Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 13 Jun 2023

Vol. 1039 No. 6

Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

As I speak, retained firefighters are on strike. Rolling work stoppages will see half the fire stations in the service shut. This will be followed by all-out strike action next week outside of emergency calls. The strike is unprecedented and certainly has not been undertaken lightly. Retained firefighters have been pushed to the very brink by the Government and feel they have been left with no choice. They are the very best of our communities. They do their jobs under incredibly difficult circumstances, acting as first responders at scenes most of us could never even imagine. They are saving lives while often putting their own lives on the line. Their work is essential, highly skilled, lifesaving and totally undervalued by this Government.

Retained firefighters are at their wits' end. They are on call 24-7, 50 weeks of the year. They are underpaid and overstretched, and feel totally let down. For years they have urged the Government to deliver a proper plan to ensure they have safe working conditions and fair pay, but the Government has buried its head in the sand. Fire services should be a basic public service that communities can rely on and not an optional luxury. Years of underinvestment and failure to plan by the Government have seen these services run into the ground and there is now clearly a recruitment and retention crisis. Staff shortages are worryingly common and unions warn that staff levels are often dangerously low. Indeed, some fire authorities have been forced to temporarily close stations due to unsafe staffing levels. There is a real risk that all of this could get even worse. The Government's most recent review reveals that 58% of current retained firefighters warned they were likely to leave the service within the next three years, forced to give up a job they love because they cannot continue. Negotiations with the firefighters' representatives have been insufficient and in any event have broken down.

Tá an tseirbhís dóiteáin atá ar bhonn páirtaimseartha faoi bhrú. Níl an dara rogha acu ach dul ar stailc. Leis na blianta gan infheistíocht cheart agus ceannaireacht lag ón Rialtas, ní mór don Rialtas plean Shinn Féin a chur i bhfeidhm agus a chinntiú go bhfaigheann foireann na seirbhíse dóiteáin an pá cothrom agus na cúinsí oibre sábháilte atá á lorg acu.

Sinn Féin has brought forward solutions to resolve this matter and our proposals will come before the Dáil tonight. Our plan urges the Government to engage in proper good-faith negotiations with representatives of the retained firefighters to address their concerns without delay and to prevent any further escalation of industrial action. This needs to happen urgently. Our plan would empower the Government to bring forward a financial investment package to ensure the service gets the funding and resourcing it needs. This would allow for the creation of a system with safe staffing levels. Will the Taoiseach stand with our firefighters? Will he back Sinn Féin's plan to support the retained fire services? Will he support our motion tonight?

The Taoiseach

I thank the Deputy. At the outset, on behalf of the Government, I want to express our shock and horror at the events in Nottingham today. We do not yet know the details because only a certain amount of information is available but it is clear there have been fatalities and a number of injuries. We extend our condolences to those whose loved ones or friends have been killed. We send our best wishes for a speedy recovery to those who have been injured. We will be in touch with British authorities today to offer any assistance we can give and, of course, our solidarity.

In respect of the matter raised by the Deputy, the Government values the work of our retained firefighters. They are highly committed front-line responders, providing an exceptional service in communities across the State.

We know that their terms and conditions need to improve and we are committed to making that happen. The Government has been working on this issue for a number of months. There have been negotiations and significant progress has been made with a proposal made to SIPTU, which included a 20% increase in staffing and elements of rebalancing of pay, with structured time off and more flexible working arrangements. This would all fall within the scope of Building Momentum, the public sector pay agreement that the unions and the Government are committed to and that both sides must honour.

I hope that the two sides can re-engage to resolve the dispute. The offices of the Government are available to intervene. The Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, would be the first port of call in that regard. My message to the public is that emergency contingencies are in place and that any emergency calls relating to fires will be answered.

Aontaím leis an Teachta. Tá an tseirbhís dóiteáin faoi bhrú. Beidh an fhadhb sin á réiteach ach caithfimid a bheith ag caint le chéile arís. Tá oifigí an Stáit, mar shampla, the WRC, ar fáil chun an chaint seo a chur ar siúl arís.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I thank the Taoiseach. As he well knows, the discussions broke down on 11 May. He has acknowledged that the retained firefighters are under pressure. As I said earlier, they are on call 24-7. They cannot move further than a radius of 2.5 km without sanction. They make very considerable personal sacrifices. Their retainer, their fixed salary, starts at the huge sum of €8,500 per annum. There has to be movement on that. The Taoiseach has to bring more than hope to the table or offer more than passing the buck. It is essential that there is meaningful engagement. There can be no further delay.

