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JOINT COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE AND FOOD debate -
Wednesday, 20 Oct 2004

Scrutiny of EU Proposals.

Are the minutes of the meeting of 13 October 2004, which have been circulated, agreed? Agreed.

I welcome Mr. Andy Irving, principal officer, Mr. Liam Walsh, assistant principal, Ms Paula Barry-Walsh, senior superintendent veterinary inspector, Department of Agriculture and Food, Ms Siobhán O'Regan, principal officer, Mr. Séamus Maguire, assistant principal, Department of Health and Children, and Mr. Peter Whelan, director of services, Food Safety Authority of Ireland.

We meet today to discuss the following EU proposal: COM 2003/577, proposal for the regulation by the European Parliament of the Council laying down specific rules for the organisation of official controls on products of animal origin intended for human consumption. The proposal is part of a wider package of food hygiene proposals from the European Commission.

Before asking Mr. Irving to commence his opening remarks, I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not extend to them. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I invite Mr. Irving to make his opening remarks.

Mr. Andy Irving

At the request of the secretary of the committee, we are making a presentation on the hygiene package as a whole rather than on the specific regulation. The background to this hygiene package and these regulations is that in its White Paper on Food Safety of 12 January 2000, the European Commission set out its plans for a proactive new food policy to modernise existing legislation into a more coherent and transparent set of rules, reinforcing controls from the farm to the table and increasing the capability of the scientific advice system so as to guarantee a high level of human health and consumer protection.

The strategic priorities of the White Paper were to create a European food safety authority; to consistently implement a farm to table approach in food legislation; and to establish the principles that feed and food operators should have primary responsibility for food safety, that member states need to ensure surveillance and control of these operators, and that the Commission shall test the performance of member states' control capacities and capabilities through audits and inspections.

In July 2000 the EU Commission published proposals to consolidate, update and simplify existing Community legislation on food hygiene. For the most part, many of the proposals already existed in EU legislation, which had evolved in a more fragmented sector by sector way over the previous 30 years or so. In all, 17 directives dating back to 1964 were to be revised under five proposals, which became known as the hygiene package. These related to hygiene of foodstuffs on page 1; specific rules for food and animal origin on page 2; official control on products of animals origin intended for human consumption on page 3; animal health rules governing the production, placing on the market and importation of products of animal origin intended for human consumption on page 4; and repeal or amendment of certain directives regarding food hygiene on page 5. The annex to my statement gives fuller details of those items.

The basic principles underlying the Commission's proposals were as follows. The first principle is the introduction of a "farm to table" approach towards food hygiene policy. Up to this there was no systematic and all embracing hygiene regime covering all food in all sectors, but rather a patchwork of rules for specific sectors and types of produce with gaps notably at primary production level.

A second important principle underpinning these proposals is that food business operators are given primary responsibility for the safety of the food they produce. This principle is facilitated by the development of hazard analysis and critical control point, HACCP, systems and is in line with internationally accepted procedures. HACCP systems can take into account the variety of different operations, both in terms of products and scale and provide operators with the flexibility to adapt "own checks" control systems to the specific requirements of their operation. Although it was proposed that general hygiene rules would be extended to cover hygiene at farm level and would operate on a risk analysis basis, it was not proposed at this time to have a formal implementation of HACCP at the primary production level.

A third key principle is the traceability of all food and food ingredients. To achieve this, the registration of all food businesses and appropriate record keeping was proposed. Producers would also have to put in place procedures for the withdrawal of product from the market in the event of it presenting a serious risk to consumer health. The proposals recognised the need for flexibility in a number of areas, particularly regarding traditional food production, food businesses in remote islands, mountain areas and other geographically isolated areas, and the implementation of HACCP systems in small and medium enterprises.

Council agreement was reached during Ireland's Presidency of the European Union in April 2004 on the hygiene package with the exclusion of H4, which was finalised in 2002. Annex 1 gives a summary of the hygiene package. On the second page of the annex, reference is made to the feed and food regulation and the feed hygiene regulation. These were also agreed during the Irish Presidency. The reason for including these in our discussions is that while H3 sets out the official controls that apply to the production of animal products only, the regulation on official food and feed controls is an overarching regulation which provides for the carrying out of official controls at any of the stages of production, processing and distribution of feed or food and of animals and animal products. It also provides for the submission of a multi-annual control plan.

In essence, the hygiene package substituted a more simplified system of legislation for the production of safe food for the myriad of regulations that are currently in place. The parts of the package are cross-referenced to ensure all aspects of food safety are considered. The regulations cover a number of areas and the main issues include the following. All food and feed premises must be either registered or approved, from farms through to retail premises. While no specific requirements for registration exist, any existing list of registered premises may be used for the purposes of these regulations. As food of animal origin can present a more serious risk to consumers, such premises must be approved rather than registered.

The onus is on food business operators, FBOs, to make the application for either registration or approval but competent authorities must put procedures in place to allow FBOs to apply for approval of their premises. Approval may be given if establishments meet all the requirements of the regulations on foot of an on-site inspection. There is provision for conditional approval for up to six months under certain conditions provided there is no food hygiene risk. Provisions are also made for existing approved premises or premises, which did not previously require approval, to continue in operation until an inspection takes place. Once its premises are approved, a food business operator may market its products throughout the EU, which represents a change from what currently applies.

