Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 23 May 2024

Vol. 1054 No. 6

Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate

Defective Building Materials

Deputy Pearse Doherty

I am sure the Minister of State is aware that the defective concrete block crisis has ravaged my county of Donegal and other counties. It has destroyed people's homes, farm buildings and businesses but it is also affecting community organisations across the county. Some of these community organisations are technically being classed as commercial buildings, including organisations like the Raphoe Community Playgroup, which hosts around 45 children. This playgroup owns a building that was built in 2000 with funds from the EU Special Programmes Body for peace and reconciliation, as well as through a lot of hard work and local fundraising initiatives in the town of Raphoe and the surrounding area.

There was great excitement in the town back in 2000 when the playgroup received confirmation that funding had been secured for the new building. The playgroup itself predates the building. It has been in existence since 1982, with thousands of children and families from Raphoe and the surrounding areas availing of its service in that time. Now it is being condemned due the presence of defective concrete blocks. The playgroup has been told that from June it will not have a home. It will not have a safe building from which to serve the community and its future is now in serious doubt. It is shocking that it is in this position through no fault of its own, that it finds itself in this place. The irony is not lost on the local people that this is a building built in 2000 that is directly in the shadow of the historic Raphoe Castle which was built some 400 years ago. It still stands while a building built 24 years ago during a period of light-touch regulation or no regulation has been condemned. A staff member told my party leader, Mary Lou McDonald, and me that she had a kettle older than the building.

The Government has not provided any support or advice for community organisations affected by this crisis. They are not included in the Government's already flawed redress grant and they are not alone. Many community organisations in Donegal are in the same position. This is the next facet of the crisis that is emerging. Where will these community organisations go when their buildings are eventually condemned? It is currently the Department, Pobal and local childcare committees that will have to pick up the pieces regarding this. The Government was warned two years ago that this particular building in Raphoe had defective concrete blocks and would not be safe for children so the news should not have come out of the blue when I raised it again with the Department and the Minister in March. Will the Minister of State outline what measures have been taken to address this? What supports will be provided to Raphoe Community Playgroup and other community groups that will likely soon be in the same position?

It is not good enough for Raphoe Community Playgroup to be left in a position of limbo, which is where it finds itself. The children are fantastic, but they have now taken to drawing slogans and signs that say "save our school". They are doing that to draw attention to their plight. They have nowhere to go in September. They do not know where they will be going. They cannot go back to the school as it has been condemned and there is still uncertainty as to whether this school will be rebuilt. People in Raphoe want to know whether there will be funding to rebuild the building. People across the county also want to know what will happen when it is their turn to move out of their premises because the Government has not provided any clarity on this. It is not acceptable. This is a community not-for-profit organisation the members of which put their hands in their pockets - yes, they got grant aid from Departments in the past - built a home and as a result of no-touch or light-touch regulation find that their building is now crumbling and children, parents and staff do not know where they have to go in September. It is not acceptable. We need clarity today.

Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Mary Butler)

I thank Deputy Doherty for raising this matter and giving me the opportunity to respond on behalf of the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman. When I read the script before coming to the House, I was struck by the fact that not long ago we had a similar discussion about Raphoe counselling services. Thankfully, they have been secured which is a positive outcome. I hope we can provide the same positive outcome for this.

The Department is aware of a service in Donegal with structural issues in its building due to mica and that the service has been told it will have to close in June this year. The Minister has asked Pobal and the Donegal county childcare committee to engage with the service's management board and investigate possible relocation options for the service. A temporary location is currently being reviewed for suitability and the Department has informed Pobal that if it becomes a feasible option for the service, relocation supports and other accommodations such as a four day, 41 week early childhood care and education, ECCE, scheme contract will be supported. Pobal and the Donegal county childcare committee are engaging with the service regarding their plans to communicate ongoing developments to parents and guardians. The Department will engage with Pobal regarding the service and assist with funding a relocation through the case management and sustainability process. Donegal county childcare committee is also working on finding suitable alternative places for children in attendance, to ensure that if the service cannot relocate, there is minimal disruption to their care.

