JOINT COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE AND FOOD debate -
Wednesday, 30 Jun 2004

Safefood — The Food Promotion Board: Presentation.

Vice-Chairman (Mr. M. Moynihan)

The minutes of the previous meeting have been circulated. Are they agreed? Agreed.

We have a presentation by Safefood — the Food Safety Promotion Board. I welcome Mr. Bertie Kerr, chairman, Mr. Martin Higgins, chief executive, Mr. Thomas Quigley, scientific and technical director and Mr. Ray Dolan, director of planning and resources. As part of our work programme we have decided to invite one of the North-South institutions to make a presentation and it is in that context the invitation was extended to Safefood. While the body comes under the remit of the Department of Health and Children, it also transgresses into the area of food, which is within the remit of the Department of Agriculture and Food. I understand those Departments hold regular meetings.

Before asking Mr. Higgins to make his opening remarks, I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that while members of this committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or any official by name in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. Martin Higgins

I thank the committee for the invitation. We are delighted the committee is showing such an interest in food safety, which I understand is one of the committee's priorities for this year. The Food Safety Promotion Board, or Safefood, as it is known, has been in operation since December 1999. It was a start-up operation in that no staff were transferred to it from other organisations. The early part of our development was characterised by a number of political difficulties in Northern Ireland which delayed our corporate development and the recruitment of staff. We now have a staff of 30, the majority of whom are located at our headquarters in Cork. We also have some staff in our Dublin office.

I shall indicate our role because there is often confusion between what we and, for example, the Food Safety Authority of Ireland do. I know the Food Safety Authority of Ireland made a presentation to the committee recently. Its remit is the development of standards and enforcement of legislation. As a North-South body we have no such enforcement role. Our role is to promote food safety right along the food chain. In recent years we have concentrated on the consumer area but we are examining what might be an appropriate interface between ourselves and the food industry.

We are largely involved in the promotion of food safety. The most visible part of that is advertising on television, radio and posters around a number of key themes of hygiene. We have done some work in the area of nutrition. Perhaps the less visible part of our work, and the bulk of what we do, is in the promotion of scientific co-operation. We have a remit in research and food safety and in the development of laboratory services on an all-island basis. These are described in the briefing document which has been circulated to members.

I shall indicate the issues that currently exercise consumers in regard to food safety. Twice per year we conduct market research to see that our messages are getting through and how they are being received. We are currently in the field, but in our last survey, carried out earlier in the year, 70% of respondents described themselves as being concerned and 26% as very concerned about food safety. The emphasis is slightly different North and South. Some 75% of people in the South expressed concern about food safety, while the figure for Northern Ireland was 61%.

In terms of how it fits in the public mind, when the survey was carried out at the end of January there was approximately the same level of concern about this issue as there was about waste management. They were the two issues coming up around the same time. Of those who expressed concerns, 66% were concerned about pesticides. Obviously, given its recent profile, obesity is beginning to feature quite considerably, particular among children. Interestingly, though, almost 60% of those who were concerned about obesity in children related their concerns to diet and only 22% said it was because of sedentary behaviour. The evidence would suggest that it is a multi-faceted problem and that exercise and diet are important in tackling obesity.

BSE is still up there among the issues about which people are concerned. About 50% of those surveyed are still concerned about BSE. About half said they are concerned about antibiotics in meat and 40% expressed concern about pesticides. Interestingly, about one third of those people expressed concern about GM foods.

Almost 60% of people are concerned about take-aways. Restaurants, by comparison, are of concern to around 38%, with supermarkets at the same level. An interesting fact is that if people are concerned about a particular take-away they are far more likely to change their purchasing habits than they are in the case of a supermarket. We do not know the reason for this. Perhaps people feel they have no choice but to shop in a supermarket, but the impact of a food safety concern on a restaurant or take-away is far more severe than on a supermarket.

They are just some statistics in which the committee might be interested as they show the concerns of people. I shall hand over to Councillor Kerr to give the committee a flavour of the North-South dimension and working of the body.

Mr. Bertie Kerr

I thank the committee for receiving this deputation. It is probably unique to have an Ulster Unionist councillor meeting an Oireachtas committee and I feel privileged to be in that position.

I was asked to chair the Food Safety Promotion Board cross-Border body by Mr. David Trimble in 1999 and took on the role with enthusiasm. I am very keen to see absolute co-operation between Northern Ireland and the South. It is a pity we did not do this to a greater extent 30 or 40 years ago. I am very keen to get a new government up and running in Northern Ireland. That is why I readily agreed to take on the job of chairman of the advisory committee.

