JOINT COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE AND FOOD debate -
Wednesday, 4 Oct 2006

New Futures Group: Presentation.

Chairman

The committee is now in public session. I remind members and witnesses to ensure their mobile phones are switched off for the duration of the meeting. This is an important courtesy towards witnesses and committee members. It can cause serious problems for broadcasting, editorial and sound staff. An apology has been received from Deputy Crawford. The minutes of the meeting for 26 September have been circulated. Are the minutes agreed? Agreed.

Before commencing I want to draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, the same does not extend to delegates appearing before it. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the House or an official by name in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I welcome Ms Bridget Kirwan, Ms Sheila Hoctor, Mr. Paddy Stapleton and Mr. Pat Duggan from the New Futures Group, who are here to make a presentation on a new programme for farmers, entitled Changing Times for Farmers and Farming. I understand Ms Kirwan will make the introduction and the other members of the group will share the presentation. I now call on Ms Kirwan to begin.

Ms Bridget Kirwan

My name is Bridget Kirwan. I work with the Tipperary Institute and we are very grateful for the opportunity to make this presentation to the committee. As the Chairman has indicated, we will share the presentation between us. Each of us will play a role and we will explain as we go along, if that is all right.

I work in the Tipperary Institute and we have been working together on a new futures programme for farmers that has as its lead partner, St. Sheelan's College, Templemore, since October last year. Because of the significance and impact of the programme we felt it was important to bring it to the committee's attention. That is what we now propose to do.

In the context of agriculture, there is very little I can tell the committee that it does not know already. However, I want to focus on the people behind the statistics. The statistics show declining farming numbers, lower incomes and higher dependence on subsidies as well as increasing isolation. The programme is trying to address the personal stories behind these statistics.

Farmers find they must work longer hours for less pay to produce a product no one seems to value. They see others earning greater incomes, with easier lifestyles. They have an increasing burden of monitoring and control. People suggest to the farmer that he or she should make changes. No one says how these changes should be made, however, and that is what is different about this programme. It is a programme that helps people to make change.

In the context of the Celtic tiger culture, one can imagine that there are many alternatives. What we have found among farmers, however, is a widespread inability to take advantage of this. In introducing my partners I should reveal that I am married to a farmer, so I am not speaking from outside the business. However, I work for Tipperary Institute and Ms Sheila Hoctor will talk about the programme in a minute. Mr. Paddy Stapleton is a working farmer, so to speak, who participates in the programme. Mr. Pat Duggan is a working farmer who also works outside farming. He will talk about the programme and how it has worked in other areas as well. We again thank the committee for its invitation and will be pleased to answer any questions. I will hand over to Ms Hoctor who will talk about the programme.

Ms Sheila Hoctor

The initial meeting took place in Thurles in October 2005. Farmers who attended recognised they needed to make changes, but did not know how to go about it. We responded to this need by offering the programme. The programme we offered had three elements — there was an element of one-to-one coaching, a training facility and a facilitation capacity. In the one-to-one coaching people had an opportunity to interact with a coach. In doing so they were able to verbalise their thoughts. Often the coach challenged their thinking, when previously unknown options surfaced. For example, a farmer might say to me that he or she could not do something and I would ask which part he or she could not do. Suddenly, they were able to separate the wood from the trees and began to realise they could do other things.

The second part of the programme involved training. Here there was an element of personal and business development. Of great benefit was the fact that farmers had the opportunity to come together to discuss the problems and to look at the barriers they regarded as major obstacles and break them down. There was also a strong element of setting goals for the future. As the programme got under way I could see their confidence growing and developing.

The third phase, which was really important, meant that there was someone available at all times to maintain the group. For example, quite a few people would contact me before presenting for an interview to find out what they needed to do. As a facilitator, I have no doubt that this type of programme is necessary. I am also married to a farmer. Because farming is in their blood for up to ten generations, farmers find it very difficult to make the change. They do not realise the multitude of skills they possess which could be applied elsewhere. What often strikes me forcefully when I am coaching farmers is that certain individuals could be millionaires if they had applied those skills in any other area of life. There is no doubt about that.

I have watched these people grow and develop, taking up opportunities as they presented, which heretofore they had not recognised before the programme came on stream. Farmers are so resilient and constitute an enormous human resource. If we choose to ignore this and let them go to seed, rural Ireland will be worse for it. However, if this resource is mobilised it will be a force to be reckoned with in the future.

