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JOINT COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE AND FOOD debate -
Wednesday, 17 May 2006

Sustainable Rural Housing Guidelines: Ministerial Presentation.

Members will recall that the non-implementation by planning authorities of recommendations on the sterilisation of land holdings and other issues arising under the sustainable rural housing guidelines arose during a discussion last March with the IFA on the future of farming in Ireland. The committee agreed to invite the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and representatives from the County and City Managers Association to appear before it to discuss this matter. I welcome the Minister to his first meeting with this committee.

The clerk to the committee has been informed by City and County Managers Association that it is willing to come before the committee. A date for such a meeting will be set in the near future. I welcome the Minister's officials and hope this meeting will be successful. I call on the Minister who may wish to give the committee an overview of the issues being discussed today.

I thank the Chairman. I am very pleased to be invited to appear before the committee to discuss this issue. As members of the committee are aware, this is an area in which I take a particular interest. I represent one of the most scenic counties in Ireland where many controversies have arisen over the years, particularly in respect of one-off rural housing. One of the first measures I took as Minister was to attempt to codify the arrangements for one-off rural housing, particularly sustainable one-off rural housing. Unlike quite a number of people, I do not believe there is anything wrong with people living in the countryside. People make the countryside and a countryside devoid of people is akin to a desert. Getting the balance right is the challenge in every area, particularly so in this area. I am happy to listen to any concerns held by the committee in respect of this issue and the related issue of sterilisation.

The Government recognises the strong and continuing tradition for people to live in rural areas in Ireland. Indeed, approximately one-third of Irish people live in the countryside. The future viability of such rural communities must be supported because people make rural communities. However, this does not mean that unrestricted building and development should be permitted. Housing development in rural areas should generally complement rather than dominate its natural surroundings. It is for this reason that a balanced approach must be adopted at both national and local level.

I published the sustainable rural housing guidelines in April 2005 following a lengthy consultation process. The guidelines attempt to strike a balance between having a good planning framework for rural housing and making it easier for those who are part of, or have links, to local communities who want to build a house. The guidelines consolidate the approach taken in respect of rural housing in the national spatial strategy, which aims to support rural communities and provide the framework within which rural communities can develop economically and socially.

Draft guidelines for planning authorities on sustainable rural housing were published in March 2004 to give all interested parties an opportunity to comment before the guidelines were finalised in statutory form. A total of 105 submissions in respect of the draft guidelines were received by my Department from interested organisations and individuals. Many suggestions for clarifying or improving the guidelines were incorporated in the finalised guidelines. The guidelines provide that reasonable proposals on suitable sites in rural areas for persons who are part of, contribute to or have links with the rural community should be accommodated. The guidelines thus represent a presumption in favour of quality one-off housing for rural communities, provided proposals meet normal standards in respect of matters such as the proper disposal of waste water and road safety.

The guidelines are a material consideration regarding development plans and the consideration of planning applications. Planning authorities are required to review and vary their development plans where necessary to ensure that their policies on rural settlement are consistent with the policies set out in the guidelines. Specifically, the guidelines provide that people who are part of the rural community should be facilitated by the planning system in rural areas, including those under strong urban-based pressures; anyone wishing to build a house in rural areas suffering persistent and substantial population decline will be accommodated; and the development of the rural environs of major urban areas, including the gateways and hubs identified in the national spatial strategy and county and other larger towns of more than 5,000 in population, needs to be carefully managed in order to assure their orderly development and successful functioning.

Section 39 of the Planning and Development Act 2000 provides that a condition may be attached to the grant of planning permission for a house. This can specify that the house must be occupied by persons of a particular class or description with provision to that effect to be incorporated in an agreement under section 47. These are known as occupancy conditions, which are used to varying degrees by planning authorities and An Bord Pleanála in requiring that completed dwellings must be first occupied by the applicant, his or her immediate family or heirs and must remain so occupied for a specified period. The conditions also normally specify that planning authorities can give consent to the occupation of the dwelling by a different person with the same category of need as the applicant.

In effect, occupancy clauses are to be used in these situations as a mechanism to facilitate the grant of permission for housing in a case that might otherwise be refused. The guidelines make clear that occupancy conditions are only appropriate in certain cases, such as permissions being granted in areas close to the larger cities and towns under strong pressure for urban-generated development or to a permanent resident in an area where there is an overconcentration of holiday or second home developments. In other words, the purpose of the occupancy requirement is to favour and facilitate local residents in making applications and ensure that there are no abuses.

In the 2000 Act, section 47 reads that a planning authority may enter into an agreement with any person for the purposes of restricting or regulating the development and use of land permanently or for a specified period. These are known as sterilisation agreements, which have been occasionally used by planning authorities to regulate development in rural areas. In areas where very significant levels of rural housing development have taken place on the edges of cities and towns and where such areas may be tending towards overdevelopment, these agreements have provided a useful tool in enabling planning authorities to support rural-generated development on the one hand while avoiding overdevelopment of an area on the other.

However, the guidelines state that the inflexible nature of such agreements limits their usefulness except in highly exceptional circumstances. Sterilisation agreements must be used with utmost discretion. Beyond such circumstances, the guidelines state that planning authorities should avoid the use of these agreements and focus instead on deciding on the merits of the individual proposal in terms of the proper planning and sustainable development of the area.

On the basis of a recent sample survey of planning authorities by my Department, indications are that these agreements are not being applied in the main. The sample survey focused on the authorities in the constituencies of this committee's permanent members. Some local authorities have not applied the agreements at all while some have applied them in limited cases.

Last year, my Department held two seminars at my request for local authority planning officials on the implementation of the guidelines. The seminars dealt with the overall objectives of the guidelines and provided practical advice on the implementation of their core provisions, including preparation of development plan policies. My Department also held discussions on the guidelines with the planning committee of the County and City Managers Association. These discussions focused on the need to embed regard for the guidelines in the performance by local authorities of their relevant functions. Authorities should make automatic reference to the guidelines, which are the express will of the Houses and should be obeyed. Indeed, my understanding is that all local authorities are incorporating the guidelines into their development plans either as part of the formal review process or by way of variation where necessary. The guidelines apply irrespective of whether they have done this or are putting it off.

I assure the committee that the continued implementation of the guidelines is a priority for my Department and I so as to help rural communities develop and flourish to their full potential. They are intended to achieve a balance between, on the one hand, people's right to live in their own areas, enrich the countryside and become part of vibrant communities and, on the other, protect the countryside and ensure that we do not have excessive or ill-focused development.

I raised the matter of the sterilisation agreements of old with the IFA. In such agreements, which are relevant in County Meath, people with as much as 200 acres needed to sterilise their full holdings to build a second house if their children got planning permission.

Like other politicians, I have often asked the local authority and county manager to withdraw these agreements, but they have failed to do so. For this reason and others the committee requested that the Minister and his officials address it. We have also requested the attendance of the county managers' association. Each member is aggrieved by the way in which the young people of Ireland, for whom we are fighting in order to keep rural Ireland alive, are treated by county council officials.

I will give the committee my personal view on the matter. Proportionality is the essence of good planning and must be observed by planners. I will return to the issue of sterilisation because I am sure that members have detailed questions. However, it is important that it is used only in specific circumstances and as a last resort. Other members of the committee will have views on this matter.

