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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 22 Nov 2023

Vol. 1046 No. 2

Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

San olltoghchán deireanach in 2020, sheol vótálaithe teachtaireacht láidir agus soiléir gur cheart go mbeadh an deis agus an ceart ag daoine éirí as obair ag 65 bliain d’aois agus an pinsean a bheith acu. Go simplí, baineann seo le cearta agus le cothrom na féinne. Nuair a bhíonn 65 bliain d’aois sroichte ag daoine agus iad ag obair, ba cheart go mbeadh an seans acu éirí as. Tá a gcuid sealanna déanta acu agus a gcuid cáin íoctha acu. Ba chóir go mbeadh an ceart sin bainte amach acu agus cead acu éirí as obair ag 65 agus an pinsin a fháil. Níl seo le fáil acu áfach, agus tá sé soiléir go bhfuil an Rialtas ag diúltú seo go fóill.

At the last general election in 2020, voters sent a very clear and loud message that people have the right to retire at the age of 65 years and this is simply about fairness. When people have reached the age of 65 they have worked their shifts and they have paid their dues. If a person is working on their feet all day, whether on a construction site, in a hairdresser's, in hospitality or on a factory floor, they cannot be expected to continue working beyond the pension age. All workers, when they reach that age, must be given the freedom to choose to retire or work on if they wish. Workers need to know the Government will treat them fairly and protect their rights.

However, let us be clear this is a Government, and indeed two parties, that legislated to increase the retirement age to 68 years. It was only Sinn Féin and public pressure at the last election that put a stop to that. People have been waiting for years for the Government to outline a very clear roadmap and hoping that roadmap would tell them they have the right to down tools at the age of 65 if they choose to. They will be sorely disappointed today, because this Government is telling that brickie, that hairdresser and that waitress is they do not have the right to retire at the age of 65. This Government has again let them down. It has fudged its responsibility and is abandoning workers in this regard. The various options developed and the data gathered by the Pensions Commission made it clear it was possible to put the Social Insurance Fund on a sustainable footing and afford the people the right to retire on a pension at the age of 65.

Despite this, the plan announced today still does not give workers the right to retire at the age of 65. This is a core commitment we in Sinn Féin would deliver in government. Sinn Féin's proposal to increase employer's PRSI on the portion of pay above €100,000 would immediately cover the cost of introducing the right to retire on a pension for those who have reached the age of 65 years. We are clear about delivering this important right in a way that is sustainable and gives workers certainty and security. This is security people at work need. In construction sites, restaurants, hairdresser's and factory floors across this State people who need to prepare and plan and who deserve to know that after a lifetime of work they will be treated with fairness and respect by a system they have paid into all their lives. I ask the Taoiseach, because workers need to know, why this Government is still refusing to give people the right to retire at the age of 65 on a pension if they choose to and when will the Government wake up to the reality and treat workers with the respect they deserve.

I thank the Deputy. He may recall that in the 2020 election, the parties that form the Government, namely, Fine Gael, Fianna Fáil and the Green Party, won 51% of the vote. That is why we are the Government and Sinn Féin is not. Let us not forget that. Getting a plurality of the vote is not a majority; quite far from it. When it comes to the issue the Deputy raises, the Government has decided the State pension age will remain at 66. People will have the choice to retire later if they so wish. They can retire at 67, 68, 69 or 70 and if they do so they will get an increased State pension, but the default pension age remains 66 and anyone who has reached the age of 66 can at that point draw down their State pension.

The State pension has been at 66 for quite some time now. I think it may be ten years now the State pension age in Ireland has been 66 and indeed that is the age in Northern Ireland and the Deputy's party voted for 66 in Northern Ireland, which we should not forget. We took a decision we would not raise the pension age beyond 66. Other countries are doing that, reflecting the fact demographics are changing but we have decided not to raise the pension age to 67 and that comes with a cost. We will have to cover that cost by increasing very gradually employer's, self-employed and employee's PRSI over the course of the next number of years. We have set out the schedule for how that will be done, with the first increase of 0.1% in October 2024. In a full year, that will cost the average worker about €45 or €50. That is the cost of not raising the pension age and it is a cost I think most people will be willing to bear.