While all premises are included in these requirements, specific provision is made for small businesses, for establishments using traditional methods and for those operating in geographically constrained areas. A section on small businesses is contained and I will deal later with those derogations, etc. Member states must maintain up-to-date lists of approved establishments and make them available to other member states and to the public.

Food business operators must put in place, implement and maintain a permanent procedure or procedure based on the HACCP principals. This requirement does not apply to primary production, domestic preparation, storage, etc., of food for private consumption or the direct supply of small quantities of primary products to the final consumer or local retailer. Food business operators are to provide evidence of compliance to the competent authority. Detailed rules for implementation of the above are to be agreed on an EU-wide basis. As these regulations do not come into force until January 2006, there is time for those rules to be made yet.

While member states are to encourage the development of national guides to good practice for hygiene and for the application of HACCP principles, the guides themselves must be prepared by the business sector involved in consultation with parties who might be affected, including competent authorities, consumer groups, etc. This may be done under the aegis of a national standards institute. Member states then have to assess the guides to ensure they meet the requirements of the regulation and forward compliant guides to the European Commission.

Guides to good practice drawn up under existing Council Directive 93/43/EEC on the hygiene of foodstuffs shall continue to apply if compatible with the objectives of the hygiene package. Competent authorities are to include assessment of practices on HACCP in any audits carried out on premises. The direct supply by producers of small quantities of primary products to final consumers or local retail establishments directly supplying final consumers is excluded from the regulations. However, member states must establish rules under national law for such trade. The rules should ensure the achievement of the objectives of the regulations.

Derogations may be granted from the requirements of annex 2 of regulation 852/2004 for small businesses, particularly in respect of the HACCP requirements. That may be done at EU level, rather than national level. National measures may be introduced adapting the requirements of annex 2 of the regulation with the aim of enabling the continued use of traditional methods at all stages of the production, processing or distribution of food or accommodating the needs of food businesses situated in regions that are subject to special geographical constraints. The European Commission and other member states must be notified of any such measures. A procedure is in place for the acceptance or otherwise of the national measures, which cannot stand alone without approval.

I mentioned earlier that primary producers will be brought under food legislation in a systematic way for the first time. Such producers will be required to be registered. They will not have to meet any specific conditions to be registered, other than to apply for registration. I have mentioned that primary producers are excluded from the HACCP requirements. Specific hygiene requirements which are laid down will be included in guides to good hygiene practice for primary producers. However, certain primary producers of feed — those who produce feed on farms — will be required to implement a HACCP programme. The requirements apply to the transport, storage and handling of primary products at the place of production, the transport of live animals or products of plant origin and transport operations to deliver primary products from place of production to an establishment.

The main specific requirements which have to be met by operators are to keep facilities used in connection with primary production clean and, where necessary, disinfected; to keep clean and, where necessary, disinfect, equipment, containers, crates and vehicles; to ensure the cleanliness of animals going for slaughter; to ensure that staff handling foodstuffs are in good health and undergo training of health risks; to store and handle waste and hazardous substances to prevent contamination; to report suspected outbreaks of contagious diseases to the competent authority; to use feed additives, veterinary medicinal products, plant protection products and biocides correctly; and to keep records of the nature and origin of feed fed to animals, veterinary medicinal products or other treatments given to animals, the use of plant protection products and biocides, the occurrence of diseases or pests and the results of any relevant analyses carried out on samples taken from animals or plants.

The competent authority is charged with encouraging the development of national guides to good hygiene practice in the interests of such practice. Guides should be developed and disseminated by food business sectors in consultation with interested parties which may be substantially affected, such as competent authorities and consumer groups. The same procedure of approval also applies to the guides.

The issue of advance notification of slaughterhouse operators is a new one. Slaughterhouse operators may not accept animals for slaughter if they have not requested and received the relevant food safety information provided in the records kept by farmers at least 24 hours before the arrival of the animals at the slaughterhouse. A list of the relevant information is included in the regulation. There are derogations in certain circumstances from the need for the receipt of some of the information. However, some information must be given in respect of animals.

There are no major changes from the existing regulations relating to primary milk producers. Provision is made, however, for the use of raw milk of healthy animals from reactor herds in cheese that has a maturation of at least two months.

Training is another issue for farmers and food business operators, who must instruct or train food handlers in food hygiene issues relating to their work. They have to ensure that those involved in developing or maintaining HACCP systems or operating guides have adequate training. Operators must ensure that there is compliance with national legislation on training requirements for people working in certain food sectors. Competent authorities can appoint only those veterinarians who have passed a test, which must be arranged by the competent authority, on specific issues referred to in the regulation.

Veterinarians must undergo practical training for a probationary period of at least 200 hours. The training should refer particularly to the auditing of food safety management systems. Continuing education activities should also be provided where necessary. Veterinarians who are already appointed must have adequate knowledge of the subjects referred to in the regulation. Competent authorities can appoint only those official auxiliaries who have undergone and passed a specific test. Such people must prove they have at least 500 hours of theoretical training, as well as at least 400 hours of practical training covering specific issues listed in the regulation, if they are to be eligible. Auxiliaries who have already been appointed must have adequate knowledge of the subjects referred to in the regulation.

