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JOINT COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE AND FOOD debate -
Wednesday, 14 Dec 2005

Farmers’ Pensions: Presentation.

The minutes of the meeting held on 30 November 2005 have been circulated. Are the minutes agreed? Agreed.

Mr. John Bohan, Principal Officer, Mr. Dan Kavanagh, Mr. Paul Cunningham and Ms Siobhán Lawlor from the Department of Social and Family Affairs are here to make a presentation on pension issues for farmers. Before asking Mr. Bohan to commence his presentation, I draw the attention of the witnesses to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to them.

Mr. John Bohan

The aim of this presentation is to address the pensions and social welfare issues arising from the presentation to the committee on women in agriculture on 13 October 2005. The Chairman identified the issue of pensions for farm women as one for discussion with the Minister for Social and Family Affairs. Following a brief overview of the social welfare system to put these issues in context, the social insurance status of farm spouses is addressed in some detail in the main body of the presentation, together with other aspects of the social welfare system that might be relevant. We would be pleased to develop on these items for the committee or provide clarification if it is required.

In international terms, the Irish social welfare system is generally regarded as a mixed system made up of three key elements. Entitlement to specific benefits is determined on the basis of a person meeting clearly defined contingencies and also having sufficient paid contributions over their working lifetime. Contributions are in turn based on reckonable earnings or income. Entitlement to specific payments is made also on the basis of broadly similar contingencies but including an assessment of the person's means to determine genuine need. There is also universal payments payable to all without reference to either a means test or a social insurance contribution record, child benefit being the obvious example. While important in some other countries, universal payments have little relevance for pensions in the Irish system.

The social insurance system is based on both contributory and solidarity principles. The former principle provides a link between the amount a person pays into the system over his or her potential working lifetime and subsequent access to benefits. The latter principle is based on no strict link between the level of contributions and the amount of benefit which might be drawn down, allowing, therefore, for a considerable measure of redistribution within the system.

Social assistance payments are provided on the different basis of established need of the person and financed differently, that is from general taxation revenue. It expresses the solidarity of the population as a whole through its taxpayers to those less well-off in our society. Elements of social insurance, social assistance and universalism can be found in most social security systems. The Irish system, however, differs from many other European systems through its heavier reliance on means tested systems. It should be noted that reflecting the extension of social insurance system, more people are qualifying for the contributory pension

The social welfare system has developed considerably since the establishment of the State with social insurance, assistance and universal systems. It had started before the establishment of the State. Over the past 20 years, the policy orientation of successive governments has been directed at the development of the social insurance system. The commission on social welfare has had a major influence on this approach through the implementation of its recommendations on the extension of social insurance to part-time workers, self-employed and public servants. New benefits such as carers benefit have been introduced and major changes to benefit entitlement conditions have been made.

A social insurance contribution record is based largely on contributions paid into the social insurance system from a person in either employment or self-employment, with allowance made for periods spent out of the workforce through unemployment, illness and caring responsibilities. The social insurance system links access to social protection directly to participation in the labour force and thereby provides an effective mechanism for financing social protection through the collection of contributions based on earnings or income. This contrasts with the tax financing of social assistance or universal payments.

Through its combination of the contributory and solidarity principles, the social insurance system seeks to address the issue of income support in a way that is financially sustainable, avoids stigmatisation of those in receipt of payments and commands wide public support.

Social insurance was extended to self-employed persons in 1988 and this brought many farmers into the social insurance system for the first time. The contribution rate for self-employed persons was and remains considerably less than the combined rate for employees and employers. This is reflected in the fact that self-employed persons have access to a more limited range of benefits, mainly pensions and since 1997, maternity benefit. Self-employed contributors, known as class S contributors, pay a social insurance contribution rate of 3% on all earnings compared with 4% for employees. Both of these percentages exclude the 2% health contribution, which is sometimes included in references to PRSI contributions. The employees are subject to a ceiling on earnings which the self-employed do not have. Employers' contributions vary from between 7.8% and 10.05%. The headline rates are not normally put higher because they include the national training levy at 0.7%.

The position of farm spouses in the social insurance system has been raised by the farming organisations on several occasions. Social welfare legislation defines the conditions for insurability under the social insurance system. It specifically provides that coverage does not extend to a spouse of a self-employed contributor, who is not a partner, where he or she participates in the business of the self-employed contributor and performs the same tasks. While the implications of this provision for farmers is fairly clear, the provision extends to all categories of spouses assisting self-employed contributors, such as electricians or workers in the construction industry.

Many of the legal tests which apply to employment, which are referred to as contract of service, and self-employment, which is known as contract for service, could not be reasonably applied between spouses. Similar issues arise for employment and taxation legislation. For instance, there are similar exclusions for spouses in employment protection legislation enshrined by the Organisation of Working Time Act 1997, and the National Minimum Wage Act 2000.