In addition to that, we are making further reforms to the PRSI system. We believe work should pay and if people pay more money into the Social Insurance Fund, they should more benefits as a result. Part of the reforms the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, is bringing in is that if people are made unemployed, for the first few months afterwards they will not get paid the basic jobseeker's rate but will be paid a higher rate.

It is a little bit like how the pandemic unemployment payment operated. It is an important step forward and I hope it is something the Opposition will support. However, like everything, it has to be funded and paid for. The Sinn Féin philosophy is that people can be given new benefits and new things for free and that someone else will pay. That is not honest. If we are going to keep the pension age at 66, which we are, and if we are going to bring in new benefits for all workers, then it is only fair that those who benefit from it, all workers, should contribute. That is why we have adopted the approach we have.

The Taoiseach talks about not being honest. What about saying that increases in PRSI are a tax on jobs and that is why people should not vote for Sinn Féin? Those are the words that came out of his mouth. What has he done now? He has increased PRSI. We have always made it clear that these measures have to be funded. The right to retire on a pension has existed while the Taoiseach has been in government. It was a Fine Gael Government that abolished it in 2014. We are very clear. We know what the outcome of the last election was but let us be very clear. On behalf of Sinn Féin, I pledge that, if we get elected and form a government after the next election, we will give people the right to retire at the age of 65 if they choose to. Why? It is because we recognise that the brickie who is out in the rain today laying bricks and building the houses we need deserves that choice. We know that the hairdresser who has been on his or her feet since 9 o'clock this morning deserves that right, as does the person slogging it out on the factory floor. That is the difference. We have shown how it can be funded. The Government has already made a U-turn because of the pressure Sinn Féin put on it in the last election campaign and the fact that people demanded that it abandon its proposals and what it legislated for, which was to increase the pension age to 68. Why does the Taoiseach believe that that brickie today should not have the right to retire at the age of 65 when he did have the right to retire at that age ten years ago?

As is so often the case, the Deputy's passion is phoney. Sinn Féin voted for the pension age to be 66 in Northern Ireland. Why should people in Northern Ireland have a different retirement age from people in the Republic of Ireland? Is it because there are two Sinn Féins? It just does not make sense. If the Deputy cannot explain why his party voted for a pension age of 66 in Northern Ireland-----

Do not embarrass yourself.

----while advocating for 65 in the Republic of Ireland, then he does not have a coherent case. I will be interested to see if Sinn Féin proposes in its next manifesto what it proposed in its last, which was a massive 40% increase in employers' PRSI-----

That is not true.

The Taoiseach is spoofing again.

-----which would have been an anti-jobs measure. That is absolutely true.

There are so many untruths coming from the Taoiseach it is unbelievable.

It would have been an anti-jobs measure and would have cost jobs.

When the Taoiseach has to resort to that-----

(Interruptions).

When it comes to the pension age and the retirement age, the Deputy and I were both born in the 1970s. At that time, the pension age in Ireland was 70 and the average life expectancy for a man was 68. All the calculations, going back through the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s, were based on the idea that people would pay into the Social Insurance Fund for 30 or 40 years and only be retired for a few. That has fundamentally changed. People now live longer and are retired for 20 or 30 years. That is great but it has to be paid for.

Of course it does but the Taoiseach still has not answered the question of what he would say to the brickie or the hairdresser.

Táim ag bogadh ar aghaidh.

What about the brickie in Northern Ireland?

(Interruptions).

Free the Belfast brickie.

Táim ag bogadh ar aghaidh. Would Deputies please-----

There are elections up North next year if the Government parties want to stand for them.

What about 65 for the Belfast brickie?

Half of the people on the Government benches can retire on a full pension at the age of 50. That is the reality. They will be able to take their full pension at 50.

