féin on this issue, has tabled a motion reiterating the need for the Government to take emergency action. This is not a new issue. It has been around since 2005 and 2018. It has been around since the latter part of last year. Our motion simply calls for the Government to engage directly with the representative bodies and to bring forward a financial package and new framework for service delivery to provide for increased remuneration and better conditions for current and future members. It also calls for the immediate issuance of guidance for all fire authorities in respect of operational resources, including minimum staffing levels relative to the risk for various types of employees, leave and standardised recruitment.
Only a few hours ago, the Government tabled its countermotion. There had been some expectation, and there still is, that the Government was going to say something significant today. However, there is nothing significant in the countermotion whatsoever. It simply restates the position the Minister stated last year. I hope, not for my sake or that of Deputy Brady or any of my other colleagues but for the men and women represented here and paying attention across the country, that the Minister will give us some indication as to when those eminently reasonable demands around pay, rostering, recruitment and retention, and safety will be addressed. Failure to do that will see this industrial action escalate, not because anybody in the retained fire services wants to be involved in industrial action but because of the Government's failure to act. We will listen intently to the Minister. We want to know when he will act and what he will do to end the crisis in our fire services that has lasted for decades.
I acknowledge the members of the retained fire service who have travelled here from throughout the State. I acknowledge this is the last place they want to be. I also acknowledge the many more hundreds who are on picket lines across the State and would like to be here. They do not want to be on picket lines and they do not want to be here. They want the Minister to do his job. I also acknowledge the work done by SIPTU and the National Retained Firefighters Association, NRFA, in mobilising and representing the retained firefighters so well.
A few short months ago, the Minister and I faced each other across the Dáil Chamber during a debate on a motion on the crisis within the retained service. The motion was brought forward by Sinn Féin in front of a Gallery packed with retained firefighters and with their full support. The Minister at the time stated there were issues within the retained fire service. However, he refused to support the Sinn Féin motion, which contained solutions to the recruitment and retention crisis. He stated he had initiated a review of the model of the retained fire service, entitled Retained Fire Services in Ireland - A Review of Recruitment and Retention and the Future Sustainability of Service Delivery. On that basis, the Minister would not support the Sinn Féin motion. That report was published, as we know, in December last year with 13 key recommendations. We are being told that the Government and the Minister support those recommendations. However, the discussion between the representatives of the retained fire service and the Local Government Management Agency, LGMA, broke down in May, citing restrictions put on the negotiations by the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. The reason there is a strike at the moment is simply down to the double-talk of Government. It states it is willing to support changes to pay and conditions but in the same breath refuses to implement the key recommendations around remuneration, citing the Building Momentum agreement. The Government is telling us the retainer paid to retained firefighters is an actual wage when they were told in the past it was an allowance, which has had the effect of precluding them from benefiting from a 7.5% increase under Building Momentum. Firefighters instead have received a 3% increase to their call-out allowance. If the Government is adamant the retainer is, in fact, a wage, the onus is on it to provide firefighters with the back pay owed to them on the basis the Government has failed to pay them the national minimum wage. At the moment, retained firefighters are on call 24-7, 351 days a year but only get 99 cent per hour for that service.
What I do not want to see here this evening is a repeat of the plámásing the Minister undertook in this Chamber in November. He engaged in plámásing and backslapping. We have had enough. Firefighters have had enough of lip service. We need to see some meaningful action from Government. It is the Minister's action and inaction that have led to the current situation where 50% of fire stations throughout the State are closed this week, with full strike action looming from next week. Nobody wants to be in this situation and that is particularly true of the firefighters. We are now past the point of no return.
In fact, the point of no return was 20 years ago when the then Government published the Farrell Grant Sparks report, in 2002, which recommended a major overhaul of the retained fire service. That Fianna Fáil-led Government and every Government since has simply failed to implement the critical overhaul of the retained service that is required and that failure has led to the current recruitment and retention crisis that we see today.
The retained fire service is broken. It is unsustainable. If the Government insists on continuing to ignore the real crisis within its ranks, this crisis will lead to death or injury to firefighters and-or members of the public.
