JOINT COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE AND FOOD debate -
Wednesday, 14 Jun 2006

Visit of Delegation from German Bundestag.

Chairman

I welcome members of the Committee on Food, Agriculture and Consumer Protection from the German Bundestag and other members of the delegation who are visiting Ireland this week. I also welcome H.E. Ambassador Christian Pauls who is accompanying the delegation. The members are all welcome to this special meeting of the Joint Committee on Agriculture and Food. Our joint committee comprises Members of both Houses of the Oireachtas, Dáil Éireann and Seanad Éireann. They are equivalent to the US House of Representatives and Senate, respectively. The joint committee comprises 15 members but for the purpose of dealing with legislation we sit as a select committee in which Members of the Dáil, and the Minister for Agriculture and Food, or her Ministers of State attend the meeting.

I invite Mr. Zoellmer to introduce his delegation. I will then introduce the members of the committee.

Mr. Manfred Zoellmer

I thank the Chairman for his kind words of welcome. We are delighted to have this opportunity to meet our sister committee and look forward to discussing problems of mutual interest with it. We are having an interesting visit to Ireland including meeting farmers on the ground and officials in the Department of Agriculture and Food, and we have just come from a visit to the Food Safety Authority. This has given us a good insight into the issues and problems in Ireland and confirmed the good work being done here. We look forward to exchanging views with the committee.

Our members will introduce themselves. I am Mr. Zoellmer, from the constituency of Wuppertal and I am vice chairman of the committee on food, agriculture and consumer protection in Germany.

Mr. Hans-Michael Goldmann

I am a member of the Liberal Party. My constituency is in northern Low Saxony, next to the Dutch border. The name of my area is Papenburg where we build beautiful ships.

Mrs. Baerbel Hoehn

I was chairperson of this committee until the end of May. I am vice chairperson of the Green Party. For ten years prior to this I was Minister for Agriculture and for the Environment in Northern Westphalia, a federal state with 18 million inhabitants.

Dr. Maximilian Lehmer

I am a farmer and agricultural scientist from the Munich area. I am a member of the Christian Democrats Union, CDU, and am on the committee for agriculture, food and consumer protection.

Dr. Hans-Heinrich Jordan

I am from Saxony Anhalt and am also a member of the CDU, and of the committee for food, agriculture and consumer protection.

Mr. Holger Ortel

I come from northern Germany, Saxony to be precise, a coastal area. My interests on this committee are rural areas, consumer protection and fisheries.

Dr. Kirsten Tackmann

I am a veterinarian and a member of the leftist party in the German Parliament and come from East Germany.

His Excellency, Mr. Christian Pauls

I am the Ambassador for Germany.

Chairman

Thank you very much I will now ask the Irish members to introduce themselves.

Deputy Naughten

The vice chairman of the committee on food, agriculture and consumer protection, and his delegation are very welcome to Ireland. I hope that they find their visit interesting and informative. My name is Denis Naughten, and I am the Fine Gael spokesperson on agriculture and food. I come from the constituency of Roscommon-South Leitrim which is in the middle of Ireland where we pursue mixed farming.

Deputy Carty

I come from County Mayo on the west coast of Ireland which I represent as a member of one of the Government parties. Mayo is a large county with mixed farming, including some dairy, hill sheep and beef, and fisheries on the west coast. The next parishes to Mayo are Boston and New York. August 1950 was a lucky month for the world because the leader of the delegation and I were born then.

Senator Callanan

I am a member of one of the Government parties and am its spokesperson on agriculture in the Seanad. I come from County Cork which has one-eighth of the country's landmass. It is the biggest county in the country and wins the football and hurling competitions, from time to time.

The county has various land structures, some poor, some good and some of the best farm land in the country. It also has a long coastline where there are fishing activities and the second largest port in the country, Castletownbere. There is some forestry, dairy, beef, pig and tillage farming, and river activities. We are a humble people but a proud county. All the visitors are very welcome to come to Cork.

Chairman

I better call in the interpreter after that.

Senator Callanan

If the interpreter comes to Cork, I will give her a personal tour.

Deputy Devins

I am a substitute on the committee for my friend and colleague Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl. I welcome the delegation and wish Germany every success in the World Cup.

Senator Scanlon

I am a Government Senator. I come from Sligo, which is on the north west coast of Ireland where we have mixed farming, mostly dry stock and sheep. Like Deputy Devins, I wish Germany the best in the World Cup. As we are not taking part, we would like to see Germany do well.

Deputy Blaney

I welcome the delegation. I have been a member of the Dáil for four years. Members of my family have been Members of the Dáil since the foundation of the State, 1927. I am a member of this committee. I come from the northern part of the country, County Donegal, which is a poorer region than those of the other committee members. We find it hard to keep up with them, but we do our best. I hope the delegation enjoys its stay here and I wish Germany good luck in the World Cup.