We are an advisory committee in the Food Safety Promotion Board. Mr. Martin Higgins has the executive power to take the decisions and, I am glad to say, thereby takes the responsibility also. That is really my role. We are very well endowed with scientists and well qualified people with impressive CVs in the fields of medicine, science and so on. I am just an ordinary country man. I have been an Ulster Unionist Party councillor in County Fermanagh for many years and I sometimes feel a little inadequate in chairing this board when we are dealing with certain items of a scientific background. However, I may bring a little common sense here and there to proceedings, and I have a perspective on food safety as a farmer. Like many others on the island, I hope to improve our farming industry, exports and so on. Food safety starts on the farm. When I was first appointed I was criticised because of my farming background but it has been an asset to me rather than holding me back in any way.

Unfortunately, politics in Northern Ireland has gone sour and things are not going as well as they should or as I and many of my Ulster Unionist colleagues would like. However, our six cross-Border bodies are still operating. We have been loyal to our staff and there has been no messing about with their jobs or conditions. We are continuing to get on with the job of bringing people closer together and doing things on an all-island basis.

One of the strong arguments for a cross-Border body on food safety was that diseases do not have any borders. We could very well have an outbreak on either side of the Border, and it is very important that both sides co-operate through a body like Safefood, which is acquainted with the issues on either side of the Border. I hope to continue to do all I can to promote cross-Border co-operation and all-island bodies. I make no apologies to anybody for that.

Deputy Timmins

I welcome Mr. Kerr and the staff of Safefood and thank them for their presentation. We received some advance material courtesy of the board and there are a few questions I would like to ask, while acknowledging the work of the board.

I know Mr. Higgins tried to distinguish the role of the board from that of the Food Safety Authority of Ireland, and Safefood is at pains to draw the demarcation line. However, when I look at their respective roles and functions I often think they overlap to a great degree. From a distance, I would like to see an amalgamation of the two, extending the role of the two boards to create a food standards authority also. We have arrived at the first step of food safety, and there has been great awareness of that in recent years, but now we need to push ahead on food standards.

I have a couple of questions, and I appreciate if the witnesses cannot give me answers to them today. They can do so later by correspondence or otherwise. How many staff does Safefood have? Does it have staff promoting food abroad, or is that the remit of Bord Bia? The issue of advertising to children was mentioned, and the submission talks about a "Hands of Doom" school panto pack. I have not come across this before but we are all acutely aware of the difficulties with eating habits, particularly among young children, with the advent of our fast food society, as opposed to fast food. In every facet of life we almost live a kind of microwave lifestyle.

This issue is causing increasing concern. I appreciate that there is more to it than the dietary aspect but that does play a big part because people no longer have the time to cook food like they traditionally did. They go more for processed food, as evidenced by garage forecourts and the increasing share of the market. I would like to hear something about that "Hands of Doom" pack because many children are not aware of the benefits or otherwise of eating food in the traditional manner.

The report we received also mentioned stimulant drinks. Do Safefood classify tea and coffee as stimulant drinks? Perhaps this is a bold question to ask but, in the view of Safefood, is tea and coffee harmful? I suppose anything not in moderation is harmful. We often think of stimulant drinks as alcohol, and I do not know whether the report is referring to tea and coffee.

The submission contains a list of commissioned research projects. I do not know if the projects are finalised but there are a few in which I would be interested. Number 21 on the list relates to food and the primary link to human cancer. I do not know if the results of that report are known. If they are, I would appreciate if Safefood could forward us a copy, or perhaps we can get them on a website. I would welcome any feedback from that report because this would be of concern to many people.

Number 33 is on the advance preparation of meat products in fast food outlets. I know the Food Safety Authority of Ireland and the health boards are fairly stringent in carrying out inspections of various premises but before a premises is closed down it receives several warnings. It is not closed down in day one. I have a concern about fast food outlets because we all know from experience that one can eat food from a fast food outlet and feel pretty ill the following day.

Number 37 is on the standard of healthy living on the island of Ireland. My general perception of the reports we receive is that we lead a very unhealthy lifestyle. How does Safefood see itself overcoming that obstacle? Irish people are no different from others. We all know what is good for us but do not necessarily do it. How can Safefood cross that barrier and impress on people what is going on?

No group leads a more unhealthy lifestyle than the politicians in Leinster House, and I am sure it is no different in the North. By the very nature of the job we lead unhealthy lifestyles.

Deputy Upton

I welcome members of the group, and I will be forgiven for mentioning Dr. Quigley in particular, a former student and colleague of mine in UCD. I am very pleased to see him in this role today.

I seek clarification on a few questions. It was mentioned that Safefood interacts with the Department of Agriculture and Food, but I ask the witnesses to expand on the role of Safefood and precisely on its link with the Department of Agriculture and Food. I note the body's funding comes entirely from the Department of Health and Children in this part of the country. Are any staff based in Northern Ireland? How many are based in the sub-office in Dublin relative to the headquarters in Cork? Why is there a need for a sub-office and a main office in terms of the delivery of Safefood's product?