I thank the Minister for appearing before the committee. I will be parochial as our individual experiences with various planning authorities are mirrored around the country. Farmers have been told that they have valuable assets but they do not have access to them. Many farmers have large bank loans or are under pressure to provide upgrades due to the nitrates directive, which the Minister is introducing. If farmers have a holding, the best way for their children to have access to affordable sites is to develop on their land.

The Minister referred to section 47 agreements being infrequent. I could take the Minister to CLÁR areas in my county, which have been recognised by the State as being profoundly depopulated, and show him an array of section 47 agreements, many of which were made at the end of the planning process. There is a lack of consultation with regard to these agreements, which are not being implemented in the manner suggested by the Minister today.

The difficulty is with the interpretation planners take of the guidelines. The Minister referred to persons who are part of, contribute to or have links with rural communities. I have encountered difficulties with members of the Garda Síochána or vets who move into the area. They are an integral part of the rural community but, because they were not born and reared in that community, they are considered to be blow-ins and ineligible under the guidelines. If someone is contributing to the local community he or she is an integral part of it and should be included.

The occupancy clause is causing major difficulties and sufficient flexibility is not being exercised. In my county one must recommence the entire planning process in order to get these conditions changed because of the decisions of An Bord Pleanála. It is not standard for those who meet similar criteria to the person granted planning permission to be allowed avail of the planning permission.

In areas where there are development pressures, the problem is the lack of serviced land. County Roscommon is an example of this and the Minister is familiar with south County Roscommon, which is under major development pressure from the town on Athlone. Only two areas in the region have sewerage services. According to the Department it is not viable to put a sewerage scheme in place in villages such as Brideswell and Curraghboy even though they are within five miles of Athlone.

We are discussing rural planning. I do not want members to speak about sewerage schemes in their villages. We have invited the Minister to appear before the committee to discuss one-off rural housing.

Will the Chairman allow me to explain?

Yes, but I do not want members speaking about their towns.

Many young people who wish to reside in County Roscommon have no choice but to build in rural areas. No alternatives are offered by the Department. This is being replicated throughout the country. There are no affordable sites for young people in a town or village within their hinterland. They are forced to purchase sites in rural areas. Unless this matter is addressed in conjunction with rural planning we will have difficulties. The guidelines are not being implemented in the way the Minister suggests.

I will not be parochial because my constituency does not lend itself to one-off rural housing. However, there are many other issues regarding planning that I would like to raise.

Last week Commissioner Fischer Boel answered a question about keeping young people on the land. Barriers are being put in their way, namely, inconsistent interpretation of the guidelines. I ask the Minister to address this and examine how interpretation can be applied consistently across the country.

I am interested in the Minister's view on circumstances where planners have made a decision or recommendation that is overturned by the board of An Bord Pleanála. What is the value of a professional planner if the recommendation of the planner and the local authority is overturned by the board?

I thank the Minister for his presentation. While there was great hope and expectation when these guidelines were published in 2004 and implemented in 2005, in reality little has changed on the ground. Every public representative would concur with my view on the lack of implementation or the ad hoc implementation of these guidelines by planners in various local authorities.

The population is decreasing in many rural areas, a trend that appears to be irreversible. Coastal communities along the west coast are experiencing a situation similar to that of Kerry. Where the guidelines have been implemented and land is available, the price of a site is a problem. The fact that people do not have roots in the area, even though they work there, mitigates against their application. In my county we have serial objectors, who are a disgrace. Small developers have approached me about objections that hold up the development for four to six months. The only option is to pay off the objector. There is no accountability with regard to these objections. The practice may be more widespread than the one instance to which I have referred.

Deputy Upton referred to An Bord Pleanála. In my parish, a community development — a state-of-the-art GAA development — granted by Kerry County Council was the subject of an appeal by one individual. An Bord Pleanála refused the application on three counts, two of which had been addressed in the submission and one of which was based on an assumption by an inspector of An Bord Pleanála. We must contend with this, one of the biggest issues facing any public representative.

We must try to reverse the trend of people leaving rural areas. I was in Sneem last Sunday, in the constituency represented by Deputy O'Donoghue. There are only 90 pupils in the primary school and in a few years the local club, which has a great GAA tradition, will have to amalgamate with another club in order to field a team. This type of situation occurs throughout rural Ireland.

I have dealt with a refusal for planning permission on the basis that the area lacked services because it was too far from a school. It was pointless speaking to the people who had refused it. The people applying for planning permission were middle-aged and without families. That they were too far removed from the school and the church and that the area did not have public services were used as reasons to refuse them planning permission.

The previous speaker mentioned the many inconsistencies in planning, which are widespread. On occasions while making representations for a person, it is correctly pointed out that within 100 m or 200 m, a similar application was granted while they are refused. It is a major issue. The Irish Rural Dwellers Association is to the forefront in this issue, along with the IFA and other groups. While I have reservations about some of its points, particularly on planning on demand, I have supported An Taisce in the past regarding protecting landscape and the beauty of our scenic areas. I have opposed it on other occasions when its objections were ridiculous.

I opposed the unrestricted availability of holiday homes in the most scenic parts of our country, which has priced sites beyond local people's budgets. That is an issue with which I have great difficulty. During winter in the most scenic areas such as Donegal and west Cork, one sees hundreds of houses in the landscape by day but by night one sees nothing because the windows are in darkness.

One of the Minister's guidelines states that anyone wishing to build a house in a rural area suffering persistent and substantial population decline will be accommodated. That does not happen in my constituency nor in Kerry South. Other Deputies will speak for their own constituencies. The intent of the guidelines does not match how they operate.

Deputy Ferris illustrated the point well. No one wants a no-holds-barred approach to planning because it would utterly destroy the countryside. It would also have the effect mentioned by Deputy Ferris that incomers with deep pockets would outbid anybody for any half-decent site. That is a real danger.

The issue is to get a balance which favours young people who want to live in and regenerate their own areas. I wish some of the Deputies here had been more vocal when the guidelines were published. I have been excoriated by at least one environmental journalist who feels the best way to preserve rural Ireland is to ensure nobody lives there.

Deputy Ferris made a point on the impact on schools which grow when children come and fall when numbers decline. It has a doughnut effect as it sucks life out of the community. The aim of the guidelines is to prevent that from happening. They also aim to prevent the no-holds-barred attitude, which would not only destroy scenic amenities, but would lead to bidding wars for sites and put them outside the affordability of young people. In my constituency a person who received planning permission in somewhat controversial circumstances outside a town in west Wicklow, phoned to complain about the noise and smell created by cattle in the nearby dairy farm.

Deputy Naughten made a point on conflict between local needs and the guidelines. The guidelines take precedent. An Bord Pleanála indicated verbally and in decisions taken that it takes the guidelines on board. Differences arise on the sterilisation issue, and Deputy Naughten discussed the striking difference between Roscommon and Longford. Longford has only used one sterilisation order since 2005 whereas Roscommon has used 214. It would be interesting to bring the Roscommon county manager before the committee. Specific issues are involved which must be defended in each case. It is not only cussedness. I will not discuss any individual case as to do so would breach the rules.