The relevant Department has had some limited contact with union representatives, but we need to see that stepped up. Positive comments that might be made here on the floor of the Dáil are all well and good, but what we need is a proper realistic offer that rewards these essential front-line workers for the lifesaving tasks they undertake. I agree with the Taoiseach in terms of getting back around the negotiating table. What will he, as Head of Government, do to make sure that good-faith negotiations resume without further delay?

The Taoiseach

In January, the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications, Deputy Eamon Ryan, brought an independent report to Cabinet on the retained fire service. We accepted the recommendations of that report. Negotiations were ongoing up until a few weeks ago. A third-party negotiator, Mr. Ultan Courtney, was appointed to chair those talks. An offer was made which would involve: a 20% increase in staffing, with a minimum of 12 firefighters in all fire stations; structured time off, recognising the need for proper work-life balance; individual flexibility with regard to availability; 50 additional promotional positions; and flexibility to attend calls when scheduled on leave if desired.

There is an outstanding issue relating to core pay. The difficulty that arises is that we have an agreement with the trade unions as a whole on public sector pay. It is called Building Momentum. We are going to honour that agreement. It is only reasonable that we should expect the union side to honour that agreement as well. There is room for talks. There is room for compromise. There is the capacity for intervention. The offer is there to allow talks to resume and to do so under the offices of the WRC, which is the Government body that intervenes in disputes such as this.

Deputy Holly Cairns

I have to ask if the Government believes in climate science. It is hard to see how it can believe in climate science and then take some of the decisions that it is taking. We had confirmation yesterday that the extraordinary growth of data centres is continuing. Their consumption of electricity increased by more than 30% last year. Data centres now use up as much electricity as every single household in urban areas and nearly twice as much as all rural homes. The amount of electricity demand from data centres was almost entirely matched by the growth in electricity from wind generation in 2022. In other words, we are running to stand still in decarbonising our energy system.

The Government does not seem to have any concerns about this.

Yesterday, the Minister for the Environment, Climate, Communications, Deputy Eamon Ryan, criticised the Opposition for blaming data centres and vowed to work with them. I cannot believe I need to explain this to the leader of the Green Party, but it seems necessary to do so. We do not blame data centres for being data centres. We blame the Government for not introducing a moratorium on data centres when the Social Democrats first called for one two years ago, and for failing to impose conditions on their operations.

It is not just data centres that are endangering our climate targets. According to the Environmental Protection Agency, the Government's entire climate action plan is in crisis. In the best case scenario, if every part of the plan is fully implemented, our emissions will decrease by only 29%, not the necessary 51%. How will the Government bridge this enormous gap? We have no idea. Does the Taoiseach? Instead of talking about this, he has been much more eager to talk about the EU nature restoration law but, sadly, not in a useful or constructive way, just scaremongering. He said the law would make it more difficult to build wind farms. WindEurope has described his remarks as fundamentally wrong. He said the law goes too far and would endanger our food security. The opposite is true. Not that we needed any more evidence, more than 60 major companies and industry groups have rejected that, saying our food security depends on protecting and restoring our critically endangered biodiversity.

To be fair, I should say the Taoiseach is not alone in cynically undermining the law. Fianna Fáil and Sinn Féin MEPs are doing the same. People are genuinely worried about politicians talking out of both sides of their mouths on this issue. It is too important. They want climate action, not a combination of greenwashing and scaremongering. It is not an exaggeration to say our lives and our livelihoods depend on it.

Will the Government impose a moratorium on data centres until it has carried out a strategic review? Will the Taoiseach tell us how it is intended to bridge the gap in the climate action plan? Will Fine Gael MEPs support the EU nature restoration law?

The Taoiseach

I thank the Deputy. A lot of politicians talk out of both sides of their mouths, and the champions among them are those who come in here and express concern about the housing crisis and then go back to their constituencies and oppose housing. We will come back to that-----

(Interruptions).

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

Answer the question.

The Taoiseach

-----on another occasion, and I will now answer the question. Climate change is real. It is happening. It is a clear and present danger. It is man made, and we need to act to reverse it. We have to be the generation that turns the tide when it comes to climate change.

