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JOINT COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE AND FOOD debate -
Wednesday, 3 Nov 2004

Forestry Development Strategy: Presentation.

I welcome Dr. Peter Bacon, economic consultant, who has very kindly agreed to attend our meeting to discuss his recently published report, A Review and Appraisal of Ireland's Forestry Development Strategy, a copy of which the clerk of the committee has forwarded to members.

Before asking Dr. Bacon to commence his opening remarks I draw to the witness's attention the fact that while members of this committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not extend to him. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name, in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Dr. Bacon to make his opening remarks.

Dr. Peter Bacon

I am happy to entertain questions after the presentation, if the Chairman wishes. The purpose of this report was to review existing strategy incorporating in particular an assessment of whether it was providing value for money; to examine market developments, including in particular non-timber aspects of the sector; to identify the impact of reform of the Common Agricultural Policy and to examine funding methods and structures for the future. In a ten minute presentation I will not try to summarise the complete report but will address the key conclusions under each of those headings.

The first question is whether the programme provides value for money. It does so provided one compares the expenditure of the Exchequer with other forms of agricultural support expenditure. For example, it costs approximately €140 to deliver €100 of income to a dry stock beef farmer. In forestry the cost is approximately €114 to deliver the same amount of income. Compared with other forms of agriculture support, the spending on the forestry programme represents value for money. Whether or not it does so when compared with any other use of Exchequer funding is another day's work, one which was not addressed within the terms of reference of the assignment.

In reviewing the existing strategy, the consultants found a number of significant shortcomings, the principal one of which was that the annual rate of planting achieved consistently since the programme was put in place, at about 13,000 to 14,000 hectares per annum, fell well short of what the target for that strategy was, namely 20,000 hectares per annum. The consultants went on to examine what the target ought to be, and whether it mattered that the planting fell well short of the target. Obviously it would matter if the planting figure of 20,000 hectares per annum was a relevant target.

To address this question, the consultants carried out a set of projections — the first time such an action was taken — for 50 years from now, to gauge what would happen to timber production given different scenarios for planting. The key conclusion to emerge was that unless a target of 20,000 hectares was achieved it would not be possible to realise the potential of the sector in the medium to long term. The reason is that even at the current rate of planting, production of timber will rise over the next 12 to 15 years but then fall because of changes in planting practice requirements for biodiversity and increased provision of broadleaved trees. Factors already in the mix will cause output to rise and then fall back.

The nub of the problem is that as output rises, processing capacity will have to be expanded. Investment will have to be made in order to process what is to come on stream. However, any investor looking at capacity is going to look at what will happen to production in the medium to long term. The consultants take the view that if investors see output going like that, but then falling back, it will be difficult for any of them to carry out that kind of investment. The only way of overcoming this hump in production is by achieving a rate of planting somewhere in the region of 20,000 hectares per annum. From the point of view of achieving the economic potential of timber production, that level of annual planting is needed. Otherwise the sector will probably not realise its potential in terms of timber. That is a fairly fundamental conclusion.

The other conclusion to emerge is the increasing importance of non-timber benefits. These are by and large environmental benefits, which primarily arise under two headings. Amenity leisure and recreation is one. The other potentially more significant one is the contribution the sector can make to the mitigation of greenhouse gases through the carbon sequestration features of the forest estate.

While a planting target of 20,000 hectares per annum is required to realise the commercial potential of the sector, because there are significant other benefits arising, primarily under an environmental heading, it makes sense in the view of the consultants to sustain a strategy even at the current level of planting, even though that would not realise the full commercial potential. The proviso is that all this is fine provided Government explicitly takes these environmental benefits into account in an economic way. Taking non-timber benefits into account provides an additional rationale for continuing with a strategy even if the full commercial potential of the sector is not realised.

I mentioned at the outset that we were asked to address the implications of the reform of the CAP. It has become very clear to the consultants that the thrust of EU policy in this sector in the future will be much more to underpin and realise these environmental benefits over and above the benefits from timber production. The brute fact of the matter is that when one considers that there are 25 countries in the EU, there is a lot of timber out there. Ireland is distinctively different in having a small area of afforestation, and strategy to date has been focused on achieving planting to build up that forest estate. Most other European countries are not in that category, and EU policy, to the extent that it was supportive of an expansion in planting, is becoming much more concerned with the quality rather than the quantity of timber estates, particularly when an environmental point of view is taken.