Deputy Naughten also mentioned the issue of serviced land. At the behest of, and cajoling and brow beating by Deputy Finneran, I recently made a significant amount of money available for the development of Creagh. Deputy Naughten also made representations on that matter. That development was held up because it was contiguous to another area, not Athlone but Ballinasloe. Decisions made in Ballinasloe sterilised the area of Creagh. I made a decision to separate the two areas and Deputy Naughten is aware that I made a large allocation available.

In the cases mentioned, where the unit cost of servicing individual houses would be extremely high, such as more than €20,000, it is not possible to provide services. In one application on my desk, on which I am being put under pressure, the unit cost of servicing individual sites is €54,000. It would be mad-cap for the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to service it. There would be exploitation of the facility and degradation of the area. It does not make sense. The Fine Gael spokesperson on finance would be the first person to excoriate me if I spent above that level. It is a matter of striking a balance.

Roscommon had a complication in servicing which I believe I have broken. I believe the figure was approximately €21 million.

The point I want to make is that up to now, serviced land has not been available. Young people have been forced to get a rural site. I used Roscommon as an example. The same situation arises in other parts of the country, where young people do not have access to relatively cheap serviced sites. As a consequence, they are forced to get sites in rural areas. The Department has a role to play in that.

The Department also has a responsibility to protect the interests of taxpayers. Providing service costs, which would be technically a subsidy of €54,000, would be behaving irresponsibly. That is not what the Deputy suggests, but it would be the case. Deputy Naughten also made the point that development plans themselves must be strategic. It is in the context of development planning that one can make decisions on the allocation of resources for servicing land.

Regarding Deputy Upton's point, it is correct that Commissioner Fischer Boel made the comment about keeping people on the land. A number of years ago I walked across the uplands of County Wicklow with the then EU Commission President Ortoli. He stated it reminded him of the area in which he lived and that it was wonderful people could live in their own areas, be part of their own communities and commute to Dublin. I stated I should have a word with our planners because they do not share that enthusiasm. Deputy Upton is correct because it illustrates the point on the difference in views taken. It is quite a stark difference.

I addressed a number of planning colleges to warn about the dangers of having an urban ethos for planning in a countryside which has different planning requirements. One of the challenges our planning educators must take into account is the danger in academic life, particularly regarding planning, that one will pick up on an approach which is sui generis to its origin. We must develop a planning training which takes into account particularly the rural nature of Ireland. Approximately 30% to 40% of people in Ireland want to live in the countryside and our planning should support that.

The point was also made about recommendations not being accepted. I defend An Bord Pleanála on that because a recommendation is just that. It would be wrong to automatically assume either the board or a council should automatically sign up for every recommendation made. That would amount to tyranny. Effectively, they would have surrendered the power of decision to people who may not have the experience. It is a question of getting that balance right.

The issue of consistent misinterpretation was raised by Deputies Upton, Ferris and Naughten. There should be no inconsistency with regard to interpretation but all cases should be considered on their individual merits and a judgment made. It should be a balanced judgment, however. I take Deputy Ferris's point that it is impossible for a public representative to defend the objectivity of the planning system. If a radically different planning decision is made with regard to two fields located side by side, that brings the planning system into question and sometimes into disrepute. I will not name the county — it is not my county — but a case was brought to my attention recently where on one side of a road planning permission was refused on the basis that a particular development, which was on a small holding, was back land but on the other side of the road planning permission was granted for six or seven houses immediately behind that. There is a need for consistency in that regard.

I mentioned that to the CCMA and raised my concerns about it on several occasions with the county managers. I had an interesting discussion in Cork some time ago. To touch on the point made by Deputy Upton, an elderly county manager who had long since retired from the service made the point that the ultimate planner in every council is the county manager. That being the case, if county managers and their directors of services planning take an overview across the spectrum of planning coming through the system, the inconsistencies which could otherwise appear in the system would be dealt with. We cannot legislate against the inconsistencies because it would touch on individual judgment but it is very important that the inconsistencies are dealt with. I have taken the view, as most members are aware, that the best approach from the Custom House is to be as light-handed as possible to allow local government do its work and not to be a directoire from the centre. There is an issue about consistency, however, and the best way to ensure consistency is to require the senior planner, that is the county manager or the director of services planning, to have an overview of planning decisions made.

County Kerry, which Deputy Ferris mentioned, was one of the constituencies I checked on and it has not used any sterilisation agreements in the past six years, which pleasantly surprised me. It would have Deputy Naughten drooling because the difference is quite significant. Deputy Ferris also touched on something to which I have an allergic reaction, namely, ransom money; it is blackmail in the system. It is despicable and it is difficult to know how to deal with it. There are people who are looking for ransom money, or payment, and the unfortunate victims of this type of extortion are not in a position to say anything. If they do, the person in question will say it is not true. Third parties have the right to object, but the only way to deal with that would be to take away the right of third party objection. However, that is not what the Deputy is suggesting because, as he pointed out, we all have to defend our countryside.

On the question of pressure, which the Deputy mentioned also, if we were to adopt a more open and flexible approach, pressure would immediately be removed from young people.

On the issue of inconsistencies, better monitoring in the individual council is the best way to deal with that. I subscribe strongly, for example, to area planning committees within local authorities where issues about inconsistencies can be discussed. An Bord Pleanála also provides protection in that regard. I hope that comprehensively answers the questions.

I am glad that retired county manager had such an interest in planning. I am aware of a county manager in the past who, in all fairness, went through and signed every file but there are not too many of that type of county manager around now.

I, too, welcome the Minister and his officials. Most of what I intended to say has been covered, particularly the question of inconsistencies. Inconsistencies are rampant in my county. Different decisions are made on the one stretch of road, and sometimes in the one field.

Generally, farmers do not want to sell sites, but sometimes they have to consider that option. Let us put that into the proper perspective. They may have a young family they want to educate or a debt may have accrued through the development of other parts of the farm. They get a daughter or son to apply for planning permission with the intention of selling on the site but an occupancy clause is included and the site cannot be sold. They would be better off if they never applied. When the officials are notified of that they take no heed of the applicant. I assure the Minister that if we were to raise every one of these cases with the county manager, he would have nothing else to do in my county. I am sure that would be the case in most other counties. This occupancy clause must be examined. It applies to every planning permission in my county, as far as I am aware.

I know of a widow who, having reared a family got into debt over house repayments. She wants to get rid of that debt. She got her daughter to apply for planning permission because she knew she would not get it as she had a house. She wanted to sell on the site but the occupancy clause was put in. I argued the case with the council but to no avail. I do not know how we can get around that problem but there must be some mechanism to get around it. Land is an asset to a farmer and as I said at the outset, he or she does not want to sell a site unless it is absolutely necessary.

We will hear four speakers in sequence.

I welcome the Minister and his officials. I have a number of questions. Sometimes the reason for refusal on one-off houses is the proliferation of septic tanks. Most of us who have been members of county councils are aware that very successful alternatives have been provided by the reed bed and puraflow systems. However, there appears to be a secret agreement among planners that those systems are not acceptable. I would like to hear the Minister's comments on that because we hear that miraculous outcomes are now achievable from these puraflow systems yet they do not appear to be favoured by planners.