It is important to emphasise that the safety of children and staff is paramount. Services that have had mica identified in their buildings are the subject of regular inspections by engineers and architects. No service will be able to operate if its premises is deemed unsafe, which everyone understands.

One of the Deputy's questions related to what the Department is doing to assist services affected by mica. The Department oversees sustainability funding for services should they need to relocate due to mica. Any service affected by mica should contact its local childcare committee in the first instance. The local childcare committee will assist the service in finding a suitable alternative location and will engage with Pobal and the Department regarding sustainability funding to facilitate the relocation of the service. The local childcare committee will source suitable alternative places for the children attending these services to ensure minimum disruption to their care, should a service be unable to relocate.

The Deputy mentioned that 45 children use the service. It is an important service that dates back to 1982. The building in which it is located dates back to 2000. The Minister, working with Pobal and Donegal County Council, wants to reassure parents and the childcare committees that a suitable location will be found. I have been informed that the local city and county childcare committees are engaging with parents to help to find suitable alternative care. Parents who are affected are encouraged to reach out to their local county childcare committee, details of which can be found on the website. That is all I have from the Minister.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

That is simply not acceptable. I ask the Minister of State to put herself in the shoes of the parents or the staff. She talked about helping the children to find suitable alternative placements if no accommodation can be found. No one knows where those placements are. The staff do not know if there will be jobs for them after September. She previously said that one strand of the sustainability funding that can be accessed through the Department can support the services with the cost of relocation. I welcome that there is at last some sort of intervention by the Government, but it is not good enough for Raphoe Community Playgroup to be left in the limbo it has been. It still does not know whether there is a funding stream and we are now almost in the month of June.

The playgroup has found a place in Raphoe to which some of the children could possibly be relocated on a temporary basis, but it has to be approved by Tusla. The latter still has not happened. As of now, weeks from the date when the building will be deemed to no longer be safe, parents do not know if they will have somewhere safe to send their children. Staff do not know whether they will have jobs or whether they will be able to pay their mortgages. That is simply not good enough. The fact is that the town of Raphoe wants its designated permanent playgroup building that residents raised money to build. There is no guarantee that the funding will be available for that either. Rightly, they will not settle for anything less and I support them in that.

In previous correspondence with me, the Minister of State suggested the possible relocation of children and she said that again today. This should not be acceptable. Children and parents should be able to stay in their own communities, in a community that fundraised for the building. The relocation of children to where? I repeat, we are now almost in June and we still do not know. Parents and staff have been left in limbo. Will the staff have jobs in June? Can the Minister of State guarantee that will be the case? Can she provide clarity for those who are worried?

Going forward, the Government will have to think about the impact defective blocks are having on similar services in the county and make sure we are better prepared. It was notified of this issue two years ago. We are days away from the deadline when the building will be condemned. Children do not know where they will be going. Parents do not know where the children will go. Tusla has not approved the alternative accommodation. The staff do not know whether they will have jobs or whether these children will be scattered to the four winds to different places that might be located miles away. It is not acceptable. This happened because of light-touch regulation on the part of the Government. We still do not have a plan weeks out from a decision on the building being made. I am really disheartened by the Minister of State's response. We need better from the Government.

Deputy Mary Butler

To clarify, a temporary location is currently being reviewed for suitability. I cannot be clearer than that. The Department has informed Pobal that if it becomes a feasible option for the service, relocation supports and other accommodations, such as a four-day, 41-week ECCE scheme contract will be supported. As the Deputy said, we all have to acknowledge that not only the children and parents, but also the staff who work there, are looking for certainty.

It is a unique situation and each service will need to be supported on an individual basis. Pobal and the Donegal County Childcare Committee are engaging with the service regarding their plans to communicate ongoing developments to parents and guardians. Communication is really important because some children will return in September but more new children will start the ECCE programme for the first time. The Department will engage with Pobal regarding this service and assist in funding a relocation through the case management and sustainability process.