The other area which has probably achieved more notice in the reportage on this report concerns future funding methods and structures. When one looks at the projections and at the Exchequer implications of continuing to support annual premia in the medium to long term, one comes up with staggeringly high Exchequer commitments of the order of €7.5 billion. Looking at this, the consultants noted that while we have achieved a planting rate of 14,000 hectares per annum, which can be justified, we really ought to have a rate of 20,000 hectares per annum, yet when one looks at the Exchequer implication — because this is a financial issue rather than an economic one, with implications for taxpayers' money — the bill looks enormous.

The consultants therefore made a number of recommendations. The recommendations have been misunderstood, to use the most charitable description. I will take a moment to explain them. The consultants have recommended that, instead of the premia being paid over a 20-year period, they should be paid over ten. They recommend that the value that would have been paid over 20 years should be paid over ten. From the point of view of the farmer planting, there would be no change in what he would receive, because he would receive it over ten years, there would be a saving for the Exchequer from that shift.

It has been represented that the money will run out after ten years, with no incentive. The consultants' point is that the grower will receive over ten years what he would have received over 20. If he chooses to spend it all in ten years, that is his business. He need not do that; he could manage the premia. The change in the time structure of those payments does not adversely affect the grower in any way.

A second recommendation with which the consultants have come forward is that there ought to be a mechanism to enable the full value of the forest estate to be achieved. The difficulty we are trying to address is that planting is a 40-year decision. In no sector can any private individual properly discount income 40 years out, by and large because of Keynes's famous remark that, in the medium term, we are all dead. Institutions can take a longer-term view, very often because they are in the business of matching liabilities that will arise in the medium to long term. Therefore they require assets and incomes to arise in that distant future. That means that the value those kinds of organisations, which will be around for a very long time, can make on future income is usually higher than any individual can make in any sector. In the jargon of economics, institutions can have a lower discount rate than individuals.

To take advantage of that fact, the consultants came forward with the idea that the Government could take a facilitatory role by enabling a planter of trees to sell at the same rate of return as they would have received had they retained the plantation. They would sell them to the kind of institutional investor who can value that future income higher. This recommendation enables value to be created.

No doubt members are aware of the argument in the press that the advantage ought to accrue to the grower. The consultants' position is that the basis of their recommendation is that the grower has been protected regarding what he would receive over the 40-year view and that the extra value should accrue to its creator, who is, in effect, the Exchequer. The effect of those recommendations has been to mitigate the very substantial bill that would arise for the Exchequer and taxpayer by introducing those measures. It would reduce by over a quarter the Exchequer exposure over a 40-year period.

I think I have summarised all the main headings. The key messages are that the target of 20,000 that was in place is relevant. The fact that it has not been achieved is significant. Value for money has been achieved by expenditure to date, and that is enhanced when one takes account of environmental benefits. With the way in which EU policy is moving, much greater emphasis and support will be available by concentrating to a greater extent than in the past on realising and maximising such environmental gains. If value for money is to be maximised and that planting target of 20,000 realised, significant scope exists through reforming payment structures to allow growers to be as well off as at present but make significant savings to the Exchequer, something that in the consultants' view is required for the Government to commit to such an additional strategy in the medium term.

I will take three questions at a time, if that is all right.

I thank Dr. Bacon for his presentation and summary. One of the issues in his document is the willingness of farmers to participate and the long-term impact of their viewing it as a risk. Might that attitude among farmers be mitigated? Might they be encouraged to participate, perhaps through making it clear that the risk is not as great as they fear? Dr. Bacon also states that, as it currently stands, forestry is viewed as a supplement to farm income rather than as an enterprise in its own right. Is that not still the case to a large extent, given CAP reform, with people seeing forestry as a side issue rather than as a primary enterprise?

I welcome Dr. Bacon to the committee. It is a very long detailed report containing some quite controversial issues. Taking account of the fact that we are now part of a totally new regime, especially as far as livestock is concerned, with most farmers able to claim a single payment with a very low stocking level, will there not be more interest in entering forestry? That forestry planting fell from 20,000 hectares to approximately 10,000 hectares was not due to lack of farmer participation. It reflected the fact that the Government of the day was simply not prepared to allow them to go ahead or ready to fund them. I am not sure that it is down to a lack of interest among farmers.

I would like to hear Dr. Bacon's reaction to this. I believe that there would be much greater interest among farmers, including larger-scale farmers. I travelled around the country during the summer and could not believe the amount of good land that was lying unused. Surely it is in the interest of all of us to encourage its exploitation.

