Vol. 1044 No. 3
78. Deputy Mairéad Farrell asked the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science the current number of apprentices waiting for off-the-job training at levels 2, 4 and 6 in addition to the numbers waiting for such training in 2022; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [45695/23]
I have put this parliamentary question in since the start of September and have not got the kind of response I was looking for. It relates to the number of apprentices waiting for off-the-job training at levels 2, 4 and 6. I have sought a tabular breakdown, which I obviously will not get in oral questions. Will the Minister of State clarify why I cannot get that as a response at all?
I hope the reply will be of use to the Deputy. The Department has placed an unrelenting focus on the area of apprenticeships. One of the first actions the Minister, Deputy Harris, and I took was to publish a dedicated action plan for apprenticeships to drive this important reform. The impact has been clear. The growth in apprenticeships in recent years has been significant. Since 2021, more than 22,000 people have started their journey as apprentices. Craft apprenticeship registrations for 2022 and 2021 were in total 13,254, an increase of almost 40% on the preceding two years.
This increased demand has posed challenges for the system at a time it has been dealing with the impact of Covid-19. At the end of September, 5,345 apprentices were waiting longer than six months to access off-the-job training. Of those, 5,194 were at phase 2, while the remainder were at phases 4 and 6.
In budget 2024, we have received a €67 million investment in the apprenticeship system. This will enable growth in the craft apprenticeship training system from 13,000 in 2022 to more than 16,000 places in 2024. That represents an increase of almost 25%. This will allow SOLAS, the National Apprenticeship Office, NAO, and the education and training boards, ETBs, together with staff representatives, to work intensively with our Department to deliver the required additional apprenticeship training capacity to ensure the reductions waiting times, in particular for phase 2 training. The Department holds weekly meetings with stakeholders in the area and the Minister and I will meet SOLAS and the NAO again next week to discuss the impact of the budget investment.
I still do not understand why I could not get the response in writing at the start of September. I have never seen it happen before that I have not been able to get a response when I have continually asked the exact same question and the exact same response was given. It really annoyed me. The Ministers have taken their eye off the ball. The response I got after much pestering was that 7,500 were waiting. That is a significant number of people. We were just discussing student accommodation and we are aware of the housing crisis in general, not to mention the impact it is having on these people’s lives. The eye was taken off the ball and I could not get a response because nobody wanted to admit it. That is my reading of the situation.
We will send the numbers to the Deputy afterwards. At the end of September 2023, 8,757 apprentices were waiting to access off-the-job training, of which 5,345 were waiting longer than six months. At phase 2, there were 7,096 apprentices, of which 5,194 were waiting longer than six months. At phases 4 and 6, there were 1,161 apprentices, of which 51 were waiting longer than six months. I do not accept we have taken the eye off the ball. SOLAS and the NAO are leading on developing a series of options, which will significantly reduce the backlog by the end of 2024. This work has been the output of activities and stakeholder engagements that occurred at an intensive pace on the ground between July and September this year. The options are focused on increasing the capacity of the education and training boards by 3,000 places in phase 2 and delivering apprenticeships supported by other initiatives such as the temporary and emergency delivery of approximately 600 places in phase 2. We will send the Deputy the follow-on on that.
I look forward to reading it in detail. Obviously, the Minister of State will not say to me on the floor of the Dáil that he took his eye off the ball. I am aware he will not do that and that he is trying to fix the issue, but how did we get to this point where he is saying the number was more than 8,000 at the end of September? The response I got was from the start of September. This is really important. I know the Minister of State knows that but the eye has to have been taken off the ball. I do not see what else could have happened leading to so many people waiting. When we talk of increasing capacity in housing, the first thing the Government constantly says is we need workers who are able to do it. We have people who want to do it but cannot. They cannot access the training they need to complete their apprenticeships. I do not see how the Minister of State can say he did not take his eye off the ball.
The training of apprentices is important and must be done in a timely manner. There has been a hugely positive reaction to the level of apprentices going into the system and the expansion of apprenticeships but I concur with the Deputy that if we do not have the processes right for people to get qualified in a timely manner, the good work being done will be in vain. Young people get demoralised by having to wait. They are not moving up the scale from phase 2 to phase 3 or getting the increment in their pay. They see this as holding them back when they want to get out there. It is timely to discuss a review to make sure that, as well as having the policies and input right, we get people through the system in a timely fashion and maximise the number of people in apprenticeships.
I recognise and acknowledge the concerns raised by the Deputies. Suffice it to say the eye was not taken off the ball on this. It has been a continual focus within our Department. At the same time, we have to protect the quality of training provided and we had to build capacity to deal with the backlog. The backlog has dropped since 2021 from in excess of 11,000 to approximately 7,500. The will and resources are there to eliminate that backlog by the end of next year. It is a high priority for us. We, of course, recognise it but we have to engage with the stakeholders who provide the training, their staff and the representative organisations of the staff. We cannot flick a switch and double or triple capacity. There has to be a consultation process to ensure the quality of training provided to apprentices meets the required standard.
