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JOINT COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE AND FOOD debate -
Wednesday, 5 Apr 2006

Irish Creamery and Milk Suppliers Association: Presentation.

On behalf of the joint committee, I welcome and congratulate Mr. Jackie Cahill on his recent election as president of the ICMSA. We wish him every success in his new role. The committee looks forward to his presentation. I also welcome Mr. Kieran Dolan, general secretary, and Mr. John Enright, policy officer of the association.

Before asking Mr. Cahill to commence the presentation, I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to them. Members of the committee are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. Jackie Cahill

I thank the joint committee for its congratulations. As the Chairman said, I am new in the position of president of the ICMSA. If the farming sector was ever at a crossroads, it is at one now. We need the support of the Government and farming bodies more than ever.

I intend to discuss the main points of our detailed submission which is available to the committee for examination. The principal point we must get across to the Government and the Commission in Brussels has to do with farmers' incomes. It is a key issue and the underlying problem in all aspects of our submission. It must be addressed. For many years farmers have been accused of crying wolf. Unfortunately, farming is now in deep trouble and farmers' incomes are under severe pressure. If young people are to be attracted into farming, we must address the problems facing us which are varied and very complex. They are dealt with in detail in our submission to the committee. The critical problem which governs everything else is farm income.

For several years farmers have been in receipt of premia, now converted into the single farm payment, which have been a cushion against the real market forces. It is hoped the single farm payment will be paid every year for the foreseeable future. It has been reduced and the reduction will be 8% by 2008. This does not take into account the effect of inflation on the payment. While this was a cushion for farmers in the past, the benefits will be greatly reduced in the future. This combined with falling output prices is putting farmers' incomes under unprecedented pressure.

As farmers' representatives we have been referring to the price cost squeeze for many years. The figures on input prices and the cost of what farmers are buying are contained in our submission. I refer to a number of specific areas where farmers face problems. The first is the effect of the WTO on farmers. Little progress has been made since Hong Kong, which has been overtaken on the national stage by the nitrates directive. The WTO will have profound implications for farmers which cannot be ignored.

What was agreed in the mid-term review in Luxembourg must stand. Our view is that a deal is a deal and it is to last until 2013. There can be no further rowing back from that position. We are greatly concerned that the Commission will concede beyond what was agreed in the mid-term review. Agenda 2000 was agreed to last for eight years but the mid-term review reversed that decision and it was completely revamped in 2003. We hope the Government will insist that what was agreed under the mid-term review must stand.

The other aspect of the WTO of concern to farmers is food security. In the last months there has been foot and mouth disease in Brazil and the threat of avian influenza to both human and animal health and to poultry. This should bring home to European consumers that we need our own food and food security. The CAP was established after the the Second World War on the basis of feeding European people. We have become a very wealthy and affluent society and there is a perception we can do without producing our own food. Nothing could be further from the truth. Food security should be a number one priority for an affluent society.

Lessons can be learnt from the United States in this regard. They are very good at promising access to the American market to Third World countries but as soon as the deal is concluded, they find some reason for excluding those products. Ireland and the United States are the two most progressive economies in the WTO. There is much common ground to be found between ourselves and the Europeans in the WTO debate. The European Union has given a promise to eliminate export refunds by 2013. Ireland is dependent on these export refunds more than any other country in Europe. This undertaking was given in the context that the Americans would do the same on the export subsidies they operate in their economy. It is time for the Europeans and the Americans to sit down together and try to ensure that both those economies will still have farmers in the future. If the United States and Europe do not co-operate in the WTO, the farmers in both places will be the losers. I suggest that Ireland should promote the strategy of Ireland and the United States facing the WTO together to ensure that the farmers in those economies have a protected home market to a certain extent.

The submission details sensitive products and the dangers to the dairy and beef sectors. Other sectors will raise these issues with the authorities. There are major problems regarding export refunds and access to our own markets. When the South American beef came in, it had a detrimental effect on beef prices. It brought home how vulnerable we are. The European Union has forecast it will be 530,000 tonnes deficient in beef production, yet these imports undermine the price of our product. The WTO is a complex organisation and we know there are huge pressures to agree a deal. Our point is that European farmers cannot be sacrificed to make a deal and must be protected in any WTO agreement.

Our submission deals also with the nitrates debate. Never has an issue attracted as much attention on the farming front. The issue has been badly handled on a number of fronts. We are very critical of Teagasc, its role in this debate and the consequences. The problem for farmers will not be solved by blaming different organisations or Government Ministers. The nitrates issue will be finally decided in a few weeks. It is imperative that farming should be able to continue once the statutory instrument is fully implemented.

The ordeal of paperwork terrifies farmers. We met the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government last Thursday and put proposals for simplifying the statutory instrument to make it more practical in use and asked him to allow essential leeway in its implementation. It would be unthinkable if farmers were criminalised for minor breaches of this statutory instrument. It is essential that a code of practice be implemented in conjunction with this statutory instrument so that farmers and the various agencies will know exactly what is and is not tolerated. There must be tolerances built in to allow for a farmer exceeding the amount of nitrogen he is allowed to spread or exceeding his stocking rate by a small margin and he should not be immediately criminalised for small breaches. Our organisation does not tolerate pollution and we fully accept that a person found to be polluting is guilty of an offence. However, the new statutory instrument must have some built-in tolerances and a code of practice is essential.

The Government can help farmers with regard to nitrates. There are development charges in 11 county council areas. Farmers must undertake significant investment, unprecedented in the history of agriculture, to upgrade their yards to the required standards under the new nitrates regulations. It is inexcusable that development charges are being imposed on farmers by certain county councils. We raised this point with the Minister, Deputy Roche, last Thursday and we hope it will be addressed in the near future.

A grants scheme has finally been introduced and a grant system is in place for the years 2006, 2007 and 2008. It is essential that the top rate of grant is paid for those three years. Three years could be a very narrow window of opportunity to get the work done because the amount of agricultural builders available has been greatly reduced in recent years and it will be hard to get the building done. It is essential that the grant rate is maintained for the three years.

We feel very aggrieved over the costings for the grants. The standard costings have not been updated since September 2004. We got a commitment from the Government in the last partnership agreement that they would be updated on 1 January each year. Two — let us call them — gale days have passed and standard costings have not been updated. Anybody applying for a grant does so on the basis of costings that are almost two years out of date. This is completely unacceptable and considering the amount of money farmers need to spend, the issue needs to be addressed as soon as possible.

We will not get a derogation from the nitrates directive until the statutory instrument is in place. It is urgent to have the statutory instrument implemented and whatever changes we can get agreed as soon as possible. The derogation is essential for 10,000 or 12,000 farmers who are principally dairy farmers. As the Senator from west Cork will know, many of them are from the west Cork area. They represent the core of our future dairy industry. Our submission makes detailed proposals on a derogation. It is essential that the derogation is framed to allow those farmers keep their competitive advantage. Our advantage over the rest of Europe lies in our ability to grow grass. Those 12,000 farmers have consistently done that as well as, if not better than, anyone else in the world. The association will put considerable work into the derogation. We feel that Teagasc and the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government have a job to do in Brussels. We feel they have not started from a good base to get the changes needed in the derogation. However, they need to focus on it. To have a competitive dairy industry, I cannot stress enough the importance of getting the derogation right. The details are contained in our submission. We want to be able to farm after implementation of the nitrates directive and keep the competitive advantage we have as Irish farmers. We want to keep the paperwork to a minimum to ensure farmers are not criminalised for minor offences.