Could we have a little respect for the role of the Chair? I am moving on to the Social Democrats and an Teachta Holly Cairns.

I welcome that a deal to release hostages has been reached between Israel and Hamas. Everyone in this House is hopeful that Emily Hand will be among the first hostages to be released. My thoughts remain with her family at this extremely difficult time. I also welcome the release of 150 Palestinian women and children who have been detained in Israeli prisons. Taking hostages is a war crime but snatching children and babies from their families and using them as hostages is especially despicable. All hostages should be released immediately.

On the other aspects of the deal, Israel should not be congratulated for doing the bare minimum. Ensuring that 2.3 million people in Gaza have water to drink and food to eat is not something praiseworthy. Starving and dehydrating millions of people is a war crime; let us not pretend otherwise. The refusal to allow medical supplies and fuel into the Gaza Strip, which led to the deaths of countless patients, including premature babies, was another war crime. Israel has now said it will stop the bombing for just four days before it resumes the carnage. We cannot allow this slaughter to continue. More than 14,000 people in Gaza, including nearly 6,000 children, have been murdered.

Israel has systematically targeted hospitals. A few hospitals in the south and one in the north of Gaza are just about functional. According to the World Health Organization, none is equipped to treat critical trauma cases or to perform surgery. Before 7 October, there were 36 hospitals in Gaza. Just over six weeks later, the healthcare system has been deliberately obliterated. When medical supplies flow into Gaza, where will the patients be treated? Given that, at the last count, at least 220 doctors and healthcare staff have been killed, who will treat patients?

On Monday, the Secretary-General of the UN, António Guterres, issued a stark warning to the world. He said: "We are witnessing a killing of civilians that is unparalleled and unprecedented in any conflict since I have been Secretary-General." If Israel is determined to continue this barbarism, there must be consequences. I have repeatedly raised with the Taoiseach the issue of economic sanctions at EU level. Last week, he told me that he would get legal advice on whether the human rights clause of the EU-Israel trade agreement has been breached. Has he done that? Will he give a commitment to pursue the suspension of the trade deal at EU level?

Next Wednesday, 29 November, is International Day of Solidarity with the Palestinian People. It would send a strong message of support and solidarity to Palestinian people if the Irish Government were to recognise the Palestinian state on that day. Spain's Prime Minister, Pedro Sánchez, who has just been re-elected, has said this is one of his priorities. It is something he intends to pursue at EU level. Will the Taoiseach support those efforts?

I thank the Deputy very much. I join the House in welcoming the news that there will be a four-day ceasefire in Gaza, to be observed by all sides: Israel, Hamas and the other armed groups in the territory. I recognise the role of the US Government and the Qatari Government in mediating this welcome ceasefire. The ceasefire will facilitate the release of 50 hostages being held by Palestinians. We hope this will include Emily Hand. It will also facilitate the release of 150 Palestinian prisoners held by Israel, some of whom are teenage boys imprisoned for little more than throwing stones at armed soldiers.

The four-day ceasefire will allow humanitarian aid to get into Gaza. This will include food, fuel, medicines, water and all the basics needed for human life. Individually and as part of the UN and EU, Ireland will do anything we can to ensure that happens well. It is our view that the ceasefire should not just last for four days and that it should be extended to allow space for a peace initiative to bring a permanent end to violence in the region, resulting in a two-state solution and Israel and Palestine living side-by-side as secure and viable states.

I have sought advice on the human rights clause in the EU agreement with Israel, although it has not yet come back. These things can sometimes take time, particularly where complex legal questions are involved.

On recognition, Ireland has always given Palestine de facto recognition. We recognise its passports, describe its Head of Government as Prime Minister and describe Mahmoud Abbas as President of Palestine rather than President of the Palestinian Authority. We do not give Palestine de jure recognition because we have taken the view that this should only happen when it is actually established and functioning as a state as part of a two-state solution. I appreciate that other countries take a different approach but our approach has always been to recognise the passports, President, Prime Minister and government of Palestine but not to recognise the state of Palestine formally and de jure until it is established, exists and is functioning in the way a normal state would.

