JOINT COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE AND FOOD debate -
Wednesday, 7 Apr 2004

Women in Agriculture: Presentation.

Chairman

The minutes of the meeting held on 6 April 2004 have been circulated. Are the minutes agreed? Agreed.

I welcome Ms Mary Carroll, the IFA equality officer, and Ms Mary McGreal of the IFA national farm family committee. Before asking Ms Carroll to make her opening remarks I draw the witnesses' attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege the same privilege does not apply to witnesses. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on or criticise persons outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Ms Carroll to commence her presentation.

Ms Mary Carroll

: Thank you, Chairman. We are delighted to have the opportunity to make a presentation to this key committee. I have circulated a copy of the presentation to members. There are not many fora in which we can present information about women in agriculture. Perhaps after today that will change.

I ask members to close their eyes and visualise their image of a farmer. I do not wish to be presumptuous but I expect for many people the image is of a man on a tractor or working in a field. Some people may have visualised a woman.

Senator McCarthy

It was of a woman making a presentation to an Oireachtas committee.

Ms Carroll

That is excellent. I suppose I am a farmer too. However, when one thinks of farming one seldom thinks of women.

I work as equality officer with the Irish Farmers Association and I manage a programme which tries to encourage farm women to become more actively involved in the IFA. That is the core aim of our project, which is two years old. We have done much work with women in agriculture and have had widespread consultation throughout the country. This process has highlighted many issues for women in farming.

Many people feel equality means replacing one side with another. It is not concerned with replacing male dominance with female dominance but with establishing a partnership between men and women in agriculture. The IFA has 85,000 members, which is a huge proportion of the farming population. The association is well organised throughout the country. Like the GAA and the Catholic Church it has branches in every parish. It is a highly structured organisation. However, women constitute only 5% of the active members of IFA committees. Our project is concerned with improving this situation. The IFA is not particularly bad or wrong. The small percentage of women on its committees simply reflects the way women are treated in agriculture generally and their small role in agricultural politics.

We have done much work with women in agriculture since we started this project two years ago. We held a conference in Croke Park in October of last year. It was called Fast Forward and its theme was action. Women felt the button had been on pause for long enough and it was time to move things on. The conference was attended by 600 women from all over Ireland. Many issues were highlighted.

I do not know if members are familiar with the report of the advisory committee on the role of women in agriculture which was produced in September 2000. The report was the result of widespread consultation with many groups. It made 37 recommendations for action which focused on employment training, information technology, representation of women, social inclusion and personal, financial and legal issues. In January 2004 a progress report was published, updating action on the 2000 report. It is encouraging to see that some things have moved on. We welcome changes in women's roles and the work of the national development forum, which meets in open session twice a year. We also welcome the gender equality unit in the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. We welcome these positive steps forward.

While those major actions have been taken there is still a gap for women in agriculture which is not being addressed by these actions. This is not a criticism of any person or Department. It is simply a fact. Today's presentation will outline a model which can be used to block this gap. The model is based on our consultation with women throughout Ireland and on international experience, especially in Europe and Australia.

There have been numerous reports on women in agriculture and all of them say women play a huge role in agriculture. Sometimes that role is undervalued. Women are told they play an important role and are the backbone of rural development but much of their work is invisible and is not counted. That invisibility has often led to statistical gaps when the role of women in policy is assessed. Do members of the committee know what percentage of Irish farm owners are female? Is it 5%, 10%, 15% or 20%?

Deputy Harkin

Is it 5%?

Senator McCarthy

Is it 5%?

Ms Carroll

It is actually 10%, which is better than members think. Many audiences are surprised to hear the percentage is so high. Only 10% of farmers, in their own name, are women. Therefore, 90% of farmers are men. This gives us an idea of the culture of Irish farming.

However, 25% of full-time workers on Irish farms are women. This tells a different story. Even though women do not own land they are involved in working full-time on the farm. This percentage is a huge decrease. Ten years ago the percentage was 40%. This decline is largely due to women taking off-farm jobs. This is an important role because these jobs often support the farm enterprise and without them many farms would have been forced out of business. Compared with the rest of Europe, Irish women represent a smaller proportion of farm labour but a significantly higher proportion of full-time workers.

Women are involved in farms and play a huge role on them. They drive tractors, do inside work, look after children and are multi-tasking on farms. I show some pictures, which we do not often see, of women actively involved on farms.

Recent trends show that these statistics might be about to change. A study by Dr. Terry Cunningham of Teagasc has shown that because of smaller and single sex families more farms will be inherited by women. He suggests that one fifth of all farms will be inherited by daughters in the future. Will these daughters farm their land as farmers in their own right? I think not, unless we have a proactive programme at all levels to ensure these women are given a real choice to become farmers. Not to do this would be to deny women their own options and farming would also suffer.

My colleague, Ms Mary McGreal, who will identify the gap left by the absence of women from agriculture.

Ms Mary McGreal

The report on the role of women in agriculture, to which Ms Carroll referred, focused on the importance of gender proofing. However, last September the Department of Agriculture and Food published an explanatory guide to the CAP reform decision. A person reading this guide would not think women were involved in agriculture. It refers to the farmer, his land, his pension and his rights and to the farmer leaving his land to his son. This is a small example of how the Department still does not acknowledge the role of women in agriculture.