Two or three weeks ago the Minister announced her proposals to free up quotas and a quota exchange. We are very critical of the Minister's announcement. She has absolutely ruined the milk structure for 2006. There will be virtually no milk in restructuring in 2006. Approximately 35 million to 40 million gallons are traded through restructuring annually and this will reduce to a trickle this year. We have a number of points to make against the quota exchange, which has been inadequately considered by the Minister and her officials. If an exchange is introduced, it is certain that there will be a higher price per quota for active milk producers. Incomes are under severe pressure as it is and there is no way that active dairy farmers can carry any extra cost per quota.

Deputies and Senators from the west and north will recognise that the introduction of an exchange will have implications for the future of ring fencing. If quota in the Connacht Gold area is making 40 cent and quota in the Glanbia area is making €2.50 per gallon, ring fencing cannot survive and it will destabilise. Milk will flow out of the western and northern regions to the south and east. This has huge implications for those rural areas, for milk processing in those areas and for the farmers who want to remain farming in those areas.

In addition the quota will not go to those who need it most. Small to medium-sized producers have always been granted the advantages in restructuring and they have been regarded as priority categories. Those farmers are the ones who want quota the most. We all accept that farmers need to scale up to meet the challenges before them. However, farmers in an exchange situation will not be able to afford the milk quota, which will go to larger producers. In an auction the bigger players always win. Young dairy farmers entering the industry will be faced with a far steeper hill to climb.

Our farms are very fragmented and do not lead to holdings producing large amounts of milk, which is another reason the exchange would not work in the Irish context. The most important point is that we have approximately 24,000 dairy farmers in the country. Quotas will free up on a European basis whether it is in three, four, five or six years time. As a dairy industry are we better off with 10,000 men or 20,000 men milking cows? To face the challenges of the future and with the advantages we have over much of the rest of Europe we would be far better placed with 20,000 dairy farmers rather than 10,000. We met Department officials last week to discuss quota exchange. They told us there would be full consultation during the spring and early summer. I hope they will take our views on board. We would be very grateful if this committee advised the Minister of the dangers in the area of offering up quotas.

The CAP rural development plan will run from 2001 to 2013. It is of vital importance to farmers. Considerable money has been put into farming through the CAP rural development plan in recent years. As an association, we feel €380 million is needed annually from the Exchequer to keep the present schemes in place. These schemes have played a huge part in trying to maintain farmers' incomes in recent years. I refer to schemes such as REPS, early retirement, installation aid, farm waste management, dairy hygiene, disadvantaged areas and forestry. Those are very important schemes for rural Ireland and it is essential that the funding is maintained to keep the schemes operational. This item will be at the top of our shopping list at the partnership discussions. We feel that the Government owes it to rural Ireland at a time when farmers' incomes are under pressure to put this Exchequer funding into rural Ireland. The amount of money coming from Brussels is reducing as we have lost convergence status. The onus is on the Government to make up the shortfall.

We have many problems with the various schemes, on which we will enter detailed discussions with Department officials. Our submission lists three of the main problems, one of which is the budget. For some time we have been pushing for a REPS for intensive farmers. With the new scenario after the introduction of the nitrates directive, restrictions will be placed on those intensive farmers. They feel they meet many of the requirements under REPS and we feel the new REPS 4 gives scope to accommodate those farmers. We feel it should be actively promoted and progressed. It would be a great help to those farmers to meet the cost of compliance when the nitrates directive is implemented.

The farm retirement scheme needs to be revamped and upgraded. The old scheme has had a number of problems and there has been talk of scrapping it. We feel the farm retirement scheme has a very important role to play in the structural change required to meet the modern challenges facing us. We feel a number of things can be done. First, the maximum pension should be increased to €18,000 per annum. That would be a major improvement. Second, some of the anomalies relating to age and income limits should be abolished. The early retirement scheme offers great opportunities to help to achieve the restructuring that is needed.

I would like to outline what the Government can do to facilitate land restructuring. We all know that farmers will need greater scale in the future. The ICMSA does not agree that increases in scale along the lines of those suggested by Professor Gerry Boyle two or three months ago are needed. He said in the farming section of the Irish Independent that farmers will require 140,000 gallons of milk if they are to earn a modest income. I will mention some of the things that the Government can do to provide for the increases in scale which are needed. It can take action in respect of stamp duty, for example. The first concessions relating to stamp duty were included in the second-last Finance Bill, when it was deemed that the exchange of land was to be exempt from stamp duty. The ICMSA believes this measure needs to be extended significantly. Full-time farmers have to be given an advantage over non-farmers in the stamp duty exemption scheme. The rate of stamp duty on the purchase of land is currently 9%, which makes it virtually impossible for farmers to buy land. One of the offshoots of our vibrant economy is that many non-farmers are buying agricultural land. If the Government is to help farmers to compete, it has to do something to tilt the balance in favour of them. It could do that very easily by making changes to the stamp duty regulations to assist full-time farmers.

There has been a great deal of criticism of the rule under which farmers have to pay capital gains tax of 20% to the Government when their lands are compulsorily purchased. A roll-over relief facility needs to be introduced in cases of exchanges of assets by farmers. We are aware that holdings in this country are fragmented, but the capital gains tax system makes it hard for farmers to sell outlying areas of their farms to buy lands nearer home. That has to be addressed by ensuring that farmers who are trying to consolidate their holdings are exempt from capital gains tax. By the time they have paid capital gains tax and stamp duty, and are trying to purchase land nearer home, farmers may have lost one third of the money they were paid for the land they sold. That makes it virtually impossible for them to consolidate their farms. If dairy farmers' lands are not easily accessible from their milking parlours, such lands are of no use to them for production. Some simple things could be done to make the consolidation of holdings, which should be a priority, much simpler for farmers.

The ICMSA is in favour of the introduction of tax relief on the purchase of land. Full-time farmers should be allowed to write off the purchase of land as an income expense against taxation. Such a break would allow full-time farmers to compete in the purchase of land, the cost of which is constantly increasing. Tax exemptions are in place for the leasing of land on five-year and seven-year leases. The ICMSA strongly believes that an anomaly in this regard — that leases between family members are not eligible for such an exemption — has not been addressed by successive Ministers for Finance. We have been told by Ministers that family leases are not included in the scheme in the interests of preventing tax avoidance. We have responded by pointing out that if such leases were provided for in the context of the early retirement scheme, there would be no question of tax avoidance.

The parent who hands over the land in such circumstances signs a form to declare that he or she has ceased farming completely. Therefore, the issue of tax avoidance does not arise. The ICMSA, which prides itself on its representation of farm families, finds it hard to accept that if a father leases land to his son he cannot be eligible for tax exemption, but if he leases it to a stranger from four or five miles away he is eligible for a fairly sizeable tax exemption. We need to address such unfair anti-family regulations, which do not help those of us who are trying to help farm families to stay in rural Ireland.

