Reform of the Television Licence Fee Model: Motion [Private Members]

Deputy Thomas Gould

I move:

That Dáil Éireann:

recognises that:

— a vibrant, diverse, financially sustainable and independent media sector is critical to any well-functioning democracy;

— the Future of Media Commission Report published in 2022 recommended that the funding model for public service media change from the current system of funding by the television licence fee combined with general Exchequer funds to a funding model based entirely on general Exchequer funds; and

— financial scandals at Radio Telefís Éireann (RTÉ) have rocked people's trust and confidence in the national broadcaster and the television licence;

notes with concern that approximately 13,000 people were summoned before the courts last year for not purchasing a television licence, while no one has been held to account for the incredible waste of public money at RTÉ; and

mandates the Government to:

— scrap the unfair television licence fee with immediate effect;

— invest Exchequer funding in a platform-neutral Media Fund which would support public service media content production and the activities of commercial, local and community providers along with RTÉ and TG4; and

— introduce a legal amnesty from prosecution for those who have not paid their licence fee.

I thank members of the media and the Committee of Public Accounts, particularly my party colleagues Deputies Brian Stanley and Imelda Munster, for the Trojan work they have done to this day in exposing the scandals at RTÉ and assessing the recommendations of the report of the Future of Media Commission.

It is vital that we frame this Private Members' motion in the context of the current public atmosphere. What transpired over the summer was nothing short of a scandal. It was not just one scandal but a number of scandals. It has destroyed public confidence and trust in the management of RTÉ and exposed serious shortcomings, including a lack of governance and accountability, many of which remain unresolved to this day. This lack of accountability arose in a number of scandals, none more so than Toy Show The Musical. This fiasco, which was not given board approval, went on to lose €2.1 million. To make matters worse a recent report found that even if every date for the show had been sold, there would still have been losses. One does not need to be a shrewd business person to know that this kind of business model is unbelievable.

Where do we go from here? The numbers paying their TV licence fee are dropping and the amount of Exchequer funding required to keep RTÉ operating is creeping up. It is deeply frustrating that it is not clear where we go now. The Government published the report of the Future of Media Commission. It took almost one year to analyse it and two years before taking any action. It still has not been implemented. One of the key recommendations of the report is that we move from a TV licence fee model to direct Exchequer funding. The report recommended that for public sector broadcasting to be sustainably funded, it would need to be funded through the Exchequer. This was before any scandal in RTÉ. The commission saw that the TV licence model was not the way to go. After all of these scandals, TV licence payments have dropped off a cliff. The recommendations of the report are credible. Experts put in time, sat down, evaluated the situation and made their recommendations. Deputy Doherty and I, and our colleagues in Sinn Féin, are bringing forward this Private Members' motion because if the Government does not act, it is up to the main Opposition party to do so.

We published this policy yesterday. I did a radio interview earlier today with Matt Cooper during which Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan criticised Sinn Féin. I pointed out that we have a policy and asked him where the Government's policy is. The Government has had the commission's report for more than two years and still does not have a policy in this regard.

The Taoiseach criticised me earlier, saying our policy was comical but he does not have a policy. The hypocrisy of the man is unbelievable. The Government should support us because this is the right thing to do. Instead of chasing people through the courts to pay their TV licence, we propose that direct Exchequer funding be provided to fund RTÉ, TG4 and public sector broadcasting by community and local radio stations and Virgin Media. This would be done by implementing the Future of Media Commission's recommendation that funding be multi-annual and set over four years. Coimisiún na Meán would propose the level of funding and a Minister would not be able to change it save in exceptional circumstances. This would ensure the integrity and independence of the media.

Last year, 13,000 people were brought through the courts because they had not paid their TV licence fee. This amounted to less than €2.1 million in fee income. At the same time, €2.1 million was lost as a result of Toy Show The Musical. No one was held accountable or brought through the courts for that, but ordinary people were. This is why this motion is necessary.

Deputy Imelda Munster

It is nearly ten years since the public service broadcasting charge was due to be introduced. Since then, we have had committees, commissions and all sorts of research, time and money invested into this question. Successive Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael Governments have not had the political courage to make a call on this. In 2020, the Government again handed over the job to the Future of Media Commission, which was initially set up to look solely at the licence fee. Its remit was then expanded to cover the future of media generally, thus giving political cover when the Government inevitably did not accept the commission's recommendations for direct Exchequer funding, which is Sinn Féin's policy proposal tonight.

The commission's report, which cost the taxpayer €240,000, has been gathering dust since 2022. Meanwhile, RTÉ has been an absolute shambles and there is still no clear funding pathway to ensure the survival of public service media, be that TG4, RTÉ or other broadcasters and media which provide public service content. We need a reformed system that will secure funding while ensuring accountability, transparency and value for money for all media in receipt of direct Exchequer funding.

Every other week in the news we hear the Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media, Deputy Catherine Martin, either arguing the case for this or in disagreement with other Ministers about it. It does not bode well that this much friction on the issue continues in Government. There even seem to be arguments and disagreements on this issue between Ministers in the same party. The Government needs to get a handle on this. The Future of Media Commission's recommendation was for direct Exchequer funding and that is precisely what we are proposing in our motion. Members of the Government need to stop fighting behind the scenes like ferrets in a sack and support Sinn Féin's proposal - and indeed that of their own Minister for media - for direct Exchequer funding.

Deputy Brian Stanley

We should not have any further delay in reform of the licence fee and funding for RTÉ. This is for the future of RTÉ. The Government has dithered on this and cannot seem to reach an agreement. Sinn Féin's motion proposes an end to the licence fee model to be replaced with direct Exchequer funding for sustainable public sector broadcasting. RTÉ has already been given ad hoc bailouts without it being put on an accountable or properly sustainable basis. The financial scandals at RTÉ over the last 12 months have followed years of financial uncertainty.

Public trust and confidence in our national broadcaster is, unfortunately, at an all-time low. We must restore that trust and confidence because we need public sector broadcasting, not just by RTÉ but also across the regional stations. It is important that we do so.

More than 13,000 people, a staggering number, were brought before the courts last year for non-payment of the licence fee. Millions of euro are being lost every year in the gap between people who are and are not paying. The current system is broken and we need to rebuild trust. Sinn Féin is calling, crucially, for RTÉ to be audited annually by the Comptroller and Auditor General and to be fully accountable to the Committee of Public Accounts. We have had enough of poor governance, appalling oversight and appalling mismanagement of finances at RTÉ. It is essential that we undertake this reform. If RTÉ is to continue as a semi-commercial organisation, it needs to start behaving like one. It must increase its commercial revenue with proper oversight and management of it.

In calling for the scrapping of the television licence fee, we are proposing that public service broadcasting be directly funded, including local, regional and independent broadcasters, in respect of their content that is deemed to be public sector broadcasting. Norway and many other European countries have moved in a similar direction. Crucially, this change is in line with the recommendations of the independent media commission in 2020. The Minister commissioned that report and it has just been sitting there. All we see is disagreement on it within the Government, with Ministers talking in three or four different directions.

We are proposing a fairer system. Funding public service broadcasting from general taxation will ensure everyone pays, with those on the highest incomes contributing the most as with any other public service. There has been enough delay by the Government. Sinn Féin is calling on Members to support our proposals to abolish the licence fee, put an accountable system in place and ensure we have a directly funded, neutral and independent public sector broadcasting system.

Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh

Níl muinín ag pobal na hÉireann in RTÉ, faraor. Ní raibh muinín ag pobal na Gaeilge in RTÉ riamh. I bhfad sular tháinig an cur amú dochreidte airgid chun solais anuraidh, bhí daoine ann a dhiúltaigh ceadúnas teilifíse a íoc toisc go raibh RTÉ ag brú an Béarla amháin ar mhuintir na hÉireann seachas an Ghaeilge. Ach go háirithe, bhí sé á bhrú ar cheantair Ghaeltachta. Chaith leithéidí Brian Ó Baoill, Íte Ní Chionnaith agus Seán Ó Dálaigh seal i bpríosúin toisc nach raibh sé sásúil dóibh nach raibh ach 2% de chláir RTÉ i nGaeilge. Nochtadh i dtuarascáil an Choimisinéara Teanga in 2019 nach bhfuil fiú 1% dá chláir i nGaeilge. Níor chomhlíon RTÉ a dhualgas reachtúil i leith na teanga náisiúnta riamh. Ní haon ionadh nach bhfuil daoine sásta íoc as seirbhís a dhéanann neamhaird ar a gcúraimí faoin dlí. Chaith RTÉ na céadta míle ar talent shows, top talent, flip flops agus a leithéid ach diúltaíonn sé fiú an pá céanna a íoc dá n-oibrithe le Gaeilge as an obair chéanna. Diúltaíonn sé an pá céanna a íoctar dóibh siúd a oibríonn as Béarla a íoc dóibh siúd a oibríonn le Gaeilge. Tá sé náireach. Teastaíonn cothrom na Féinne ó Ghaeilgeoirí. Táimid fós ag fanacht ar stáisiún raidió i nGaeilge don dream óg. Tá TG4 ag déanamh éachta ar an bhfíorbheagán maoinithe i gcomparáid le RTÉ agus fiú S4C na Breataine Bige, a fhaigheann i bhfad Éireann níos mó maoiniú chun freastal ar phobal teanga níos lú. Níor chuir TG4 airgead amú riamh ar nós RTÉ agus is é TG4 atá thíos leis ó thaobh buiséid de. De réir rún Shinn Féin, beidh Coimisiún na Meán in ann ciste meán nua a dháileadh ar bhealach níos cothroime agus beidh deis aige a chinntiú go ndéanfar freastal ar phobal na Gaeilge mar is cóir faoi dheireadh.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

There is no doubt that the financial scandals in RTÉ have rocked people's trust and confidence in both the national broadcaster and the television licence system. The drip-feed of information from RTÉ has caused huge reputational damage and displayed a level of abuse of the trust taxpayers placed in it from which it will take a long time, if ever, to recover. From the Toy Show The Musical debacle to flip-flops, not one person is seen to be held accountable for the incredible waste of public money. The public now wants to see decisive action taken. People have simply had enough between the mixed messages and the almost untouchable mentality in the upper echelons of RTÉ.

In recent years, other countries have moved from licence fees to general Exchequer-based funding. We can learn from those countries. The Sinn Féin motion is a workable proposal. What we are proposing has been well done elsewhere and it can be done here too. The TV licence as we know it has got to go. It is out of date, it does not align with the needs of public service content creators or broadcasters and it is not delivering value for money for taxpayers. We need a model that delivers and sustains vibrant and diverse public sector broadcasting and an independent media sector. The Sinn Féin proposal to abolish the licence fee and instead directly invest Exchequer funding in a platform-neutral media fund would support RTÉ and TG4 as well as the public service content production and activities of commercial, local and community providers. It would provide multi-annual funding. There would be an independent body to advise on the funding requirements and, importantly, there would be Government accountability for any deviation from the advice received. Deviation would only be permissible in exceptional circumstances. TG4 currently operates on a similar model, which gives a clear precedent that this will work.