Specific problems face women in agriculture. I am thinking of recent headlines such as, "Hearing the Woman's Voice", "Changing the Landscape for Farm Women", "One Woman's Search for Parity" and "Whose Farm is it Anyway?". These indicate that there are issues for women in agriculture.

Last year we had consultation throughout the country and came face to face with many of these issues. Some of the key issues for women in agriculture, identified through the IFA structure and committees, include PRSI for farm spouses. Many women in agriculture have worked all their lives on a farm. Now as many of them reach retirement they do not form part of the statistics and there is no record of them ever having worked, which is terrible.

In our system farmers, like other self-employed people, pay class S PRSI which typically covers only one person, the farmer. Farmers' spouses or partners, usually the wife, who assist and participate in the farm business are not covered for social insurance purposes as self-employed persons or as employees. They are treated as qualified adult dependants as regards payments and benefits. Although a group of officials from the relevant Department met and made a recommendation, this has not advanced the issue. This group proposed the partnership option as a solution. However, the reality is that Ireland has a slow uptake on partnership.

We should not conclude that the issue of PRSI coverage has been resolved by the availability of the partnership option. The most recent Central Statistics Office figures show that only 3% of the Department of Agriculture and Food's client database is held in joint names, despite the fact that 68% of farmers operating farms are married. A code of practice from the Department as well as partnership proofing of schemes could usefully help this situation.

Herd numbers are central to farming life and the financial operation of farms. Only 10% of herd numbers are registered in female names. Joint herd numbers are allowed but are not very common, amounting to only 3% of all herd owners. Many farm spouses believe, rightly or wrongly, that the Department of Agriculture and Food does not allow them to maintain a herd number in their own right because of their gender or marital status. On the death of a herd owner, the difficulty of transfer of payment to the spouse needs review. Payments should be easily available to the spouse and family, especially at such a difficult time.

The lack of representation of women in decision-making structures in agriculture has been clearly identified. In terms of farming organisations and other agri-political structures women do not participate to any great extent. The capacity of women to participate effectively at varying levels is a fundamental issue. In 1993, the then Government announced a policy to ensure that at least 40% of all State board members would be women. This is as low as 14% in some Departments, among which is the Department of Agriculture and Food. We recognise and support the Minister's call for more women on agricultural boards. This is vital to change attitudes and culture regarding women in agriculture.

The IFA has been criticised in the past for not nominating women to vacancies on State agricultural boards. However, the IFA is a democratic organisation where people are elected to positions and it is the person in the relevant position who gets the nomination to the relevant board. The number of women in such positions in the IFA is relatively low which means we do not have a sufficient pool of women from which to nominate board members. However, the IFA equality project is actively working to increase the number of women in such key positions and in agricultural politics generally.

Our culture has much to do with the lack of involvement of women. The key overarching theme affecting women's role in agriculture is the culture of a male dominated sector. In broad terms this covers the lack of representation of women on boards, attitudes of farm support agencies to the role of women on farms, the portrayal of the image of women farmers and the traditional transfer of land through the male line. All this makes it difficult for women to take their rightful position in the agricultural world. The attitude exists where somebody drives into a yard and asks "Where's the boss?" without ever imagining that the boss might be the woman to whom they are speaking.

It is time for action and in order to make real change, especially in light of cultural factors, we need to make progressive radical changes. It is not that nothing has changed but that the change has been so fragmented and so slow. When one considers that no less than 19 different Departments and agencies are involved in reviewing the implementation of the recommendations of the 2000 report of the advisory committee on the role of women in agriculture, it is hardly surprising that change has been this slow.

We came here today because we are determined to drive forward the agenda for women in Irish agriculture. Women in agriculture demand a commitment from Government that it will give serious priority to our agenda. We demand a commitment that the Government will put structures in place to oversee the full implementation of core recommendations which have been on the table for years. Our Croke Park conference declaration, which was supported by 600 delegates, called on the Government to set up a women in agriculture unit which would lead the development and implementation of viable strategies and policies in full co-operation with other Departments and agencies. We hope that will happen from today. Thank you.

Chairman

Thank you. Does Ms Carroll want to comment?

Ms Carroll

The term blocking the gap is often used in the farming context because women are often asked to block the gap. We are turning the tables now and are asking this committee to help us block the gap. Ms McGreal has outlined the gap clearly with regard to women in agriculture. These women are a key and growing client group of the Department of Agriculture and Food. How we block the gap is the key issue.

I ask the committee to bear with me for a few minutes. I will not spend much time on the matter but will take the committee on a quick world tour. It is important to look to other countries and see what is happening. There is much movement on this agenda around the world. The most recent edition of the newsletter of the International Federation of Agricultural Producers, IFAP, is especially focused on women in agriculture. One of the key issues highlighted in that special edition is that women farmers must be heard by their own governments and that governments must adopt a positive attitude towards improving the living conditions of women farmers around the world.

IFAP suggested that gender disaggregated statistics should be collected. This is important. It is easier to get statistics on crops and animals than on women. The newsletter also pointed out that women need better access to training and that there should be greater media recognition of women as farmers. I said earlier that we should close our eyes and try to see our image of a farmer. This returns us to the media view of women as farmers.