80. Deputy Mairéad Farrell asked the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science if he will provide an update on his efforts to increase the number of graduate entry medicine places; the reason he has not tried to reduce fees as a means to attract more applicants; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [45694/23]
I would be interested to hear an update on the efforts to increase the number of graduate entry medicine places. Maybe it is my age but more people I know are going into graduate entry medicine than before. What are the efforts to increase the number of such places and the reasons for not reducing the fees to attract more applicants and from more diverse backgrounds?
There are two main factors driving my approach to addressing issues with medical education: ensuring we produce enough doctors to meet the requirements of our healthcare system and our society and providing more places for students in a context where the level of demand has consistently exceeded the number of places available.
It was encouraging this year that, for the first time in a long number of years, when the CAO offers came out for undergraduate medicine, we saw a fall in the points required.
Last year, the Minister for Health and I announced an agreement with Irish medical schools to increase the number of places available for EU students by 200 over the next five years. This began with an additional 16 students in September 22, climbing to 122 in September 2023 and to 200 by 2026. This agreement included additional graduate entry medicine places. To date, an additional ten graduate entry places, with five in 2022 and another five in 2023, have been created, while the other 110 places were on direct entry programmes. The Deputy will also be aware of the work we are doing on an all-island basis. From next September, we are enabling access to medical education on an all-island basis through the work we have done with the University of Ulster in Derry and Queen's University in Belfast.
As the Deputy knows, the free fees initiative pays the tuition fees of eligible students undertaking their first full-time undergraduate programme. The free fees initiative does not meet fees in respect of students who are completing a second undergraduate degree. For better or worse, that is currently how the graduate entry medicine programme is classified. However, unlike for other second undergraduate degree programmes, the State provides a subsidy to institutions towards the cost of provision. The tuition fees payable by students are determined by the higher education institutions, taking the availability of this subsidy into account. In the academic year 2022-23, the State contribution was €12,100 per student, the balance of fees being payable by the student. This State subsidy is now being increased incrementally. The State contribution for graduate entry medicine places this year is €14,500.
Regarding funding for graduate entry medicine, Department is also working with the Department of Health on these matters. I am sympathetic to and supportive of the case being put forward by graduate entry medical students. We need to find a way that works and does not have unintended knock-on consequences because the policy direction has always been that we have the free fees initiative for one undergraduate degree programme. We need to tease our way through that. I have given a commitment to meet graduate entry medicine students in the coming weeks.
I thank the Minister. I am not harassing the poor souls who write responses to parliamentary questions but I am a little bit confused. I submitted a parliamentary question on this issue because I am confused about the current approach.
The response to a parliamentary question I received from the Department stated: "The State contribution was €11,950 per student with the balance of fees payable by the student." Different colleges have different fees. In UCD, for example, students pay fees of just under €17,000. Taking what the Minister has told me and what was stated in the response to the parliamentary question to which I refer, surely the balance should be €5,000. That is clearly not how the system works because that is not what is happening. When it was first introduced, the purpose of graduate entry medicine was to open up the discipline to those people who would not traditionally have had the ability to study medicine. We also need more doctors to be trained.
On that, we have to be honest. The graduate medical entry programme was introduced to try to diversify the medical profession. We also have to be truthful that in recent years we have seen points for undergraduate medicine places skyrocket to the point that accessing those courses became prohibitive for many. People could achieve the best points possible in the leaving certificate and still only go into a random selection lottery for a place. We have tried to break that cycle via a very significant increase in undergraduate medicine places. The all-island approach coming next year will help further, with additional places in this jurisdiction. That has seen the points for undergraduate medicine places fall.
The Deputy is right to be slightly confused because it is a little bit confusing. The answer to the parliamentary question is entirely correct. Universities set the fees, as they do for any second undergraduate degree or postgraduate programme. The State makes a contribution towards the cost. We have increased the subsidy we are providing. Universities have not reduced their part of the fee. That is a matter for them. The fact is that the State subsidised these courses by €11,950 between 2021 and 2022 and the figure is now €15,500 for new graduate entry medicine places from this year.
That confuses me in a different kind of way. I am not suggesting that the Minister is not outlining the facts but if the money coming from Government for fees is increasing, surely there should be some kind of conditionality that the fees charged to students decrease. It is my understanding that the fees will increase again next year. That is what students have told me.
The reality is that the cost of these fees has a corrosive effect on diversity in the medical vocation. The cost of fees continues to make medicine and the studying of medicine a privilege. It is, of course, a privilege but it should not be something that is almost an elitist privilege rather than something that should be available to everybody. There are more people studying medicine now but older people are trying to study medicine and find it-----
Does Deputy Durkan want to come in?
No, I am happy so far.
With my questioning. I thank the Deputy.
I hope he is happy with my answers. I agree with the Deputy's point that we do not want people who want to access the medical profession to reach barriers and blocks that mean we cannot diversify the profession. I know, as a former Minister for Health, how important diversification in medicine is.
When we talk those most in need, as recently as last year we extended the 1916 bursary to general entry medicine students. For the first time, the most financially disadvantaged students can use the 1916 bursary for graduate entry medicine. That was an indication of how we wanted to make progress in diversification.