People will no longer be taken for mugs when it comes to the TV licence. They know they are not getting value for money. This issue has been talked about for far too long. We were talking about it long before the flip-flop scandal or any other scandal broke in RTÉ. It needs to be acted on sooner rather than later. We need to stop talking about it and act on it.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

The drop-off in people paying the television licence fee did not just happen by accident. It is a form of protest. Regardless of whether one agrees with them, people are having their say. It is a protest against the insider culture and unaccountability of the top brass in RTÉ. Even after the story broke and the public anger was clear, those at the top of RTÉ still did not get it. I remember watching as they were questioned by TDs. At one point, a senior executive interrupted a question to say it was not public money being discussed but money from commercial activity. In other words, he was saying "butt out". That told the whole story. The culture of entitlement ran deep and that perverse view is tacitly supported by the Government as it continues to exempt RTÉ from the oversight of the State auditor. I really want the Minister to address why RTÉ does not come under the remit of the Comptroller and Auditor General. When I asked the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, that question last week, he gave no concrete answer other than that there was no intention to do it. I am of the absolutely firm belief that where public money is being spent, there needs to be accountability. I think the Minister, Deputy Martin, will agree with me on that.

It is clear now that we have no alternative but to end the television licence fee. The general taxation system funds public services. Public broadcasting does not need a separate fee. It all comes from the pockets of the same hard-pressed families. The Government has spent months sending out mixed messages. The Minister knows that. She has said the money should come out of Exchequer funding but the Taoiseach is saying one thing and other Ministers are saying another. It is within the Minister's gift to bring all of this to a halt right now. We all agree on one thing, which is that the system is not fit for purpose. It is a question of when we make the change.

I offer one example of what is happening. My colleague Deputy Ellis was made aware of a case where a woman in a nursing home is being brought to court because she was too ill to pay her licence fee. The Minister has an opportunity to do something about this system that is not fit for purpose. The excuses the Government has come up with today are off the wall. We have shown clearly how we can have independence and how things can be done to address the system as it is. The one thing that is sure is that it has to be sorted. We can sort it now.

Deputy Seán Crowe

No one would argue that the current situation and the institutional culture in RTÉ are healthy, acceptable or sustainable. The deficit in TV licence revenue last year indicates that some 120,000 people have chosen not to renew their licence. I cannot blame them. Financial scandals at RTÉ rocked people's trust and confidence in the national broadcaster and the television licence system.

Rampant misuse of funding, salary top-ups and a flagrant disregard for oversight are some of the charges that could be laid against RTÉ. Its behaviour before the Oireachtas committee, as Members mentioned, was equally unacceptable. Getting to the truth was like getting blood with a stone with evasion and half-truths being the standard response to TDs and Senators performing their oversight role for a broadcaster that is in receipt of tens of millions of Irish taxpayers' money through the licence fee every year. This behaviour threatens to undermine RTÉ as an institution at possibly the worst time.

Ireland needs a vibrant and properly funded public broadcaster. A vibrant, diverse, financially sustainable and independent media sector is critical to any well-functioning democracy. We have seen how mainstream mass misinformation and disinformation have become in many countries, as well as the severe impact that this can have on society.

It is not just news and current affairs that we need a strong public broadcaster to provide and protect. Irish culture and sport equally need an outlet. We are a small country with a rich and vibrant heritage. We are told we are a nation of storytellers. We should not let others tell our stories for us. We cannot lose more weekends of Irish sport behind the paywalls at a time of increasingly high costs of living. Our young Irish sports stars deserve to be seen by as wide an audience as possible, whether it is on the GAA pitch, the running track or a cycling route. Ireland needs RTÉ to be vibrant, financially sustainable and independent but it cannot continue on as it has done in the past where public money is treated like a piggy bank with no oversight and no consequences for its misuse.

Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media (Deputy Catherine Martin)

I move amendment No. 2:

To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:

"recognises:

— the vital role which the media sector, and in particular, our public service broadcasters, Radio Telefís Éireann (RTÉ) and TG4, play in supporting our cultural development, societal wellbeing, and the functioning of our democracy;

— the importance of ensuring sustainable funding to support our public service broadcasters (RTÉ and TG4), as well as public service content provided by community, commercial and local broadcasters, newspapers and online media platforms;

— the significant contribution which the Exchequer already makes to funding public service media content;

acknowledges:

— that the Government is committed to the introduction of a new sustainable and fair funding model during its term of office, and to giving due consideration to all funding options, including direct Exchequer funding;

— that whatever model is agreed upon and implemented will be designed to safeguard the vital independence of public service media as currently provided for in the Broadcasting Act;

— that there is a legal obligation on those who own a television set to have a television licence, and that any amnesty would be inherently unfair on those who are compliant with this obligation;

— that the licence fee currently brings significant benefits to Irish society, not only through the funding of RTÉ, but through its funding of the Sound and Vision Scheme which is available to all broadcasters and is a significant support for the independent production sector;

— that in response to the controversies which have arisen at RTÉ since June 2023, the Government has established two Expert Advisory Committees to lead independent reviews of Governance and Culture at RTÉ, and into Contractor Fees, Human Resources and other matters in RTÉ; and

— that it would be inappropriate and premature to introduce any new funding model prior to the completion of the independent reviews into RTÉ, and in the absence of recommendations which will inform the continued reform of corporate governance, internal control and organisational culture at RTÉ, and which will contribute to the necessary restoration of trust in RTÉ.".

Ba mhian liom frithrún an Rialtais a tháirgeadh ar chealú an cheadúnais teilifíse agus iarraim ar an Teach seo tacú leis. I would like to begin by saying that I welcome this opportunity to address the House on the issues raised, particularly at this critical time for our national broadcaster and for the future of public service media in Ireland.

Events of recent times, and indeed today's debate, serve as a worthwhile opportunity to acknowledge the importance of public service media in our society. It has a vital role in supporting cultural development, societal well-being and the functioning of a healthy democracy. It not only informs, educates, and entertains; it promotes social cohesion and enhances political and cultural citizenship. Public service media serves all of society, one and all. That is the very essence of public service media. It serves the public and it is independent of commercial or political influences. Access to an impartial, trustworthy and independent media is now more important than ever, particularly as we witness the growth of disinformation and misinformation, which is undermining public confidence in news and information. We must, therefore, support the sustainability and development of public service media in Ireland. We are all agreed on that and I am pleased that Sinn Féin recognises the value of public service broadcasting.

A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, despite many differences in the detail of the motion which has been proposed, I am heartened to see that there is some common ground among Deputies on this matter. I too agree that serious consideration needs to be given to the option of a direct Exchequer funding model to replace the current TV licence fee system and I have said this previously. A taxation-based system is fairer, more effective, more stable and better future-proofed.

Of course, as with any future funding option, the safeguarding of public service media from political interference and the ensuring of its independence are of paramount importance. As outlined by the Future of Media Commission, safeguarding measures can be put in place and have been put in place in other countries. The role of a separate, independent, regulatory body is key to securing this. It would oversee and assess funding arrangements that would also be set on multi-annual basis to avoid the budgetary process. In the Irish context, our new regulator, Coimisiún na Meán, would be well placed to carry out this function. I note that Sinn Féin agrees with me on this. Indeed, only yesterday when it was launching its policy, it called for the regulator to be put on a statutory footing. I have good news for Sinn Féin on that front as it seems to have missed the fact that Coimisiún na Meán is a full statutory body established 12 months ago under the Online Safety and Media Regulation Act.

Taxation- or Exchequer-based funding models are predominant in Europe when compared to a licence-based model. It is worth noting that there is at present nearly 60% in direct Exchequer investment in public service media in Ireland. This includes direct funding of €57 million to TG4, approximately €70 million in respect of free TV licences to recipients of household benefits packages and interim funding to RTÉ amounting to €40 million for this year. While a precedent certainly has been set for using direct Exchequer funding for public service media in Ireland, whatever the future funding model, and there are advantages and disadvantages to all, it must not just safeguard the independence of media. We must also ensure that it provides sustainability of funding and that it achieves a level of public acceptability. This was also noted by the Future of Media Commission and is challenging though possible.

It is not a decision, however, to be made lightly or quickly without proper planning and due deliberation. That is why the Government is rightly considering all options. We must ensure that it is done right. We must be sure that it is sustainable and that it is fair to all. We must ensure that it is truly in the public interest. We must ensure that it provides certainty and stability to public service broadcasters, to commercial and local broadcasters and those in the independent sector, as well as local, regional and national print media, all of which provide vital public service content such as Irish language, news, the arts and children’s programming.

Abolishing the licence fee is not a new proposal. With the transformational change in media consumption, the model is clearly outdated. We knew this even before the RTÉ crisis erupted. That is why this Government set up the Future of Media Commission in 2020. That is why this Government accepted in principle the recommendation to replace the TV licence. That is why this Government is committed to addressing the issue and to making the decision, where other Governments have failed to do so. However, abolishing it with immediate effect, as Sinn Féin is proposing, is both reckless and irresponsible. Members of the public, through their licence fee, provided over €123 million of funding for public service broadcasting in Ireland in 2023. That was not just funding to RTÉ but also was to the sound and vision scheme, which is available to all broadcasters and is a significant support for the independent production sector. Replacing it will require legislative change and this will take some time. Sinn Féin has no real plan as to how this necessary funding will be replaced tomorrow, were it to be abolished immediately, as is that party's wish. This is reckless in the extreme and is not the way to provide the stability and certainty which is needed, particularly by the staff in RTÉ.

It is also not taking into account the need to ensure that the process of reform within RTÉ continues and is completed, particularly in respect of the organisation’s governance and culture. This is fundamental to restoring trust in the public service broadcaster. There is no future without trust and there can be no trust without reform. It would be inappropriate and premature, therefore, to introduce any new funding model before we receive recommendations from the two independent expert advisory groups set up by the Government. The completion of these reviews into governance, culture, HR and other matters in RTÉ is expected shortly. They will inform the necessary and continued reform of corporate governance, internal control and organisational culture, as well as contributing to the necessary restoration of trust in the organisation. They will support a more transparent and fair way of dealing with staff and contractors.

The Government is committed to ensuring greater accountability and governance at RTÉ. That is why this Government acted on the Future of Media Commission recommendation and both RTÉ and TG4 are now designated bodies in respect of NewERA. As Minister, this provides me with access to the expert financial and commercial advisory services that NewERA can provide. I note that Sinn Féin proposes to bring RTÉ under the remit of the Comptroller and Auditor General. This is certainly worthy of consideration but again, let us wait to see if this emerges as a recommendation from the independent reviews from the expert advisory committees.

