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JOINT COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE AND FOOD debate -
Wednesday, 6 Oct 2004

Dog Breeders Association of Ireland: Presentation.

I welcome Mr. Paul Flood, Ms Mary Boland and Ms Jessica Grogan, representatives of the Dog Breeders Association of Ireland, who will discuss puppy farming. Before Mr. Flood commences his presentation, I draw attention to the fact that while members are covered by privilege, others appearing before the committee are not. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses, or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Policy relating to dogs is a matter for the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government in the first instance. However, the joint committee decided to invite the Dog Breeders Association of Ireland before it to discuss puppy farming under its work programme entitled, Alternative Farming. I ask Mr. Flood to proceed with his presentation.

Mr. Paul Flood

I thank the Chairman for arranging the meeting and the clerk to the committee, Mr. Eoin Faherty, for organising it. I thank the joint committee for its correspondence with regard to same. The Dog Breeders Association of Ireland is most appreciative of the time and effort required to arrange this meeting.

We attend today to represent the members of the Dog Breeders Association of Ireland, North and South. Our main objective is to improve the conditions for all dog breeders involved in the industry and eradicate cruelty in this area. We will speak initially about the importance of the Department of Agriculture and Food to the industry and the requirement that it accept dog breeding within its area of responsibility for the benefit of private breeding, the greyhound industry and dog breeding in general. For this reason, we ask the Minister to transfer responsibility for dogs from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to the Department of Agriculture and Food.

Dog breeding in Ireland is mainly a rural enterprise. More than 90% of those involved are small farmers or farmers' wives who use the additional income it generates to support their families and pay college fees. A dog breeder may be a small farmer who needs to subsidise his income for the purpose of educating his children, putting them through college or meeting other costs. Most breeders need to subsidise their farming income.

A significant number of older people who are unable to farm large animals but able to manage smaller animals also become involved in breeding to earn income. We encourage widows and single, divorced and separated women in rural areas to breed dogs to gain an income without having to leave young children. It is necessary to fill the space in the rural community in which farming was once the main source of income for women and men.

Our main objective, in addition to those I have outlined, is to request that the Minister rewrite the section in planning legislation to allow the keeping of dogs under agricultural structures, class 6, that is, works consisting of a roofed structure for the housing of cattle, sheep, goats, donkeys, horses, deer, rabbits, poultry and dogs. As in our previous correspondence, we have explained the difficulties with regard to planning issues. A considerable number of agricultural sheds lie empty and could be put to use for breeding purposes. This would provide small farmers with an opportunity to obtain extra income legitimately.

The dog food industry is worth more than €40 million per annum in the Republic. Dog breeding, including, for example, the need for vaccinations and other work, forms a vital part of the income of rural veterinary surgeons. It is a multi-million euro industry, providing significant income to veterinary surgeons working with small animals. Employment in this area alone has a major effect on the rural economy.

The revenue obtained from dog food is of considerable importance to the Government, as private breeders do not benefit from the reduced VAT rate available to the greyhound industry. Redmills, Gain and other feed companies obtain considerable income from the dog breeding industry. For these reasons alone, we need to improve dog breeding to continue to generate employment in the industry.

As an association involved in the breeding of dogs, we are appalled by some of the cases reported on television and other media. Anyone who keeps an animal in inhumane conditions should lose the right to keep animals and, in some cases, the owners should be prosecuted. Sometimes, however, people take in stray animals or purchase them simply for the purpose of rescuing them. This creates a grey area which needs to be treated with caution and requires traceability on the part of the Irish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals and voluntary groups. There is no need for animals to be treated in this way, given that veterinary treatment is readily available at a cost acceptable to most people.

True dog breeders have always looked after their animals and the cost of providing due care is not important to them. Most professional breeders always have a veterinary surgeon available to their kennels, with even private animal lovers availing of veterinary help. A small minority of breeders has brought the activity into disrepute and damaged the reputation of breeders in general. Dog breeding must be controlled by reputable associations such as the DBAI or others working in the field.