I will bring the Deputy’s concerns back to the Department of children. Time is of the essence, I agree. The children, their parents and staff need certainty on this.

Nursing Homes

Deputy Gino Kenny

I hope the Minister of State will be able to shed some light on what is happening with Lucan Lodge Nursing Home. There is a lot of uncertainty about its future. The 73 residents and 85 staff have been told recently that the nursing home might close down. This is having an effect on the relatives of the residents. There is a great deal of stress about what is happening.

I understand the HSE has taken charge of the running of the facility because the operator of the home, Passage Healthcare, has gone into liquidation. The residents, staff and the relatives want to know what is the future of the nursing home. There is a great deal of stress and uncertainty over whether it will close down. I hope it will not and the HSE will come up with solutions to keep the facility open.

There are a number of possible scenarios. A new operator might run the facility or the HSE could directly intervene and run it, which is probably the best solution. As we have seen, 80% of all nursing homes are privately operated for profit rather than the common good. The operator can no longer run this nursing home. There have been issues with fire regulations in Lucan Lodge Nursing Home and another facility Passage Healthcare operated in Tallaght, Sally Park Nursing Home. These issues caused enormous inconvenience to residents in Sally Park and are now causing great inconvenience to the residents in Lucan Lodge. It is important that residents are given some sort of assurance about the future of the nursing home. Hopefully, a solution can be found to keep it open and the residents in place.

Deputy Mary Butler

I thank Deputy Kenny for raising this issue. I remain deeply concerned to learn that HIQA had to cancel the registration of Lucan Lodge Nursing Home. The focus at this time is ensuring the welfare of the 70 residents in this private nursing home during this difficult time.

Lucan Lodge Nursing Home is situated in a residential area in Lucan. The provider was registered as a designated centre under the Health Act 2007 to provide for the care of up to 74 residents over 18 years, male and female, with 24-hour nursing care available.

The designated centre is a residential care setting operated, as the Deputy said, by Passage Healthcare International (Ireland) Limited. Passage Healthcare also operated Sally Park Nursing Home in Firhouse. Sally Park was deregistered in February 2024 due to non-compliance with regulations in several areas, in particular in relation to aspects of fire safety. Passage Healthcare had been in examinership, but my understanding is that the receiver has removed the protection of examinership and a liquidator will be appointed.

HIQA inspections at Lucan Lodge have uncovered significant issues, including that the registered provider did not ensure a safe and appropriate premises was provided in line with its conditions of registration and did not ensure that the centre was appropriately resourced to ensure appropriate care delivery in line with residents' assessed needs. That is one of the issues that we must look at. Anyone can google the previous HIQA report on Lucan Lodge, which set out very many concerns. HIQA informed me, as Minister of State, and the HSE last Thursday that it would have to deregister the facility. It happened as quickly as that. It also informed the provider. It is complicated by the fact the provider does not own the premises, which is leased from a third party. This is something we see a lot.

The chief inspector of HIQA has taken action to cancel the registration of Lucan Lodge Nursing Home as a care provider with effect from 10 a.m. last Friday. The HSE, liaising with Lucan Lodge Nursing Home, HIQA and the staff, took interim charge of the nursing home effective from 10.01 a.m. that day. HSE staff have completed an initial assessment process on the clinical care of residents. The HSE will act as the interim registered provider to support residents and their families during this time.

On Tuesday, I met with the new regional health organiser for the area in question and the chief officer who is still in place in the area to discuss the nursing home. I have written to the HSE asking it to explore all options because 74 beds is a large number of long-term residential care beds to lose from any particular area. We are not even a week into the situation. I also spoke to the member of staff from the HSE who is on-site. Since Tuesday, she has been communicating with families to try to reassure them that the HSE is on-site and that the best care will be provided to the residents. It is also supporting the staff. I am open to correction but the details I have been given indicate that a minimum of 25 of the staff are from outside the EU and have permits associated with Lucan Lodge Nursing Home. There are a lot of complicating factors here. I am keeping a very close eye on the matter.