The Government has been clear that it is committed to the reform of the TV licence system and a decision will be made by this Government but only when these two final expert committee reports are received. That is the sensible and wise course of action. That is what the public expects and deserves, namely, full reform and restoration of trust. The populist approach to the future funding model proposed by Sinn Féin is to only scrap the licence fee overnight. It is shortsighted, reckless, ill-considered and a mere political ploy. The considered approach, which incorporates reform and rebuilding trust in RTÉ, is the right approach. It is in the best interest of all.

Sinn Féin is also proposing to extend an amnesty to those who have not paid their TV licence. What of those who have paid and intend to pay; all 825,000 of them last year? Is it not deeply unfair to those who have paid?

There is no doubt that the TV licence model is regressive but an amnesty is not the solution. It is replacing one level of unfairness with another. What of the importance of public service media? Surely an amnesty only serves to demean its value. The TV licence fee is a legal obligation. Not only is it the law, it is, for now and until a new model is legislated for, the only mechanism through which our valued public service media is funded. I again urge anyone liable to purchase a TV licence to ensure they do so, to ensure the public service content, including that on commercial and local broadcasters, continues to be supported.

Let us look at the Sinn Féin proposal for future funding. Questions arise about the quantum of Exchequer funding that Sinn Féin is proposing. Yesterday, Sinn Féin launched its policy to abolish the TV licence and fund public service media with an additional €140 million from the Exchequer. If Sinn Féin means €140 million in addition to the €69 million for free licences and the €57 million for TG4, then that brings us to a total of €266 million, which would be in the region of €30 million short of the Future of Media Commission recommended level. There is simply no way you can support all of public service media with that level of funding. Perhaps Sinn Féin has mistakenly included this year's emergency €40 million funding in its calculations. Either way, it does not add up. Where is Sinn Féin's provision for the platform-neutral media fund, which was recommended by the Future of Media Commission? It recommended €30 million for this fund. I note that Sinn Féin's motion indicates that it wishes to provide for the wider media sector but it appears to be falling short in financial terms. There seem to be more questions than answers in Sinn Féin's proposal.

While I welcome the importance of this evening's debate and the value Sinn Féin places on public service media, changing the future funding model must be done in a planned and considered way to ensure it is sustainable, acceptable, independent and future-proof. I believe we have more that unites us than divides us on this matter and I am determined to ensure that this is decided upon once and for all in the lifetime of this Government. The sooner the better as far as I am concerned. I look forward to a positive debate and greatly value the input Deputies make to the ongoing discussion.

Deputy Réada Cronin

I listened to the Minister's speech with interest. I believe she is aware there is a huge level of public anger in her constituency and mine about RTÉ. People on six-figure salaries are flouncing and swanning around and refusing to come before a committee while at the same time, ordinary people are being prosecuted and dragged into court for not paying their TV licence. It is all at what cost? It is all while RTÉ carries on with its casino culture of pet projects, golden handshakes, cosy chats, nods and notes, winks and deals and cards and parks. It is all while hardworking, well respected journalists are barely getting by and women found it difficult to even sort out their maternity leave. It is an absolute disgrace. I cite the great work done by Martin McMahon on the issue of bogus self-employment, which is a major issue for RTÉ. This work must be addressed by the State and in public because there were serious public actions using serious public funds.

Despite all this, it is shocking that the Government wants to persist with business as usual and prosecuting people for not paying their TV licence. I know the Minister does not agree with that because she basically said so. It is peevish and unnecessary. Right now, 60 people a day are being prosecuted. They are jamming up the courts and wasting court resources. Justice is delayed for everybody else, while people are voting with their feet regarding the TV licence. I was talking about this on my local radio station this morning, Kfm. Kfm does outstanding public service broadcasting and provides real community service, even if that meant losing a sponsorship over a local nursing home where it covered the HIQA report and the nursing home contacted it to say it would withdraw its advertisements. This is what we need, namely, broadcasting we can trust amidst so much misinformation and disinformation. Will the Minister stop flogging a dead horse and get rid of the TV licence?

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

Trust and confidence in RTÉ and the TV licence model is at a low ebb and has been for a long time. The recent scandals that have come out of RTÉ have only exacerbated this loss of trust. This motion is about ending a system that is not working and that imposes an annual fee of €160 regardless of household income. It is about replacing this archaic system with one that is workable, sustainable and fair and that is fit for purpose in the modern era. The number of households opting not to pay the TV licence last year was double the rate of 2022. Last year, a startling one in four households decided not to purchase a TV licence. While the recent crisis at RTÉ has shown that change is needed in the organisation, change is needed in the whole funding model.

Exchequer funding should be provided through a platform-neutral media fund to support public service media content production. Local community providers, such as Lyric FM in Limerick should be supported. Lyric FM is the station that RTÉ tried to scrap not too long ago. It is a wonderful station with some fantastic shows and music. I am proud to have such a station broadcasting from Limerick. It is my hope that its programme schedule can be enhanced further. It goes without saying that it can be delivered cheaper in the regions than simply concentrating on Dublin 4. Members of this House will have received an email from Screen Producers Ireland today, which is supportive of this change we propose.

Sixty people a day are facing prosecution for not paying with an incredible 13,000 summonses before the courts on this issue alone in 2023. Surely there are better things that overstretched courts could spend their time on more efficiently than that. We do not only want to see the change in the funding model but we need to see and hear different voices on our media. We need to hear more working-class voices about their life experiences. We need to see urban estates not just when something is wrong but to highlight those tremendous communities and the resilience and all the good which emanates from them, which is sadly often missing from RTÉ.

This is a sensible motion the Government should support. It echoes a recommendation of the Future of Media Commission report. I urge all Members of the House to support it.

Deputy Denise Mitchell

The issue of publicly funded media has been a live one for a number of years but actions have been slow in coming. The Future of Media Commission report in 2022 recommended that public service media be funded from the public purse. This motion essentially backs up that recommendation. We want to see the TV licence scrapped. Since the multiple scandals in RTÉ became public, people have become cynical and non-payment of the TV licence has rocketed. A diverse, independent and financially sustainable media sector is important in any normal, functional, democratic society. We look at TG4, which has shown that direct public funding does not impact on content. It is a model that we should be following to address the current funding crisis in RTÉ. There is a long way to go to restore public confidence in RTÉ, but this will ensure transparency on how public money is spent.

The fact is that the TV licence needs to go. We cannot continue to ignore the elephant in the room. We cannot continue with the current model. The Government knows this and there has been some kite-flying in recent weeks. We are presenting an obvious solution to the Government tonight. I hope the Government will see sense and support it

Deputy Pauline Tully

There is an urgent need to deliver sustainable public sector broadcasting and an independent media sector. The Future of Media Commission was clear in its report and recommendation that direct Exchequer funding is the best model for a modern public service media organisation. The financial scandals at RTÉ have rocked people's trust and confidence in the national broadcaster and the TV licence fee. The number of people refusing to pay the fee has soared in the aftermath of these scandals and 60 people per day are facing prosecution for non-payment. Some 13,000 people were summonsed before the courts last year, while no one has been held to account for the incredible waste of public money at RTÉ.

Concerns have been raised by some about direct Exchequer funding to the effect that it could threaten the independence of RTÉ but I do not agree that it would. There is precedent in other countries, which have moved from licence fees to general Exchequer-based funding. TG4, our own Irish-language national broadcaster, is already funded directly by Exchequer funding. It is legislated for in the Broadcasting Act 2009, has an independently appointed board and is scrutinised by the Oireachtas. We also have the media fund in Coimisiún na Meán, which supports public service media programming across various broadcasters, both public service media and commercial.

We need to draw a line under a system that is clearly not working. We need to put in place a sustainable and working system that is fit for purpose, fair to people and appropriate for the modern era.

The existing funding model is unfair on many levels. It is a regressive charge. Moving to general taxation means that nobody will have to pay a fee in the future and everyone will contribute towards public service media in accordance with their ability to do so. The public wants decisive action on this. Sinn Féin would scrap the TV licence and fund RTÉ and other public service media through direct Exchequer funding.

Deputy Patricia Ryan

We are all more than aware of the huge financial scandal at RTÉ and the equally significant lack of accountability those responsible have faced. For the Government to expect people to continue to pay a licence fee in the wake of RTÉ's barefaced squandering of public money, with zero accountability, is a staggering and absolute breach of trust and public confidence. It is disgraceful to think that 13,000 people alone faced court proceedings last year for not having a TV licence when RTÉ was spending thousands of euro of public money on flip-flops, among other things, with no oversight or accountability.

A new model of funding is not only required: it is an absolute essential to foster and grow the vibrant, diverse, public sector broadcasting and independent media sector the Irish people deserve. In order to restore confidence in the broadcasting service we must do this. Sinn Féin's proposal for a platform-neutral media fund, directly funded by the Exchequer, would support RTÉ and TG4, provide for public service content production at local and community level and pave the way for immediate abolition of the licence fee system. Costly prosecution proceedings would no longer be necessary, with legal amnesty for those who have not paid their licence fee. The Minister has already discussed that. We need trustworthy, transparent and sustainable public sector broadcasting and independent media sectors that are directly funded by the Exchequer. Sinn Féin's proposal makes that possible.

It is time for the Government and the Minister to grasp the nettle, scrap the TV licence and fund RTÉ and other public service media through direct Exchequer funding. I urge all in the House to support the motion.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I thank Sinn Féin for bringing forward the motion. However, the Labour Party will not support it. I have been around a while. This motion is probably one of the most amateur I have seen, which surprises me. I say that with all sincerity. Frankly, it is a crazy motion that is not very well written. There are lots of holes in it. The figures, and the Minister alluded to this, do not add up as regards supplying the adequate amount of funding that would be required for public service broadcasting. I am wondering why Sinn Féin put down the motion. It seems its members have been spooked in some way on this matter. Things have not been going as good as normal for them lately. It seems they have thrown a dead fish on the table to try to divert attention in some way and get back to their old populist ways-----

(Interruptions).

Deputy Alan Kelly

-----which is rather unfortunate.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Alan Kelly

I will let ye speak lads. Do not try to shout me down. It will not work.

This amateur, populist way is not what Ireland needs right now. It is not what the taxpayer or those who believe in public service broadcasting, such as the Labour Party, believe is needed. At the end of the day, things have to be paid for. Populist nonsense in this country-----

Deputy Thomas Gould

Like water charges. Let us not forget.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Are you finished?

Deputy Thomas Gould

Yes.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Populist nonsense in this country will get us nowhere. Sinn Féin do not want pay for carbon tax, household charges, property tax and now the TV licence. Where will it end? This one big pot of taxation paying for everything is not sustainable. It is not a left-wing position that is credible in a modern democracy. It is simply not credible. Sinn Féin needs to learn that lesson once and for all. It will not work.