Mr. Paddy Stapleton

I should like to give my experience of the new futures programme. I am farming for the last 25 years, and am married with four children. For various reasons I am the sole income earner in my household. Farming has been my work all my life. Like all farmers I am experiencing decreased income and longer hours trying to make something work that is not inclined to do so. On top of that are the increased regulations and expectations from the various agencies. If one adds a dash of isolation, frustration and much self-doubt into the mix, one has a very potent cocktail which can erode belief in one's self. Grass began to appear on the roadway and although there was no sign saying "cul-de-sac", it certainly began to look like one to me. That led me to the new futures programme.

I saw an advertisement in a newspaper. I was starting to bring my problem indoors. Farmers always say that so long as one can keep it outdoors, it is not too bad. However, it was beginning to come inside for me. I reached out to the new futures programme and found the one-to-one counselling very challenging. Even though farming was difficult, at the same time I could only regard myself as a farmer, and did not see the wood for the trees. I could not see what changes I could make. I could only see matters in a farming context and had no view of the wider world. The programme has taken me back to the time before I became a farmer, helped me to appreciate the talents I use and challenged me as regards using those talents outside farming as well.

The second part of the programme, the benefits derived from the group sessions, became very important to me. I had seen it as a personal failure on my part when a farm would not work, despite all the hours I had put in. It was very encouraging when we realised that this was a global phenomenon that will happen no matter what is done. One might have thought that when all these farmers got together, it must have been very negative, but we blew our steam the first night and got it out of the way. The people who came together were very positive and they made positive moves to try a different role for themselves outside or inside farming.

I have made those changes and got over some of the fears of making them. I started some computer courses, which is something I thought I would never do. I moved the farm into forestry, something which was almost taboo in our area. It has taken courage to do these things, even though they might sound very simple.

I still hear other farmers saying that things are going from bad to worse and wondering what they can do. I have done something and I appreciate the chance I got. It will stand to me and I hope it will help me open more doors.

Mr. Pat Duggan

I am coming at this from outside the Tipperary experience just to show that the Tipperary experience is not unique. I am a dairy farmer from Ballacolla in County Laois. About seven years ago I realised that income from farming alone would not give me a reasonable livelihood in the future, so I went back to college and I obtained a diploma in rural development by distance learning at UCD. I was lucky enough to get a job to manage aproject in County Laois. The aim of the project was to re-educate and upskill farmers for off-farm employment. I had a pool of money to run any courses I needed to run. Farmers came to me and asked what I could offer them. I offered them a number of courses but they said they had been farming since the age of 17, were now between the ages of 35 and 55, and did not know what to do to get from the farm to deciding their future. This programme is about taking the steps to make changes in their lives. Courses are no use unless the person is in the right frame of mind and can recognise his or her skills to take that step.

That pilot project in County Laois was very successful, but its EU funding only lasted for three years so it did not go any further. I am involved in a project in Wexford. The Minister of State, Deputy Browne, launched a booklet last spring containing the different educational programmes in Wexford. About 400 hundred farmers attended that function and it was the same story. They did not know how to get from where they were to where they wanted to be. An interim programme such as this is what is needed. The benefits to the rural economy would be vast because these farmers have management and practical skills that would be useful in other areas of the economy, but this needs to be highlighted to them. That is what this scheme is about and it is hoped that it can be rolled out throughout the country.

Ms Kirwan

People need help while processing change because it does not happen overnight. It is not unique. If I have been a teacher all my life and then discover I need to change, it is not going to happen just because somebody says I ought to change. It needs a process to help me with it. While there are many other useful initiatives and many alternatives are available, we found that the programme led by Mr. Duggan in County Laois and his programme in Wexford are the only ones available. We only managed to work with approximately 20 people in this programme, but we found that people started asking about it when it was already up and running. We now have a problem because we cannot do it again as it was funded under a Leonardo project. We cannot find the funding to make it happen again. That is the problem and we are here to make a case for that funding.

We have asked people what benefits they have obtained from the programme. Mr. Stapleton was good enough to come along and give his point of view, but he is representing other people who have made these changes. The participants in the programme have said that they have an increased self-belief that they can do things. They have set up clear goals and objectives because the theme of being stuck inside a box arose repeatedly. A change of thinking is needed. Somebody once said that the same level of thinking that got us into this mess is not the same kind of thinking that will get us out of it. A capacity to see outside the box is needed because when things are really bad, we often cannot see the wood for the trees. Ms Hoctor pointed out that people often do not realise that the skills and ability they obtained on the farm are transferable anywhere else. A capacity to find one's own solutions to a problem is also needed.

We welcome any questions and comments and we hope we have given committee members some food for thought.