We have linked ourselves to Australia from our start so let us look to it as an example. Australia is about ten years ahead of us in terms of actions it has taken for women in farming. While farming in Australia is different to here, the issues are similar with regard to farm women. Ten years ago Australia set up a rural women's unit in the Department of Agriculture because it realised it was missing out on a key client group. This provides us with a successful model. This unit was set up and is part of Australia's overall strategy for diversity in farming. It is now also looking at young people and groups which may have felt neglected by the department.

The unit promotes the contribution women make to rural industries and encourages them to become part of decision making in those industries. It also assists the Department of Agriculture to ensure that all its policies are informed by a broader range of perspectives. In its various roles it has produced information on issues, for example, its women as clients strategy. This is a very useful document and I have some copies of it, if anyone is interested. The document was issued to all officers in the field. At the end of the day it is the officer of the Department meeting the farmer who needs to be informed about how to deal with women as clients. That is a very important role it has played there. It set up various initiatives to promote women. There are rural women's awards and national conferences for rural women.

While Australia is a very successful model and we have very close links with it, coming closer to home we can look to the European Parliament. In June 2003, it passed a resolution on the role of women in rural areas. This was a very detailed resolution and I have supplied a copy of the summary in the report submitted to the committee. It called on member states to implement policies to support women farmers. It looked for social insurance rights for farm spouses, which as Ms McGreal outlined still represent a problem here. It looked for representation of women at decision making levels and critical to what we are discussing today, it called for a unit to be set up in the European Commission's Agriculture Directorate-General on women in agriculture to address gender mainstreaming when it comes to policy and legislation.

To come right back to home, to sunny Ireland, there is an opportunity for us to lead the way in Europe, especially in light of the fact that we currently hold the European Presidency. We could take a very strong step in doing something similar to what was called for at European level and establish a unit for women in agriculture. The 600 delegates at the recent conference we mentioned definitely called strongly for this. We need a lead Department for focus. Half of the problem around these issues is that no one in particular is dealing with them so they tend to fall between many different stools.

I will now speak about the model we propose. The unit would form a key link between the Department of Agriculture and Food and women in agriculture. The Irish unit does not necessarily have to reside in the Department of Agriculture and Food as long as there is a lead Department, which ultimately is the key. Our idea behind it would be that it would meet the relevant bodies — IFA, Macra and ICA — two to three times a year. It should produce guidelines on how to deal with women as clients and liaise with the gender equality unit of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform on gender proofing and rural policies. Crucially this unit could propose women to serve on State boards to help in achieving the 40% target. If we are looking for women to nominate to boards, there are loads of women out there and the unit could set up a database. The unit could generally empower women to become more involved in agriculture.

While we have spoken for longer than we thought we would, this is very important issue for us. We acknowledge and welcome the positive steps that have been taken. However, there is still a gap for women in agriculture. Every day I talk to women in agriculture around Ireland who feel very strongly about this gap. We need a lead Department. There are 19 different Departments and agencies looking after the advisory committee report, which has made progress difficult.

We request that the Government establish a temporary women in agriculture unit. This executive unit would lead forward the development of strategies and policies to encourage women to become more actively involved in agriculture. With the committee's endorsement we could envisage some action taking place on this leading to real change. Given that we hold the European Presidency and with all the changes in Irish agriculture at the moment, including the Fischler reforms, it is very timely to take stock and make sure we are harnessing the intelligence of women in agriculture.

I thank members of the committee for listening to us and hearing us. It takes time to change cultures and attitudes, as we all know. The longest journey starts with the tiniest step. If the tiniest step could be taken today, we would be more than happy.

Chairman

I thank the ladies for their presentation. I thank the Opposition spokespersons who have facilitated Deputy Wilkinson who must go to the Chamber shortly.

Deputy Wilkinson

I thank the Chairman and my colleagues for helping me out. I welcome Ms McGreal and Ms Carroll. It is good to see them here. I am a tremendous admirer and very respectful of women in agriculture. As most men of my age, I tend to think back to a time when women played a major part in agriculture and I am talking about physical hard work. When I think of the times and the women involved then, I think it would have been great if they had people like Ms McGreal and Ms Carroll to represent them. However that was not the case. While they had equality then — equality of hard work — after that there was very little.

I agree with what the witnesses said and what they are aiming for. However, the farming organisations should play a greater role in this. While I do not know how many women the farming organisations nominate for boards or other bodies, they know what is happening on the ground. The time has come to have one farming body representing farmers. While the witnesses spoke about the lack of women in farming, many young men are also leaving farming and it is changing dramatically. I agree that the role of women should be recognised more. I agree with what the IFA is doing. The farming organisations should come together and nominate more women for the positions and do more to recognise the role of women in farming. I compliment the witnesses on their presentation and I wish them well. They have my support.

Deputy Upton

I welcome Ms McGreal and Ms Carroll and thank them for the very professional presentation. It is very useful to also get the supporting handout to allow us to look through it again. The main thrust of their presentation is the request for a dedicated unit for women in farming within the Department of Agriculture and Food. While they have acknowledged the existence of the equality unit of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, because it is so diffuse in terms of getting the farming end of things together, they believe their proposal is more appropriate. I support them in this and believe it is important to have a dedicated unit within the Department of Agriculture and Food. As the issues are unique to farming, by spreading them across so many Departments it is very difficult to co-ordinate them in an effective way.