We are all aware of considerable negative press about dog breeding. While some of this is justified, much of it is biased and incorrect. The media seldom represent legitimate dog breeders in their coverage. They have, however, successfully damaged the integrity of legitimate dog breeders. It is our aim is to correct this by improving the welfare of dogs bred in this country.

Recent raids on puppy farms and the ensuing media circus have damaged the reputation of dog breeders. Since this media onslaught, we have been made aware that Irish dogs will not be accepted in certain areas of the United Kingdom. This is the reason we want to improve and legitimise dog breeding and to show the overseas market that Irish breeders can produce dogs of high quality, with lineage and traceability.

Why was it necessary for the Ulster Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals to come to the South? Why were the dogs seized during the recent raids brought into the jurisdiction of the North from the Republic? This matter could have been handled in a different manner without the aid of the Ulster Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals. Irish legislation was disregarded in these raids and we believe the law may have been broken. Unfortunately, legislation was not readily available with regard to the Dogs Act 1986 and the public were unaware that the ISPCA has no power of entry without the aid of either a garda or a dog warden.

Through our association, the appropriate authorities were notified, received the relevant legislation and were made aware that laws must strictly be adhered to. It is not acceptable to break the law. We found the Garda Síochána to be of great assistance in these matters and we worked well with gardaí eventually. We thank them for their assistance.

Why did the ISPCA involve the USPCA in the seizing of Irish dogs? Why were the dogs brought into the Northern jurisdiction? The USPCA's biased and partisan treatment of breeders in the Irish Republic is not acceptable to Irish citizens. We now have to reverse the terrible damage caused to the legitimate breeders by improving conditions in order that such circumstances cannot arise in the future.

The animal protection organisations need to retain their voluntary status only and should be strictly regulated by the Government. We will submit this request to the Minister. We would like to work in the same area as the ISPCA in eradicating the keeping of dogs in cruel or inhumane conditions. The Dog Breeders Association of Ireland should self-govern its members and work to ensure cruelty to dogs is eradicated. In vetting our members, we could free up valuable time for the ISPCA to allow it to pursue genuine cases of cruelty. We ask the ISPCA to contact us if any query arises in connection with our members. We would then investigate the matter with our veterinary surgeon. There should be sufficient self-governing bodies in the Republic to ensure there is no need for the Ulster Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals to come South and enforce laws.

Our main aim is to improve dog breeding. The association has a number of veterinary surgeons willing to work with it and intends to invite several others to do so too. All members follow our code of ethics and veterinary approval is required for each breeder's premises. No breeder is allowed to join without a veterinary certificate, which is included in the presentation. We would like to set up a national database for all breeding stock using microchips. This would ensure good quality puppies and dogs and traceability as regards lineage and breeders.

With funding, we would appoint inspectors to work and help breeders to improve and develop their kennels and premises. We would ensure our breeders are inspected regularly and the conditions of the premises involved kept appropriately. Exercise areas would be appropriate to each particular breed of dog and subject to a veterinary surgeon's recommendation.

It is our aim to make sure only quality puppies are exported. A great imbalance is evident in the control and monitoring of the shipping of pedigree dogs from Ireland via aircraft or boat. Most of the cruelty problems which arise are in connection with transport by sea. No regulations are in force regarding the shipping of dogs and we would like to see improvements in this area. At present, this leaves open to abuse the shipping of puppies to one of the main markets, Great Britain.

We have a number of suggestions to put forward to regulate this situation. All transport containers should be large enough to permit dogs to stand up, turn around and lie down with ease, similar to IATA regulations. Container size should be specified for individual animals, according to breed, puppy size, etc. The number of animals permitted in each container should require regulation similar to that of the IATA.

Dogs that are exported should be microchipped for the purposes of identification, traceability, health records, vaccinations and travel documents. All exporters should provide fresh food, water and bedding at all times. Dogs should be fed and watered in accordance with Department of Agriculture and Food regulations.

Rules should also apply for dogs being exported by air. The crate in which a dog travels should be airline-approved. Food and water should be available at all times. Extra food and water should travel separately. No more than two puppies should be allowed per crate and the crate must be large enough for them to be able to stand and turn without any difficulty. All puppies should carry a veterinary health certificate and vaccination record. Puppies going to EU countries or getting a connecting flight in an EU country should be microchipped. Paperwork giving details of breed, age, and the name of both consignee and consignor should be stamped by the Department of Agriculture and Food. Should a problem arise at the airport in connection with paperwork or conditions, puppies should not be allowed to travel.