On the best of days being a retained firefighter is a dangerous job but, when presented with critical levels of understaffing to the degree which some fire authorities are faced with decisions to have to close stations temporarily, it can become tragically dangerous. In reality, most fire authorities are operating below establishment figures. In many jobs, being understaffed is stressful. Often it means the smaller crew must work harder, work longer hours and be on-call for an even greater number of unsocial hours.
We need immediate action. We have seen deaths. In 2007, two firefighters in Bray lost their lives because of the failures within the retained service. I do not say it lightly, but the current situation will lead to injuries. It will lead to death unless Government takes immediate action.
I appeal to the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien. We have the Minister's report. We have his 13 recommendations. The least the Minister could do now is act and implement his own recommendations immediately to stop this strike escalating to full industrial strike action.
You all in the Visitors' Gallery are very welcome. It is good to have you up there but it is not allowable to applaud. Please, if you could, stay quiet.
I also want to welcome firefighters, especially the Tipperary boys, the Tipp boys, here today. They should not have to be here.
I was talking to a retained firefighter this morning whose family has a history of being in the fire service. He told me that the tradition ends with him, because it is not viable anymore for his son to become involved. This sums up what we are talking about, namely, a service that is understaffed because its pay and conditions cause it to leak staff - it is continuing to leak staff - and to reduce available services and thereby deterring new entrants to the fire service.
In talking to many personnel this morning in Tipperary and outside the gates earlier on this matter, I was warned in no uncertain terms that there is every possibility that if this continues, workers' safety will be put further at risk and services could ultimately be lost to communities. If the Minister was faced with the prospect of an annual retainer of €8,500 to be on call for 48 weeks of the year and to reside within a certain radius to guarantee a six-minute response time to the station, he would not find it financially viable either, let alone something that would attract new recruits with young families. When new recruits are thin on the ground, then so is the availability of services.
I will let the Minister know - he may not care - that Tipp town should have 12 personnel running two pumps. Instead, it has eight members, which means that when providing for three staff members of be off at any time they are left with five staff, the minimum to run one vehicle. If their numbers fall any further, they must rely on the nearest station to assist. Cahir and Cashel are the two nearest and both are eight miles from Tipperary town.
These stations are being put to the pin of their collar. Cashel is a two-pump station. Every so often, precisely because of staff numbers, they find themselves dropping to a one-pump station as well. In the north of the county, staffing numbers are also limiting services. Nenagh is short two members. They also lose a pump from time to time for the same reasons.
When the Minister speaks, he needs to outline a financial investment package which allows for the creation of a new framework for service delivery for retained fire services and which provides for increased remuneration and better conditions.
On the subject of service availability, I ask the Minister to examine the central response assessment process as one station told me that, traditionally, it would be confident of 220 calls a year. Recently, they went for a month without a call and then, suddenly, eight calls in a week came to them. It begs the question of what is happening in the central assessment process that appears to reduce the amount of call-outs to particular stations.
My Sinn Féin colleagues and I stand fully behind the retained firefighters. They are always there for the communities they are committed to. They need to be shown the same respect by the Government and by the Minister. The health and safety of these men and women and that of the public must be a priority. There must be no more dragging of the Minister's heels on this issue and he must get it sorted out. The Minister must put an immediate funding package together, get this sorted out now and let the brave men and women back doing their jobs and not here protesting. This is going on for 23 years according to newspaper reports this morning. It is time for the Government to stop dragging its heels and get it done.
I was a member of Leitrim County Council for 12 years and during that time I got to know many of the retained firemen in my local community. They are part of the community. They live in the community. They serve that community. They are there when the most terrible crises in life happen for so many people.
In most parts of Ireland, when a crisis happens, when there is a huge accident and something catastrophic occurs, who are the people we call on? We call on people who are part time who are volunteering most of their time and effort for this.
They are highly trained. They have to train in the use of fire equipment, vehicles and breathing apparatus and yet these people are ordinary citizens who have to hold down other jobs as well.
When we need them, they are there for us. Therefore, it is incumbent on the Government to ensure it is there for them and that we are there to stand by them in their time of need. Their time of need is clearly now.