Deputy Upton

I apologise for being late. I am the Labour Party spokesperson on agriculture and food and have a particular interest in food safety and quality. I represent an urban area, Dublin South-Central and while there is no agricultural production in the constituency, many of my constituents are consumers who are interested in the safety and quality of food. My emphasis is in that direction.

Chairman

Before introducing myself as Chairman, I apologise that the Vice Chairman of the committee, Deputy Máire Hoctor, cannot be with us today. I am Johnny Brady and I come from County Meath, a neighbouring county to Dublin. Meath is the prime agricultural land area in the country. Cork is second to it. Meath is a mixed farming area with large dairy farms, tillage and dry stock. The county is the prime potato producing county in the country.

Senator Callanan

The Chairman should announce that Roy Keane comes from Cork.

Chairman

I invite Mr. Zoellmer to make his presentation. Members will follow his remarks with questions or other members of the delegation may also wish to speak. Before Mr. Zoellmer commences, I would like to point out that the current focus of the joint committee is on issues such as biofuels, the sugar industry, genetically modified crops and food labelling, imports and safety standards.

Mr. Zoellmer

I thank the committee for taking the time to have talks with us on different issues. We have had an opportunity to get information on various topics and our common interests. We talked about possible future developments and about focal points in general. We saw that beef production is very important to Ireland, as is dairy production. We also talked about the future of milk quotas. We are all interested in these various aspects of agriculture. We are interested in the opinions of the members of this committee. For example, we are interested in hearing how the committee sees the possible outcome of the WTO round, including its impact on Irish agriculture. As this committee is called the Joint Committee on Agriculture and Food, I am interested in the area of consumer protection. Who is responsible in this Parliament for issues which are non-food related?

I have mentioned three main topics. We are very interested in hearing the committee's views on these topics and in an exchange of views.

Chairman

Thank you very much. Deputy Naughten will deal with some of those issues and Deputy Upton will deal with food safety and related issues.

Deputy Naughten

I will address the issue of the WTO and leave some of the other issues to other committee members. We are extremely concerned at how the WTO talks have progressed to date, particularly with regard to the proposed revisions being put on the table by Commissioner Mandelson. We feel that the EU position has moved too far without any concessions being received from countries like the United States. The EU should go no further until some progress is made on these issues. The possible termination of export refunds is the biggest single concern for the dairy sector. It would have a dramatic impact on the dairy industry in Ireland.

I would like to speak about other commodities, such as beef. The biggest concern in the beef industry is that third country beef imports coming into the EU will not be the subject of the EU's high standards of production and, as a consequence, high costs of production. As third countries benefit from reduced tariffs, they can dramatically undercut our produce. There is no transparency of labelling at EU level to ensure that consumers can recognise third country produce that may not meet the EU's high standards of production. Farmers in the EU, who are subject to rules, regulations and bureaucracy, have to compete on a virtually level playing pitch with farmers in third countries. The challenge faced by Ireland and other EU member states is to try to clarify and resolve that issue.

Chairman

If any of the delegates wish to ask questions at any stage, they should not hesitate. If they indicate their willingness to contribute to me, I will allow them to speak.

Deputy Upton

I will comment on the consumer and food safety issues which have been raised by the delegation. Food safety in Ireland is managed by a statutory agency called the Food Safety Authority of Ireland. The authority was established primarily in response to the BSE crisis, but it now has a much wider remit. It operates under the aegis of the Department of Health and Children — it is responsible to that Department and reports to it. This committee is also quite proactive in expressing its views on food safety and quality, as well as consumer protection as it relates to food. The members of the delegation are probably aware that the incidence of BSE in Ireland has decreased significantly. The role of the Food Safety Authority of Ireland has widened to take account of all aspects of food safety. It has dealt quite effectively with people who break the law or breach the regulations by naming and shaming them, which might sound a little harsh. If a food processor, producer or operator of any kind is found to be in breach of the regulations, the company is named on the website of the Food Safety Authority of Ireland for three months. The company is given an opportunity to redress the situation and to get things back in order before its name is taken from the website. While the approach I have outlined has been quite effective, it would be preferable if such companies were compliant in the first place. The number of companies which are named on the website is quite small when one considers the overall number of food producers.

The members of the joint committee agree that Ireland has quite a good reputation as a green and clean country. We make significant efforts to provide a great deal of information and to ensure there is transparency in respect of issues like residues in foodstuffs. A publication that is made available each year gives us an opportunity to challenge the various data and to comment on the various matters which arise. We certainly welcome that.