On the issue of taking the payments down from 20 to ten years, does Dr. Bacon not accept that he is treading on dangerous ground? Farmers are possessive and like to hold on to their land. I know of several instances where farmers have undertaken afforestation as an investment for their families. Here it is recommended that they may draw down funding equivalent to ten years and then a compulsory purchase order system might be put in place which would enable the Government to take over the land. Would that not inhibit actual participation in forestry rather than encourage it? I certainly want to see land used for forestry that is not being utilised otherwise. This brings me on to another issue.

I understand where Dr. Bacon is coming from in trying to get the forests adopted by Coillte or other some other agencies, for maintenance purposes. Could some means not be devised to encourage farmers themselves to maintain forestry under guidance, to ensure full use is made of it, for thinning or whatever? I do not believe the industry wants to manage the smaller units. That is a worry for some people.

I too welcome Dr. Bacon and thank him for his presentation. I apologise for being late but I had to attend another meeting. It is alarming to see that the target of 20,000 hectares has not been met. It is 13,000 at present, I believe. The target of 20,000 hectares is required to ensure the necessary viability.

I come from the south-west and there is a fear, in particular among active farmers, that good land for cattle or tillage will be taken into the programme of afforestation. That is creating a good deal of apprehension. When young farmers who are trying to expand and to develop an income from tillage, beef or dairy farming see land that may become available for afforestation, they are naturally concerned. No one objects to poorer land being used for this purpose. Has Dr. Bacon encountered this phenomenon in researching his presentation?

Dr. Bacon

The questions have a common theme, on the issue of uncertainty and the availability of land, so I will try to answer them collectively. The consultants take the view that with the reforms that have taken place in CAP, the introduction of the single premium and the fact that forestry premiums may now be stacked over and above that, there will be a powerful incentive for farmers to engage in forestry, as compared with the previous situation. We have estimated that uncertainty as regards extensification payments, which are now removed because of the single payment, had the effect of withholding something in the region of 450,000 hectares of land. The removal of that uncertainty which the single premium achieves, and the fact that premiums for forestry are available over and above that, is a powerful incentive towards moving land into forestry.

We believe the supply of land for forestry will increase. Will there be a demand to take up forestry? A permanent change of land use is involved and there is uncertainty about future income a long way out and how this is to be handled. The consultants take the view that a way of handling it is to provide certainty. That is why we have said that payments which were to be over 20 years should be made over ten. These are the same payments for the same value. A different market should be provided after ten years involving enhanced value. Allow in people who can value timber higher than any individual and let that process occur. The effect will be that certainty is assured in terms of the income stream. Lo and behold, the response from within the sector has been to claim it is a compulsory purchase order.

If certainty in the income stream is to be achieved there must be certainty in terms of supply. This is the conundrum. The consultants have taken the view that what is being offered is certainty on income in the face of increased supply. Many people have seen merit in that, there is certainly a view, which I acknowledge, that the price is unacceptable, namely, that one would have to sell timber after ten years, not land. The difficulty that we, as consultants, have with that is over how to ensure certainty and reduce the risk, on one side, and change nothing on the other. We cannot do that, or we have not found a way of doing it.

On the specific question about encroachment on land, I have no doubt that in the future afforestation will take place on land that heretofore would not have been considered for forestry. This is because of the far-reaching changes in the CAP and, as members of the committee will be aware, the trend is much more towards part-time agriculture. As a part-time income prop, forestry is easier to manage than dry stock cattle.

I believe there will be a tendency for better quality land to go into timber. Members will recall the point I made about EU policy shifting much more towards the quality of afforested estates and environmental benefits. One is looking at a significantly higher proportion of broadleaf species, which inevitably require better quality land than some of the conifer species. Inevitably more good quality land will be afforested provided there is the demand. The consultants have taken a view that the way demand is to be provided is to ensure greater certainty about income flow. The adverse reaction to that has been, in effect, "This means we have to sell you our timber when you want it, not when we want it." That is a consequence of the proposals contained here. It is treading on dangerous ground, but that is preferable to telling any Minister for Finance to continue as we are and that the bill will be €7.5 billion of taxpayers' money.

That is the dilemma the consultants face. If we simply guarantee the income and the amount and then increase the quantity, we have to look at the Exchequer implications, which will be horrendous.