We are interested in being involved in the formulation of legislation that would greatly improve the conditions, traceability and welfare of puppies. This would also help to address the negative image prevalent in the British media towards Irish puppies and dog breeders. We believe there is an underlying agenda with regard to same. The importation of puppies from Ireland is causing market pressure on the UK breeders of pedigree puppies. It would be a lot easier for them if puppies were not imported from here.

It has come to our attention that a number of legitimate shippers from Ireland have been held for questioning by UK police and port officials. Some have been held for hours on end under the Prevention of Terrorism Act. This is not acceptable treatment of decent Irish citizens.

Dog breeding is an honourable and legitimate small rural enterprise and should get every help from the State to develop and assist breeders. We thank the former Minister, Deputy Cullen, for inviting us to become involved with the new dog breeding review group. For the benefit of all dog breeders in Ireland, we want to ensure that only the best puppies are exported to the UK, the Continent and worldwide.

The joint committee notes that submissions have been invited by the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government for a public consultation and review of the management of dog breeding establishments. I expect Mr. Flood's organisation will participate in the review and make submissions, which we welcome very much.

I thank Mr. Flood, Ms Boland and Ms Grogan for their presentation. I have to admit the issue of dog breeding impacted on our consciousness when the bad treatment of dogs became apparent with the exposure of puppy farming. If memory serves me, two or three cases were highlighted. Following that I made inquiries and was surprised to discover the area is under the control of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. I support the call to have responsibility for this area come within the remit of the Department of Agriculture and Food.

Mr. Flood called for the inclusion of facilities for dogs under the planning guidelines for agricultural structures. I can see why the care of dogs should be put on an equal footing with agricultural activity. This matter could also be pursued with local authorities, whose responsibility it is in the first instance.

The draft development plan in County Wicklow includes measures to encourage agriculture-related activities in rural areas, particularly in view of the need for diversification in agriculture to secure off-farm income. I concur with Mr. Flood's statement that dog breeding can become an important economic activity. Until recently I was unaware of the substantial amount of dogs exported to Great Britain, in the region of 250 a week and a further 40 or 50 to the Continent.

We are all familiar with anecdotal stories relating to children getting a dog for Christmas which would be put out of the house in January. We must give more attention to this issue. I recently met a man in a local pub who commented on the very wild dog tied to the gate outside my house. When I got home that night a perfectly manicured golden coloured Doberman Pinscher was tied to my gate. I could not get into my house. I contacted a group based between Knockananna and Rathdangan in County Wicklow who came the next morning and took him away.

I welcome Mr. Flood's willingness to get involved in the regulation of the industry, especially in regard to the transport conditions of animals sent abroad. I will pursue the important issues he raised. Many people were distressed by the images they saw of dogs involved in puppy farming. It was hard to believe that people could do such things. However, we have also come across similar neglect in regard to farm animals and we must monitor these matters carefully.

I commend the former Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Cullen, on setting up a review group to examine the dog breeding industry. I hope the new Minister, Deputy Roche, will continue the work in this area.

I apologise for being late as I missed the beginning of Mr. Flood's presentation. I would like an opportunity to contribute further to the debate at a later point.

I thank Mr. Flood for his presentation. The Irish dog breeding industry has been very under-represented and very little attention has been paid to it. We owe a great debt to groups such as Petwatch, which operates largely on a voluntary basis, and takes great care of animals that have suffered. I accept Mr. Flood's group has a different framework on which to concentrate.

Two separate points were made in regard to rogue breeders who have done a great deal of damage to legitimate dog breeding. This is a major problem and, unfortunately, there will be some long-term effects. These people have much to answer for and I realise it has been very difficult to track them, legally or otherwise.

I agree very much with the thrust of the presentation and its recommendations, especially the development of tagging and traceability. Mr. Flood is quite correct in saying this small industry could be developed. It could be very productive and effective in rural Ireland, but it needs to be structured and controlled. People need to know how to trace the movement of animals and be assured that animals are maintained in the best conditions.