In respect of data centres, over 100,000 people in Ireland work for technology firms. They might not work in data centres, but their jobs would not exist without the existence of data centres. As a result, data centres are important to our economy and for jobs and job creation. While there may not be a moratorium on new data centres, it might be useful for me to advise the Deputy that EirGrid has not approved a new connection since July 2020. It has been nearly three years since a new data centre was given a grid connection. Based on the Government’s policy statement in that regard, applications for new data centres are assessed on a case-by-case basis, taking into account their impact on things such as job creation.

On emissions, far from standing still, our electricity-related carbon emissions went down last year, not up, going in the right direction but by no means fast enough. The solution, when it comes to data centres, is to make sure, first, that they are powered through renewable energy, which is what we are doing, with solar and wind, onshore and offshore, and second, to make sure they have their own back-up generation in order that, in the event we run into an issue with security of supply, far from being a problem, they can be part of the solution by means of generating electricity and selling it into the grid. That is our approach to data centres.

The EU nature restoration law is only a proposal at the moment. Different proposals are being negotiated. I am absolutely convinced that we can agree an EU restoration law that will help us when it comes to reversing biodiversity loss, but I believe it should be realistic. Targets that are set should be realistic, and we should implement an EU restoration law in a way that does not impose obligations on Irish farmers. It is my very strong view that any rewetting of privately owned farmland should be both voluntary and properly remunerated and compensated by the Government and the European Union. Will the Deputy sign up to that?

Deputy Holly Cairns

The Taoiseach commented about there being no new planning applications for data centres. We know there are a few still in the planning stages and a number of others that are still in the construction stages. They are on course to consume at least 30% of our grid capacity by 2030. To give some context on that, the average in other countries is just 2%. It is clear that the Taoiseach recognises the value of growing the economy and also the value of not growing it in that way. We all recognise some of the benefits of data centres. However, what is clear and what is of major concern to me and many other people is that the Government does not seem to recognise the cost of not taking climate action and the impact that will have on the economy. The impact of it is unimaginable. It is the Taoiseach's responsibility to imagine it and act accordingly. Not doing that is unforgivable.

On the nature restoration law, it has already been stated, even by the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, that there are enough State-owned lands, that Bord na Móna and Coillte lands will be used to rewet the bogs and that farmers will only be asked to rewet land on a voluntary basis. There the Taoiseach goes again with the scaremongering. Given all of this information, will he reassure people that the Fine Gael MEPs will support this very important law? If not, will he tell us what the plan is in the face of mass biodiversity crisis and rising emissions?

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

More people want to leave.

The Taoiseach

I am not going to engage in scaremongering; I am just going to give the basic facts. There are different proposals being negotiated at the moment in respect of the EU nature restoration law. There is a proposal before the European Parliament which is very radical. There is a proposal at the European Council on which the Government is currently negotiating. There is also a proposal made by the European Commission. At a certain point, we get to trilogue and we try to reach an agreement between those three different bodies. The position of the Government is very clear. We support an EU nature restoration law. We think it is a good idea. It is about a lot more than rewetting. It is also about urban areas and increased biodiversity in urban and suburban areas. However, we are also very clear on this that we do not support imposing on Irish farmers rewetting obligations that are compulsory.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

Hear, hear.

The Taoiseach

Anything that is done has to be properly remunerated. I would like to see people from rural constituencies like Cork South-West and Wicklow, for example, backing the Government in that regard. I do not see how farmers in Cork South-West, Wicklow or other rural constituencies could possibly believe that the Social Democrats have their backs.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

What the Taoiseach is doing is gaslighting.

Deputy Verona Murphy

The Local Government Reform Act 2014, introduced by the Taoiseach's own party in Government, established the National Oversight and Audit Commission, NOAC, as an independent statutory body, to provide oversight of the local government structure in Ireland. Its functions involve scrutiny of performance generally and financial performance specifically. On 17 January last, the chair of NOAC, Mr. Michael McCarthy, told the Joint Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage:

NOAC does not have a function of providing input to the development of policy for the sector. Furthermore, NOAC has no role in decisions around funding models or levels of funding for local authorities. As prescribed in the Act, NOAC does not apply sanctions, penalties or fines or examine individual cases. Rather, our role is to act as an oversight body. Most of the work of NOAC is carried out through its four working groups. These deal with local government governance, efficiency and reform, performance indicators, communications and customer survey, and financial management and performance.

However, a former member of NOAC stated:

NOAC is a complete joke,as I served on the NOAC Board, it became patently clear that the body had been neutralised from the off through a pincer movement by the Department, who had an assistant-sec on the Commission, and the CCMA, that’s the County & City Managers Assoc, representing the County Managers, who ensured there was No probing, no accountability, and no consequences.