I would like to speak about the issues of over-regulation and compliance costs. As someone who attends farmers' meetings a couple of nights each week, I can assure the committee that such issues annoy farmers more than anything else. Farmers were promised they would be given the freedom to farm after the mid-term review, but the opposite has been the case. The farming sector is highly over-regulated at present. Farmers have to deal with cross-compliance regulations, the nitrates directive, the new veterinary medicine regulations, tuberculosis testing, BSE rules, animal transport regulations and the rules relating to special areas of conservation. New legislation has been introduced to provide for veterinary medicine regulations. The cost of veterinary medicine has increased by 25% since 1996. In the same time, the costs of products for plant protection, to which similar regulations are not attached, have increased by just 0.8%. Such statistics indicate that compliance measures are taking a great deal of money from the pockets of farmers.

Dairy farmers have to pay a range of disease levies. A dairy farmer who is producing 50,000 gallons of milk has to pay €480 in levies to the Government each year. Given that farm incomes are under pressure at present, the ICMSA believes that such levies should be suspended for at least two years, until we see how the markets respond. While €480 does not mean much to the Exchequer, the suspension of the levies would show that the Government seriously intends to address the problem of farmers' incomes. It would be seen by farmers as an indication that the Government is trying to do something to solve their income problems. It would not cost a significant amount of money, in the context of the overall Exchequer receipts, but it would demonstrate a willingness on the Government's part to try to help farmers.

I have outlined some of the problems which are being faced by farmers. The policy makers are not helping farmers by imposing many charges, increasing the levels of bureaucracy and reducing their level of support for the farming sector in general. That needs to change if the future of farming is to be protected. Holiday homes and non-farm families are welcome in rural Ireland, but it would be a very sorry and much poorer place without farmers and a vibrant farming industry.

The ICMSA believes that the family farm structure is worth protecting. Our policy makers must take some steps in that regard before it is too late. The joint committee can play an important role in redirecting the focus of agricultural policy to ensure it truly supports the family farm structure. As I said, the protection of farm incomes will help to keep that structure intact.

I thank Mr. Cahill for an intense submission. It is clear that he put a great deal of effort into it. I compliment him and his ICMSA colleagues on the submission. I invite members of the joint committee to ask some questions.

I congratulate Mr. Cahill on his election as president of the ICMSA. I wish him the best of luck in the long and challenging term that is ahead of him. I welcome Mr. Dolan and Mr. Enright — the permanent government — to this meeting and wish them the best of luck in their work with the new president. I compliment the ICMSA on its extremely comprehensive presentation, which covered most of the issues of daily concern to farmers at present. Mr. Cahill mentioned everything bar the kitchen sink. I will not address all the issues, but I would like to discuss some of them. I am sure my colleagues will refer to some of the issues I do not mention.

I will begin by speaking about the WTO situation. The ICMSA correctly stated that the EU as a whole has ignored the issue of food security. Something like the energy crisis that was faced by the EU, when there were problems with the gas supply from Russia, will be needed before the penny eventually drops with the EU that our food security is under threat. If the French dockers were to go on strike, the European Commission would take a completely different attitude to imports from outside the Union and support for agriculture in the EU.

From its discussions at European level, what indications did the Commission give the ICMSA regarding parallelism between the proposals in the farm Bill in the United States and the abolition of export refunds in the European Union? It is my impression that the Commission decided that export refunds will be abolished in 2013, regardless of what takes place elsewhere. It has already started to decommission, as it were, current structures by moving to abolish the pre-payment of export refunds within six months. This is the first step down the slippery slope of dismantling export refunds. The United States also has an export refund system, albeit one that is more complicated, in place. Will the delegation comment?

On the Minister's announcement regarding the restructuring of milk quota, I agree with many of the points the delegation made on her proposals. She has damaged the 2006 restructuring programme by making the announcement in conjunction with the proposals for the period from 2007 onwards. This issue was raised by my colleague, Deputy Crawford, on a number of occasions. What is the delegation's view on introducing regional quotas? The United Kingdom, for example, has a deficit in production of approximately 300 million litres of milk per annum, based on its quota system. If we had a regional quota structure, sufficient milk would be available to meet some of the demand. I ask the delegation to comment.

Having examined the position in a number of other European countries, it appears Ireland has more movement of quota among farmers under the current restructuring scheme than other states, even those where there is greater flexibility and where a cap is not imposed on the price or sale of quota. At present, an average of approximately 3.3% of milk quota is restructured here every year. In many other countries in Europe, the figure is approximately one third of the Irish figure. As returns on milk production reduce, the Commission is attempting to ensure the EU meets world market prices. At the same time, farmers will be required to borrow to purchase milk quota. The latter appears illogical, particularly in light of the fact that it will soon be abolished if Commission plans proceed. Will this present challenges for the ICMSA?

On the issue of bureaucracy, Mr. Cahill's comments on veterinary medicine rules are correct. I understand that the European Union will not give Ireland an extensive exemption list and that the law, as it stands, will be enforced from 1 January 2007. This means that prescriptions will be required in respect of fluke and worm drenches and vaccines. Has the ICMSA discussed this issue with the Department? Has it been informed at European level that the medicines to which I referred will be precluded from the rules and regulations? Without such exemptions, the current ludicrous position will become appalling.

On the issue of red tape and the nitrates directive science has been lacking in this debate. Teagasc recently published new scientific data but it appears that the Government is not prepared to support it at European level. What is the delegation's view of the fact that farmers do not realise the implications of the directive? Having travelled around the country in recent weeks, I have concluded that farmers do not realise that anyone who has spread slurry since 1 February this year is breaking the law because we do not have ground temperatures of 6 degrees Celsius. Will it not prove physically impossible for farmers to comply with many of the regulations laid down in the nitrates directive?

I understand that the discussions regarding the derogation from the nitrates directive, which is critically important for the future survival of many intensive farmers, particularly those in the dairy industry, have been suspended until such time as discussions on the statutory instrument are completed. Does the delegation share that view? What will be the implications of a failure — as appears likely — to secure a derogation by the middle of this year?

I welcome the delegation and thank it for a comprehensive report. I congratulate Mr. Cahill from the premier county on his appointment as president of the ICSMA. I wish him well and have no doubt that the ICSMA will become the pre-eminent organisation in his capable hands. Regardless of their politics, men from County Tipperary will stand shoulder to shoulder to protect the interests of farmers.

The Senator is fond of giving a shoulder.

Almost all the leaders of the farming organisations are from County Tipperary.

Everything will be well in agriculture when County Tipperary people run all the farming organisations.

Members will agree with most of the ICSMA submission. We hope that Mr. Cahill will succeed in realising his vision for agriculture and achieving most, if not all, his aims and ambitions during his term of office.

Mr. Cahill appears to accept as inevitable the introduction of the nitrates directive. He was also critical of Teagasc. The Minister recently launched a report outlining 166 actions — some people would describe them as rhetoric — in agriculture up to 2015. The cornerstone of the report is research and development and Teagasc will be the driver of this development. In view of Mr. Cahill's concerns about Teagasc and the apparent refusal of the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to accept the scientific advice on nitrates issued by Teagasc, what role will the organisation play in agriculture in future?