While this provision does mean the position of a spouse on a family farm is different in its social insurance implications compared with a non-family employee, it need not prevent farm spouses from building up a social insurance contribution record and thereby establishing an entitlement to a contributory pension in their own right. Farming spouses can build up a record of paid contribution in three different scenarios.

Spouses who are actively engaged in a commercial partnership are treated as individual self-employed contributors and are liable to social insurance contributions. These contributions, made under PRSI class S, enable them to build up an insurance record in their own right and to receive accruing benefits.

Where a family business is incorporated as a limited company, spouses involved in the business can establish a social insurance record as either employees or as self-employed contributors, depending on whether a contract of service is judged to exist.

Persons engaged in farming are increasingly taking up off-farm employment. This enables farming spouses who might otherwise not be insured to develop a social insurance record on the basis of their off-farm earnings. Farming spouses who were previously employed are able to maintain their social insurance coverage in the long term by contributing to the voluntary PRSI contribution scheme.

In the context of the first of these scenarios, a partnership is commonly understood to be an association of two or more persons for the purpose of gain or of sharing in the work and profits of an enterprise. Contrary to some preconceptions in this area, liability for PRSI contributions is not contingent on the joint ownership of property but rather on the nature of the business arrangements between the couple.

The exception of spouses from liability for social insurance contributions has been part of our social insurance legislation since at least the 1950s. The legislation has been reconsidered on several occasions. In 1986 the commission on social welfare stated, "as far as possible, assisting relatives, with the exception of spouses, should be treated as employees". In 2002, and in recognition of the need to consider the more specific issue of social insurance contributions for farm spouses, an interdepartmental group chaired by the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development was convened. It concluded that the formation of business partnerships offers an immediate route of access to social insurance cover as it is based on existing legislation, that such arrangements would not impose any significant additional administration costs on farm business: for example, that couples liable for income tax under joint or separate assessment will continue to make one income tax return each year, the only change being that the income of the farm enterprise will be apportioned in accordance with the partnership arrangements. We have given members a copy of that report in our information pack. The issue was discussed again by a working group of social partners established under the Programme for Prosperity and Fairness and re-established under Sustaining Progress. The group, which included a farming pillar, was asked to produce proposals across a range of social insurance areas for the development of a fully inclusive social insurance model that would facilitate combining work and family responsibilities in the context of changing work and social patterns.

Members also have the report of the group, which was finalised this year. In summary, social partners acknowledged the significance of the partnership option and recommended that more information on the tax and social welfare implications of families working either in partnership or a limited company be made available. That recommendation is currently being advanced, and we will be pleased to elaborate further on that work, should the committee so wish.

This is the current information on the partnership option. The Department of Social and Family Affairs already publishes information on this area, and a copy of an information booklet published by the Department on the issue of family employment and insurability under the Social Welfare Acts is included in the information pack. It points to the fact that two or more family members who operate a business as a partnership and share the profits may be insurable as self-employed contributors at PRSI class S, provided that each has a reckonable income of at least €3,174 per year from all sources. The partnership must be genuine and supported by appropriate documentary evidence such as the existence of joint business accounts with banks. There should also be evidence that business activities are in joint names, including invoices, mart and creamery accounts, cash-and-carry accounts, farm grant applications, herd numbers and business insurance policies.

The most important indicator of the existence of a business partnership is the sharing of profits or losses. Income tax returns for each partner showing his or her share of the profits should be available. In the case of married couples making income tax returns under joint or separate assessment, the income of each must be shown. The income tax returns should generally be made on a current-year basis. If it is decided that there is a partnership, PRSI contributions are calculated on the basis of income details contained in the income tax returns.

It should be noted that changes to both the taxation system and the PRSI system have improved incentives for farm families to operate on a partnership basis in recent years. The move in the direction of individualisation of taxation provisions has meant that couples can benefit from wider tax bands than one person alone. The abolition of the ceiling regarding class S PRSI contributions has effectively removed a possible incentive to maximise the level of earnings accruing to a single social insurance contributor.

I will clarify a reference made in a previous presentation to the committee regarding a resolution from the European Parliament on the social insurance rights of farm spouses. The report on women of rural areas of the European Union was compiled by the Committee on Women's Rights and Equal Opportunities to inform the mid-term review of the Common Agricultural Policy of the European Parliament in June 2003. The report acknowledges that the relevant EU directive on the application of the principle of equal treatment between men and women engaged in agriculture in a self-employed capacity has been implemented in all member states. The report recognises that the directive, particularly as it relates to issues of social security, leaves it to individual member states to decide the appropriate level of social security cover for assisting spouses through the accrual of their own rights or derived rights, that is, through the employment of self-employment of the spouse.