It is clear that the future is very dark for the retained fire service across the country. So many people who have been part of that service, over generations in some cases, tell me they will not get others to follow into it and people will simply not give up the time and effort which they are prepared to give to be part of that huge resource that is there for communities.
The Minister needs to act on this. The Minister needs to ensure that they are properly remunerated and that their pay and conditions are sorted out as was put in the Minister's own report. The Minister must follow through on it, not only for the firemen themselves but for the communities out there that depend so much upon them.
The Minister knows that we should not need to be here today. What has happened here is disgraceful. It is disgraceful that we are here and that these firefighters had to come in here today. I welcome them to the Gallery.
The Minister knows it is because of the non-action of the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform that we are here in the first instance. I ask the Minister to sort this out.
I do so particularly on behalf of the firefighters in Mayo. There are 113 retained firefighters working in 12 fire stations who are on call 24 hours a day in an emergency. They are highly trained and they are committed to keeping us all safe. Because of the lack of ambulance services and other first responders, they are often the first people on the scene of accidents across all of the roads in Mayo.
I ask the Minister to listen. I ask him to get this sorted out. The retained firefighters put their lives on the line in the course of their duty. They have families too. They deserve to have a life. They are giving us a service that is above and beyond and we need to remunerate them properly.
They are not being given the support or empathy that their role demands and due to the shortages of other personnel, as I said, they are often the only people who are there. We are absolutely dependent on them. We rely on them for health and safety. We rely on them across our county and across the other counties to save lives.
I take the opportunity to thank them for that but that is not enough. Their work must be valued and they must be remunerated properly. It is disgraceful that we are here in the first instance.
I will start with something that the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, will not disagree with. The men and women here in the Gallery and across the State are heroes. There is no question about that. I know the Minister will agree with that. They put their lives on the line. They risk life and limb. They are the people who I, the Minister or our loved ones could call upon in our hour of need in the most terrible of circumstances. The risks they take are enormous.
They do this on top of other jobs, on top of other caring responsibilities and on top of a million other obligations that they have. They do that because they are courageous, committed and dedicated, but that alone will not put food on the table. That alone will not sustain them or their families. We need to ensure that they can sustain themselves. It is for that reason that ever increasing numbers of women and men in the service are saying that they cannot do this anymore and fewer men and women are coming forward to say that they want to be a retained firefighter.
The recommendations are there. They are not from a trade union representative organisation or from civil society. They were commissioned by the Minister.
They need to be implemented. We need to stem the tide of people leaving the retained fire services.
In my remaining time, it would be remiss of me not to mention the issue of Ballincollig fire station. This is a town of more than 20,000 people that, by the time the census results are released, could have much more than that. It was not much more than a village when the station opened and it has now come into the functional area of Cork City Council. The station has closed and the people of Ballincollig and the entire city, given it is now in the functional area of the city, are facing a closed fire station and wondering what that means for the safety of the public generally speaking. The firefighting staff are pulling their hair out. They have been pushing for a resolution for a long time. I urge the Minister to engage with Cork City Council to try to get the station reopened.
Returning to the issue at the heart of the motion, it is clear the model that exists is unsustainable. Firefighters and their representative organisations have tried to engage to the best of their ability but the LGMA and, unfortunately, the Government have not met them on equal terms. We need to ensure they will get the respect they deserve and that we will get these recommendations implemented.
