JOINT COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE AND FOOD debate -
Wednesday, 13 Oct 2004

Food Policy and Poverty: Presentation.

Chairman

I welcome Mr. Jim Walsh, headof research policy at the Combat PovertyAgency; Ms Audrey Deane, national social policy officer of the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, and Mr. Jack Dunphy, programme manager of CROSSCARE, to discuss a recent report on food policy and poverty. Before Mr. Walsh commences his presentation, I draw attention to the fact that while members of the joint committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not extend to those appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses, or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

The report on food policy and poverty and a summary thererof have been circulated to members. I understand Mr. Walsh will make the main presentation, after which he and his colleagues will respond to members' questions.

Mr. Jim Walsh

It is an honour for the Combat Poverty Agency, CROSSCARE and the Society of St. Vincent de Paul to have an opportunity to address the joint committee. As the Chairman noted, the three organisations, in a kind of tripartite arrangement, recently published a report on food policy and poverty. I propose to distil the main points of the study in a short synopsis, after which I will highlight a number of policy areas which fit within the agriculture and food remit of the joint committee. I have circulated a summary of the overhead powerpoint presentation.

The report defines food poverty as "the inability to access a nutritionally adequate diet and the related impacts on health, culture and social participation." Food poverty could be considered old hat because the issue of the lack of food is central to the experience of poverty. One cannot imagine poverty without thinking of not having enough food. However, there has been a reluctance to address the issue of food as part of the poverty issue because of the sense of stigma and other factors.

Over the last years, all aspects of food, such as safety and consumption, have been on the public agenda. This has filtered into the analysis of poverty, causing a revaluation of the role of food as a central element of what it means to be poor in Ireland. A second element in food poverty is that it highlights specific barriers related to the access of foods. It is not just a question of inadequate income but also structural barriers which cause inequalities in people's ability to access nutritionally good quality food. Food poverty gets across the idea of specific constraints.

Food poverty is also an important issue because of its knock-on effects in other social domains. There has been much debate about health inequalities. It is increasingly recognised that social factors to do with food and diet are at the root of these inequalities, highlighting the strong link between food poverty and health inequalities. It is timely that this issue has been identified as one component of the wider poverty debate.

The Government's measure of consistent poverty combines income and deprivation of basic necessities. Three of the eight basic necessities are food related items. They include one substantial meal every day, the ability to have chicken, meat, fish or an equivalent every second day and the ability to have a roast or an equivalent once a week. The latest figures show that approximately 200,000 people, 5% of the population, are deprived of these basic necessities and are income poor, or as the Government classifies, consistently poor. This is the basic starting point of the numbers experiencing food poverty. Other evidence of food poverty, adduced in the report, shows how low income groups eat less well than better-off groups. Low income groups have specific difficulties in accessing nutritional food because of physical and shopping constraints. They spend proportionately more of their income — over 30% — on their food. This results in them being squeezed in the amount of money they are already spending on food, thus reducing the scope to spend more. They are also restricted in their food preferences by social and cultural norms.

Food poverty has not passed society by as there have been a number of different responses though they tend to be ad hoc rather than coherent. After the debate on inadequate welfare payments, the Government set a target in that regard. Having an adequate income is crucial to being able to buy enough food. There has been a debate on new initiatives in enhancing school meals. Emphasis has been placed on health education and promotion of proper nutrition by establishing community nutritionists. While the food production and distribution debate has been dominated by issues of food safety, there is the example of food banks acting as bridge between surplus foods and their distribution. The one existing food bank is based in Dublin.

The primary recommendation of the report is the need for a strategic framework to address food poverty. Having interviewed many stakeholders, surveyed the ad hoc initiatives and looked at best practice in the UK and other countries, the report recommends a co-ordinated approach to the issue as part of the national anti-poverty strategy. Poverty is often described as a multidimensional problem and food poverty is a classic example of such a problem. There are many aspects to the problem such as nutrition, purchasing power and access to food. Surprisingly, the national anti-poverty strategy makes no reference to food poverty, which highlights the recent currency of the concept. The strategy should provide a vehicle for a co-ordinated approach to food poverty based on the social partnership model of special initiatives under the social partnership agreement. As part of that co-ordinated approach, a national food and nutritional policy is needed, the core of which should be to ensure that everyone had access sufficient nutritional food. This can be supported by a cross-departmental team with national and local implementation.

Specific policy initiatives on food must be introduced. These include enhancing access to affordable food, improving living standards of people in poverty through welfare supports, addressing gaps in dietary knowledge, supporting community food initiatives and developing selective food provision. "Selective" is a key word as we are not advocating food stamps or mechanisms for the mass provision of food. There is a role for selective food provision for vulnerable groups through means such as homeless hostels, meals on wheels and school dinners.

Access to affordable food pertains to the remit of the committee. Concern was highlighted in the report that the cost of food is influenced in a negative way by the Common Agricultural Policy and by distributors and processors. There are particular localities where it is difficult to buy food because there are few if any shops while those available have a restricted range of foods. This is an urban and rural problem but is particularly stark in urban areas where one shop may serve a community of 5,000 people. These food deserts have seen the decline of the traditional corner shop. Stronger retail planning guidelines are needed as the out-of-town shopping centres undermine the viability of local shops. While in other countries local food co-operatives have been developed as alternative mechanisms to facilitate access to food in disadvantaged areas, in Ireland there is only one in Southhill. I have noted the growth of food markets but they tend to cater for the higher end of the market. Could they not be supported in terms of low income groups?