Based on the statistics, there appears to be a major gap between what is needed by farming women and the facts and figures. I am thinking of child care needs, maternity benefits and farm women as carers. Women seem to take on not just the farming role as identified today, but also other roles as house-minder, wife, mother and often carer. I would like to see more details on their needs and how they could be met particularly for those who have caring responsibilities. Even rural transport may affect women in a way that might be different for male farmers.

Women are very poorly represented on State boards under the auspices of the Department of Agriculture and Food, which is joint bottom of the list based on what was presented to us. This morning in the Dáil Chamber, we debated the An Bord Bia Bill, although we ran out of time and did not reach the amendment concerning the appointment of women to that new board. I will be pressing the Minister to ensure the 40% as recommended by Government is achieved on that board as it is one that represents an opportunity. On a number of occasions I have tabled parliamentary questions about the representation of women on boards under the auspices of the Department of Agriculture and Food. The answers from the Minister have always indicated that the representative bodies including the IFA are not coming forward with nominations. I ask members of the delegation to consider the matter and to outline any other views they may have in that regard. A positive initiative is needed to ensure a gender balance is achieved. If such an initiative is not put in place, women will continue to be under-represented on the boards where decisions are taken.

I am interested in the small percentage of women who have access to herd numbers, either jointly or in their own names. There is a need for education and information to promote such activities. It is important that women should be equal partners in the partnership arrangement on the farm. If an equal partnership arrangement is not in place, a woman can be disadvantaged in the event of something happening to the male farmer who normally runs the farm. Perhaps an education gap needs to be plugged in some way. The delegation may wish to comment on the matter.

I would like the witnesses to comment on the problems, if any, experienced by women on IFA committees. How can changes be made in that area? Can the number of female representatives on IFA committees be increased? Such a move would allow women to come forward as nominees, to some extent. I do not think it is just a matter for the individual farming organisations. The Government's commitment to ensuring that at least 40% of people on State boards are women has to be met. We have to examine the positive ways in which that can be achieved.

Deputy Timmins

I thank the witnesses for coming to this meeting.

The work of women, for example in the home or on farms, is undervalued by society. When we discuss this matter, we articulate our views and patronise, for want of a better word, but in many cases we do not mean what we say — let us call a spade a spade. My wife, who used to teach, stays at home because she has five children. Politicians often lament the fact that we are going day and night, but I have to stay at home for the day on rare occasions. I am glad to get up the next day because the work done by spouses who stay at home is far more difficult than that in most professions. It certainly goes unrewarded in terms of monetary recognition, although the job satisfaction probably makes up for that.

Ms Carroll spoke about overcoming the mindset that has developed over decades or centuries of women in agriculture. I am aware that when women go to the mart they are scoffed at by people who laugh down their collars. There is an onus on us to address such a sexist and macho mindset. Most farmers do not take women in agriculture seriously. It is easier for a woman who is accompanied by a spouse, partner, brother or sister to weather the storm, but females who operate farms on their own are not taken seriously when they enter a male-dominated agricultural environment. I am sure Ms Carroll and Ms McGreal encounter this issue regularly. There is an onus on them, as there is on all of us, to seek genuinely to address the problem so the presence of women in agriculture is not seen as tokenism.

I have asked questions about the role of women in An Agreed Programme for Government, but I do not think it has been raised as a Priority Question. As politicians, we will have to examine how we can assist in this process. I intensely dislike the way many women are treated by people in the agricultural community — I do not refer to those outside the industry. Some male farmers think they will get an easy bargain from female farmers and that they will be able to pull the wool over their eyes. Lone women can be vulnerable on the farm, as they may be unable to do a lot of the physical work, for example. I am very conscious of that.

I noted in the document provided by the delegation relating to the numbers of women employed in agriculture across Europe that the highest proportions of women employed in agriculture are in poorer regions, generally speaking, such as parts of Spain and Italy, such as Sicily. That is a cause for concern. The delegation raised some specific issues. It seemed to hone in on the Australian model, which we should examine and try to encourage. We will certainly look at the issue of PRSI. The witnesses lamented the fact that just 10% of herds are registered in female names, but I estimate that it is a false figure. While 10% of those registered as herd owners on paper are women, the correct figure in practice may be lower. Herd numbers may be registered in a farmer's wife's name for certain advantageous administrative purposes. It is another example of tokenism.

Ms Carroll mentioned the number of women working full-time in the farming sector declined between 1991 and 2000. Mr. Cunningham's report on changes in the formation of family units stated that approximately one fifth of family farms will pass into the hands of the farmer's daughter. Such a development would be welcome because agriculture, as a profession, should not be dominated by males. If the figure cited by Mr. Cunningham is true in any way, we have to seek to put in place a level playing pitch on which women can easily operate. That would be necessary even if 1% of family farms were being passed on to women. If farm practices need to be made more user-friendly or more female-friendly, we should ensure that is done. I intend to assess how Fine Gael can advance that.

I thank the members of the delegation for giving the committee a detailed document. There is always a temptation for us to be patronising rather than to do something real. Deputy Upton mentioned the nominated boards. The Minister always says the boards come up with the male members, as opposed to the female members. I am sure there is a role for the IFA's equality officer in that regard. I am sure she is pushing out the message among the nominated bodies. Women should be appointed to such boards not as tokenism, but based on ability etc. We will do anything we can to try to assist. I find nothing more difficult than the abuse of a vulnerable female, whether it takes place in the agriculture sector or elsewhere. It can happen a little easier in agriculture. Some of the farm organisations might not agree with me — they might jump up and have a go at me in that regard — but I am referring to what I have seen happening on occasion.

