Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 15 May 2024

Vol. 1054 No. 2

Ceisteanna Pholasaí nó ar Reachtaíocht - Questions on Policy or Legislation

Deputy Matt Carthy

Today marks the 76th anniversary of the Nakba, which saw 15,000 Palestinians killed and some three quarters of a million more expelled. The seven and a half decades since then have been marked, on the one hand, by the repeated breach by Israel of international laws and, on the other, by the failure of the international community to hold that state accountable for those breaches. The world, has, in essence, given Israel licence to disregard international humanitarian law and the UN Charter. In recent times, this has been evident through settlement expansion in the West Bank and East Jerusalem and in attempts to undermine the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East, UNRWA, and diminish the status of Palestinian refugees. All of these actions have proceeded without sanction and, indeed, without consequence. Today, the world watches as Israel conducts a genocide against the people of Gaza. The questions people all over the globe are asking are: will this time be different? Will Israel will face consequences?

What actual consequence will the Government impose on Israel for its actions in Palestine?

Deputy Heather Humphreys

The Tánaiste said this morning that Ireland will recognise the state of Palestine by the end of this month. That is a very important step. As the Deputy said, EU member states and the international community have made it clear that an Israeli military operation in Rafah will inevitably lead to disastrous humanitarian consequences and the deaths of large numbers of innocent civilians. We urge Israel to cease its operation in Rafah immediately and avoid further escalation. Israel must facilitate safe, unimpeded access of humanitarian aid to the civilian population of Gaza, including by way of the Rafah and Kerem Shalom crossings. We are working with our EU partners. The European Council adopted conclusions on the situation in Israel and Gaza at its meeting in March. The Council urged Israel not to undertake a ground operation in Rafah.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

Yesterday, the Minister for Health said he would love to see talks resume with thalidomide survivors. There has not been engagement by the Government with the survivors for a year. It is more than 60 years since the withdrawal of the drug from the market. Thalidomide survivors need justice. They have called for a State apology and a proper compensation package. I have raised their situation many times in the Dáil. The Government is full of soothing words but it is failing to take action. Last December, the Australian Government issued a state apology. Why will the Government not reignite a swift resolution process and give thalidomide survivors a date by which the process will be recommenced? Why has the support for Irish survivors of thalidomide Bill, which was listed in the spring legislative programme, apparently been dropped from the summer legislative programme published in April? Is the Government no longer preparing that Bill? Are we seeing a further delay in any meaningful engagement with thalidomide survivors, who have been waiting so long for justice?

Deputy Heather Humphreys

I acknowledge the presence of Finola Cassidy in the Gallery.

The HSE has a senior manager who liaises with Irish thalidomide survivors. The HSE has carried out a consultation process with survivors to ascertain their health and social care needs now and into the future. The support for Irish survivors of thalidomide Bill was paused because of this consultation with the HSE.

When that consultation is finished, it will then proceed.

Deputy Holly Cairns

Almost 4,800 children are waiting for child psychology appointments across Cork and Kerry alone, with nearly 2,900 waiting for over a year. These young people are struggling. They have taken the crucial and difficult first step of asking for help and are being denied it. Many of these children are struggling with anxiety and depression and are in desperate need of early intervention before their mental health difficulties get worse. There has rightly been a focus on the shortcomings in the CAMHS service, but we seem to turn a blind eye to the crisis facing primary care psychology. The waiting list in Cork and Kerry has grown by 25% in under a year. In response to a parliamentary question from me, the HSE pointed the finger directly at the Government's recruitment embargo. Half the funded posts in the service are vacant and the HSE cannot recruit the psychologists that are needed.

An Ceann Comhairle

I thank the Deputy. Her time is up.

Deputy Holly Cairns

When is the Government going to stop pretending that the recruitment embargo is not having an impact?

An Ceann Comhairle

The time is up.

Deputy Holly Cairns

What is the Government going to do to address the crisis facing primary psychology services in this country?