There are several other relevant issues outside insurability. Any of the three scenarios I raised, including partnership, would facilitate the accrual of a social insurance record for farm spouses and, consequently, entitlement to a contributory old-age pension. There are several other issues relevant to entitlement to pensions for farm spouses. They concern the potential for payment in respect of qualified adult allowance made directly to spouses, the treatment by the social insurance system of time spent outside the workforce as home-makers, and the changes to conditions for qualifications for old-age contributory pensions and non-contributory pensions in recent years.

Regarding the first of those, the social welfare system provides that new pensions claimants can now opt to have the qualified adult allowance paid directly to their spouse or partner. Furthermore, the administrative and legislative implications of enhancing those provisions are being examined to ensure that more qualified adults can receive that personal payment. That provision will be all the more relevant when account is taken of Government commitments regarding the rate that applies to qualified adult payments. In the programme for Government and Sustaining Progress, the Government committed itself to increasing the payment for qualified adults aged 66 or over to the same level as the personal rate of the old-age non-contributory pension. That process commenced in budget 2000, and several special increases have since been granted. The rate of the qualified allowance of the contributory pension now stands at €138.50 per week, approximately 84% of the maximum rate of the non-contributory pension.

Regarding the position of home-makers and their pension entitlements, the social welfare pension rights of those who take time out of the workforce for caring duties are protected by the home-makers' scheme. Introduced in 1994, it allows up to 20 years spent on caring duties to be disregarded when a person's insurance record is averaged to assess entitlement for contributory pension purposes. While the scheme will not of itself qualify a person for a pension, it is designed to mitigate the effects of periods spent on caring duties when a person's insurance record is being averaged for pension purposes.

Several measures have been taken in recent years to ensure that as many people as possible qualify for pensions in their own right. In 1997, the yearly average number of contributions required for pension purposes was reduced from 20 to ten, and in 2000 a special half-rate pension was introduced based on pre-1953 insurance contributions. Pro rata pensions are also available to allow people with mixed-rate insurance records to receive a payment, and that benefits people who may have worked in both the public and private sectors.

That set of measures is of particular benefit to women who may have incomplete social insurance records owing to working in the home. It is estimated that approximately 87% of women aged 65 years receive social welfare support, either in their own right or as qualified adults on the pension of their spouse or partner. Regarding non-contributory pensions, several measures have been taken to ease the means test. In 2004, the capital disregard was increased to €20,000, and in the recent budget an earnings disregard of €100 was introduced. Those allowances are doubled in the case of couples, and the basic income disregard was increased from €7.60 to €20 per week.

The Government's policy is to extend social protection, primarily through development of the social insurance system. The basis of insurability is mainly through employment or self-employment, with provisions for time out of the labour force. The issue of the insurability of farm spouses has been addressed several times. The employment option is clearly not feasible and is not being proposed by farming organisations. Farm spouses can be socially insured under the self-employment provisions, thereby building up an entitlement to a pension in their own right if the partnership book is followed. The Department provides information in that regard and is speaking to the Revenue Commissioners to see how that might be improved. In the meantime, we would consider suggestions from farming organisations and others regarding how the partnership option might be made more feasible and pension coverage for farm spouses improved.

I thank the committee for the opportunity to make this presentation.

I thank Mr. Bohan. We will now take questions, beginning with Deputy Naughten.

I thank Mr. Bohan for his very comprehensive presentation on the issues associated with this topic. We called him before the committee because we had a previous meeting. My colleague Senator Coonan pointed out that he was aware of a couple that owned and farmed two separate pieces of land. However, because they were working under one herd number, only the husband was entitled to a contributory old-age pension.

There is great frustration among farming women. In many cases, they do the book work. They are the farm managers, make the tax returns and keep the financial end of the business up to date; yet they receive no recognition from the social welfare system. Perhaps, as he offered, Mr. Bohan might elaborate regarding the 2005 report that has just been completed. It is critically important. Why has the Department not been more proactive in encouraging farm partnerships hitherto? There is hesitancy among farm families regarding the farm partnership route. The Department has been extremely successful in promoting certain schemes. Does it see itself targeting a specific campaign to try to address this and increase public awareness of it among farm families? In Mr. Bohan's contribution, he spoke about herd numbers. Perhaps the Department might elaborate on the discussions that have taken place as regards the Revenue Commissioners, and how it is hoped to finalise them. The difficulty for many people in this regard is that they are afraid it will involve more paperwork and that it will be much more complex. There is an onus of responsibility, too, on accountants, to take a more active role, perhaps, in this regard.

While I am on the issue of accountants, has the Department had any dealings with the accountancy professions or any of their individual members, as regards trying to actively encourage them to make the voluntary contributions? There are years in which farmers are not liable to pay tax. They then have the option of making a voluntary contribution. I have come across instances where people have been deemed ineligible for an old age contributory pension because a couple of years of voluntary contributions were not made by the accountant. The people in question had been paying fees to the accountant and believed the contributions were being made. Only when they went to look for their pensions did they find this difficulty.