I thank the delegation. The joint committee will be happy to provide any assistance it can as part of the process of trying to improve the lot of women in agriculture. I am not sure of all the details of a case I came across yesterday, when a woman contacted me about REPS, so I do not want the delegation to take it as verbatim. Perhaps the equality officer will know something about the case. A REPS application had been made, but I do not think a lease was in place for the land in question. Perhaps the lease had to be submitted for the land to be included in REPS. Virtually every relationship worked out okay, but it did not work out between the owner of the land and the daughter-in-law. It may have worked out between the son, the daughter, the son-in-law, the nephew and the niece, but the daughter-in-law was excluded. I did not get to check it out. I heard about it from a constituent. I will have to check it out to see if it is accurate because it would not be desirable.

Deputy Ferris

I welcome Mary McGreal and Mary Carroll and I thank them for their fantastic and enlightening presentation. The final part of the presentation states that "it takes time to change cultures and attitudes" and that "the longest journey starts with the tiniest step." The will to drive forward must exist if we are to change cultures and attitudes. If one examines the male-dominated society in which we have lived and, to some degree, continue to live, one will see that the entire apparatus of the State, or the composition of society, has been geared towards the domination of women by men. This is evident across the board.

Deputy Upton referred to the board of Bord Bia. She has tabled an amendment calling on the Government to ensure that 40% of those on the board are women. I do not believe the amendment will be accepted in the House, which indicates the level of resistance to change. Change, equality and human rights for women must be driven by Government, the political parties, big business, the agricultural and farm leadership and the church. This drive has not been forthcoming to the required degree.

I grew up in a small farm in the late 1950s and 1960s and left farming in the early 1970s. At that time, women did 50% of the work on farms. Listening to the contributions, I recalled the various farm units on the peninsula on which I lived and the enormous, unrecognised role women played on them. They did most of the chores and much of the farm work, which was labour intensive at that time. Their day began before that of the men and finished late at night.

The treatment of women by society's institutions, from the church through to Government, has been nothing short of disgraceful. While progress has been made, it leaves a lot to be desired. I hope the witnesses, with their background in agricultural communities, share my position that this process of change must be must be driven by the leadership of the ICMSA, IFA, ICSA, Macra na Feirme, the ICA and other organisations.

Nevertheless, while the process must be leadership driven, it must start in the home and extend through local agricultural sector branches. A branch of a farming organisation may have 30 members, of which 28 are men. Why are the partners of these men not members and why are they not encouraged to join? We must work at that level with direction being given by the leadership of the farming organisations and other institutions. We must move speedily towards generating and implementing an ethos of equality.

One can have wonderful ideas on paper but they will not address inequalities and the denial of women's rights if they are not driven forward in practice. All the political parties espouse the case made by the delegation but the problem is implementing it. In the agricultural sector, the farming bodies must give a lead, while at a political level, the political parties must lead by example. This is a major task. If one does not have a strong female membership, one is left wide open to the charge of tokenism, as Deputy Timmins pointed out. There is no difference in ability, whether intellectual or otherwise, between males and females. The question is one of ensuring women become more involved.

Ms Carroll stated the willingness of the Department to establish a women's unit would reflect its sincerity or otherwise as regards the role of women farmers. We should campaign on and lobby for this objective.

It is worrying that women made up 40% of those involved in the agricultural sector ten years ago and just 25% now. This probably reflects the economic circumstances of most families in the farming community where women are forced to find alternative employment to sustain the farm. The farming constituency is under attack by a sector that is trying to move towards mass intensification, which will leave behind the small and medium-sized family farm currently being slowly wiped from the face of the island. Women have a major role to play in addressing this issue. Coming from the west, Ms McGreal will know exactly what I am talking about. The fabric of society has been lost, not by accident but by design. We must try to address the reasons for this and fight back as communities by turning it into a major issue.

Politicians of all political parties and the farming organisations must proactively push equality for women at all levels. I thank the delegation and wish its members well. They should not hesitate to ask for my support on any matter connected to this subject.

Deputy Ó Fearghaíl

I welcome the witnesses and thank them for their presentation, particularly for submitting it a few days in advance of the meeting to allow members to consider the issues it raises. We are happy to join the delegation in valuing the work women have done on farms and in rural areas through the generations.

The issues raised appear to fall into two categories, namely, the day-to-day experience of women in agriculture as regards their dealings with the Department and the State, and the role of women in agripolitics. Will the witnesses elaborate on the latter issue? As public representatives, at meetings in our constituencies we see that women are at the heart of community life, working in all kinds of voluntary community organisations in rural and urban areas. Have farming women diverted their energies into organisations such as the ICA, rather than becoming involved in hard core agripolitics through the ICMSA and the IFA? What is the extent of women's participation in these organisations?

Notwithstanding Deputy Ferris's comments on the importance of leadership, a degree of organic growth and osmosis is also required. People need to get involved at local and community level in branch organisations and so forth. Will the witnesses comment on that observation?