The regulations make feed and food business operators who import feed and food responsible for complying with the requirements of the regulations. There are no major changes in the requirements for the import of animal products. Such food must come from an approved establishment in an approved country and be accompanied by a veterinary certificate. Animal products must be imported through a border inspection post. The importer must give prior notification of import. Some 24 hours' notice of import is required under the existing regulations, but no time period is provided in the new regulations. It is a matter for the members states to decide.

The regulations also provide for the making of safeguard provisions if imports of particular products from certain countries might be a danger to public or animal health. In the case of imports of food and feed of non-animal origin, member states will have to designate particular points of entry which have access to appropriate control facilities for different types of feed and food. Importers will be required to give prior notification of such imports. The regulations set out the procedures for dealing with products which are rejected for import. Fees must be charged for imports of animal products regarding the inspections which are carried out. Minimum levels are laid down in the regulation. The fees may be charged for imports of other food and feed. If the minimum level is not charged, the method of calculation of the fee levels must be published.

Each competent authority must ensure that it has, or has access to, adequate laboratory capacity, suitably qualified staff, proper facilities and equipment. Controls may be delegated to laboratories which operate to the same standards as official laboratories, in which case the competent authority must audit the laboratories as necessary. The competent authority must designate laboratories that may conduct analysis of samples taken during official controls, but only to officially accredited laboratories. The accreditation may relate to individual tests or a group of tests. The EU community reference laboratories will be responsible for specific tasks for feed, food and animal health. Member states must designate one or more national reference laboratories for each community reference laboratory.

I have outlined the main provisions of the regulation, but I wish to speak about consultation and implementation. The Departments and the official agencies consulted widely while the proposals were under negotiation. We are satisfied that the regulations represent a balance between the need for food safety and the needs of food business operators. The hygiene package is a consolidation of existing controls, to a large degree, with some new additions. It should not have any significant impact on the competitiveness of the Irish food industry.

The Department of Agriculture and Food has undertaken a scoping exercise to identify how best to approach the implementation of the hygiene package before entering into discussions with other Departments and agencies. A number of Departments and agencies are involved, including the Department of Health and Children, the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources and the FSAI. It is essential to take a co-ordinated implementation approach to these regulations if food safety is to be ensured and the food industry is not to be unduly disrupted.

Further consultation with stakeholders is essential in the period leading up to the implementation of the hygiene package, especially as Ireland pressed for flexibility during the negotiation of the proposals. We intend to avail fully of the provisions in this area. Accordingly, we will consult with all interested parties with a view to ensuring that flexibility provisions are fully utilised to protect our food industry and traditional producers while avoiding compromising overall hygiene standards.

Mr. Irving, I understand your colleagues will participate in the question and answer session.

I apologise for being late. I missed the beginning of the presentation as I was held up at another meeting. I am grateful for the presentation and the documentation circulated to the committee. The information was set out very clearly. Overall, I welcome the proposal which co-ordinates, consolidates and simplifies because, previously, everything was piecemeal. The proposal will be welcomed by the industry and control agencies on the basis that it will make life simpler for everybody involved.

Throughout the submission, food business operators were mentioned. I take this to refer to proprietors of businesses, whether they are farmers or the owners of companies. Operators have substantial responsibilities in ensuring the implementation of the regulations. Was consideration given at any point to the need for access, if necessary, to a qualified food scientist who could offer professional advice? Is it instead the case that operators must find somebody themselves? In considering the need to have professional, technical advice available, I am thinking about the responsibility of small industries to ensure access to it at all times. While I do not expect that every small company will be in a position to engage the services of a food scientist, it is important to assure consumers that provision is made to ensure such companies have access to that kind of technical advice. It would have the effect of protecting companies.

A concern I have raised before involves the principles of hazard analysis and critical control point planning, which have been referred to a number of times. The underlying principles involved are laudable and positive. Having looked at hazard analysis and critical control point plans and programmes outlined in many hefty folders on food company shelves over the years, I wonder about the extent of the need for some of them. While it is not central to this legislation, does anybody consider it would be worthwhile to simplify hazard analysis and critical control point plans and return to basics? My fear is that there will be an obsession with paperwork and a lack of delivery on implementing the requirements of hazard analysis and critical control point plans. A one size fits all approach does not work in hazard analysis and critical control point planning. There is a tendency to consider that because one has a generic set of folders, a hazard analysis and critical control point plan is in place and the requirements of the law are being met. In that context, it is important to examine whether the process can be simplified to its key important points to avoid a scenario of total obsession with documentation.