I have two other brief questions. The first is about women who have been in the workforce prior to getting married and working on a farm from that date. I have come across, as all members of the committee have, a number of anomalies where either contributions had not been made by the employer or there was no record of them. What steps can be taken as regards that? I know the Department has been flexible in cases where no records are available in getting statements from other employees within a company which have helped to facilitate applications. Where the employer has made no contributions, however — even though he or she should have — these people appear to be left high and dry. I should like the Department to elaborate on that.

The final point is about the farm assist. It seems to me that quite a number of farmers are now eligible for the farm assist who are not availing of it. This is similar to the situation as regards family income supplement. What steps are being taken by the Department to try to facilitate that? Part of the problem is the complexity of the application form that has to be submitted. I have gone through the scheme with a number of people and once they had seen the detail required in the application form, they were not prepared to go any further. Perhaps the Department might elaborate on some of those points.

I apologise for being late and I want to welcome the principal officer and his officials who are before the committee on a very important issue. I am sorry I missed part of the presentation. I stress the need to have the role of women in agriculture down through the years recognised. The Department should give clear credence to their contribution and have them included from now on, however that may be done, because of the silent and very effective role they have played. Deputy Naughten has raised some instances where people might not have made contributions down through the years. Tax exemptions might be in place, for example, in respect of leased land for someone on early retirement. Let us say the tax exemption on a piece of land leased for €5,000 was €4,000, as a result of which no tax was paid. Whether it was the fault of the accountant or otherwise no contributions were paid, either. Then when a person comes to retirement age it is discovered that no contributions have been paid and he or she is dependent on the spouse. This is a terrible dilemma for people who have worked all their lives and participated in growing the economy, to find they have nothing to fall back on when they reach pensionable age. It is an issue that must be seriously considered. I am delighted that the committee has had the opportunity to discuss this with the officials today.

I, too, welcome the officials. The previous two speakers have covered much of the ground as regards what I wanted to ask.

I am sure the Deputy will think of something.

Deputy Naughten has covered the important issue as regards the years in which a farmer has no taxable income. There are also cases — and this was introduced in 1994 — where the average number of required contributions was reduced from 20 to ten. I find, especially in rural communities, that farmers who paid contributions got jobs in many cases as school bus drivers as a part-time occupation. Although they might have acquired eight or nine contribution stamps, they were sill not eligible for any type of pension. It is unfair, to a degree, that they have paid into something and are not getting any return from it. For one reason or another, they are not eligible for an old age non-contributory pension. That should be looked at, again, because they have contributed and they are not getting anything back.

Another part of the social welfare system provides that if a farmer, for some reason is not receiving a full non-contributory pension, and then sells his or her land, he or she is not eligible for any pension. This is also something that should be looked at. The money might have been distributed between nephews and nieces. The Department's attitude is that this money should have been kept and put aside for his or her own latter-day well-being. However, this does not always happen in rural communities. I came across a case of a farmer who did that, earlier this year. He was getting a partial non-contributory pension. Then he applied for a top-up, only to be told that he was not eligible for any pension. The case went through the appeals system and, thankfully, he got back his entitlement. The reference to the relevant section is in my office, as it was marked out for me. Little anomalies such as this should be reviewed. The circumstances in that case were peculiar in that he had left the money to a nephew who had no intention of coming back, helping him or doing anything. So he sold the land and divided the money between his other nephews and nieces. Fortunately, he kept a little in the bank for himself. If he had not, he would have been deemed ineligible for any pension.

I welcome the delegation from the Department and thank it for its presentation. I must admit I will have to spend some time studying it. There are many aspects on which I am not clear. However, many of the relevant points have been raised, particularly as regards a farmer who does not have all the required contributions.

A farmer contacted me last week who had finished his farm retirement scheme at 70. He had nine contributions, the first one missing and he is not now entitled to a pension. Perhaps I am out of order in raising the question of the farm retirement scheme and the issues that arose from that and the social welfare pension, where many farmers are now being asked to repay money because of a misunderstanding, wrong advice, counsel that was not interpreted properly or whatever. There are various views on this between ownership and management. The end result, however, is that quite a number of people find they must pay relatively large sums of money. Perhaps this is the wrong forum in which to raise this, but the Department of Social and Family Affairs has a role in this regard. We have raised this issue with the Minister for Agriculture and Food and she is looking at it. I may not be fully in order in raising it, but——

With the Deputy's permission, I shall refocus that question because there is an element that is of critical importance to the Department of Social and Family Affairs. The difficulty with the farm retirement scheme for the Department of Agriculture and Food is that if those who apply for and receive their social welfare payment do not make contact with it, they will receive a summons in the post to return thousands of euro. A very simple procedure would be for the Department of Social and Family Affairs, when it grants a pension, to send an email to the farm retirement section in the Department of Agriculture and Food. That would resolve some of the issues to which the Deputy refers.

