Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 14 Feb 2024

Vol. 1049 No. 5

Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

It is time to scrap the television licence. The Government needs to face up to this reality. People's trust and support for RTÉ and the licence have crumbled. People see the fiasco of excess and waste at RTÉ and they feel taken for fools. They also see the lack of accountability and, frankly, they have had enough. This collapse in public confidence is not helped by the revelation that Toy Show The Musical, which lost €2.2 million of taxpayers' money, had not received formal approval of the RTÉ board. Today, we have key figures behind that debacle still dodging accountability to the Oireachtas media committee. Now, that is arrogance. It is no wonder hundreds of thousands of households have not paid the licence fee. People are voting with their feet.

Does the Taoiseach seriously propose to chase those hundreds of thousands of taxpayers through the courts, threatening them with a fine or even a custodial sentence, or will the Government act now? Surely we can all agree that the courts' time and resources are better spent on more serious matters. By the way, not one of the top brass at RTÉ has been held to account for wasting taxpayers' money. It is therefore unthinkable that thousands of ordinary people would face court while highly paid executives get away scot-free having wasted millions.

The collapse in public confidence presents a serious challenge in how we fund sustainable, vibrant and diverse public service media into the future, yet the Government is all over the place. Instead of being straight with people, we have had mixed messages and contradiction to beat the band. The Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, says one thing, the Minister, Deputy Paschal Donohoe another, and the Minister, Deputy Michael McGrath, yet another.

The Taoiseach has described the TV licence as outdated and belonging to a different time, and he is right. Abolish it, therefore, and get on with your job. The Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, talks about not rushing this decision, but she has had the Future of Media Commission report on her desk for two years, yet the Government plods along with a licence that is outdated and belonging to a different time. Not rushing is one thing; standing like a deer in the headlights is quite another.

We need a bit of common sense and cop-on here. The television licence should be scrapped and direct Exchequer investment put in place to fund public service media. That is what the Future of Media Commission found and that is what is contained in last night's Sinn Féin's motion. Tá tacaíocht an phobail don cheadúnas teilifíse tar éis titim as a chéile. Ba cheart deireadh a chur leis an gceadúnas teilifíse agus infheistíocht Státchiste a chur ina áit chun meáin seirbhíse poiblí a mhaoiniú go hinbhuanaithe. Our proposal to be voted on tonight represents the best approach to deliver a sustainable and successful future for public service media. It is also the fair approach for households and families. This is a positive way forward and certainly not something that should divide the Dáil. The Government must end the merry-go-round of dither, delay and contradiction. Now is the time for a decision. Will the Government scrap the TV licence and replace it with Exchequer funding to ensure a better future for public service media?

The Taoiseach

I thank the Deputy and wish her and everyone in the House a happy St. Valentine's Day.

It is very clear that we have significant problems in RTÉ. We see a culture of poor governance when decisions were not made or not made properly. We see a culture of arrogance from some of the senior people who were in charge of that organisation. We also see a wider culture of entitlement, a belief that the revenue from the licence fee should belong to RTÉ either entirely or for the greatest part. That sense of entitlement and thinking went back to the era when we had to fly Aer Lingus and had to get our electricity from the ESB. Things have moved on a lot since then. There is much more to public service broadcasting than RTÉ.

I do not agree that there has been no accountability. A number of people have resigned from their posts. People have been called in before the Oireachtas committee and have accounted for their actions. Those who have not yet done so should in my view. I want to make that very clear. If any evidence of criminality or breaches of corporate law or company law are picked up in the audits, they will be referred to the Corporate Enforcement Authority. To date, that has not occurred but it may yet occur.

In the meantime, the Government will decide on a new means of funding public service broadcasting. That must be a method that is fair, one that says to people who use and benefit from public service broadcasting that they should bear some of the cost. That is only fair. It also needs to say very clearly that it is not all about RTÉ. It is also about other forms of public service broadcasting, including that provided by local radio and local media, which report on council meetings and court proceedings, and also more widely supporting bursaries for journalists and encouraging international correspondents, whom we do not have enough of when we look at our news in Ireland. All that is really important because if there is one thing I have seen change dramatically over the course of the past 15 or 20 years in politics, it is how people get their information and news. More so than ever, reliable sources of information are required because people simply cannot trust news and information stories they see online. Unfortunately, many people do and that is to the detriment of our democracy, not just here but also abroad.