I move amendment No. 1:
To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:
"recognises that:
— Retained Firefighters are highly committed frontline responders providing an exceptional service within their communities;
— Retained Firefighters live and work within close proximity of their fire station, which provides operational cover and availability of fire appliances, and this model requires a firefighter to have a high level of availability to attend emergencies and can impact on work/life balance;
— Retained Firefighters are trained to the same level as full-time firefighters and deal with the same range of emergency scenarios, and for the purposes of both health and safety and to ensure training is kept up to date, Retained Firefighters train on a regular basis throughout the year and are paid accordingly for attending all training;
— the role of a Retained Firefighter is part-time, and was never intended to provide a full-time income; and
— significant progress has been made to date and a very strong proposal was made to the Services, Industrial, Professional and Technical Union (SIPTU), which included a 20 per cent increase in staffing, an element of rebalancing pay with a structured time off and flexible working arrangements, within the scope of the Building Momentum – Public Service Agreement 2021-2023;
notes that:
— the Fire Service Policy in Ireland is based on the Keeping Communities Safe framework that sets out a risk management approach to service provision, defining fire service roles, response standards and service delivery structures;
— retained fire services operate an Incident Command System supported by standard operating guidelines, with appropriate risk control measures, which underpin the highest levels of operational safety to protect fire crews responding into hazardous situations;
— it is clear from the preliminary findings of the report entitled 'Retained Fire Services in Ireland - A Review of Recruitment and Retention and the Future Sustainability of Service Delivery', that the work-life balance for Retained Firefighters needs to be addressed to make the retained fire service an attractive employment option, and this will require significant redesign of the current rostering model; and
— the current dispute has created a high-risk environment for firefighters and the public which is deeply undesirable, and that all stakeholders would benefit from utilising the agreed mechanism for dispute resolution, the Workplace Relations Commission;
acknowledges:
— that in recognition of issues experienced by retained fire services in recruitment and retention of staff, the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Darragh O'Brien TD, directed the Management Board of the National Directorate for Fire and Emergency Management to review the delivery and sustainability of the local authority 'retained' fire services, with particular emphasis on the recruitment and retention of staff;
— that the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage published the report entitled 'Retained Fire Services in Ireland – A Review of Recruitment and Retention and the Future Sustainability of Service Delivery' in December 2022;
— that contained within the report were 13 recommendations aimed at improving the retained fire service delivery model to address the issues around retention and recruitment;
— that discussions on the implementation of these recommendations began in January 2023, through the Fire Services National Oversight and Implementation Group, chaired by David Begg, and that, at the request of SIPTU, negotiations regarding the two priority industrial relations issues identified, structured time off and remuneration, were moved to a third-party facilitation forum chaired by Ultan Courtney;
— that substantial progress was made between the parties in agreeing a revised composite agreement to standardise future employment terms and conditions, to include provision for greater work/life balance which would enable a Retained Firefighter to be away from their station fire-ground area for up to 20 weeks a year; and
— the commitment of the Government to setting out a clear pathway forward on outstanding issues that recognises the crucial role of Retained Firefighters in their community; and
supports Retained Firefighters and their representative negotiating body SIPTU to urgently re-engage with representative bodies, acting on behalf of local authority employers, the Local Government Management Agency, to set out a pathway to resolve the outstanding issues in dispute.".
I welcome this Private Members' motion on the retained fire services because it affords me the opportunity to bring some clarity to the current circumstances and, I hope, set a pathway forward for all stakeholders. I welcome all the firefighters from throughout the country who have made the journey to be here, as well as those who are watching the debate online. As many of them will know, I have put on record more than once my long-standing admiration for, and interest in, the work of the fire services, long before I had ministerial responsibility for the firefighting portfolio.
As other Deputies noted, our firefighters are an elite front-line service staffed by dedicated, selfless people serving their communities around the clock, every day of the year. I know from my interactions with firefighters throughout the country that the work of these brave men and women can be physically challenging and psychologically demanding. They run towards danger, not away from it. It is a privilege to live in a decent country that trains, equips and supports members who take up the public duty to help us in the dark moments when disaster occurs. It is a testament to their dedication that we enjoy that comfort.
That spirit of public service is evident in the fact that in advance of the commencement of this period of industrial action, SIPTU confirmed that retained firefighters would comply with the provisions of the 1992 code of practice for emergency disputes, and I genuinely thank the union for providing that important commitment. I acknowledge and welcome the efforts of all parties during the first week of the industrial action and especially the dedication of the retained firefighters who have served to minimise the impact on the public. Knowing firefighters as I do, I would not have expected any less from such a committed group of front-line workers.
As Minister with responsibility for the fire services, I am acutely aware that retained firefighters provide an invaluable service that is essential to our communities throughout the country. I am conscious also of the special responsibility that places on me to ensure the men and women of this service are provided for and empowered to carry out their duties. It is a responsibility I undertake with the utmost seriousness. From conversations I have had with retained firefighters, I have for some time been acutely aware of the challenges associated with both the recruitment and the retention of fire personnel being experienced throughout the country.