I welcome Dr. Bacon and thank him for his concise presentation. I believe he has already answered one of my questions which was on the State option on taking over the land. We are currently planting about 12,000 or 13,000 hectares per annum. Has the 20,000 hectares threshold been examined in the report from the environmental and social point of view of the community?

Dr. Bacon has dealt comprehensively with the question of the ten year premium cycle. Does he think farmers will buy into it? They are not happy about it and it will have to be handled carefully. He has also dealt with the option for the State to purchase the land. Will the farmer have any right to purchase it? He may want to do so.

There is greater incentive to plant larger forests. Will that suit only the big farmer or the companies that want to invest? Where will the smallholder fit into that?

I also welcome Dr. Bacon and thank him for his explanatory talk. I may not agree with everything he said. I have a problem with planting level green fields. However, with the change in the CAP and the single farm payments, I accept that there will be more land available for planting.

I agree with Deputy Carty's point about the environmental consequences for the countryside, especially with large tracts of evergreens. They are not noted for being helpful to wildlife or plantlife. There is very little food produced under those trees. I wonder about the ten year idea as ten years is a very short lifetime for oak, ash, beech and so on. I think the premiums should be index-linked after ten years, even if that is at more cost to the Exchequer. I appreciate that it is not an easy task. I see many problems in the future for planting, especially on very good land. The difference is vast between production from good land and the poorer land currently being planted. Since 1996, much land has been planted and the trees are as yet quite small. We will begin to see the environmental impact after another ten years and we may be able to judge then. It is a difficult to come up with proper answers, but I have to sound a note of caution on the points I have raised.

I welcome Dr. Bacon and acknowledge that he has presented us with a very comprehensive report. I am sceptical of most reports because they come from a consultant and we are rapidly becoming a consultant driven society. We really have to be concerned about economic consultants' reports.

Most of the issues have been addressed. Dr. Bacon stated that if we give on one side, we have to take on the other and that if we go with the ten year approach, we have to adopt the stick approach. Why not make it optional? The option should be put for the primary producer, which is the farmer. Dr. Bacon is also adopting the approach of the EU bureaucrat and the unwritten policy to drive as many farmers as possible off the land, allow big producers to take over and plant as much of bloody Ireland as they can. It will be easier to handle the few that are left and trees do not talk back. It will be easier to manage them.

Dr. Bacon has spoken about this from a recreational and environmental point of view, yet some of the speakers have acknowledged that this presents problems as well. If people want to visit such forests and walk through them, what about the problems of insurance? If I were in Dublin 4 and I decided to walk to Lansdowne Road through someone's garden, I know where I would end up. Dr. Bacon has not addressed the question of insurance from the farmer's point of view. I admit that there are recreational benefits, but the liabilities that they are likely to cause have not been dealt with at all.

Why discriminate against smallholders and small farmers by suggesting that anything in excess of 25 acres such get an extra premium? That does not make sense to me. Dr. Bacon also states that indexation should be compared with other schemes such as REPS and that the payments in forestry should be similar to those. Yet he has not addressed the implications of inflation, to which it should be indexed. After ten years, the farmer is likely to end up with a very small premium, if he survives at all.

Dr. Bacon has gone along with the bureaucrats in trying to push the smaller farmer out of Ireland and trying to plant as much possible. Perhaps Dr. Bacon might respond to what is known as the Egg report, which has been published in the Irish Independent farming section for the past weeks. He may not get that in Dublin. In this report, his forestry proposals are being taken to pieces. The money spent on producing these consultants’ reports would be better invested directly into the industry.

Dr. Bacon

It is important to understand that the role of the State is that of a broker. It is not that the State is compulsorily acquiring farmers' land for its own use and benefit. The reality is that the contract is between the farmer and Government. The only way to get any other party into that is by having some option, be it one-way or two-way. That is a broker function. It is not that the State as big brother is acquiring farmers' trees after ten years, handing them a cheque and telling them to go off and drink in a pub for the rest of their lives. Contractually, the option has to rest there. Should it be a one-way option, as the consultants have proposed, or should it be a two-way option as one of the committee members proposed? The difficulty with a two-way option is that nobody knows what will happen and there is no certainty. A farmer might want to sell; however, he might not. It is hard to formulate on that basis of "I might and I might not". To achieve certainty, one must either give the farmer or another party the option.