The TV licence remains the law. The money does not all go to RTÉ; some of that goes to the public service broadcasting fund. It goes to Irish language programming, children's programming and news. Some of it helps to pay staff in RTÉ who have nothing to do with this at all and, I believe, must feel very demoralised at the moment because of all that is going on.

I believe people should obey the law and pay their taxes and charges. It would be an affront and an insult to the majority of decent law-abiding citizens who have paid their TV licence fee to grant an amnesty to those who did not. It would be profoundly unfair. If we granted an amnesty to those who did not pay, we would come under pressure to provide rebates for those who did. Has the Deputy considered that? Is that also her party's policy?

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

What is an insult and an affront to everyone is the Government's clear inability to take a decision. It has had a report for two years. That report made a clear-cut recommendation for the abolition of the television licence and its replacement by direct Exchequer funding. This has coincided with a collapse in public confidence in RTÉ and consequential non-payment of a TV licence the Taoiseach described as outdated and from another era. I agree with him on that. The question here is not about the necessity of quality public service media in RTÉ and beyond. We agree on that. The question is one of sustainable funding and the Government has to call it. Its members have dithered and delayed and contradicted one another. Worse than that, it seems it now proposes tens of thousands, potentially hundreds of thousands, of people will be dragged through the courts for non-payment of a licence fee that is outdated and from another era. The answer to this is for the Taoiseach to do his job and make a decision. The only logical decision is the abolition of the licence and direct Exchequer funding. It is that clear-cut.

The Taoiseach

It is not. There are a number of options. One option is direct Exchequer funding but that funding might otherwise go to education, health or pensions, for example, and it would potentially give future governments undue influence over RTÉ if RTÉ was funded directly from the Exchequer. We know there is somebody in this House who might be head of the next Government and who is suing RTÉ at the moment. It would be a huge conflict of interest to have people who are suing RTÉ deciding how much money it gets paid. That is not the kind of democracy we want. It is the kind of thing we are starting to see happen in the United States and other places. I would not want that to be the case in our State. An alternative option is a household media charge collected by Revenue. That needs to be considered. Those options are under consideration by the Government and we will make a decision on that this year but it will require legislation-----

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

When? It is February. When will the Government make the decision?

The Taoiseach

-----and it will require a system to set it up. In the meantime, the TV licence remains the law. People should obey the law, pay charges they are liable to pay and pay their taxes. That is a very simple thing. I do not believe in tax amnesties and never did. I do not think the policy the Deputy is pursuing is the right one. It is a return to left populism and is a mistake.

Deputy Holly Cairns

The words "RTÉ" and "crisis" are now almost synonymous. Repeated scandals have hugely damaged public service trust and confidence. Kevin Bakhurst and key members of the board are back in front of the Oireachtas committee today and there is a long way to go to rebuild trust in RTÉ. Senior management has an important role to play in this. We need a strong public service broadcaster that delivers important public service journalism in the public interest. To do this, we need a credible plan that addresses the enormous corporate governance failures identified. There must also be accountability for what has happened and full transparency going forward. However, the management team cannot do this alone. To proceed, it needs the Government to make a decision on reform of the TV licence. In its current form, it simply is not working and I think we all agree on that.

Sinn Féin has proposed scrapping it and replacing it entirely with Exchequer funding. I disagree with that position and do not think it has been thought through. Making RTÉ entirely reliant on State funding opens it up to risk of political influence. That flies in the face of the entire purpose of an independent public service broadcaster that plays a key role in holding the government of the day to account, not to mention that it would leave RTÉ's budget vulnerable to cuts during times of economic shock. It is not a tenable solution.