Deputy Naughten referred to food labelling, which is an issue that exercises the committee to a significant extent for a number of reasons. I am sure the delegation is aware of recent developments at EU level to deal with the problem of misleading claims being made on food products. The committee has some concerns in that regard, particularly in respect of claims which are made from a health point of view. We make comments on the various aspects of labelling via the Food Safety Authority of Ireland. We would like the country of origin of a product to be made clear on labels. That is particularly desirable in the interests of the competitiveness of the beef industry, to which Deputy Naughten referred. It is difficult for us to compete with imported products if we have few guarantees or assurances that the high standards which are expected in Ireland are also demanded in third countries. I hope I can answer any other questions which are asked by the members of the delegation.

Chairman

Would any of the members of the delegation like to comment at this stage?

Dr. Jordan

I wish to comment on a point which was mentioned by Deputy Naughten. At present, it is quite fashionable to talk about problems related to consumer protection, especially when it comes to globalisation and various areas. Of course demands must be voiced, because this issue is important, both for the European Union and for areas outside it. Hence, I am delighted the Deputy stated that matters must be developed within the framework of the WTO, because our products must be comparable on the markets. When it comes to competition, there must be a level playing field as otherwise, there will be distortion of competition.

Chairman

Mrs. Hoehn wishes to contribute.

Mrs. Hoehn

It is a difficult name, even for me.

I wish to return to one of the original questions raised by the head of our delegation concerning the future of milk quotas. Last May, the committee visited the Netherlands, where many farmers would like to abolish the milk quota. In Germany, many young farmers would also like to abolish it. As decoupling and greater market orientation were introduced with the mid-term review of the last agricultural reform, it would be exciting to hear members' opinions in this regard.

In addition, part of Ireland's future strategy for the farming sector is to label products as being Irish, particularly in the case of beef. Ireland wants to market Irish products with a specific label. Does this form part of Ireland's strategy as regards global competitiveness and its competitive edge?

Deputy Naughten

I will address the matter of milk quotas. The debate in respect of milk quotas, their future structures and what will happen in Ireland and at European level has just begun. The Minister has opened up the debate by proposing major structural reforms with regard to the issue of milk quota. I am sure it has been explained to the delegation that while Ireland has a national quota, there are also regional quotas based on the creamery structures. This has worked quite successfully to ensure a balanced spread of milk production throughout the country. Our concern is that if the regional milk quotas are abolished, all production will move to Cork and the southern part of the country.

Senator Callanan

Farmers from Cork will produce it.

Deputy Naughten

From that perspective, this is a contentious issue in Ireland.

From a more European perspective, the production of grass-based milk in Ireland is undoubtedly still far more efficient than in the vast majority of the European Union. This is even true of the region from which I come, which is less efficient than the southern part of the country in respect of the value output of milk. Hence, from a European perspective, it is of critical importance that the Commission's proposed direction in this regard should become clear, whether it be an abolition, or a release of additional capacity within Europe.

Opinions vary in different European countries. Due to capacity constraints, the Netherlands is anxious to have additional quota capacity. However, Finland is very happy with the present system. Hence, this is a contentious issue in Ireland and at a European level. Some indication by the Commission of its thinking in this respect, as well as of the timescale for implementation is of critical importance. In Ireland, farmers have made investments by purchasing milk quota, which constitutes a significant long-term cost. While they must be made aware of what will happen in the future, no definitive decision has been taken here, as the debate has just begun and there are mixed views as to how Ireland should go forward in this regard. Nevertheless, at present, the existing system is causing major capacity constraints in all parts of Ireland. The problem is how to ensure that expansion is permitted, while retaining some type of structure to prevent flooding of the market. The challenge is to get that balance right.

Chairman

Perhaps Deputy Upton will answer some of the questions on food labelling.

Deputy Upton

The second part of the question related to the creation of a specifically Irish brand. Such a development would be welcome because clearly, we would like to market our products as being Irish. It is assumed this would give us a certain competitive edge in terms of the quality of our products.

There is much concern about what is called "substantial transformation" and I imagine it affects all EU member states. One may import a product and, after carrying out some form of small value-add or transformation, label and sell it as Irish. This comes back to the question of identifying what is required of our labelling and what it means. I appreciate it is difficult because it calls into question the boundaries and limits of substantial transformation. It is unacceptable that one can import, say, chicken pieces from a third country, add some breadcrumbs or garlic butter and label it as Irish, German or whatever.

Mrs. Hoehn

It is a question of Irish origin.

Deputy Upton

Yes, and this problem surrounding substantial transformation applies to all EU countries. We have been encouraging our Minister to take it on board and do something about it.

Mrs. Hoehn

What would the WTO and the EU Commission say to Ireland?

Deputy Upton

I suspect they would not be fully supportive. It would be seen as anti-competitive.