As regards the day-to-day routine of a female farmer, I find the statement that the Government must recognise women as farmers somewhat surprising because I do not believe the Government's approach to farmers categorises them as male or female, nor would I find such an approach helpful. Do women working on farms confront practical obstacles as women, which the Department needs to address as a matter of urgency?

I am conscious of the statistics presented to us. Alternative farm enterprises will be a key sector in future and women are the driving force behind growth in this area. For example, female farmers are much more likely than men to participate or take a lead from courses on innovation, finding alternative sources of income and so forth. We must also recognise that the role of women in farming has increased as more of them earn off-farm income or take responsibility for the farm to allow their partners or husbands to go off farm to earn income. Will the witnesses elaborate on these points?

We all bring our personal experience to the table in a debate of this nature and I was fascinated by Deputy Timmins's experience of women in agriculture. I have lived all my life on a farm. My father was a cattle dealer and as a child I travelled the country with him in a truck selling calves. In my experience it could have been either the farmer or his wife who came out to do the deal. Invariably there had to be agreement between the two of them before the deal would be clinched. It was often the woman who held the purse strings and made the final decision. In my community when I was growing up there were many single and widowed farmers who were very respected in the local community. They were highly regarded and looked up to and people often went to them for advice. Perhaps the farmers of County Kildare were more enlightened than farmers in County Wicklow. Women were always held in high regard in County Kildare.

My final point concerns the issue of PRSI. It is clear that in looking at the issue of insurance, the advice of the Department was to form partnerships. The reality is that this is what exists on most farms. Where is the difficulty in taking the Department's advice and formalising the partnership arrangement and getting the benefit from it?

Deputy Harkin

I welcome the two Marys and congratulate them on an excellent presentation. The information was presented in a professional and, at times, entertaining manner.

I agree that many good things have happened but it seems we are missing some kind of strategic movement. Reference was made to the 19 different agencies dealing with the recommendations on women in agriculture. I can understand why the suggestion was made that we need a women in agriculture unit, perhaps in the Department of Agriculture and Food. Given what was said about the document recently produced by that Department on gender proofing one would wonder if it is the right Department. On the other hand, perhaps it is the appropriate Department because a great deal of work obviously needs to be done on the issue of gender proofing.

One of the things politicians think of when they hear about another unit is that it is another layer of bureaucracy. I was interested in the speech Ms McGreal gave at the Croke Park conference where she made the point that measure No. 3 of the rural development fund provides funding to finance, research and support specific assignments focused on important policy questions such as gender and social inclusion issues in rural areas in order to provide information and advice to policy makers. She went on to say that by the end of 2002, only 9% of the funding allocated to the south and east and only 3% of that allocated to the BMW region had been spent. She made the suggestion, which I think is an excellent one, that perhaps that kind of funding could be used to set up this unit. Are more up-to-date figures available? Has more money been spent and, if so, how has it been spent and so on?

Ms McGreal went on to talk about issues in regard to bridging the gap, on which I will not comment except to refer to PRSI for assisting spouses. That is part of a much wider debate on women's work being invisible and undervalued, etc. She made the point that the setting up of partnerships has not resolved that issue. What are the difficulties and issues in this regard? Perhaps there is insufficient information as well as a lack of incentives for people to do it. It may be perceived that there is too much difficulty in regard to accessing various schemes and so on. Perhaps the unit could become involved in this issue. The same is true in regard to herd numbers. What are the obstacles that need to be overcome in this regard?

We are all consumers but women do most of the shopping. If women are also producers that provides an important link that should be exploited. A comment was made by somebody about the involvement of women in the area of organic production. The value of their role as consumers and producers is important.

I fully agree with what was said about the collection of statistics. Unless we have hard information then all we have is hearsay. In order to make sound policy decisions we need to have the statistics to back them up.

Ms McGreal

I will start with a question from Deputy Harkin in regard to the unit. We feel it is very important that this unit is set up because at least then women would have a definite place to go with a problem, be it in regard to herd numbers or other matters. The Department has not really taken the issue seriously. A similar problem arose in regard to children. No one Department had responsibility for them but ultimately responsibility was given to the Department of Health and Children. The same may be true of our situation. The definitive place for our unit may not be in the Department of Agriculture and Food but it should be in a lead Department. Women need that link in order for the issues on the ground to be addressed. I am not talking about putting 15 people into this unit, it could comprise one person. At present people are being sent from one Department to another and they are not getting satisfactory answers.

The available funding is dependent on the Department in which the unit would be set up. Women have been closely involved in farming and, in many cases, it is women who are behind alternative farm enterprises. Men are often involved in off-farm employment because otherwise child care can be an issue for families with young children if mothers go out to work. However, if mothers stay at home on the farm it is sometimes expected that they can do farm work in addition to looking after children. The contribution of women on farms is often undervalued whether they are partners in farming or wives with no formal connection to the business. Women often do double jobs in addition to the rest of the bureaucracy relevant to the farming enterprise.

Ms Carroll

I thank members for their positive reaction to the presentation. This topic produces diverse reactions and is probably not debated often enough. I welcome the positive comments about the need for the recognition of the role of women.

A point was made about what farming organisations are doing. However, this issue is bigger than any one farming organisation or political party. It is about women in agriculture and we all need to work together.