Regarding a couple of programmes that Safefood has identified in particular, the one that is getting the most media attention and that has captured the minds of the public is the whole problem of obesity, particularly in children. How can that be dealt with in a constructive way? There are lots of opinions on what should be done and, as Mr. Higgins identified, on the relative role of diet versus exercise, the impact of advertising and so on. There is a huge gap in nutritional information. It would be interesting to ask a cross section of 25 people on Grafton Street what it means to them when they read on a label that the product contains 140 kilojoules or 40 kilocalories, as well as being provided with maybe 20 more pieces of information.

In terms of their intake of energy, do people have any concept of what is a reasonable amount of kilocalories or kilojoules, for instance? Many such technical terms are used. I look at a label and see the terms "joules" and "kilocalories", and yet we talk about calories. There is a great deal of confusion around this and somewhere along the way we need to let people know how much energy one needs to burn off if one eats, say, four potatoes and two slices of ham or that if one walks to school one will use up so many calories and can eat an extra bar of chocolate or whatever.

We need a simple and uncomplicated way of giving out this information because many people do not know that eating even one bag of chips might account for half of one's realistic intake of calories for a day. There is a huge information and education gap. What can be done to bridge that gap?

Am I right in thinking the Food Safety Authority of Ireland also has a role and responsibility in providing information on food alerts? I am a regular visitor to its website and I see the food alerts coming up on it. Like Deputy Timmins, I wonder if there is duplication or overlap in some of these roles and if they could be fine-tuned in some way.

On a more technical note, am I correct in saying we still do not have a reference laboratory in this country for food borne pathogens, and does Safefood have any concerns about the impact of that if there were a major outbreak of some sort? The difficulty is we cannot anticipate an outbreak. If we could we would not have the problem in the first place. We invariably depend on the good will of our neighbours across the water to carry out the studies and to provide the information for us.

I note that somebody is at least considering the issue of a reference laboratory, a very important back-up facility which is not provided at present. I appreciate the costs and so on, but with the emergence of E coli 0157 we had moved a little towards having identification procedures and having a reference laboratory for that.

I have another slightly technical question. What role, if any, does Safefood have in laboratory accreditation? My recollection of laboratories from my dealings with them in the past is that they tend to sprout fairly regularly. That may have stopped to some extent but many of these laboratories might not be accredited. Should there be a need to pursue a case based on an outbreak of something or other, what is the significance of the fact that a laboratory is or is not accredited? Are there any legal implications?

The other issue of a technical nature that I wish to raise relates to dioxins. How do we measure dioxins? I seem to recollect that University College Cork got a laboratory specifically for that purpose. What interaction does Safefood have with that kind of facility? When people think about food safety, the emphasis has been on the bacterial aspects and viruses. Again, the witnesses might have an opinion on whether bacteria and viruses should be given more consideration than, say, chemicals in our food.

Finally, to revert to where this organisation started from, its cross-Border importance, viruses and bacteria have very little respect for a border on a map. What can be done to ensure the same standards and conditions apply in terms of food safety on each side of the Border?

Deputy Ferris

I welcome all the witnesses, in particular Mr. Kerr. It is good to see somebody from the other side of our island giving a presentation on an all-Ireland dimension. He is to be commended.

I share the same background as Councillor Kerr in that I come from a farming background and fully understand without any difficulty the issues he has raised, in particular regarding the eradication of disease. Part of the work I did on that last year concerned certain areas of the Border region where disease was widespread, right along the Armagh-Louth-Monaghan region. As the animal does not recognise it, disease was being transmitted.

In saying that, however, I commend Ms Bríd Rogers and her staff in Northern Ireland, as well as our Minister for Agriculture and Food, Deputy Joe Walsh, and his staff on their handling of the foot and mouth outbreak, on what their co-operation achieved and the tremendous work that was done. Unfortunately, however, there is no structure in place now to continue that work. I ask the witnesses for their views on that, particularly on what can be done in regard to disease eradication in those regions.

I note in the document we received today reference to the promotion of cross-Border co-operation and surveillance of food borne diseases. I read only last weekend of an outbreak of foot and mouth disease in Brazil. It is probably the same in the Six Counties as here, where beef is being imported from that part of the world on a regular basis, probably because it is far cheaper. I would like to hear the comments of the delegation on the effects of this and what can be done to protect us with regard to beef imported from areas of the world where there are outbreaks of foot and mouth or other diseases that could prove detrimental to producers and the farming community on the island of Ireland.