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

I thank the Deputy for raising the issue, which is one that was raised at the Cabinet subcommittee last Monday. It is getting prioritisation, as the Cabinet subcommittee deals specifically with youth, education and disabilities. That is an issue that was raised and we are addressing it as a priority.

Deputy Gino Kenny

Today is Nakba Day. Seventy-six years ago today, 600,000 Palestinians were expelled from Palestine. Palestinians across the world mark this day and recall the catastrophe that continues to this day. No adjectives could sum up what is happening to the people in Gaza at the moment. There is persecution and the people are being tormented, brutalised, murdered, exiled and jailed. I could go on. Since 7 October last, 15,000 children have been murdered by the state of Israel. What sanctions are this country imposing against a country that can brutalise and murder such an amount of people in such a short time?

Deputy Heather Humphreys

I thank the Deputy. As he said, today is Nakba Day. Israel marks its Independence Day and Palestine marks its Nakba Day. Both events are commemorated today. These dates serve as a reminder of the deep historical complexity that surrounds the current conflict. As I said earlier, the Tánaiste said this morning that we are going to recognise the state of Palestine by the end of this month. We are working across Europe with our colleagues. We make every effort we can. We continually call for an immediate and sustainable humanitarian ceasefire.

Deputy Gino Kenny

Are there any sanctions against Israel?

An Ceann Comhairle

I am sorry, Deputy. You have asked your question already.

Deputy Gino Kenny

Are there any sanctions against Israel?

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Tóibín.

Deputy Gino Kenny

Could somebody answer that question? Are there any sanctions against Israel for murdering 15,000 children?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy knows the answer. I call Deputy Tóibín.

Deputy Gino Kenny

No, I do not know the answer.

An Ceann Comhairle

Please do not interrupt.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

Mary Bartley-Meehan lost her son and husband to Covid-19. When her husband, Ultan, died, his face was discoloured with black, congealed blood. It had become infected and, shockingly, his face had become infested with maggots. The Minister for Health, the Department of Health, the HSE, HIQA and the Ombudsman have all so far refused to investigate what happened. Practically every second night, Mary has nightmares about that infestation. She said to me yesterday that she hopes she does not die without them saying sorry to her. Mary is just one of thousands of families who lost loved ones during Covid-19 in nursing homes. North of the Border we see the Covid inquiry is in full swing. We see the hypocrisy of Michelle O'Neill laid bare in relation to that, but in this part of Ireland we do not have a Covid inquiry, we do not have terms of reference and we do not have a Government that has any will to carry out this investigation. Some 2,300 lives were lost in the nursing home sector during that period. Why does this Government not want to investigate what it did in regard to Covid?

An Ceann Comhairle

All right. I thank the Deputy.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

Why are there no terms of reference?

An Ceann Comhairle

I thank the Deputy.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

Will the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, confirm to me today that there will be an investigation-----

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should please finish.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

-----with the powers to compel papers and the people before the end of this Government?

Deputy Mary Butler

I thank Deputy Tóibín for his question. He raised Mrs. Bartley-Meehan yesterday evening in the debate on the health Bill giving new powers to HIQA to go into private and voluntary nursing homes and to access details. The Bill is a direct response to the expert panel that was put in place during that horrendous time for many people in nursing homes. I met Mrs. Bartley-Meehan in person and worked with her on a couple of issues but I will not discuss them here on the floor of the Dáil. In response to the Deputy's substantive question, that is a decision for the Government.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

Will the health service apologise?

Deputy Mary Butler

I apologised to Mrs. Bartley-Meehan in person.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

Will there be a Covid investigation that will examine the case in question?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has asked his question.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

A Covid investigation is a very serious issue and the Government has no plans for one.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Tóibín should please not interrupt. He is taking up time.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

The lack of an answer from the Government on a Covid investigation is very unfortunate.

Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill

The Deputy got his answer.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

There are no terms of reference and no date at all.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is out of order.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

It is disgraceful.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

No, Deputy Tóibín is disgraceful.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Tóibín is out of order. I will not call him again.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

This is very important, a Cheann Comhairle.

An Ceann Comhairle

Of course, it is very important.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

There were 2,300 deaths.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is very important that Deputy Tóibín adhere to the rules of the House. He is out of order and out of time, and if this persists, he will not be called again.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

The childcare sector is in crisis. Although the Government has injected funding into the sector which, thankfully, has made childcare more affordable for parents, that has now created such a high demand that the services are not available to people because they cannot hire staff. Childcare facilities are now routinely turning away families and the waiting lists are getting bigger and bigger. Vacant positions are advertised for months without anyone applying for them. The sustainability of the sector is at risk as childcare professionals, who are highly trained, are not being paid a rate that reflects their education and skills. Childcare facilities cannot meet the increasing costs of business and also pay the rate their staff deserve. There is a significant issue here. The Government has provided extra funding and created extra places to meet the demand, but the childcare facilities cannot meet it. Many of them are struggling. The situation is the same all over the country and the providers are contacting all TDs. We need swift action to be taken to support these excellent, long-standing facilities.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

I thank Deputy McGrath for raising this issue. I believe an employment regulation order is in place for the sector and I understand it is back in negotiation again.

Deputy Joan Collins

I have raised several times the severe lack of certain services across the Dublin 12 area due to a localised lack of public health nurses. We have seen resources taken from one centre and given to another, as was the case with the temporary transfer of nurses from Curlew Road in Drimnagh to Armagh Road in Crumlin. There is one public health nurse for child checks and one for older persons. People still cannot get services for themselves, their children and their families. We need an increased service in Dublin 12. In 2011, Drimnagh was promised those increased services in the form of a Drimnagh primary care centre. It has been 12 years with no delivery of services. Six months ago, in November, the Minister for Health stated that a consultant had been appointed to prepare a strategic assessment report on the proposed centre in Curlew Road. I request that the Minister provide an update on that report and on the progress with the delivery of the centre.

Deputy Mary Butler

I thank Deputy Collins for raising this issue. I acknowledge that she has raised it several times in recent years. During oral questions on health two or three weeks ago, the Minister, Deputy Donnelly, dealt with this question. He has asked the HSE to come forward with proposals. He said he would engage with all the Deputies in the area to try to find a solution. Public health nurses are essential for young babies and their mothers, and also for older people to be able to live well in their own homes.

Deputy Joan Collins

The question was on the primary care centre.

Deputy Richard Bruton

I congratulate the Minister on her initiative of bringing in a pension for those on carer's allowance, but I would like to see progress on two other programme for Government commitments. I refer to the proposal to extend free GP care to those on the carer's support grant and to develop a carer's guarantee that will provide a core basket of services across the country. I ask the Minister to sit down with her ministerial colleagues to develop that. What we need at local level is a family care partnership for family carers where they can register, share information and get flexible support. That is a missing piece, not unlike the community welfare service. That sort of flexibility is not there to support family carers.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

I thank the Deputy for raising this matter. We have improved the supports available to carers considerably in recent years.

I know the Deputy welcomed the carer's pension that is now going to come into place. It is very important to recognise the huge sacrifices many have made in caring for their loved ones, particularly parents of children with disabilities. We have also expanded a number of other supports in terms of the means tests and have increased the limits and amount of money a person can have in savings.