I very much agree with Deputy Naughten that such an action would be the way forward, but we have a situation where many farmers are being asked to pay this money due to the interpretation put on the joint ownership provisions when they applied to participate in the early retirement scheme. Perhaps I should not mention it here, but the officials may be in a position to help.

I support everything that has been said. Last Thursday, Deputy McEntee and I were invited to a lunch in our constituency organised by Women in Farming in County Meath, at which we discussed various issues. It was the first time I was ever at such a lunch and I found it very interesting. There were women there whose husbands had passed away at a young age, prior to qualifying for the pension or had just qualified for it. Some said they had been making social insurance contributions since 1988 and that when their husband passed away, they did not qualify and had to declare everything in seeking a non-contributory pension. In many cases, they did not qualify because of the value of their assets. They feel that is wrong. Their husband may have made contribution for up to 15 years, yet they still did not qualify for anything, which seems unjust. It seems the partnership system is the only way to go and we should probably be publicising its importance. Either Department should place advertisements appealing to individuals to go down that route.

There is a great number of small farmers who, as Deputy Naughten pointed out, were exempt from submitting a tax form. They did not need to go anywhere near an accountant for years. Unfortunately, their accountants never advised them to pay PRSI with the result that they do not now qualify for anything. They receive a small pension, which is just not good enough. It is sad that they are left out in the cold. Something should be done for them. There are not that many widowed women farmers working. It would not cost the Exchequer very much to look after them. We expect the Minister to come before the committee in the new year when we will impress upon him the importance of doing something for these unfortunate individuals.

Mr. Bohan

There is much to respond to.

Everything but the kitchen sink.

Mr. Bohan

I spotted that also.

It is very difficult to comment on individual cases or extrapolate from them what the problem is. Deputy Carty stated the particular issue to which he referred had been addressed on appeal. I was glad to hear that because it suggests there is a remedy available to many. The Chairman referred to those persons who do not have access to a social insurance record and are widowed. There is always a fall-back to the means-tested system which provides a safety net. While we have moved away from means-testing as the basis of social security payments, it is still important to have such a system as a safety net. We are trying to develop a social insurance system to eliminate or at least reduce the gaps.

A number of Deputies mentioned the issue of partnership and how the Department should be more proactive. One can never be too proactive on an issue such as this. One of the Department's objectives is to maximise the level of social insurance coverage. We seize any opportunities to provide information. We have some information on family employments. One issue which came up in the review was whether that information could be improved. Mr. Kavanagh will talk a little more about our contacts with the Revenue Commissioners. The review dealt with two issues, one of which was that we should work with Revenue to try to improve the information available. I hope other issues such as the need to deal with accountants and the importance of making voluntary contributions will be included. On the social insurance group, we also recommended that the Department, as well as the Department of Agriculture and Food, should work with the farming representatives to assist them in overcoming the legal and administrative obstacles identified and documented by the Irish Farmers' Association. I have heard different stories about whether herd numbers present a specific problem. My colleague, Ms Lawlor, may be able to say more about this because she has spoken to colleagues in the Department of Agriculture and Food. As it is not the only indicator, it should not stop people getting involved in a partnership, but if there is a difficulty, we would like to see it addressed. We will take up the issue with the Department of Agriculture and Food.

Discussions in this forum and the presentations made by Ms Mary Carroll and the Country Women's Association create more awareness of the issues involved. I represented the Department at the conference held in Croke Park, to which some Deputies referred. I said the same thing there about the partnership option and that it was important for farming women that their contribution was recognised. From the discussions I have had with farming organisations, this seems to be the way forward. Nobody will defend complexity in the application process which we try to make as simple as possible. The complexity of the form is to some extent driven by the complexity of the scheme. As the committee knows, we have a different level of disregards and different treatment of off-farm income versus on-farm income. We need to capture the type of information which exists but we are trying not to over-complicate the system. The Department's information side is considering the area of form design with a view to improvement. I will bring this exchange to its attention to find whether this matter can be addressed.

Reference was made to women in the workforce who get married and leave the social insurance system. I suspect that many such women do not fully leave the social insurance system when they get married or do not leave it for the duration that pertained in the old days.

I am not talking about the current situation but about women who worked and are now approaching the pensions threshold. Access to records seems to be a major difficulty.