In defence of the institutions, if that is the right phrase, we have examined how to properly and sustainably fund medical education in Ireland. Everyone would think that the model had been too tilted in favour of international students rather than providing opportunities for Irish and EU students. That was probably because of financial holes in funding over many years in universities. We have seen a conversion of many international places and we are increasing the funding provided. As part of that, we are increasing the subsidy. I want to do more to help our graduate entry medicine students. I will meet them in the coming week. We will tease through some of the issues and see what practical steps we can take to help them.
84. Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett asked the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science his plans to address the sharp increase to 15% in undergraduate drop-out rate; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [45701/23]
The dropout rates for undergraduate students have jumped very significantly in recent times. The rate is now up to 15%, a shockingly high figure. For example, the number who dropped out in first year across higher education was up to 5,000, an increase from 9% to 12%. There are a range of reasons for this, including the cost of accommodation, transport, having to travel long distances, mental health, the impact of the pandemic and the lack of mental health support for students. What is the Minister going to do to try to address this very worrying increases in dropout rates for undergraduate students?
Dropout rates often do not factor in those who may have moved from one course to another within an institution. That is important to say because many of us will know somebody who might have started one degree or area of study and moved to another. The Deputy is right to highlight this issue.
Ensuring that students succeed and thrive in their higher educational journey is an important issue for me and my Department. The HEA publishes data on the proportion of students who do not progress from the first to the second year of higher education. The latest figures published by the HEA relate to students who commenced in 2020-21 and consider progression to the 2021-22 academic year. Over the past decade, the data showed a gradual downward trend in non-progression rates from 16% for new entrants in 2010-11 to 12%, which is the figure the Deputy referenced, for 2020-21.
However, the figures are a little skewed because, as he pointed out, the figure dropped to 9% for 2019-20. However, this was heavily impacted by the exceptional circumstances caused by the Covid pandemic. The non-progression rate subsequently reverted to the pre-pandemic level of 12% percent. In 2010-11, approximately 16% of students did not progress. That dropped to approximately 12%. It dropped to 9% for brief period and is now back at 12%, but that is still down from 16%.
However, my Department is aware of some reporting regarding an increase in student withdrawals. The latest data and analysis are not yet available to me. My understanding is that the figures on progression rates are scheduled to be released by the HEA in the first quarter of 2024.
It is important to say that where a student withdraws from third level education, it can be for a variety of reasons. Changes in the progression rates are rarely influenced by any one single factor. In fairness, as the Deputy acknowledged, in budget 2024, I have sought to try to support students by reducing the fees, increasing grants, extending the rental tax credit and securing an additional €60 million in core funding for universities.
This means more academic tutors, guidance, medical assistance, mental health supports and counselling and other support services that could be vital to many students.
Someone does not need to be a rocket scientist to work out why people are dropping out of college. Of course, if people were actually studying to be a rocket scientist they would be living on less than the living income, as we know from our PhD students, but we have covered that ground. The Minister mentioned the increase in core funding. The Government accepted that there was a shortfall of €307 million in core funding but only provided €60 million in the budget. This is very significantly short of what is necessary. That puts pressure on the services that should be provided by third level institutions, such as counselling and others. That also puts pressure on the institutions to jack up the rents to ridiculous levels. Some of the rents being charged by universities for their own accommodation are off the charts for most students. Accommodation is a major issue. What has been done to actually increase the delivery of more affordable student accommodation, properly funding the universities and services such as counselling?
The Deputy will have an opportunity to come back in
To use the Deputy's phrase, I am not in any way buying into the thesis that "jacking up" rents needs to happen in any university. The Deputy will have to agree with me on this point because it is a fact. Universities have seen an increase in their budgets this coming year compared to last year and last year compared to the year before. There is no excuse and that should not be used as a fig leaf. In fact, a number of universities are reducing the cost of student accommodation. The University of Galway is one example where they have reduced the cost of the majority of the housing. I take the point that not all are but if anyone is using that as an excuse, that should be called out for the codology it is.
Let us talk about these figures because there are a lot of figures floating around. Many years ago, the Cassells report said that the higher education sector needed €1 billion extra. When I became Minister, we got the European Commission and Indecon to do an up-to-date report as to where we stood. The figure of €1 billion had become €307 million. It is a fact that we need to inject €307 million more into our higher education system to be at a sustainable level of funding that will get us to better student-staff ratios. In this year's budget, we put in €60 million more, along with €40 million last year. We have also given €35 million for pay and more than €50 million for university pensions so we are making real progress. Nobody said that we would put in the €307 million in one budget; that is not realistic.
I certainly agree that there is no excuse for universities jacking up rents to unaffordable levels. I was simply pointing out that if they are underfunded, they start to look for ways to increase revenue. They start to operate more like businesses and less like institutes of higher education. However, it is no excuse and the rents are often pushed down because students actually get out and protest about it. I commend the students who have done so recently.