An issue the Minister raised, and one I wanted to raise also, concerns people who contribute economically to the local community, which the Minister mentioned in his guidelines. It might be the garda, the teacher or someone else living in the community who may not be from a farming background. It has been known that people not directly from rural backgrounds object to a traditional farming practice, be it the milking parlour or the spread of slurry. We must be stronger in our development plans and even in revised guidelines in the future because farming practice is paramount.

On the issue of objectors, I want to give an example. A person from the United Kingdom has a holiday home near the lake in north Tipperary. This man is a serial objector. Local people — farmers' children and so on — have applied for planning permission but this person reads the planning applications on the Internet, lodges an objection and continues to object. That objection is observed by the county council on occasion but if not, an Bord Pleanála finally recognises it. It is most unfair and we should do something about it.

I thank the Minister for the presentation. He has covered so much ground that little remains for me to add.

The interpretation by county council planners of planning guidelines often leaves much to be desired. When a planning decision is appealed, An Bord Pleanála sends an inspector who tends to agree with the decision of the local authority, even though the board can refuse to accept it. That is a ludicrous state of affairs.

I am aware that certain matters cannot be considered when planning decisions are made. However, farming has changed dramatically, as was noted by Deputies Carty and Hoctor. No consideration is given to the many farmers whose holdings were sufficient to provide a living ten years ago but who now find themselves in debt. The sale of a site or two would be of great benefit to them but, while I accept the site must be technically appropriate, farmers can be presented with problems even where there is strong potential for development.

Concerns have been expressed about split holdings. This weekend, I was contacted by a farmer who bought 21 acres in a weak area but was refused permission to build a house, even though he was willing to have the remainder of the land sterilised. I could describe many more similar cases but I am aware the Minister will find it difficult to respond without having the relevant files to hand.

Councillors are only now becoming aware of what they have agreed to in terms of county development plans. I do not seek open countryside because I acknowledge the need for guidelines but many people have been seriously wronged by planners and I have grave reservations about the planning system.

I thank the chairman for arranging this meeting and the Minister for his contribution. While the contents of the guidelines are important, it is also significant that the Minister indicated, when introducing the guidelines, that he wanted to create a new culture in planning so that people dealing with planning departments can make positive rather than negative presumptions.

Deputy Ferris referred to the positive atmosphere that surrounded the publication of the guidelines and criticised the subsequent lack of progress. However, we should look to local authorities in that regard because they are responsible for drawing up and amending development plans. It has been my experience in County Kildare that the many positive elements of the sustainable rural housing guidelines have not been embraced by planners or the inexperienced councillors who were elected last May and immediately given responsibility for drawing up the next county development plan. The county's development plan is now one of the most restrictive in the country and, even though the guidelines advise against being unduly prescriptive, Kildare County Council has introduced a range of prescriptions for planning applications in rural areas, such as requiring applicants to have lived in the area for 12 years or be employed in a rural enterprise located within 5 km of the site. Applicants are also required to furnish P60s and even letters from the local priest stating how long they lived in the parish.

The issue of ribbon development has been raised and, clearly, County Kildare is subject to continuous development pressure. The definition in the guidelines of ribbon development as five houses or more on a 250 m stretch of road means that people who can only find sites at the end or in the middle of a ribbon are being refused on the grounds that they are unacceptably extending the development. Negativity continues to prevail in County Kildare. We have to ensure that councillors, irrespective of their party membership, take ownership of the guidelines and insist plans are amended accordingly.

The Minister might address the issues raised by the Chairman on sterilisation. What can be done to address the significant difficulties people encounter in trying to buy sites which were sterilised 30 years ago?

Members have criticised occupancy clauses but I do not see anything wrong in those. I made a suggestion, in respect of the County Kildare plan, that a ten-year occupancy clause should be included. If people are genuine, they should have no difficulty in signing up to such a clause. Where people plan to sell sites, fewer difficulties would arise if they were required to sell them on the open market, subject to planning permission. The purchaser could then apply for planning permission.

There is little capacity in Kildare County Council to deal with exceptional cases. If, for example, a marriage breaks down and a house in the countryside has to be sold, planning permission will not be granted to build another dwelling. Both partners must, therefore, move to a town or village. The same obtains in the case of bankruptcy. While the council may be gracious in allowing the sale of the house, the purchaser will still have to meet the rural housing criteria and permission would not be granted to build in the garden.

We often raise the issue of rural development and enterprises, yet a farmer who proposed to turn unused agricultural buildings into warehouses or a distribution centre in order to generate income for his or her family would probably be refused permission. If the planners were to decide the proposed development was not an agricultural enterprise, they would simply tell the farmer to purchase zoned land in a town or village. A similar situation obtains in respect of derelict houses. In County Kildare, a person cannot move from a town to rehabilitate a rural house which has a collapsed roof and has become a blight on the local landscape unless he or she fits into the rural category.

The Minister is correct that the planning system's urban focus represents a significant problem. Planning departments spend a disproportionate amount of time haranguing and harassing applicants for one-off housing and too little time on major urban developments, even though much closer attention is demanded to the major monstrosities which are going up in many of our towns. We do not want continuous high density urban development, stagnation in villages and tight restrictions on people living in rural areas.

Deputy Ó Fearghaíl's last sentence echoes my opinion. A doctrinaire approach is the least likely to be successful. The planning system should always be moderated by a modicum of common sense, which is often unavailable. It should be laced with a little humanity. To take up a point raised by Deputy Ferris, I wrote some specific items into the planning guidelines, including one for returning emigrants. People were driven out of this country by economic circumstances in the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s. They had nowhere to go but the emigrant boat and now, coming towards the end of their lives they want to return to their home place. For the first time the planning guidelines recognise that they have a special position and are going to bring something back. The country that could not support them in their youth can at least welcome them in their autumn years.

I made a specific reference to planners using discretion when dealing with a family that faces difficulties. In the by-election in the Chairman's constituency, Councillor Nick Killeen, who does extraordinary work with a disability group, brought me to meet a young couple who had two children suffering from autism. They could not get planning permission in the countryside although an uncle of one of them had decided to give a site. They did not meet the then criteria. I spoke to the Chairman, councillors and Members from other political parties and they all endorsed what I did. I wrote into the guidelines that special consideration must be given for those cases. The guidelines refer to an exception of health circumstance.

I have said several times that I do not like sterilisation agreements and they should be the exception rather than the rule. I have contrasted the approach as it has been adopted in a number of councils and that can be taken further with the CCMA. I dislike sterilisation agreements because they are reflected in the title deeds and become a burdensome legal issue. They can be problematic for families when somebody passes away or, as Deputy Wilkinson said, in the case of a split farm when somebody wants to come into an area and farm. That is why I have said they should be used with discretion.

Deputy Hoctor raised a number of interesting points. There is a specific reference in the guidelines to people working full time or part time in rural areas. It says such circumstances will normally encompass persons involved in full-time farming, forestry, inland waterways or marine-related occupations as well as part-time occupations where the predominant occupation is farming or natural resource related. Such circumstances should also encompass persons whose work is intrinsically linked to rural areas such as teachers or other persons whose work predominantly takes them into rural areas. If Deputies or Senators had difficulties in their councils they could draw that reference to the attention of planning officials because it required people to show common sense. One cannot prescribe a common sense approach in legislation but one can, as I have done in these guidelines, nudge people in the direction of it.

