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JOINT COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD debate -
Thursday, 30 Apr 2009

Rationalisation Plans: Discussion with Teagasc.

On behalf of the committee I welcome Professor Gerry Boyle, director of Teagasc, and Mr. Tom Collins, assistant director of the advisory service. I thank Professor Boyle for appearing before the committee at such short notice. The committee invited Professor Boyle and Mr. Collins to brief it on rationalisation plans for Teagasc offices across the country. Some members wish to raise the issue of the REP scheme. If they are unable to reply to the committee on that issue, perhaps they will do so, in writing, over the next few days.

Before calling on the witnesses to make their presentation, I draw to their attention that members of the committee have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before it. I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I invite Professor Boyle to make his opening statement.

Professor Gerry Boyle

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee for accommodating us with the earlier time. I thank the committee for the opportunity to speak here this morning about the rationalisation, or change plans, recently adopted by Teagasc. It would be useful if I gave an overview of the entire change plan of which the rationalisation of offices is one element. I will cover the issue of the REPS contract staff.

We will have a copy of the presentation which is being run-off at the moment.

Professor Gerry Boyle

I would like first to put in context that the rationalisation plan has been driven by the budgetary situation in which Teagasc has found itself, in common with many other State agencies and Departments. Originally our grant-in-aid budget for 2009 was reduced by €10.5 million which, when pensions are stripped out, is a cut of approximately10%. Following the recent budget, additional reductions in our grant-in-aid of €2.7 million were implemented. We are facing a reduction in our grant-in-aid of €13 million, which is substantial. Given the preponderance of pay in our expenditures, the bulk of that will have to be taken by non-pay elements, which obviously is a major concern to us because it affects services. The authority took the view that it wanted to minimise the impact on the services to our farmers, clients and food companies that we are mandated to serve and it was in that context that the rationalisation plan was brought forward. The budgetary position is a critical context. It is important to state that while some aspects of the rationalisation plan would have been necessary in any event, it has been precipitated primarily by the budgetary position.

We have had to take stock of the full complement of our resources across the organisation. As members will be aware, we have a wide mandate that covers research, advisory activity and also education. We have taken full stock of resources across the organisation in putting together the rationalisation plan. The key principle the authority has adopted is that we would try to minimise the impact on priority services for our farmer and food company clients.

Some members may recall that last year we published a report called Teagasc 2030 which identified two issues. First, it identified the type of challenges and opportunities facing the agrifood sector into the future. Second, we identified what Teagasc as an organisation, in collaboration with other stakeholders and agencies, would have to do to be fit to take on those challenges and exploit those opportunities.

For instance, we identified areas of research and science that Teagasc would need to develop, notwithstanding the difficult budgetary position, in areas like animal crop and food bio-science in particular. We also identified the need for common technology platforms, especially in grassland and animal production, to support the industry.

A point I reiterated on several occasions recently is that the agrifood sector is a substantial sector of the economy and particularly important in the current recession. It accounts for 9% of employment and has a major impact in rural areas, with which the Deputies and Senators would be familiar. Exports are a critical feature of agriculture and food and therefore agriculture, because of its low import content, contributes on a net basis much more substantially to gross national product, GNP, than other sectors of the economy. The challenge we face into the future in the first instance is to try to prioritise our areas of activity to ensure we can meet those challenges and do that in a much more stringent budgetary context.

The so-called change plan we produced, which is available on our website, has been extensively covered in the media. That change plan covered all aspects of Teagasc functions. It was drafted in the autumn of last year and completed in the spring of this year. It was fully endorsed by the Teagasc authority in March and we then set out about an extensive internal and external communications plan to communicate what are in many cases very difficult decisions for our staff and stakeholders.

The change plan covers all aspects of Teagasc functions, including agriculture and food research, the advisory service and education. That was important because we had to have a balanced rationalisation plan. It is important in appraising the plan to take note of the fact that we needed balance in the various functions we are mandated to deliver.

We attempted to prioritise programme areas which we believe will be the most important for farming and rural communities in the future. There is no doubt that difficult decisions have had to be taken which will impact on our staff and on our stakeholders but the authority and I believe these decisions are correct for the organisation to take at this time.