Chairman

A few members have indicated that they want to speak. In view of the time constraint I request that they ask quick questions and we can discuss other issues over lunch. I will take two or three quick questions together.

Senator Callanan

I understand the time constraints and will confine myself to the one issue about which I have concerns. As a farmer I produce food and represent the farmers of Ireland. While we have learned to live with the changes and challenges that have come from the Common Agricultural Policy, we are concerned about the World Trade Talks. We are concerned about Commissioner Mandelson's approach. Do the delegates share our concerns? We want to remain in farming and food production and operate to high standards, which we do so well. It is important to our economy. Ireland is a small nation, but many of our people are engaged in agriculture. It is important to us and to our economy. I am sure the German people would not share the same concern we have about its importance to their economy. We do not like Commissioner Mandelson. Do the Germans like him?

Chairman

That is very personal.

Deputy Blaney

It is personal. I will not be as personal.

Senator Callanan

We are in the survival game.

Deputy Blaney

Senator Callanan knew the answer to that question before he asked it. I have a particular interest in biofuels. I have read about them in Germany and I would like to hear the deputation's opinion on how biofuels and alternative energy crops have helped farming in Germany. Has it helped or hindered farming? How far has the area been developed in German farming? In Ireland we are just beginning to see the benefits of biofuels and alternative energy crops. Could they have a positive outcome for Irish farming?

Mr. Zoellmer

On the question whether we like Commissioner Mandelson, the situation is similar in Germany. We must maintain a productive, efficient farming sector in the long run, thus the concessions made in the current WTO round were not easy for us either, particularly regarding the phasing out of export subsidies. Given that Germany is export nation No. 1 there is a major interest in the non-agricultural field and we sometimes have to disagree with our colleagues who represent the interests of the non-agricultural export industry. It is important for Germany to have a successful conclusion of the WTO round, particularly as we do not want to do long-term damage to agriculture and have adverse structural changes. We could not live with that.

Senator Scanlon

My question is related to Deputy Blaney's. Biofuels will be interesting for this country in the future. What support does the German Government propose to give to farmers to produce fuel crops such as rye or rape seed? Does it intend to grant-aid the farmers? As the price is only €70 per tonne, it is not economical to produce.

Mr. Zoellmer

Renewable resources and bio fuels are of major importance. We need new sources of income for our farmers and we have discussed the challenges ahead posed by Common Agricultural Policy reform and the World Trade Organisation. It is important that farmers not only be producers of agricultural products but also energy providers so biofuels and renewable raw materials have a vital role to play in Germany. During the last legislative period renewable resources received much support in Germany and we will continue to support them because oil prices will remain high in the future. There are intensive discussions going on regarding possible taxation rules on biofuels. The question on energy taxation relates to keeping the sector competitive. Nothing has been decided yet but a decision will be made before the summer recess.

Mr. Goldman

We do not support the cultivation of these crops but we support the use of the use of their yield so taxation will provide advantages if rape seed is used. Farmers will also receive a special price for feeding renewable energy into the grid. The Act on the Support of Renewable Resources and Energies lays down these rules.

We must decide what needs to be done and where to do it. In my constituency there are 18 million chickens and land is needed to dispose of chicken waste. This does not pose a problem in my region but in regions such as Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania and Brandenburg the use of renewable resources in this context could become an issue.

Discussions are also going on relating to the burning of cereals. This may be a problem in Ireland, perhaps because of the churches. In Germany it is not an issue, Mrs. Hoehn felt it is not right, but representatives from both German churches attended a hearing and said they were not opposed to it.

Chairman

Two members of the committee came in late, perhaps they would like to introduce themselves. Senator Coonan has a question.

Senator Coonan

If the Chairman insists I ask a question then I will do so.

Chairman

The Senator should first introduce himself.

Senator Coonan

I want to extend céad míle fáilte to the German delegation and offer my apologies for being late due to reconstruction work on the Naas autobahn. The traffic stretched back as far as Killarney. I hope the delegation enjoyed its stay here. My question relates to tillage and the production of malt and barley. Has the delegation tasted Guinness and how does it compare to German beer?

Deputy Ferris

I welcome the delegation and apologise for being late. I am on a number of committees and was therefore unable to arrive on time for this one. I come from a farming background and understand the similar concerns in German and Irish farming. There are difficult times ahead but also exciting times in that the small and medium sized farmer will have to diversify in order to survive.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Zoellmer and the delegation for meeting us today. It has been an interesting exchange of views. I hope the rest of the stay will be interesting and we will meet the delegation in the private dining room for lunch where we can continue our discussions. I especially thank the interpreter and apologise for forgetting her in the early stages of the meeting.

The joint committee went into private session at 12.20 p.m. and adjourned at 12.25 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 21 June 2006.