There is a massive shortfall in the availability of affordable student accommodation. What is the Minister planning to do about this? The Union of Students of Ireland, USI, has asked for 30,000 additional affordable student beds by 2029. Is the Minister going to meet that demand? That is the sort of scale that is necessary. To refer to my earlier point, in a choice between hundreds of millions of euro going into research and development tax breaks for some of the richest companies in the world or giving it to our universities to fund them properly, I know which one I would choose
I also know which one the Deputy would choose.
Will the Minister indicate the three most commonly identified causes for dropouts from higher education? To what extent is it possible to address the issue in the context of providing graduates in the future?
There is no list as such but we are doing a more in-depth dive into the data now. I think it can be for a variety of reasons, be they personal, health or cost. As a Government, we need to better understand the reasons but also recognise that sometimes people will choose to change and move to different courses. It is also important to bear this in mind when trying to improve a tertiary education system.
To address Deputy Boyd Barrett's point, rents were also often kept down in universities because we extended the rent pressure zones to our universities. That has been of significant assistance in keeping rents a lot lower than they would have actually been. Sometimes when the Deputy talks about investment in universities, one would swear the investment is going in the wrong direction. Last year, our universities got permission to be able to permanently recruit 1,500 more staff. Last year was the first in many years where we saw an improvement in the student-staff ratio. They have €60 million more next year to build on that.
Regarding student accommodation, I am meeting USI next week. We have projects under way in DCU, Maynooth, University of Limerick and the University of Galway. I want to work with UCD and Trinity to get them over the line and will publish a new student accommodation strategy by the end of the year.
83. Deputy Colm Burke asked the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science to confirm the number of students who will benefit from measures aimed at those in further and higher education in budget 2024; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [45740/23]
Will the Minister confirm the number of students who will benefit from measures in budget 2024 aimed at those in further and higher education, particularly in the area of apprenticeships?
Budget 2024 introduced what is, by any fair and objective measure, a significant package of supports for third level students and their families. I will take each measure in turn.
It is estimated that 94,000 students will benefit from the €1,000 reduction in the student contribution fee. Almost 52,000 students will benefit from the student grant increases. A total of 1,790 postgraduate students will benefit from the reintroduction in postgraduate supports. Some 24,000 students are expected to benefit from the removal of the PLC fees. Some 11,000 apprentices in higher education will benefit from the one-third reduction in the apprenticeship student contribution fee. Furthermore, 3,000 PhD researchers will benefit from a €3,000 increase to the PhD stipends provided by Science Foundation Ireland and the Irish Research Council.
To put that in context, contrary to the air of negativity sometimes surrounding the issue, more than 185,000 students and their families will receive support as a result of budget 2024. They will have real money in their pockets and a real reduction in their bills and in the cost of education as a result of our budget. That includes targeting supports to those who are most in need through the student grant scheme and it also includes universal support, recognising that everybody needs a bit of help, including those who may not qualify for student grants.
We are also doing more. We are increasing the student assistance fund, which will benefit all students in need of supports. This brings the allocation for this academic year to more €17.6 million.
I am most excited about the fact that from September, we will have a new part-time fees scheme. For the very first time, we will have fee support for part-time students, including those studying online. Let us take a hypothetical mother raising two kids on her own, holding down a job and trying to pay a mortgage or pay the rent who has always wanted to go to college but is only able to do it part-time and has been hit with a wall of large fees. Now if her household income is below €56,000 per year, she will have those fees paid for by the Government. These are some of the measures we have put in place.
There is a substantial amount available to increase the number of apprenticeships in various areas. The Minister now needs to look at increasing the number of places in our third level institutions for key areas such as healthcare and others. Taking dentistry as an example, in some colleges up to 50% of the places are taken by students from abroad because the colleges are trying to get money in. How can the number of places in universities be increased rather than them being reliant on students coming from abroad to make up the cost of running particular faculties? This applies to radiotherapy, medicine, nursing and other areas that need to be expanded. I remind the Minister that the population has increased by 1.5 million or 40%, and therefore, the number of the training places in each of these areas needs to increase by 40% as well.
I could not agree more. That is exactly what we are trying to do. Yes, we need to increase the size of the tertiary education system and we are doing so year-on-year. However, we also need to increase it specifically in areas where we know there is one of two things - a need for more people to work in that area from a public services point of view or a demand for more students to study in the area that is not being currently met. Throughout 2023 we have done a number of exercises in respect of healthcare and veterinary medicine where we have asked the education system what more it can do on nursing, medicine, therapy places and dentistry.
We are working with the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform and the line Minister, the Minister for Health, to see how we can fund that in the context of the NDP capital review. Next year we will do further work on other key areas. We will also work to ensure all institutions on the island of Ireland are helping to contribute to the skills needs of our island. That is why we now have ring-fenced a number of healthcare places in Queens University and the University of Ulster.
Is there enough joined-up thinking between education and placement in workplaces? As with getting apprentices the required training, people doing degree or diploma courses need to get placement in the workplace at the same time as studying and as part of an overall package, rather than it just being purely academic or purely focused on the college itself.