The Minister of State, Deputy Butler, has committed €1.9 million to a carer's guarantee. Within that is a fund for respite for carers. That is very important. I will bring the issue the Deputy raised to the Minister.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

I would like to follow on from Deputy Bruton's question on carers and go a step further by making a plea that we use budget 2025 as an opportunity to once and for all take away the income limit on the means test for carer's allowance. Time and again, every TD has carers coming into his or her office who are €100, €50 or €20 over the means test. There is no flexibility or discretion from the Department in awarding carer's allowance. These people dedicate every minute of their lives to looking after loved ones and they need our help the most. I ask that consideration be given and that, at the very least, we do a cost analysis of getting rid of the means test for carer's allowance in budget 2025.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

Wherever you draw the line when it comes to means tests, people will be either on this side of it or that side of it. There will always be winners and losers. No matter how high the bar goes, there will be losers. From June onwards, a carer can earn €900 per week, for a married couple, and it will not impact on their payment. That has been increased and kicks in in June. Coming up to the budget, I look at all these things but in looking at the means test for carer's allowance we also have to look at the level of care provided. We all know of carers who provide 24-7 care, while other carers getting the same payment provide considerably less care. I am not saying any of it is not important but it is a hugely reduced level of care. In tandem with the lifting of any means test, we have to look at the level of care provided. The Deputy is probably thinking of parents who are 24-7 with a severely disabled child and those are situations we are all aware of.

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

In recent months, I have raised the challenges faced by Le Chéile National School in Limerick city and its need of additional supports. The school is in the second most disadvantaged area in the State, according to Pobal. There are 186 students in the school. School assessments have found 72% of children in the school have at least one additional need. Staff have pleaded for support for two years but support has still not been delivered.

Separately, I raised in a parliamentary question the wait time for two ASD support units at Corpus Christi national school in Moyross. The response confirms the school was approved in 2020 for two special educational needs classrooms and four SET rooms, yet it is four years later and the response states "it is not possible to give a timeframe as to when this project will go to construction". We have supports needed in one school in a disadvantaged area and ASD support classrooms awaiting construction in another disadvantaged area. Why do these schools in Limerick remain under-resourced despite a gaping need for additional supports?

Minister of State at the Department of Education (Deputy Hildegarde Naughton)

As the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, has said, we have a special Cabinet committee making sure health, education, disability and children are all working in relation to children with additional needs. Within my remit, one third of our education budget goes towards special education. For the coming school year, 400 special places are being allocated, of which 300 have already been allocated and the Department is working closely with the NCSE and the schools on the last 100. I will come back to the Deputy directly on that area. In my remit, I want to ramp up the resources for special education. Much good work is happening but we need to make sure the NCSE is being resourced and is working directly with schools to identity areas that need support.

Deputy Claire Kerrane

My colleague, an Teachta Mairéad Farrell, has repeatedly raised the crisis in the apprenticeship system, with the major backlog and waiting time for off-the-job training. Yesterday I was contacted by a young person in Roscommon who is one of the 9,000 waiting to complete that training. He was due to start phase 2 of the training in February 2024 but has been told it will not start until April 2025. He will wait 14 months for phase 2 of off-the-job training. This will add at least a year to his apprenticeship before qualifying. We know apprentices are dropping out and that the average time to qualify is close to six years. If a teaching or nursing course took an additional two years to complete, it would not be acceptable and it should not be acceptable for apprentices. What will the Government do to ensure apprenticeships are completed within a decent and proper term?

Deputy Heather Humphreys

I was here yesterday when Deputy Farrell raised this matter with the Taoiseach. He said he would raise the matter with the Minister and he agreed with what Deputy Farrell was saying. We are investing in apprenticeships to meet skills needs. The apprenticeship narrative in this country has completely changed and that is a good thing. If people are waiting, we will do everything we can to address those backlogs.

Deputy David Stanton

I ask the Minister of State about the Forty-first Amendment to the Constitution (Agreement on a Unified Patent Court) Bill 2024, which I understand is before the Seanad. Will the Government support its passage and enactment so it is ready in time for a referendum?