Deputy Gino Kenny

This is a set of extraordinary circumstances. Googling this operator, it claims to be a multibillion dollar health provider in the United States. It is not some makeshift provider by any means. It has enormous assets behind it. Alarm bells are ringing about its very rudimentary fire compliance both in Sally Park and Lucan Lodge nursing homes. There are very serious questions to be asked of the provider.

The residents are at the heart of this. Some have been in the nursing home for a considerable period and some are receiving end-of-life care. This is extremely sensitive. I hope a solution can be found to keep Lucan Lodge open.

I got an email 20 minutes ago from the owner of Lucan Lodge stating they have written to the HSE. They want the facility to be kept open for the residents. They have written to the HSE setting out what needs to be done to keep the home open. That is important. What we do not want is for Lucan Lodge to close because it would have a detrimental effect on everyone involved.

There are two possible solutions. One is that a new operator is found and the other is that the HSE directly intervenes and either buys the home or runs it directly to keep the residents and staff in place. As the Minister of State said, there are other complications in relation to the staff.

Deputy Mary Butler

The Deputy is right that this is a complicated issue. It is an evolving situation. As I mentioned, all options are being explored. I wrote to the HSE last Friday and asked it to explore all options. Regular engagements are taking place between the Department of Health, the HSE and HIQA. Before this nursing home is registered again, only one organisation can register it and it will only register a facility when it is fit for purpose and all issues have been addressed. HIQA does not like having to withdraw authorisation from any facility.

It does not like doing that. When HIQA issues reports, they are very clear. It will work with any provider to form a plan and a timeline regarding the concerns it has raised. Unfortunately, last week it had to take the position that it could no longer register the facility due to health and safety issues.

I also want to put the following on the record. I often say in this Chamber that the HSE has statutory responsibility as the provider of last resort. I am often criticised for saying that by private nursing homes but that is the fact. When something goes wrong, the HSE will always have to step in and it will have to be staffed accordingly. That is what it is doing at the moment. It did not even have 24 hours’ notice in this case but it is there and is working with the staff in place. It is working with the families, the residents and the staff. The Department of Health, the HSE and HIQA are all working together, as well as, I hope, the provider. That is my understanding. It is evolving and I will keep the Deputy updated. We are very early into this - it has currently been six days. My primary focus is for the residents to be looked after and personally I would like to see a long-term solution and not lose the 74 beds.

Deputy Gino Kenny

I thank the Minister of State.

Post Office Network

Deputy Paul Murphy

The people of Tallaght are up in arms about the plan to close the post office in the Square, Tallaght, to privatise it and to reopen a smaller post office with fewer services in a different location. Almost 2,000 people have signed a petition that was delivered to the GPO last week, where An Post informed the campaigners that it intends to proceed.

I have been doing a lot of work on this and have been speaking with a lot of people. I have not come across a single person who has anything bad to say about the staff in the post office, who provide an outstanding service. It is not just a matter of the basic bread and butter of a post office; it is a real community service for people. Tallaght is not the only location that is on the chopping block of this privatisation agenda. Rathmines, Phibsborough, New Ross, Roscommon and Tipperary are in a similar situation.

I can predict, because I am a mind reader, what the Minister of State will say in response. As well as being a mind reader, I also have a letter from the Minister for the environment, which states that An Post indicated that the change in business model of the six offices will not in any way change the range or extent of services offered. That is just not accurate. That might be what An Post is telling the Minister, but it is not even really what An Post is telling me.

I got a similar commitment from An Post. I wrote back to it to ask if it could confirm the number of staff working in the new post office in Tallaght will not be reduced from the current number and if it could confirm that the number of physical counters will not be reduced. I received information back, which stated:

We will almost certainly be moving, but staff and counters are normally pitched to the numbers coming in the doors. Post offices often have extra counters that are never used in practice.

It stated that it has no plan to do anything other than to have a top-notch facility. In other words, there was no guarantee that the same number of staff will remain. There was no guarantee the same number of counters would remain. In reality, what will happen is that there will be a reduction in the number of staff and a reduction in the number of counters.