The industry produces surplus food. Can such food be harnessed in a more socially progressive way? This would entail expanding the role of food banks, which act as intermediaries between the producing and the distributing sectors and direct provision in a socially beneficial mode. That highlights, in particular, the role of corporate social responsibility. This is a theme of the national anti-poverty strategy. What is the role of the private sector in responding to social issues in society? There is a really good opportunity here for the food sector — farmers and producers — to demonstrate, in a tangible way, corporate social responsibility by entering into some type of contract arrangement whereby they allocate a certain percentage of their food production to food banks for socially beneficial purposes. There is not only a message for the State or for public agents in this report — there is also a strong message for voluntary groups and for the private sector.

We are having a round table discussion this Friday with the food sector to commemorate, or to mark, world food day which is on 16 October. In November, the Combat Poverty Agency is holding a national conference on nutrition and health to look at these issues from a health perspective. This is an issue which is going to run and run.

Ms Audrey Deane

I guess I could make it real for members by saying that two years ago the Vincentian Partnership for Justice did a qualitative study on low income families with children. I am a hardened social policy analyst but I was stopped in my tracks by one mother's directly cited comments. She said she bought sliced pans but that she kept them for a day because her children ate less of them when they were a day old. This woman had teenage sons. That is the reality.

The Society of St. Vincent de Paul is keen that we live in a society and not just an economy. That is why we are delighted to be here today to have a chance to engage with members. Members have lots of material to read, so I will quickly go through some of the points. Welfare dependent families are eating the cheaper, filler foods — potatoes, white bread and so on. It costs them more out of their low incomes. Mothers, in particular, will cut back if it comes to it. Despite the fact they spend the most on food, it is the one item they will de-prioritise. If they have a big bill for school uniforms or otherwise, they will cut back on food so, again, we are into difficulties about adequacy of diet.

Members all know the Department of Health and Children has its recommended daily allowances. We are always checking them on the back of our boxes of Special K, etc. However, the Vincentian Partnership for Justice research found when they analysed the consumption patterns and the daily intake of these low income families that they could not possibly have afforded to get their recommended daily allowances on their benefit. It is about adequacy of income, which is not the reality in Ireland. If members have comments, we would be delighted to address them.

Mr. Jack Dunphy

I welcome the opportunity to be here. I would not normally have the experience of addressing Members of the Oireachtas on such a topic. I suppose it is difficult to accept there is a food poverty issue in Ireland. When one talks to people about it, there is disbelief. People will say we are wrong and that we should look at how successful we have been. It is a hard concept, or a hard reality, to sell to people and I suppose this is part of the exercise of trying to communicate that reality. As Mr. Jim Walsh said, it is a reality experienced by a significant minority. A significant number of people go hungry every day. I suppose it is difficult to discuss and accept that and to agree some policy initiatives around it. This meeting and the round table discussion on Friday are about trying to push that forward.

Chairman

On the other hand, I am sure you all see the amount of food wasted in this country, particularly by well-off families. Food is thrown into the bin every day of the week.

Mr. Dunphy

The whole concept of food banking, which is a highly developed mechanism in European countries, is that there is an acknowledgement that there is huge food wastage in terms of production, marketing, mislabelling and products being at the end of promotional lines. There is huge dumping of perfectly safe edible food which does not reach people in need. The food banks, which are also very well developed in America, operate this redistribution system. There is a huge organisation in America called Second Harvest which is an interesting name. It gives food a second harvest to those who do not have the opportunity to get it at the first harvest. We must make it clear that food banking and the food bank system is not an alternative to proper income and family supports for people. It operates a certain space within the food sector.

Chairman

I understand Deputy Timmins will be leaving us. I congratulate him on his new portfolio — defence. It will not be new to him as he served in the Army for many years. As spokesperson on agriculture, I thank Deputy Timmins for his co-operation and assistance at this committee over the past two years. We were lucky and honoured to have a man of his calibre and I wish him well in his new position.

Deputy Timmins

I thank the Chairman and wish him well. I enjoyed my time on this committee and appreciate the courtesy the Chairman, his staff and the other members of the committee afforded me. I am sorry to be leaving the committee but I just said to Senator Coonan that one of the downsides of being the Fine Gael agriculture spokesperson is that it has many Members who come from agricultural backgrounds and one of the common complaints is that they never hear or see me. There are many difficulties in agriculture and Members often believe their difficulties are not being articulated, pontificated upon or discussed, which we all know is untrue. I will be joining the masses in the next few weeks in asking where is the Opposition, including Deputy Upton, the Labour Party spokesperson on agriculture. I will send many of the animal rights groups and GM issues their way to keep them on their toes. They have too cushy an arrangement here on the agriculture committee. I wish the committee well and I am sorry to be leaving.

I thank the Combat Poverty Agency for its contribution. Can I take it from the submissions that the groups believe the Common Agricultural Policy was detrimental in making food available to people in that it made it dearer? Do the groups believe food will be cheaper and more people will have access to it under the reformed CAP?

I do not have a definitive view on genetically modified foods and I often believe we are a little behind the wall in regard to the debate on them, but do the groups believe that if we had genetically modified foods and the markets were opened up to them, it would alleviate the difficulties of food poverty? That is one of the arguments. Perhaps they are not in a position to answer it but it is an argument one often hears put forward. There is the counter argument that it will, ultimately, make food dearer because there will be a monopoly on the products, so to speak.

The out of town shopping centres and access to convenience stores were mentioned. There is a school of thought that the out of town shopping centres, whether Aldi, Lidl, Tesco, Supervalu or others, have managed to keep the prices down. In many convenience shops, the prices are very high, particularly the prices of the Giffen goods — the staples, namely, bread, milk and so on. Often the out of centre brings prices down.

