Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 27 Jun 2023

Vol. 1040 No. 6

Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate

School Accommodation

Deputy Alan Dillon

I thank the Leas-Cheann Comhairle, and I thank the Ceann Comhairle for selecting this Topical Issue matter. At the outset, I must outline my disappointment that the senior Minister, Deputy Foley, is not available tonight to discuss this matter. The Minister is familiar with the school, which is Davitt College in Castlebar, as she visited it on 15 September last year. I have no doubt that the Minister understands the importance of this project for the school community, its staff and its management. I wish to raise similar concerns with regard to St. Bríd's Special School, also in Castlebar, which the Minister of State, Deputy Madigan, has visited.

I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Byrne, for coming to the Chamber as I outline the deep frustration, anger and disappointment at how these projects are being managed under the school building programme. The reality facing both schools in eight weeks time when students will return for the 2023-24 academic year is that neither school will have sufficient accommodation to house the intake that is due at the end of August. If this transpires, it will be a shambolic reflection of the planning and building unit within the Department of Education. That is the reality of this serious situation.

A commitment was given to Davitt College more than two and half years ago that the accommodation issue would be prioritised to facilitate growth in numbers if the college lifted its enrolment to 170 pupils, which it did. Through the board of management and through the management of the school, it reached that decision. Enrolment notices have now been issued to prospective students for the upcoming academic year. As the Minister of State will be aware, for those who have enrolled there are legal obligations around this. It is the same for St. Bríd's Special School. Both schools have continued to ask the Department for information as to when this promised and committed additional school accommodation will be made available to them, but with no success. The latest update they have received is a request from the Department, which made direct contact with the schools, to source their own alternative accommodation or to reconfigure accommodation that is already in place.

As I said, some time ago Davitt College received approval for seven mainstream classrooms, five special education teaching rooms, an art room, a science room and a participation area, as well as for the reconfiguration of existing rooms for two special classrooms under additional accommodation needs. This is to be delivered by Mayo, Sligo and Leitrim Education and Training Board, ETB, under the Department's devolved reconfiguration and modular accommodation programme. The college has accepted a large number of extra students for the upcoming academic year. St. Bríd's Special School in Castlebar also received a similar request to reconfigure its current accommodation. The school had 14 inquiries for enrolment from September to add to its current unchanged enrolment of 28 pupils. After it was confirmed that it would receive two modular special educational needs classrooms in April, they accepted the enrolment but have since heard nothing on their delivery. The difficulty for both of these schools is that like many schools which are caught in a situation where they have a growing school population, they are still in limbo as to when they will receive their extra modular accommodation. The Government's commitment has not been fulfilled in these instances. How did we get to this point?

What is needed to get these projects developed for the staff and students of Davitt College and St. Bríd's Special School, which were faithfully promised to them by the Department of Education?

Minister of State at the Department of Education (Deputy Thomas Byrne)

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Teachta as an ábhar seo a ardú mar Shaincheist Tráthúil. It gives me the opportunity to respond on behalf of the Minister, Deputy Foley, who cannot be here this evening. I am in the Department under the Minister. I will outline to the House, on behalf of the Minister, the current position in relation to capital projects to deliver replacement and additional accommodation for Davitt College and St. Bríd's Special School under the Department’s reconfiguration and modular accommodation programme.

The school authority of Davitt College, which is Mayo, Sligo and Leitrim ETB, applied to the Department for additional accommodation under the additional school accommodation scheme, ASA. I am pleased to advise that approval under the ASA scheme has issued to the school authority in question for the provision of modular accommodation to provide for seven mainstream classrooms, five special education teaching rooms, an art room, a science room and a preparation area, toilets, and the reconfiguration of existing accommodation for two special education needs classes. The project is devolved for delivery to Mayo, Sligo and Leitrim ETB and is being delivered under the Department’s devolved reconfiguration and modular accommodation programme.