I am working backwards towards Deputy Carty. Deputy Wilkinson raised a number of issues, one of which was also raised by Deputy Carty. The planning system has never facilitated the sale of parts of land on economic considerations. As a councillor I tended not to support the use of the former section 4. I felt negotiations were better because section 4 was open to abuse. At one point we had 104 section 4 cases in County Wicklow, which looked like abuse and brought the planning system and the councillors into disrepute. I remember a section 4 case in which every councillor in the chamber supported it. One councillor said the reason the poor woman was applying for planning permission was because she needed money and had to sell the site, but the county manager could not sign it because the planning system is not intended to allow for that approach. Planning is planning and I am not in favour of introducing a system that would allow side farming, which is what we are discussing.

If people have genuine cases, for example, sons or daughters who want to live in that area, they should be facilitated. However, living there only to get planning permission and then selling the land is not an honest use of the argument of local occupation. The purpose of the guidelines I introduced was to do what it says on the can, to give people who will enrich the countryside, sons and daughters, the right to come into the countryside, not to foster speculative development. I made the point in reference to Deputy Ferris. Getting the balance right is not easy, but it is important. Using planning guidelines as a Trojan horse through which speculative development can take place would be a disservice to the countryside and to young people who want to live and rear their children where they were reared. We must protect against that.

Deputy Wilkinson mentioned An Bord Pleanála, which has taken on the planning guidelines well. I did a quick survey the first year after the guidelines were published in draft form and the number of one-off planning cases that were successful in seeking an appeal in 2004 went up to 70%. The corresponding figure in 2003 was only 4%. That is a dramatic increase. Some object to that, and one environmental correspondent regularly excoriates me. He sees this as the end of civilisation as we know it because as he is chauffeur driven through the countryside his view is occasionally spoiled by the dreadful sight of a bungalow in which a young family lives. That is a good application of the guidelines, however we all have taste differences.

To respond to Deputy Carty, I am anxious that we do not have side farming and that we have high-quality development in rural areas, specifically development for rural people who were born and reared in the countryside. We must be careful about side farming. The occupancy clauses are, and should be, used to facilitate giving people planning. We provided an occupancy clause in this instance because it is a sign that these are bona fide people. That point was made by Deputy Ó Fearghaíl.

Deputy Hoctor mentioned septic tanks, and a proliferation of them can cause water contamination. We are making a difficult decision on water contamination from nitrates and it is important that we also make decisions on contamination arising from septic tanks. I was taken by a number of arguments by Deputies and Senators from across the political spectrum on this recently. I travelled to Waterford to see an extensive system of using wetlands and reed beds in rural areas, which struck me. As Deputy Wilkinson knows, in the village of Kilmeadan there is reed bed system used for the cheese plant. Shortly after the plant opened there was a large spill of milk, which is very contaminating if it gets into the water. Within two weeks the whole system was cleaned by the reed beds.

In Annaville, just below Kilmeadan, reed beds are used extensively. My Department is working on guidelines for their use because they are an environmentally friendly, low-cost and relatively low-tech approach to clusters of housing in rural areas. We are returning to Deputy Naughten's earlier contribution that it would not be sensible or safe to argue that taxpayers should put in a treatment plant but this type of treatment is relatively low-cost and has a series of environmental positives. For example, following the installation of reed beds in Waterford, fish appeared in the river for the first time, such was the extent to which it had been cleaned up. I call for some imagination to be shown.

Deputy Hoctor is correct that there has been, in some cases, a rather doctrinaire attitude to puraflow and other such initiatives. We should have a more open attitude to new systems and technologies, provided they are not fly by night, which I know the Deputy is not suggesting. I draw the attention of members to the references on page 24 to special cases such as teachers in rural areas.

I thank the Chairman for inviting the Minister and for keeping this item on the agenda. It is very relevant to all rural representatives.

I will begin by giving my own interpretation of what is happening in the area of planning. In my own county, Donegal, there are six electoral areas. There is a senior planner in each and one or two junior planners under them. The gist of the problem is that no two of those planners think the same. Not every county manager wears one hat — he may have other jobs. Also, the directors of services are not always professionals in the field of planning, which raises problems. A planner joins the local authority, sometimes recently out of college, sometimes with experience of working somewhere else, and is given the county development plan but no direction. As professionals, they are able to make their own interpretation of the development plan. I saw it time and time again in my four years as a councillor on Donegal County Council. During that time, although there was one development plan there was a change in planners and the new ones had a very different interpretation of the plan in various areas. That has led to many of the problems that exist.

In the last local elections in Donegal I was involved in two electoral areas. The Department issued guidelines on how the officers in charge of accounts would act. Officers in one electoral area followed the guidelines but those in the other did not. The reason they gave was that the guidelines were just guidelines, not law. That is used by one local authority in particular as a reason for not following the guidelines.

A couple of years ago the Chairman of this joint committee invited officials from An Taisce to discuss one-off rural housing. Their conduct at the meeting was nothing short of disgraceful, as was the way they dealt with members on the day, as I am sure every member present today will confirm. I will not mention names but an elected representative on one of the authorities in Donegal interfered in a planning application where a father and son were trying to get planning for a house each. The elected representative said he would get planning permission for both by taking them to the head of An Taisce in Donegal. That is completely wrong. An Taisce is utterly undemocratic and nobody knows what the criteria are to become a member. It is answerable to nobody.

Only a small percentage of all the applications to An Bord Pleanála are turned down but I cannot obtain any record of cases An Taisce took to An Bord Pleanála in the past three or four years, or how many were approved. I guarantee that the number is very low. Objections from An Taisce carry far too much weight. Some of those who make the decisions following inspections of An Bord Pleanála sites in Donegal are closely related to people in top positions in An Taisce in the county. That is a serious issue. If members want more information after this meeting I will have no problem furnishing it. An Taisce puts forward objections that are totally beyond its remit to ensure applications are turned down. I would like An Taisce to have less clout than it currently has, and Dúchas or some such body to have its remit. I call for a complete review of its standing. It is not acceptable that it gets away with such actions.

I sympathise with Deputy Ferris's complaint about developers having to buy out serial objectors, which an article in a local Donegal newspaper highlighted last week. I know that it happens but I am not sure how it can be addressed. The Minister talked about section 4, or section 140 as it is known in Donegal. Councillors in Donegal have battled for one-off housing for locals in the county but have not been given a fair crack of the whip. The majority of cases, particularly those under section 140, are lawful. The day that law disappears will be a sad day for local people in the countryside who make planning applications.

The joint committee agrees with Deputy Blaney about An Taisce.

I thank the Minister and his officials for attending to brief us and to educate us. I speak as a member of the junior team, which is probably why I was called so late.

I asked every member in order, so do not blame me. I do not like members having a sour face when they are not called.

I simply stressed that I was a member of the junior team and did not blame the Chairman. If he feels guilty it is not my fault.