I agree this area should come within the remit of the Department of Agriculture and Food. Dogs should come within the same category as other animals such as cattle. All the conditions that apply in regard to animal welfare should also apply to dogs. I would like to see a database in this area which could be easily achieved by means of electronic tagging with microchips. A cattle movement monitoring system is already in place and we deal with a great deal more cattle than dogs. The difficulties in that regard should be very easily overcome in dealing with dogs.

The delegates mentioned in their paper that they believed there was an underlying agenda. We feel there is one with regard to negative publicity. Will the delegates elaborate on this point? I would not discount the importance of the media in this area. I know certain subjects can be inflated but I believe the media played a very important part in highlighting the damage that has been done to the dog industry, the cruelty to dogs that have been used for breeding to an unacceptable extent and the conditions under which they were housed for long periods, clearly inflicting considerable pain and making them suffer unnecessarily.

Given that Mr. Flood has identified puppy farming as a potential small industry — he identified the various sectors in this regard — there should be a database because people should be tax compliant. Furthermore, rogue breeders should be brought to heel — if that is not an inappropriate term in this case — to ensure that they explain what they are doing and register the profits they make in what could be a lucrative industry.

I should have indicated to Mr. Flood that we are taking queries from three members at a time, after which he can respond. Deputy Ó Fearghaíl is next. He is the one who contacted the committee with a view to inviting the Irish Dog Breeders Association to attend. I am glad it has been able to accept the invitation.

The salient points have been made but I join Deputies Timmins and Upton in congratulating the breeders of Ireland for setting up this representative body. Others said puppy farming has been something of an invisible industry for many years. Two positive developments that emerged from the negative press in recent times have been the establishment of this organisation and the initiative of the Minister, Deputy Cullen, to set up a review group to plan for the future development of the industry. It is interesting that colleagues agree that it may well be best to place the industry under the aegis of the Department of Agriculture and Food. Perhaps in the course of Mr. Flood's response he might outline some of the benefits he believes will accrue to the industry when responsibility moves from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Governmentto the Department of Agriculture and Food.

We all accept that people in rural areas and the farming community must, of necessity, diversify. Mr. Flood has set out very clearly the way in which the puppy farming industry can be developed as an alternative rural enterprise.

I compliment the Irish Dog Breeders Association on the proposals to develop the system of traceability by way of microchipping. It is very interesting to contrast this with the reaction of certain people in other sectors of agriculture who have not warmly welcomed the idea of traceability or ready identification. Mr. Flood's proposal is very solid. If this committee, the Department of Agriculture and Food or the institutions of State can assist him, they should do so.

Will Mr. Flood state how his organisation is developing and whether he will recruit more members and get all those involved in the industry to partake in the organisation? How will the organisation help to eradicate the aforementioned incidences of cruelty, which are totally unacceptable?

Mr. Flood

To respond to the question on cruelty, we regard puppy farming as an enterprise. In rural Ireland it is sometimes the case that farmers' sons cannot make a substantial living from farming once they get married. What they have been doing is keeping a few dogs in sheds that were used for rearing pigs or calves. There is a ready market for a quality dog. The media have misrepresented the industry. Unless a puppy is presentable, there is no market for it. Those breeders who are cruel are therefore just a waste of time because nobody can sell unhealthy dogs.

Dogs are exported from Ireland every day destined for America. It is a growing market and brings foreign currency into the country. Wives from rural areas with no crèche facilities can stay at home and mind their children and at the same time earn an income by minding a few dogs. This is not the way the industry is portrayed in the media. Some 99% of all those involved have small numbers of dogs. It is just a way of boosting their income.

We examined the issue of microchips. There are a few bad people in puppy farming, as there are in every industry. We are not interested in them. Anyone who has become involved in our association has put much time, effort and research into the industry. We feel that all dogs in Ireland, not just pedigree dogs, should be micro-chipped. Therefore, if a dog is found on the street, the owner can pay the price.