Under the scheme we envisage, there is nothing to prevent a farmer buying his neighbour's timber. There is nothing to prevent a farmer, with three hectares, planting these and selling them off to someone with 20 hectares adjoining his three. However, you must make up your mind when facing such questions and decide what you are trying to achieve. You must achieve certainty. If you do not achieve certainty, then you cannot fix income. Perhaps other consultants can offer better value, or perhaps other people can find a better solution. We have done our best and set out our stall.

The point was raised about the Government acting as facilitator. If we proposed to saddle taxpayers with an €8 billion expenditure to support farming, we would have looked more stupid on the back of the Irish Independent farming supplement. That proposal is not a runner. What we are proposing is open to criticism and has been criticised. We can address the criticisms, although the committee may not accept what we say.

Addressing the issue of big farms and little farms, our report states greater value should be placed on non-timber, namely environmental, benefits. As somebody who does not live in Dublin, I favour the objective of utilising land which can support biodiversity. The report recommends that forest estates should be divided into three categories: commercial forests only, environmental forests only, and forests with commercial and environmental characteristics. This will ensure farmers who do not have land will have the capacity to support a commercial forest estate, and still have the ability to afforest land with species that maximise environmental benefits, namely broadleaf.

Questions have been raised regarding the environmental impact of what is already occurring and the ubiquitous Sitka spruce. Within the existing programme, there is a requirement for 30% planting and wider corridors. There are positive and negative environmental effects, and one must distinguish. Policy has attempted to deal with negative environmental effects via regulations and requirements for biodiversity, alternative species and broadleaf planting. It is one of the things which gives rise to the dip I referred to.

The principal and largest positive environmental benefit arises from carbon credits with regard to mitigation of greenhouse gases. The proposal is to provide farmers, large and small, with recognition of the environmental benefits of forestry.

The recreational question is interesting. I am not avoiding it, but there is an issue. You speak of small farmers and environmental issues, and you want that supported as a public good. There is no ideology in this wish. It is logical and sensible that the Exchequer pays for this. However, am I to understand that the public, who pay for these benefits through taxes, are to be denied access to them? The only benefit would be the income support for the grower. Is that the proposal?

What happens to the personal injuries claim?

Dr. Bacon

There is undoubtedly a cost. Employers are liable for personal injuries incurred by their employees or anybody with public access. Is public payment for the use and support of private lands solely for the purpose of supplementing a farmer's income, or is it for the public good, whereby the grower gets an income and the public has access to environmental benefits?

In the broad consultation which took place regarding this report, somebody commented that trying to provide access is pie in the sky. If it is, then it is logical to exclude those benefits from consideration. Whether they exist is irrelevant, if the Irish public cannot get access to them. Would we still conclude that the sector is worth supporting? If we did, it would be cheaper to add a supplement in a cheque in the post. You would not achieve any environmental benefit, except that the man who grows the trees would be able to look at them.

I will return to any substantive point I might not have dealt with.

I welcome Dr. Bacon. I confess I have not read his report for which I apologise. However, I looked through it and it is somewhat different from what writers have claimed in various newspapers.

The single payment system is up in the air at the moment. There is the issue of land usage, to which Dr. Bacon referred in the report. The centre paragraph on page 90 of the report deals with the Fischler proposals. Essentially, it states the ability of farmers to consolidate entitlements on part of their land and stack payments means there will be a clear incentive for those on low incomes to plant part of the land. In addition, it states there are reasons to believe some of the land previously leased to farmers will now be available for planting. How did the consultants arrive at that conclusion so early? I contend that the road farmers will take regarding the land they own and farm has yet to be decided. I am not convinced that farming will shrink and diminish to the extent the report suggests and many people claim. Farming will continue if we have proper policies.

The consultants state there will be total under-utilisation of land in farming. What information did they find that I am missing? There was a time when farmers said their land was their own and they could do what they liked with it. That is no longer the case. Farming is now controlled and disciplined.

The report refers to the environment. There are two types of environment involved. There is the environment where local people in the countryside live, such as on a farm. However, the term also refers to greenhouse gases. This country is in a bad situation with regard to environmental issues, such as global warming. Everybody blames it for last week's floods, but there were floods 100 and 1,000 years ago and they will continue in the future. It is essential we recognise the advantage of timber growing to the environment and the reduction of greenhouse gases, as well as the amenity value.