This programme is a new delivery stream under the ASA scheme which provides the services of a project manager to help school authorities with delivery of urgently required school accommodation. The project management support is designed to enable the accommodation to be provided as quickly as possible and helps to ease the administrative workload for school authorities in regard to the management and delivery of projects. The use of the Department's modular accommodation frameworks also helps in ensuring lead-in periods for procurement of modular accommodation are minimised to the greatest extent possible while delivering a turnkey project with efficiency in terms of timelines, experience and tried and tested service with professional design teams and contractors. Projects delivered under the scheme are devolved to school authorities under the terms and conditions of the scheme and it is a matter for schools to progress these projects on that basis, subject to departmental review at various points in the process. Under this programme, the number of stages have been minimised to ensure efficiency of delivery while maintaining the necessary governance structure.

The project manager has already visited the school site and has prepared a viability report to identify the best accommodation solution for submission to the Department for consideration and approval. This has been approved by the Department which has received the school authority’s signed form of acceptance. Thereafter, the school authority in conjunction with the project manager appoints contractors and works start. While the overall construction sector environment is challenging, the Department is working closely with the project management company and the school authority to ensure that this urgently needed accommodation is delivered as quickly as possible.

In regard to St. Bríd’s Special School, approval was granted to the school authority for the provision of accommodation in respect of two special education needs classes. This project is also being delivered under the Department of Education’s devolved reconfiguration and modular accommodation programme. The project manager is working closely with my Department on finalising approval of the viability report to identify the best accommodation solution which takes account of prior engagement with the school authority. Once this has been completed within the coming week, formal approval by the Department will issue to the school authority. It is expected that the school authority will then return the signed form of acceptance and that contractors will be appointed to enable the works to start. My Department will continue to work closely with the project manager to ensure this important project is delivered in the most timely manner possible, notwithstanding the previously mentioned challenging overall construction sector environment.

Deputy Alan Dillon

I thank the Minister of State for the response. He received a script from the officials in the Department of Education which fails to address any of the points I raised. That is not surprising. What I find even more staggering is that it fails even to address any of the engagements that civil servants, at principal or assistant secretary level in the Department of Education, had in calling the school directly and not availing of the devolved arrangements through the Mayo, Sligo and Leitrim Education and Training Board. I find that absolutely appalling. It is alarming for school management to receive a call to say there are issues with the delivery of a project the school believed had been approved and committed to by the Department. Given the importance of this project for the school management, that is an appalling way to treat the school and also Mayo, Sligo and Leitrim Education and Training Board. That needs to be rectified in regard to the script the Minister of State received.

The project management team met on site at Easter and had a conversation in regard to the approval and design of temporary accommodation. It was alarming that the Department thought it would be acceptable to turn temporary accommodation into a permanent solution. The Department needs to take a reality check in this regard.

To ensure the Department and Minister are aware of the matter, I place on record that the GAA pitch at Davitt College will be protected at all costs. The college worked extremely hard to ensure that pitch was available for temporary accommodation only, not as a permanent solution. As the Minister of State can imagine, parents and students are seriously concerned about this matter and the issue with St. Bríd's Special School. There are eight weeks left until the next academic year. What is the alternative if accommodation is not provided to both schools?

Deputy Thomas Byrne

Deputy Dillon can say whatever he wishes. He is right to advocate for his community and for schools. It is very important for Ministers to give the exact response. I cannot just come in here and talk off the top of my head. I need to get the exact position of the Department and that is what I am outlining. That is why the response is always carefully worded in these situations. However, I can assure the Deputy that the Department of Education will continue to look at and employ methods of expediting delivery of the urgently required accommodation, such as project management and modular frameworks, to ensure the required school accommodation is in place for the school year. Officials in the Department will continue to work closely with both the school authorities we have discussed and the assigned project managers to ensure the timely delivery of the accommodation.

Health Services

Deputy Aindrias Moynihan

The census confirmed our ageing population, as we expected. That is no surprise. There is a great need for people who are growing older to be able to remain independent for as long as possible and to live in their own homes with dignity. Day centres are a fundamental part and a key support in providing social interaction, advice and support to both the clients and also to their carers. Unfortunately, there is a big gap in these services around the Macroom area and the Lee Valley, in parishes such as Macroom, Kilmurry, Kilmichael, Aghinagh, Clondrohid and Aghabullogue, and even west of the town, in Ballyvourney and Kilnamartya.