We know that these contractor-led post offices often do not provide the same level of service. Currently, people are often directed to the post office in the Square, Tallaght, to get the full range of services, for example, to get prize bonds, etc., because the privately operated post offices can effectively opt out of them. I just do not see how in the real world having fewer staff and counters is a guarantee to provide the same service.

The workers are being treated abysmally. Again, I have correspondence with An Post about this. The workers are not being given the option to transfer over to the contractor operation. The workers are not being given the option of voluntary redundancy. They are being given no option whatsoever. They are going to be transferred elsewhere within An Post in Dublin. They will probably have to go from a situation where they live and work in Tallaght to a situation where they will have a one-hour commute into and out of town every single day.

That is not even the worst of it. Once the post office is no longer directly run by An Post, as is the case with the majority of post offices across the country, there will be no guarantee that it will stay at all. Over the past three or four years, approximately 200 post offices, which were all contractor-run post offices, have been closed down across the country. This is not something that is just happening in rural areas, although it should not be happening in rural areas. It is also happening elsewhere in Dublin South-West. In Templeogue and Rathfarnham, post offices have closed. In one circumstance, this was because the shop it was in closed. In another circumstance, it was because the postmaster died. No one has replaced them and An Post has said this has nothing to do with it because this is a contractor-led operation.

This is a two-stage process. Step one is having smaller or fewer services, which is bad for the workers. Step two is when the post office goes entirely. This plan should be withdrawn and the Government should put pressure on An Post to do so.

Deputy Mary Butler

I thank the Deputy for raising this really important issue and I welcome the opportunity to outline the position on the matter on behalf of the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan and the Minister of State, Deputy Chambers. Both the Minister and the Minister of State are aware of the impact that decisions relating to changes in An Post operations have on communities and individuals, in both rural and urban areas.

An Post is a commercial State company with a mandate to act commercially and, as such, day-to-day operational matters, including decisions in relation to the size, distribution and future of the network are matters for the board and the management of the company, not ones in which either the Minister or Minister of State have a statutory function.

The Minister has responsibility for the postal sector, including the governance oversight of An Post, to ensure the company is compliant with the code of practice for the governance of State bodies and the governance functions included in the statutory framework underpinning An Post. In line with its ongoing transformation, as the Deputy has said, An Post has announced that it is converting six post offices from An Post-operated to contractor-operated, one of which being the Tallaght office. That post office will join the mainstream of national post offices, in that more than 90% of the country’s 900 post offices are operated by contractors. It should be noted that fewer than 40 post offices throughout the State are now run directly by An Post. I have the same correspondence the Deputy has, which states that An Post has indicated that the change in business model of the six offices will not in any way alter the range or extent of the services offered by An Post in those locations. I think those are the words the Deputy read out.

An Post has, over the last number of years, been transforming its business by delivering new products and new formats in the way it operates. This includes, among other things, diversifying and growing the financial services products it provides for individuals and small- and medium-sized enterprises, to include loans, credit cards, more foreign exchange products, local banking in association with the major banks and a full range of State savings products. An Post is providing agency banking services for AIB and Bank of Ireland across its network of post offices.

The Government agreed that an amount of €10 million per annum will be provided by the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications - this is what the Government is doing to support post offices - over a three-year fixed term to support the postmasters, with funding to be dispersed across the post office network. The funding is being paid monthly for each 12-month period. More than €12.2 million has been claimed by An Post to the end of March 2024 for the postmaster network.

The programme for Government recognises that a modernised post office network will provide a better range of financial services and e-commerce services for citizens and enterprise, as part of our commitment to a sustainable nationwide post office network. The overall €30 million in funding that is being provided to support a sustainable, nationwide post office network is in line with this commitment.

I am answering this on behalf of the Minister, but I will make a comment under my own brief as the Minister of State with responsibility for older people. We lost the post office in An Rinn, the Gaeltacht area of Waterford last week. We did have somebody who was prepared to take it on but unfortunately, it just was not financially viable. Many older people use the post office every week-----

Deputy Paul Murphy

Yes.