Deputy Emer Higgins

The Government is committed to ensuring we make patents easier to obtain in this country. As the Deputy will be aware, the Taoiseach has indicated we do not intend to have any referendums between now and the general election but this is something we will continue to work on and progress in the meantime.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

My commiserations to all those who have suffered or are suffering as a result of the Dublin and Monaghan bombings 50 years ago. In view of this atrocity, of the recent revelations in the Kenova inquiry and many other instances of counterinsurgency and of the continued operation of British counterinsurgency activities, as evidenced in the McFadden affair, will the Government call on the British Government to institute a full inquiry into past and present counterinsurgency activities by the British State in Ireland, North and South, and demand an end to such activities, which are totally illegal and unjustifiable? Will it work to ensure the incoming government - I think we all expect a change of government in the UK - will commit to instituting such a thorough inquiry?

Deputy Heather Humphreys

I know the Tánaiste raises those matters with his counterpart, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, on every occasion he meets him. The last meetings were on 18 and 29 April and they were raised at those meetings. He will continue to do so. I will raise the Deputy's concerns with him.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

High-performance computing is at the core of the fourth industrial revolution and is central to growing the Irish economy and securing next-generation foreign direct investment, FDI. Under the watch of An Taoiseach when he was higher education Minister, Ireland's national supercomputer, known as Kay, reached the end of its life last November without a new supercomputer to takes its place. Until we have a new national supercomputer in place, academics, industry and the State will have to use the national supercomputer of Luxembourg. The Government's failure to invest in this certain infrastructure has embarrassed Ireland in the eyes of the European and international technology communities and will no doubt cost us the next generation of talent and affect our ability to attract the FDI of the future. Will the Minister commit that the Government will immediately release funds to secure a new national supercomputer?

An Ceann Comhairle

I would love to see it.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

As a former Minister with responsibility for business, I am somewhat aware of what the Deputy is referring to. I know the Irish Centre for High-End Computing, ICHEC, does a lot of work in that area. I cannot give the Deputy the detail as to why this has not happened but I am sure there is a good reason for it. I will ask the Minister to come back to the Deputy with a response.

Deputy Thomas Pringle

I have been contacted by a number of residents of The Forest, Ballymacool, Letterkenny, County Donegal. They originally qualified for the cost-rental tenant in situ scheme and were waiting for their home to be purchased by the Housing Agency, but then received an abrupt email from the Housing Agency stating it would not proceed with the purchase, with no explanation. Understandably, the residents are very upset by this situation and worried about being made homeless. In Letterkenny, as with everywhere else in the country, it is very difficult to get housing and prices for any that is available are exorbitant. Applicants should be given a reason for the refusal to purchase the properties and an opportunity to allay the fears, if any, within their control. The well-being of the families should be the top priority and any further delays are simply unacceptable. It is imperative that the Housing Agency acknowledges the severity of the issue and takes immediate and decisive action to rectify the situation. Will the Minister ensure that the Housing Agency responds to the residents as soon as possible and gives an explanation for its decision?

Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage (Deputy Darragh O'Brien)

If the Deputy gives me the details, I will take it up directly with the Housing Agency. The tenant in situ scheme has been very successful, as has the cost-rental tenant in situ scheme. If a house is not going to be purchased, the tenants should be given an explanation for that. I am not aware of the details but if the Deputy gives them to me, I will engage directly with the Housing Agency and revert to him.

Deputy Patricia Ryan

Will the Minister of State give an update on Cherry Orchard nursing home and the planned removal and relocation of elderly and vulnerable nursing home residents? I want to know what status of engagement has taken place and if contact has been made with the families and advocates of late, and if so, how recently. As the Minister of State is aware, the situation arose late in 2023 and there are ongoing protests. Has the Minister of State met the families at the protests? When do we expect the remedial work to be completed and the situation resolved?

Deputy Mary Butler

In May 2023, a HIQA inspection identified concerns regarding the flooring in both the sycamore and willow units at Cherry Orchard Hospital. These presented a significant potential health and safety risk and a fire risk and it was something that I could not ignore. It was proposed to remove the residents on a phased basis and, so far, 43 residents have been transferred from Cherry Orchard campus, with 17 residents still on-site. There has been ongoing engagement with the residents. Where any Minister receives a report from HIQA that there is a fire risk in a facility which is a long-term residential home for older people, action has to be taken. I stand over the decision. Forty-three residents have been transferred, with 17 more still on-site whose families are not in a position to move them at the moment. There are spaces available for them and the same terms and conditions will apply to these residents when they move.