Deputy Naughten

I welcome the delegation. I heard a small bit about this programme from Senator Coonan. The group's objective was to look behind the statistics. In his presentation, Mr. Stapleton put flesh on what was being discussed and I thank him for that. It is interesting to hear about the hands-on approach. A delegation visited us from Australia last year which spoke about women in farming and the challenges facing women in that country. They took a hands-on approach to the issue and have been very successful.

The basic point of the presentation is to coach farmers and get over the mindset about change. Is the group mainly focused on farmers who farm part-time or cannot make a full-time income from farming? Is the objective to focus on an off-farm return for the farmer or is it to look for the challenges in the farming operation? Organisations such as Teagasc have taken over this role as agriculture has changed in recent years. Do the witnesses believe that there should be an onus on Teagasc to fill the void that has been created by this?

It was acknowledged in the presentation that there is a major problem with isolation. More people live in rural Ireland today than in the past 30 or 40 years, but few people are there daily. I recently spoke to a postman who told me that he could do his postal run three times as quickly today as he could 20 years ago because he does not meet people.

Has the group made a submission under the rural development fund, the partnership talks taking place or under the consideration of the national development plan to see if the pilot schemes in Laois and Tipperary can be mainstreamed?

Deputy Upton

I welcome the witnesses and thank them for their presentation. This is a very interesting initiative and recognises the need for such a programme. The group has been successful in encouraging people to come on board to participate in it. The delegation acknowledged that aside from the problems of making a change, it can be difficult for people even to acknowledge the need for such change. The first step in this regard is to get involved by talking to others and learning what is on offer.

The delegates mentioned the importance of looking behind the statistics to the reality of people's lives and the challenges they face daily. Given the many negatives associated with farming today, many farmers are concerned that their future is anything but secure. Some of these negatives are real and they will not disappear simply because we want them to. Globalisation is a fact; we all know about cheap imports and other forms of competition. That will not change. We must face up to and find ways of dealing with the new environment, which is a source of significant concern for those engaged in the business. There are no simple or easy solutions and it can be emotive at times for those who have given their entire lives to tending their land and maintaining their heritage.

I understand there were 20 participants in the first round of the New Futures Group course. Have more people expressed an interest in coming on board? From what parts of the country did the participants come? I am also interested in the co-operation or links, if any, between the New Futures Group and Teagasc and FÁS, two agencies that also have a role in this area. How did the delegation interact with those agencies and what resources, if any, did it avail of from them?

People now have many different types of training courses to choose from. In Dublin city, for example, hundreds of evening courses are open to the public. Is there any follow-through in terms of ascertaining what course participants are doing now? It is easy to sign up for a course and attend the first three or five classes with great enthusiasm. The drop-out rate, however, tends to be high from many courses. How does the delegation measure the success of the course in terms of how people have progressed, taken the initiative and come to grips with some of the difficulties they face?

Ms Kirwan

I will try to answer most of the questions and will ask Ms Hoctor to deal with Deputy Upton's questions because they deal specifically with the course. We may have created a picture of the New Futures Group as something much larger than it is. As with many positive initiatives, we grew from something else, in this case, a Leonardo project in conjunction with St. Sheelan's College in Templemore. The steering group to oversee the programme included representatives from Teagasc and FÁS. The programme began last year and is ending now and there is no organisation behind us to assist with the submissions and so on. Perhaps something will change in view of what we have learned today. We are not a large organisation that can support a major initiative but I hear what Members are saying and it may be something we can explore in future.

The point about isolation is interesting. Farmers increasingly find that they have reduced contact with neighbours and instead of the vet calling to the farm, for example, they must now leave him or her a telephone message to explain a particular animal's ailment and its location. We are not here to discuss the issue of how these changes affect rural social structures but it is something of which we are conscious.

Teagasc, as I said, was part of the steering group. This method of partnering with Teagasc initiatives has worked well. Teagasc provides several useful services but some people must be enabled and assisted in making the necessary changes before they can avail of those services. Furthermore, there is a perception that Teagasc provides solutions that are within the farm gate, but some farmers have come to a recognition that the answer does not always lie there and must be sought elsewhere. It is not to disparage Teagasc and its activities by pointing out that such an approach can be limiting. Our perspective is different. Sometimes people need to be pointed in the direction of a computer course, for example. The answer may not be found within the farm gate.

A question was asked whether we work primarily with part-time or full-time farmers. Our focus has not been to stipulate certain outcomes that determine a participant's success or otherwise but rather to help participants in discovering and attaining their own definition of success. Some of those who participated in the programme have large farms that generate good incomes and they are in a position to take action now. We did not want such people to reassure themselves that everything is fine only to discover in five years' time that they are left with no choices. Some participants were already engaged in farming on a part-time basis and wished to improve their situation. Others were somewhere in between. We did not seek to prescribe answers but rather to help participants in finding the answers for themselves. We wanted to help them cast off what Mr. Stapleton described as a mindset of negativity and go on to find solutions.