Deputy Mary Butler

-----and it is what they have always done. Losing a post office in a local community is very distressing. Money claimed locally is spent locally. Maybe in 30 or 40-years’ time that whole generation will have passed on and post offices will not be as important. Yet, as Minister of State with responsibility for older people, I can understand how important post offices are to the local community. I am saying that on a personal level.

Deputy Paul Murphy

I agree entirely. A very high proportion of those who are signing the petition or who are getting involved in the campaign are older people. It is a community focal point for many people who go to the post office on a weekly basis to get their bits and pieces done, and to meet and chat with people. Again, everyone speaks so highly of those workers, who are now being put in a very difficult situation.

As I predicted, the Minister of State read out a sentence about how An Post has indicated that nothing will change in terms of the service model.

Again, I say to the Minister of State and the Minister, who will hopefully read the transcript, that I have the email correspondence from An Post which clearly states that it is not committing to keeping the same number of staff or the same number of counters. In what world does that amount to a guarantee that the same services are going to be provided to the community?

What is happening is that there is a long-term agenda to significantly reduce the number of An Post branches throughout the country. As long as they are directly run by it, which 10% are, An Post cannot politically do that because it is very difficult to shut down a post office. There will be a community response based around older people and others who use post offices and An Post will be forced back. There is a two-stage process. First, An Post washes its hands of the post office and tells people not to worry. It states that everything will be the same and that the post office will be run by a contractor. Second, either An Post says the post office is no longer financially viable -that is definitely not the case when it comes to Tallaght because it must be one of the busiest post offices in the country - the postmaster dies or something else happens. I have also seen this in the context of Rathfarnham. The Government says that all of this has nothing to do with it.

This is about running down our national network of post office branches. We should be opposing it and the Government should be opposing it. An Post should withdraw this proposal. Exactly the same points could be made about Rathmines, Phibsborough, New Ross, Tipperary and Roscommon, given that the same sort of campaigns have been run there and the same issues exist. I appeal to An Post, even at this late stage, to withdraw the plan.

Deputy Mary Butler

The Deputy will appreciate that the Minister cannot intervene in matters which the Oireachtas has given An Post a statutory responsibility to fulfil. An Post has an independent board that has a clear mandate. I accept that the Deputy is not happy that the post office is being converted. However, I am thankful that it is not proposed that the post office be closed.

I encourage everyone to use the post office. I say that every time I have an opportunity to speak on this issue. It is not only in rural areas, it is also in urban areas. Post offices depend on over-the-counter transactions. Given the increase in the number of online transactions, however, it is very important that people continue to support post offices. The Deputy said the Tallaght post office is extremely busy, but that is not always the case. I ask people to continue to support post offices.

I will bring the Deputy’s concerns back to the Minister and his officials in person. The Deputy referred to a petition with over 2,000 signatories, the majority of whom are older people who are used to the post office as it currently operates.

Heritage Sites

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy O’Donnell. This is the first time that the line Minister of State has come to the House to address this question. This is probably the 20th or 22nd time it has been raised in the House, so I thank the Minister of State for recognising its importance.

The issue relating to Castletown House in Celbridge dates back to September of last year. The latter is a protected structure of local, historical, architectural and amenity interest to the people in the area and throughout the country. It has a value in that it houses the Castletown collection, which is there for public scrutiny and enjoyment. It also has extensive grounds of some 170 acres that were in the ownership of the OPW for several years.

The unfortunate crux that arises is that the adjacent land that was part of the original estate is now in the hands of a private owner. As a result, despite the facility being available to the OPW in the past, the public and people who have an interest in history, architecture and tourism in the area are prohibited from using the entrance that was used by agreement for over 15 years. Access was from the M4 motorway to the house, and there are car-parking facilities available.