Deputy John McGuinness

There are a significant number of parents who cannot get places in the childcare sector in Kilkenny. It is a serious issue for all concerned. I wrote to the Minister and got a very poor response. There needs to be a strong Government response to provide such places. Likewise, with regard to ASD units, schools are expressing interest, they want to have a unit and there is a demand, yet the Government, the Minister, the Department or whoever is responsible is not responding in the way they should. We need to look after our children in both of these categories. As I said, the parents are under severe pressure. I ask that action be taken.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

On the childcare issue, I know the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, in recent weeks allocated two lots of funding to address the issue in regard to capacity. I will raise the issue that the Deputy has raised with regard to Kilkenny. The issue of ASD places was discussed at the Cabinet subcommittee on Monday. It is a priority that no child will be without a place by September.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

GPs in Cork have raised a concern over the removal of some 13,000 people from the waiting list on foot of a National Treatment Purchase Fund, NTPF, validation exercise. While I appreciate that checks of the waiting list have to be made and we all want to see the waiting list come down, we want to see it come down on the basis of people not needing treatment. It is our experience and the experience of GPs that many of these people still require treatment. Many of them have moved address, in particular younger people, and others may have literacy issues. I ask the Minister of State to raise with the Minister for Health the need to ensure that any validation exercises are robust and fair. In truth, phone calls could be a part of that. While I appreciate there is a scale to this, it can be very challenging. People have come to my constituency offices to explain that they have been removed from the list and, effectively, have to start again. It is not dissimilar to the situation with housing. This can be very challenging for people who have been waiting a long time for treatment.

Deputy Mary Butler

For somebody who is on a long-term waiting list, waiting list validation is very important. We have cases where people are on three or four waiting lists and they may already have received the treatment. If the Deputy gives me specifics of the issue in the Cork area, I can have it raised with the office of the Minister, Deputy Donnelly. I know waiting lists are falling. Validation helps in those cases because people sometimes decide to fund services themselves or do it through private health insurance. It is very important that the waiting lists are accurate.

Deputy Matt Shanahan

I had the pleasure of visiting Cappoquin a number of times in the last few months to review the funding there from the rural regeneration and development fund, RRDF, which is progressing very well. I thank the Minister for that and also thank her for the recent grant of funding to Ardmore.

Does the Department of Rural and Community Development have any oversight of rural supports for the Gaeltacht areas? I am reviewing replies to parliamentary questions that I received and they show that the Waterford Gaeltacht received only €6,900 from a €38 million disbursal over four years, and also just €60,000 from a €14.7 million disbursal over six years. I ask that the Department take over the development of the rural Gaeltachtaí because it appears the Department with responsibility for the Gaeltacht does not know that Baile na Déise exists.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

I have been to Cappoquin many times. It is a fine place and the Deputy is doing great work there. Funding of €3.3 million was announced for Ardmore and I know the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, was very keen that we would support it. That came under the rural regeneration development programme.

The Gaeltacht areas get support when they put in applications. A Gaeltacht area in west Cork got support under the rural regeneration fund that was just announced on Monday, although the name of the area eludes me. They need to get their applications in if they want to get support. Many places wonder why they did not get it and it is because they have not put in applications or else they need to work on their applications. For anybody who put in an application and did not get funding, I suggest they get feedback from my Department. What we want to do is help people. We want to spend the money and we want to get it into rural Ireland. Over €116 million was allocated on Monday to projects all over the country. For those who were not successful, they should contact my Department and get feedback on how they can improve their application. It is a case of “If at first you do not succeed, try again.”

An Ceann Comhairle

That seems like a valuable piece of advice.