Ms Deane mentioned stale bread. I went to boarding school in a place called Ballyfin outside Portlaoise. We never had fresh bread for the very reasons that if we did, we would eat too much of it. We always got stale bread so when Ms Deane mentioned it, it certainly rang a bell with me. One of the concerns I have is that with the advent of convenience foods, there is the difficulty of obesity. It is covered by national food and nutrition policy. We are all familiar with the obesity issue but I do not think we are doing much about it. Convenience foods are so handy when couples are working. It is much easier to put the convenience food, the Nutella or the Mars Bar, on the bread. In the past couple of weeks I came across a strange case of peer pressure in regard to food. A school child who brought his mother's brown bread for lunch decided he would no longer bring it because, although he liked it, the other children slagged him for not bringing white sliced pan, which was the David Beckham or Nike of bread or a bag of Tayto. This is worrying.

The suggestion was made in other committees that we should perhaps incorporate these concepts in television soap operas. The old expression "manners maketh the man" comes to mind. It is not hip for young people to like traditional things. Like all committee members I like to consider myself young but there is a big generation gap, of which we are often unaware, even between those in their mid-20s and young children.

Chairman

With the agreement of members I will ask for a reply to Deputy Timmins because he has to leave to attend another meeting. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Dunphy

I cannot remember all the points the Deputy made but one or two of them stuck out. From where I work, there is a world of difference between experiencing stale bread in a boarding school and stale bread as part of one's daily diet. I do not get the point here. Stale bread in a boarding school is a totally different world from the one in which I work. That notion is so off I just cannot cope with it.

The other point related to CAP reform. Although I am not an agricultural expert I have spoken to people involved in the European food bank. I understood the purpose of CAP reform was to try and give an element of security to food stocks in post-war Europe. By having a food bank, Europe would never face food shortages. Over the years that has had effects and consequences on the price of food. It also interfered with food stocks on world markets, especially food production in developing countries and economies.

It is a complicated question to start unpicking here but one of the outcomes of reforming the CAP was that in 1987 the EU agreed that foods in intervention could be released into the voluntary sector to support voluntary organisations who had a food aspect to their activities or programme. This provided an important safety net to voluntary organisations dealing with people suffering food hunger across Europe.

The planned elimination of intervention stocks in an expanded Europe gives rise to the question of what we will do with the increasing numbers of European citizens experiencing hunger. Heretofore, there was some form of safety net in terms of CAP stocks of beef, butter, olive oil, cereals and rice. These stocks were released in an ordered way to the voluntary sector to try and keep some balance around the growing divide that has emerged. In a post-CAP reform Europe the safety net of tens of thousands of tonnes of food that was previously available will not be there. Along with my colleagues in food banks across Europe, I wonder what other safety mechanisms can be put in place in an enlarged Europe. In this regard I am particularly concerned about Eastern Europe. I do not recall the other points made by Deputy Timmins.

Ms Deane

I will pick up from there and deal briefly with the comment about stale bread. We are living in a society which has the second highest child poverty statistics among the previous 15 member states of the European Union. A substantial number of children go to school without breakfast. It is not a question of bread being stale, there is none. This impacts on their ability to learn. Benefit from the school system is also significantly impaired which leads to intergenerational poverty. These children often do not complete second level education but leave school early and end up in low paid jobs. They do not contribute to the economy with the obvious effects that brings. We will put the issue of stale bread to bed.

The second point related to shopping centres. There is a rash of them, including the LIDLs and ALDIs, but there are often a great deal of four-wheel-drives in the car parks. The people who live in food deserts — I speak on behalf of 8,500 members in the Society of St. Vincent de Paul — particularly in west Dublin do not have many four-wheel-drives to go to ALDI in Blanchardstown or the very good one near Athlone. They just do not do that. These people live in food deserts which means they live in isolation. They do not have cars. For young parents with children, getting to the Square in Tallaght may be only a weekly event. They do not have the choice. They have to go to their local shop.

I was recently in a Traveller pre-school in Jobstown. The nearest shop was basically a shanty building, a steel container with poor quality and choice of food and very high prices. That is the population segment we are trying to talk to the committee about in a meaningful way. They are the people who do not have choices to go to where it is cheap. In many cases they have to go to the local shop which possibly does not offer the best dietary choices and it will not be the best value for money.

Mr. Walsh

Deputy Timmins' point about peer pressure and convenience foods is a good one. We all see how important is the social dimension of foods. People on low incomes are not immune to that either. In one sense they are also caught up in that movement but they do not have the resources to allow them to participate like other groups. The same demands are coming from their children. As the Deputy said, they are trying to give their children the same living standard other people have but they do not have the same level of resources.

The point about school was very interesting. One of our suggestions is to have a universal school meals scheme, which would help remove the stigma around school meals. If we take that out of the equation every child would get something to eat. Some of them may be asked to pay for it and others may not but that can be handled in a way that is not transparent. That way they are all in the same boat. This could address the area of peer pressure, which was rightly identified.

On the issue of CAP reform and GM foods, in one sense it is not a question of needing more food, but better distribution of the food we have. GM products would give us more food but I do not know if that is what we need. The CAP gave us more food but we had to find something to do with it. We did not have the right food. It is about having affordable food and getting it to the people who really need it most. Regional markets and food co-operatives can play a role in breaking the kind of crazy cycle we currently have in the food system, where we are producing foods that are not good. It would allow people on low incomes to access good quality foods at an affordable price.

Out of town shopping centres are good if one has access to them. The market is being segmented and those who do not have transport are being left behind. Shopping centres are undermining the local shops which are then becoming more expensive and some people are so desperate they have no chance of getting away from them. The Deputy identified developing market trends very well.

Deputy Timmins

Ms Deane wished to put the matter of stale bread to bed. I do not want to get bogged down in it but there is a very strong correlation between the stale bread in boarding school and the parent Ms Deane met, which is one of affordability. Like the parent, the school authorities could not afford the bread, which is why stale bread was distributed.