Ms Hoctor

As Ms Kirwan stated, 20 people participated in the New Futures Group course in Tipperary. I was also involved in the Crossroads programme in Offaly. Although the latter was aimed at a different cohort of farmers who came mainly from the smallholder service, I found the mindset and problems were similar in both programmes. An amazing aspect of the New Futures Group course was that, despite the foggy weather, there was 100% attendance at the five nights of training. That speaks for itself. People wanted to learn how they could move forward. I said the fog almost reflected our situation in that we too were trying to work our way through a fog.

A particularly positive outcome of the course was that the participants constituted their own group and continue to be active in this collective guise, as Mr. Stapleton will explain. They are taking ownership of their situation. Neither I nor anybody else can prescribe the answers. What we can do is acknowledge that these people have enough resourcefulness in themselves to find their own answers but that they need assistance in working through the process.

I was heartened some days ago when it transpired that a person to whom I was providing life coaching had taken part in the Crossroads programme in Offaly. He told me this programme had thrown him a lifebuoy. I could see that the stress had left his face. During a coaching session, I have to ask the challenging question when it is appropriate. One man said to me it is a question he has often asked himself but he had never waited for the answer. In a coaching situation, he could no longer sidestep the answer. Most of these people have moved on to rural social schemes and various activities in the smallholder service. Their lifestyles, quality of life and confidence are all enhanced. That is what it is all about. Many of the New Futures Group participants have joined organisations such as the toastmasters clubs and have started doing courses they would never have thought of doing heretofore. It is an ongoing process.

Mr. Stapleton might speak about the group that was activated as a result of the New Futures Group programme.

Mr. Stapleton

When the programme ended, we maintained ourselves as a group and organised ourselves to continue in a collective effort. It has been beneficial to us to remain in contact and to meet on a monthly basis or whenever an issue arises that we wish to discuss. We have kept the positivity going. Nothing comes without effort and one will sometimes fall back into what was safe. When people come together for a common purpose, it is possible to feed off the positivity and keep the momentum going.

Deputy Upton observed that it is easy to join courses in September. Is it correct to say one is successful in notching up seven or eight courses? I do not believe success can be measured in those terms. It is measured, rather, in terms of changes in mindsets. It is measured in terms of forcing oneself to open doors. If a door does not open, one moves to another door instead of backing away. While it is hard to measure, this is how it should be done.

Mr. Duggan

On the Laois experience, we had approximately 250 participants over a three year period and this programme was the starting point for all of them. As Mr. Stapleton noted, it was necessary first to change mindsets and attitudes and to get people to think positively about themselves and their skills etc. At the end of the three year period, more than 100 participants had progressed to courses or to off-farm employment. Others were engaged in getting their act together at home in order to get involved outside their farms.

Part of our brief on the EQUAL initiative was to integrate with FÁS, Teagasc and other organisations. While we had FÁS participation, this was due to the good offices of the local FÁS representative. Farmers as of right do not come under FÁS schemes. However, when it had discretionary funding, it allowed us to use its services. We also integrated the Teagasc programme into our programme. The skill set required to run a programme such as this is unique and differs from the skill sets in some organisations. This is all I have to say in this respect.

Ms Hoctor

We worked in conjunction with Teagasc in Offaly and I heard one of its advisers state on local radio that she felt this was the missing link in its options programme. If people are not ready for change, there is no point in providing them with many options to confuse them. The first points to address are the personal issues, mindsets and the entrenchment of thought for up to ten generations, during which people knew nothing outside of farming, followed by the realisation and liberation of knowing that such skills may be applied elsewhere.

Deputy Hoctor

I also welcome Ms Kirwan, Ms Hoctor, Mr. Stapleton and Mr. Duggan before the joint committee. I commend them on their work. I am familiar with both the work of the New Futures Group and the benefits that have followed for the participants who have undertaken the course at the Tipperary Institute in Thurles. I fully appreciate the work presented to the joint committee by the New Futures Group. I am convinced that all four witnesses speak for thousands of farmers who do not realise there is a solution and way forward from the familiar territory of being master of one's own destiny, which was their experience for many years. The future is uncertain for many of them unless, as the witnesses noted, they identify and tap into the missing link whereby they can find their own resourcefulness.