Mr. Bohan

Our studies suggest that the records are incomplete. When it comes to the application stage, Department staff will go out of their way to try to fill the gaps that exist. The homemaker's disregard will allow for the gaps to be directly plugged, which may make a difference in the future. Also, I would not underestimate the capability of administrative individualisation which results in the direct payment to the spouse of a qualified adult allowance which increases over time. This could play a major role, although it is not strictly speaking a pension derived on the basis of social insurance entitlement but is a payment made directly to the spouse. The Minister and the Department would be anxious that the use of the facility is maximised.

The increase in social welfare rates generally, including the significant budget increases, have fed through to farm assist and the payments are fairly good. However, as it is not like the family income supplement payment or the unemployment assistance payment, it is difficult to compare it with the other payments. The committee would be familiar with some of the issues involved.

Deputy Hoctor stated that the Department should give recognition to women. We do not have one single strategy to achieve this but must try to do it across the social insurance system, hopefully by also changing the social assistance system. We are undertaking a quality review of the social welfare system where I am sure the issue will also feature.

With regard to the tax exemption, no tax and therefore no contribution was paid. An income of €4,000 is quite small but the amount of revenue required to secure a social insurance contribution is also quite small — I think I referred to the sum of €3,174, which is a low threshold for social insurance and has not been changed for employees or the self-employed in 17 years. This has been of significant help in allowing people to get a contribution. For example, an employee barely has to do a day's work on the minimum wage to get a social insurance contribution, which is important. I hope the cases referred to would be very much the exception rather than the rule.

Deputy Carty referred to the average being eight or nine contributions. Some minimum contribution must be made. We have dealt with this issue in a number of ways. Over the years we have lowered the contribution conditions. However, to maintain the contributory principle of the social insurance system, some contribution must be made to secure the benefit. As will always be found with the social welfare system, when a rule is made there will always be people on both sides of the rule. My colleagues may wish to add to that point.

With regard to the relationship between the social welfare system and the Department of Agriculture and Food pension, I will pass on the suggestion made by Deputy Naughten to ascertain whether that can be achieved given data protection constraints. My understanding is that many of the issues arise with regard to the farm retirement pension rather than the social welfare pension in that the farm retirement pension is phased out and the old age contributory pension is phased in, although that may not be strictly the case.

If the Department of Social and Family Affairs could inform the Department of Agriculture and Food that someone is in receipt of the pension, it would go a long way towards resolving the problem.

Mr. Bohan

I will pass on the suggestion. I will hand over to my colleagues who may be able to add greater detail.

Mr. Paul Cunningham

In respect of the Chair's points on the widow's pension, I was surprised that people might have difficulty with the process because, in the context of overall social welfare schemes, the widow's pension is probably one of the easiest payments to qualify for. The minimum contribution requirement is 156 payments and one can average these over three to five years before a person dies, so it is relatively easy to qualify. If the committee has a particular case it wants us to consider, we will certainly do that.

Ms Siobhán Lawlor

The issue of herd numbers arose in our discussion in the fully inclusive group and I contacted the Department of Agriculture and Food to try to address it. I understand that the herd number in question is in a single name for EU reasons which concern the custody of stock. Therefore, a single named person has responsibility in terms of liability and such matters. However, the fact there is an associated name allows a woman's name — it is invariably a woman — to be associated with the stock and the venture. The issue concerns the other evidence that would support this, such as the bank account being in a joint name, creamery cheques being in both names or the fact that the co-op would know both people as being involved in the venture and able to make decisions. In making decisions from an insurability side, this is the kind of evidence of partnership we are looking for. The herd number is an indicator of requirements under EU directives but it does not define whether a person is in or out in terms of partnership.

The issue of promoting awareness arose out of the FISIM group, where we discussed the implications of tax and social welfare with regard to partnerships, working in a venture or as a limited company, or just being involved in the work from mutual affection rather than having a hands-on involvement in terms of a partnership. These issues were raised a number of times in the past two years and we have published documents in the Farming Independent and the Irish Farmers’ Journal. The IFA handbook has also included some references in this regard, although I cannot remember how up-to-date that handbook is — mine dates from 2002 but a more up-to-date version is probably available. The Department of Agriculture and Food also publishes information annually on the subject. I know this because I have just updated that information. As far as possible, we work to make the information accessible. It is also on our website, as is the FISIM report. Notwithstanding the fact that better data transfers might be feasible, we are doing our best to get the information out. We cover a number of different bases and, as far as is possible, we will try to improve on that.

The farming organisations, particularly their women's groups, should make greater efforts to highlight this issue. While I do not suggest that they do not highlight this, it seems that many women do not realise that the partnership system can be of assistance to them to qualify for pensions when their husbands pass away. When the farming organisations come before the joint committee in the new year, as they do every year, we should impress the importance of advising their members to that effect on them.