It was for this reason I requested the national directorate for fire and emergency management to review the delivery and sustainability of the local retained fire services, with a specific emphasis on the recruitment and retention of staff. That report, which was alluded to earlier, was published in December 2022 and contained 13 recommendations aimed at improving the retained firefighter service delivery model and addressing the issues with recruitment and retention. I brought a memo to the Government in early January to note the issues raised in the review, along with the 13 recommendations designed to resolve many of the issues we are discussing, all of which were accepted by the Government. Recommendations to revise the service delivery model were identified as the key priority for both unions and management.
Building on that report, the LGMA and my Department were fully engaged and listened to the concerns raised on behalf of firefighters. To this end, the LGMA engaged in a series of meetings and presented a revised model for service delivery with the following key features: an increase in staff of approximately 20% to provide a minimum of 12 firefighters in all stations; structured time off; individual flexibility with regard to availability; 50 additional promotional positions; flexibility to attend calls when scheduled on leave if desired; and no reduction to the retainer payment. The proposals tabled were in the context of greater flexibility to allow retained firefighters to have opportunities, and rightly so, for more personal time to use for additional employment, family or work-life balance, as desired.
At the second plenary meeting last month, chaired by Ultan Courtney, SIPTU welcomed the revised model but clearly stated its members had an expectation of a significant increase in pay, which had not been addressed in the table of proposals. The LGMA clarified that a pay increase could not be considered outside of the current national collective public pay agreement, the Building Momentum structures. In an effort to work with SIPTU and come to an equitable agreement, the LGMA proposed some rebalancing of pay that would include a widening of the premium hours bands and additional fixed-earnings potential in the areas of pre-incident planning and home fire safety visits. Substantial progress was made between the parties during these initial talks to agree a revised composite agreement to standardise future employment terms and conditions, including provision for greater work-life balance that would enable a retained firefighter to be away from his or her station fire-ground area for up to 20 weeks a year. There is a strong foundation to build on.
I understand the key outstanding issue at dispute is the retainer payment. I want to give some context to that before trying to move it forward. All Deputies will be familiar with public service agreements and how they work, and they all know rates of pay for public sector employees are set by collective agreements. They are put in place to ensure public service pay will be managed sustainably and in a climate of industrial peace. In practice, this means that despite what I or union representatives might like to see in an ideal scenario, it is not within our gift to make an exception or operate outside of the terms of national public service pay policy. That type of selectivity would completely unravel the collective approach that has served us well and helped to share our prosperity without industrial action that would jeopardise it. We have to jump together or we will all fall separately.
There is, however, a way forward that meets firefighters' needs and protects the integrity of the collective pay process. I do not believe there is an appetite within the retained brigades, local authority employers or my Department for this action to continue indefinitely. We all want to protect our communities, keep them safe and be there to support them through times of need. It is clear the issue of the fixed element of retained firefighter remuneration needs to be addressed to meet the legitimate needs of firefighters. In good faith, I want to state as clearly and simply as possible my personal commitment to ensuring the retainer payment will be positively dealt with in the upcoming national pay talks.
I acknowledge firefighters are frustrated, but I hope they can see my bona fides in prioritising this issue and supporting them since I came into office. I directed the recent review to be carried out, fully accepted the findings and recommendations, and have discussed it at length with my Government colleagues, who have confirmed their broad support for its objectives. I will be a strong advocate for, and champion of, firefighters on the retainer issue in the upcoming collective pay talks. I am confident the retainer issue will be positively dealt with and will form a basis to ensure we can continue to attract and, importantly, retain firefighters in the service.
To move this forward and avert an escalation of the dispute that nobody wants, I call on SIPTU to re-engage with the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, to copper-fasten and secure the progress on conditions made to date and work towards finalising these issues and securing a new pay agreement in the overall national pay talks in the autumn. Furthermore, I accept the driver-mechanic role is a genuine issue for firefighters, and I have instructed my officials to review this matter with a view to reaching an agreement with SIPTU on it. As well as that, premium hours will be reviewed with a view to extending them further if this engagement can be entered into this week.