Dementia services are an issue as well. There are more than 55,000 people with various dementia conditions and medical conditions. The Alzheimer Society of Ireland is supporting many families and their carers. In Macroom, we have an ambitious plan to secure dementia-friendly town status and an enthusiastic group is driving that forward. This is in order that people have the chance to live their best lives for as long as possible. A small-scale day-care service is provided on Wednesdays by the Alzheimer Society of Ireland, ASI. The organisation could expand that service if suitable facilities were available. A building on the hospital grounds in Macroom, which is no more than 20 years old, was vacated when the primary care centre was relocated down to the mart area. The Minister of State had the opportunity to see it and he was impressed with the facilities there. He will also have seen that during works on the nearby community hospital, which are at an advanced stage now, some services, including ambulance service, were relocated to this building. There is still a considerable amount of space available in the building to deliver services. It would be a great location to deliver day services and dementia services if the opportunity was available.

For over ten years, the HSE has been talking about and making different preparations to provide day services around the Macroom area. In the meantime, the demand and need continue to grow. The HSE should not wait until the nearby hospital extension is completed. As many efforts as possible should run in parallel to advance those services. I understand that some preparations are under way and plans have been advanced but they have still not moved on to tender stage. In the meantime, the Alzheimer Society of Ireland runs its day services on Wednesdays. If they could be facilitated in that building, it would also provide an opportunity to grow those services locally.

I am conscious of the need to provide services for older people, locally in their community, and to support the services front and centre, those people more so than the HSE, the Alzheimer Society of Ireland or any other organisation. It is the community priority.

Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Mary Butler)

I thank the Deputy for raising this issue. His advocacy is constant in this area. It is not the first time we have spoken about dementia-specific supports in the Macroom area. It is a key priority for the Government to allow more people to engage in services that allow them to remain independent and live in their own homes with dignity and independence for as long as possible. As the Deputy is aware, the HSE has operational responsibility for planning, managing and delivering health and personal social services. A wide range of core services are provided for older people, including home support, day care, community supports in partnership with voluntary groups and intermediate care, as well as long-stay residential care when remaining at home is no longer feasible.

As the Deputy knows and has alluded to, we have an ageing population. We also have the highest life expectancy in the EU, as deemed by the World Health Organization. People want to live at home for as long as possible with the correct wraparound supports. I call it the triangle of supports - home care, day care and meals on wheels. It is hugely important to support people to age in place.

Access to day centres can make an important contribution by providing invaluable support, advice and social interaction for older people who may, for any number of reasons, be experiencing isolation and loneliness. We know that older people have found it hard to reconnect since the Covid pandemic. They find it hard to take that confident step to come back into the community. Older people also benefit from increased physical activity, cognitive stimulation, enhanced nutrition, healthcare monitoring and social work support.

Day centres are also an important indirect resource for carers. While day centres provide a range of services for older people, many HSE day centres offer higher dependency day supports for people living with dementia who need more one-to-one support, including nursing support, and the development of this specialist day centre is based on local population need. Some 30 people per day are diagnosed with dementia. The current figures are that 64,000 people are living with dementia. Having dementia-specific supports in areas is very important. I have a good working relationship with the Alzheimer Society of Ireland. During the Covid pandemic, the opportunity was taken to do a risk assessment of each service in the country, including our day services to make sure they were fit for purpose from infection prevention and control measures. I announced the provision of an additional €3.5 million to support up to 330 day care centres throughout the country. I also secured an additional €2.1 million for dementia-specific community day care services. As I have said, 46 are now up and running in partnership with the Alzheimer Society of Ireland.