If a quality breeder is breeding a quality dog, he can obtain a premium price for it and we can sell it in a premium place. Such dogs have to be in an adequate state of health. No animal will have or rear pups if it is not happy and healthy. We are selling a product that must be right and that is why we are serious about it. We have a great opportunity to develop the industry. Eastern Europe is developing it and the British Government has considered developing and subsidising it in Wales. We do not see why we cannot exploit the neighbouring market.

Does Mr. Flood wish to respond to any of the questions asked?

Mr. Flood

We have considered the database and microchipping. We spoke to one of the main people in the microchip business and we propose to have a database that will be available to the Garda. If the Garda has an issue with a dog, it will be able to identify its owner. Every puppy over a certain age will be micro-chipped. If there is a problem with a dog that has been micro-chipped, our association will be able to trace the person to whom it was sold and deal with it. The breeder will keep a contract.

Unfortunately, the media portrayed people who are not good. Such people do not represent what we want to do and that is why we established the organisation. The media portrayal has made genuine people panic and driven them out of the industry. It has made them believe it is wrong. There has been injustice but we are not interested in looking back. We want to look forward. We want to build the industry legitimately and make breeders proud that they breed pedigree dogs.

I welcome the delegates and support broadly what they stated in their document. They should be complimented on it because it is not every organisation that wants to regulate itself. It shows that they feel the industry is important to so many people. I knew very little about it until the drastic pictures appeared on the television. I know one breeder. The first time it came to my attention that he was genuine was when he stayed at home rather than attend a function to mind the 13 pups to which his bitch had given birth. I felt this was very good.

I support the idea of moving responsibility for dogs from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to the Department of Agriculture and Food. At present, there is a good system in agriculture to ensure animals are kept in good conditions. The veterinary section is very active in ensuring this is the case. We are aware of the number of prosecutions that have made in recent years and of herdowners who have had their herds removed from them. The system of traceability in the agriculture system is good and it would probably be possible for the puppy farming industry to build on it.

I will not be repetitive. I compliment the delegates on their presentation. A letter should be sent from this committee supporting the delegates' aims, as outlined today.

Like the previous speakers, I welcome the presentation. It was very informative and would put the industry on the right footing. To be truthful, until now the first thing that came to mind when one thought of puppy farming was severe cruelty to animals. Some rogue individuals have given the industry a bad name. The cruelty inflicted on animals is unbelievable. The association has much to do to get rid of the people involved in this and abolish those images. The microchip is a good idea not alone for animals that are exported but also for those at home. Like other members of the committee I have seen how dogs destroy sheep. People would be more careful with their animals if they knew such attacks could be traced back to them. We should fully support the organisation's excellent proposals.

I welcome the delegation and the presentation. I support what it is trying to do. The harrowing images shown on TV and in the papers brought to light something of which many of us were unaware. Most farmers have a dog or two and they are almost part of the family. It is appalling to treat an animal in the way some of these animals have been treated. I compliment the Dog Breeders Association of Ireland on what it is trying to do. The change in responsibility from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government will be beneficial but the outgoing Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government took the initiative. It does not matter what Department is responsible as long as the industry is put on a proper footing and above all that the animals are well treated. I wish the association well.

Mr. Flood

It seems contradictory that if one ships a dog abroad one must make the Department of Agriculture and Food aware of this. If the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government is responsible for the animals why does one have to contact the Department of Agriculture and Food in respect of shipping? There are very stringent regulations in respect of shipping dogs by plane which are enforced to a very high standard. We are trying to achieve balance. It involves hard work but if we get Government funding we could build this process and run seminars and courses on how to do this correctly and place them in the right area. There are many sheds lying idle around the country and young people leaving farms. This is a great opportunity to keep people in rural Ireland with an alternative enterprise. It is a good add-on. We would like to have a van and someone to visit the farms every six months as the Department of Agriculture and Food does to help people improve bloodlines, and to ensure they use nutritious food.