On stamp duty, the ICSMA is seeking relief for full-time farmers. I suggest that young and part-time farmers who would be in a position to take up full-time farming if they had additional resources should also be exempt from stamp relief. The AgriVision 2015 report indicated there will only be 100,000 farmers left in 2015. Will Mr. Cahill comment on this serious matter? He stressed the key importance of income for members of the farming community. The report does not mention farm incomes, ignores the farming business and focuses exclusively on agrifood. What is Mr. Cahill's opinion of the AgriVision report, which is viewed as the saviour of agriculture? I accept the ICMSA is primarily concerned with the dairy sector, but does it have any proposals for alternative farm enterprises such as the growing of crops for energy or other ideas about how income can be derived from farming? That is the key to the future. As Mr. Cahill stated, farmers can derive income from the production of biofuel crops.

I, too, welcome Mr. Cahill and his team, Mr. Kieran Dolan and Mr. John Enright. I congratulate Mr. Cahill on his great victory. It is always good to win an election. I wish him well in the challenging years ahead.

Mr. Cahill has made many pertinent points and it would be difficult to argue with most of them. However, I do not share his downbeat attitude about the future of farming, although I accept we are facing serious challenges. I am aware a number of hard decisions will have to be made in the future.

Mr. Cahill referred to development charges. The new grant system is a good one but there is no doubt it will involve a great deal of work. Many applications have already been submitted. It is important that discussions would take place with local authorities about development charges. These charges affect everybody, including builders. Farmers will have to look carefully at this matter in future.

Reference was also made to the milk quota. I welcome the fact that it is divorced from land sales. That is a good thing. I do not have a solution to this issue but we should look at giving compensation in a case where a farmer with 25,000 or 30,000 gallons, who has worked hard to improve his holding, and having reared his family who are not interested in farming, wants to retire. I am not sure how this can be done. A gallon of milk is only worth so much and a man taking over a quota cannot afford to pay a great deal for it. At the same time, the farmer selling the milk quota should not be forced to give it away for nothing. The Finnish system is that 50% of the quota is put on the open market and the other 50% is retained for those people who are unable to compete on the open market. I have no definite views on the matter but accept there are two sides to it.

I will not go on at length. I welcome the president of the ICMSA to the committee and wish him well in what will be a challenging time ahead.

Like other speakers, I welcome the ICMSA delegation. I extend a particular welcome to the new president of the ICMSA and congratulate him on his elevation to this position. Leadership of any organisation is never easy but in the challenging and changing times ahead, the president will need a lot of luck. I wish him well.

The agriculture sector, which Mr. Cahill is here to talk about, also needs luck. I wish to share some thoughts with the delegation. I can identify with the many questions that have been asked and many of the points that have been made. The single greatest issue to which the president adverted is the food security of Europe. It has been proposed that Commissioner Mandelson will represent Europe. We are part of Europe. When I refer to Europe, I include Ireland. Having ensured there would be no more war in Europe, food security remained the only other foundation policy of the EU. The EU came into being because of the scarcity of food. We are now coming into that era again of not having a guaranteed sufficiency of food within the borders of the EU and Mr. Mandelson is quite prepared to trade it away further. Currently 600,000 tonnes of meat are allowed into Europe. Mr. Mandelson has proposed increasing that to 1.3 million tonnes. If he succeeds in that, together with Europe, Australia and others, then food supply in Europe will be terminated.

This is a serious issue. I am glad the president of the ICMSA referred to this matter. We generally focus on what happens within this island yet what happens here is insignificant when compared with the major part of Europe. While we all say we need more milk, more beef and so on, and better prices for products, the fact is that if an agreement is reached at the World Trade Organisation talks which will allow into Europe an increased share of food product, it will displace markets for us, both here in Ireland and in Europe. This will have a negative effect on Europe and Ireland. Against that background I welcome the emphasis Mr. Cahill has placed on this matter by making it his No. 1 point. We must all sail that boat together.

Mr. Cahill referred to milk quota. Would he favour doing away with quota at this point? The dairy sector will be the major proponent of agriculture in Ireland in the foreseeable future. I think the dairy industry will survive well here. I agree with Mr. Cahill. Like him, I would prefer to see 20,000 farmers producing our milk share rather than 10,000. We need a dairy sector and a processing industry that is modernised and is prepared to meet the challenges ahead. It is no good comparing the situation with five, ten, 15 or 20 years ago. We must look to the future. What is Mr. Cahill's view on milk quota? Should it be kept and should farmers be allowed to produce milk if they have the competency to do so? Is there a fear that the national milk quota may not be filled next year or the year after?

Challenges and changing times are ahead for all farming sectors. In fairness to the ICMSA, while it is a leader in the dairy sector, it takes an interest in most areas of farming. I compliment the ICMSA on this. Rural development will be required to keep a sustained and sustainable rural population and we need to adopt different policies to encourage young people to become involved. Reference has been made to alternative land use. I have been saying this for some time. This is essential for the energy focus of Europe today and for some measure of security for our island. I have said to the ICMSA in the past that it should focus on this issue. I also made this point to the IFA. We should — rather belatedly — give serious thought to alternative land use. If we do not have energy, we will not have food or transport. We are capable of using land in an alternative manner. Policies should be designed to source energy.

I welcome the ICMSA representatives and wish Jackie Cahill all the best as president of the organisation. Deputy Naughten has covered many of the issues that arise and, to save time, I will not refer to all of them.

Let us consider the serious implications of the nitrates directive. There are dairy farmers in Cavan-Monaghan, as well as in west Cork, for whom the directive will have serious implications. When one considers that County Cavan has a lake for every day of the year and there are many rivers feeding those lakes, one will realise how many farmers in the county will not be allowed to spread slurry. This, combined with the intensity of pig production in the county, presents a real problem. Mr. Cahill has said there is no point going back over history but he should note that circumstances are worse than they could be.

What indications is the ICMSA getting from Brussels that the European Union will accept the scientific evidence of Teagasc, which clearly is not being pushed by the Ministers for Agriculture and Food and the Environment, Heritage and Local Government? I understand there were personnel representing them in Brussels recently. Teagasc spent hours trying to argue its case but received no support from the respective Departments. This is very serious and will have disastrous consequences for intensive farmers, be they dairy, beef, poultry, pig or mushroom farmers. We must all work to ensure there will be leeway because dependence on a derogation alone will not benefit pig or poultry farmers because they do not spread the manure produced on their own land.

The issue of quota referred to by Mr. Cahill is very dear to my heart. I asked questions of the Minister last Wednesday and was not only shocked but also saddened and amazed by the replies. It is clear the proposal has not been thought out. I tabled a question to the Minister to determine the cost of advertising the restructuring scheme for 2006 which has already been killed off completely. There is not much point in buying space in the Irish Independent and the Irish Farmers’ Journal to promote a scheme that is now dead. This is frightening.