I would also like to hear the views of the delegation on GM foods. We are dealing with two jurisdictions in their promotion. I think Mr. Higgins said one third of the people interviewed had expressed concern about the possibility that GM foods would form part of the food chain. How does Safefood suggest this matter should be dealt with? Looking at it solely from an agricultural point of view there is a strong argument against their introduction in the absence of accurate scientific analysis of GM-free zones on both parts of the island. No matter where they are used on the island they are impossible to contain because of cross-contamination, pollution and so on.

I think Mr. Higgins said one of the main issues of concern for those interviewed was that of pesticides, their abuse and lack of control in their use. Given its advisory role which forms part of its remit, how does Safefood suggest this committee can factor this in in the wider political debate?

On obesity and nutrition, it is universally recognised that food is being made available at a cheaper price through fast food outlets and so on that most nutritionists argue is not of the same standard from a safety point of view. Chemicals may also be added to make it more attractive and tasty, particularly for young people. All of the evidence is that we are moving towards a situation where a sizeable percentage of the population will be obese as a result.

I notice that No. 29 on the list of research projects is a cross-Border comparative study of food safety education, food risk perception in post-primary schools and development of a model for implementation of effective curricular change. I agree strongly with this. A massive programme of education needs to be undertaken with an all island dimension. One way of dealing with this growing problem would be to undertake a strong programme on nutrition and diet and the types of food detrimental to our health in the long term. This should be promoted within the education system as part of the curriculum. I compliment Safefood on this.

I thank the members of the delegation for their presentation and wish them well in their endeavours. It is a wonderful sign of co-operation and all dimensions on the island working together for the greater good.

Deputy Carty

I, too, welcome the members of Safefood. As a lot of what I would have liked to ask has been asked by other members, I will not hold up the meeting but I was delighted to hear the delegation talk about cross-Border co-operation, especially in tackling disease. I hope there will be greater co-operation which is important on both sides of the Border. In the South we export 90% of our produce.

I have one question on the fourth commissioned research project listed. It deals with poultry meat and improving food safety by improving chemical residue surveillance. How can this be done given the number of chickens being imported, as well as beef? Has a checking system been put in place?

Deputy Ó Fearghaíl

Like my colleagues, I thank members of the delegation for coming and making the presentation. I congratulate them on the work they are doing and wish them success into the future. In particular, I compliment Safefood on the advertising campaign it has been running on the national airwaves on television and radio on the issue of food safety.

Reference is made in the briefing document to the barbecue season. This is a relatively new phenomenon in Ireland but is an area in which there are many hazards. Are there any statistics for the number of incidents of food poisoning and other difficulties arising from these events? Is Safefood sufficiently aware of the hazards in using a barbecue and the need to use it properly?

It has also been mentioned that Safefood has just completed a review of health board food analysing laboratories. Can the members of the delegation give us a flavour of what they have determined arising from that review? In the two years we have been working on this committee, one of the issues that has come up most frequently is that of imported meats and food products. The committee has a particularly strong view on the need to ensure proper labelling of food and the identification of the country of origin of food products being sold by the catering sector and the hotel industry. Does the delegation have any views on the matter?

We had the opportunity recently to have discussions with the craft food sector which has experienced particular difficulties in recent years in sustaining industries. Many in the sector have gone out of business. However, there is now a new vigour in the sector and a desire to see new opportunities being availed of. What interaction is there between Safefood and sector? How does Safefood see itself being in a position to help the industry?

Mr. Higgins

I will address Deputy Timmins's questions. On the overlap with the Food Safety Authority of Ireland, as we work in a similar field, there are overlaps in the spheres of operation. The way to characterise it is that we are primarily involved in scientific assessment and promotion, not the management of food safety regulatory systems. That is the key issue. We do not know what the future holds. The policy is set out in legislation to which we operate. Unlike Bord Bia, we have no remit in the promotion of food or food products. We are concerned with food safety and nutrition. All our staff are based in the South and the decision was taken to base the body in Cork.

The Deputy asked about the "Hands of Doom" panto pack. For a number of years when my children were in school, the teacher used to look for little scripts for an end of year show. It struck me that one of the difficulties in bringing messages to schools was that if one brought a visiting show to a school, the kids were exposed to the issues for 30 or 40 minutes before moving on to something else. We were of the view that we could gain much more exposure in resourcing and assisting schools to put on shows through rehearsals and so on. The pack is based on the theme of food safety. It is a panto style show which runs for approximately half an hour. We supply schools with a script, sheet music and CD ROMs with backing tracks for the shows, given that smaller schools do not have music teachers. The children rehearse for approximately six weeks and then perform the show which has been remarkably successful. The idea is to inculcate in children the message of food safety. It is interesting that when doing a pilot show in a school in Belfast one of the children playing the lead roles became nervous and needed to use the toilet. Her mother who wanted her on stage quickly told her she did not have time to wash her hands. She gave her mother a withering look, washed her hands, went on stage and performed. Also included in the pack are activities which can be used by other classes.