Putting on my IFA hat, we would not be here if it were not for what the IFA is doing with the equality project. I have worked with the project for two years. It is a huge project the aim of which is to change the culture of an organisation representing farming that is dominated by men. Having said that, the IFA is being proactive. It is working with women in agriculture to make changes.

In her presentation, Ms McGreal referred to the nomination of women to State boards. It is not as straightforward as I would like it to be. I have a list of excellent women who could act as board members. Unfortunately, the nature of all these organisations is that somebody is not just put in over somebody else. Committee members will know how it works as they are members of political parties. The positions held in the IFA at the moment are largely held by men but we are working to change that. We accept that this will take time. We need to have a bottom-up approach as well as a top-down approach. Why can we not all work together? The Government also has a role to play. We all have a role to play, both the IFA and women in agriculture. Women have the power to demand change. I do not want the situation to arise where we go away once more without any concrete results. Deputy Timmins referred to tokenism which happens a great deal. We are sent away and then have to come back again. We need to sit down and ask what can be done. We are presenting a practical solution that the Government can adopt. The IFA is conducting its equality project and it and the Government could meet somewhere in the middle and effect change for women in agriculture. It is not about them or us but about the two of us working together. This in itself is equality.

I believe we have addressed some of the points raised. The point on statistics is very important. We must welcome a report that was published as recently as last year by the gender equality unit in the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform on gaps in statistics on women in agriculture. The unit has recognised the gaps that exist. For instance, the census form forced one to state that there was only one farmer in the house. Therefore, the woman can never say she is a farmer if her husband is a farmer. This is a basic issue and at least it is now being changed. We need more action on the statistics issue but we welcome the action that is being taken.

The PRSI and partnership issue sounds so simple, just as do many things in life. It is not simply a question of forming a partnership to get one's PRSI. It does not happen on the ground. The figure pertaining to partnerships in Ireland is only 3%. In Australia, there are many partnerships. Australia has a totally different model for cultural reasons. Husband and wife pioneers formed and ran their farms together. In Ireland, we have partnerships in which the woman is actively involved but this is not stated on paper and therefore she cannot access her PRSI payments. From having consulted women around the country, I believe this is because there is a general fear associated with partnership. I hear many stories on this and I am in an ideal position because every day I take a telephone call from a woman on this issue. One of the practical issues that has arisen concerns partnerships, and women feel that if they join one there will be legal ramifications and problems with schemes run by the Department of Agriculture and Food. Many women are not the owners of the land and have to ask their husbands if they can set up the partnership but they are often told it would involve too much bother. We need to be proactive in stating partnerships are important. There should be some incentive for setting one up, even if it is a code of practice on partnerships between husbands and wives.

At least once per week I deal with a case concerning women and their herd numbers. They feel their herd numbers are being taken away because they are women. One cannot go out and say this, and I am not doing so, but this is the feeling on the ground. Of course the Department is rightly making a move to make sure there are not willy-nilly herd numbers used to maximise payments. We approve of this move. However, sometimes women feel they are getting a raw deal in this regard.

While one can have two names on a herd number, there can only be one person named as the actual keeper of the flock or person in charge of that flock. Typically, the cheque will be received by that person and the woman, although she may have her name associated with the herd number, will not have her name listed on the payment cheque. This also needs to be looked at and we have done so with the Department. I know there are associated issues and we are not saying it is a simple matter of making a quick change, but the unit we have called for could deal with those issues. If I have a problem with my beef premium, I know who to approach in the Department. However, if have a problem with the aforementioned issues I do not know who to approach and I end up phoning half the Department offices around the country. One can get different answers from different sections and therefore one central section would make the process much more streamlined and easy.

As one Deputy stated, there are women in agripolitics but the numbers are low. If one considers politics generally one will note that female participation is low. Only 13% of Deputies are women. The problem is not just in agriculture but unfortunately it is worse in agriculture because of the culture of male domination. It is very hard for women to make their way up. The IFA is identifying the barriers and is working actively to try to get women more involved but it is not straightforward and will take time to change. This work must be leadership driven.

If the Government were to do something really proactive for women in agriculture, this in itself would send out a great message to women. It would give them more confidence and let them know they are farmers and recognised as such by the Department. Women would have a much greater spring in their step at an IFA meeting if they felt that was the case. At present, many women feel their role is not recognised and therefore they do not get involved in agricultural politics.

There are still issues for women in agriculture. Their position is not what it was ten years ago. The male-dominated culture in agriculture is still significant. I live on a farm and know what it is like. Even for women to get access to land is still very difficult because there is still an attitude such that women are asked to leave it to the boys. If a woman seeks to buy land, it can sometimes be much more difficult than it is for a man just because of the culture that exists. Farming requires access to land. If one does not have this, one cannot farm. This is also a very important point that needs to be considered.

I thank the committee for listening. I feel strongly that we have a key opportunity for the farming organisations and the Government to work together and make real progress rather than having one accusing the other of not nominating to boards, etc. Let the two of us work together to make real change.

Senator Coonan

I apologise for coming late to the meeting. I was looking forward to the presentation and I am sorry I missed it. However, I look forward to studying the written submission, which I will take on board, and perhaps I will take up some of the issues raised with the delegates later. I have said before publicly that the treatment of women in agriculture is something akin to the apartheid regime that obtained in South Africa. It is refreshing to hear the delegates today and I congratulate Ms Carroll on highlighting the issues that concern women in farming. It is high time they were addressed. I wish her well with her campaign and I agree with most of the points she raised.