I am glad the Deputy raised that because that is what the review has done. People often ask me to create another college place in X area. For some courses that is relatively easy to do. However, in a course with a clinical or work placement element, there is no ability to create the place without the matching work place. We have worked jointly with the Department of Health. We have identified what we can do from a university point of view and asked the Department of Health to identify the work placements. We have married the two and now we are progressing it. This is not all an exercise for the future. We have increased the number of medicine places by 60 last year and a further 60 this year. We have several hundred more nursing places and more therapy places, including in the North. We are actively on this journey. We want to make more progress on veterinary medicine. The Deputy has raised radiation therapy with me regularly and I will follow up directly with him on that.
85. Deputy Alan Dillon asked the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science if the SUSI grant will be amended to cover part-time students; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [45527/23]
I acknowledge the efforts of the Minister, Deputy Harris, and the Minister of State, Deputy Niall Collins, in delivering for further and higher education in the budget. I have received several questions on the availability of supports for part-time students who cannot access SUSI grants. It is crucial to address this to ensure inclusivity, accessibility and equal educational chances for all. Many individuals are unable to pursue full-time education due to various factors. What can the Government do in this regard?
I thank the Deputy for raising this important question. I have been consistent in my position that we need to develop an education system that is more flexible and agile than the one we inherited. We need to recognise that learners come to education at different stages of their life and career and need access in a way that works for them. For many that will be part-time learning, some in person and some online. Increasingly we will have students in work as opposed to people straight out of school.
One of the overriding priorities in the budget has been reducing child poverty. Of course, child poverty can be reduced in a number of ways and income support is probably the quickest short-term way. However, to really break intergenerational poverty, access to education has the greatest power to transform lives, lift people out of poverty and break down the cycles of intergenerational poverty.
The fees associated with part-time programmes can be a real barrier to higher education access and I wanted to expand supports to part-time students in the budget. Therefore, I was very pleased to announce, as part of the tertiary education package from September 2024, a part-time fee grant scheme to provide support for eligible students who are undertaking undergraduate part-time programmes leading to a major award, whether in-person, blended or online. This scheme will mean fees for these courses will be abolished for eligible students whose household earnings are less than €55,924. The support and added flexibility will benefit many but particularly low-income families. The scheme will be administered through SUSI. The fees represent too big a barrier for too many people. The scheme will be developed in detail by my Department in the weeks ahead. The Department will engage in further discussions with key stakeholders and will outline the full details of the new scheme and how to apply early next year.
The Atlantic Technological University in the Deputy's constituency has been a leader in part-time education for many years. It has offered part-time courses to students. The scheme will mean that more students, including more students from diverse backgrounds, can access those part-time courses from September.
It is very positive to hear of this additional part-time fee-support scheme, which will be an enormous boost for those who wish to enter part-time education while juggling work and family commitments. These additional grants will help with the expenses of textbooks, course supplies and other academic resources which play a crucial role. It is important that the Minister is backing part-time education. Many of the universities, technical universities and colleges are establishing part-time courses to meet the needs of the local enterprise plans and industries in their regions. Supporting part-time students will allow them to blend their academic commitments with their family obligations, etc. This will be versatile education and address the requirements in further and higher education.
I thank the Deputy for his support for the scheme. This scheme will help people who can now access degree programmes outside the CAO process. I was recently in the Atlantic Technological University in the Deputy's part of the country. I met nursing students doing the new tertiary nursing degree. These students had been assessed for eligibility for the programme not based on their leaving certificate points but based on an interview and other assessments of their aptitude. That means students who might have had to go to the UK to study are doing nursing courses in the north west. We have enough challenges with staffing our own health service without staffing the British NHS. That is a really important development. More part-time and online education will remove the barriers for more people.
With the technological universities taking education into the regions, the degree courses available outside the dreaded points race and removing fees for anybody doing part-time or online education, starting with those most in need, those with a household income of just below €56,000, it gives us a real platform on which to build. We will build on it in the years ahead by continuing to reduce fees and increase grants. In the years ahead we will consider how we can incorporate maintenance grants as part of the free fees initiative for part-time courses.
In his opening response, the Minister spoke about broadening the access to education for families who may be impacted by poverty, etc. This is a very worthwhile scheme. Broadening the support to part-time learners underscores the importance of continuous education. It is crucial that we continue to nurture our flexible workforce which is vital for our economic advancement and also for innovation and how we support our talent and knowledge economy.
Are the grants capped at a certain level? Is the ceiling of €56,000 for a household or for an individual?
The full eligibility for the scheme will be worked out and published early in the new year. The €56,000 limit is for a household. It is linked to the income ceiling to qualify for the SUSI contribution. We are trying to align part-time and full-time education. Clearly that number could move up in future budgets if that is the wish of Government and the Oireachtas. When the Taoiseach asked us to focus on child well-being and child poverty, it made sense to start at lower income levels, where we are most likely to capture those most in need. I gave consideration to trying to define certain groupings, such as parents, carers and people with disabilities, but then we would need to justify having one group and not another group. We are trying to ensure everyone can access education and that cost is not a barrier to anyone. I thought that the income threshold was an important place to start. There will be rules for the scheme. It will have to lead to a major award at level 6, 7 or 8. It will need to be done part time and can be online, blended or in person. There will be a set number of years in which to do it. The fee per module that would have been paid by the student will be met by the State.