The Social Democrats have proposed a three-stranded funding model comprising some guaranteed multi-annual Exchequer funding, a public charge and a levy on social media companies. We need public service journalism now more than ever because of the misinformation and disinformation spreading like wildfire on social media. It is undoubtedly damaging our democracy. We believe social media companies should pay a levy to support public service journalism because trusted independent media is more important than it ever has been due to social media platforms' inability to self-moderate. A TV licence in an era where an increasing number of people stream content on their phones and tablets is completely outdated. It should be rebranded as a household public service journalism charge at a lower rate than the existing TV licence but collected in the same way. It is not appropriate for Revenue to be tasked with collecting something that is not a tax.

Incredibly, we are still waiting for the Government to outline what it intends to do. The Taoiseach says he has to wait for two more reviews before indicating what his plan is. That bears the hallmarks of delaying tactics. We know the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, favours Exchequer funding and the Tánaiste prefers the broadcasting charge collected by Revenue. What is the Taoiseach's position and when can we expect the Government to finally agree its proposal? The Taoiseach says it will be this year, but when this year?

The Taoiseach

I cannot give a date today but we should make a decision on this in the coming weeks, and certainly in the coming months. I agree that at a time when misinformation and disinformation are rife and are undermining democracy here and around the world, it is important to fund public service media and broadcasting. That cannot just be about RTÉ for reasons I think we will all agree on. The current model is to fund it through a mixture of the Exchequer and the TV licence. We will examine the options of a full Exchequer system or a system like the Deputy proposes, which is combined Exchequer funding and a household charge. We will weigh up the options and decide how it is done. There will always need to be an element of Exchequer funding. The current TV licence exempts people on very low incomes and older people. That would have to be the case for any household charge too.

The point the Deputy makes is very valid. Even if I may personally favour an Exchequer-funded model, which happens and works in some countries, I have a concern about such a model. It is that not this Government but perhaps a future government, led by the Deputy opposite, would have full control over the funding of RTÉ and public service broadcasting. There is a gross conflict of interest in somebody who is suing RTÉ deciding how much funding RTÉ would get. That would be a big problem for our democracy and we have to bear that in mind.

Deputy Holly Cairns

This has been discussed at length. In general, the public is sick of the same debates and conversations happening over and over and people are starting to tune out. That dampens the public appetite for a public service broadcaster and the value of all of that. A limited number of options are available and at some point the Government will have to pick some of them. The Taoiseach says he is in favour of some Exchequer funding; we agree with him and think there should be some guaranteed multi-annual Exchequer funding. Will the Taoiseach outline his position on a reformed licence fee that is not based on a TV, because we know that is dated? Will he outline his opinion on the potential for a charge for social media companies, which seem incapable of managing their platforms and the spread of misinformation?

It seems the Taoiseach is yet to come to a position on this so I ask him to consider the position of the Social Democrats, namely, some guaranteed multi-annual Exchequer funding, a TV licence fee reduced and rebranded as a public service journalism charge and not based on televisions, as well as a charge for social media companies.

The Taoiseach

The current position is the TV licence is the law. I encourage people to pay it, as I do and always have. It is not just about RTÉ; it is about Irish-language broadcasting, public service media, children's programming and the broadcasting fund, which supports many broadcasters and creators in the private sector who have their own small businesses. We need to bear that in mind when deciding whether to pay the TV licence fee.

It is linked to television at the moment but that is old-fashioned. I know there are people who have suggested it be linked to having any sort of device but I do not think that is any more practical, quite frankly. The possibility of applying it to households could make sense and that is the proposal the Social Democrats as a party are making, although I think we would still need to exempt pensioners and very low-income households because it would be very regressive otherwise and I think the Deputy is agreed on that too. As any change will require legislation and will requires a system to be set up, there will not be a new system this year and the licence fee will continue to apply at least for the entirety of this year. We have to consider all of those options.

In terms of a levy on social media companies, I am not sure that is a great idea. We already have a levy that is going to fund the media commission and that is due to be imposed on digital companies. We already have VAT on broadband, for example, and we have corporate profit taxes, which are being increased this year. There are already a number of taxes there and I am not sure it would be the right approach to add additional tax on top of that.