To turn to the Deputy's specific point, I visited the campus in Macroom where the community hospital is located. I have seen the works under way, some of which are completed. It is a fantastic facility. However, there is room to do so much more on the campus. Immediately across from that was the former health centre. At that time, the ambulance services were using it. My understanding is that they no longer are, or maybe they are using part of it. There is a huge opportunity here because when we try to put supports in place for people, we have to think outside the box and must utilise every empty building and make them all fit for purpose. I believe this is the plan. The HSE has advised me it is not possible to define a timeline for the day care centre project at this time, as allocation of capital funding is currently awaited. However, the HSE is supportive of it. It is something in which I will take a specific interest. Since I came into this House as Minister of State three years ago, I have often spoken about the postcode lottery. It is important, no matter where you live, that you can access those vital supports.

Deputy Aindrias Moynihan

I thank the Minister of State and acknowledge the huge efforts and the work she has been delivering for dementia services across the country. Through that support, we have been able to get the Wednesday service up and running in Macroom. It could be so much more if it had that opportunity available to it. It is about being able to support families and clients right across that large area of Macroom and the Lee Valley. Building works are currently very advanced on Macroom's new community hospital extension. They should be finishing up towards the end of this year or into the start of next year. It is time to move forward with the plans for the other building. There is plenty of space in there at the moment or there will be in some months' time. The HSE has been making an excuse and we have to acknowledge that it is an excuse. We want it to move on. That will not be there for long more. We really need to make sure capital funding is available and the project can move along and put that service in place. Has the HSE sought capital funding for that project? Is it part of the forthcoming capital programme? If the HSE has asked, how has that request been received? It is vital for it to be put in place in the next capital programme in order that works can advance without further delay. In the meantime, it would be a great opportunity to grow the service that the ASI has been providing on Wednesdays, as it had access to that building. It would all serve to benefit older people and their families across the Lee Valley and Macroom.

Deputy Mary Butler

I thank the Deputy for his articulation of how important this service would be. It is fantastic that there is a Wednesday service. However, I do not believe the service is in the most appropriate setting at present. Especially for people with dementia, it is important they have the stability of a centre that can provide supports for them and to which they can return every week. A lot of people need more than one-day support. It is great to have one day in place. It is a start. We know that service is there. Day support for people with dementia is an invaluable respite for the carer, as they have a few hours' support on that particular day. As I indicated, the HSE has advised that it is not possible to define a timeline for the day care centre project as allocation of capital funding is still awaited. Then, the HSE could progress to the tender phase and once that had been completed, timelines could be set out. I must check whether an application has come in and can revert to the Deputy on that. Now is the time for the application to be submitted as we will be devising the capital plan for 2024. A lot of work will happen during the next six months in that regard. I am supportive of providing this service in that particular area. I believe this can be delivered through working with the Alzheimer Society of Ireland. There is great co-operation between the organisation, the HSE and myself as Minister of State. As I said, there are 46 services now up and running across the country but we still need to do more. Everybody acknowledges that, but I will take a specific interest in whether that request for capital funding has come in. Now is the time to do it. The day I was in the community nursing unit, that beautiful new extension was well under way. That whole campus can offer so much for the people of Macroom and the surrounding areas.

Health Services

Deputy Pat Buckley

I thank the Minister of State for her appearance tonight at this ungodly hour. We are back again talking about the Owenacurra centre. I am delighted this Topical Issue was selected. I have been driven to frustration over the past two years between parliamentary questions and committee meetings. I wrote to the European Ombudsman in October 2022. I wrote that I was contacting her office because I had tried as many avenues as possible, without success, to receive answers about the care of the elderly in our communities. These avenues included the Committee of Public Accounts, the then Committee on Public Petitions, the Sub-Committee on Mental Health, and the Joint Committee on Health. The office of the European Ombudsman replied to me in November 2022 to tell me that the matter did not fall under its writ, because it is a matter for the HSE. A number of weeks ago, the European Ombudsman appeared before the then Committee on Public Petitions and I took the opportunity to raise the issue. I explained that I was not talking about the HSE but about the human rights infringements. I asked the European Ombudsman if she would revisit it. The European Ombudsman, Ms Emily O'Reilly, replied to me on 19 June, to tell me again that it unfortunately does not fall under the remit. She wrote that protecting the rights of persons with disabilities is a priority and that she endeavours to use her mandate as widely as possible to that end but notwithstanding that, as European Ombudsman she must operate within the limits of her mandate.