Mr. Dan Kavanagh

During his presentation, Mr. Bohan mentioned that the Department of Social and Family Affairs and Revenue have co-operated to produce a guide or a code of practice to cover the conditions required for a partnership to exist. I work in the scope section of the Department, which makes decisions on a quasi-judicial basis. We do not make decisions on a whim and the process is inflexible because all decisions must be based on legislation and established case law. Any decision can be appealed up to the High Court if necessary. We operate under the Partnership Act 1890 and certain interpretations of that Act have been established as a result of case law.

At present, the Department and Revenue are trying to produce an accessible guide which would inform people as to what criteria contribute to the establishment of a genuine partnership. We will also try to include the implications of a partnership in this guide, because the Partnership Act sets down many implications, including the right to bind each other, the right to sell, questions regarding liability and other matters. This may have been the point to which Deputy Naughten referred previously, whereby some farming organisations may be somewhat nervous about entering into partnerships. Hence, we hope to produce some guidelines to inform people of the criteria as to what constitutes a partnership and as to what may be the implications of entering into a partnership.

Ms Lawlor

With regard to partnership, I read the transcripts from Ms Mary Carroll's last appearance before the joint committee. She appeared to suggest that a marriage constituted prima facie evidence of a partnership. This is not the case as partnership pertains to being involved in a venture. However, there is no obligation for partnerships to be full and equal, as greater and lesser roles are permitted. Whenever a woman — it is invariably a woman — can show that she has a role in the venture, there is no reason to prevent her from entering into a partnership. While Ms Mary Carroll did much good work in promoting this issue as the IFA’s equality officer, this is not simply a woman’s issue. This is a farmer’s issue, because it concerns income to the household in the long term. When the IFA appears before the joint committee, perhaps the members can press this point to its representatives.

Mr. Bohan

I made a point about changes to the taxation system, which may be a key factor as far as accountants are concerned. Effectively, from a tax perspective, with the partial individualisation of tax bands, it is not in a person's interests to split an income. Perhaps a combination of these factors will move us in a different direction.

Deputies Hoctor and Naughten have supplementary questions.

It has been interesting to hear this debate. My conclusion is that a greater awareness of the existing entitlements is required as they are good, including the opportunity to pay voluntary contributions. Unfortunately however, many farmers do not realise that as self-employed people, they can contribute to a pension they can enjoy when they come to pensionable age. I have encountered cases where, after some probing, I have realised that they do not pay any contributions. Many of those whose spouses pay PAYE will be solely dependent on their spouses when they reach pensionable age, as they will be unable to secure a non-contributory pension, given the household situation.

We need greater awareness of this issue through the efforts of the farming organisations and the accountants' firms. I question the role of some accountants who are paid well by farmers to look after their accounts, but who do not protect the farmers' interests in that respect. When members raise such cases with the Department of Social and Family Affairs, it becomes glaringly obvious that the accountants have not been completely vigilant in ensuring that payments were made every year, regardless of whether tax was paid.

Awareness can also be raised through advertising. Perhaps the Department does not see a role for itself in reminding people, on television or through other media, that they should make provision for their pension welfare in their working years, so they will be able to avail of that contribution when the time comes.

At the outset, I failed to thank the principal officer, Mr. John Bohan and his staff. I also thank all those officials who are not present today and who provide a terrific service to members through their constituency offices every day of the year, in terms of providing automated print-outs of people's contributions. The technological advances whereby one can now use old insurance numbers to assess contributions are quite extraordinary. Sometimes however, one encounters cases where people have paid contributions for eight or nine years, but the tenth year is lost. In future, there must be great awareness to ensure that such people avail of their contributions.

Deputy Hoctor wants the officials to repeat her praise of the Department to the Minister.

I was being sincere.

Mr. Kavanagh has highlighted an important issue I had not considered before this meeting, namely, the complete inadequacy of the partnership law to meet present circumstances. The impact is not limited to farming, as concerns have also been raised regarding anomalies for other partnerships, such as those formed by doctors and vets, because the legislation is 120 years old. The joint committee should write to the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment to request that this matter be dealt with as expeditiously as possible. There are significant anomalies whose impact is not limited to the agricultural sector. I wish to ask two questions and make one comment.

As far as the problem cited by Deputy Carty is concerned, I encountered a similar case four or five years ago. It was resolved within the Department, without the necessity of making an appeal. However, it is unusual that a couple of years later, Deputy Carty was obliged to go through the appeals process to secure the same decision. While I do not claim to have done a better job than him, it might be easier if there was greater communication concerning such decisions, to avoid the necessity of using the appeals process.

The Minister has given indications that people will be able to work beyond the age of 65 or 66 and that probably, a facility will be made available for them to continue to make contributions beyond their 66th birthday, if they continue in the workforce or to be self-employed. This measure would surmount some of the difficulties encountered, whereby some people only have nine years' contributions or where their average contributions fall just short. Perhaps the witnesses can elaborate on the present status of those discussions? I believe the Minister announced this measure almost 12 months ago. While I know the present Minister is fond of making announcements, perhaps the witnesses can elaborate on this announcement's progress? If people could make additional contributions beyond their 66th birthday, it might address some of the problems raised by Deputy Hoctor.