The issue for the Minister is that the Government's position is not sustainable either because it does not have a position. It would have been better off not putting forward the countermotion - at least we could vote on the Sinn Féin motion - because it does not have a position. It is quite obvious there are issues in the Government. It is quite obvious there are issues between the Green Party and probably Fianna Fáil on this issue. That is not sustainable either. For members of the Government to come to the House and not have a united front is not acceptable.

I also worry about workers. I wonder did Sinn Féin consult with the Communications Workers Union, CWU, on this populist move. CWU members have been ringing us, and I presume Sinn Féin, as they are worried about hundreds of jobs in An Post in Dublin, which will no longer exist if we go down the road outlined in the motion. Maybe Sinn Féin should talk to some of its TD colleagues in Dublin. It will be told about the phone calls I presume they received from the CWU in the past 48 hours. We listened to the CWU members and we understand them.

The Labour Party supports public service broadcasting. We have a long tradition of that. It was a Labour Party Minister, the current Uachtarán, who created TG4. Look at what a success that has been. "Laochra Gael" is one of my favourite programmes across all channels. Pound for pound, it is one of the best programmes I have seen made. I also have a concern, however, regarding how the jobs of independent workers and programme makers, those who are commissioned to do this work, are being dealt with and how, if the motion were passed, given the fact it is not structured right, it is not possible, it is populist and it does not provide the most adequate funds that are necessary, those jobs would be sustainable. I do not think they would be sustainable. I would be very concerned about many of those workers who do that work, and live and work near me, if a policy such as this were to be put in overnight.

As the Minister knows, when the issues with RTÉ broke, I spent days of my life going through them. I will not recycle them all. I will say that Kevin Bakhurst is doing a decent job. He is bringing workers with him. I know he has made mistakes. I have had issues with him that are well publicised but, broadly speaking, RTÉ is going in a certain direction. However, when the issues kicked off, the fact the Minister was not absolute in July last year in telling people they should pay their licence fee was not acceptable from a Minister in charge of communications. That wobble has probably brought us to today. We needed a Minister to be stronger at that time.

I also believe that we need to look more broadly at how we fund public sector broadcasting, which includes the independent sector. I respect the new proposals being brought forward and their proportionality as they relate to independent radio and everything else. That needs to be strengthened but it also needs to come with very strict conditions. We also need to look at the area of social media. I do not have enough time to go into that but that needs to be brought into it as well. The proportion of commercial funding, approximately 45%, which is currently required by RTÉ for it to stay standing, is not sustainable. I and the Labour Party accept the model has to change, but I will point out one simple thing on which I disagree with previous speakers. We would be very concerned if RTÉ were exclusively Exchequer funded because, at the end of the day, that will come to the floor of the House to be voted on. If RTÉ, TG4 or other receivers of such funding were to be highly critical of the government of the day, and it had the majority, that funding level could be dropped. A power lever would be brought into that relationship that concerns the Labour Party quite a bit. That is something we need to think about.

I will also raise another fact. The bringing of sporting events into the Act, which I accept and think is a good idea, is out for review, although a few of those sporting events are missing.

However, as the son of two parents in their mid 80s, I would rather see a funding mechanism that ensures they can watch GAA matches that are not behind a paywall on GAAGO. Whatever model is brought in, if it needs an extra €2 or an extra fiver, can we please deal with GAAGO and the League of Ireland? Someone needs to look at why the League of Ireland gets so little money for its contract with RTÉ. It is a surprise that TNT Sports or Sky Sports have not whipped it up, given the pervasive level of gambling and the need for matches. It is a wonder they have not snapped that up for reasons of exclusivity.

I bring up the issue of bogus self employment. I spoke about this at the Committee of Public Accounts. I will say this about the fact that 700 individuals are being treated the way they are, and that RTÉ has said it will take 15 years to sort out. The proposed €20 million that is possibly being put out to solve this issue will not come within an ass's roar of sorting it, and 15 years is not acceptable. We need a greater mechanism. We all know what happened. It was unacceptable. We need a greater mechanism to deal with that.

I hope the Minister takes on board what I am saying in a balanced way. We will not be supporting this motion. We do not agree with it. In fact, we think it is pretty comical. However, the Government does not have a position on RTÉ and public sector funding, and that is not acceptable either. This issue in Government between the Minister, the Tánaiste and others needs to be sorted out immediately. It needs to be sorted out immediately. When it is sorted out, we need proposals to come from Government in particular after the two reports commissioned on RTÉ have been brought forward. We need a sustainable plan from Government and a sustainable plan for the future funding of public service broadcasting on RTÉ. The one being put forward today is unfortunately not one, and neither has the Government to date brought forward one that we can judge.

Deputy Gary Gannon

I move amendment No. 1 to amendment No. 2:

To delete all words after "recognises" and substitute the following:

"— public service journalism - accurate and impartial reporting in the public interest – is a central pillar of Irish society and democracy;

— confidence in Radio Telefís Éireann (RTÉ) has reached an all-time low as a result of successive scandals, undermining public trust in the institution; and

— the spread of misinformation and disinformation is growing exponentially on social media platforms and having a malign impact on the media ecosystem and damaging our democracy;

acknowledges that:

— public trust in RTÉ can only be remedied by RTÉ reforming its governance structures, and fully committing to transparency and accountability in relation to the controversies that have beset it;

— forcing RTÉ to rely on the Exchequer for its entire budget creates the risk of political influence being exerted on its reporting and funding shortfalls during periods of economic shock;

— social media platforms have done little to stem the tide of dangerous misinformation and disinformation on their platforms;

— the spread of vile misinformation and disinformation online increases the need for strong public service journalism;

— a 'polluter pays' principle should be applied to those social media companies disseminating poisonous misinformation and disinformation;

— the notion of a 'Television Licence fee' is outdated given the expansion of streaming on laptops, tablets, phones etc.; and

— the collection of the Television Licence fee is not a matter for the Revenue Commissioners, as it is a charge and not a tax; and

calls on the Government to:

— adopt a three-stranded funding model for public service broadcasting and journalism, consisting of:

— a levy on social media companies;

— a household Public Service Journalism charge, charged at a lower rate than the existing television licence fee; and

— multi-annual Exchequer funding;

— ensure the independence of RTÉ is strictly maintained; and

— support the reform of RTÉ as an institution so that public confidence in the organisation is restored.".

I thank Sinn Féin for bringing this motion forward. We all believe it is important to reflect on what can only be described as a turbulent time for public service broadcasting. With that in mind, I am not sure that either Sinn Féin or Deputy Gould in his introduction have presented the case for why we should support this motion. The past few years have seen an abdication of duty by those in charge of RTÉ, which has led to public confidence in the broadcaster plummeting to new lows. Scandal breeds discontent and I do not blame anyone whose trust has been broken, and who feels betrayed and cheated by a service which was intended to serve but to this point has failed as a public service broadcaster. No shows at the Committee of Public Accounts, the withholding of crucial information under investigation, the hesitant admittance of secret payments, shady deals and more generally the gross misuse of public funding have rightfully led many to be outraged at the prospect of trusting that body with their money in future.

As one of many public servants who regularly engage with RTÉ, we engaged with staff members and to feel the absence of trust in their eyes compounded things. Those hard grafting journalists and administrative staff were betrayed by contracts that were found to be in breach of guidelines on employment status, denying access to sick leave, pensions, maternity leave and more. It is for all of these reasons and more that reflection is overdue and, while overdue, I am not sure it is catered for in the motion Sinn Féin has brought forward tonight. The Social Democrats believes that public service broadcasting has never been more important, as reflected in our amendment to the Government's amendment to this motion. We are living in an age of falsehoods in abundance, and which are hard to find. Within a space where truth itself is so hard to discover we bring forward an amendment that is not based in easy answers. Our amendment has a modicum of difficulty, but we believe it is more authentic to the space. The Social Democrats believes public service broadcasting has never been more important. The rapid rise of misinformation and disinformation on social media is a real threat to our democracy. It is a threat that can be combated by a service that educates the populace with veracity and correctness. The verification journalist Eliot Higgins has stated that, "The ramifications of disinformation spill onto the streets with tangible, often devastating real world consequences." He has been credited as the godfather of online open-source verification and has been writing about the threats we face for more than ten years.

Bad actors attack the reputation of traditional news sources like RTÉ in tandem with their manipulation of false narratives, which combine into a crisis of confidence. Where do we look? Who do we trust? Do we trust those who seek to sue our national broadcaster, or do we seek to believe in a better veracity of what we consider to be public service broadcasting? The void left is the reason we need public service broadcasting now more than ever. The Social Democrats broadly supports progress and reform. Today we are concerned by some of the proposals we have been presented with. First, designating all responsibility for funding RTÉ to the Exchequer clearly presents a real threat to its output. You cannot step way from that. If you want to give full responsibility for RTÉ's output to the State, you cannot step away from that fact. I do not for a second believe that Deputy Gould is somebody who would interfere, but nor can we step away when we look at what is happening in Europe and the US. A government after us may be complicit in that sort of that behaviour. We are not legislating for this moment. We are legislating for the decades to come. Such a move would render the organisation incredibly vulnerable, and leave it high and dry and at the mercy of future governments. If there is an accusation against a next or future government, we cannot trust that any future government would not neglect public service broadcasting for one reason or another. It is not about us or what comes after us. It is about the generations beyond that. We do not legislate for the moment. We legislate for the decades to come. I cannot step away from that. I believe Deputy Gould to be a good, genuine and honourable public servant to whom I often look. However, neither he nor I will be around forever. That is why we cannot tie ourselves to that for an eternity.

The Social Democrats believes it should remain a multiannual model of partial funding, which already exists as public service funding. The level of funding and the direction of its allocation should be regularly reviewed, especially given the current state of affairs in RTÉ and the fact that normality will not return unless a substantial body of work is conducted towards rebuilding strength, confidence and so on. We propose that the Exchequer should act as one of a three-stranded approach to funding RTÉ, as outlined in our amendment to the Government's amendment. The second could be provided by a social media company levy. I do not believe that is catered for in the motion. It does not take into account the fact that the Elon Musks of the world have a responsibility here. We should not negate ourselves from challenging them head on and eye-to-eye. Too often in this Chamber, we regulate ourselves to the Westminsterisation of Sinn Féin versus the Government. We have to see beyond that to the Elon Musk, Twitter and Facebook. We aim to see them as people we need to target within the space. The proliferation of misinformation and disinformation is in many ways a problem of these companies' creation. If these companies are unwilling to do their part a levy should be applied to them as a contribution to public service broadcasting, so we may mount a defence against the chaos and noise that flashes by our screens every day. That is my problem with Deputy Gould's motion. It does not take that into account. I do not discount that the Deputy views politics as few do on his side of the Chamber. We talk about public service broadcasting, but this probably goes beyond that and we need to take that into account in terms of how we legislate. We have to legislate for companies like Twitter, X and Facebook. Public service broadcasting must exist as a bastion of trust in Irish society.