The experience of moving from the familiar to the unknown is the critical step in this process. The Department of Agriculture and Food - no doubt under the instructions of Europe - has been effective on the issue of traceability. I refer to paperwork in respect of animals, accountability and the necessity of correct figures. However, the farmers who have delivered such traceability throughout the years have been almost left aside. Members recognise clearly the transition that farmers experience at present. While many farmers have not yet articulated it, a programme such as this has brought people together in many ways to the point where a support network is now in place for them, which was not the case previously. Farmers should be brought to a point where they realise that others are still in searching mode and wish to develop their skills. Such skills include those that exist already, such as their familiarity with nature, the land and the soil, as well all those that are available through the technological world. If such skills can be brought together, all the better.

The Thurles project programme, which was presented to the joint committee today, is the only example with which I am familiar. Through it, I have realised that farmers have seen the way forward. The receipt of assistance from experts through the coaching and counselling programmes and so on has helped them to identify clearly the next step they must take. They know they do not take that step alone. It is most important that this kind of programme not only continues, but is also made available to farmers nationwide.

My colleagues have mentioned the assistance of Teagasc in this regard. While Teagasc may have a role, I am not fully convinced of this because Teagasc is the advisory group in the agricultural setting. Ms Kirwan mentioned that this process involves moving outside the farm gate. While it will not be left behind completely, it involves looking outwards and availing of the computer courses and other courses mentioned by Deputy Upton, in order to prepare people and help them to recognise exactly what are their skills.

Members are familiar with periodic factory closures. Long before a factory closes, its employees are informed of the closure and the redundancies to follow. Moreover, FÁS has been highly effective in acting to upskill the workers and to prepare them for the new workplace. However, this has not happened for the farming community. While farmers are moving from self-employment, to where should they move? Although many want to continue in a farm setting, they know that this now must happen outside the farm gate. It is extremely important that programmes such as that under discussion are developed and supported financially. It is also important that farmers are enabled to receive training to work in the mode of counselling and coaching that has been presented to them thus far in the Laois and Tipperary programmes.

It is important to put in place a clear structure in this respect. While this was a successful Leonardo programme, it cannot remain as such. It must be developed, sustained and supported by the Department of Agriculture and Food and by the rural development section within the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs. The Chairman will recall that some months ago, the committee heard a presentation from officials from the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs. I recall that Mr. Donal Coleman was among the officials who attended. They discussed with the committee future funding from Europe for rural development. Presentations such as that given to the committee today should be examined under that funding programme. Perhaps the committee should call on that section of the Department to re-examine this issue.

When farmers get as far as recognising what they must do, structures must be in place to fund them to avail of the desired courses and training. At present, there is a difficulty in this regard. Farmers who undertake diploma courses sit beside people doing the same course who, because they are former employees now receive FÁS funding. However, farmers are not considered in the same light and must fund themselves. The joint committee must examine this issue. I ask that the committee make this known to the relevant Department through FÁS and through the Minister for Agriculture and Food, Deputy Coughlan. Farmers are being deprived and discouraged from future training because of the existing mechanisms, which I believe must be changed.

As Mr. Duggan noted, the programme was undertaken successfully in counties Tipperary and Laois. Where else have such programmes been implemented?

Senator Coonan

I welcome the delegation before the joint committee. While it is always a pleasure to welcome witnesses, the pleasure is all the greater when they are from County Tipperary and from County Laois, our good neighbours, and when the course itself has been based in my home town of Templemore. I congratulate Mr. Dan Condren, principal of St. Sheelan's College, Templemore, on his commitment to running programmes like this and on the facilities he provides, despite having been underfunded for some years. I hope the Taoiseach, following his recent visits, has provided funding which the college desperately needs to provide adequate facilities to people such as those present today who run courses there. I am sure they would support a call for funding for St. Sheelan's, as would everybody present today, in particular Deputy Hoctor.

Nobody could deny the programme is excellent. Now is an opportune time because the present structure of single farm payments provides a window of opportunity for people living in rural Ireland. I noticed an interesting statistic recently relating to farmers. Only 20% of farmers make their living solely from agriculture. That means 80% do not make their sole living from agriculture, which highlights the need for programmes such as the one offered by the New Futures Group. I agree with Deputy Hoctor's point about Teagasc and on the need for funding for such courses.

Both committee members and witnesses today have spoken about the isolation of farmers, but nothing isolates farmers more than the Government's present education policy. I know at least one person on the programme who went on to study for the certificate at Athlone IT. He had to pay €2,700 for the privilege of doing the course and did not qualify for funding because it was not a Teagasc-based course. The people taking the course with him were funded to the tune of 70%. If that does not isolate farmers and the rural community, what does? The policy needs to be changed.