Deputy Denis Naughten

Last week, I attended the launch of the I Am Number 17 campaign, a determined initiative by 17 change-makers who shared their stories thereby shedding light on the realities faced by patients with rare diseases in Ireland. They are committed to enhancing our understanding of rare diseases and demonstrating that such conditions are more common than any of us believe. Rare diseases include cystic fibrosis, Duchenne muscular dystrophy and Huntington's disease, alongside most cancers, especially those affecting children. Rare diseases are collectively common and affect at least one in 17 people in Ireland, which equate to at least 300,000 people. This figure very likely underestimates the true prevalence when considering rare disorders. In a nation as small as ours, it is almost certain that we know or have encountered someone affected by a rare disease yet the path to an accurate diagnosis is fraught with challenges. The lack of specific knowledge and expertise often leads to significant delays in receiving proper treatment, thereby placing a heavy burden on families and carers. Many rare diseases emerge early in life with a staggering 30% of the children affected passing away before their fifth birthday although many cases are not identified until much later.

The anguish of being ill without a diagnosis or witnessing a child suffering without recognition is profound. Thus, securing an accurate and swift diagnosis is critical. However, 37% of patients endure a gruelling five-year quest for a diagnosis, often after being treated for unrelated conditions due to the complex nature of diseases. Irish research reveals that children with rare diseases occupy hospital beds 25 times more than other children, not to mention the significant care and cost burdens placed on adults with rare diseases.

The potential of genomics in addressing these challenges is immense. It offers hope for quicker, more precise diagnoses yet our efforts to harness this potential through a national strategy for genetics and genomics medicine have been hampered by recruitment issues and the absence of a designated home for the new central genetics and genomics laboratory. That laboratory is vital for the future of genetic testing in Ireland yet plans for its relocation from CHI Crumlin when the new children's hospital opens remain unclear, with no alternative site identified. This oversight jeopardises the effectiveness of our health service, leaving a crucial component of our national strategy in limbo and exacerbating existing inequalities.

I implore the Taoiseach to personally address this critical issue. Let us ensure that the I Am Number 17 campaign leads to meaningful and lasting change, improving the lives of those affected by rare diseases in Ireland.

The Taoiseach

At the outset, I thank Deputy Naughten for raising this important issue and I know rare diseases are a cause the Deputy has championed for many years. I know the effect that rare diseases can have on many patients living with them and, at times, it can be difficult to assess the appropriate medicines, technologies and diagnostic tools. We made commitments in the programme for Government to ensure increased focus on rare diseases and people living with them and we are now developing a new rare diseases strategy, which will renew that focus. A rare diseases policy unit has been established in the Department of Health and a national rare diseases steering group was also established in December and has met three times since. The development of a new strategy will look to the future and the needs of those patients and families living with rare diseases and diagnoses. We expect to have the new plan ready well before the end of this year. The voices of patients and families will be central to the development of this policy and a patient forum has been established to ensure exactly that.

In regard to the specific issue of the national laboratory capacity for genetic testing, we are fully committed to advancing genetic and genomic medicine in Ireland and building a national service. The central theme of the national strategy for accelerating genetic and genomic medicine in Ireland is to strengthen infrastructure and drive advances in genetics and genomics. This includes actions in regard to laboratory capacity. In particular, the National Genetics and Genomics Office is working to enhance existing laboratory infrastructure to promote the development and use of innovative technologies for testing, sample tracking and reporting. A national centre of excellence in genomic testing and bioinformatics will be established as a single entity and that will sit under the governance of the HSE. The national centre will work in collaboration with relevant clinical specialties and existing laboratory capacity in alignment with the new health regions. A genomics laboratory operating model is now being developed and, as part of this, for 2024, there is the development of a national genomic test directory for rare and inherited diseases.

Deputy Denis Naughten

Last year, the Minister for Health allocated €2.7 million to kickstart the national strategy for genomics and genetic medicine, aiming to bolster our health services capacity in genomics. However, progress has been stymied by recruitment shortfalls. At the last count, only ten of the 18 roles have been recruited under last year's application. The eight outstanding roles will not be appointed and have been merged into five roles planned for recruitment in 2024. Therefore, by the end of 2024, there will be 15 new hires under the strategy rather than the planned 23. If the failure to recruit staff was not bad enough, as I say, there is no plan in place for where we are going to house the new main laboratory for genetic testing in Ireland when CHI Crumlin is relocated. Will they be left wandering the halls of an empty Crumlin hospital after everything else has moved out? We need answers, we need action and we need them now.