Engagement at the WRC is the route out of an industrial relations dead end. We will ensure conditions are improved, contentious reform elements eliminated, the service strengthened and pay then resolved in the national pay talks format.
This can be done quickly and without escalating the dispute further to another level that will not serve firefighters or, indeed, the public. Further escalation will only entrench positions and make it harder, not easier, to reach an agreement while placing further pressure on public protection. I am asking SIPTU to continue in the spirit of positive engagement it has shown to date and to urgently re-engage with the employer side on behalf of the retained firefighters through the established industrial relation mechanisms. We will formally write to them to convey this and will seek engagement involving the Workplace Relations Commission by the end of this week.
The right to strike is a part of the lifeblood of our democracy but compromise is the beating heart of it. We need to talk to each other and work together to move forward. I hope firefighters will meet this proposal in the spirit of reconciliation and determination in which it is offered. I hope we can continue to co-operate on building a fire service that protects communities and recognises the worth of its members.
The Minister has got the immediate reaction of firefighters to what he has said. They have walked out of the Public Gallery in response to his words because he gave pretty much the same speech here last November. There is absolute tone deafness among the likes of the LGMA, the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and the Government. How can the Minister possibly connect the working pay and conditions that have been so well reported to the people of Ireland over the past week on our public airwaves, namely, the shocking conditions where the firefighters are supposed to be available 50 weeks of the year, 24-7, within 3 km of their stations. With the type of pay and conditions they have, how can the Minister possibly compare them with every other public sector worker? That is the point. They have very separate pay, conditions and treatment, from all other public sector workers. How can it possibly be undermining a collective pay agreement to deal with that issue, to treat them fairly and with the dignity and fairness they deserve. I find it astonishing for anybody on one side of the negotiations to say that if they give the firefighters parity of treatment and dignity with all other public sector workers, they would be breaking a deal. Will the Minister name one public sector worker who will object to treating those firefighters properly? Will he name one public sector worker that would say "I am sorry but you have broken the collective pay agreement" if firefighters were treated properly and fairly at last? This is an arrangement from the 1950s. It is from back in the day when a mechanic or a farmer might have been asked to respond as a community service. This is 2023. People have to put a roof over their heads. They have to look after their families and deal with massive costs. We know all about the house prices and rent prices. We have taken the salt of the earth of our country for granted for far too long. These are people with civic pride. They are agonising about this strike because if a fire or a road traffic collision happens in their community, they know the people involved. It is absolutely agonising to force people like that to go on strike. Will the Minister please not come up with this nonsense about the collective agreement being broken in doing the right thing by firefighters. He has to pull back from that position and do it urgently. We are in an awful situation here.
Again, the only person in the room who seems to have a copy of the Minister's speech is the Minister. I ask that it could be made available as soon as possible. It is very unbecoming. It is a damning indictment of the continued failures of successive Governments-----
It is the second time the Minister has come into the House and not furnished his speech, particularly as there were details in the speech he just made that are very pertinent to this debate and to which we are to react in real time. It shows a fundamental disrespect.
The Deputy's point has been made. He is eating into Deputy Clarke's speaking time.
It is a damning indictment of the continued failures of successive Governments that this situation has been allowed to develop. The asks of our retained firefighters are in the ha'penny place compared with the service they provide our community. Their asks are for a safe environment, an appropriate staffing level, and decent pay and conditions. These are asks that if we were to hear of any other workers asking for in our communities, we would be shocked and horrified that they do not exist already. I heard the Minister speaking of clear pathways, memos and reviews. He may correct me if I am wrong from his only copy of this speech, he actually called for "a spirit of reconciliation" by the firefighters. These are the people who are standing out there protesting to ensure our retained fire services are the best they can be. The Minister wants them to engage in reconciliation. I truly hope I heard the Minister wrong because if I did not, that really beggars belief.
It is a dangerous job that these men and women do, and it is made even more dangerous when they are forced to operate at low crew numbers. I have heard talk of investment in capital from the Government side over the past few days. Investment in capital and equipment means nothing if the personnel are not on the ground to be able to use it. We recognise and value retained firefighters on this side of the House. It is beyond time that those on the other side of the House began to do the same.