I differ from my colleague who spoke of driving out small farmers. I see grant aid and income related payments as sustainable to rural life. I have difficulty accepting the consultants condensing the payments to the ten year programme. They have set it out in an understanding fashion. However, I worry that Dr. Fischler and the EU, who tend to be paymasters and dictators, would reduce payments and aids towards afforestation. They might pick up the consultants' proposal and run with it. They are doing so anyway. If we are going to use the land alternatively through afforestation, it will be long term and must be income-related for the duration. The report suggests condensing it to a ten year programme of payment without losses. Dr. Fischler and the EU are saying otherwise. This would not lend itself to a successful programme of afforestation.

Afforestation is the way to go. I have spoken for some time about the alternative use of land. I came up with the fancy name of "common energy policy" and there is a need for such policy. Perhaps we are running behind time on the matter. Afforestation plays a role as an energy source. Oils and gas reserves are finite. I do not know how much is left. People have estimated 30 to 40 years' supply, perhaps longer, perhaps shorter, depending on usage. We must have an alternative energy source, and land is one way we can produce it. There is a place for afforestation in energy production.

I welcome Dr. Bacon and thank him for his excellent report. Many issues have been thrashed out this afternoon. In north Cork, forestry was planted 30 or 40 years ago which has been harvested within the past four or five years. The timber has been left dumped at the side of the road for quite some time. When one inquires, it transpires this timber has virtually no value. It is turned into pulp. Some of the timber comes from poor land and mountainous terrain and is not of any significant benefit.

We continue with a policy of afforestation, trying to increase annual hectare numbers from 13,000 to 14,000 and up to 20,000. We are currently harvesting a minute amount of land compared to what we will harvest if the report is implemented and the afforestation of the past few years continues for the next 10 or 15 years. What is the economic value of that?

I am specifically talking about conifers and softwoods which have been planted all over the countryside. Some members have said these are not the most beautiful sight. Dr. Bacon has spoken of the €7.5 to €8 billion required from the Exchequer. The EU has funded and tried to coax Irish farmers into different types of farming. However, there was no market for the product that was developed. If we continue with the policy, and if Ireland and the EU continue afforestation with all guns blazing, will we have any market for the stuff?

Dr. Bacon

The question regarding energy is pertinent. The report indicates bio-mass is essential. Forestry can play a significant role in terms of Ireland achieving its renewable energy target.

With regard to the value of afforestation, this relates to the issue of whether forestry is a supplement or an extra crop within agriculture, or whether it is an industry we are trying to develop. At the outset, I raised the issue of whether we will get the investment. The investment is in engineered products, to which Sitka spruce is eminently suited. However, investment is not taking place in Ireland. Much of what we produce goes into fencing. The question hinges on what it is we are doing. Are we providing farmers with income support, or are we trying to develop a sector? If we are trying to develop a sector, we can do so but it is different from providing income support. If you consider it as income support, that is what it will be. You will get low-value output.

There is huge uncertainty with regard to what happens to farming, and how people will respond to a single payment regime. What have consultants discovered in our crystal ball that makes us say there will be more land? For the past three years, the base for establishing a single payment was the output of the farmer. For farmers to maximise that base, they had to lease land. They will not have to do so in the future.

There are many views as to what should happen with this land. Consultants have taken one view and we have argued why we believe the land will go to afforestation, because the payments are stacked. There is little doubt in the broad sector that the demand for land for agricultural use will diminish because it is not required. This does not answer with certainty the question as to the use to which it is put. However, that is the basis upon which the consultants came to the view that the land does not need to be leased as in the past.

I shall make a final remark on the issue of the ten years. I understand the concern in this regard. It is not a recommendation that everything is truncated into ten years. Income that was received over 20 years is now received over ten. The return a farmer would have received had he held on to it is assured by virtue of this mechanism. The value a farmer would receive over 40 years for planting and holding a tree will not change as a result of this proposal. He or she will, however, receive that return over a shorter period.

The word that comes to mind in listening to Dr. Bacon's replies is "certainty". I am considering this issue from the viewpoint of the smaller farmer for whom there may be a sense of uncertainty and hopelessness. In terms of afforestation, Dr. Bacon identified a number of weaknesses, including those related to the product, institutions, attention to the wider benefits, supporting infrastructure, and so on. Dr. Bacon also mentioned marketing, management, knowledge and a lack of co-ordination. In the case of agriculture, however, there is co-ordination and good infrastructure as, for example, in the case of co-operatives and the organisation of wider support for the industry.

In this context, I am conscious of the questions which have been put to Dr. Bacon regarding the future of the smaller farmer. Where does he or she fit into this?