Reference was made to the circumstances in Finland but anybody who has been there will realise quickly that its dairy industry is too different from ours to be comparable. We have a dairy industry of which we can be proud. If the proposed regulations are to be accepted — I beg the ICMSA to consider them very seriously from a national point of view — the quota will be moved from disadvantaged areas to areas with better land. The Minister has admitted and made the case in Brussels that we need to provide for 22 weeks' storage in counties Cavan, Monaghan, Leitrim and Donegal. This gives some indication of the extra costs incurred in housing cattle for the six months of winter. It is sometimes only two months in the deep south. One will have to compete in a mart or through an agent or other body to retain the quota in disadvantaged areas. As Deputy Naughten asked, can we not try to increase the quota to make allowances for those in great need in the south rather than shifting it there?

On dairy farming, a farmer in County Cavan can sell his or her quota to a farmer in County Waterford or County Wicklow, or anywhere in the sunny south-east, through Glanbia. Farmers of North Connacht Farmers Co-operative could sell theirs to farmers in County Tipperary because they are in the one group. However, if there is a difference of £1 per gallon — I am talking in old money terms — how can one legally say to a farmer that he or she is not entitled to it? Some might not remember the transfer many years ago of one of the biggest quotas in the country from north Donegal to west Cork. This matter must be considered very carefully.

As a Member representing a constituency very much characterised by divided farmland, I realise the issue of stamp duty and capital gains tax on the transfer of land needs to addressed. Otherwise farmers will not be able to survive. No young farmer can sell 30 acres of land three miles down the road from him or her to buy land beside his or her main holding if he or she has to pay tax at a rate of 20%, given that the land he or she is selling may be purchased by some businessman purely for the sake of investment.

I, too, welcome the deputation and congratulate Mr. Cahill on his election as president of the ICMSA. I wish him well in his career. I apologise for missing the presentation — I was actually meeting a deputation of pig farmers from County Donegal.

I read some of the ICMSA's submission and will stick to the issue of the nitrates directive, as did some other members. Having spoken to some farmers from north Donegal, I realise the outlook is very bleak. It is imperative that all representatives in the Dáil speak to both Ministers on the matter. It is imperative that we get them to agree on the document presented by Teagasc, which was signed by 24 scientists. If this does not happen, as members stated, the outlook will be very bleak. It will herald the end for a large majority of pig farmers and make life very difficult for beef farmers. The ICMSA's report was very well put together.

I thank Mr. Cahill for his presentation, in which he raised many issues. I fully agree with him on the tax exemption for leases between families, an issue which should definitely be examined. Roll-over relief for young farmers who have a suitable plot of land to sell and wish to buy land to consolidate their original farm holding should be examined. The farmer who sells land pays tax at the rate of 20% on it, a big bite out of the money he or she makes, which does not help him or her to buy more land. We have raised this issue with the Minister on more than one occasion.

Cross-compliance is getting easier. Farmers are notified two days in advance of an inspection, at least that is the theory.

I wanted to makes these points and fully support Mr. Cahill's call. The issues involved have been raised with the Minister and I hope something can be done about them.

Mr. Cahill

The European Commission is intent on removing export refunds as soon as possible. The difficulties in the butter market bring this home. We must export butter from the European Union but when the Commission tells us it is returning 12 cent per gallon less than cheese, it is a serious matter and puts the milk markets under severe pressure. The Americans are operating on a nod and a wink basis. The Commission must stand its ground and make no further concessions until the United States makes concrete proposals. We cannot continue to concede ground without corresponding concessions from the other side.

A number of questions focused on the quota exchange, while Deputy Naughten mentioned regional bases. We proposed a European superlevy which would have scope to secure extra quota for the country. There are three stocks — for the person, the processor and the country. If the processor or the country is under quota, there is no superlevy. We propose a fourth stock where, if the European Union was under quota, there would still not be a superlevy. This would allow Irish farmers to fill some of the quota not filled elsewhere in Europe. We should work on this concept. A European superlevy, without increasing costs to farmers, might give scope for an increase in Irish milk production.

We have been critical of Teagasc which exists to service farmers. During the years it has given much useful advice but it knew the nitrates directive was coming. Last November the four farming organisations met Teagasc board members to put together a document acceptable to farmers. Teagasc should have done this 12 months ago. Its delay in producing a document has compounded our problems in Brussels in securing changes to the statutory instrument. The timeframe is short and I am worried there will be only minimal changes to it. We must secure any possible changes because even minor changes could have a huge effect for farmers, reducing the number of bans. The derogation is suspended until the statutory instrument is agreed. A number of farmers are in trouble and breaking the law, as it stands, operating on a wing and a prayer that they will be okay until the derogation is secured. As they are contravening the law, it is essential the derogation is secured as soon as possible.

I was strongly against the 2015 agri report as it did not focus on farm incomes, the most important point. There was nothing in the report to say how they might be increased and we felt it was waffle. Any report on what the position in farming will be in 2015 that does not focus on incomes is a waste of time.

The reputation of Teagasc among farmers has been severely damaged by the nitrates issue and it will take a long time to recover. Luckily, discussion groups and individual advisers have a good relationship with farmers and it is through them that the organisation will have to rebuild its reputation. Farmers will need Teagasc advice in meeting the challenges of the future but the hierarchy in Teagasc enjoys a very low reputation among farmers.

There must be concessions on stamp duty, something the committee recognises. We should extend it beyond full-time farmers. Having met the Minister for Finance, we know that securing concessions will be difficult. We want to keep the focus as narrow as possible to secure the concession first. Then, if it works, we could try to widen it.

Alternative land use must be looked at. What will the land on which sugar was grown be used for? As an association, we are fortunate that our rural development chairman, Mr. Tommy Cooke, is probably the most knowledgable farmer in the country on alternative energy sources, be it wind, elephant grass or willow. He is chairman of Meitheal na Gaoithe and deeply involved in the issues of alternative energy, land use and farm waste. We recognise that there must be scope for alternative land use. As the price of oil continues to rise, it is becoming more economically viable, which is welcome. The more land that is taken out of use, the more traditional farm pursuits such as dairy and beef farming will be helped. Land is now being used for willow and rape seed crop production across the country but the Government must offer incentives to ensure it is economically viable, particularly in terms of excise duty. It has not done nearly enough to promote it.

Deputy Wilkinson has said we have a downbeat view of the future of farming, something of which we have been accused for many years. Unfortunately, the figures bear out what we are saying. We must attract young people into farming if it is to survive. We hope it will be recognised here and in Brussels that income must be addressed for Irish and European farmers.

Charges are another stumbling block to be addressed. In Waterford the development charge for farm buildings is a little over €5,000 but some counties have no charges. Deputy Wilkinson's part of the country is hungry for quota but he accepts that whatever is done about quota must not involve extra costs for the person staying in the industry. We suggested that a new retirement scheme could be devised through the Exchequer to help the person who wants to exit farming without imposing a cost on the one continuing to milk cows.

Food security is the point on which we can win the battle in Brussels to protect European farm families as recent events have shown. We all have an obligation to work on that issue and ensure that European farmers can feed their people.