I have raised previously the issue of those who offer advice on hazard analysis and critical control point plans. There are no specific qualifications for such people and anyone who wishes can mount a plaque outside an office to the effect that he or she is a consultant who can deliver a great deal of useful advice on hazard analysis and critical control point and draw up a plan. There is no basic requirement and nor is any authority or body responsible for ensuring that those people who offer such advice have a qualification. I am concerned for food industry operators who buy into this and have no way of knowing whether a consultant is suitably qualified. In the case of REPS, for example, the Department of Agriculture and Food holds a list which includes graduates with one of two or three basic qualifications, of which one is a bachelor's degree in agricultural science. There should be a minimum requirement and an organisation with responsibility for ensuring that those who offer and deliver hazard analysis and critical control point advice are suitably qualified to do so. While the matter is not central to the legislation under discussion, I would appreciate Mr. Irving's comments on it.

There is no requirement for hazard analysis and critical control point planning at primary level. While I appreciate the difficulty of having a hazard analysis and critical control point plan at this level, will Mr. Irving elaborate on the status specific hygiene requirements will have? Such requirements seem to be what is needed. Towards the end of the document submitted, reference is made to Community reference laboratories. Does Mr. Irving think we are suitably endowed in Ireland with such laboratories or a national reference laboratory which will fit the requirements or can such facilities be put in place by 2006, the date by which we must have them?

The provision of derogations and particular considerations for small food producers is welcome. In this area one size does not fit all and we must be realistic and practical and realise how important small producers are to the economy. I guess that into the future we will see more such producers developing and it will be increasingly important to have the supports in place to allow them to thrive and grow.

Before I call Deputy Crawford, I welcome him back to the committee of which he is a former member. I served with him on a previous committee for five years and I am aware that his knowledge of and interest in agriculture is significant. I welcome him as the Fine Gael spokesperson, in which capacity he takes over from Deputy Hayes.

I am afraid I come late to this discussion as I did not know about the meeting until two minutes before I arrived. I welcome the document we have received and, in principle, the idea of a structural regime. There are a few question marks, however, which hang over the area. Having supported the Punchestown provisions at a previous meeting, I must be very careful to avoid automatically supporting a document before I have studied it properly. I could be hung out five years later as the Chairman reminded me.

As a primary producer who is a dairy and livestock farmer, I worry most about competition. I have no problem with having to meet regulations to ensure our product is of the highest possible standard. As well as being producers, we are consumers as individuals and we must take that into account. Monaghan is among the counties with the highest poultry and pig production and we compete with imports from other countries, the manner of production of which one must question. The document before the committee features a short paragraph on the import regime. During my last period as a member of this committee, I was fortunate to travel with the Chairman and others to Chicago where we saw very clearly the differences in production methods with which we were competing. In Chicago, hormones, steroids and everything else were the order of the day. As one who worked at EU level when the ban on hormones was being introduced here, I agreed with the general principle of their disuse. While I tried to argue at that stage for the use of natural hormones, history has taken a different course. In addition, we must also contend with significant imports of cheaper chicken. Are these imports, which may be produced under cheaper regimes, produced to the same high standards as here? Is this issue monitored sufficiently by the European Union? In recent weeks, for example, a good producer in Northern Ireland lost out to competition from outside the European Union. People build up a certain amount of expertise and we must ensure goods are produced under similar conditions.

Will Mr. Irving spell out in detail what is meant by the term, "traditional food production"? I have examined the potential for on-farm production of goods such as goats' milk. I have travelled to the highlands of Scotland and other areas where regulations are different from those governing producers here. We must ensure we operate on a level playing field.

Costs for small industry have already increased due to more paperwork and the need to use outside personnel to advise on plans. This could force small businesses out of production. I am concerned that small slaughterhouses have suffered in recent years. I know of one slaughterhouse which was built to the specification of a veterinary inspector. The owner was later informed that it did not comply with the rules governing such buildings. It was impossible to obtain building specifications. Clear guidelines are required.

As regards primary producers, some poultry producers have been required to apply for EPA licences, while others have not been required to do so. The companies in question spent a large amount on this process. At a time when the industry is in a difficult economic position, every cost is significant. We produce poultry south of the Border and must compete with our colleagues north of the Border who are not even required to apply for planning permission. If the EU regulation can help harmonise the various regimes, I will welcome it. I am not opposed to planning but I want fair play.

It is important that specific hygiene requirements are made clear to primary producers. They must be made aware of the precise conditions they must meet. Many primary producers are jumping up and down with glee because of the change to a single payment which requires little paperwork. However, these proposals will increase paperwork.

It was stated that the requirements for paying milk producers will not be subject to major change and provision has been made for the use of raw milk of healthy animals from reactor herds to be used in cheese, etc. What are the reactors? Are they tuberculosis or brucellosis reactors? Are other diseases which are becoming more prevalent in herds also covered?

I apologise for being late. I welcome the delegation and thank it for the presentation. I give the proposed regulation a guarded welcome. Any process to improve the hygiene of food from farm to table is to be welcomed. I have a number of questions. It was stated producers will have to establish procedures for the withdrawal of a product from the market in the event of it presenting a serious risk to consumer health. What procedures are envisaged? Have they been defined? This provision will place the onus on the producer, who will have to follow established procedures to comply with this provision.

I welcome the provision that a derogation may be granted to small business. Regarding the cost of ensuring compliance with provisions on approved premises, is a mechanism envisaged to provide support for those who must meet the required standards?