We must have a ceasefire, not a temporary pause and the Taoiseach seemed to echo that sentiment. Getting a ceasefire will require pressure on Israel and we have the ability to apply pressure in that way. When it comes to sanctions at EU level, the Taoiseach has said he does not want us to be too far in front because people will not follow him. As it stands Ireland is being outflanked by countries like Spain and Belgium so that excuse is ringing hollow. The Government is also failing to live up to its commitments. The programme for Government commits to recognising the state of Palestine to "protect the integrity of Palestinian territory". Given that Israel is decimating Gaza, it is time for Ireland to formally recognise the state of Palestine. The Government needs to change its approach. We should join other EU countries that have done so to send a message that the Palestinian territory is undeniable and must be protected. If not now, when? Will the Taoiseach show leadership, change his approach on this at EU level and live up to the Government's commitment in the programme for Government?

Sadly, the Israeli Government does not listen to us. I am not sure the Israeli Government listens to anyone anymore. They used to listen to the Americans but I am not even sure that is even the case anymore. As President Biden said, they are at risk of being "blinded by rage". It is a sad reality that I am not sure that any action or statement by us, the European Union or the US will change the course of action they are on.

That does not necessarily mean we do not do the right thing, and we have increased our humanitarian aid to Gaza and Palestine. We have provided additional funding to the International Criminal Court so it can fund the investigation into war crimes that may have been committed in the Palestinian territories. We will continue to press the matter at UN and EU levels. As the Deputy knows, when it comes to sanctions, I strongly take the view that if they are done, they should be done on a multilateral basis. The point of sanctions is that they are supposed to do more harm to the country being sanctioned than the country imposing them. That should only be done on a multilateral basis, acting in concert with other countries.

I want to raise the important issue of flooding and flood relief schemes. We have witnessed in recent months the damage and devastation that heavy rain can cause to people, property and the environment. When I was Minister of State with responsibility for the OPW, we initiated a number of flood relief schemes, including in Cork city, Galway city, Ballinasloe, south Galway Gort lowlands, the Shannon Callows and Lough Funshinagh, which is held up with legislation so I do not know where it is. These projects are not moving at all. The reason they are not moving is they are tied up with environmental constraints and every kind of report. The south Galway Gort lowlands flood relief scheme was initiated back in 2016-17. We are coming into 2024 and it still has not reached a stage where it might come to construction. I do not blame the Minister of State, Deputy O'Donovan, or any other Minister because I was in that Department. It is down to the legal framework by which we are trying to get these projects done.

Is it possible to redefine an "emergency" to include flooding and flood relief? It seems that what is happening is that if there is a flooding incident, the waters will subside and everything will go away. The officials will say that it is not deemed an emergency because the flooding does not remain. We must look at the devastation that is caused and at what happened in the Shannon Callows, with the complete extinction of biodiversity in that area as a result of continuous flooding with no relief for it. In south Galway, the lands keep flooding and then there is a huge flood, which means that properties are flooded and people are out of their houses and all of that kind of thing. We must look at what happened in Cork city and Midleton; these events will continue to happen. Can we redefine an "emergency" to include flooding and flood relief schemes as emergency measures so that work can be done more quickly and relief can be given to people who are living through a nightmare every winter? We will also start to restore the biodiversity that has been lost where we have flooding. It is so simple; we have brought in laws that contradict what we are trying to do. We are trying to save places from being flooded so that the biodiversity can remain in place. What we are doing is contradictory. I ask the Taoiseach to seriously consider that.

I have had occasion a number of times in recent years, including in the Deputy's company once or twice, to visit areas that have been flooded and to witness first-hand the devastation experienced by homeowners, farmers and business people when the flood waters come in. I also know that flood relief schemes work. Approximately 50 schemes have been done in the past ten or 11 years in Bandon, Mahon, around the River Tolka in Dublin and other places, and they work. We have approximately 90 schemes in train and it is important that we get them done. The budget for flood risk management plans is more than €1.3 billion and it has been trebled so significant investment is going into flood relief schemes.