86. Deputy Mairéad Farrell asked the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science further to the announcement of the significant funding that Magee University would receive from the shared island initiative to expand its capacity, if he will provide details of the nature of the arrangement; the way it will work in practice; the benefits it will bring in terms of workforce planning; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [45696/23]
In recent weeks I have met students in the North. I ask the Minister to provide more detail, as per the question.
I really want to work with the Deputy and other Members of the Oireachtas on student mobility on the island of Ireland. The Deputy probably saw the ESRI report. We can do so much more on this. Perhaps we can return to it another day. We can all do good work together on this.
Following a Government decision in June, my Department is responsible for management of the implementation of this very exciting project relating to the Magee campus of Ulster University. It will see the construction of a new teaching block in the University of Ulster's Derry campus. The estimated cost is £45 million over a four-to-five-year timescale. Ulster University, UU, has committed to providing 15% of that cost, while the Department of the Taoiseach has committed to funding the balance, up to a limit of €44 million, from the shared island fund. As the project progresses over that time, moneys from that fund will be transferred into my Department's Vote. Officials in my Department are working with the senior management team in Ulster University, as well as officials in the Department for the Economy in Northern Ireland, to establish an appropriate framework to oversee the delivery of this complex cross-Border capital project. I will visit both Belfast and Derry before the end of the year.
The positive collaboration with Ulster University arising from this project has now led to further opportunities for collaboration outside of the shared island initiative. Specifically, a separate opportunity across the healthcare domain has now arisen, which has allowed me to secure additional places in Ulster University and Queen's University Belfast in key therapies and nursing for students from this jurisdiction. It is important to note that these places are funded by both my Department and the Department of Health. I am pleased to be able to confirm to the Deputy today, fresh off the presses, that we will see further college places ring-fenced for therapies students this year, and we believe we will be able to increase the number of places in this academic year. We intend to go further next year with medicine places ring-fenced for students from Ireland.
The Magee campus provides us with a huge opportunity. Magee now has a medical school. Derry has been underserved as regards education for so many years. We know that. It is a city larger than other cities on this island which have had much smaller student populations. Expanding the campus provides real opportunities for north-west collaboration. I was in Letterkenny recently and I know that the people there are very excited about the opportunities for Atlantic Technological University and Magee to interlock and work together on a cross-Border basis.
That is interesting. What additionality does that new teaching block entail? I would be interested to hear about that. I am from Galway, and anytime I am in Derry I always think they are very similar cities. The benefit a strong university town can have for everybody across the city is really powerful. I therefore welcome this funding and the expansion in the form of the new teaching block. I would be interested to hear, though, exactly how that will work out and what it will entail.
I agree 100% with the Minister that it would be really good if we could work together to try to look at the student mobility issue. We know the difficulties with the differences between the CAO and the Universities and Colleges Admissions Service, UCAS, and schools not knowing them and not being able to explain them to their students. Then there is a massive issue now whereby people are expected to have four A-level subjects.
The Deputy is entirely right. I really welcome the fact that Universities Ireland has now set up a group specifically to look at what I call CAO reform. It is chaired by the excellent Professor Pól Ó Dochartaigh from the Deputy's parish, Galway. It is due to report by the end of the year. It is a matter for the group, but I stand full ready to support it with funding or whatever else. There are now ring-fenced places in Northern Ireland for students from this jurisdiction. Why can there not be the same in reverse? Student mobility is key not only in terms of educational access but also in terms of building peace and prosperity and getting to know one another better on the island of Ireland. I will work with the Deputy closely on that.
As regards the project at Magee, the current enrolment number on UU's Derry campus is 5,227 students. I am informed that, with planned programme offerings, it is estimated that planned growth using existing infrastructure can reach only 6,000. As part of its campus master plan, increasing UU's estate infrastructure is a prerequisite to growing student numbers, and UU envisages a staged growth to 6,560 students at the Derry campus by September 2026.
I was recently at Queen's, where I myself studied for a period. I was with our spokesperson on further and higher education, Pádraig Delargy, and we met with Queen's management and students. We met many students as part of the freshers' fair as well. Another group we met with that I thought was very interesting was the secondary students' union. It really wanted to highlight the fact that it can be so difficult for students from the North to study in the South. It is welcome that that group has come together, and I look forward to what it will propose come the end of the year.
At the moment most students do not take four A-level subjects. That is just not a reality. Not only is there the issue of the four A-levels but there is also the fact of the extra bonus points in maths. Most students, obviously, if they do not plan to study maths, will not be doing maths for their A-levels. That is really important.
I really look forward to seeing what comes out of this. I hope it will be workable and helpful.
Me too, and I really look forward to meeting the secondary schools group from Northern Ireland, which reached out to me today. I am very happy to meet the students in the coming weeks and will keep in touch with the Deputy in that regard.