I do not want to rehearse what has already been said but, as a public representative, the situation is very frustrating. If I repeat what was said earlier it is because it relates to important issues that affect everyone. Most public representatives spend at least 50% of their time dealing with planning queries. "Consistency" is a word that has cropped up a great deal today. The Minister's notes state: "the guidelines provide that reasonable proposals on suitable sites in rural areas for persons who are part of, contributed to or have links with the rural community should be accommodated". That is a catch-all phrase designed to satisfy everybody and which probably pleases nobody. If that is contrasted with the county I come from, for example, and depending on what area of the county one is in, the person must be a son or a daughter. That person must be actively involved in agriculture and be born or have contacts within ten kilometres of where the person wishes to build.

These are very specific compared with the Department's guidelines. If the Minister is serious about tackling the issue, why are only guidelines being used? Why is he not being more specific, grasping control and dealing with the problem by outlining particular indications of what should happen?

A colleague of Deputy Hoctor's and mine once stated at a meeting in Tipperary that there were more planners than tourists in the north of the county. That is another part of the problem. People have alluded that we have an urban-driven planning system. I put it to the Minister that we have a British-driven planning system as most of the planners are now qualifying after a one-year course from the Royal Town Planning Institute in London. Some years ago, when local people and engineers were in charge of our counties, there was specific knowledge of problems affecting local areas.

People have mentioned gardaí and nurses. I know of a case where a garda in a town for seven years wished to build a house in the country. He was not granted planning permission to do so as he had to be there for eight years. I know of a doctor and a nurse renting a house, who are resident in a county for three years and wish to stay there. However they will not be allowed to. That is common. I am sure the Minister will agree that we require doctors and nurses in rural areas.

I accept there must be a balance between dormant towns and people just living in them at night, not participating in the community. There is also the issue of holiday homes. There is no restriction on who buys a derelict house or cottage in the country if it is for sale. In many instances, local people cannot compete to buy such properties. Why is somebody who lives in a town and whose mother and father probably got a council house in the town at some stage debarred from building in the country? The only opportunity they have of moving to the country is if they can afford to buy a house, competing against those people who were previously mentioned, buying holiday homes and living in dormant towns.

I will not mention specific villages, but I compliment the Minister and his Department on introducing a pilot scheme to north and south Tipperary in specific villages which are putting sewerage schemes in place. It is a worthwhile scheme. It would be greatly appreciated if it could be prioritised. We will be learning from it for the future.

The village plans drawn up by every local authority now identify one, two or three specific pieces of land used for development. Those who are in that area are forced to buy land off those three land owners. In effect, one or two people in a village are made millionaires by confining the building to specific lands. I am not sure this is the right attitude.

If ten planners look at one planning application, they will have different opinions. Some years ago a planner in north Tipperary would not allow red brick on a house. There was much discontent when people applied to build a house with red brick but were denied permission, especially if their neighbour received permission for a house with red brick. That was the case for as long as that planner stayed in north Tipperary, although that was not too long thankfully. It was about two years. People were then able to get permission to build a house with red brick, whereas the people who applied under the previous planner had to build a plain house. Such inconsistency and bureaucracy, coupled with the power these planners have, drives people to distraction. It would drive a person crazy to try to keep up with them.

I support Deputy Ó Fearghaíl's point relating to industry in the country. Recently I learned of a person operating an agricultural machinery sales and service business in the countryside who was refused planning permission to extend his premises. He was told he would have to move his business to a designated area. This is a rural industry dealing with rural people specifically. That type of planning decision is crazy and would drive people mad.

Rather than speaking in broad terms and guidelines, the time has come to take action on the planning process. The Minister must take a firm grip and act to sort it out. It will not only drive public representatives mad, but it will do likewise to everybody in the country.

I would also like to welcome the Minister and his officials. I am delighted this discussion has taken place today as I have an interest in planning. I served as a member of a local authority for almost 20 years, and I have seen the inconsistency being spoken of. We all seem to forget that the only function which local authority members have is the preparation of the development plan. It it is up to us to dot the i's and cross the t's.

I was involved, with other members, in the production of approximately four development plans. The planning problems did not arise overnight, and they go back as long as I was a member of a local authority. We thought, as we prepared each development plan, that we had solved the problems which had faced us for the previous five to seven years. We did not, as a result of the interpretation of the officials. Once we made the development plan we had no say in it except if we had an applicant. In that case we may have made a representation on that person's behalf or met the officials. The final say on the matters was with the director of services.

I have listened attentively to the reasons for refusals since the beginning of the meeting. The ribbon development reason is only a sham, as one could see 20 houses on one road but planning permission refused for a house on another road because it would be a fourth house. I still have great respect for my own county engineer, and when septic tanks were introduced he stated that there would never again be a worry about a refusal because of soakage. That is gone by the sidelines. One could go on. From listening and discussing planning issues with other Deputies, it is the same in every county in Ireland.

With regard to sterilisation, I do not know the figures which the Minister has for Limerick, but we have a certain amount. We are getting an occupancy clause, and I would not agree with a ten-year term. Five years would be sufficient because people may want to move on to enhance themselves or their positions.

We had a county manager, hailing from the Chairman's area, who has since left. He brought many of the ideas from his own county to my county.

They were not so good.

We opposed him when he introduced the concept of a pressure area. This meant a person had to be resident in an area before a certain year and connections were required, etc. This has made things very difficult. However difficult that was, we now have, in the pressure area, what is termed "need". This means that if a person wishes to improve their stature in life and has the finances to build, if the person has a house already he or she does not qualify to build in the pressure area. That is a significant problem to us as public representatives.

It was previously mentioned that approximately 75% of our work as public representatives involves planning issues. It is frustrating. If it was not we would not be still at this meeting telling it to the Minister. I do not wish to elaborate as much of this has been mentioned already and I do not want to repeat myself.

When there is an objection to An Bord Pleanála and an inspector is sent by the body to assess the objection, I have seen the proposals of the inspector overturned by the board. That is very difficult to explain to an applicant. Surely if the inspector has the qualifications to work for An Bord Pleanála and submits his proposals to the board it is not right to act in this way. It is something the Minister, Deputy Roche might look into.

This meeting was well timed and we should meet the Minister again because there is much frustration with the planning process. A young couple that has a planning application rejected may be forced to go on a local authority housing list. That speaks for itself.

Like previous speakers, I have found this meeting informative and feel we should meet again. I thought the planning process was bad in Sligo but listening to the other speakers has convinced me that it is not as bad as some.

Regarding An Bord Pleanála, inspectors come to a site and make a recommendation. That recommendation could be overturned by people who may not even know from where the application originated, they may only see it on paper. It annoys applicants when that happens. There is a human side to every planning application, particularly in one-off housing. My own area is rural and many of the applicants for planning permission in such an area could just as easily put their names on a county council housing list. Instead they are prepared to work on providing a home for themselves. There should be positive discrimination in their favour, yet they receive a negative response from planning authorities that do not favour planning applications in rural areas.

Residents of an area are perfectly entitled to object to planning applications in that area. However, I have reservations about people living 100 miles away doing so, probably at the request of somebody from the local area.

The Minister is under severe time constraints, therefore, I ask members to please be as brief as possible.