The Minister of State has very kindly engaged with all of the entities involved in an effort to bring about a resolution. Unfortunately, the response from the owner of the adjoining land has been to put a gate across the avenue by which the public travelled from the M4 to the joint properties owned by the OPW and himself. This has created a serious impasse. The local people are up in arms and have rightly placed pickets on the gates since September. Unfortunately, there has been an attempt, although not by the current Minister of State, to blame the local people for the situation that has emerged. That is wrong, it is not fair and it completely removes the focus from where it should be.

On a Monday morning in September 2023, when it found out the access was being changed and was no longer going to be available, the OPW decided to send a team of operatives with angle grinders to open up new access onto the main street in Celbridge. That street is probably one of the most heavily trafficked streets in the country. This effort was made in order to open up a new entrance on the basis that it was the traditional route used when an earlier version of the gate was in place. It was thought this would resolve the problem. Of course, the house was built 300 years ago and what was an accessible and obvious route at that time is no longer available because of the current volume of traffic on main street, which has grown out of all proportion.

My call is that the Minister of State try to resolve this matter in whatever way possible in the shortest time possible, because sufficient time has elapsed since it arose.

Minister of State at the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform (Deputy Kieran O'Donnell)

I thank the Deputy. I felt it was important for me to be here for the debate. I thank the Deputy for his long-standing interest in Castletown House and estate. The Deputy has made ongoing representations through parliamentary questions and Oireachtas committees with regard to Castletown House and estate. He and his fellow representatives of Kildare are valued members of the Castletown House and estate stakeholders working group. This group was initiated by my predecessor, the then Minister of State, Deputy O'Donovan, in October 2023 to progress the reuniting of the historic demesne and access issues to Castletown House and estate. The group includes representatives of the community and all of the local political representatives in the area. To date, I have convened two meetings of this working group in my capacity as Minister of State with responsibility for the OPW. As Deputy Durkan will be aware, I have scheduled a third meeting for next Tuesday, 28 May, to discuss all of the outstanding issues in relation to Castletown estate. I very much value the input of the working group.

Since I previously addressed this matter, I understand that the owner of the M4 lands has erected a gate across the entrance to those lands at the boundary between the section of privately owned road and the access spur road owned by the local authority. This entrance has been used by visitors to Castletown House to access the estate by means of the road and temporary car park previously used by the OPW under licence, which is known locally as the road off the M4. However, the placing of a gate on private property is not a matter over which the OPW has any control. The owners of lands are entitled to control access to their lands as they see fit, subject to compliance with the planning process.

As part of the policy to seek to reunite the historic Castletown demesne lands with the house and lands in the care of the State, the OPW has sought on several occasions to purchase the lands in question from Janus Securities, including when the lands were offered for sale on the open market in 2022. However, despite the very best efforts of the OPW, the State was outbid in the open market process and, ultimately, the lands were acquired by a private purchaser. However, it remains the strategic objective of the OPW to reunite all of the lands of the former Castletown estate where those lands are available for purchase. The OPW remains open to negotiations with the landowners to purchase all or part of the subject lands.

In line with a recent commitment I gave to the working group at our last meeting, earlier this week I met with the owners to discuss this further. I believe the meeting was a positive one and follow-on engagement is to take place.

I underline that the commitment of the OPW to the gradual consolidation of the former estate cannot be doubted. The OPW took ownership of Castletown House and estate in 1994. Much of the original demesne lands acquired over the years were in poor condition. The OPW has worked to open up the lands and to restore many of the landscape features, particularly the historic network of pathways across the estate and the vista towards the Conolly Folly.

At the meeting of the working group on 22 February, one of the community organisations submitted a proposal to the OPW that would see staff accessing the site through Lime Avenue at certain times of the day and leave the avenue primarily for pedestrians for the core part of the day, including during school commuting times. This was proposed as a temporary measure. It was further discussed at the working group meeting on 11 March. The key element of this proposal is an independent health and safety assessment of the impact of limited vehicular access on Lime Avenue. The OPW has appointed a health and safety professional from an Office of Government Procurement framework to carry out a specific audit of the use of the vehicular and pedestrian access routes for people with disabilities and external contractors. The safety audit is in draft form and will be a subject for discussion with the working group.