The south Galway Gort lowlands flood relief scheme is a priority for the Deputy, the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, and Deputy Cannon. It is planned for that scheme to protect 150 properties and the area has been subject to flooding quite regularly, including in 1994, 1995, 2009, 2014, 2015, 2016 and 2020. It is much needed. The scheme is at stage one and consultant engineers were appointed back in 2017. There has been significant public and stakeholder consultation. Environmental assessments are being undertaken for the preferred scheme, which involves an integrated mechanism to move water through overflow pipes across turloughs in the area. The ability to build a €20 million scheme in this area is a challenge and might require the removal of significant volumes of clay with limited access routes. Other challenges include environmental risks and the cost-benefit of a preferred scheme. If a viable scheme is identified, a submission for planning is programmed to take place next year.

The Taoiseach hit the nail on the head when he said he has visited some of these places. Lots of visits have taken place. I even remember President Michael D. Higgins came to visit Gort in 2019 and 2020. That is all fine but everybody goes away and people are left with the flooding. As the Taoiseach said, the design team was appointed in 2017 for the south Galway Gort lowlands flood relief scheme. We are coming into 2024 and we are looking at whether it will be a viable scheme. There is an issue around Transport Infrastructure Ireland, TII, doing a culvert under the motorway. That needs to be taken out of the cost of the scheme because it should have been done properly by TII when it was building the road. The Taoiseach quite rightly said that the likes of the Dunkellin or Claregalway schemes have brought immediate comfort to people living in those areas. The people there are delighted and the jobs were done fantastically well by the OPW and the local authorities. The problem remains that the pace at which this work is carried out is too slow, given the devastation flooding causes to people, property, farms, farmers, livestock and the environment.

On the Deputy's question, which was initially a straight one on emergency powers, the OPW and local authorities do not have emergency powers to expedite schemes arising from damage caused by flooding events and all schemes must meet regulatory and planning requirements. Works for flood relief schemes on an emergency basis were attempted and the Deputy mentioned Lough Funshinagh in County Roscommon, where it was tried. That resulted in a court challenge and showed what an extremely difficult route it was to pursue this. However, the Minister for housing is reviewing the legislation to see if any changes can be made. It should be borne in mind that even with a change in the law, even in an emergency, environmental laws would still apply.

The Taoiseach was in Limerick during the week at the Limerick Chamber Regional Business Awards. When he spoke there, people were disillusioned and wondering if it was actually the Taoiseach speaking or an independent Deputy because what he was saying is not actually what his Government is carrying out. They actually thought, at the start of his speech, that he was reading my speech, with the things he was trying to introduce.

This is the story of a local business in Limerick before the budget. Before the budget was announced the store was already under immense pressure dealing with electricity bills which had increased from €8,000 to €15,000 and insurance costs that had gone up from €15,000 to €22,000. The alcohol segregation laws added costs of €5,000, while the cost of fuel meant that the margin on goods was reduced. Changes to statutory sick pay had resulted in an increase in rates of absenteeism. The business contacted me again after the budget and said that the Government had confirmed more increases. The minimum wage went up to €12.70, which will cost the business €25,0000. A new public holiday was introduced and pension auto-enrolment will cost €8,000, while changes to employer's PRSI will cost €4,000. Statutory sick pay is rising to five days, which will cost €6,000, while the deposit return scheme, the latte levy and decarbonisation costs will amount to €15,000. Before the budget, the business, a local supermarket, faced increases of €19,000 and after the budget its costs increased by €58,000, which means the business is facing a total increase of €77,000.

We saw the minimum wage increase but people are not fooled. Who is going to pay for the cost of all of these increases in our local supermarkets? The people who are getting the minimum wage. The minimum wage goes nowhere. All it has done is increase the cost of living. It has increased inflation. People may have more money in their pocket but they are paying more for goods. Employers are paying more money to employ people, which means that the only purse that got bigger was the Government's income tax. The Government is forcing small businesses that create local employment out of business. That is what the minimum wage has done. The Government had it within its grasp to reduce taxes, which would mean that the money in people's pockets would travel further. All that the Government has done is increase taxes across the board. Those who earn more pay more. The Government has increased inflation for every small business in this country and has crippled them.