This just needs to be fixed. The two systems do not seem to understand each other, but that is not a reason not to find a workaround and a way to fix this. Huge progress has been made, and I thank the universities, UU and Queen's in particular, for that, with the ring-fenced places for students from here to go to the North and to be able to study medicine from next year, nursing from this year and therapies from this year. That is real progress the universities have delivered. We need now to return the favour and we need to make sure we can do the same here for students from the North. There is no doubt in my mind that we have very many great brains working in the higher education system. We will bring them all together through Universities Ireland and come up with an ask and a practical recommendation, and let us try to get this done by the end of the year.
87. Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh asked the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science the progress in the assigning of new schools of veterinary medicine and pharmacy; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [45218/23]
I wish to ask a question about the plans to formulate new schools for veterinary medicine and pharmacy within our third level sector. The Minister will know I have a strong regional interest in this in that South East Technological University has strong bids for both courses. It is one of the things the university sector is very much looking forward to. There are a number of institutions, not just South East Technological University, SETU, looking at this. What is the progress in this regard, what is the timeline and when can we expect a decision to be made?
I thank Deputy Ó Cathasaigh for this question, which is about an issue we have discussed on many occasions. First, the fact that relatively newly formed universities, including South East Technological University, had the ability and the capacity themselves to put in such strong bids, as the Deputy said, that were deemed to be viable by an independent assessments panel speaks to the real credibility and heft of South East Technological University. That is the first thing I wish to acknowledge. I had a chance to congratulate and thank some of the team in person at the National Ploughing Championships but I wish to do so again on the record of the Dáil.
Ensuring a supply of qualified vets and pharmacists to meet the demands of Ireland's agrifood and healthcare sector is a really important issue for my Department.
A number of institutions, as the Deputy said, put forward proposals, following a recent Higher Education Authority, HEA, expression-of-interest process. We basically went out and asked the system what more it could do for us in terms of veterinary places, pharmacy places and other healthcare places. The institutions outlined options not only for the expansion of existing veterinary medicine and pharmacy programmes but also for the development of entirely new programmes.
As Deputy Ó Cathasaigh is aware, there is a substantial capital cost associated with the development of any new school in veterinary medicine and pharmacy, and it is important we understand the full scale of all costs and what is planned for. The options identified through the HEA's process have the potential to transform - I do not use that word lightly - the number of students who can take up places in these key areas. This will be an expansion at a scale rarely seen across five high-demand areas, of which the Deputy has referred to two, and will of course require a significant investment of public funding in our institutions.
Detailed discussions need to take place and are taking place about the ways and means to address capital costs for the provision of any new school, including in the context of the expected upcoming review of our national development plan.
The factual answer is that I am now working on the veterinary piece with the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, on the pharmacy piece with the Minister for Health and on the next steps with the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. I hope to be in a position to make progress in the NDP review, which I am led to believe is likely to be towards the end of this year or the very start of next year.
We will not be unhappy with the idea of increased capital funding or increased capital costs because the university that has been founded in the south east to serve the needs of the region is crying out for capital investment. I know it has acquired the Waterford Crystal site and is acquiring another site in Wexford, but it will have to develop on it. Kildalton college stands ready to be a part of this offering. We have a strong agriculture sector in the south east. We also have the strong horse-racing element, which would justify the need for the veterinary training aspect. We also have an extremely strong and vibrant pharma sector in Waterford, which would fit very well with a new college in that regard, remembering what the point of developing a university in the south east is and was.
It is about reversing that historical brain drain from the south east and providing university quality education in the region.
Without prejudicing processes or next steps in any way, it is interesting and encouraging that, on a regional basis, such strong ideas came forward. I mention not just strong ideas or hopes, because everyone is ambitious for their area, but when these bids were analysed by independent experts on an assessment panel that included, for example, the chief veterinary officer, they were deemed to be viable proposals for further consideration. The SETU proposed that veterinary would be provided through a three-partner model with Teagasc through the Kildalton Agricultural College and a distributive small animal clinical network as well. The factual position is that the higher education system has stepped up. It has told the Government and Oireachtas what more it is possible to do in key areas where we know we need more people and need to train more people to better deliver the services in agriculture regarding veterinary and in healthcare regarding pharmacy. Now the Government, in the round, will need to decide how it wishes to address this through the NDP review.
I am not at all surprised that the likes of SETU has provided something that has proved to be independently viable. Waterford Institute of Technology, as it was, had to punch above its weight for years. It was forced to do so and to behave as though it was the university for the south east because it effectively was. I am delighted to see that ambition remaining under the new configuration and management. It is vital for the region. Some 600,000 people live within a one-hour drive of Waterford. That figure relates only to the Waterford campus and does not take account of the number of people who would rely on the Carlow campus or the new Wexford campus, which is under development. There is a strong case to be made for this type of investment. It is exactly the kind of driver we need for SETU to allow it to take a great step forward and provide for the needs of the young people in the region. The capital investment that would be attendant on the development of a new school of this type, either in farming or veterinary, would be hugely significant for the university.