I go back to the core point the Deputy raised. As Minister of State, I want to work with all groups in order that we get Castletown and the estate fully reopened. I need to get the workers back in so we can deal with this issue. I had that engagement with the owners of the adjoining lands last week. It was a positive meeting. There will be a follow-on engagement, and I remain committed to working with Deputy Durkan, his colleagues and the community to find a way forward and a solution here.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Unfortunately, time is running out fast. I have here an email from a local resident who is a strong supporter of the need to ensure that access to Castletown House continues uninterrupted and unimpeded. She refers to a petition in 2024 of 5,000 signatures and support for the petition to keep Lime Avenue pedestrian and to ensure that it is not shared with any traffic because it is too dangerous. It will not facilitate a reorganisation of the avenue to allow the two, but access to the grounds and the adjoining grounds can be agreed if necessary and if possible with the adjoining landowner. It would appear to me, however, that the adjoining landowner has put a spoke in the wheel by putting a gate across the avenue, which signals his intention, to my mind, not to relent at all, and that a situation could emerge whereby the State could find itself unable to access its own lands. As the Minister of State has rightly pointed out, the adjoining landowner is entitled to access his own lands. So is the State, however, and it would now appear that the adjoining landowner is proposing to ensure that only at his gift will the public or the State access their own property.

I think there is now a case to be challenged in court if necessary - it should be done sooner rather than later - and that is whether the State has the right to access its own lands and property, to go to and from those lands and to service those lands, Castletown House and the Castletown collection at will, uninterrupted and unimpeded. It is an important issue. It has to be thrashed out sooner or later, and I strongly urge that it be done sooner in order that the State will have equal rights with an adjoining private landowner.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

I note Deputy Durkan's utter commitment in this area. I think everyone is of a common bond, which is that we want to see Castletown House reopened and want the estate back to normal functioning hours. The overlying thing is that it remains the strategic objective of the OPW to acquire the remaining lands to reunite all the lands at the former estate. I gave a commitment to the working group that in my time as Minister of State with responsibility for the OPW, Lime Avenue will continue to be pedestrianised. We may, on a temporary basis, require staffing to reopen it, but any result which gives rise to permanent vehicular access to Lime Avenue will not happen while I am Minister of State with responsibility for the OPW. It is a pedestrian access; it has been so. We need to get the staff back in. We are looking at a safety audit, which we will discuss with the working group. I note the point the Deputy has raised, and he has been very consistent on that. We are working to a common objective to be able to get full opening hours and full access for the public. Part of that is to get the staff back in as well. I committed to the working group that I would meet the owners of the land. I did that last week. I believe it was a positive meeting. There will be a further engagement. My abiding commitment is to work with public representatives such as Deputy Durkan, who is a long-standing Member of the House and has been very much to the fore on this issue for the people of the area. I want to work in a collaborative way. Anyone who knows me knows I want to find and explore every single conceivable avenue to find a resolution with everyone working together. As I have said, Castletown estate is the Phoenix Park for Celbridge, the Deputy's area, Leixlip, Maynooth and the general area. I want to ensure that it is fully reopened and I look forward to my further engagement with the working group next Tuesday, along with the Deputy's good self.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Including the opening of the gates, as per September last. The gates will open for pedestrians and Lime Avenue will open for pedestrians.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

There is an issue with Lime Avenue, as Deputy Durkan is well aware. I have a fiduciary duty to staff in the OPW as well. We have had discussions with the unions. There are issues we need to deal with, including health and safety, and I want the report we are doing to be a common basis for discussion. Ultimately, we want to get Castletown House and the grounds fully reopened. There is a combination of factors we have to deal with. The public are uppermost in my mind but, equally, I have a duty to the staff, who clearly want to get back in as well. No stone will be left unturned. I look forward to continuing what has been a very constructive exchange with the working group, and we will take that up again next Tuesday.

An Ceann Comhairle

I thank Deputy Durkan and all the Members who submitted Topical Issues and the Ministers of State for being here to deal with them.