An issue has arisen as regards the increase in the quantity of food sold in garage forecourts. The challenge is to ensure adequate training for those working in fast food restaurants in operating to company systems regarding food safety and hygiene. We are undertaking a number of initiatives in this regard. For example, we operate a food handlers course certified by the Environmental Health Officers Association for children in transition year as many students work in fast food outlets. Those who participate in the course obtain a food handlers certificate. We are trying to provide education on food handling skills.

The committee was set up at the request of the then Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Dr. Tom Moffatt, following a coroner's report on the death of a young man in Limerick. It was asked to define stimulant drinks, excluding tea and coffee. The market leader at the time was a product called Red Bull. I will ask my colleague to define what is meant by stimulant drinks.

Dr. Thomas Quigley

The stimulant drinks report was produced at the request of the Department of Health and Children. However, it was an all-island study to investigate stimulant drinks which are those marketed as containing high energy sugar but also caffeine. We took a general view in that regard. We investigated stimulants marketed as energy drinks or those which caused a stimulatory effect. The Deputy rightly argues that tea and coffee contain caffeine and are regarded as stimulant drinks. However, the general perception among the population at the time was that drinks such as Red Bull and its equivalent were not high in caffeine. The report indicated a need to bring to the attention of the public the fact that they contained levels of caffeine equivalent to that contained in a mug or two of coffee. We discovered a high level of consumption of such drinks and began an awareness campaign in that regard.

Mr. Higgins

Deputy Timmins sought clarification on a number of scientific projects. With the Chairman's permission, my colleague, Dr. Quigley, will also deal with them. The first question was related to the link between food and human cancer.

Dr. Quigley

This was also an interesting project. Most of the projects were commissioned during the last three years and many take a significant amount of time to complete. While we have found it takes approximately three years to complete such studies, fortunately, that is not the case with this study which investigated the presence of acrylamide in foods. Acrylamide, also found in the environment, is a chemical produced when one cooks starchy foods at a high temperature. It is contained in products such as chips and bread, in particular toast. We are trying to find a simple and rapid method of detecting the levels in foods.

We were informed by our EU contacts, following a food scare in Sweden, that it was an issue on which the public needed information. We commenced the study before the information was released on what had happened in Sweden in order that we could have in place a developed methodology which has since been developed and tried at Queen's University where the study is being carried out. A number of studies have been undertaken in the meantime to determine the level of consumption of acrylamide in food and its potential to cause cancer.

On the preparation of meat products in fast food outlets, members have indicated that food fast food outlets are a potential problem area. Fast food outlets at sports events and so on have already been identified as problem areas. A small but pertinent study of practices in the back of such vans is almost complete. The Environmental Health Service in Northern Ireland asked us to conduct the study because it believed it was an area where the risk was potentially higher than in others. It is indicating good results from the point of view of what needs to be addressed in training programmes for fast food outlets. It is being conducted as part of our research programme.

On the need for healthy living on the island of Ireland, Deputies and Senators should be aware that a strong focus is placed on targeting social need. As one Deputy indicated, the information available in the nutrition sphere was lacking. Therefore, we needed to identify consumption patterns and the types of food being consumed by lower income groups. The study is trying to gather the information Deputy Upton suggested was lacking. It focuses, in particular, on low income groups on an all-island basis.

Members referred to the study of poultry meat and chemical residues in foods. There have been many media news items in recent years regarding infringements of regulations by the poultry industry. We needed to know what was happening at production level to identify and ascertain what chemicals were being used to stimulate production of meat in the sector. Chickens intensively reared often suffer from a disease called coccidiosis. A protozoan grows in the chicken's gut and uses its energy in order that it is not converted to meat. Poultry farmers tend to use chemicals to do this. We need to put in place a surveillance programme to monitor the amount of residue that might potentially be present in poultry meat as the study indicates chemical residues are being used. Part of the study involves the provision of a training programme for the industry on the use of alternative methods to dosing with particular coccidiostats. The study seeks to develop proper practice in the sector.

Deputy Carty

What can be done about imports?

Dr. Quigley

The study is determining the levels of residues in poultry meat for sale in Ireland. It does not deal exclusively with Irish produced poultry meat. The training programme is targeted at the industry, North and South.

Mr. Higgins

Deputy Upton asked about the level of interaction with the Department of Agriculture and Food within which there is a food safety liaison unit with which we interact on a regular basis. We will be meeting officials from the unit on Friday to consider issues of common interest. A particular area in which we co-operate is research, to which we try to take a complementary approach. In that regard, we liaise with the Department on a regular basis to consider projects coming on stream to avoid duplication.