We did reduce taxes in the budget, both the USC and income tax, and people will see that reflected in their pay slips in January. I am glad we were able to do exactly that. I am also glad to report that inflation is now easing. It is now at approximately half the rate it was at this time last year and needs to fall further. Those are the facts.

I stand over what the Government is doing when it comes to improving pay and terms and conditions for workers. It is something I have been working and leading on for many years now, as Minister for Social Protection, Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment and now as Taoiseach. I am determined to see through the introduction of a living wage, auto-enrolment so that all workers, particularly those in the private sector, are entitled to an occupational pension on top of the State pension, and the introduction of sick pay. This is the right thing to do and I said so at Limerick Chamber. I said it is the right thing to do because we should make work pay. If we make work pay, more people will work. There are 2.6 million people now working in Ireland, more than ever before, and that is a very good thing. If we make work pay, people have more money to spend in those small businesses the Deputy talks about and that will benefit business too. However, we have to do it in a way that is gradual and does not happen too quickly because there is a risk of damaging business and reducing employment if we move too quickly.

Recognising the increased costs that businesses face, we have set aside €250 million to help businesses, particularly small businesses, in the new year. The Minister, Deputy Coveney, is developing that scheme at the moment. It is going to cost approximately €250 million and 90% of rate-paying businesses will benefit from it. The total amount that will be paid out will be double what was paid out this year through the temporary business energy support scheme. That is being done in recognition of the fact there are businesses that will face increased costs and we want to help them out with that but we are not going to depart from doing what we believe fundamentally is the right thing to do, which is to make sure that people who work in Ireland are paid a decent wage, have decent terms, conditions and protections and a pension when they retire.

I agree with the Taoiseach 100% that people who work in Ireland deserve to get fair pay. The top earner in the HSE earns €974,000 a year whereas a newly qualified nurse earns €32,552. Again, we go back to the people who work and these nurses work tirelessly to help us. The Government is backing a person who earns €18,730.69 per week against a nurse who earns €625.80 and then it introduces a recruitment freeze in the HSE. Who is the Government actually working for? That wage would pay for 30 newly qualified nurses. The Government gives somebody €974,000 and stands over that. The top five earners in the HSE earn €3 million. A total of 92 nurses could be employed for that money but the Government introduces a recruitment freeze. The Taoiseach says that his Government is working for the people and for basic pay. It is criminal that these people get that type of money.

I really think the Deputy is all over the place, quite frankly. A minute ago he was criticising us for increasing the minimum wage and then two minutes later he was saying he thinks it is right that there should be an increase in the minimum wage and that people should be paid more. He talks about an employee in the HSE being paid €974,000. There is no employee in the HSE paid €974,000. It is possible that a medical contracting firm, or something like that, got that payment but certainly there is no employee of the HSE receiving that payment.

The recruitment freeze the Deputy refers to-----

Bernard Gloster is on €420,000.

That is half of the amount the Deputy mentioned.

The recruitment freeze the Deputy referred to does not apply to nurses, midwives, GPs-----

It does apply to nurses.

It does not apply to consultants-----

It does apply to nurses. The Taoiseach does not know what he is talking about. He is all over the place.

It does apply to nurses and the Taoiseach should correct the record of the Dáil.

Thank you. That concludes Leader's Questions.

With respect, the Taoiseach should correct the record of the Dáil. This recruitment ban, if he is not aware of it, does apply to nurses-----

Please resume your seat Deputy.

It is not Deputy Doherty's question.

The only nurses it does not apply to are newly graduated nurses.

For the second time, please resume your seat, Deputy.

The Taoiseach should correct the record of the Dáil or he should inform himself of how his recruitment embargo applies.

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