The Taoiseach

I understand that some of the posts that were approved in 2023 were affected by the temporary pause on new recruitment. A new workforce plan for 2024 is being developed by the HSE and it will be able to increase its total staffing levels by between 2,000 and 3,000 over the course of this year. This will include genetic counsellors and the development of the genomic resource associate role to help patients navigate the genetic and genomic care pathway and improve the co-ordination of care. The €2.7 million provided to fund the implementation of the national strategy for genetics and genomics included the establishment of the national office of genomics and the appointment of key staff. In regard to the location of the new laboratory and whether it remains in Crumlin or not, I do not have a satisfactory answer for the Deputy today but I will discuss it with the Minister for Health and come back to him as soon as I can.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Is mian liom filleadh ar mhuintir na Palaistíne agus an cinedhíothú atá ar siúl ag Rialtas Iosrael faoi láthair. I ndáiríre, is sléacht gan trua gan taise atá ar siúl. Inné, bhain an Taoiseach úsáid as focail láidre, cáinteacha maidir le hIosrael agus cuirim fáilte roimh na focail sin. Ar ndóigh, dúirt an tAire, an Teachta Coveney, gur stáit bradach é Iosrael agus cuirim fáilte roimhe sin freisin. Tá rud eile ag teastáil go géar áfach, agus is é sin leadership. Is é sin an rud atá ag teastáil go géar anois agus bearta le dul leis na focail láidre, cáinteacha sin.

I return to the issue of Palestine. I welcome the strong words the Taoiseach used yesterday. He talked about go bhfuil Rialtas Iosrael dallta le mire agus roimhe sin dallta ag díoltas - blinded with rage and blinded with revenge. I have a different opinion on that. I think they have a full and comprehensive plan. I welcome the Taoiseach's strong words, however, and I welcome the words of the Minister, Deputy Coveney, that we are dealing with a rogue state. What we need now are actions. What are we going to do now as an independent sovereign State and a Republic? We stood idly by when the Amnesty report was published in February 2022. We were uncomfortable with the word "apartheid", were we not, and did not like to use it, so we ignored the Amnesty report. We did not join in with South Africa when it took its case to the International Criminal Court. We stood by when six Palestinian organisations that carry out vital work on the ground were designated as terrorist groups. In the past four months, we have stood idly by while genocide is perpetuated in our name. We have stood by while UNRWA has been demonised, although I welcome the decision not to withdraw funding. We have stood idly by as Israeli settlements have increased in the occupied territories. We have overwhelming evidence from the ground up and trusted organisation as to what is happening in our name. Action Aid, which is the latest organisation to contact us, tells us that Israel has created an unbelievable hellscape in Gaza and people are starving and so on. It is all there. I am sure the Taoiseach has received that letter.

I am asking for leadership. First, the EU-Israel agreement has to be stopped. We have a mechanism for doing that and I need to hear the Taoiseach will lead on that. We need to stand with South Africa. We need to stand with Amnesty International, which has clearly stated that Israel operates an apartheid regime. We need to recognise the state of Palestine. If not now, when? We need the Taoiseach to make clear to President Biden what he has said in the Dáil, that is, that Israel is a rogue state and America must stop sending arms to Israel. We need to stand up and be counted. How many more deaths will we read out here as if they are simply numbers? On occasions, the Taoiseach has said very strong things. I agree with those, but he has not made his words mean something.

The Taoiseach

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Teachta as a cuid ceisteanna. Caithfidh sos cogaidh a bheith ann anois. Tá an iomarca daoine básaithe agus gortaithe sa Phalaistín. This morning, the Spanish Prime Minister, Pedro Sánchez, and I wrote formally to the President of the European Commission, Ursula Von Der Leyen, expressing once again our deep concern at the deteriorating situation in Gaza and calling for an urgent assessment of whether Israel is in breach of the human rights obligations under the EU-Israel association agreement. The letter states that the expanded Israeli military operation in Rafah poses a grave and imminent threat that the international community must confront urgently. If the Commission concludes that Israel is in breach of its obligations under the agreement, then the Commission should propose a response, although suspension may well require unanimity of member states.