The Taoiseach will have read the recent media reports from RTÉ's Paul Cunningham about the misclassification of employees at Dublin City Council. It is now emerging that a €20 million hole in the Dublin City Council finances will ensue. This may never have come to light were it not for Paul Cunningham, but has clearly been going on for years. Is it not fair to say that the public can have no confidence that local authorities are managing their spend correctly? That spend amounts to €6 billion of taxpayers' money spread across the 31 local authorities annually.

That is €6 billion. The entire structure of the local authorities needs to be reviewed. With a €6 billion spend, the State can ill afford to take a haphazard approach to governance and accountability. Does the Taoiseach agree it is time the responsibility for auditing local authorities was brought under the remit of the Comptroller and Auditor General? Will he tell the House he will ensure action is taken to safeguard the taxpayers' moneys?

The Taoiseach

I thank the Deputy. This is something I will have to discuss with the Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell, and the Minister of Housing, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy O'Brien. Local authorities are principally accountable to their elected members. I believe in local government and do not like to see central government taking over local government. Sometimes that has had to happen and functions have had to be transferred from local government to central government, but it has never been something I have been particularly enthusiastic about, although it has been necessary in some instances. Ultimately, local authorities are accountable to the elected members. We have the National Oversight and Audit Committee, NOAC, which is chaired by former Deputy Michael McCarthy. It is an audit committee and an oversight committee and does valuable work.

I am not sure whether transferring oversight to the Comptroller and Auditor General is a good idea or not. That would bring local government into the realm of the Committee of Public Accounts, which is perhaps what the Deputy would like to see-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Of course.

The Taoiseach

-----but again, that is central government beginning to take over local government and I am not sure that is the right approach. It is something I have an open mind on and something I will discuss with the Minister, Deputy O'Brien and the Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell. Something I think we all agree on is that public money, the people's money, money paid by them in local property taxes and money paid by them in commercial rates, needs to be spent well and in the people's interests. There have been far too many stories of that not happening in counties around the country, unfortunately.

Deputy Verona Murphy

That is true and this is not the first time a local authority has been found wanting when it comes to the administration of its budgets as allocated by the Department of Housing, Heritage and Local Government. There is no oversight of spending and that is because nobody is answerable or accountable for the actions of the authorities. Similar shortcomings have been identified in recent times with Mayo County Council, where unjustifiable claims were made against the Department. NOAC, which is the body that has oversight of local authorities, is not accountable to anybody. Nor does it have the powers to ensure the local authorities are accountable to the taxpayer for the administration of their budgets, so the Taoiseach is dead right that the Committee of Public Accounts is where it is at. The Comptroller and Auditor General is independent of Government, and if the Taoiseach feels €6 billion worth of taxpayers' money is not worthy of the Committee of Public Accounts, I am not sure why we have the committee in the first place.

I again urge the Taoiseach to make local authorities accountable for their budgets. The Accounting Officers of the local authorities must be compelled to explain their actions in a public forum. In this regard, the Taoiseach must move immediately to disband NOAC and bring the local authorities under the remit of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

The Taoiseach

I firmly agree the people's money needs to be spent well, spent efficiently and spent in their interest. That is why it is important that we have audit and oversight functions that work. However, local government is separate from central government. Local government is now enshrined in our Constitution by means of an amendment passed by the public some years ago. While local authorities receive some of their grants directly from central government, they also receive funding from the local property tax, commercial rates-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

It is still taxpayers' money.

The Taoiseach

-----and from their own income. For an Oireachtas committee to start to take oversight of income that is local government income and not central government would have to be thought about, and thought about in depth.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I return to the gallant men and women of our fire services. The Taoiseach should imagine what it would be like if he were bound by restrictions that prevented him from travelling beyond 3 km of his place of work or home without permission and being on call 24-7 for 48 weeks of the year. He should think about the enormous impact this would have on his life and the lives of his loved ones and family. A person would expect such an involvement would be well remunerated. Now imagine the guaranteed income for this life being around €8,000 per year, which is a pittance.

This the reality for our whole-time firefighters, who earn approximately €700 per month which equates to 99 cent per hour. Just imagine that. Would the Taoiseach take on a role that expected him to stay within 3 km of his station for 99 cent an hour? Covid has ended for most of us, thankfully, but they are still living in Covid circumstances, confined to within 3 km of their bases. It is inhuman.