We have no time for those who mistreat dogs and we want them to leave the industry. We are being slated in America. Dogs have been shipped to America for years but now there are websites criticising Irish dogs. We are trying to eradicate this but it will take a lot of money and time to respond to questions and deal with these websites. There were a few people mistreating dogs but the media have never raided a breeder and reported finding ten dogs in beautiful condition. They visited only the extreme cases. The ISPCA acknowledged this because it visited almost 100 people and found only one or two problems. Some people are foolish, others grow old and cannot manage. We would like to be able to offer to relocate their puppies or dogs. Our dream and objective is to clean up our image. We know many energetic young people who see this as a way of staying on the farm and who are anxious to work with us and develop the business. There is a good market abroad for a quality well-bred dog.

I welcome the association and its excellent presentation. The PR side of puppy and dog breeding is a problem but the association is taking steps to improve that. An issue about breeding and training raised in my constituency and elsewhere is that, for example, sniffer dogs are trained to a certain level and then exported to the United Kingdom. A dog worth €1,000 on export may return worth €5,000. We need to examine this because it seems unfair to the trainer here.

I wish the association continued success because the value added in terms of puppy breeding is of major benefit to large and small farmers throughout the country. If there is anything we can do I would be more than delighted to help out.

I welcome the association and apologise for being late but I was at another committee meeting and missed the presentation. However, I have been skimming through the notes and listening to the contributions by other members. I support the transfer of responsibility to the Department of Agriculture and Food which is the natural home for such activity. It is the correct way to go. Some bad press has done serious damage to the good work done by people with a genuine concern for animal welfare. Coming from a farming background I am conscious of the need to provide another source of income to people in rural areas who find it difficult in current circumstances to survive there. I appreciate the code of ethics and inspection of premises and the documents the association has furnished. When adhered to they allay any fears. There are cowboys who do not adhere to the code but that does not affect the principle behind the association's actions. I wish it well.

I welcome the association and its presentation. It deserves much praise and has taken a very professional approach to its work. It makes sense to move responsibility for the dog associations and problems from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to the Department of Agriculture and Food because that Department handles most of these issues; the county vet handles stray dogs and the pounds. Has the association many members in Donegal?

I echo the remarks of the previous speakers in welcoming the deputation and thanking it for its presentation. How many dogs must a breeder produce before it will qualify to be in this particular section, as I call it? That does not interfere with the small breeder.

I am in favour of microchipping dogs, particularly as pet dogs are so expensive. Recently one heard of advertisements drawing people to certain hotel car parks where they were forced to hand over these dogs, which was very wrong.

The association emphasised that it is not within the remit of the Ulster Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals to come into the Republic. Can the association be more explicit on this? Why was it necessary for the Ulster Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals to come into the South? The association is asking many questions which the committee cannot answer. Does the association have any answers? There are not many puppy farms in west Limerick but there are small breeders. I would not like to think they would have to join the association.

Has the association examined the costs of electronic tagging? Several years ago, I met a group of sheep farmers who had problems with dogs harassing flocks. I was informed then it would cost €30 million to micro-chip all the dogs in the State. I am not sure whether it was a Department or local authority official who gave me that figure. Has the association got its own figure for this? Does anyone know the exact number of dogs in the State?

The association acknowledged that the ISPCA has carried out a good service with the dog warden scheme run by county councils. Can the association, the ISPCA and other organisations involved in animal welfare work more closely together?

Many believe that dogs are just wild animals. However, anyone from a rural area and agricultural background knows this is not true. They will know the importance of a good dog in farm work, particularly with sheep. It is important that those dogs are properly trained and looked after. It is impossible to get labour for that type of work. But for the skill of a sniffer dog, the €6 million drugs haul last week in County Wexford would not have happened. Dogs have a useful and beneficial purpose.

This committee must support every organisation that is trying to do a good job for animal welfare. I never had to pay for a dog in my life as mine were either strays or from neighbours and friends. However, recently a neighbour of mine paid €450 for a little puppy. Pets can be very valuable and breeding can complement incomes for stay-at-home wives and small farmers. This committee should support the association in its demands. It is crazy that this subject falls under the remit of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. It should be under the Department of Agriculture and Food as all animal matters come within its remit.

I am in favour of the microchip proposal because it will bring structure and organisation to this area and ensure traceability. How have rogue breeders got away with what they are doing? Surely a breeder must present a piece of paper to validate the dog's pedigree. I know that from owning a pure-bred Labrador. Are people complicit in supporting this when buying from rogue breeders or are they just duped? Does the rogue breeder provide a bogus certificate as to the pedigree of the animal? I have been informed that it is impossible to get back to some of the breeders. Meetings are arranged by mobile phone in hotel car parks. It seems people are just being duped by them.