The universal school scheme is a good idea, as was the milk scheme, and people would be supportive of it. My final concern is something I had not thought of but the point is well made by Ms Deane. Perhaps it has been done with regard to the food deserts, an example of which is the lock-up shop in Jobstown. It might be an idea to make a submission to the spatial strategy section of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to ask it to provide for commercial areas in the planning guidelines, in addition to those outlined for residential use.

Deputy Upton

I thank the delegates for an interesting presentation and also congratulate them on the more substantive document the committee was presented with earlier. It is detailed and I welcome it and support the main points it makes.

On the matter of intervention food, I appreciate that this was both valuable and useful, but there is a wider social dimension to this. I do not believe it is satisfactory that we should depend on intervention to put food on the table for people who are in the poverty trap. There are knock-on effects concerning food put into intervention in the first place, such as the subsidy issue. It is a major international concern, apart from the national aspect in which we are interested. For a long time after I was initially elected, I fought hard to try to get some intervention, meat in particular, for a group in my own constituency. I found it draining just to get that organised although I appreciated very much the value of it at the time. However, it is a much wider debate.

I wish to return to the issue of obesity. It is predominately associated with the lower income groups. This is due either to lack of money, which I believe to be primarily the cause, but linked into that is a general lack of awareness about food dietary habits. I would like the views of the delegates as to how this may be put right. There is also a lack of cooking skills, to do with the practical business of how to cook a nutritious meal that is not expensive. We who know about these matters talk knowledgeably about calories, proteins and carbohydrates in one's diet. If one undertook a little survey in the street the number of people who could say what that means in real nutritional terms would be minute. Is there not some way of simplifying this, of making the information available without causing confusion, about the number of calories or whether there are trans-fats or whatever? There is a large gap in terms of dietary knowledge and in getting this across to those who most need to know about it, and in terms of the cooking skills that should be commonly available.

The community initiatives are important. Related to that I wish to comment on the food banking issue. The second harvest idea is very good and perhaps we can learn from what is done in the United States. The delegates may tell me if my thinking is correct on the situation as regards food banking in Ireland. Much of what is available for banking includes highly-processed foods. They are, for example, dry products with a long shelf life. One seldom finds fruit and vegetables, which should be an important core part of the diet. We are rightly advised by the Department of Health and Children to eat five portions of fruit and vegetables every day. How is this to be done if one does not appreciate their value and if one cannot afford them? Relatively speaking, a mother who is shopping for her family of five or whatever will try to buy something that goes further.

The cost of food and vegetables and their availability should be examined. One of the issues I have raised in the past, and raise again now, is that fruit and vegetables should be heavily subsidised as regards school meals. I wholeheartedly support the universal school meal system. That is at the heart of the issue. In parts of my constituency I am aware of certain schools that have such a facility available to them. They always relate to me how important it is for those children who simply do not have a breakfast before leaving the house in the morning. They provide a minimalist breakfast and the teachers say how they notice the difference in the children's attention span and ability to cope. However, there is a stigma attached, with some children getting a free breakfast and so on while others are not. The universal system would take care of that problem and I have no difficulty in supporting it.

An issue is mentioned in this document about which I am concerned, although for somewhat different reasons. I understand it recommends that there should be a Minister or a Minister of State with responsibility for food and nutrition. I have always argued that there should be ministerial responsibility just for food. Perhaps that could be expanded on, and I agree that nutrition is important. However, the line Department must then be agreed on. We should look at how that parallels with the EU Commission. If we could have someone responsible for food safety, public health and consumer affairs, that would take account of the food issue, the public health and health promotion aspect. The consumer affairs aspect would review value for money issues. This requires that someone should be selected who would pull together all those aspects and structure them as one major issue. Until there is someone to drive that agenda, with sole responsibility within the general ambit, there will always be links between food, poverty and obesity. This is something that could be addressed. Ideally, it should form an important aspect of a core junior ministry that could also relate to Europe.

I appreciate what Ms Deane said about access to shops and food. I have in mind a particular part of my constituency where there is a large and increasing population with one small corner shop, a poor bus service and very little infrastructure. There is no access to the one supermarket that is relatively near and conditions are extremely difficult. I cannot make any commentary as to what prices are like in the shop. I have no idea about that. However, it is a monopoly type situation, with no competition. There is just one supermarket in the broader area and only yesterday people were telling me about the lack of facilities there. Again, there is a need for a broader policy view as to how that might be addressed. When a new development is taking place it is important that the necessary infrastructure is put in place, not just houses, apartments or flats, but all the other supports that give people access to the facilities they require, including food.

Deputy Ferris

I welcome members of the delegation and compliment them on their presentation. I am greatly concerned with aspects of the presentation, in particular that there is food poverty and that it affects so many people. My first question is concerned with the fact that no matter what policies are in place, unless economic poverty is addressed in a proactive way the enormity of the problems surrounding access, distribution or whatever, will not be alleviated. By common consent it is acknowledged that production is not the problem. Distribution and access are problems, but the overriding one is affordability. For those of us who work with the public in our various constituencies, it is easy to see the effects of food poverty. We experience it every week in clinics in our constituencies. It is a growing problem. In this regard I dispute the 5% statistic mentioned and the 200,000 people affected by food poverty. The figure is much larger.

When one speaks of nutrition one is talking about vegetables and a proper diet, but in the big population centres where there is much unemployment, with families on low incomes people are existing on the cheapest food they can buy, which, for a start, is not nutritious. Many vegetables are priced outside the reach of the ordinary low income family, not to mention the unemployed, the Travellers and the homeless. As a public representative it is frustrating to experience, on a weekly basis, the wrongs of inequality in our society. Unless we deal with the reasons behind them, our policies will not have any effect. We can have policies on paper but it is their implementation that will determine whether we can tackle this problem.