I will set out briefly seven concrete actions the Government has taken in respect of this crisis in the Middle East. First, we were one of the first Governments in the world to call for a ceasefire. Second, we have increased our aid to the UN and UNRWA when other countries have suspended it because of allegations that some of the staff were involved in the 7 October massacre. Third, we have used our voice at the EU and the UN in support of the rights of Palestinian people. Fourth, we have sought that there be sanctions against violent settlers in the West Bank at EU level, and if we cannot get agreement with that at EU level, we will go ahead and do it with other like-minded EU member states. We have intervened in the International Criminal Court case on Israel's occupation of the Palestinian territories and the Attorney General will travel personally to The Hague to make our case on 22 February. We have joined with Spain today in calling for the suspension of the EU-Israel association agreement and we are in discussions with other EU member states about recognising the state of Palestine.

I want to be clear and honest with the Deputy, however, and with all Members of the House and the Irish people. None of these actions, in themselves, will bring about an end to this war. No war has ever been ended by a court order, the expulsion of an ambassador or the suspension of an agreement. To think so, frankly, is just make-believe. There are only three ways in which a war ends: military victory by one side over the other; a stalemate - a ceasefire like they have had in Korea for 75 years; or a political solution. Our focus is on the political solution and trying to work with our partners and allies, and even countries that are not our partners and allies, in the Arab world, the EU, across America and, indeed, in the global south, to bring about a ceasefire. That is what is needed - an immediate ceasefire so the killing can stop, aid can get in and hostages can be released, as they should be released, moving towards a permanent ceasefire and then a permanent political solution, which is the establishment of two states side by side, living in peace with each other.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

I welcome the fact that the Taoiseach has called for the suspension of the agreement. That is progress. There are many things we could have done up to now but we did not; we stood idly by. We are out of keeping with people on the ground in Ireland, who are crying out for leadership and saying, "Please do not do this in my name". I would like to have raised the issue of the hospital in Galway today, but I know the people of Galway will forgive me because they have expressed over and over that what is happening in our name in Palestine by the Israeli army and the government is simply intolerable.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

That is not happening in our name.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

It is intolerable that Netanyahu thinks he can get away with a ground invasion and we have President Biden saying, "Do not do that unless you have a plan." Those are not strong words. That is something the Taoiseach needs to make crystal clear to President Biden when he goes to America. I did not call for the withdrawal of the Israeli ambassador. I am finding it very difficult to stick with that decision because the ambassador has had free rein to propagate utter propaganda on our airwaves, with no balanced opposition, repeating that Israel is a democracy as if that gives it an entitlement to slaughter and carry out genocide. That is what we are listening to on the airwaves. I am now reviewing my decision in relation to that. At the very least, that woman and that ambassador should be called in here before the Dáil and made to account for the words she is using. That is what diplomacy is about at this point when we are looking at genocide.

The Taoiseach

I really hope we do not make this conflict or these terrible events that are happening in the Middle East to be in any way about us. It is not about us or the differences between the different parties here or between the Government and the Opposition. It is about the civilian population in Israel and the civilian population in the Palestinian territories. I disagree with the Deputy on two counts, even though we agree on most things. First, absolutely nothing Israel is doing at the moment is being done in our name. She has suggested that twice or three times. Absolutely nothing the state of Israel is doing is being done in our name. I want to make that very clear as the Head of Government and on behalf of the Government, at least. Second, I do not accept that we are standing idly by. In my initial response, I set out seven concrete actions we have taken already. When I meet representatives of Palestinians or the Palestinian Authority or leaders of other Arab countries, they thank us for the stance we are taking. We are seen as a country that is showing leadership on this issue, but we have to do it in a way that makes sense, is smart and allows us to continue to try to bring countries with us. At the first meeting of the European Council after this conflict started, we were in a minority in calling for a ceasefire. We are now in the clear majority and we have to ensure we are able to bring people with us - not people who already agree with us, but people who do not yet but might into the future.