I apologise for arriving late. There are some unusual situations with regard to the issue of sterilization. My next door neighbour has two houses on the family farm, one for a son and one for sale. Last year he was refused planning permission for himself unless he engaged in a sterilization agreement. This is difficult to fathom when compared with a person who has received permission for 13 to 15 houses. The Minister has the authority to regulate this. Sterilization should apply only for a certain period of time.

With regard to ribbon developments, this morning I encountered a situation where there were three houses in a row, then a very bad bend in the road, then another house, yet the planner is questioning the right of a person to get a site in between. This site could be on the straight stretch with three houses on it, but the planner is including the other house, 80 m away around the bend. It is illogical. The planner says the site is ideal but he cannot give permission because of the Minister's guidelines on ribbon developments. Can the Minister comment on this?

I find the seven year issue difficult to accept in that developers get away with all sorts of things, yet original owners do not. According to the last census, County Monaghan, and only to a slightly lesser extent County Cavan, has seen some of the lowest increase in population in recent years, yet rural sites and houses in County Monaghan are more expensive than almost any other part of the country. This could be due to difficulties in obtaining planning permission. The planners may produce statistics to disprove this but people are afraid to apply for planning because of the restricted nature of the regulations. I was involved in a number of preplanning consultations only to find that when the plans were submitted they were being dealt with by another planner who ignored preplanning and rejected them.

An Taisce objected to a site in an isolated part of County Cavan. The inspectors rejected these objections, yet An Bord Pleanála refused planning permission on the house. Are we serious about repopulating rural areas? My young next door neighbours have returned to the parish to rear their family and their plans have been restricted because the house can be seen from a back road on which nobody travels except the farmers when they cut silage.

I appreciate the Minister's efforts to regulate all this. However, development plans are a serious issue. Many years ago, when I was on Monaghan County Council, I refused to sign a development plan until the then county manager provided an assurance that common sense would prevail. He insisted the plan be signed otherwise he would be in trouble with the Minister. The plan caused no problems until the new county manager arrived. He said he had read the plan and would apply to it the letter of the law. This is what has happened in most cases. However, some county managers deal with cases differently.

The Minister mentioned rebeds and in an Irish context these were invented in my county. The Minster's officials sanctioned a rebed sewerage plant there in 1996 which was initially rejected by local politicians, but later accepted.

When will the Minister deal with the nitrate plans? We are all waiting for action in this area.

I give the Minister credit for trying to address a number of contentious issues that have been raised by the members. The culture in planning is dictated by urban-generated thinking among a few people who usually have access to the media and write regularly to condemn those in favour of rural planning as a bunch of good-for-nothing rednecks who should be discounted at all times. The exception to that is Professor Caulfield in Galway who has done a tremendous amount of work in pointing out that there is a tradition here of people living in rural areas, more so than in any other European country. I ask the Minister to bear that in mind. For instance, Donegal is regularly referred to as a planning jungle, as I saw stated in a newspaper article some time ago. The fact is there was always a large rural population in Donegal until the time of the Famine, when the population decreased.

Some aspects have changed, although they do not have to change for everybody. Otherwise, there will be nobody living in some of those areas. Over the past 25 yeas or more, we all have had experience of areas that would have shown a decrease in population but for the fact that action was taken by local public representatives.

I want to make some brief points. First, the level of expertise at local authority level is not the same as it was in the past. As Deputy Ó Feargháil will know of some councils, years ago we had a county architect and even a county engineer. They were the senior authoritative people at a technical level in the local authority and they could talk to anybody. We did not always agree with them and had many rows with them but at least we knew what they stood for and from where they were coming and that they could make their case on technical grounds any time and with anybody without fear. That is no longer the case. We have administrators and architects or, as somebody referred to them, people who have a diploma in urban development, planning or shop fronts. That is a problem.

Second, regarding An Taisce, my problem with it is why should it be that in 98 out of 100 cases where it lodges an objection to a house being built in a rural area, its case prevails? Third, the pecking order in local authorities is such that a junior planning officer or assistant planning officer completes the reports and it goes up the line to the director of services and the senior planning officer. Situations have arisen whereby a junior officer, because he or she does not like the decision ultimately taken as it does not coincide with his or her view, bypasses the whole circuit and comes in at a higher level with an objection that goes through An Taisce or some other body and that case wins. That defeats due process, as the Minister is aware.

I am not a lawyer but I have read enough about this area to know that kind of approach defeats due process. Various points were made regarding An Bord Pleanála. The board's right to make a decision is provided for in law. However, if due process is not observed the individual concerned does not get fair play and could go to the courts if he or she has the resources to do so.

The abolition of the dual mandate, which was not a political decision, was devastating from the point of view of the degree to which Oireachtas Members——

That is not an issue for this meeting.

It has to do with planning and every other issue dealt with by a local authority. The same degree of respect for Oireachtas Members no longer exists.

We know that. We agree with the Deputy on that point.

Parts of the United Kingdom are now devoid of virtually any population. Schools are closing because of the type of policy adopted by planning officers. They would not give planning permissions in rural areas with the result that people from outside came in, bought the existing houses with the result that the area concerned is now devoid of any local population. That is a disgrace from many perspectives. People are living 10 km from their original home in some counties and 5 km in others. Arbitrary decisions have been made.

Objectors to planning applications from outside the area of the proposed development should be barred. I refer to objectors who live 50, 60 or 100 miles from a proposed development who lodge an objection to it on the basis of a so-called principle. I question the principle underpinning such an objection. I had to seek the services of a law firm to find out the person concerned and on what basis the objection was being made. It cost me a considerable amount and I should not have had to incur such an expense. I acted on behalf of a constituent.

Third party objections can be made.

Absolutely. My last point is that in certain parts of the country planning authorities will advise that they cannot give an applicant planning permission because of the high water table. In my county, where the presence of the high water table has prevented the granting of planning permission for a single house, planning permission was granted by the local authority and An Bord Pleanála for a landfill facility within 400 m or 500 m of that feature — the landfill facility is located in a swamp. Others may have a different view on this matter.

I will conclude now on my last point.

Deputy——

I apologise for delaying the committee. I am the last speaker and I apologise for coming in late but I deserve the right to be heard.

Everyone deserves——

I did not object to anybody speaking.

The Deputy should ask his question.

Let us not get into an argument about this. I have as much right as anybody else to speak at a committee anywhere in the House without interruption from the Chair.

Irespect the Minister who has come here today.

I am trying to do that but the Chair keeps interrupting me.

The Deputy should ask his question.

We in Kildare know Meath is famous for football.

The Deputy should not be so sarcastic. He should ask the question.

It is not necessary for the Chairman to go down that road.

Well, if——

——the Chairman and I will have to find another way to resolve it.

I have respect for the Minister.

We will sort out this another way. My last point is in regard to water pollution. Modern technology has advanced sufficiently to be able to cater for dealing with this matter in the case of a single house development at least as well as has been done in respect of a major sewerage schemes.

I wish to make a brief point. Perhaps the Minister could reply in writing to the queries raised, given that he is under time constraints. One aspect that annoys me, as I am sure it does other Deputies and members of councils throughout the country, is that in the case of an applicant who does not meet the site distance requirement, county council planners will not allow the removal of a hedgerow and the planting of it stepped back from its original position. I raised this issue with the former Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture and Food, Deputy Browne, regarding participants in REPS and they have no problem about doing this. I do not see why this should pose a problem for the environment section of county councils.