The pretext of introducing GM foods was that there is a food shortage in the world, which is not the case. GM foods are being introduced to control the food process. I am thinking of companies like Monsanto and the lie surrounding the presentation of its position. The fact that it introduced terminator seeds is all about control.

Some 20% of fish consumed emanates from fish farms and by 2030 that figure will be 70% if current trends continue, yet the price of fish is getting further away from the reach of low income, decent, working-class people. That is the reality.

I read about access and availability in the representatives' programme. It refers to a strategy to tackle food poverty among low income groups and redistributing resources through policies which would reduce unemployment, provide adequate housing, ensure an equitable health care and education system and provide an adequate income. The guilt for those inequities lies with those who regulate the system, that is, the Government. We can make a good presentation in terms of what should be done but the reality is that until we move towards basic equality we will not address these problems.

I thank you for your contribution. Every week I meet old-age people on non-contributory pensions many of whom, unless they have family support, are malnourished. They are unable to afford a nutritious diet that complements their age. We see the effects of that on the children of the unemployed.

The delegation made the point that low income families spend a higher percentage of their income on food. I agree. It is easier to spend more when there is very little. For example it is far easier and cheaper to take children to McDonald's, where for €4 or €5 they can fill themselves up on junk food.

There is a surplus of food in the world. The delegation made reference to the beef and butter mountains that were distributed to various local bodies at the time, which provided a fantastic service. They were distributed in that way because it cost the people who controlled them too much to store them. The members of the delegation are doing a fantastic job and making a major effort but they are not getting the support necessary to deal with the enormity of the problems we all face.

Deputy Carty

I, too, welcome the members of the delegation and compliment them on a concise document which is easy to read. I wish other bodies would do the same when they send voluminous material to the committee. I apologise for missing part of the delegation's presentation.

Two points in the presentation document deal with health education and community projects. Of those, the education aspect is the most important. We must go back to the basics in terms of education and to the time when cookery classes and so on were held. That is essential because one can buy good cuts of meat at a reasonable price that would be adequate for families if cooked properly. Unfortunately, that practice appears to have diminished over the past decade and a half. Cookery classes could be held in the evenings under the auspices of community projects where halls could be made available to communities. That would be a practical step in alleviating the problem.

Deputy Wilkinson

I welcome the members of the delegation and thank them for their presentation. The extent of this problem is amazing. Ireland is quickly moving up the obesity league but it is clear from this presentation that there is a huge contradiction in this area.

I have to agree with the speakers who referred to the lack of cooking — I do not mean cooking facilities — in the home, which has been replaced by the use of the microwave. Many people, regardless of income, run through the supermarket and pick up something they can cook in the microwave but the quality and nutritional value of that food, regardless of what it states on the label, is questionable.

Poverty only arises in circumstances where there is lack of food, although I know many of the representatives would not agree with that. On a recent trip abroad I had occasion to see the effects of real poverty and lack of food at first hand. It was frightening and it has left a mark.

Members of the delegation referred to the situation regarding the CAP. I am not saying everything is fine in that regard but it is interesting to discover what a producer here gets for a product and the price at which it is sold on the supermarket shelf. The gap should be addressed. Many producers who go out of business on a daily basis — farm numbers are falling sharply — would not be able to produce at all were it not for subsidies. I am not using that as an excuse for food not getting to people who need it but it is a fact.

I mentioned obesity earlier. The condition of children from good income families due to lack of eating proper food, which is available to them, is appalling.

On the expanding Europe and what will happen with more people living on the bread-line, eastern Europeans have a healthier regard for nutritious food. They produce and cook a lot of food at home. It is a different culture but some of us would envy the figures of some eastern Europeans. That is as a result of eating good food but it is shocking that in a country like Ireland, which has almost 96% employment, some children do not have enough food. When one visits a country where 80% of the population live in dire poverty, and hunger and disease are at frightening levels, one can only ask if we have a problem here.

I do not wish to minimise what the members of the delegation have said. I respect it and know it to be true. Can they put a figure on the number of children who do not have enough proper food to eat every day?

Senator Coonan

I welcome members of the delegation and thank them for making their presentation to the committee. I have some difficulties with the presentation with which I will deal in a general way.

I support the Chairman's words about Deputy Timmins and his role here and wish him well in his future portfolio.

It is very upsetting when one thinks of Ireland today that there are 200,000 people experiencing food poverty. That must be a shock to us all. Other speakers have mentioned food production. This country is primarily a food producer but over 90% of the food produced is exported and generates significant wealth. Recent figures show that over 5 million extra gallons of milk were produced here before the end of the year, for which the farming community will pay a penalty of €5 million, although there are three to four months left in the production season. Food production is not the problem. The farmers producing top quality meat protest at the price they get which is less than €2 per kilo of lamb. By comparison the price of the same meat in a butcher's shop, a supermarket or a restaurant shows that there is a rip-off culture here. On the Continent one can have an excellent steak dinner for less than €20.

Some of the points made by the visitors would be funny if the problem were not so serious. There is talk about cooking lessons but nobody in this country cooks. Nobody can afford to cook because anybody with a mortgage requires two incomes to continue to live here. This is part of my problem with this presentation. It is beautifully put in lovely language but lacks short sharp proposals and the straight talking needed to deal with the problem of why the people who are poor are suffering, why those on social welfare do not receive adequate funding or adequate training in managing their resources and help when they need it, or why they are coralled into housing estates. A recent study showed that there were not enough houses, that the density must be increased but no other facilities are provided for playing, eating or shopping.

We are turning a blind eye to these issues. I expect people like these visitors to make points in their presentation that hurt, to say what is true and what is not happening. There was a bit of crossfire between Deputy Timmins and CROSSCARE when they spoke about stale bread in boarding schools. Nobody stricken with poverty is going to boarding school. That has nothing to do with the issue. Anyone who can afford to go to boarding school can afford a decent meal and is not in the poverty league. We should be tackling the issues.