Somewhere between 40% and 45% of farmers want to do non-agricultural courses, which causes a problem with Teagasc, whose courses are based on staying in agriculture, which is fair enough. It raises the issue of where to find a suitable home for this project and where that home should be. People who have done the course and some who administer it have indicated a preference for the Leader programme or an ADM programme, which would be all-inclusive and would not marginalise and isolate farmers to the degree that has been acknowledged today.

The second issue the group raised is also important and concerns continued funding for the programme. As I understand, the programme has now ceased and there is no further funding for it to run, either in Templemore or the IT. That is a shame and represents a lack of planning on the part of Government and those who deliver educational or agricultural services. It is a shame that a programme which brings much added value to the farming and rural community is dropped in this way.

That problem exists in education in general. The Department of Education and Science understands primary education because it is streamlined in a bureaucratic way, as are second level and third level. However, when it comes to the céim eile, as Mr. Dan Condren would say, when people want to take another step, officials from the Department are lost in bureaucracy. One might as well try to speak to the man on the moon as somebody in the Department of Education and Science to deal with a problem in further education, lifelong learning or céim eile. They are very interesting topics that will come more to the fore as we approach a general election. The same applies to the funding of St. Sheelan's. It is not a recognised college in the mindset of the mandarins in the Department of Education and Science or those in Government, who do not see the value of St. Sheelan's or the conditions for the students who attend it. It is unbelievable in this modern age that they must put up with facilities such as those.

I am delighted that the New Futures Group has come before the joint committee to bring this issue to the fore and give it publicity. It throws down a challenge to every Member of the Oireachtas present to deliver on this programme and ensure it becomes part and parcel of the education system, especially in rural Ireland. I commend the group on its work in that direction and salute it for it as well.

Chairman

Is the college in question an agricultural college?

Senator Coonan

The college was a vocational school.

Chairman

This is not an educational committee. Do not raise issues of that nature.

Senator Coonan

The Chairman asked a straight question——

Chairman

I asked if it was an agricultural college.

Senator Coonan

Will the Chairman allow me to answer? It was a former VEC school which was closed down.

Chairman

Then it has nothing to do with this committee.

Senator Coonan

It now runs agricultural courses, among other things.

Chairman

It runs agricultural courses.

Senator Coonan

It runs the course in question.

Chairman

That is fair enough, but I do not want to get involved in a discussion on it if it does not run agricultural courses.

Senator Coonan

The course was administered by the New Futures Group in St. Sheelan's College, Templemore.

Ms Kirwan

Deputy Hoctor asked where the course was run and Deputy Upton mentioned it earlier. We have used the word "programme" rather than "course" for a particular reason. That is because we see it not just as training but a process of coaching allied to the training provided. The experience is not confined to agriculture. The experience in industry has been that training on its own does not work. Allied with coaching, however, it does work and that is what makes the difference. We are bringing the experience of industry into agriculture. We do not believe that simply running training programmes is the answer.

Our course in County Tipperary is very similar to the one in Laois. A new course is about to start in Wexford but there are no others. The Crossroads programme in County Offaly is similar and allied to the smallholder scheme of the west Offaly partnership.

Chairman

That answers all the questions asked.

Deputy Ó Fearghaíl

I will be brief because all the pertinent questions have been asked. I was not familiar with the work of New Futures Group but its presentation was one of the most fascinating we have heard in the past four years and the group is to be complimented on its work, especially on the balance it seems to have achieved in recognising the needs of the agricultural community and the requirement to promote on-farm development and off-farm income earning capacity.

What support has the group received from the major farming organisations? My observation is that almost their entire focus is on those in full-time commercial farming. They seem to have too little interest in the growing number of people who are also dependent, as Senator Coonan mentioned, on off-farm incomes.

If I understand it correctly, programmes such as this proactively encourage diversification and personal development, empowering people to go out and build better lives for themselves. At a time when uncertainty on the European and world stages, not to mention what might happen locally, is one of the things which most frightens the agricultural community, there is a great need for mentoring, support and encouragement for the farming sector. The people with the greatest need are those who will always be last to come forward. Has the New Futures Group a vision of how it can contact those people who have not and are unlikely to come forward in future? To give FÁS its due, in many parts of the country it is actively engaged in seeking out the long-term unemployed to arrange personalised training for them.

Considerable success has been achieved with targeted programmes. Youthreach programmes for 15 to 19 year olds spring to mind which have been very effective in targeting young people who have fallen out of the system. The group talked about mainstreaming its work. Does that mean targeting farmers as Youthreach has 15 to 19 year olds? What methodology does the group have in mind for that? Where should such an initiative find a home? Would it be in agriculture, education or rural community development?