We must have a rational debate on the benefit of milk quotas when the output is restricted. They were introduced in 1983 or 1984 to support and guarantee a reasonable milk price for dairy farmers but almost all the supports have been taken away. It is possible to argue that without them, milk quotas are virtually redundant. We must examine the implications for the country of a 10% or 15% increase in milk production. One of the main problems is that the facility for milk processing is not available. Many plants have difficulty handling the present quantity of milk at peak times. Increased production would require extra processing capacity which raises the problem of whether the processing sector could finance it.

I agree with Deputy Crawford on bad handling by Teagasc. We have criticised it and the Department from the outset. If our association had been heeded we would not have the present problems with nitrates. We strongly promoted the notion of nitrate vulnerable zones. They would have kept three quarters of the country out of the problem and could have been achieved by way of a statutory instrument. It would be better if only 25% of the country was experiencing this difficulty. We made this point with Deputy Naughten when it was being debated but it did not happen. We could go back over a long list of mistakes made in respect of nitrates but we must be able to farm when this statutory instrument is implemented. There is a small window for achieving changes and the maximum effort must be made to achieve them.

I am not hopeful that Brussels will accept the Teagasc document. I blame Teagasc. Our policy is to tell members how we see it. We had a meeting recently with the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Roche, and we intend to have another meeting with his officials soon. There is scope for significant changes but the opportunity is narrowing. There is an urgency regarding achieving the derogation and the longer the statutory instrument is delayed the harder it will be to achieve meaningful changes.

Intensive farming must survive. We are able to grow grass better than anyone else and we must be allowed to do so when the dust settles. We and Deputy Crawford are on the same wavelength in respect of quotas. Our association was the first to comment on the Minister's remarks about quota exchange and was accused of being negative at the time. When we met the officials in her Department last week and put the hard questions to them, they had few answers on how this quota exchange would work and what benefit it would have for ordinary farmers. The management of Glanbia has pushed for this exchange and said that 73% of its milk suppliers want 52% more quota. However one works out that equation, there is not enough milk to go around and the price will spiral. They will have to come up with a better concept than allowing milk into an auction system with that kind of demand.

The pig sector faces major problems because of the phosphorous element in the nitrates directive. We met the pig farmers twice or three times and they had an input into our submissions to the various officials. We met them again last Monday and the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government happened to be in the hotel where we were meeting. He was developing a complex that we were following him around the country. We had a worthwhile discussion with the pig farmers, some of whom also have dairy enterprises, and many of them use the spread lands of our members to get rid of pig manure. There is an opportunity in the next two or three weeks to achieve changes in the statutory instrument that will ease the problems of those farmers.

The 30% roll-over relief tax makes it impossible for farmers to consolidate their holdings. Senator Scanlon said that cross-compliance was getting easier but I cannot agree. It might be that one is not receiving official notice of inspections but it is becoming like the Aintree race course in that the fences are being made higher and stiffer and it is hard to get around them and avoid penalties. We may get a nod and a wink as to when the inspectors are coming.

Mr. Cahill should be wary of the Chairman.

Mr. Cahill

It is virtually impossible to get a clear round.

Mr. Kieran Dolan

On export subsidies and parallelism, our understanding is that the US will abolish the export credit regime it has in place. However, New Zealand and other countries with state-exporting enterprises are unlikely to do so without pressure. They will maintain they are not causing distortion in the world market.

Equally, there is much confusion surrounding food aid. Some countries see no difficulty in food aid, once delivered to the recipient country, being traded again. Trading in food aid is a most peculiar situation. The EU Ministers for Agriculture on returning from the Hong Kong talks were faced with the Commission's proposal to abolish export refunds on live cattle. There is some fixation with export refunds. Some 90 years ago, the US introduced the first state support for its cotton markets. The US, the home of free enterprise, saw it as essential to regulate that market. In Hong Kong there was a debate on cotton production. The US had no difficulty in going to battle with cotton producers in Africa and Bangladesh. The most open and democratic society believed it needed to protect its market. It is not a question of it exploiting other countries.

We have more in common with the US on the WTO talks in protecting our markets. It is fortunate that the former Taoiseach, Mr. John Bruton, is the EU ambassador to the US. The organisation aims to have discussions with him on this. The EU and the US can both secure their markets.

We have done some work on how exposed Ireland is with food imports. It is like if a levee gives way in one spot, the whole land is flooded. For example, take the scenario of imports into the EU undermining milk production to the extent that it brings about bankruptcy of producers. If the world price then increases, how long will it take for the dairy industry in Europe to respond to that? It will take eight to ten years. In the case of beef production, it will take three years. This still does not deal with other aspects of food security such as volume and food quality.

On the question of phasing out export subsidies, it seems parallelism will be delivered. If it is not, then the EU will not abolish export subsides.

While no great progress has been made with the overall discussions, the danger is that small technical changes are agreed at committee level. These can amount to a substantial break in supports.

We believe our proposals on the nitrates directive are well thought out. The Commission has responded to the Teagasc proposals. Unfortunately, the Teagasc proposal put forward increased rates for phosphorous and nitrogen. It also contained a complex classification system. We are proposing a modification of the document which we believe is feasible and legal. We hope the relevant Ministers will provide for technical discussions with the farm organisations so that it can be put to bed and we can concentrate on the derogation document.

One cannot expect a complicated statutory instrument to be implemented immediately. A code of practice needs to be drawn up with guidelines on how inspectors will operate and what agency will be involved.

The milk production quota was one of the few national agricultural policies that was working but we now want to undermine it. The quota exchange system will deliver a quota at a huge cost. It will be somewhere in the region of €100 million extra in three or four years for those farmers who remain in milk production. How will it be funded? The restructuring scheme has operated for 18 years and has brought about positive change. The ICMSA is willing to discuss how it may be improved.

The debate in Brussels has moved on from whether quotas should continue beyond 2009. The proposed changes will see a rise in costs from 80 cent per gallon to €2 per gallon. We would want to be mad to allow this. If milk production is to be moved from the Cavan-Monaghan area and the west to the south, let us be upfront about how such a move will affect rural development and co-operative society infrastructure. There will be a mismatch between processing capacity in the south east. We should continue with the restructuring scheme for the next three years until we see what emerges. Should it happen that EU prices in the dairy sector are at world prices, we should then not be considering a milk quota system. There are major issues that need to be resolved.

The ICMSA is concerned that there has been a vague approach at departmental level to alternative energy projects. In our pre-budget meetings with the Minister for Finance, we had proposals on tax reliefs on alternative energy projects. He informed us until such time as there was a comprehensive energy policy, he could not deal with individual aspects of taxation. In terms of alternative land use, most definitely there is need for this. The committee is aware that the Commission is very concerned about our policy on energy. As a society we need to link up our commitments internationally in terms of climate change, energy and environment. We can play a role and we have done as regards wind energy. We have been involved in a number of farms in west Cork. There are difficulties there with access to the grid and the cost of same and, indeed, farmers' concerns that individual private enterprise projects are being located in particular areas and they are expected to allow access across their land. It is one matter for the ESB, going back to the early days in the 1920s and subsequent legislation-——

It was 1929.