The visitors spoke about diets and dietary knowledge. Two or three diets are recommended every day of the week. One food company can say a food is bad for one and another can contradict that and come up with another one. They also mentioned the humble spud, the potato which kept people here alive for many years. Many were reared on potatoes, butter and milk. I would prefer more straight talking on this problem. I thank the visitors for their presentation but I have difficulties with it from that point of view. They talk about food co-ops or markets. They should deal with bureaucracy. For example, a farmer is not allowed to sell his meat because he must deal with very stringent conditions. The beef and other food produced here are probably the best in the world. It is the safest and most regulated, yet who knows what one is eating in a McDonald's burger? Who knows where the beef one eats in a hotel comes from? That can come in from Argentina or anywhere else where the same food safety issues do not apply. There is a problem but it must be dealt with in a more straightforward way.

Chairman

In fairness to the delegation I do not think anyone mentioned stale bread.

Ms Deane

I did.

Chairman

Maybe Ms Deane did but we can deal with that later. The next speaker is Deputy Stanton and I wish him well in his new portfolio as Fine Gael spokesperson on social, community and family affairs. This discussion will be very relevant to his new portfolio.

Deputy Stanton

I apologise for being late but I was held up. Most of the questions that interest me have been asked. My colleague raised the issue of both parents working and not having time to cook or who eat and watching television and so on, which is connected with the problem of latchkey kids. That lifestyle seems to be growing. Does the delegation have a comment on that?

Has it research on the nutrition and food of single older men? Do they look after themselves or should we be worried about them? Possibly in that area depression and alcohol use and abuse are problems. These factors are related and it is not simply a matter of producing food. The presentation mentions that 200,000 people, 5% of the population, are affected. Are there any longitudinal studies on that and if so could the delegation give us some information on the trends over the past 15 or 20 years? Has it been able to make projections in the event of the social norms of today continuing?

I was a teacher for several years and know the extent of the problem of children coming into school without having had anything to eat and providing them with something. They cannot concentrate and they feel ashamed. There are many issues behind that. Does the delegation have a break-down of the numbers of children involved? Universal school meals might be the ideal way to deal with this but the logistics of that in many schools would be difficult because they are not equipped or built to provide meals if they are cooked on site. If the meals are brought in how many meals would be involved? I would like to tease out what the delegation means by universal provision. If the problem is not significant is there another way of dealing with it by focusing on the children who need the help in a discreet way? Many principals do this because they know the children involved. They do it quietly and effectively, and nobody else knows about it. Very often the agencies help out in that too.

How important is it that young people, especially boys, are taught to cook substantial nutritious meals? I recall some primary schools held cookery classes. They taught the girls as well but often the boys did not have a clue how to cook and they had great fun with it. I recall visiting a school where the boys had their aprons on and were running around with flour and so on, having a great time but learning a valuable skill at the same time.

Senator Scanlon

I welcome the delegation. The presentation was interesting although some of the facts are shocking. I agree with Deputy Carty. I am a member of the Society of St. Vincent de Paul in my area. Several years ago we ran courses for families on low incomes. These courses covered topics such as home management, financial management and cookery, and had a major benefit for the families. While we all handle money, even in this business some of us handle it well and some do not. The financial management course was very effective. The cheaper cuts of meat have more nutritional value than the most expensive cuts. Part of the problem is that people do not know how to cook this meat. While it takes more time meat can be cooked much more quickly today than was the case when we were younger.

Following on from the point about children who go to school hungry, the Society of St. Vincent de Paul in Dublin started a school breakfast programme in the inner city, which was very effective and successful. In those areas, where the truancy rate was high, it made a tremendous difference to the children in getting them to attend school and pay attention when there. I agree with Deputy Carty that it goes back to education. While education may not be the answer to all problems, in my experience it has made a tremendous difference to many people on low incomes.

Chairman

I apologise to the witnesses for bringing in more speakers. Every time I thought they were finished, more speakers offered.

Ms Deane

I will deal with school meals, which was raised by a few members of the committee. I possibly have some good news. However fragmented and piecemeal it may be, the service exists as a current policy and element of how the State does its business. What we would like considered and consolidated is the review that took place by the Department of Social and Family Affairs about a year and a half ago. A list of recommendations exists and the key one is that a school food programme be established forthwith, given to a particular agency and driven at a strategic level. That is what is missing. Different Departments and agencies are involved and are just not hitting the spot.

Rather than commenting on specifics concerning whether schools have kitchens, if a really serious strategic effort was made to deal with school meals we would be in a different place in a short number of years and the reduction in health inequalities would be easy to prove. I will not say too much except that the elected members could lobby for this. It exists in theory and is called the school food programme. We all want to see it sooner rather than later. I will let my colleagues deal with the other questions.

Mr. Dunphy

A number of issues have come up and it is hard to keep track of them all. Our elected friend asked us to talk straight and put it on the table. This report contains recommendations about providing people with cookery skills, starting in the school curriculum. We should integrate cooking skills and dietary information into the educational curriculum. We are aware that an educational deficit exists and we must start addressing it at primary level. Members of the committee are the legislators, not us. It is our job to tell elected representatives that a very significant minority of people suffer from hunger on a daily basis.

If an issue exists over whether it is possible to set up a local market, for example, one of the responses would be to get local community initiatives going, which would need support both locally and regionally. Let us stop saying people cannot cook, that they do not know how to stuff a lamb's heart and cook it in the oven, or cannot buy rump steak or shin beef because they do not know how to cook it. In one sense that is true. We have lost much of the traditional cookery skills we might have handed down such as throwing in half a packet of barley. I accept that is true.