This is before we mention the dangers and risks associated with their very important role. Imagine giving a commitment to that role and being unable to apply for a car loan, mortgage or any other kind of loan because of the need to supplement that income with social welfare. I heard one of our firemen from Nenagh this morning on Tipperary FM saying they are taxed on that as well. It is an outrageous situation. This is the sad reality for the brave men and women of our retained fire service.

The retained firefighters are at the coalface of every human disaster across the State. We met them recently in Bray. I know they provide an ambulance service in Dublin, but outside of Dublin they are called in to assist with cardiac arrests, accidents and everything because the ambulances are not there as they are travelling up and down the country in another failed system.

I do not have to say what our firefighters do. They save so many lives. They put their own lives and those of their families on the line. Imagine today they are forced to go out on industrial action. Some 22 years ago the former Minister Noel Dempsey promised to resolve this. That is how bad it is. Now we have almost 60% saying they will leave in the next two or three years. They are leaving like snow off a ditch because they cannot do this any more, even though they want to do it. They want to serve the people. They want to help their communities and neighbours. They cannot afford to stay. It is devastating on their family lives.

The Taoiseach is telling them to stay in negotiations and says the Government has accepted a report. It has not. The Local Government Management Agency, LGMA, is not engaging in talking. A sum of €50 million will sort this out for these gallant men and women and their families but the Government will not give it to them. The Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, stands up here saying we want to sort it. The Government should get around a table, take out that layer like it has for the HSE, the LGMA. It is saying it does not have the money from the Government and cannot pay them. It is the typical spin here and passing of the buck. Sort out our fire services once and for all, 22 years after those words of the then Minister Noel Dempsey. It is that long ago. It is time they got the respect they deserve.

The Taoiseach

We all acknowledge the way our retained fire services have changed down the years. There is a retainer payment and then there are call-out payments. Due to improvements in fire safety, the number of call-out payments has reduced and that needs to be reflected in changes to their terms and conditions. We acknowledge that as a Government. As I said earlier, an offer has been made which includes a 20% increase in staff with a minimum of 12 firefighters at each station, structured time off, individual flexibility with regard to availability, 50 additional promotional positions around the country and flexibility to attend calls when on scheduled leave if desired. We have a pay deal between the Government and the trade unions which involves pay increases across the board across the year. We have to honour that agreement and the union side has to honour it as well. We expect that to be done. The talks so far have not been successful but they can resume. As I said, these disputes are always resolved in the end and if needs be they can be resolved at the Workplace Relations Commission. That office of government is available to assist should both sides be willing to engage.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

That answer is not satisfactory at all. The elephant in the room here seems to be the LGMA. It says it has not got the money from the Government. Cut out all the other engagements, movements and shapes that are going around. All the stations in Tipperary have staff shortages. We are three officers short in Clonmel and two short in Nenagh. Tipperary town cannot put out its second crew. There are many other small towns like that. Deputy Michael Collins is giving me cases from Skibbereen and places like that where people have to wait an hour to be attended from some other county. It is the same for all of us in rural Ireland and urban Ireland where people wait. People are not called out unless they are needed and they will come in all weathers and at all times. Even during the industrial action there is cover. I acknowledge that. They need to get fair play here. They need not to have the three-way system here where the LGMA is blaming the Government and it is blaming the LGMA and the firefighters. We need to sort this issue. It should not be insurmountable to solve it after 22 years of neglect.

The Taoiseach talks about changes and whatever went on. That is no good to them. He has the figures. Like myself and my colleagues in the Rural Independent Group, I am sure the Taoiseach has met, and has listened to, them. They need to be helped and sorted out. They do not ask often. We ask a good deal of them. Now we are asking that the Taoiseach sits up and listens, engages with them and cuts out the intermediaries that have no money to solve the deal. Some €50 million would solve the problem.

An Ceann Comhairle

I thank the Deputy and call the Taoiseach to conclude.

The Taoiseach

I have not engaged in any blaming. The blame-game has only come from the Opposition benches today on this matter. As I said earlier, we value the work of retained firefighters. They are highly committed people in communities throughout the country who provide an exceptional service. All industrial relations disputes are resolved in the end. They are resolved by negotiations. Government is willing to engage. As is often the case, matters that cannot be resolved have to go to the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, or to the Labour Court, and those offices of government are available to intervene.