Mr. Dolan

I thank the Senator. Now farmers are aggrieved that the legislation has been changed quietly, and this gives private enterprise and promoters the same standing, in effect, as the ESB. This is something we need to look at. As regards that whole area I believe that farmers and farming can deliver within an overall approach, and time has run out for us to some extent. We will play our part. As Mr. Cahill has said, this issue has been addressed by us and we have come up with policies not just on biofuels, but also forestry, biomass and wind energy.

My last point is about Teagasc. Someone mentioned the increased role envisaged for Teagasc for the future. We should differentiate between past and future performance. We need a world-class research institution for the agriculture and food sector. It is high time for senior management within Teagasc or in the Department of Agriculture and Food, which is responsible for this area, to ensure there is a robust comprehensive peer review of the research being undertaken by Teagasc. It is no use having research that does not stand up to the highest standards internationally. I am not suggesting for a moment that this is not the case, but research on this level shows that individuals both in the private sector and among the public at large must be fully confident that the findings stand up. It will be to Teagasc's benefit to ensure that there is full peer review of all its activities.

On the issue of veterinary medicines, as raised by Deputy Naughten, when the Minister announced the changes in the regulations, it was thought initially that derogation would solve a great many problems. The information the committee has is similar to ours, namely, that derogation is extremely restrictive. Many of the products we use at the moment are available from licensed merchants or are prescription only exempt, POME. In line with the derogation, many of those products will require prescriptions. From our perspective the Department needs to ask the Commission to allow greater flexibility. There is the fall-back position as regards "the suitably qualified person". However, much more paperwork is involved in terms of prescriptions etc. from the farmer's perspective. Therefore, more work must be done at EU level to try to get the terms of the derogation widened. From our perspective all licensed merchant and POME products, typically vaccines, should fall within the terms of the derogation.

The other issue about veterinary medicines of concern to our members is intramammaries. We have an effective control system in place with our co-ops at present and they are talking about bringing in prescriptions in that regard. This will have to be simplified and we are still awaiting proposals from the Department.

We could stay here all night, but I do not want to do that. I have a few brief points to make. As regards the nitrates directive I have a question for Mr. Cahill. From his perspective, is science the priority or is it just political expediency? My perception is that science has gone out the window, so to speak, at this stage. Perhaps he will comment on that because it is creating a great amount of frustration at the moment.

As regards the nitrates directive, a study on soil sampling was published recently in the UK. Two separate soil samples were taken from arable farms and sent to four different laboratories and there were eight results. Under the SI mechanism as it stands, which is legally binding, if an official from the Department of Agriculture and Food or from a local authority decides to take a soil sample and it exceeds the stipulated nitrogen level, the farmer is liable on prosecution to up to six months in jail and can be fined up to €3,000. Does Mr. Cahill believe that is acceptable? Is he aware of the problem concerning the variations in soil sampling and does it not make a complete farce of the law?

I want to come back to a reference made by my colleague, Deputy Wilkinson, to the Finnish system for milk quota. I am open to correction, but my understanding is that some of the quota is sent to the regional government and is redistributed among young farmers and so forth. The other half of the quota that goes to the open market is also regionalised and cannot be sold in any part of Finland. It can only be sold on the open market within the particular region. Most countries in Europe, where there is a healthy turnover of milk quota, have regional systems in place and they have worked quite effectively. Perhaps the ICMSA will have a comment to make in this regard.

I could seriously disagree, but we will leave that. I asked whether we will fill the quotas next year and the year after. Much emphasis is being put on the policy announced recently by the Minister, and relative to 2006. If we all accept that there will be serious discussions, negotiations and possibly decisions taken as early as 2008, show me the farmer who will pay a lot of money for a litre of milk from the fellow who is giving it up. This is why it is critically important that the farming organisations should come to a very clear decision, because it will be made for them. Whether they like it, the decision will come from Europe, relative to quotas. That is why I pose the question to a serious organisation such as the ICMSA: what is its view on the milk quota going sooner rather than later? Is it not to the advantage of Ireland? The point about production should be pursued.

We all like to see the outlying areas producing milk and doing all these things. If we go back 30 or 40 years, there were three or four sows in every farmyard and turkeys and chickens at every barn door. There are about 550 pig producers in this country, in the Cavan-Monaghan area, Limerick and a few more places. Farming has synchronised into very definite productive lines. Is the ICMSA saying that will not happen to dairying or does it want to see it die?

Is there any logic to the decision to make the quota viable through the open market? Is it simply that there are more votes in those who are retiring than in the young farmers who may stay in farming? I can see no other logic to this. It is illogical.

I wish to raise an issue which is dear to my heart and for which I would like the support of the ICMSA, namely, planning permission for young couples, regardless of whether they are engaged in farming. I am sure the ICMSA has problems throughout the country in this regard. The Minister changed the guidelines last year whereby sterilisation can be an issue only in extreme circumstances. Sterilisation was applied in cases where farmers got perhaps two planning permissions from 70 to 100 acres of land. My county council is only removing such sterilisations in extreme circumstances.

It is an unfair situation. When farmers need to sell a site to stay above water, they cannot do so. Young local couples may try to buy a site from a local farmer but, because of the sterilisation, they are deprived from doing so. The IFA was fully supportive on this issue, as I am sure the ICMSA will be. I have requested, through the clerk of the committee, that the Minister and the county managers' association would come before the committee. I hope we will have a good discussion with them and that common sense will prevail. The situation is unfair. The same problems arise throughout the country. I hope the ICMSA will support me in this regard.

I support the Chairman on this issue. Given the nitrates issue, in particular as it refers to Cavan and Monaghan, farmers must erect buildings. If they cannot sell a site to pay for building, they will be out of business.

They will be out of business.

If the Minister made the order in the directive regarding the planning permission——

I thought that was part and parcel of the guidelines for future planning permission.

If he made an order, how can the county managers be implementing a policy——

I refer to sterilisations which were applied in the years prior to the Minister changing the guidelines.

Therefore, from now on they cannot——

Only in extreme circumstances. However, sterilisations were applied over the years. In the 1980s, after a couple of planning permissions, sterilisation would be applied on 70 or 80 acres of land. It is not good enough that county mangers will not relax the regulations.

I was not aware that they are doing something illegal.

To be fair, they are not doing anything illegal. However, if the Minister has changed the guidelines for the future, why can local authorities not remove sterilisations that have been in place for ten or 15 years?

Mr. Cahill

We will fully support the Chairman in this regard. A farmer may want to sell a site for economic reasons, whether in regard to a family settlement, an investment in a farmyard or to finance the purchase of land. It is completely unfair that farmers are being spancelled in this way. It is an issue we have raised in a number of fora and one we will continue to push. Anything we could do with the committee, we will do.

With regard to Deputy Naughten's question on the nitrates directive, all the associations put much work into the Teagasc document. We fervently hope that the document will be acceptable in Brussels. If it is acceptable in Brussels, it will bring the necessary changes to the statutory instrument that will definitely help farmers. Whether it is political expediency, or whether science is being thrown out the window, the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government tells us that the Teagasc document is not finding favour in Brussels. We stressed to the Minister that it must be accepted and we have pushed the issue as far as we possibly can.