It was stated that all primary producers must be registered and will not be required to meet any specific conditions in order to be registered other than to apply for registration. One would assume that a producer seeking registration would have to comply with certain conditions. Will the delegation address this matter?

Mr. Irving

The first issue raised with regard to primary producers was HACCP and the specific requirements which will replace the HACCP system. The regulation includes three or four pages of specific requirements. The guides to good hygiene practice, which are to be prepared by the sector in consultation with the competent authority — in this case, the Department, consumer groups, etc. — will deal with these aspects of the regulation. In many ways, therefore, the onus will be on producers to develop guidelines with which they will have to comply under these requirements. We must sign off on the guidelines and submit them to Brussels before they are approved. In effect, the producers will write their own guidelines in relation to the rules.

As regards conditions for registration, it will become illegal for a primary producer not to be registered. Once one is registered, one must comply with all the conditions set out in the regulations. While one is not required to do anything specific to get registered, it is illegal not to be registered and, once registered, one must comply with the conditions. Mr. Whelan will address the issue raised regarding the qualifications of those involved in the HACCP system.

Mr. Peter Whelan

Before I address that matter, Deputy Upton asked about access to scientific advice and technical information. The Food Safety Authority of Ireland has developed a number of fora, one of which is for small artisan producers. We have divided this forum into four separate groups dealing with product specific information. We have cross-agency working groups which include expertise from the Department of Agriculture and Food, the Food Safety Authority and the health boards, while local authority veterinary officers sit on different working groups and provide advice on small industry.

We also have a mollusc and shellfish safety committee, on which representatives of the fish industry, particularly the bivalve mollusc producers, sit around a table with regulators and the laboratory services who provide advice and guidance. We also have a retail forum where all the major multiples participate with the Food Safety Authority and other agencies. The food services forum provides another opportunity for large and small caterers to go through any problems they may have in HACCP enforcement or compliance with legislation.

We recently met the Food Safety Promotions Board and we discussed HACCP consultants with them. As was already stated, there is no requirement for HACCP consultants to have a particular qualification. On our website we list a number of trainers or consultants but we do not stand over that list; it is merely a list. We are looking at that question with the Food Safety Promotions Board. This board has decided to go to Excellence Ireland because it has a whole set of auditors in place who are qualified people. They test them and re-examine them every now and again so we thought they might have some system which would be of some service or they could look at what type of qualification or requirement would be needed for a HACCP consultant. That meeting has not yet taken place. It was really a search to see if there was something we could do in that area because we are hearing back all the time, particularly from environmental health officers and health boards, that there is a need for more expertise in regard to the people who are offering themselves as HACCP consultants and experts.

We have developed a national HACCP strategy to do something positive ourselves. That strategy engages the health boards with the industry. We decided to target different sectors and we started with hospitals, health board institutions and care centres. We then moved on to hotels and high risk butcher shops with raw and cooked meat. The next target group is now being discussed. That national HACCP strategy means there is some consistency and uniformity about the requirements in each of those sectors. We intend to continue the work with the restaurant and take-away sector and so on. They are the activities in regard to HACCP.

Everyone agrees it has become very complex and there is a big concentration on documentation and record keeping. We recently met with the Food Standards Agency which has tried to simplify that whole programme to what it calls the four Cs. These include cleaning, cooking and temperature control in an effort to try to reduce it down to the critical control points. The idea is that monitoring would focus on those areas rather than a whole raft of book work that would sit on a shelf. We are also looking at this area.

Mr. Irving

There was a specific query in regard to primary milk producers and diseases. A question was asked about the sale of milk from healthy animals in reactor herds.

Ms Paula Barry-Walsh

Provision is made for raw milk from healthy animals from reactor herds to be used in cheese, providing there is maturation of at least two months. That is only permitted in cases of brucellosis reactors. That was at the behest of the Greek delegation because they are still using vaccination against brucellosis which could lead to a positive reactor in some cases where the rest of the herd is not really a health problem at all.

There was another query in regard to traceability in recalls of food. We were asked about the procedures and concern was expressed about the onus being on the producer. There are very specific references to traceability and the need for recalls. However, while these are now written down and there is continuing discussion in Brussels at present about how recalls will take place, the actual fundamental requirement for a recall is not, in itself, new. Again, this is a simplification or a consolidation. The information that will be out there will assist producers in how to go about it. What constitutes a recall and how it should be carried out, the number of authorities that will have to be informed or involved and other such things are still a matter for discussion.

Mr. Irving

There was one other issue in regard to imports. Obviously, it is a very emotive issue. Import controls operate on an EU-wide basis. They are not operated on a national basis. The Food and Veterinary Office of the European Commission, which has its headquarters in Grange, is the authority delegated to review the controls on third country imports to Ireland. Any time there is a problem in particular countries they raise it and a decision is made in Brussels to ban imports, such as was the case with avian influenza and the like. Offices are located in the areas from which people import, including Asia, South America, North America and other places. A big control regime is in operation. One of the things we must recognise is that we are a big meat trading nation. We export 80% to 90% of our beef and if we want to take unilateral measures against certain countries we must be careful it does not compromise our own situation. We are much more dependent on our exports than other countries and we have to bear that in mind when we talk about competition because we are also competing in those same markets.