As the association's work is so important, it should consider getting its message across through the schools. It is important that all animals are treated well, particularly dogs. I know there is a cost factor but it should be considered.

Did the association consider discussions with Bord na gCon? As it exports many greyhounds, it already has a database and the association might be better off under its jurisdiction.

Mr. Flood

Many people are afraid to put their heads above the parapet when there is trouble. They tend not get involved until it quietens down. However, we have decided to put our heads above the parapet because there are many breeders in counties Kerry, Cork, Limerick, Donegal and throughout the country.

I knew a young farmer from the midlands interested in breeding German Shepherds and training them in ready-for-man-work. The dog will be a normal family pet but on a key word it will bark and on another it will attack until the owner calls its off. It is a powerful deterrent against undesirables for those people with valuable property and those on their own. Very few people will come at one, if a dog is going at them at hard pace. I went with the farmer to find out about these dogs in the UK where they are valued at up to €20,000. I spoke to the Garda dog training unit about this and it expressed interest in these dogs. They were putting dogs through their paces at Punchestown Racecourse. Unfortunately, such a dog in the wrong hands can be a weapon. There is no organisation to help dog breeders in this country and one has to go to Germany to do a course. There is an incredible market for dogs with this type of training. As an organisation, this is what we want to do.

I met a man in Dover who bought Labradors for €400. These were gun dogs which are very intelligent. Detecting drugs and explosives is a pure game to them. They are rewarded with a ball when they are successful. The Deputy is correct that 25 to 50 dogs go from Ireland to this man every three months for €500. I am sure the Garda and the port authorities are buying them back for €15,000 or €20,000. These are beautiful dogs and great pets but they are trained for a specific purpose. I looked into this matter in America. I spoke to two police forces there and asked them whether they would be interested. They said they would, but stringent courses must be undergone. Policemen in the UK offer such courses; one company is called K9. I know it is supplying dogs to Ireland for people who have valuable property and want a dog. No such facilities are offered in Ireland. I looked into the matter but got no support.

There are numerous add-ons. We have looked closely at micro-chipping. We would like to see all breeders, and the Garda, having a scanner, which can be bought for €200. We contacted suppliers through our association and bought in bulk. Information is fed in, and the number is read out and recorded. This involves a tiny pellet injected into the dog's neck, which can be traced at all times. If the number is fed into a national database, one can tell where the dog came from, and traceability is 100% guaranteed. In Germany and other countries in Europe this system is mandatory, and all dogs are covered.

When we inquired about buying in bulk, we were told a microchip would cost about €10 plus VAT. We could possibly get funding, and be exempted from the VAT. It would be of great value to Ireland if stray dogs were to become a thing of the past.

Ms Jessica Grogan

Regarding the USPCA coming South, the former Minister for Agriculture and Food, Deputy Joe Walsh, gave grants at the beginning of 2004 for €850,000 to the 80 pounds in the South of Ireland. In addition to local council pounds, there is also a pound in Longford, set up at a cost of €2.7 million. Considering the level of money involved, there should have been sufficient facilities in the South, and ISPCA facilities, for these dogs to be looked after.

Currently, if one buys a pedigree puppy, the breeder gives one a set of papers. Once there are no queries with regard to the owner of the dog, the person registering the puppy has the documents for the dam and sire and they have not been registered as puppies delivered inside of six months, the associations in this country will hand over a registration certificate. One could, therefore, be breeding a dog which is half Labrador and half some other breed, yet supplying Labrador papers. One could also supply papers for dead dogs. There is no real traceability through the paperwork. The only way to remedy that situation is through micro-chipping in order that the dam and the sire would be micro-chipped.

I am delighted to hear that Deputy Timmins got a free Dobermann. He could have got a few pounds for it.