A final decision will be made in two to three weeks. We cannot stick our heads in the sand. We must try to achieve what changes we can. Even if the Teagasc document is not accepted, other changes can be made to the statutory instrument. It is essential that we put our shoulders to the wheel and we must not give up hope that the Commission will accept the Teagasc document. It is imperative on everyone to try to achieve the maximum possible change to the statutory instrument because farmers do not know the burden that will be placed on them in this regard.

Deputy Naughten referred to soil sampling. I agree that it is not an exact science, which is why it is essential to have a code of practice in place. Farmers cannot be criminalised for a minor breach of the regulations. As members know, different parts of a field will yield different results. Whether a lump of manure goes out of the fertiliser when a person is beginning work, or otherwise, there could be an abnormally high reading. I heard a consultant recently refer to a W pattern, which is the recommended way to take soil samples. His figures suggested that 30% of a field gave 70% of the samples, which suggests that the system is not watertight. This issue is not like speeding on the roads, which can be defined as travelling faster than a certain speed. Tolerances must be built in, which is why it is essential that a code of practice is in place. There must be input from all sides.

On the issue of quotas within regions, we are different from other parts of Europe in that the co-op milk pool is a feature of this country. If we begin trading quotas within regions or co-op areas, the ring fencing will break down. Glanbia milk will fetch a high price because Glanbia's operations stretch from the Border to Cork but the ring fencing structure will break down if there is trading outside the restructuring that was in place heretofore. Given the current timeframe, we cannot see any logic to introducing changes to the quota restructuring at this stage. We accept that the price at 55 cent had probably gone too low but there was no need to throw out the baby with the bath water. We could have increased the price to 70 or 80 cent, which would have solved most of the problems. Bringing the price to a reasonable level would mean that a farmer would get a reasonable return and the quota would still be focused on the priority categories.

On Senator Scanlon's point, this year will tell much in regard to the filling of quotas. One example will give a health warning in this regard. In the 2004 restructuring year, 2,500 dairy farmers in the Golden Vale-Kerry Group applied for a milk quota from the restructuring scheme. However, only 1,700 applied for the 2005 restructuring scheme. Therefore, 800 farmers who applied the previous year did not apply last year. There might be many reasons for this but the difference shows that some farmers thought they had enough quota and did not want to run any faster to stand still.

There is a belief among farmers that there is no point being a busy fool. If there is not a reasonable return, why break one's back trying to make a living? It all comes back to income, and the filling of quotas comes back to the price of milk. If the price is reasonable, we will more than fill our quota. However, if there is no profit, farmers will not continue to fill their quota. Obviously, production of milk in certain parts of the country is more costly and these areas will come under pressure first.

This year will answer the question of whether we will have problems filling our quota. Weather problems occurred last year. There is definitely an atmosphere among farmers that they in no way want to scale up just to maintain income — there must be other benefits. They look across the Border to Northern Ireland and to the UK where quota is readily available. Milk producers there scaled up to a large extent but broke themselves financially. Farmers in the Republic do not wish to take the same route. This year will tell much as to whether we will fill our quota and expand, and we must wait and see. However, many farmers have no appetite for a large amount of quota.

I believe I have covered Deputy Crawford's question as to the logic behind making the quota viable through the open market. In its meeting with the officials regarding milk quotas, the ICMSA used the example of Bandon Co-operative Agricultural & Dairy Society Limited, which has a small number of milk suppliers. We asked the officials what their proposals would do for Bandon, which is a co-operative where quota is like gold dust. However, as they could not give us any answer, their argument falls. They simply looked across the table blankly at us. If the officials' proposal does not do anything for Bandon, it has no merit. If I have missed anything, Mr. Dolan and Mr. Enright will cover it.

Mr. Dolan

In response to Deputy Naughten's query regarding soil testing, he is aware that it has two components, namely, sampling and analytical work. Sampling is always a random issue and there can be variations. However, the biggest variation will arise from the analytical work. I believe the Deputy was referring to this aspect of the test.

Experts state that the test used in Ireland for phosphorus levels is 20% inaccurate. This would probably not stand up to judicial review. In fairness to those who designed the test, it was designed to give recommendations on fertiliser use. However, the test is probably completely inappropriate as this margin is so wide. If my figures are correct, one is likely to be condemned one out of five times, even when one is innocent. This error rate comes in addition to those sampling errors that can occur. This issue must be specifically addressed within the statutory instrument, as any court would be reluctant to indict or condemn an individual with a margin of error — from the experts' point of view — of 20%. One would expect a test to have a rate of plus or minus 1% or 2%.

As for the overall approach and making progress, are we faced with a question of science or political expediency? The Teagasc document sets out several limits in respect of phosphorus and nitrogen. The ICMSA has suggested how they might be incorporated in the statutory instrument and legislated for. In respect of phosphorous, the rates put forward by Teagasc should be included in the statutory instrument, that is, the level known as "index 3" should become the target index. In return, an additional article should be included in the statutory instrument, whereby farmers would be obliged and compelled to undertake not to apply a level of phosphorous in excess of 19 kg per hectare — or 20 kg per hectare if one rounds it up to the nearest whole number — on land which was subject to overland flow. We have had much discussion on this issue and, as Mr. Cahill noted, pig farmers would agree to this proposal.

As for nitrogen, while I am sorry to labour this point, I refer to non-derogation farms at all times in this regard. We must be conscious of simplicity. Teagasc has suggested three rates of applied nitrogen, having regard to the level of background nitrogen available. The Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government may opt for the middle band as being the standard band. However, to so do would effect a significant restriction on those farms that require a higher level. In respect of the proposed legal maximum rate of applied nitrogen of 206 kg per hectare, our submission states that the ICMSA is prepared to accept that an individual who needs to apply levels above the standard rate should be able to justify so doing.

We should concentrate on what will be accepted in Brussels and what can be legislated for with legal certainty, having regard to the recommendations from Teagasc. The ICMSA has not deviated from its recommendations. We are lobbyists and have put forward suggestions as to how they can be put in place. We appeal to the committee that the farm organisations have one more round with the civil servants. However, in fairness to the civil servants, political direction is also required. This can be done.

Members should bear in mind that the accuracy demanded and the legal certainty sought in Brussels come on top of a moving target. It has now been established that the phosphorous test can be 20% inaccurate, even when conducted under the best conditions. Hence, we should acquire a sense of proportion in this regard. Moreover, this is only for a four year period and has not been written in stone. Hence, we appeal that one more effort be made. We are available to do so and have put forward a set of proposals in our submission.

On behalf of the committee, I thank Mr. Cahill, Mr. Dolan and Mr. Enright for their attendance and responses to the members' queries. I wish Mr. Cahill well in the years ahead and know that he will be available to come before the committee when requested. He should never hesitate to contact the clerk to the committee if he has some issues to air before the committee.

As we have some housekeeping matters to deal with, is it agreed to suspend the sitting for two minutes to allow the delegation to retire? Agreed.

Sitting suspended at 5.08 p.m., resumed in private session at 5.10 p.m. and adjourned at 5.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 19 April 2006.
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