I welcome the witnesses and thank them for their presentation. Many small producers and cottage industries have voiced concerns at the amount of regulation being placed on them. Some primary producers have left the industry because of the regulation to which they were subjected. Regulations do not appear to be as strict in other countries. I refer specifically to street trading which is almost completely outlawed in this country, but it is still practised in some other European Union countries. There is great dissatisfaction among small producers about this issue. I am aware that negotiations are ongoing and the presentation outlined various discussions between countries. Producers would still contend there is not uniformity on this issue throughout the European Union. I would welcome comments on this point.

Most points have been covered. I thank Mr. Irving for his informative presentation. I note that the regulations appear to indicate a degree of satisfaction with the processes around milk production and so on. He also said that slaughterhouse operators may not accept animals for slaughter unless they have requested and received the relevant food safety information and the farmer's records at least 24 hours before the arrival of the animals. Does he refer to meat plants as well as the dwindling number of individual slaughterhouses that now remain? Has there been any level of engagement with the meat factories, if they are included? Does that initiative indicate some lack of satisfaction with the current regime in meat plants? I wonder how practical or how operable it is, however. Will every sheep, lamb or beast have to have a health certificate produced to the slaughterhouse before the animal arrives? Another question relates to primary producers. Is it the case that the lady down the bóithrín who produces 100 turkeys at Christmas and sells them to her neighbours will have to be registered as a primary producer? Does the provision cover everybody? People will be a little concerned if all food production activity must be registered. We all hoped for a period of less bureaucracy, paperwork and regulation in the agricultural sector.

I concur with what everybody else has said about artisan food producers. Mr. Irving obviously alluded to them under the small business heading. He referred to the direct supply by the producer of small quantities of primary products to the final consumer. What does he envisage being categorised as small quantities?

I welcome the presentations. Some of my questions have already been asked. One concerns the small slaughterhouse operators who cannot accept animals without receiving the relevant information 24 hours in advance. Many of them buy cattle at marts. What will happen to those who used to buy cattle in the morning and slaughter them in the evening?

While we all agree that we should produce products of the best quality, is beef imported into this country produced and packaged to the same specifications that obtain in Ireland? There is concern that some of the beef coming from Third World countries such as Argentina and Brazil may not be slaughtered to the same specifications as those in Ireland. What are the delegates views on that issue?

I also welcome the presentation. As I stated at a previous meeting, I recently met some farmers who were very concerned that their cattle had Johne's disease. The cattle were sent to the local factory but the farmers were concerned about what would happen the meat thereafter. Will the delegates advise us on this matter? There seems to be much secrecy about the disease and farmers do not know what they should do about it because they are receiving only €100 for the beef they sell.

Like Deputy Ó Fearghaíl, I am very concerned about the advance notification regulation that applies to slaughterhouse operators. Will this mean that a veterinary surgeon may have to inspect the animals on a farm before they are transported on a lorry to a slaughterhouse? Everybody here and every farmer is very concerned about this matter. I am concerned that if 24 hours notice is sought before the cattle arrive at the slaughterhouse, this may mean in reality that 36 hours notice will be required. Will the delegates enlighten us on this point?

Ms Barry-Walsh

The prior notification to the slaughterhouse operators was hotly debated. It is in the legislation. However, cognisance is taken of the different types of slaughterhouses. In other words, it is not unusual for both cattle and paperwork to arrive at the larger slaughterhouses 24 hours in advance. This lends itself to the new legislation. However, as one will see, derogations can be made in certain circumstances because the point was made that 24 hour notification and production of paperwork is not feasible in all cases. Such cases include those where animals are bought directly from the mart, where a culled ewe is being brought by itself on the morning or where farmers may be dispatching singleton animals to a slaughterhouse.

A working group in Brussels is considering the criteria in this area specifically. It has had two meetings so far and is trying to thrash out some of the details. I cannot provide the definitive outcome as the discussions are not finished. However, the possibility of a farmer being able to sign a self-declaration is being considered whereby he would not have to come in with his herd register and samples of the grain fed to the herd. He might be able to fill out in advance a document that would be provided in any case and which would contain such details as the foodstuffs on which the animals were fed, the registration numbers, etc. It would be pro forma and would contain nothing unusual. The farmer might have to confirm that he has a herd health register, whether animals were treated with antibiotics and whether withdrawal symptoms were observed. In some cases, it might be possible for the farmer to fax information without having to deliver it in person. This remains to be seen.

A type of derogation applies in welfare cases. If somebody has an animal with a broken leg and salvage is required, obviously he would not be in a position to give 24 hours notice. The matter is not totally finalised, but the very issues the committee has raised are the issues that have been raised at the discussions of the working group. The issues were such that they did not allow the complete sign-off of this issue. The working group is still considering how the legislation will be implemented.

Will Ms Barry-Walsh be in a position to inform the committee of the outcome of the discussions when they are complete?

Ms Barry-Walsh

When the working party is finished, I presume there will be either pro forma documents or conclusions of some sort.

Members would like that.