The food agency consultative committee set up under the aegis of the Department of Agriculture and Food comprises all agencies involved, to some extent, in the food business, including Bord Bia, BIM and the Food Safety Authority of Ireland. Safefood is also represented on the committee. In terms of reporting, I am answerable to the North-South Ministerial Council which meets in sectoral format. Given current difficulties, the Council no longer meets. The sponsoring Departments for Safefood are the health Departments, North and South, from which we derive our budget.

As regards the splitting of staff between Cork and Dublin, the majority, 23, are permanently located in Cork. We also have a number of student placements and staff working on short-term projects. Some seven members of staff are based in Dublin, working primarily in the marketing and communications sector. This deployment arose from a business case related to marketing and communications, in particular. Dublin, essentially, is the communications hub for the whole island. Ulster Television's marketing department is based in Dublin, not Belfast. It was, therefore, deemed appropriate for Safefood to have a Dublin office for marketing and communications purposes and also to provide a convenient meeting place for the board, scientific committee and a number of cross-Border expert committees dealing with particular issues. While an adequate air service between Belfast and Cork and Dublin and Cork makes travelling convenient, it is difficult to travel between other parts of the country. This was particularly important, given that those involved gave freely of their time. It was, therefore, agreed that Dublin would be a more convenient meeting place.

The issue of obesity in children is topical. Some time ago we published a study on behalf of the Irish Universities Nutritional Alliance which dealt with nutrition on an all-island basis. It illustrated that diet composition had not changed significantly in the last 20 years, although the level of obesity had increased considerably. It had increased by a factor of two in the case of adult males. The message is that we are eating more food and that the amount of exercise being taken is relatively low. The study showed that an adult watched television for an average of 19 hours per week and took only two hours of vigorous exercise. We need to adopt a multi-faceted approach to the issue which the task force on obesity is addressing in conjunction with a multiplicity of agencies. Dr. Quigley is our representative on the committee which is due to report in October. We look forward to hearing about what it has been doing.

I agree with members' remarks on nutritional information. People do not know which fats are good and which are bad. There is confusion about low fat products. Full fat milk contains a small proportion of fat. However, we are working against marketing strategies where words such as "light", "low fat" and "fat free" cause confusion. Safefood conducts a food and nutrition forum which seeks to work with all of the agencies involved in getting out the message which we all agree should be simple: one should eat more fruit and vegetables and not get hung up on the number of grams a product contains.

At an educational level we could focus more on the food pyramid which shows in graphic form the relative amounts of different food one should eat. There is a good level of understanding of the system at school level. People recognise a healthy diet is important. Often they know what they should be doing but doing it in practice is difficult. One must first get out the information and seek to change attitudes. However, changing behaviour is the most difficult of all. For a lay person, nutritional information contained on food packaging is not the most helpful. This is an issue with which we need to deal. A report on food labelling was conducted at the behest of the Department of Agriculture and Food with which we are looking at a number of initiatives in that regard.

The Food Safety Authority of Ireland has primacy in the management of food alerts. Under the legislation, our role is to ensure there are protocols in place to ensure rapid dissemination of complete and accurate information, particularly in cross-Border alerts. There are two regulatory bodies on the island — the Food Safety Authority of Ireland and the Food Standards Agency in Northern Ireland. Our role is to draw up protocols with these two organisations to ensure cross-Border alerts are responded to. Ours is an audit role. We are not involved in the management of alerts.

The need for a reference laboratory was referred to. This is a matter on which we have been working for some time. The position is that while there are interim reference facilities available on the island — in Galway in the case of salmonella — there is no national reference service in the South. All pathogens, North and South, are sent to Colindale in London. While the Northern Ireland arrangement with the centre in Colindale is structured, the arrangement with the South is informal. We recognise this issue needs to be addressed. We have consulted widely on the various options available in the provision of a reference service on an all-island basis, in respect of which a number of models are being considered. The legislation is very specific in that a strategy must be proposed to the North-South Ministerial Council for consideration. We have a specific remit and the process is ongoing. I hope that by September the proposals will be in place and that we will be in a position to forward them to the sponsoring Departments for initial consideration.

Deputy Upton asked a number of questions about laboratory accreditation, dioxin measurement and viruses with which I will ask Dr. Quigley to deal.

Dr. Quigley

I will do my best to answer my former lecturer.

Deputy Upton

They all did very well.

Dr. Quigley

I will begin with the problem posed by food borne viruses which is recognised by us and I hope other agencies as a major source of concern. We have tried to put together a food borne virus network on the island for research purposes and also to gather the information currently not being gathered.

We conducted a major study of the level of gastroenteritis in the community, the findings of which were published at the end of last year. It indicated that there were in excess of 8,000 cases of gastroenteritis per day on the island. Gastroenteritis has many sources and can be either a bacterial or viral infection. This means there are more than three million cases per year on the island. This has huge implications for the health service and the economy. Through the study, we identified that in excess of €173 million was lost per annum in earnings. We are, therefore, talking about a serious matter, in respect of which we need to advance our information.