Senator Moylan

I apologise for being absent; I had to return to the Seanad. I compliment the group on its presentation.

I am concerned about overlapping involvement with other organisations. From a farming point of view, Teagasc is well staffed and financed. This goes for agricultural colleges as well, which many people involved in agriculture today have attended. I have experience of the smallholder scheme in west Offaly and I have the height of praise for it and what it did for smallholders. There will be a cost factor if it is to be expanded and we must consider the bigger picture regarding other bodies financed to look after the same interests the New Futures Group represents.

Deputy Ó Fearghaíl made a point relating to co-operation the group might receive from organisations such as Macra, the Irish Farmers Association, IFA, and the Irish Creamery Milk Suppliers Association, ICMSA. How are these farming bodies helping the New Futures Group?

In Offaly there were Leader, ADM, Wider Options and a large number of other organisations. They may be wrapped together but for a number of years people felt that it was quite confusing, that there were too many bodies and too many schemes. Each had to find a specific niche.

I found the smallholder scheme in west Offaly to be excellent. The problem I perceived was that many major farmers, who were well able to pay for advice, sought to avail of the advice the scheme offered.

Mr. Duggan

We do not see this scheme as being in competition with other organisations, it will run in conjunction with the likes of Teagasc, FÁS and so on. This scheme provides the missing piece that will bring farmers as far as these organisations. There is a problem with farmers' mindsets and they need to be convinced that the skills they have are transferable and can be used to positive effect. This is what we aim to do. We are not in competition with other organisations. We will provide the missing piece.

Ms Kirwan

Recruitment to this programme was a case of self-selection. We placed an advertisement inviting people to come along and they did so. We recognise that this cannot happen all the time and that, as indicated in the programme structure in the document, in other environments there will be a need for a specific recruitment initiative. As Deputy Ó Fearghaíl suggested, people will be targeted. In Laois this was done by knocking on doors and showing people how the programme could work for them.

Deputy Ó Fearghaíl asked if we have a vision and, if this is a request for more details, they can be provided. This is a sophisticated programme and some people will self-select and be easier to work with in terms of their preparedness for the task. Others will find it difficult to accept and seek change, and it may be necessary to go and find them. Ms Hoctor will speak on this with regard to smallholders.

Having worked with Macra previously I will not say anything bad about it. I have also spoken to the president of the IFA and I know it is supportive of this kind of programme. Its agenda is based on farmers creating income which will help people avoid the situations this programme will deal with.

The plethora of different agencies often presents people with a problem. This is a rural development issue as much as an agriculture issue. People who need help, whether with a business idea or a training programme, could knock on many doors before receiving the right answer. We will not suggest that the funding should be given to Leader or Teagasc. We merely feel we have a relatively simple way of making this happen. In the programme I have simply suggested that if a facilitator were appointed and given a budget, a great deal could happen. I will not make it more complicated than that as the committee would have more wisdom on where the programme should be housed than we would.

Coming back to Dan Condren and his role in St. Sheelan's, a steering group has been created that includes representatives from Teagasc and FÁS. This is an important element because we want everyone singing from the same hymn sheet in support of this programme.

Ms Hoctor

In the Tipperary programme the people self-selected and, as a result, it was as though when the pupil was ready, the teacher appeared. Ms Kirwan and I worked with these people and saw outcomes. People were liberated by being able to verbalise their thoughts and realise options existed.

I then started on the Crossroads programme in Offaly where the participants did not self-select. Somebody knocked on doors and suggested to people that the programme might be useful. I was apprehensive and did not think the same outcomes would result with these clients. In fact, I was pleasantly surprised. It is almost as though the discussion is the result. Once one has a person with whom to share thoughts in a confidential way, options become apparent.

Regarding overlapping with other organisations, we have worked closely with Teagasc. After coaching and training we moved into the area of options and considered the range of organisations and services of which the participants could avail. This worked very well and we ultimately assembled the action plan in association with Teagasc. As has been said, we supplied the missing piece.

This programme is different because a different mixture of skills is needed to mobilise the participants so they can make their own decisions. I know these people are highly resourceful, having met them in a banking capacity for a number of years. Unfortunately, work in farming has dried up and skills must be applied elsewhere.

A combination of coaching and training seems to be the right mix and this model has come from the business world. Statistics showed a department that used training alone had an 18% success rate. This rose to 88% with a blend of coaching and training.