Society has changed. In one sense we must reconnect with celebrating food, not as some kind of poverty response that by buying cheaper meat people can bring up their children in a healthier way, which would be an outcome. However, it is about doing that without stigmatising it. We should not suggest people buy a few legs of shin beef that the butcher normally throws out and use that to feed their children. It is almost like taking food away from the fancy television programmes with people like Darina Allen and Nigella Lawson. We should take it back into the community where it belongs and celebrate food as a communal experience. We all need to eat food. We need to stop packaging it as if we are trying to teach poor people to cook better and all this will be resolved in some way.

However, this requires from politicians, such as members of the committee, acknowledgement of food poverty in Ireland. As Deputy Ferris said, it is about equity and proper economic equality. However, while we are waiting for Nirvana, let us have some real policies delivered locally that might address the food poverty issue. We will always have income inequality and will never resolve that issue. However, we are talking about significant numbers of the population who suffer food poverty on a daily basis.

We have identified them in this report. They are particularly elderly people who live alone. We are talking about psychiatrically ill people who live on their own. We are talking about children going to school hungry on their own every day. It is not about the double-income people who give their children a latchkey. We are talking about people whose children go to school hungry because they do not have enough income to put food on the table on a daily basis.

The first thing to do is to look at school meals. The Department has identified designated schools of disadvantage and supplies a small budget. Department officials tell volunteers to organise a breakfast club. The Government throws a few hundred thousand euro to the Society of St. Vincent de Paul to organise breakfast clubs. What we want is proper school provision for these children, starting with designated areas.

There is the straight talking without all the dancing we have been doing around the issue. The Government needs to put the money on the table for school meals, starting with the designated areas identified. It is pointless giving €6 million when €26 million is needed to get that programme operational. Then we can make an impact on whether children participate in school.

Mr. Walsh

On the question of the number of children affected, consistent poverty is the official Government measure of poverty. The point made was that potentially there could be more than that. However, we see that as a bottom line figure based on the official Government measure of poverty. Approximately 67,000 children are affected under that definition. In percentage terms more children than adults are in consistent poverty.

A question was asked about longitudinal dimension. A survey has tracked this problem. Consistent poverty had declined from approximately 20% to approximately 6%, which is coming close. At the same time relative income poverty is going in the opposite direction and the gap is widening. In one sense that issue will have to be addressed. We are still thinking about relative definitions of poverty, which are different from absolute poverty. Our concept of poverty is still based on a relative definition. It is about what society sees as nutrition, which changes over time. People's expectations also change. Once we recalculate consistent poverty it may start to move back up again as we account for new expectations about living standards. A warning sign exists about relative income poverty. At 22% we have the highest level of child poverty in Europe. We cannot ignore that fact, which will come home to roost at some stage in terms of the consumption dimension of poverty.

The projections are that unless we do something about relative income poverty it will not go away. Employment is hugely important in reducing consistent poverty. However, it does not address issues about people dependent on long-term welfare payments. The problem of the working poor is growing beyond all proportions. We have to examine the economic gap that exists.

The issue of dietary knowledge is a core one. The report states that people on lower incomes know what is healthy but are restricted physically and mentally by "a lack of financial resources". The report was prepared by Ms Sharon Friel, who has a public health background in the area of nutrition and works in the health promotion studies centre in NUI Galway. She argues in the report that those on lower incomes do not suffer from an information deficit. She claims that other constraints impinge on their ability to eat healthy foods. She makes points about food deserts, resources and other forms of pressure, such as peer pressure.

The report does not ignore the issue of dietary knowledge — it mentions the need for intervention, for example. Community nutritionists, who are doing some interesting work in this area, have told the Combat Poverty Agency that bigger problems need to be addressed before some of the agency's work can have a meaningful impact.

A member asked about older men. Mr. Jack Dunphy of CROSSCARE may wish to speak about his organisation's work with hostels, Meals on Wheels and vulnerable groups in society.

Mr. Dunphy

I represent CROSSCARE, a Dublin-based diocesan organisation with five food centres in the city. The organisation provides between 600 and 700 meals every day for vulnerable people, some of whom live less than ten minutes' walk from this building. Such people may not have the resources to put meals on the table for a variety of reasons, not all of which are related to income. They may suffer from psychiatric illness, live on their own or spend all day drinking. Society will always have to provide a level of support for such people. CROSSCARE provides night services for people who are chaotic. It ensures that they have the option, at least, of having a shower, changing their clothes, availing of a laundry service or eating more food. Our workers try to make human connections at that level. CROSSCARE is involved in the daily direct provision of food for people who cannot prepare meals for themselves.

An important aspect of this matter which was mentioned is that food is not just the intake of a certain level of calories and nutrition. All of us are familiar with the social aspects of food and eating and we enjoy many choices in that regard. We can make progress if we try to promote food as a celebratory occasion, if we reintroduce the education and celebration aspects of food and if local resource markets are held in the community once more. We will take a quantum leap if we organise such matters in a way that does not stigmatise. While it is true that this problem is related to the issue of poverty, there is another way of trying to solve it.

I assure Deputy Upton that food banking does not involve just dry long-life goods. A substantial variety of food is found at the food bank which operates in Dublin. A range of produce, including dairy products such as yoghurt, milk and butter, fresh fruit and fresh vegetables, such as carrots, is available.

Too much food is being produced by our society. CROSSCARE receives a tonne of carrots each week from a carrot producer in County Meath who grows exclusively for Superquinn. A certain proportion of carrots do not meet the Superquinn standard each day. The food bank acts as a place where such produce can be sent to be redistributed. Rather than being ploughed back into the field as fertiliser, the food in question is used as it should be used. That is the reality of food production with which we are all familiar. We know there are glitches in the system and too much food is sometimes produced.