With regard to bacterial viruses, we have tried to provide for a network and connection with the controllers and preventers of disease at cross-Border level. We have undertaken training programmes in the Border counties for the environmental health, veterinary and public health services. These are practical interventions which also try to gather information. They are being carried out from a policy as well as an applied practical point of view.

Since our inception, we have identified a great need for stronger epidemiological professional support. We have tried to identify training programmes to provide greater epidemiological training for our medical and scientific professions. These programmes are well advanced.

Laboratory accreditation is an important issue. We were asked about the Border strategic review taking place in public laboratories. All of our public health laboratories, namely, laboratories sponsored by the Department of Health and Children, are accredited. Deputy Upton indicated accreditation as a major factor in being able to say in cases involving litigation accredited tests had been conducted.

A number of laboratories are approved by the Department of Agriculture and Food. There are 24 such laboratories on the island, 19 of which are in the South. These are approved but not necessarily accredited laboratories — there is a slight distinction. We identified early that it would be best practice to have laboratories accredited and have worked with Department of Agriculture and Food approved laboratories in providing training so as to move them towards accreditation.

A reference dioxins facility is being developed at UCC but there is also a need for screening of the food supply to develop a rapid method of detection. Two studies are being carried out with public analyst laboratories, one in the North and one in the South, to develop a more rapid and less rigorous dioxin screening programme. This work is being advanced.

Deputy Upton

I appreciate that Mr. Higgins was not the person who decided the location of the Food Safety Promotion Board. It appears from what he said that middle Ireland would somehow be more appropriate, or perhaps Dublin, but that is just an observation as I appreciate he had no role in the matter. It does not make much sense to locate the laboratory in Cork when much of the business is being transacted in Dublin and there is interaction with Belfast.

On the number of cases of gastroenteritis identified by Dr. Quigley, is it correct to say they are not all food related? How many are food-related and who funds the research? A good research programme is being undertaken but I presume the funding is being provided by other bodies and that Mr. Higgins's organisation has the role of commissioning and monitoring it. Does his organisation also provide the funding?

Mr. Higgins

We fund all research.

Deputy Upton

All I can say is "Well done". It sounds like good value for money.

Salt levels in food have arisen as an issue recently in the United Kingdom where a number of industries have had their knuckles rapped by people in government. Are there concerns here about the levels of salt in many prepared foods? Should there be an intervention to ensure minimum requirements are set?

My last question refers to the frightened lady in the advertisement. When I see it, I head for my kitchen to get some food. Is there a reaction to it and is it broadcast in Northern Ireland?

Mr. Higgins

The salt level issue is a source of major concern because most of the salt in our diet is ingested through processed food. Approximately 5% is added salt. People do not know what amount of salt they are ingesting. There is a move internationally to get manufacturers to reduce the level of salt in products such as bread and breakfast cereals, for example. We welcome moves in this direction. The nutrition sub-commission has carried out a study of salt levels.

Dr. Quigley

The level of salt is an issue. What we are hearing from nutritionists and dieticians is that there is a great focus on obesity. Cardiovascular disease continues to remain the highest killer on the island, in respect of which the high level of salt is a contributory factor. The level of salt used is being identified as a major food safety issue and the Food Safety Authority of Ireland is examining its regulation. Because we are an all-island body, there is a need for harmonised messages, North and South. The salt level issue was top of the agenda at the recently reconvened nutrition forum. It is hoped to reach a consensus and adopt a harmonised approach. It is the practice within fast food outlets in the Midland Health Board area to try to encourage people to use less salt which can be a double-edged sword.

Mr. Higgins

Advertisements are broadcast throughout the island. Satellite channels such as Sky can beam advertisements specifically aimed at the Irish market. There has been a small number of complaints from people who perceive the person in the home being portrayed as the perpetrator. However, the purpose of the advertisement is to let people know they can make a difference in their own homes and generally the response has been very good. Twice a year we track the response and the message is being picked up. As part of our research, we show a flash card and ask people what the advertisement is about. A number say it is about cleaning the fridge and washing one's hands, which is encouraging. A number of my male friends are now afraid to have barbecues.

Deputy Ó Fearghaíl mentioned the barbecue season. I am not sure if we have figures but I will check and forward them to the committee. However, there is likely to be under-reporting. When a number of people are infected in a major outbreak, it is easy to trace the source. However, because barbecues are increasingly organised by hotels, the numbers are small and may not show up.

The particular hazard associated with barbecues is that the cooking is imprecise because one is not cooking in an oven. Our practical advice is that food should be cooked and finished on the barbecue. It is important to keep raw meat chilled until it is about to be cooked. Our advice is to ensure the juices run clear and the food is properly cooked. Control of temperature on a barbecue is much more difficult than in a domestic kitchen.