Hear, hear.
I listened to the Taoiseach earlier as he was being questioned by my party leader about the crisis in the retained fire service. He said over and over again that the Government values retained firefighters. The Minister has told us here this evening that he admires them. These are nice words. If the Taoiseach and the Government valued them, however, retained firefighters would not be on picket lines across counties Roscommon and Galway and the rest of the State today. They have been forced into this situation and it is one they do not want to be in. They do not want to be on the picket lines today; they do not want to be up here this evening either. They want to be doing the job they really love to do in their communities on the front line providing a critical emergency service in, and for, their community. The question has to be asked. If the Government persists down this road of not listening to what is being said by the retained firefighters, where are we going to end up? We already have a crisis in recruitment and retention. Are we going to be left with any fire service at all in some parts of the State? That is really what is at stake here at this time. The longer this goes and the longer this is left for pay deals and talks and kicking the can down the road, that is the situation that communities are being put in and it is of no fault of retained firefighters who are doing this job day in, day out. They are being absolutely disrespected and have been for far too long when it comes to an issue that is literally life or death in so many cases. These are the men and women who put their lives at risk when they get a call and attend at a scene. They are the ones who attend fatal car and vehicle collisions and are left to clean up what is left. They do that for 99 cent an hour. They make enormous sacrifices as do their families to provide a lifesaving service for their communities, and they do it for 99 cent an hour. There are counties right across the State, of which Roscommon and Galway are two, which are hugely dependent on retained fire service.
These men and women are asking for fair pay; nothing more, nothing less. Hiding behind the Building Momentum agreement, as the Taoiseach tried to do today and as the Minister has done here this evening, is not good enough. If we value and admire these men and women, we need to pay them at a rate that recognises the very difficult, dangerous job that they do and that recognises their commitment to their local communities.
We are taking the retained firefighters and their families for granted. The Government needs to put a realistic offer on the table. The two counties I represent, namely, Laois and Offaly, are completely dependent on retained firefighters. I met delegates yesterday from all the stations in the county and they outlined the crisis. This is not just the crisis of the firefighters but the crisis that exists in trying to get people into the service and keep people in it. They expressed enormous frustration at the lack of progress.
I addressed the Minister on this subject last year, as did some of my colleagues. We outlined the situation we were facing to the Minister at the time and said that matters were going to escalate. The report has been out for more than six months. The Minister accepts all of its contents and the recommendations. So do we and so do the firefighters. Therefore, let us do it. It is not good enough for the buck to be passed around. The retained firefighter model as constructed is no longer sustainable. On top of the recruitment crisis, the report found that 60% of the retained staff are considering leaving within the next two years. In some fire stations in Laois-Offaly, the numbers are down to five members and this is compromising staff safety.
A realistic offer must be put on the table by the Government and the LGMA to avert this action from justifiably escalating further. If we are going to attract new people into the service, we have to deal with retention. It is impossible to recruit people as it is and we are asking people to be on call 24-7, 340 days of the year. I heard the Taoiseach tell my party leader earlier that staff numbers will be increased by 20%. They will not be, because we will not be able to get people. There are posters outside some of the stations in Laois trying to recruit people and the authorities cannot get people. People will not be got, it is as simple as that. The simple facts are the Government must deal with this issue. It cannot keep kicking the ball around on this one and passing the buck.
Some of my friends are in the fire service and they have missed communions. I know of a member who was at a meal following his child's communion when his bleeper went off. He is in a station where there are five. Up he had to get with the suit on him so he could tog out to go fight a fire. That is not good enough, because they cannot get time off. I am trying to impress on the Minister that he will not be able to get the people because of the terms and conditions in place. It is important there are proper rosters and proper pay and conditions put on the table. The last thing I will say is about going outside pay agreements. Will the Government stop talking about that, for God's sake? A senior civil servant got a rise of €80,000. What pay agreement does that comply with? How does that work? I have never had that explained to me in this House or anywhere else. Other senior civil servants are lining up for it. If they can get it, surely to God we can do something for the people who are on 90 cent an hour and look after them. We need to do it and it needs to be done soon.
Debate adjourned.