For that to happen, RTÉ must act in a way that garners the public's trust. It failed in this and it will take a sea change in attitudes to restore the esteem in which it was once held. My parents and grandparents listened to the 1 o'clock show to get their information. That has probably changed a little bit now. They are on Facebook, etc. There is a growing abstention from fee paying as a result of dissatisfaction. The only way to encourage those who are unwilling to pay is to prove that RTÉ will be reformed in a manner that is deserving of public trust and funds. I listen to the shows and I see the kinds of broadcasters who take part in the shows. I believe in the people who believe in RTÉ in many ways but those who were charged with its governance failed them. We also need to look at that.

I fundamentally believe what the Sinn Féin motion lacks is a social media levy. We cannot step away from that. Our amendment provides for a social media levy as a one of three steps. The funding stream to cut the cost of the fee for consumers is an integral part of our amendment. I hope Sinn Féin will consider it. The Government will vote it down and that is fine. We are considering what comes after.

Making Revenue the bogeyman of licence fee collecting, like some in the House consider, is an action beyond the treatment as a fee. Public service broadcasting should not be a tax. It should not be considered on those grounds. If it is, it will fail everybody and, therefore, that is not the solution. Returning public confidence to pre-scandal levels should not only be a focus; it should be a direction. We should instil a kind confidence in the people whose doors we knock on and say, "When you turn on your telly, you'll get a confidence greater than you'll experience when you turn on your phone to view social media." We need to get into that space. RTÉ has to prove its worth and must fulfil its duties, and the State must ensure this route is taken. While doing that, the State cannot place an undue burden that they have to fill the obligation of the ideology of the State as it exists at that moment. That is a failure of legislation.

Our amendment acknowledges public service journalism - accurate and impartial reporting in the public interest. It is a central pillar of Irish society and democracy. Confidence in RTÉ has reached an all-time low as a result of successive scandals, undermining public trust in the institution. Meanwhile the spread of misinformation and disinformation is growing exponentially on social media platforms and having a malign impact on the media ecosystem and damaging our democracy. There are a multitude of different ways to approach that. Our amendment takes a three-stage approach, a very clearly social democrat approach. I hope Sinn Féin and others across the Chamber will include that. The most important thing is to combat disinformation.

Deputy Paul Murphy

The writing is on the wall for TV licence. That is the reality of what is happening outside this House. Hundreds of thousands of people are voting with their wallets and are boycotting the TV licence fee. As a consequence of that act, there seems to be a very significant debate in government about what is to come next. That is really what we should be focused on today. We should have an acceptance that the TV licence has to go. There should be an amnesty for non-payers. We have set out our point of view in some detail. We need to build RTÉ for the people. We need to invest in public service broadcasting, a 100% publicly funded public service broadcasting, including money to local broadcasters, newspapers and so on. We need a fund that media outlets could apply to and funding provided by taxing the big social media companies and big tech companies with a big-tech tax to raise €1 billion to fund that.

Unfortunately, that is not situation that we are in. Unfortunately, 60 people a day are still being dragged through courts to try to get them to pay the TV licence fee. That figure is going up so it is probably now 70 a day and in a couple of months it could be 80, 90 or 100 a day, clogging up our court system, using a huge amount of resources to try to extract this money that people do not want to pay and are refusing to pay. That needs to stop. There needs to be an amnesty for those who are refusing to pay.

The question arises as to why they are refusing to pay. Obviously, there has always been a level of non-payment but that shot up dramatically after all the scandal that emerged from RTÉ last summer. It was people seeing the €75,000 secret payments to Ryan Tubridy; the €5,000 on flip flops; more than €4,000 on membership of an exclusive club in London; and public money being spent on wining and dining advertising executives. At the same time, ordinary RTÉ workers were facing pay cuts, journalists were forced to record in café toilets and freelancers were paid as little as €120 for a report. People are reacting in protest to that.

They are also reacting, correctly, against what is an unjust tax. Earlier, the Minister referred to it as a regressive tax. That is a scientifically correct term. The poorest family in the country that is eligible to pay pays the same amount for access to RTÉ public service broadcasting as the richest in the country and, therefore, it should be abolished. The objection the Minister raised was that having an amnesty for those who have not paid is unfair on those who have paid. The Government could do what it did on water charges when it was forced to refund the money for those who paid. If that is what it takes for it to be a fair abolition of this licence fee, let us do it.

There is a big danger here. Many right-wing politicians salivated at the prospect of a scandal in RTÉ. Why was that? First, it took focus away from themselves for a little while. They were delighted to have a scandal that did not involve themselves. Second, it provided an opportunity to pursue a pre-existing agenda, which is an anti-public service broadcasting agenda. That is actually what has been happening. In a way we see here an example of a shock doctrine. A crisis comes along and an opportunity to pursue the pre-existing agenda is pursued to cut RTÉ down to size. There have been significant cutbacks. That is what is happening with the prospect of 400 jobs going and privatisation. Who will suffer? It will not be those at the top, those responsible for the corporate culture, governance and so on, but instead ordinary workers in RTÉ and, even more importantly, the public who will lose out through reduced public service broadcasting as a consequence of that. We need an alternative model.

Where did this all come from? At the Oireachtas committee, the RTÉ commercial director, Geraldine O'Leary, spelled it out. She said she was responsible for bringing in revenue of €1.65 billion and said that part of that job is maintaining relationships, that is people selling to people. The rot in RTÉ started with the reliance on advertising revenue - this dual funding model. That is the justification for the deals with Renault and other car companies; the money under the table, effectively, to Ryan Tubridy; and the flip flops. All of that comes from the need to attract advertising revenue.

The alternative is to scrap the regressive TV licence fee. It is to get rid of the reliance on advertising revenue and go for 100% properly publicly funded broadcasting. There should be pay caps with nobody in RTÉ on more than €100,000. We need to democratise the RTÉ board and then make the big social media giants pay for it. The alternative to investing in public service broadcasting is relying on billionaires. They may be billionaires we can agree with a little bit or disagree with a little bit such as Elon Musk, Zuckerberg or whoever else but these are the people determining what kind of news, what kind of information and what kind of entertainment people are getting. In reality, these social media giants are parasites on the media as a whole. We need to tax those and use it to fund a full-spectrum public service broadcasting throughout the country.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

It would be grossly unfair, but it is looking like it may well be the case, that the public and workers who did absolutely nothing wrong will pick up the tab for the scandals that emerged in RTÉ.

They will be collateral damage for the lack of governance and the bad behaviour of some people. That appear to be a likely outcome for hundreds of jobs, not those of the well-paid, high-profile people on obscene salaries, but those of the crew and technical people.

I heard somebody describe it as an upstairs-downstairs culture. I heard in the audiovisual industry an incredible phrase referring to "above-the-line people" and "below-the-line people". The "below-the-line people" will end up being the ones who get it in the neck, with their jobs suppressed. That does not just affect them, but also young people, who the Minister should be concerned about, training in audiovisuals, getting degrees and going to college in all sorts of technical grades, camera work, hair and make-up and all the rest of it. Those jobs are disappearing or being outsourced and privatised.

At the forum the Minister's Department organised last week and for which some of us campaigned long and hard, people working in the film industry referred over and over again to the precarity of their work and the lack of security of income and employment. In one of the places such security existed and where there were career opportunities for people qualified in technical grades in the audiovisual sector and in all the things that make television, their jobs will be suppressed. That will impact on the quality of public sector broadcasting and the range of services such broadcasting provides. Culture, arts, entertainment and music will lose out and be outsourced and privatised.

Who benefits from all of this? As has been said, it is the big private digital corporations which are increasingly coming to control our media and are guilty of at least being conduits for disinformation, hate, division and all sorts of not so great things in our society. None of that means RTÉ was perfect or anything like it. We need reform but at least with a public sector broadcasting system the public has some influence on the situation. If it is all outsourced and privatised, we will have none and the Musks and the social media companies will control our media. That is why we need to scrap the licence and fund public sector broadcasting with a tax on those social media companies.

Deputy Peter Fitzpatrick

People are spending more time than ever consuming information, but in a more fragmented manner, thanks to the development of media gadgets whereby TV content can be seen live, recorded, accessed on demand and accessed via mobile phones, laptops and tablets.

The value of the Irish entertainment and media industry is expected to increase at a 4.53% compound annual growth rate to €6.14 billion by 2026, up from €4.92 billion in 2021. This expansion is being driven mostly by increased Internet availability and a huge rise in Internet advertising.

In Irish life, RTÉ is unique in that, in any given week, 91% of Irish people watch or use its channels or services. This reach extends across television, radio, online, mobile, social media and live events, and provides RTÉ with a unique insight into Irish media viewers. RTÉ currently operates on a dual funding model, with 55% of its income, or €200 million per year, brought in by way of a licence fee which costs Irish households €160 per year.

Public service media is a cornerstone of a healthy society and democracy. It educates, informs and entertains, and research shows that it enhances social, political and cultural citizenship and promotes social cohesion. For this reason, the Future of Media Commission was tasked with making recommendations on sustainable public funding to ensure media in Ireland remains viable, independent and capable of delivering public service aims. RTÉ has previously raised concerns about a funding crisis, calling for reform of the fee and stating that millions were being lost annually by people evading the fee and using the RTÉ Player on phones and tablets.

The commission looked at five options, with commercial-only funding and public-only funding being ruled out for a range of reasons. The commission therefore noted three main funding models, namely, a TV licence, a universal charge or direct Exchequer funding. The Government accepted most of the recommendations, leading to initiatives like the media fund and support for local democracy reporting. However, while the commission recommended the latter option, almost all the significant decision-makers in Government were against the proposal to replace RTÉ’s €200 million a year income from the licence fee with direct State funding. It was the only recommendation of the commission to be rejected outright.

It is time to acknowledge the entire environment has now changed as a result of the RTÉ scandal, which has exacerbated its funding challenges. Governments have failed for too long to address the question of how to fund public service broadcasting. All options need to be considered, taking learning from our international counterparts while considering both ideas put forward by the technical working group and the Future of Media Commission's original recommendations.

We also need to consider the fact that there is a decline in TV licence receipts and a continuing shift in media consumption patterns. For example, the proportion of households without a TV is now over 13% and the figure is increasing. On top of this, due to the ageing population, the number of people qualifying for free licences is increasing, resulting in the Department of Social Protection providing €70 million in free licences per year. Evasion rates for the licence fee were 50% before the recent RTÉ scandal, with figures from the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media showing that total licence fee sales fell by €19.8 million in 2023.