I welcome all support and allies in making the case for increased capital for the higher education sector given the difference the Deputy and I know it would make to the regions. I am not satisfied that so many young people are leaving the country to study veterinary medicine abroad. It is a disproportionately high number. We see in the number of people registering on the Veterinary Council of Ireland register every year how many of them have been educated abroad. The overwhelming majority of new entrants to the register each year are educated abroad. We have to be able to do better. This country is proud of its agriculture and agrifood sectors and our regions. Our higher education sector has put up its hand and said that whether it is SETU, the Atlantic Technological University, the University of Limerick or more than one university, we can do more and better. I will be putting our best foot forward in agriculture, with the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, and in healthcare, with the Minister for Health, to make the case in the NDP review for driving some of these projects forward.
88. Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú asked the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science if consideration can be given to allowing an apprentice butcher who lives in the South and who has been offered an apprenticeship place at a suitable facility in the North (details supplied) to be accepted onto the SOLAS apprenticeship course; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [45367/23]
I am dealing with a young man who works in Dundalk and wants to do an apprenticeship through SOLAS. He has a workplace in Crossmaglen in County Armagh that is happy to do this but there is an issue in delivering it. I have spoken to the Taoiseach and the Minister, Deputy Harris, about this, and the matter is with the Minister of State, Deputy Niall Collins, at the minute. There is a general view that we need to deliver cross-Border student mobility, so I am hoping for some good news.
I am glad to inform the Deputy that procedures have been put in place by SOLAS allowing for apprentices resident in the Republic to be employed outside the State, including in the North. The Department has been advised by SOLAS that the conditions are that the relevant employer is approved and registered to train apprentices and complies with specific taxation and company registration requirements, along with the appointment of a company representative to have overall responsibility for training the apprentices. I will provide full details separately to the Deputy of the conditions that must be met under these procedures. It is a matter for the employer of the person to whom the question relates to ascertain whether they meet these requirements, which would allow the apprenticeship to proceed in these circumstances.
We already have an all-Ireland apprenticeship programme, the accounting technician apprenticeship, with a second programme for accounting technologists in development. These are at levels 6 and 8, respectively, on the national framework of qualifications. This was a key commitment under the action plan for apprenticeship that we are glad to be able to deliver in partnership with the programme’s consortium.
I am almost shocked with that positive answer, which is the one I had hoped for. Unfortunately, it is not the information the student in question, his mother or I had received previously when dealing with SOLAS so there may be a need for communication. If we ensure the employer meets the criteria and the correct people are communicating with SOLAS, we can get this sorted and bring the issue to an end. I ask for a promise from the Minister of State that we will ensure the right people talk to each other and deliver a solution so that this young fellow can get his apprenticeship and his mother is no longer giving out to me.
As I said, we will endeavour to send the Deputy the information or criteria post-haste after this session.
The Minister will not be shocked when I address my next contribution to him. I hope he is willing to accept it. I welcome all that has been said on mobility, whether we are talking about cross-Border, hard-to-reach communities or disability. I will return to the issue of personal assistants. I see the Minister has provided additional moneys to deal with disability in further education. People are under severe pressure and becoming apprehensive. There are other issues, however, including a long-term issue related to contracts, issues with monthly rather than weekly payments and an issue with switching to jobseeker's payments because people do not have full-time contracts.
I acknowledge that Deputy Ó Murchú raises this issue with me on a regular basis and we have had good meetings and engagement on it, including with a group of personal assistants we met, who were largely, though not exclusively, from the Louth and Meath Education and Training Board. I am pleased that we received an extra €2 million in funding for students with disabilities in the budget. This will allow us to do more to support students with disabilities. That core part of supporting students with disabilities is the people who work with them. I do not want to get ahead of myself but in answer to a parliamentary question from the Deputy last night, I said I was looking to see if, as part of that, we can better support our personal assistants. A proper discussion on the role of personal assistants is key. Are there interim steps we can take? I am open to doing that and I look forward to having a follow-up meeting with the Deputy shortly.
89. Deputy Mairéad Farrell asked the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science if he is ensuring that the National Maritime College of Ireland has the required level of funding to continue providing the essential training in green technology and skills; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [45697/23]
I was down at the National Maritime College of Ireland, NMCI, which is a fantastic facility. If we are looking to create jobs for the future and the green agenda, the NMCI has so much potential. It is already delivering a great deal but it needs investment. It has always been ahead of the game compared to other colleges around Europe but we must ensure that it has investment. The amount of investment needed is not massive but some increase is necessary to ensure the college can remain ahead of the game.
The National Maritime College of Ireland comprises part of Munster Technological University, which is an autonomous body. The application of funding to specific programmes or for particular purposes provided by the HEA is a matter for the technological university. The Deputy may wish to note that core funding allocated to the higher education sector increased in 2023 and, following last week's budget day announcements, is set to increase further by €60 million in 2024.
The NMCI, through the delivery of courses in areas including marine safety training and marine engineering, plays a crucial role in delivering the green skills required to meet the Government’s ambitious climate targets, particularly the skills required for offshore renewable energy. I join the Deputy in expressing positive and kind words about its work. The college is a key member of the expert advisory group convened by my Department to support the provision of the skills required for offshore wind delivery. Against this backdrop, my Department is not aware of any funding issue that is impacting on the college's ability to continue to provide training in the areas referred to in the Deputy's question but I am happy to discuss the matter with her.