The best approach is to address the weaknesses in the supporting infrastructure and institutions, the co-ordination and the organisational support base. This is the way forward and also the way to offer the degree of certainty which already exists in other agricultural sectors.

I am concerned about the concept of the State as a broker. The Bill to wind up the Irish Land Commission, the State organisation responsible for the distribution of land, is only now before the Dáil. We must be careful in how we get involved and there are other means of dealing with this. I am worried by the prospect of brokerage.

I am interested in the issue of biomass. There is a possibility that some of the better land can be utilised for fast-growing crops for energy production. Has Dr. Bacon's group considered the cost-benefit analysis of this type of production? High-cost energy is an issue and this is one approach that should be considered if we are to have clean electricity powered from our own energy sources.

There has been much discussion about the tenure issue. This is a matter which worries me because many farmers opted for forestry in the mid or late 1940s in the belief that it would provide a reliable income. Some were not good money managers and were not people who could plan for the future. If their money is given out in a ten-year tranche, what will they live on for the following ten years? This may be a social issue but it is one we cannot ignore if this proposal is implemented.

I have not read through the report because it was handed it to me, as a new member of the committee, just the other day. I appreciate the efforts to help balance the national finances and also provide a better service. I am not condemning Dr. Bacon for the size of the report. However, it does mention the curtailing of establishment costs. This would affect smaller farmers who could not afford to establish forestry themselves. Perhaps I am reading this wrong but is Dr. Bacon suggesting that too much is spent in grant-aid towards establishment?

As I understand from Dr. Bacon's reply, the basic strategy seems to be to take as much land out of agricultural use as possible, even though it is being put into the production of a product for which there is currently no market. Should we put more emphasis on a sector or an industry to develop a market-led afforestation?

I support those members who have expressed concerns regarding payments being made over ten years. Does this apply to new or existing entrants?

Dr. Bacon

It applies to new entrants.

That is not so bad.

Does that mean the Chairman is covered?

I am covered.

A new single-payment system will come into operation next year whereby 100% of a farmer's land can qualify for rights. Some 50% of that can be planted now and premiums can be obtained. This will encourage a significant number of entrants into the forestry business.

Dr. Bacon

Can Deputy Moynihan clarify his remarks?

: The policy being pursued by the Government and the EU is to take land out of agricultural use even though it is being put into the production of a product for which there seems to be no long-term market.

Dr. Bacon

I disagree that there is no long-term market. There is such a market for timber products, although there may not be one for fence posts, for example. It is a question of value added and this is where the issue of critical mass arises. Will the industry ever be brought beyond the production of fence posts? It is not our objective to take the maximum amount of land to put into forestry. We are coming from a different point of view. If one wants to achieve a commercially viable timber products sector that is self-sustainable into the medium and long term, one must consider the extent of planting that is required. Our answer to this question is approximately 20,000 hectares in order to achieve the full potential. It is not possible to achieve the full potential at the current rate of planting, but nonetheless it is possible to achieve benefits because of these positive environmental effects, provided they are taken into account and recreational uses are valued. They will only be valued if they are accessed. The other point about greenhouse gases is very relevant in that context.

That covers everything. I thank Dr. Bacon for attending and for responding to a variety of questions asked by members. It has been a very useful exchange of views.

We have a request from Mr. Donie Shine, who wants to meet the joint committee to discuss the modulation money owed to dairy farmers of the national milk rights group. I propose that we meet Mr. Shine. Is that agreed? Agreed. The clerk of the committee will arrange that as soon as possible.

Is it possible to bring in officials from the Department to have a discussion on the bogs of Ireland and SAC areas? There is much doubt in many areas as to whether bog cutting will take place in the future.

That might be under the aegis of the Department of Environment, Heritage and Local Government. It is not under the remit of this committee.

Many farmers own bogs.

We will leave it with the clerk to contact these people. If they come in, then we will facilitate the Deputy. It will probably be dealt with by officials from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government.

As I said, many farmers own bogs. If the officials could accommodate us, it would be much appreciated.

I am aware of that. We can ask the clerk to discuss it with officials from both Departments and see what happens. Is that agreed? Agreed.

We should bring in some senior departmental official to discuss the allocation of the reserve quotas.

We intend to bring in departmental officials and possibly even the Minister to discuss that.

There are many questions on that issue that have not been answered.

We have that in mind.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.25 p.m. sine die.

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