It is also refreshing to have an IFA sub-committee say before this committee that all is not well with the Minister for Agriculture and Food and the Government because previously Ms Carroll's general secretary was before this committee and complimented the Government and said everything was fine with farming and that the Opposition was really to blame. I will not go back over the major issues because I should have been here earlier but it must be stated that there are many problems with the PRSI issue in my constituency. The circumstances that obtain are shameful. Ms Carroll has given us not only food for thought but also a mandate for immediate and urgent action in some of the areas alluded to. We should be highlighting this.

I dealt with a case in which a lady who, like her husband, has her own farm wanted to get a pension but was not entitled to one because she and her husband were not making separate returns. This is an absolute disgrace. The same can be said about the premium payments. If a spouse is unfortunate enough to lose her husband, she is not allowed to receive the premium payments until administration is taken into account — we know how vital these payments are to the success or continuation of a farm nowadays. This is also a shame.

Again, I congratulate Ms Carroll on highlighting these issues before the committee. It is the start of what should be a more focused campaign to ensure that women receive what are their due rights. There is nothing special about these rights and they should be afforded to them.

Deputy Upton

I believe Ms Carroll is saying that she is not seeking a huge unit in any Department. She has indicated the need for what I would regard as a co-ordinator who might co-ordinate all this information and bring it together in one place. When one talks about a unit, the impression is given that one is referring to a suite of offices with a bevy of secretaries. Are the delegates talking about one or two people who would manage the information, make it readily available and promote the issues that are important to women in agriculture?

Ms McGreal

Yes.

Deputy Upton

It is great to see two women present today. We have had various farming organisations before the committee at different stages and I do not believe a woman from any of those organisations or a sub-committee thereof has ever made a presentation to us. The only body that might have had one or two women among its representatives is the farm retirement group, but the representatives of all the organisations have generally been male. That there are women making a presentation today is very much a step in the right direction and I very much welcome it.

Ms McGreal

I thank Deputy Upton for her remarks. We are privileged to be here and we thank the committee for inviting us and listening to us. It is important that women make the case for women. If they do not, who will do so? Most people can remember their grandparents and some their great-grandparents. They recognise their worth and that of their own mothers and that agriculture might not have been so successful but for the work women put into it over the years. It is only right that the role of women should be recognised, even at this late stage. We are calling for a unit with only one or two people so that there will be a definite place from which to obtain information rather than having to go from one Department to another or from Davitt House to Portlaoise. Women have been slow to get involved in the structures of agriculture because of barriers they perceive and because they, as women, do not know where to access information and believe a man has a better chance because he will talk to others and get a better hearing. This presentation is therefore important for women. I sincerely thank the members of the committee for their attention and for the way they have received us.

Ms Carroll

I join Ms McGreal in thanking the committee. This is not about separating men and women in agriculture, with which I totally disagree. This is something on which the IFA holds strong views. We do not want women on one committee. The whole idea of the IFA equality project is to get women onto all committees. We want women on the dairy committee, the beef committee and the sheep committee. It is not a case of isolating women in one group. Unfortunately we still need some sort of unit, some sort of focus, even on a temporary basis, from which we can start to move forward on those issues. There is a long journey ahead and we will need help to make it.

I welcome the work done by the Government. This issue is bigger than a Government party or one farm organisation. It is very much about working together for women in agriculture in Ireland. Much positive work has been done. However, we have a timely opportunity, given all the changes that are taking place in agriculture, to lead the way in Europe. Why should Ireland not be a serious model to which other countries will look in their efforts to get women actively involved in farming? Such a unit can be temporary. It is not a case of them and us or of women versus men but of partnership in the family farm. I thank the committee.

Chairman

Thank you for the presentation. We will correspond with the Minister and propose the setting up of a women in agriculture unit. We will also discuss the presentation with the Minister and his officials at a later date. I pay tribute to the IFA and support what my colleagues have said. It is not just today or yesterday that women have played an important role in agriculture. At an early age I was aware that, whether one was a boy or a girl, one had to help in tending turnips, turning the hay and so on and that the role women played over the years was second to none. It is being brought to the fore only now by people like you and other groups. I thank both ladies for coming here today and contributing to a very informative discussion.

There are one or two other matters before we conclude the meeting. Deputy Wilkinson is in the process of preparing a report on the farm retirement scheme which is due to be furnished by May 2004. I understand the report is being compiled at present but some responses are outstanding and are expected shortly. Deputy Wilkinson has asked for an additional four weeks to complete the report. Will members agree to extend the period for the completion of the report to 1 June 2004?

Deputy Timmins

I would be quite happy to agree that. Perhaps Deputy Wilkinson could find out the number of retired farmers who leased land to non-family members and are outside the remit of the single farm payment. I do not know whether it is possible to get that information but perhaps the Deputy would seek it.

Deputy Wilkinson

I will try but a number of organisations and people to whom we have written requesting their comments have not come back to us. We have much work done on the report. We will write to them again and it is hoped they will reply. I welcome the extra time.

Chairman

Is that agreed? Agreed.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 5 May 2004.