A number of questions were raised by Deputy Ferris. Foot and mouth disease does not constitute a human health issue. It does not have food safety implications. However, many recognise it as a food safety issue. When people talk about food scares, BSE and foot and mouth disease are often mentioned, even though they are not food borne diseases.

On the issue of co-operation in the management of foot and mouth disease — there was huge co-operation on a North-South basis — the models exist for North-South bodies. If the policy is to examine the issue of animal health on an all-island basis, there are models that could be followed.

Interest in GM foods has lessened compared to four or five years ago, yet it is still an issue of major concern to consumers. While we know that for certain groups E.coli can cause very serious illness, people are still concerned about issues such as GM foods and consumers have a right to information. If they do not want to eat GM food, there must be a robust labelling regime which allows them to make that decision. It is difficult to trace the GM product in food. In some cases where oils are derived from GM soya, for example, there may not be GM material in the food but people still want to know they are not eating food from a GM source. In that case, a traceability system is the only way forward.

On the issue of obesity, many reputable fast food operators such as the major chains have invested in food safety systems. There is a high level of safety associated with such foods. The difficulty nutritionists have, however, is that they are high in fat. Portion size presents a problem. I recently heard some interesting figures. In the 1950s portions in fast food outlets in the United States were approximately half the current normal portion size while soft drinks were approximately five fluid ounces. The standard is now 15 fluid ounces. Many fast food chains are now reducing portion size which is to be welcomed. The amount of food we eat presents as big a problem as its nature.

Deputy Ferris also asked about the food safety education programme and a comparative study of food risk perception in post-primary schools. Dr. Quigley will deal with this question.

Dr. Quigley

That project is part of a suite of projects we had to develop. We identified that it was important to target particular messages at the younger age group. This study relates to the scientific messages schoolchildren are receiving from their peer groups and the media and is trying to come up with a model that will address the way young children think in terms of their peer perceptions. It is examining how scientific as well as good health messages should be communicated to post-primary schoolchildren. We are trying to produce a CD-ROM to integrate the model into the school curriculum in order to ensure a health conscious attitude is adopted.

The other aspect is the whole school approach to food and health issues. I hope this will be provided for through the focus groups based on models used in schools, North and South, which will help to advance the notion of a whole school approach to health and wellbeing. They are providing the evidence base.

Mr. Higgins

Deputy Ó Fearghaíl mentioned the barbecue season, a matter with which I have dealt.

On the craft food sector, one of the challenges for small craft or artisan producers is presented by the burden of regulations which are a barrier to entry. This is a difficult issue with which to deal as there is no doubt food safety regulations are stringent. If there is a lessening of regulation, is it perceived by the consumer that products are produced in a less safe way? This is a challenge that needs to be addressed. The proportionality of the regulations must be also considered. The Food Safety Authority of Ireland, which is involved in the regulatory side of things, has a sub-committee of artisan producers.

One of the challenges is that the consumer is a long way from the producer. In days gone by, people bought their food products directly from the farm or from a farm shop. Today's consumer has no appreciation of what the producer is doing. We facilitated a public meeting in Rosscarbery, at the request of local pig producers, to which consumers were invited. Small producers were able to talk to consumers about current issues and explain what they were doing to contribute to food safety. We have also had initial discussions with Associated Craft Butchers of Ireland on how we can facilitate their interaction with consumers. We want to create an environment in which consumers have confidence in the food they eat. If we can provide a channel through which producers and consumers can interact with each other, we can go a long way towards building that confidence. We have no involvement in the management of regulations, however.

The report on the review of the health board laboratories is being finalised and will be presented to the Minister for Health and Children in mid-July. The report is still to be finalised, but I will ask Dr. Quigley to give an overview of the issues that were considered.

Dr. Quigley

This is a review of the public laboratories which are under the control of the Department of Heath and Children and reside in health board areas. There are approximately ten of these in Ireland. I say "approximately" because one of the laboratories is both a public analyst laboratory and a microbiology laboratory. As they are within the health board areas there has been some discussion of amalgamation or sharing of information. The review strategically considers how we can develop these laboratories so they can work as a unit. Its conclusion will be that they should become a much more unified service. The group will recommend that the service be recognised at national level as a single service which operates in various regions rather than as a health board service providing local information. As the Minister has not yet seen the report, I cannot say more at this time.

Mr. Higgins

I hope we have answered all the questions asked but I would be happy to provide further clarification if members require it.

Vice-Chairman

On behalf of the committee I thank Mr. Higgins, Mr. Kerr, Mr. Quigley and Mr. Dolan for attending. The exchange of views between members of Safefood and the committee has been worthwhile. I thank them for the information they have given us.