I am raising this because I have gone down every avenue and have been sent from the Ombudsman to HIQA, from HIQA to the Mental Health Commission and from the Mental Health Commission to the HSE. I have raised numerous Topical Issues and have had numerous interactions back and forth. I remember how the representatives from the HSE appeared before the Committee on Public Petitions to discuss the closure of Owenacurra. During that meeting, I raised concerns from families of residents there. I mentioned the word "coercion" and the HSE would not accept it. I mentioned the word "misleading" and the HSE would not accept it. This was about respecting the wishes of the residents who were there. According to minutes of a special meeting of the HSE safety and quality committee on 8 February 2023, the committee raised concerns regarding placement at St. Stephen's Hospital in Glanmire and St. Catherine's Ward at St. Finbarr's Hospital. The minutes noted that these centres have received lower inspection compliance ratings from the Mental Health Commission than the Owenacurra centre. The minutes also noted that "concerns were expressed that these environments are congregated settings that are campus-based, isolated, away from the community in contravention of the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, Government policy, and HSE policy." It was stated that at the time, Government policy and HSE policy was to move away from congregated settings. This information is in the public domain. The minutes also noted "some members of the Committee expressed dissatisfaction with the need to transfer the residents away from the Midleton area contrary to their expressed wishes".

The HSE has acknowledged it in the last meeting yet I am black and blue from the past two years bringing this up in various committees and parliamentary questions. At the most recent meeting of the HSE, it has now clarified that the members of its safety and quality committee have said what I have been saying all along. Who do I get answers from because I have gone everywhere? I have gone to the European Court of Justice on this and have been waiting for a response for six months. This is how bad it is. If the Minister of State can be of any assistance in getting justice for these people, I would appreciate it.

Deputy Mary Butler

I thank the Deputy for raising this matter again and for his constant advocacy for the residents of Owenacurra and the six people who still live in Owenacurra. It is their home from home. I thank him for always being so respectful when he speaks about this. The independent regulator, the Mental Health Commission, in inspection reports found that the premises at Owenacurra was not up to the required standard. Following advice from construction experts and the fire officer, the HSE took the difficult but necessary decision to close the centre in a co-ordinated, resident-centred way. The service continues to mitigate the risks associated with the current building. As the Deputy is aware, the kitchen was closed down and any food was brought in because that was one of the main issues.

The HSE informed residents and their families in June 2021 of the decision to relocate services from the Owenacurra centre. Here we are in June 2023 and we still have six residents living in their home. Am I satisfied with the pace of this? No, I am not. I cannot believe I am back in here two years later still discussing the same issue. Residents will not be moved until appropriate placements have been found for each person. The expression "will and preference" have been used a lot but they have been respected. It will be based on their individually assessed needs and their will and preference. The HSE priority is to ensure that the most optimal placements are progressed for the six remaining residents. Meetings have taken place with families and residents and engagement continues with all residents to offer support and assurances.

I have, through the Department of Health, provided the HSE with €500,000 capital funding to assist with the reconfiguration of services associated with the Owenacurra premises. This has ensured that the HSE has purchased a property in Midleton that will be a community residence for mental health services. In the longer term, which was announced in the capital plan recently, the HSE will provide a new ten-bed rehabilitative residential unit in Midleton town. Both the Government and the HSE value the regulation of our mental health services as it provides a framework in which to constantly review and improve our services, so they remain person-centred.

I will talk about the 13 former residents in a high-level way so as not to identify anyone. The HSE advised me that following assessment of residents' needs and engagement regarding residents' will and preference, 13 residents left Owenacurra and have been accommodated at home with community supports, in nursing homes, in mental health high-support hostels and mental health services residential units.