The courts are clogged with prosecutions for TV licence evasion with 60 people per day now facing prosecution for not paying their TV licence. More than 13,000 were summonsed to appear before the courts last year for non-payment, with the numbers facing prosecution since the controversy broke increasing by 33% per month. That figure is expected to rise over the next six months, given the surge in the numbers refusing to buy a licence in the wake of the RTÉ crisis and loss of trust in the broadcaster, which is surely exacerbating the funding crisis.

At the time of the commission report, the Government decided to establish a technical working group to examine options for the reform and enhancement of the current system. However, final decisions have been paused until the reports of the two expert advisory committees into RTÉ have been completed. The reports are expected this month. With that in mind, there is a real opportunity for us to work with the Minister on taking a modern, progressive approach to the funding of RTÉ. It is imperative we deliver a secure and sustainable source of funding. A future funding model must not only put RTÉ on a more sustainable footing but must also support other public service media providers and content producers to continue to provide high-quality public service content for the benefit of our entire society.

We have a lot of creative talent on this island in need of funding to create content, but the people in question often do not get enough. In the past year, we have seen the likes of Cillian Murphy and "An Cailín Ciúin" being nominated for awards to acknowledge that talent. This could become a regular occurrence if we were to implement a fairer, more equitable funding model.

In line with the Future of Media Commission recommendation, Screen Producers Ireland has said the independent sector urgently requires the introduction of a sustainable funding model to permanently replace the outdated licence fee. For example, Denmark started a gradual move away from the licence fee in 2019 before completely abolishing it last year. It now funds its public broadcaster directly from taxation. Screen Producers Ireland believes the sector needs sustainable multi-annual funding through direct Exchequer funding. This is a way of funding public service media across the EU and in the UK. Financing the public component of public service media funding via a taxation approach was adopted by a number of countries across Europe, including Finland, Sweden, Norway and Denmark. A taxation-based model either works as a specifically earmarked charge or as a fully integrated charge whereby public service media is designated as a core expenditure item alongside health and education and funded from general taxation.

According to Professor Brian MacCraith, chair of the Future of Media Commission, an advantage of a taxation approach is that the cost burden for the provision of media content is spread widely across the population.

This model would not explicitly affect individuals directly and, therefore, would likely gain a positive response from the general public. It can be made progressive to deal with the issue of a tax credit for pensioners. It would provide predictability of funding and sustainable funding into the future.

The landscape is very different now than it was when the RTÉ model was set up. Continuing shifts in media consumption patterns need to be accounted for and funded. Most people have a device capable of receiving streaming content, video and radio. If we are to safeguard RTÉ and other public service broadcasters’ independence, some form of media charge needs to be applied. The Minister for media, Deputy Catherine Martin, has said all options for reforming RTÉ’s funding model are on the table, including a new media levy or direct Exchequer funding. People may be reluctant to pay a new media levy, given the current context of cost-of-living pressures and the decline in licence fee compliance. However, we must debate the best options, emphasising the value of public service broadcasting.

We are sovereign in information and culture. For all that we consume and enjoy globally regarding culture and entertainment, we Irish still have our own way of doing things, our own sense of humour and our own brand of creativity. We need to invest in the arts. Centrally, we need a sustainable funding model for the national broadcaster, RTÉ, but the funding model also needs to extend to the likes of TG4, Virgin Media and other media organisations at a national and regional level, including local independent radio and print, which contribute to public service media content. The landscape has changed, which means the model has to change. Overall, it is clear that the recommendations and the comprehensive analysis made by the Future of Media Commission are now even more important and provide a clear blueprint of the options and a rationale for the particular recommendations given. The Government must revisit its decision to reject the Future of Media Commission recommendation. Everything must be on the table, including Exchequer funding.

An Ceann Comhairle

We move to the Rural Independent Group. I call Deputy McGrath, who is sharing with colleagues.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Tá ceist agam don Aire agus don Aire Stáit. I have a question for the Minister and Minister of State: who are you loyal to?

Deputy Dara Calleary

We understand you.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I hope you do, but you do not understand the people and the anger out there about this mess, which affects 13,000 people who were brought to court to be prosecuted for not paying the licence fee.

The content on RTÉ has deteriorated rapidly in the last ten years. I have been saying this at committees and to the Ministers who were in this position before. I support all of the staff, from the man in the cabin who we meet going in the gate, to the make-up artists, the researchers and all of those good people and ordinary correspondents. The issue is the carry-on at the top and the Minister's reluctance and inability to deal with it. Her response is to commission this report and that report, and we will have all the reports in the world and all the questions coming back. We need basic transparency. I serve on boards and I know there has to be accountability. Dee Forbes rides off into the sunset, as do many others. Then they bring in Mr. Bakhurst even though he was out of that stable before. What is going on? Does the Minister think the people are complete clowns? They might watch comedy but they do not want to have comedians made out of them. “He who pays the piper calls the tune” is the old seanfhocal. What is going on is not acceptable.

As regards the motion, I do not know where the Sinn Féin Members are. For 30 years, they were locked out of RTÉ and due to section 31, they were not let in. Now, they are on it morning, noon, evening and night, and even when we are in bed, they are on it. They are being cosied up to for the next Government and we can see that quite clearly. This is hollow. We can see the carry-on, the shenanigans and the inability and reluctance of the Government to deal with it. We need a proper investigation from outside the country, which I looked for, but the Minister would not do that because she wanted reports in order to keep friendly with them. They will give all the narrative and if anybody is not 100% the same or has any other narrative, they are far right, loony left or something else. It is shocking what is going on but the people can see through it; as plain as day, they can see what is going on. It is deception.

Deputy Michael Collins

The financial instability of RTÉ, a matter that was starkly highlighted by the scandal in 2023, continues to echo throughout Ireland. The broadcaster's heavy reliance on the licence fee, which is funded by taxpayers, underscores its precarious financial position. This dependence is a stark reminder of the broadcaster’s financial vulnerability and it raises questions about the sustainability of this model in the long term.

The Government's lack of decisive action in addressing this issue is a cause for concern. While the Sinn Féin motion to reform the television licence fee model may appeal to the masses, it fails to offer a holistic solution to RTÉ's challenges. In fact, it risks imposing the full weight of the broadcaster’s inefficiencies on the taxpayer. This approach could potentially burden taxpayers with the full cost of the broadcaster’s inefficiencies, which is not a sustainable or fair solution.

Whatever the future model of payment in regard to the television licence, it is crucial to diversify the distribution of public sector broadcasting funds. At present, RTÉ is the primary recipient of these funds. However, a more equitable distribution of these funds would involve allocating to areas like local radio, for example, to my own local stations, 96 FM, Red FM and 103 FM. They need to be fairly funded, the same as everybody else, and they seem to have struggles much of the time. There is also Gript.ie and local newspapers like the Southern Star. The funding issue has to be discussed as this would stimulate a more diverse and resilient media landscape. That strategy would not only promote competition but also guarantee that a plurality of perspectives, viewpoints and voices is heard, which is essential for a healthy democracy.

While the Sinn Féin motion represents a positive step, it is not the cure for all of RTÉ's problems. A more comprehensive, democratic and inclusive strategy is required to truly transform the broadcaster and regain public trust.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

The first thing that jumps out of this motion is the suggestion that the licence payer should stop paying and we should invest Exchequer funding in a platform-neutral media fund. Money does not grow on trees and, at the end of the day, it is all taxpayers’ money, so what Sinn Féin is doing is asking the people to stop paying and then the Exchequer will pay. The Exchequer has no money unless we put the money into it in the first instance, so we would need more clarity about where the money is actually to come from.

This debate is welcome in that wrongdoing has happened with the expenditure at RTÉ and, of course, the fat has to be trimmed from what it is doing. However, the question we have to ask is whether we want a national broadcaster. Obviously, we do, but we want it to be effective and work-person-like. We do not want waste and we do not want the largesse that was going on out there.

We also want there to be fairness in Irish media. In my county, I want Radio Kerry to be funded and to have a fair crack of the whip. It provides an invaluable service. There are people who work their lives around their local radio station. They actually set the time they eat and the time they rest from their work by it. When they go on a journey in the car, they know who is coming on the radio, and they time their day around the local radio station. We have to acknowledge that, admire it and also fund it. We have to help to have a level playing field. Nonetheless, we have to agree that we need a national broadcaster. RTÉ has done a lot of good. It might have done harm but it has also done a lot of good.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

I am glad to have the opportunity to say a few words about the licence fee. I believe we are putting the cart before the horse. As I understand it, RTÉ came to the Oireachtas committee to look for approximately €60 million to keep going, and that is only some of it. We have no plan or transparency available from RTÉ or the Government as to what is going to be the case with RTÉ going forward. We have to talk about the people who have been taken to court day after day to pay the licence fee, and for what? Yes, we get good current affairs and news from RTÉ, but there are also a lot of deficiencies.

I do not watch television much but when we saw what was on television on Christmas Day, it was black and white films that were 80 years old. God Almighty, who gave them to RTÉ? It did not have to pay for them. We need transparency as to what is going on. We cannot see matches and we do not see enough culture, such as Irish music and dancing, or we see too little of it. Whatever wing TG4 is under, it is well run and is providing good entertainment, and it is where we see most of the matches.

We can see the Begleys from west Kerry playing the accordion. We can see something real. RTÉ, however, is looking for €60 million while at the same time it is giving the likes of Joe Duffy €400,000 and Ray D'Arcy another €400,000. That is almost €1 million. It has to stop. We know what Joe Duffy tried to do to the good people of Killorglin and the Puck Fair in 2022. He failed, however. The crowd was even bigger this year.

Deputy Richard O'Donoghue

In the little time I have left after the previous speaker, I make the point in the context of the television licence that the national broadcaster is supposed to broadcast everything in Ireland, not just the Government show. The Government show is all it seems to broadcast now. In the deal involving taxpayers' money the Government gave to fund RTÉ and stop it from closing, how much air time does the Government get? The Minister should tell the people the truth. How much air time does it get? Why is it that the likes of Virgin Media and TG4 have come up with an even approach to broadcasting but that is not the case for RTÉ? I have followed RTÉ all my life and have great admiration for its staff at all levels, but something is wrong at the top. Coverage is not being given out equally. If the Minister asks reporters, they will tell her they are not getting an opportunity to go out and report the real stories throughout Ireland. Why is that the case? It seems to be all a Government show. When it comes to referendum coverage, it is all one-sided. There are three or four people representing one side and maybe one person from the other side. There is no equality in that regard. If the Government wants, it should fund all the broadcasters equally and allow equal debate across all forms of broadcasting, including all the little radio stations such as Live 95 FM in my area or West Limerick 102. Why does the Government not fund such stations in the same way that it funds RTÉ? Let us have fairness in this matter. If all broadcasters are funded, there will be no bias in terms of representation. My biggest disappointment with RTÉ is that it is not telling the true and real stories that are happening in Ireland and around the world.