Ms Barry-Walsh

I will refer to Johne's disease in a general sense because I do not know the particulars of any case. To all intents and purposes, the disease is just one more disease from the points of view of the slaughterhouse operator and the veterinarian carrying out the ante mortem. At ante mortem stage, an animal may be deemed unfit for human consumption and slaughter. The reasons for this are varied. Moribund animals and post-calving animals would fall into this category.

The course of Johne's disease is slow and it only manifests itself after approximately five years of incubation, after which the animal slowly goes downhill. In many cases, the disease is often prefaced by the farmer's making various assumptions that it has scour of one kind or another or certain other diseases. He may or may not try to salvage it, without ever knowing the diagnosis.

The animal will have an ante mortem assessment just like any other animal and if it does not pass, it will be rejected. If, however, it passes and appears fit and clinically free of disease it may still have the disease at incubation stage. I am not sure if this answers the Deputy's question. Ante mortem examinations deal with the animal before slaughter.

If the animal——

I cannot allow supplementary questions. I did not allow Deputy Crawford and therefore I cannot allow Deputy Collins——

As she was asking me the question, I presumed I was entitled to ask one back.

She is not asking the Deputy.

Ms Barry-Walsh

I hope I made myself clear. The animal is subjected to an ante mortem examination.

The Deputy will be allowed to ask supplementary questions in the same way as everybody else. I did not allow Deputy Crawford to ask one, yet the Deputy expects me to allow him to do so at this stage. When all the other members' questions have been answered, I will allow members to ask supplementary questions, as is always the procedure on this committee.

Ms Barry-Walsh asked me if I was satisfied with the answer, to which I was replying, but the Chairman is not allowing me to do so.

The Deputy can ask questions along with other members.

Mr. Irving

A number of issues were raised in respect of which small producers and small quantities are covered by the regulations. As I mentioned earlier, the direct supply by producers of small quantities of primary products to the final consumer does not come within the scope of the regulations. Therefore, people engaged in such activity are not required to be registered. However, we must put in place rules to ensure that they are complying with reasonable hygiene requirements in regard to their animals. One of the issues is that "small quantities" will have to be defined as part of the national rules we will apply. I am not worried that there will be excessively onerous requirements on anyone in respect of very small levels of production.

Several members asked about cottage industries, small producers and street trading, part of which is covered by regulations in respect of the direct supply of small quantities to the final consumer. For example, farmers' markets will be excluded. We must have some form of regulation but it does not have to comply with the full requirements of these regulations. Nevertheless, the Department must put in place rules to govern the sector which would apply in Ireland and the maintenance of hygiene standards will be as suitable for Irish conditions as possible. That is how we will handle the issue.

The FSAI has a forum for artisan producers. We are at a very early stage in this process and much consultation needs to be carried out with official organisations and the stakeholders before anything is finalised. We are some 15 months away from these regulations coming into play. We will talk to people, listen to what they say and do our best to accommodate as many people as possible, particularly those who come under national rules, whereby we can set our own case for regulations.

I thank the officials of the Department for their frank answers. The issue of imports is one of which I am very conscious. I spent seven years on the meat board as a producer representative and was also chairman of the European committee on beef and veal so I know something of the importance of Irish exports. I also know about how our exports were regulated.

When Egyptians were importing meat from Ireland, they oversaw the slaughter and placed inspectors on our lines. The same was the case in respect of Saudi Arabia and other countries. However, the EU seems to accept products from other countries without such on-line inspection. We seem to take the word of veterinarians from, for example, Argentina and Brazil. There is no way the Egyptians or Saudi Arabians would accept that position.

More than most I accept that if we want to export on a worldwide basis, we are fully entitled to import. However, I want to ensure that our producers and consumers are equally covered — the first with the right to produce at an equal price and the second with a guarantee that the product being consumed is acceptable.

I referred earlier to animal diseases which will become more prevalent. The Opposition raised the issue as a potentially serious one 11 years ago. The Russians have stated that, from next year, we may not be able to export milk products there. It is important we know where we stand in regard to regulations.

I welcome the Department's commitment to flexibility and the possibility of derogations, particularly for smaller producers. It is important that the personnel on the ground realise that is a possibility. I have come across some difficult situations in which people were told they had to rectify a matter overnight. That was not possible because they had to apply for planning permission. If a unit is closed over a minor issue until the structures are in place, there is no point producers continuing to operate because their markets will be gone. I walked through units which were producing in the cleanest possible manner, meeting the regulations as the producers understood them. I welcome the flexibility but I want to ensure that it goes down the line.

Farmers have raised with me their concern that even when veterinary surgeons certify that a herd has Johne's disease, the cattle in question are brought to a factory and their meat enters the food chain. These farmers were not concerned about the price they were being paid for the beef but about the meat which could be entering the food chain.

There have been no major changes in the requirements for the import of animal produce once it comes through an approved establishment accompanied by a veterinary certificate. Those of us in public life are acutely aware of the importation of beef from outside the EU and that it is entering the Irish food chain. However, there is no individual traceability or veterinary certification from these sources. Therefore, individual traceability is applied to our produce and that of the rest of the EU, but is not applied to imports from outside the EU. Therefore, we cannot give a cast-iron guarantee from a food safety and hygiene point of view.