I also met with the new mental health lead in CHO4 in the past few weeks and the mental health team in the area to discuss Owenacurra and other mental health issues in CHO4. I thought it was really important. I did express my concern that this is taking a long time and Owenacurra is still open with six residents. I am glad to see there is progress regarding one property and my understanding is that a second property is being considered because these people were given a guarantee that they would get to live in Midleton. They are embedded in the community and it was important that this would be respected.

Neither I nor the HSE has received correspondence from the European Ombudsman regarding Owenacurra. The European Ombudsman can investigate complaints about institutions, bodies and agencies of the EU but cannot investigate complaints against national, regional or local administrations, including the HSE. The Office of the Ombudsman can, however, examine complaints about the HSE.

Deputy Pat Buckley

I appreciate the response. I am well aware of the three beds and the possible ten beds but we had 22 beds there so we are basically halving the service. It is not what was there before but that is for another day. I was raising the concerns of residents and families. I got information from the residents that people were coerced. The Minister said people were relocated. According to minutes of a special meeting of the HSE safety and quality committee on 8 February 2023, "some members of the Committee expressed dissatisfaction with the need to transfer the residents away from the Midleton area contrary to their expressed wishes" so it was not a smooth transaction for some of the people and I feel we have let them down. They did not have options so this is certainly an infringement of their civil liberties. Taking them from a place that is more compliant and putting them in a place that is less compliant is moving in the opposite direction to the model in Sláintecare, which is an integrated service. Moving them into the middle of nowhere instead of Sarsfield Court is bonkers.

While I welcome aspects of the Minister of State's response, how much would it have cost to keep those services and how much will it cost now to halve the services? We will not even have the additional services that go with it. I do not know what is happening with the day care services there. The dental services have the community hospital service and the doctor's service across the road. To make it worse, this is a precursor because a number of other HIQA reports are coming down the line that mention St. Brigid's in Tipperary, where we will be fighting the same battle; St. Brigid's in Portlaoise; and another one in Clifden. I am raising the flag to say there is no oversight in the HSE, which seems to have free rein. When you have committee members saying at a meeting "yeah lads, we fecked up on this and we probably fecked up on that but are we going to bury it?", how do I get an answer to prove that I told you so? I am getting the runaround again. It is very frustrating.

Deputy Mary Butler

I understand the Deputy's frustration but he must think back to two years ago when I was informed by the fire office in County Cork that the building was not fit for purpose and was a danger to the residents. At that time, two or three reports were commissioned. We do not have that type of reduction in beds referred to by the Deputy. It is really good news that we are going to have this new ten-bed unit there. The current outline plan is very ambitious with a goal of commencing building on quarter one of 2024 - so this is not too far away - with a view to the completion of the unit in quarter one of 2025. My plan is that there will be two community homes in Midleton where those six residents will have those supports. They will also have wraparound supports. The Deputy said that the residents' will and preference might not always have been adhered to but the Mental Health Commission had a role to play here.

Deputy Pat Buckley

The Mental Health Commission never mentioned the closure of the facility.

Deputy Mary Butler

The Mental Health Commission, as an independent statutory body, had a role to play here.

Deputy Pat Buckley

I understand that.

Deputy Mary Butler

Its role was to be involved. It was kept updated on every occasion when one of the residents was moved.

We must get to the stage where the last six residents will get their forever home. It will be located within Midleton where a new ten-bed unit will be built which will be very important.

I know for a fact that in some instances, residents were moved from Owenacurra who now live in nursing home care and their families are happier because they do not have the stigma-----

Deputy Pat Buckley

Absolutely.

Deputy Mary Butler

-----about being in a mental health facility. I want to ensure that this transition is smooth for the six residents who remain there. I thank the Deputy again for his interest in this matter.

Deputy Pat Buckley

I thank the Minister of State for her time.

Cuireadh an Dáil ar athló ar 11.51 p.m. go dtí 9.12 a.m., Dé Céadaoin, an 28 Meitheamh 2023.

The Dáil adjourned at 11.51 p.m. until 9.12 a.m. on Wednesday, 28 June 2023.