Mr. Stapleton

I wish to make a point relating to Senator Moylan's comments. There is frustration among many farmers because they know they still have much to offer, yet they seem to be on a staircase going down. They do not feel they get returns on the effort they expend. These farmers represent a resource that could be tapped. I am aware of the issue of costs but I feel there is a large return to be had if this resource can be harnessed.

Senator Callanan

I confess I was fascinated by the presentation and congratulate the group on its endeavours. Muintir na Tíre started out on that route at one time. Is the delegation taking a leaf from that book? I have not heard of the organisation before. Its endeavours are to be lauded.

There is a plethora of organisations and the New Futures Group would say it recognises that and works with them. If one goes back to the days of the advisory service in the 1950s and 1960s, one will recall that advisers visited farmers and encouraged them to receive education and develop farming. They did extraordinarily good work in those darker days. We then got the client list where those who would pay for the service got it and, to put it crudely, others were left out. There was no service if they did not pay for it. I thought the advisory service had changed for the worse. I am beginning to wonder if the group is picking up from that point. Does it see that there is no coming together, no education at the facility, no drive or encouragement for rural Ireland? Is that its real role? I do not know if it is, but that is the vibe I am picking up. I would like clarification on that.

Senator Coonan

Where funding is available for training or upskilling, it should not matter to the rural community whether it is a FÁS or a Teagasc course. People should not be excluded because it is not a Teagasc-based course. Does the group accept that? Where can one find more information on the course or learn more about the New Futures Group?

Chairman

Some groups, especially in urban areas, can draw down funding easily. However, a group such as this which is doing tremendous work and helping people who were self-employed but who now have to go into the formal workplace, has difficulties. In my town the board of management of one of these groups resigned because it felt the money was not being spent wisely. Despite this, it still seemed to obtain money easily while the New Futures Group cannot get it. It aggrieves me very much and it is something that should be changed, and rapidly. It is important that groups such as this from rural Ireland should be helped.

Ms Kirwan

St. Sheelan's College has a website through which we can be contacted. I work with the Tipperary Institute and Ms Hoctor works with the West Offaly Partnership. We would all be glad to talk to the committee about the particular programme afterwards. As regards the theme of FÁS placing the farmer at a disadvantage, our experience is that it is not as uniform as it might be. I agree with the committee that one should not be disadvantaged because one undertakes a Teagasc rather than a FÁS programme.

I remember writing an article for the Irish Farmers’ Journal once and someone told me that they were glad I had done so because it brought some hope. We have had enough of the negativity and would really like to provide some hope. From our point of view this is about facilitating change and allowing people to move on rather than getting stuck on the same roundabouts all the time.

I wholeheartedly agree with the Chairman. We would like to have access to funding for these types of programmes. We would then be able to show people how it works, get the money and make it happen.

Ms Hoctor

That theme has come across forcefully. People have told me that there is so much negativity in farming that they are becoming negative themselves. This is prior to intervention when, suddenly, they are liberated. Without vision, people perish, but with vision, people prosper. We might set the vision for the future by making this presentation to the committee. It would be a shame to allow these farmers to go to seed. There is so much untapped resourcefulness. One can imagine the energy and self-fulfilment these people would have by separating the farm from themselves. They need to see the farm as a separate entity and see themselves as a highly skilled people with an offering to make to society.

Chairman

I thank the delegation for its presentation. When I received the correspondence from the organisation, I wondered who they were and thought it might be another pressure group trying to meet the committee. Deputy Hoctor approached me explaining that the group is active and doing good work. By listening to the group today, everyone can see the marvellous work it is doing. The proceedings of the joint committee will be sent to the Minister for Agriculture and Food. We should also send them to the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Ó Cuív. The rural affairs section of his Department might find that useful. Perhaps funding could be found from that source. I thank the witnesses for their interesting presentation. I wish them well in the future.

Senator Coonan

I propose that we contact the Minister for Education and Science and the Minister for Agriculture and Food so that adequate funding is made available for projects such as this, and funding for Saint Sheelan's College to deliver the project.

Deputy Hoctor

I made the suggestion that funding must be made available for this project. Farmers who have graduated from programmes such as this and who have identified the courses they want to undertake will find that FÁS training does not recognise them. As they were self-employed, they must pay their way through their diploma or degree courses. Had they been employees in a factory, their courses would have been 70% funded. That is clear discrimination. Given that this joint committee speaks for farmers, we should put that case to the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, who has responsibility for FÁS, and have the discrepancy addressed immediately.

Chairman

Is that agreed? Agreed.

The joint committee went into private session at 4.20 p.m. and adjourned at 4.40 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 18 October 2006