The food bank acts as a form of clearing house by redistributing the perfectly good food it receives to organisations which can make good use of it. The system sounded somewhat grim by Deputy Upton's description of it, but I assure her that a huge variety of high value and high demand products are found in it. IBEC and the main industrialists can assist the development of regional food banks under the national anti-poverty strategy by supporting food banks under the corporate and social responsibility elements of the process into which they have bought. In that way, industry can help the community sector to deliver quality food where it is needed. I do not suggest that such assistance be provided in a stigmatising way, but rather in an enabling way that celebrates food. We need to move away from the "stale bread" syndrome.

Chairman

It is good that there are some caring producers in County Meath. We all welcome that.

Deputy Carty

Does the Chair want to give their addresses?

Ms Deane

While I do not want to be stark as we approach the end of the meeting, it should be pointed out that at least 6% of the population cannot engage with food in the celebratory way which was so eloquently highlighted by Mr. Dunphy. Such people cannot invite others into their homes to share food because that would be outside their range of social and cultural norms. They are, to use the jargon, "socially excluded" — they do not participate in the things we take for granted. That is a stark indictment of the distribution choices made in this country.

Although I accept that the national anti-poverty strategy is in place, the Office of Social Inclusion, in which many committed individuals in the Department of Social and Family Affairs work, is under-resourced. The Society of St. Vincent de Paul is not convinced that the office has been given adequate resources to pursue successfully the many policy initiatives it is charged with delivering. There is little evidence of a joint approach on the part of Departments such as the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Justice, Equality and Law Reform and Health and Children.

The school meals initiative is a typical example of an area in which a common approach is lacking. School principals who are employed by the Department of Education and Science cannot prioritise the scheme or incentivise their staff to get involved in it because they are over-worked. The Department of Social and Family Affairs has money to give away — the €6 million which it allocated last year was not all used. That is not joined-up government. We want to see outcomes and improvements in that regard.

There is a need for leadership. Addressing the substantial problem of food poverty should be a priority. As Mr. Walsh said, it will not go away. Income inequality and relative poverty are increasing. All members of the committee are needed to lobby within their parties to ensure that the Office of Social Inclusion is adequately resourced. The key policy instruments and schemes which are in place need to be consolidated and built on so that we can see proper outcomes.

Mr. Walsh

I would like to wrap up by speaking about how the committee can make progress in this area. Members have spoken about tangible actions. The matters contained in the Combat Poverty Agency's pre-budget submission on welfare are tangible. Food and agriculture have played a minimal role in the national anti-poverty strategy. They are the missing elements. The committee has an opportunity, in the areas of food and agriculture, which are within its remit, to champion such matters as poverty issues. It would be great if certain interests, such as the Department of Agriculture and Food, could clearly hear members of the committee saying that food is a poverty issue. The issue should be brought out of homes and mentioned in public. The committee's insights are valuable, but they are not part of the public's awareness of the debate on poverty. Members of the committee are in the best position to take advantage of the opportunity to pursue these issues.

Deputy Wilkinson

I do not want to start another debate, but simply to state that the part played by the abuse of alcohol in this country's poverty problems has not been addressed.

Deputy Ferris

Many sectors of society, such as elderly people, young people, families with low incomes, Travellers, unemployed people and people with psychiatric problems, have been mentioned. We can try to make funding available, perhaps encouraging Government agencies to do so and take an interest. There is a sector within communities of people who have pride. No matter what one makes available, if they have that pride in themselves, they will not beg. The problem of low-income families cannot be divorced from poverty; the two go hand in hand. We must bridge that massive gap. A point was made regarding the level of food poverty coming down while the level of income poverty is going up. If relative income poverty rate is increasing, the level of food poverty will automatically rise.

Deputy Upton

While I accept that this issue is about poverty, it is not simply a matter of dishing out more money. Poverty has a much wider definition. Interestingly, two of the five policy initiatives relate to gaps in dietary knowledge and increasing the knowledge base. There is a big information deficit which one may call what one will. I am curious that no one counted in how such joined-up thinking might be encouraged by way of the recommendation, which was for a food safety and nutrition post for a Minister of State. The representatives have rightly identified seven or eight Departments which should have a role in this matter, including the Department of Agriculture and Food, the Department of Health and Children, and the Department of Education and Science. I would like to hear their comments on this. It is included in the report as one of the recommendations, of which the overriding one seems to be that there should be someone to drive the agenda forward.

Chairman

I also want to raise a matter to which Ms Deane referred. Many people living in urban areas are dependent on the corner shop, since there are no superstores. There is a bigger problem in rural Ireland — one organisation represented covers many of the rural areas that I represent — where there are no shops at all. This is a serious problem for elderly people as one cannot get even a loaf of bread or a bottle of milk while transport is not available. Many areas are severely affected. Perhaps Mr. Walsh will comment on the last few supplementary questions as necessary.

Mr. Walsh

The idea of having a Minister of State is linked to a few other matters such as the steering committee and Departments having appropriate partnerships at national and local level to which there would be a political dimension. The Chairman may already have raised the issue of there being a false division of responsibility between the Department of Health and Children and others. Recently a new consumer strategy group was set up by the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, to which we made a submission. It coves the issue of food. While a new group is examining the issue of obesity, responsibility is fragmented. There is a food advisory committee at the Department of Agriculture and Food. There is a growing movement to try to bring them together which we support, encouraging a unified line of responsibility on the matter. It is an organisational issue for the Government.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Walsh, Ms Deane and Mr. Dunphy and their respective organisations for attending today. They are doing tremendous work and deserve all possible help and assistance. This committee will not be found wanting in that regard. Are members agreed that a copy of the report should be forwarded to the Minister for Agriculture and Food, the Minister for Social, Community and Family Affairs, the Minister for Health and Children and the Minister for Education and Science for appropriate comment in order that the committee can follow up on their views when received? Agreed.

There is no further business to transact.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.35 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 20 October 2004.