Deputy Thomas Pringle

I welcome the opportunity to speak on the motion to reform the television licence fee model. I fully support the motion and its calls to scrap the unfair television licence fee with immediate effect and invest Exchequer funding into a platform-neutral media fund, which would support public service media content production and the activities of commercial, local and community providers, along with RTÉ and TG4.

While the television licence fee may be an afterthought for some, for many people in this country it is yet another bill on top of the many they are struggling to pay. Many families have found it very difficult to make ends meet during the cost-of-living crisis which has been ongoing for a considerable time. For them to be expected to pay yet another bill in light of the scandalous waste of money by RTÉ in recent years is a massive slap in the face. Why has the Government not taken the opportunity to scrap the television licence fee following this RTÉ controversy and in response to the financial struggle many households are experiencing? How is it somehow affordable to give every household in the country more than €400 worth of electricity credits, while at the same time scrapping a €160 television fee is unaffordable? This demonstrates how the Government repeatedly fails to implement targeted measures that will benefit those who need them most.

Social Justice Ireland recently revealed that Ireland’s rich-poor gap stands at €960 per week, or €50,115 per annum, in 2024. It noted the impact of emergency crisis measures in 2022 to 2024 that saw the gap fall in 2022 for the first time in the past ten budgets. As these measures are temporary, however, the gap between those who are poor and those who are better off is due to widen again in 2024 and get increasingly bigger if more long-term measures are not implemented. This is completely unacceptable and it is unfair to the most vulnerable in society. The Opposition warned the Government of the ineffectiveness of once-off payments in tackling poverty and creating a more fair and just society. Once-off payments fail to benchmark social welfare rates to ensure they provide an adequate standard of living and they cannot tackle the low-income culture that has prevented this country from eliminating poverty. The most vulnerable get left behind when welfare increases do not correlate with increases elsewhere in the economy, and no amount of one-off payments will address that. The only way we can effectively address the income gap is by providing long-term social welfare increases and ensuring that fees, such as the television licence fee, are paid through general taxation. This is a much fairer system where those who can pay more do so, while those who cannot pay are not forced to do so.

The funding of a national broadcaster is a very important issue and the Government should be taking this opportunity to review the way it has been funded in the past and will be funded in the future. I acknowledge that the Government amendment to the motion states that, "the Government is committed to the introduction of a new sustainable and fair funding model during its term of office, and to giving due consideration to all funding options, including direct Exchequer funding". However, I am sceptical as to whether the Government will prioritise this and actually implement a new funding model before the end of the year, a point which, in reality, will also mark the end of the Government. In addition, I disagree with the statement in the Government amendment that "it would be inappropriate and premature to introduce any new funding model prior to the completion of the independent reviews into RTÉ".

There is a need to consider the almost 200 An Post staff whose work involves the collection of the television licence fee. They should not be made compulsorily redundant. Whatever happens with the television licence, they should be redeployed or, if necessary, offered a redundancy package. Those jobs must not be lost. That is vital.

Although there will be a need to reform corporate governance and organisational culture at RTÉ following these independent reviews, there is no reason that the funding model cannot be reformed as soon as possible. At the very least, the television licence fee should be waived until a new funding model is implemented. We know the funds to do this are available, as evidenced by the fact that the Government was able to afford to give households far more in energy credits.

It is vital that citizens have a place to go for factual and unbiased information, a place where they are guaranteed the truth. It is vital that there is no further privatisation or outsourcing of national broadcasting services and production. Significant funding should be given to allow for this freedom and independence, and it should be given through general taxation and increased taxation of big corporations. It should not be taken from the many families who live pay cheque to pay cheque and would struggle to scrape together the extra to pay the licence fee in a country that is becoming increasingly more expensive and difficult to live in.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

I thank Sinn Féin for the opportunity to speak on this topic. I wish we were talking about the importance of public service media. I am tired of disinformation and misinformation. The best way to deal with that is to have a trustworthy and diverse public service media that has a range of voices. If I have a chance, I might come back to that point in the context of Gaza and Israel and the coverage of that conflict by our public service media at the moment.

I welcome the Minister's agreement that serious consideration needs to be given to direct Exchequer funding. My difficulty is that it has been going on too long, far before the current troubles with RTÉ. I pay tribute to the vast number of staff in RTÉ who have nothing to do with this issue. What has happened is unacceptable. I thank the Minister for the reports she is awaiting and so on. We no longer need to await those reports. I thank the Future of Media Commission for its sterling work. On page 127 of its report, it set out that the option of a household charge was identified as an alternative by the Oireachtas committee back in 2017, seven years ago. An interdepartmental working group on the future of public service broadcasting concurred in its report published in 2019. Fast forward to the 2022 report of the Future of Media Commission, which had a much broader remit. Its excellent report set out various matters. The Minister referred to the report as the blueprint for enabling the continued development of public service media. It explored many matters. It contextualised our funding models with regard to how it was being done in Europe and in other countries and it looked at public opinion. What is wonderful about its findings in that regard is that more than 65% of respondents agreed it was important to ensure public service broadcasting receives an appropriate level of funding and so on. In addition, it was found that it was particularly important to take into account the view of the public regarding a broadcasting charge. Given what some of the Minister's colleagues are saying, it is particularly important to note the commission's observation that, "a thoughtfully designed taxation-based model can preserve and protect the independence of publicly-funded media".

It looked at a great deal, including the percentages and how they have changed over the years. Before 2010, it was more dominated by commercial funding. There was less State funding, but that has been reversed.

Then we have the position of TG4, with 90% direct funding and not a problem with independence. It sets out all of that out for us in order that we can read and discuss it. There is a very interesting part in which the funding across Europe is examined. The Vatican is 100% publicly funded, and then there are variations. Ireland is down at the bottom, with public funding of 57%. Ireland is in the company of Malta, which has not distinguished itself in the past in the context of public service media and holding power to account, and Poland, which has not distinguished itself either and has public funding of 53%. That is where we are placed.

After careful consideration, the commission came down in favour of direct taxation. It looked at direct taxation and a broadcasting charge and considered which would get public buy-in. It found that the biggest buy-in from the public, based on all of its research, would be for direct taxation. It found in favour of public funding along with commercial funding. It rejected the idea of 100% public funding, which I am still open to and would like more debate on. I do not want a divisive debate but one which determines what is the best way to fund public service media. Unfortunately, we have not got to that point. Tonight, the Minister is asking us to wait a little longer until the reports come in. Every time a report comes in, however, another is commissioned. When this report came out, the Minister set up a working group. We have not yet seen that group's report. We cannot see it until we get the other reports. I am running out of time to read all of these reports, although I am doing my best to keep on top of them. We are debating a motion that I have difficulties with, although I agree that the licence has to go. It is useless and has to go, but I have a difficulty with the idea of getting rid of it tomorrow morning. The report of the Future of Media Commission said to get rid of it by 2024 and to ease our way into that. It set out the blueprint. I welcome the fact that the Minister is nodding but, unfortunately, it did not happen. As a result, we are in a situation whereby Sinn Féin has proposed a motion that is difficult to support 100%. While I fully support the concept of getting rid of the licence, we are in a position where successive Governments have not acted.

Let me put on the record that I am absolutely opposed to a broadcasting charge. I do not think people want another tax. From all my experience of canvassing on doorsteps, I know that people pay tax. They want to pay tax and they want services like those relating to housing, health, public education, public transport, etc. They want something they can believe in. I have to say that I wish we were discussing the accountability of RTÉ in terms of Gaza and Israel, for example, and the free approach when it comes to the Israeli ambassador. I do not see that extended to the Palestinian ambassador. I can think of many more examples that I would love to be discussing in a proactive way in the context of how to make public service media represent us.

Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Deputy Dara Calleary)

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Teach as an deis a bheith páirteach sa díospóireacht seo. Ní aontaím leis an rún ach gabhaim buíochas le Sinn Féin as ucht na díospóireachta agus leis an Aire, an Teachta Martin, as rún an Rialtais a mholadh.

It is clear that there is general agreement across the House on the value and importance of public service broadcasting, which is not exclusive to RTÉ. There seems to be agreement that it must be supported and properly funded, and that is welcome. I also welcome the fact that the Opposition is anxious to solve the question of funding for RTÉ as part of the wider public service broadcasting debate , even if the proposal being discussed this evening does not particularly hold water.

I would like to address a number of areas. There is no doubt that we are a very critical juncture in relation to RTÉ. There is a critical, long-standing need to reform the funding model to ensure certainty and sustainability. There is also a critical need to consider the most sustainable way to provide a long-term funding model for something as vital as public service broadcasting and the role of RTÉ within that. Despite what others may claim, there is no mixed messaging coming from this side of the House. The Government is clear in its commitment to reform of the TV licence, but it is also clear that there is more than one way in which we can do so. There is no silver bullet, however. All options have their merits as well as their challenges. That is why a much more reasoned and measured approach is needed. That is why this Government, in not accepting the recommendation from the Future of Media Commission, decided that a further examination of the potential options to reform the TV licence was needed. That is why we established the technical working group and why we are considering all the options.

There will be different views. There are those who advocate for different options, which is not always a sign of disharmony but of healthy debate and a weighing up of the best way forward. This is how policy is developed. Options are assessed, the pros and cons are weighed up and something that will work and is effective is delivered. Unfortunately, it is not always about the easiest route, the path of least resistance or the option that will be populist and popular. Governing is about hard choices made with due diligence and consideration.

I agree with the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, that it is important we consider reform of the funding model hand in glove with the reform of RTÉ. That reform cannot be achieved without a clear way forward and the recommendations of the two expert advisory committees will enable that. I would also like to comment on suggestions that we levy streaming platforms such as Netflix, or that we tax big tech. These are both very different things but both are very different from how one should fund public service media. First, a levy on streaming services such as Netflix has been mooted. The Future of Media Commission did not examine placing levies on streaming platforms for this purpose. I see a potential difficulty in that this would tie funding for public service broadcasting and for RTÉ to the financial health of the platforms, or to their popularity and levels of subscribers, which would not provide the necessary certainty. In any event, this is allowed for in legislation already but for a different and equally important purpose. The Online Safety and Media Regulation Act gives Coimisiún na Meán authority to impose a levy on media service providers in order to fund the production of European works, including Irish works. This is already done elsewhere, including in France, and an coimisiún is carrying out research to inform any such levy and fund. That research is expected to be submitted later this year.

People Before Profit Deputies have said that we should place a tax on large IT companies. Again, this is not something that the Future of Media Commission considered. Once more, I see a problem with tying the funding of public service broadcasting and RTÉ to big tech companies and their income levels or profits. Will they dictate what funding is available for public service content here in Ireland? That model is not appropriate. This country is a hub for big tech, which supports significant investment and jobs here. The People Before Profit proposals is one that might have a negative impact on this important sector of our economy while only providing an uncertain and unsustainable funding model for public service broadcasting. The Taoiseach has been very clear that the Government will not be taxing big tech to pay for public service media.