Will the delegation comment on the availability of reference laboratories and if we have them in place? If we do not, will we be able to comply by 2006? Will the delegation also give the committee more information on who the official auxiliaries are and who might certify their eligibility? I appreciate that the delegation has spelled out the requirement for 500 hours of theoretical training and so on, but what type of certification is involved and who will be responsible for its delivery and control?

I thank the officials for their report. I apologise because I had to leave the meeting briefly and did not hear all the presentation. Does the Department intend to control the different diseases which are not being tackled at present? Does the Department intend to treat malignant cattarhal disease as a serious disease? I am aware of many cases which were ignored. Farmers in surrounding areas are concerned. The farmer with the diseased animals was allowed to take them to the mart, even though everyone knew not to buy them. This is a serious disease, on which action should be taken rather than just ignoring it.

On the issue of Johne's disease, I thank the clerk because when Deputy Collins raised it at a previous meeting, the clerk contacted the Department and we received a detailed reply. Questions were also asked in the House on Wednesday.

Ms Barry-Walsh

I apologise for taking up Deputy Collins's question incorrectly. I see the point that if the herd had been certified by the veterinary surgeons as having Johne's disease and then went to the plant where it was slaughtered, it may have entered the food chain. I draw a parallel with the 30,000 TB reactors and several thousand brucellosis reactors we find every year. Animals that may have a disease can go to the meat factory. They are examined ante mortem and, subject to their not having a clinical case, may be slaughtered for human consumption. Further examination takes place post mortem. It is routine for TB and brucellosis reactors to be passed fit for human consumption.

I draw the parallel because TB and brucellosis are zoonotic diseases. They may be transmitted from animals to man but, with ante mortem and post mortem examination, the risk is negligible. There is a greater risk for a farmer out with a dairy herd with brucellosis than for anyone buying meat. Similarly, with Johne's disease, there may have been a reactor in the herd but it would be unusual for a whole herd to have the disease, although it may have occurred. The animals would be examined ante mortem. If they are clinically fit, they are slaughtered for human consumption. They then undergo post mortem examination to check if they are fit. Johne's disease, unless new information has been issued, is not a zoonotic disease; it does not hold a disease risk to humans through milk or meat.

Mr. Irving

We hope to have many of the national reference laboratories in place but are not sure if we can have one for everything. We hope with the new Backweston complex which will come on line next year and the State Laboratory we will be in a position to cover most of the areas. Any other area being examined may in the short term have to be out-sourced to laboratories abroad. We are at an early stage in looking at how we will handle these issues.

It will be up to the competent authority to set the examination based on the subjects set down in the regulation on official auxiliaries, the technical agricultural officers who work in meat plants. This will apply to all new recruits. We must satisfy the European Commission that people now in place are trained to the required levels. Technical agricultural officers are recruited on the basis of a degree and a certificate provided by Teagasc. We may have to look at people being recruited for specific jobs in meat plants rather than general agricultural duties. There may also be a requirement for additional recruitment. We must check that existing staff are competent. There is nothing set down in the regulations about how we are to satisfy ourselves but we must do so. We must satisfy the European Commission about their ability and training.

We do not have or require third countries to have the same traceability requirements as us. We require that the country concerned is approved and has certain systems in place that provide for traceability but it might not be to the same extent as in Europe. These are the official regulations overseen by the Food and Veterinary Office. Unfortunately, I have not been to any of those places. From what I have heard, however, poultry from Thailand can be contaminated. Some production units there would not be passed for importation to Europe but the quality plants are of a high standard. The European Commission, in conjunction with the member states, sets out the rules for import controls which the Commission and the Food and Veterinary Office oversee. Plants are regularly removed from the approved list.

Egypt was mentioned. At that stage it was importing beef from one country — Ireland. The European Union is importing meat and other products from such a variety of countries that it would not be feasible to oversee in the same way the Egyptians oversaw Irish production. We operate on the basis of equivalency of controls, not exact replication.

Ms Barry-Walsh

Ireland has been granted additional time for feed laboratories to reach the standard. Ireland made a specific request, as a result of which it will be worked into an implementing measure that must still be discussed and finalised but there has been tacit agreement with the Commission that we will be given additional time because a case was made for it.

Not working on the live animal side, I cannot comment on malignant cattarhal disease but it does not come within the public health remit.

The clerk to the committee will contact the Department for information on that matter.

I thank Mr. Irving and his colleagues for attending and responding to the questions asked. This concludes our scrutiny of COM (2003) 577, an amended proposal for a regulation of the European Parliament and the Council laying down specific rules for the gradation of official controls on products of animals or animal origin intended for human consumption. As has been stated, this is one of a package of five proposals intended to consolidate and update existing food hygiene legislation. It will standardise official controls in Ireland and other member states. The clerk to the committee will prepare a formal report on our discussions today which will take account of all the proposals in this area which have been referred to us for scrutiny. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The following proposal has been referred to the sub-committee of the Joint Committee on Agriculture and Food for its information — COM (2004) 532 a proposal for a directive of the European Parliament and the Council introducing humane trapping standards for certain animal species. It is to be noted. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The joint committee went into private session at 4.30 p.m. and adjourned at 4.35 p.m. sine die.

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