As the county development plans are now all being changed, it would be advisable to bring dogs under the responsibility of the Department of Agriculture and Food. This is probably a good time to do that. For small farmers or for separated women with children, dog breeding can supply a small income, and people do not have to go out and leave children at home. As the funding was approved by the former Minister for Agriculture and Food, Deputy Walsh, it is important that dogs should be the responsibility of that Department.

Our society has some members in Northern Ireland — in Downpatrick, Tyrone and Omagh, and also in Donegal.

There was a question about puppy farming.

Mr. Flood

Puppy farming is a term invented by the media and is not one we recognise. Most people in Ireland would have fewer than five dogs. We have been given the name of puppy farmers. We will live with it. In a way, it is a type of farming because it is done for monetary gain. We are not going to exclude anyone and wish to develop the industry across the board. We are not interested merely in the big breeders but want everyone to become involved. If a person has a certain number of dogs that are properly inspected by veterinary surgeons and found to be healthy, there is no question as to his or her entitlement to have them. There should be no restrictions if the breeding is done having regard to the welfare of the animals.

Despite the media reports, most people who breed dogs love them. Great social outings are involved. Many old people in their sixties and seventies who breed dogs like to go out and spend a bit of time with them. These dogs are some of their best friends. They breed them as a means of making a few euro to buy oil or turf, or insure the car, or put a daughter through third-level education. They may not be able to do so on a farm labourer's wages.

This is what aggravates us. It is a countrywide issue. We see our association as giving a stamp of quality, such as Bord Bia provides. I am a member of the Irish Dog Breeders Association. If a member of our association is duped, we will deal with the situation and ensure the member is refunded in full. We want to advertise this stamp of quality here and abroad. Certain markets have simply been closed down overnight, though some people have spent years building up a market. The press were right to report what was wrong, but the reports may have been overdone. We feel there was no balance. We did not get a chance to voice our opinion. We talked to some press people who were not interested in our story.

Terrible damage has been done. The money comes into the country and stays there, with farmers' wives who use it for various purposes. The money is not going to some big corporation, but to small families. Despite what the press say, no one is making a fortune out of this. It is just a means of subsidising one's income.

Is the export market the biggest one? Is that where the greatest return is? Are most of the pure-bred dogs exported?

Mr. Flood

There are four million people in Ireland, but most dog owners just have a mutt. The commercial market is outside Ireland. There are 65 million people in England, where there is a good market.

In the UK, some pedigrees are not recognised. We try to provide a complete package, although I am not saying it is perfect. We have talked to the food manufacturers and to Bord na gCon. We have asked them for help. We have a code of ethics in place and inspections are carried out. All this demands funding. A media campaign involves big money. We are self-financing and have no money. We would like to educate people, and get the funding which Bord na gCon gets. I wish that board the best of luck. It has done great things for the Irish industry and brought greyhounds into the 21st century.

That is what we want to do with dog breeding. We do not want to see business being done in car parks. Much of what goes on is as a result of people being afraid. We have seen the television programmes showing people being entrapped. Some of them deserved to be, but not all. That exposure has forced people to carry on their business behind closed doors. If it were legitimised, and people were members of the Dog Breeders Association, they could carry it on in public without any fear. The shipping details could be tidied up. It is no good breeding a dog correctly if it is not shipped in the right condition.

Ms Grogan

In this country there is no blood testing of dogs. If microchip traceability were set up it could prove that animals were of the correct lineage. It would be a good idea to introduce that. If one is paying a large sum of money for a pet, one should get the genuine article.

Mr. Flood

From a financial point of view, such blood testing would not be possible. It would involve millions of euro.

I thank Mr. Flood and his colleagues from the Irish Dog Breeders Association for attending and for responding to questions raised by the members. We wish the organisation the best of luck in the future and this committee will provide any help it can.

Arising from the discussion, I suggest that copies of the submission made by Mr. Flood be forwarded for comment to the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, and to the Department of Agriculture and Food. Is that agreed? Agreed. Is it agreed that we suspend for two minutes and let our delegation depart? Agreed. We have other business to attend to.

Sitting suspended at 4.10 p.m. and resumed in private session at 4.15 p.m.
The joint committee adjourned at 4.30 p.m. until 4 p.m. on Wednesday, 13 October 2004.
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