What the Government is doing is considering how to have a sustainable model. In its report published in 2022, the Future of Media Commission noted three main funding models, namely, a TV licence, a universal charge or direct Exchequer funding. Two of these options are viable and sustainable. This is the basis on which we will make our decision. I would also like to refer to the proposed amnesty for those who have not paid their TV licence. The anger and frustration which the public feels about corporate governance in RTÉ and former senior management of the organisation is fully understandable. Indeed, it is shared by many of the staff in RTÉ. However, until we have a fully thought out and planned replacement, the TV licence fee is the funding model. It is the law and we cannot accept anybody suggesting that we do anything to encourage further evasion of a legal obligation. I echo the comments of the Taoiseach and Tánaiste that we cannot accept an amnesty. We cannot turn around now and insult all those people, the vast and silent majority of over 800,000 who did their duty and paid the TV licence last year. People talk about fairness, equality and transparency, but how is an amnesty in these circumstance fair, equal or transparent? As long as the TV licence remains in place, we must encourage all those who have an obligation to pay to do so.

That allows them to play their part in supporting public service content.

A number of other issues not directly related to the TV licence but related to the various reports and controversies surrounding RTÉ have been floated this evening and are often discussed in the same breath as the TV licence. As the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, alluded to earlier this evening, there seems to be more that unites us than divides us on this issue. The Minister has said before that if we as elected officials truly believe in the importance of public service broadcasting and a sustainable funding model, then we must all play a proactive part in ensuring that it can be achieved appropriately and sustainably. This will require legislation to reform the TV licence. Given the widespread support for reform, I am sure the Deputies right across the House will support its passage when the time comes, but that time is not now. It is not overnight. The time is when we have not only reports into RTÉ, but recommendations that will help provide a way forward for the continued reform and, most important, the rebuilding of trust.

What the Government is doing is to be considered and measured in assessing the best option to fund public service media. We are looking at the options available and will make a decision that is in the public interest, not just of RTÉ, but of all public service media. I endorse the remarks of all Deputies about local radio channels, independent broadcasters and others. We want a model that provides certainty, security, and respect to those who work in public service broadcasting - in RTÉ as well as for independent producers and production facilities. We can only do this when we have a clear pathway to restoring trust and confidence in RTÉ. This can only be done when the reports, which importantly will contain recommendations, are received from the two independent expert committees that this Government has established.

An Ceann Comhairle

We now go to Deputy Carthy, who is sharing with Deputies Doherty and Gould. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Deputy Matt Carthy

Sinn Féin would abolish the television licence. The Government has spent a lot of time this evening talking about what that would mean for those who currently do not pay their licence fee. Of course, the people who would benefit most from Sinn Féin's proposal are those who do pay their licence, who often become financially strapped by the burden and increasingly wonder why they bother, considering how RTÉ has often squandered the fees that have been collected.

The following are the options: first, either the licence fee continues - with more and more people likely to refuse to pay it; second, the licence will be replaced by a household charge collected by Revenue, imposed on families regardless of ability to pay - added to all the many other stealth charges that the Labour Party, in particular, seems to love so much and; the third option is that public service broadcasting would be financed from the same source as all other public services are financed, namely, through progressive general taxation.

Sinn Féin is picking a side. We are with public service broadcasting. We are with the Irish public, who are clearly sending a statement by the growing refusal to pay the licence. We are also for accountability. Nobody in receipt of public funding, whether from taxation or from one of the Government's myriad stealth charges, should be able to waste that public money through corporate extravagances, flip-flops, making backroom deals with presenters, celebrities or private companies, vanity projects such as "Toy Show The Musical" or through first class flights or corporate seats at sporting events. Nobody should be able to waste public money like that without being held to account.

The licence fee should be abolished. Public service broadcasting should be protected and the expenditure for every red cent of Irish taxpayers' money should be accounted for transparently. Very simply, that is what the Sinn Féin motion calls for, and that is what those who reject our motion tonight will vote against.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

I listened with interest to the Minister's response. In fairness to her, she actually agrees with Sinn Féin, because she stated clearly in media interviews and she articulated it again today that the recommendation from the expert group that was established by the Government, which looked at all of the options for how we fund public service media and public service content, and having looked at all of them, including best practice internationally, it came down on one. The report ruled out every other option, which is the option that Sinn Féin is putting forward today.

The Minister agrees with it, but two and a half years on from when the chairperson wrote his foreword to that report and submitted it to the Minister, who is across the Chamber, she has completely and utterly failed to act. In today's amendment we have a reference to some unforeseen time when the Minister may be able to get the agreement of her Cabinet colleagues on what they will do and how they will fund the public service media – RTÉ, TG4 and other providers of public service content. The reality is that there is only one show in town – the issue has already been examined - and that is, we need to abolish the TV licence. That is what our motion calls for. We need to do what Coimisiún na Meán recommended, which is that the public funding of the media should come from Exchequer funding. It is clear - in black and white - from 2024 the source of public funding for public service media should change from the current system of a TV licence combined with general Exchequer funds to a system based entirely on general Exchequer funds. The Taoiseach may say that is populist, but I do not think that the panel he appointed is populist. I ask the Minister to dismiss what the Taoiseach says in that regard. These are people who looked at this in great detail. What needs to be done is that the TV licence needs to be abolished and we need to fund it from Exchequer funding.

The Minister tried desperately but she cannot get Leo Varadkar and Micheál Martin to agree with her on this. We know what they want to do. They want to introduce a new household charge, which the commission said we should not do. They want to do that but they do not want to tell anybody. At least they do not want to tell anybody before the local and European elections. They had this report for two and half years, long before there was a scandal in terms of the public's awareness of what was happening within RTÉ and they have continued to kick the can down the road.

The Minister tried to suggest that the numbers in our document do not add up. For example, she says that our proposal for €140 million in additional money is not enough, yet €140 million in additional funding, on top of the €69 million for the free TV licence in the household package, and including the €57 million for TG4, and the €40 million that has been provided to RTÉ already, does add up to what the commission recommended in its report in table 5.2 on page 144. If the Minister wants to get her phone and Google it, she will see it there.

She also makes the point that we do not provide for the media fund. Does she think that the commission recommended in table 5.2 that the media fund was something different when it recommended that the €300 million target be reached in 2024? The media fund is part of it. The Minister should look at the table, which is again on page 144. The reference to a media fund of €30 million is there. Not only are we providing €300 million, which is what the commission recommended, we actually go to €305 million, because TG4 has got a little bit more than what the commission recommended in the intervening four-year period. I beg the Minister not to give misinformation. Let us deal with the facts here. The fact is that people have lost trust in RTÉ. People have lost trust in the TV licence. One in four people has refused to pay the TV licence and the Government believes they should be hauled before the courts, tying up court time and Garda resources.

What we need to do is what the Government has failed to do for the last two and a half years, which is to implement the recommendations of the expert body; abolish the TV licence and put public service media on a certain footing, with a triple lock. The triple lock is that first, it would be multi-annual funding; second, it would be independently put forward by Coimisiún na Meán and; third, if a Minister were to deviate from it, a written explanation - that would be laid out in legislation - would have to be provided and it would only happen with votes in both Houses of the Oireachtas. That would provide certainty for the media. I urge the Government to implement the recommendations and to stop hiding behind what it really plans to do, which is to apply a new additional charge on people.

Deputy Matt Carthy

Hear, hear.

Deputy Thomas Gould

It is absolutely shocking that the Minister has come in here today and called Sinn Féin's proposal "premature". She said she feels there is a need for some serious consideration of the proposals before there is action. I will just give the Minister and the Government a small bit of history.

This has been discussed for ten years. For ten years it has been recognised that the TV licence was out of date. The Minister said it today in her speech. The Taoiseach has said it. Everyone has said it. In 2013 we saw the publication of recommendations on the future funding of public service broadcasting. In 2016 the public funding review of public sector broadcasting was submitted to the BAI. In 2019 the report of the working group on the future of funding public sector broadcasting was published.

The Minister has had two and a half years to review the Future of Media Commission report. This is a detailed report by experts that was commissioned and was comprehensive. There is no excuse for the Minister to come in here and to say our proposal is premature when Fine Gael or Fianna Fáil had ten years. What action was taken? Sinn Féin is bringing forward solutions tonight. This Government is scared to act and we know why. We continue to ignore these reports. It is costing millions when you look at the wastage in RTÉ. To give the Minister something to think about, this report on the future of media cost €240,000. It has been sitting on her desk for two and a half years. Mother of God, we must be burning the money. It would be easier to burn it than to do any more reports, one after another. It is insulting to ordinary working people and families because there is a cost-of-living crisis.

The Government talks about all the people who paid the licence fee. Does it know how hard that is for a lot of those people and families? Most of all, the Government is insulting them by not doing its job. It was given this job to do but it is not doing it. The Taoiseach came in today and responded to me by saying this was comical. Is it funny to him that thousands of people - 13,000 last year - were dragged through the courts? Is it funny for him that people are getting a criminal record because they cannot afford to pay the TV licence? That is this Government's attitude. Was the Government giggling in Government Buildings when it got another expert report and did nothing with it? This Government's amendment is not complex; it is to kick the can down the road. It is as simple as this, and Deputy Doherty said it. The Taoiseach and Tánaiste are telling the Green Party they will bring in a household charge after the European, local and general elections. The Green Party is not strong enough to stand up to them.

An Ceann Comhairle

To delete the following:

"— that there is a legal obligation on those who own a television set to have a television licence, and that any amnesty would be inherently unfair on those who are compliant with this obligation;

to delete the following:

"— that it would be inappropriate and premature to introduce any new funding model prior to the completion of the independent reviews into RTÉ, and in the absence of recommendations which will inform the continued reform of corporate governance, internal control and organisational culture at RTÉ, and which will contribute to the necessary restoration of trust in RTÉ."; and

to insert the following after "Contractor Fees, Human Resources and other matters in RTÉ; and":

"calls on the Government to:

— ensure that workers and jobs in RTÉ are protected;

— ensure that the range and quality of services provided by RTÉ are protected, and ensure there is an expansion of cultural, arts and entertainment services and content;

— ensure that there is no further privatisation and/or outsourcing of services and production for RTÉ;

— end advertising and sponsorships by RTÉ;

— increase public funding for RTÉ by raising €500 million through a big tech tax on large technology, communications and information corporations;

— cap pay to end big six figure salaries for the few;

— democratise RTÉ by replacing the current Board to make it representative of RTÉ workers and civil society, with Board members subject to recall;

— scrap the unfair television licence fee with immediate effect; and

— introduce a legal amnesty from prosecution for those who have not paid their licence fee".

Amendment put.

Dáil Éireann debate - Tuesday, 13 Feb 2024

Reform of the Television Licence Fee Model: Motion [Private Members]

Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 13 Feb 2024