I thank the Minister and his officials for attending today. It has been a very good meeting. I apologise if I was tough on members but the Minister's private secretary is waiting for the Minister outside and the Minister should have left this meeting half an hour ago. I hope the Minister will reply in writing to the queries raised as soon as possible.

I will reply quickly to a few of the points raised.

Has the Minister time to do so?

I will reply quickly to them.I have already missed a meeting where the members of it were waiting for me to attend.

In matter which the Minister does not have time to reply now can we have written replies?

I ask the Deputy to let me make my point. First, with regard to the generality of planning issues, the draft development plan is adopted by councillors. For example, in the case of Monaghan, the draft development plan has only been circulated. It is up to the councillors to be attentive to the points that were made here.

If Deputy Durkan had been here earlier, he would have heard me quote Dr. Crawford. Regarding the ribbon development example, obviously I cannot comment on individual cases but ribbon development is sometimes cited and in other cases backland development is cited. There needs to be consistency.

A question was raised about the qualifications and capacity of people who make decisions in the local authorities. I already addressed that when I made the point that senior people who are planners in the local authorities are county managers and directors of services regarding planning and they should play a role.

Deputy Collins made the point that councillors have a role in preparing the development plan. He also made the point that the councillor's role does not stop when the development plan is adopted. Councillors should be courageous, persistent and insist that their wishes be observed. When I was a councillor I was prepared to take legal action on issues regarding the development plan. It did not arise, although the threat was there. In County Wicklow at least two councillors courageously took legal action. The monitoring and the implementation of the development plan are local issues and it would be wrong if decisions in that respect were centralised as there is far too much centralised decision-making.

A number of Deputies and Senators suggested that An Bord Pleanála inspector's recommendations should always be upheld. That point is not well thought through. The recommendations might be for a refusal and the board might proceed and give it. If one take's a blanket approach of automatically accepting the professional's view, common sense would go out the door. The suggestion was made that these recommendations should always be accepted. I am surprised at that, particularly from a public representative. Occasionally when the board makes a decision that runs counter to the inspector's report, it is to give planning permission. There have been such instances. One must be careful that one does not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Senator Coonan made a number of points. Most importantly, he asked why I was only dealing with the guidelines. The Senator does not appear to be aware that the guidelines are covered by section 28 of the 2000 Act. The guidelines are law. They are not a desiderata or a bit of flimflam.

The planners to not seem to think that.

The Senator asked why I did not grasp the nettle and turn them into law. They are the law. They are statutorily based and the planners must have regard to them. If the Senator encounters cases where planners do not have regard to them, he should point out this fact to them. I agree with the Senator that section 4 should not be removed.

Deputy Blaney referred to the inconsistency between planners. Different people at different points in their careers will have different degrees of maturity and judgment to bring to a case. That is why it is most important to ensure consistency across the board and that there is a central authority in every local authority. That is the case under the law; it is the county manager or director. In fact, that is where the consistency should be.

The point is that it does not happen.

The Deputy should insist on it.

I am not there any more.

I have said this to county managers. A number of members referred to An Taisce and the fact that it is a prescribed organisation in the planning Act. It was the wisdom of the Oireachtas that allowed for prescribed organisations. Although I have, from time to time, been critical of An Taisce, it should be said in the interest of balance that it has done some marvellous work in other areas. I have rushed to this meeting after participating in the green schools. Some of the members are smiling.

However, I accept the point being made. No organisation should allow itself to be used as a front for unjust attacks on individuals who are looking for planning permission. I dealt with one case, which was well publicised at the time, where I believed a horrific decision had been taken by An Taisce. I say that not out of anger but out of sorrow because I support all the environmental activities of the organisation. It is important that any organisation, governmental or non-governmental, be balanced. Again, we must be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater because An Taisce also does some extremely good work which everyone supports, such as on the beaches, the spring clean-up and the green schools.

What about ribbon development?

I cannot comment on an individual case, I am statutorily prohibited from doing so. With regard to ribbon development, the circumstances of each case are supposed to determine the case. I made the point earlier that in some councils there is a particular aversion to what is called back-land development but if there is no back-land development in some one street villages, one ends up with ribbon development. The houses stretch for a mile or two in a straight line and there is nothing behind them. A measure of logic must inform this. If the development is on a bend in the road or the like, a little more flexibility should and could be adopted.

It is not possible to prescribe every case in law because to do so would produce an inflexible situation. The point and purpose of our planning system is to be as flexible and sensible as possible. I made that point earlier and that was the point of the guidelines. The guidelines are law, not a desiderata. Any planning official who says something is just a guideline and therefore need not be observed is talking through his or her hat. The guideline is law and they must observe it.

Is there a problem with the removal of hedgerows?

There is no particular issue with that. There is a prohibition on cutting hedgerows at a certain time of the year for the sake of wildlife but there is no blanket prohibition on people moving or removing hedgerows. If one wishes to create sidelines or look after public safety, this is again a matter of common sense.

Chairman, I wish to make a proposal and I urge my committee colleagues to support it. Can the committee ask the Minister to have an official examine An Bord Pleanála applications associated with An Taisce or in which An Taisce is involved to ascertain if the system is balanced? We believe it is not. Could somebody examine the situation?

If the Deputy has a specific case where he believes there has been something improper, I will have it examined. Another Deputy recently brought a case to my attention where there was a belief that there was something improper. It was examined in detail by an official of the Department. It was thoroughly analysed and it was found that An Bord Pleanála behaved with absolute propriety. There was nothing suspicious in it. I am aware that there is discontent about a case in Donegal — I believe it is the case the Deputy mentioned — where there was a suggestion that somebody had undue influence.

An Bord Pleanála is a superb organisation and does a very good job. There will always be instances where we do not like some of its decisions. I do not like some of them. However, it is a robust and independent organisation and the chairman, John O'Connor, a former official of the Department, is regarded as a man of absolute fairness and is anxious that everybody have confidence in the board. If the Deputy wishes to bring a case to my attention, I will ask the Department to make the appropriate contacts on it.

I am in some difficulty with time because I have attended three separate engagements so far today and I have two more to attend. Third party appeals are part of our planning process. We have the most open planning process in Europe. If those rights were abolished, it would remove a long-standing feature of the process. We must be careful about that. I accept there is frustration when they originate from somebody who lives in another country and perhaps visits this country for two weeks in the year. However, the local council should give some weight to these issues. I have made representations about similar cases in the past, in my capacity as a councillor and Deputy. I cannot make representations on planning issues now.

We must be careful. Our planning system is open and extremely democratic. I would be anxious to avoid making it over-bureaucratic or tilting the balance. We should preserve the openness. What we tried to do in the guidelines, and the initial figures from An Bord Pleanála support this, is introduce a modicum of common sense. We will continue to examine it. Every human system can be improved but I am averse to, and there would be little support in the House for, the blanket removal of third party rights.

I thank the Minister and his officials for attending. It was a useful exchange.

The joint committee went into private session at 2.30 p.m. and adjourned at 2.35 p.m. sine die.

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