In addition, a difficulty has arisen in respect of non-contributory old age pensions. Although the witnesses may not be able to respond to this issue today, I want them to raise it with their departmental colleagues. If a farmer who is in receipt of an old age pension decides to lease his land, the total value of that lease is deducted from the pension. Hence, there is no incentive for such a farmer to undertake a lease on either a long-term or short-term basis. Unless such farmers come under the farm retirement scheme, there is no advantage to them in leasing that land. It would help release some land, particularly in the west, where farmers keep some stock on their land because they are unable to lease it. If they do lease this land, every cent they earn from it will be clawed back from the old age non-contributory pension. The same discretion permitted in respect of income tax and the farm retirement scheme should be applied here to exempt a certain amount of this money, even if it came from long-term leases.

I echo Deputy Hoctor's assertion that many other Departments could follow the example of the Department of Social and Family Affairs with regard to the availability of information, its flexibility in dealing with Members of the Oireachtas and its swift response to Members' queries. The service provided by it is second to none. We could make use of the information officers in the regional and local offices of the Department of Social and Family Affairs more frequently. At the drop of a hat, these information officers will tell any group, be they elderly people or farmers, about their entitlements to social welfare payments. We have an onus as public representatives to possibly facilitate developments whereby information officers go out into the communities and address members of the farming community about their entitlements to such schemes as PRSI-based schemes, farm partnerships or income supports like farm assist.

I thank the Department of Social and Family Affairs, particularly the regional and local offices, with which we deal on a daily basis, for the unparalleled service provided to us. I pay tribute to Seán Murphy, a very well-known social welfare officer in Waterford, a member of "Bachelors in Trouble" and a superb individual, who will retire at the end of this month. Deputy Naughten commented that the Minister likes to make announcements and I am sure he will join me in congratulating the Minister on the splendid budget announced recently.

I have had experience of dealing with the Minister in a previous Department.

Deputy Wilkinson, without interruption.

Deputy Naughten is in the wrong party. Although the Department of Social and Family Affairs is not responsible for the farm retirement scheme, it might discuss an anomaly in the scheme with the Department of Agriculture and Food. This anomaly leads to certain people owing money through no fault of their own and must be resolved. The Minister for Agriculture and Food is aware of this situation.

Mr. Bohan

My colleague, Mr. Cunningham, will discuss pensions. Deputy Naughten has raised the issue of the old age non-contributory pension on a number of occasions in parliamentary questions. Like many changes in social welfare, it would be very difficult to introduce this change and confine it to a very select group. I am sure the Deputy has very specific cases in mind. Such a change would probably need to be extended to all contributory pensions and payments such as farm assist. It is difficult to ring fence such changes.

The primary objective of the social assistance scheme is to get money to people on low or non-existent incomes. Bringing fallow land into use is probably the scheme's second objective. One must always maintain a balance between these two objectives and this is possibly where the balance of the argument lies. Our main focus, from a social welfare perspective, is targeting the maximum amount of resources to combat poverty in these groups, rather than bringing fallow land back into use. Through getting people back into employment, particularly in recent years, we have realised that the social welfare system has other objectives, which we try to accommodate. I have taken Deputy Naughten's comments on board and will pass them on to the relevant people.

I will follow up on Deputy Wilkinson's point about the farm retirement scheme. It might be easier to focus on particular cases that Deputy Wilkinson has in mind. I will pass on the very kind comments made by members of the committee about the Department of Social and Family Affairs. We certainly do not take such comments for granted, particularly those made by elected representatives.

Mr. Cunningham will now address the Minister's announcement on pension age.

Mr. Cunningham

Deputy Naughten stated that the Minister is on record on a number of occasions as saying that people should be able to work for a longer period and that the Department should do all it can to encourage this. It is important from a number of perspectives, including the sustainability of pensions going forward, that people are able to work for a longer period. The Minister asked the Pensions Board to examine the Department's national pension strategy. We recently received the board's report, which will be published in the new year. Part of the report concerned what we can do to encourage people to work for longer, including what can be done in the context of the social welfare system. We will consider what needs to be done following the report's publication.

We will see major movement from the Minister.

On behalf of the committee, I thank Mr. Bohan and his colleagues for their presentation and responses to the questions put to them. I, like other Members of this committee, compliment the Department on its tremendous work and the unparalleled way in which it facilitates the public. Is it agreed to go into private session? Agreed.

The joint committee went into private session at 4.18 p.m. and adjourned at 4.25 p.m. until Wednesday, 11 January 2006.

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