I propose to go through the headline features. Deputies and Senators will have questions they want to raise but the first area I would like to draw their attention to is that we have made substantial changes in internal structures within the organisation. We have to examine putting in place a fairly lean management structure if we are to make rationalisations across the organisation. A key decision we have made is to reduce the number of senior managers, that is, heads of directorates, from six to four. We have amalgamated the food and agricultural research directorate. We have streamlined our administration services into a single directorate. We have established what we call a new knowledge transfer and education directorate because a real challenge for an organisation like ours, and many organisations involved in research and development, is to transmit the knowledge we have generated from our science and research into practice on farms and in food companies. Knowledge transfer is a major function and in the current financial difficulties we must exploit our available knowledge to a far greater degree. The final directorate is what we call the area unit directorate. Members would be familiar with the advisory services throughout the country. Those are the senior management changes.

We have made changes also in regard to research and I will identify a number of those for the committee. We have set up a single animal production and grassland research centre to harness the resources of the different elements such as beef production research, dairying, sheep production and so forth in a much more effective way. We have had to take a very difficult decision to discontinue our in-house production of commercial soil analysis at Johnstown Castle. We will issue tenders to private laboratories to supply that service under our control. We have an effective national farm survey, one whose standing is among the best in the European Union, but it is a costly survey and we have to come up with a different model for delivering it.

On the food area, in response to several entreaties from the food sector to deliver technology more effectively to small and medium-sized enterprises, we have established an SME technology transfer service and we will work closely with Enterprise Ireland to transmit the most up-to-date technology for the benefit of the SME sector. That is being done by reallocating staff from lower priority areas to this new service.

Also, we have had to take a close look at our land resources, both leased and owned land, for research. The decisions we have made amount to a reduction in approximately 30% of the land area devoted to research. That will involve a termination of the lease of the hill farm in Leenane which has been used for sheep production and hill sheep research. We will consolidate our research on sheep at our Athenry site.

We have taken a decision also to sell the farm at Kilmaley at which dairying on wet land was examined. That project has reached a natural conclusion. The staff at that farm will be absorbed into priority areas of the organisation. That covers the research area.

On education, the major decision is to rationalise our college structure. As members are probably aware, Teagasc owns four colleges and we also subvent four private colleges owned by the religious orders, the Franciscans and Salesians. A decision has been taken to close Warrenstown College at the end of June. That leaves three private colleges and four Teagasc colleges. We have had to rationalise that college structure, with the primary purpose of bringing about a more effective educational service and enabling us to use much needed capital resources in a more streamlined way.

The educational structure involves the designation of three lead colleges and 11 regional educational centres which will absorb the educational activities that were previously conducted from local advisory offices. The two lead colleges will be Kildalton in County Kilkenny, which is our flagship agricultural college given its scale in numbers of students and teachers, and in Ballyhaise, County Cavan, while the Botanic Gardens will be the lead horticultural college in the country. We are in the process of selecting the sites for the 11 regional educational centres. Clonakilty will be the lead regional centre for the south west and we are in the process of choosing the other sites. We have invited all the private colleges, such as Mountbellew in Galway, Pallaskenry in Limerick and Gurteen in Tipperary, to apply for status as a regional educational centre and we are in the process of negotiating with those organisations.

On the advisory side we have made a number of significant changes in the way we do business. A factor that has motivated the changes we have implemented is the fact that in the past few years technology has completely transformed the way we do business; for example, the mobile telephone is a hugely effective device for communicating with our clients. Farmers appear to like the mobile telephone and use it. They have it with them constantly and it has proved very successful. We also use the web very effectively. Electronic media are used widely throughout the organisation. It has transformed the way we can deliver services and has required us to examine the traditional structures we have had in place for the delivery of service.

We are substantially revising our rural development advisory programme. It is particularly apt at present when there is significant unemployment in the construction sector. Many farmers would have been employed in that sector on a part-time basis. They are now back on their farms and are seeking opportunities to exploit both their farming enterprise and to develop other rural businesses. We are revising the way we structure our rural development programme to try to assist farmers in that context.

Committee members who are familiar with the advisory service will be aware of the so-called good farm practice cohort of advisers. We have had a long examination of that and we are now of the view that a substantial number of those advisers can be reassigned, and retrained where necessary, to a dedicated environment and technology service which will complement our business and technology service. I have spoken previously to the committee about the environment. There are huge challenges before the agri-sector at present of a technical and demanding nature and we believe the service must be able to cope with those demands.

With regard to the rural environment protection service, we are working on a new model to deliver planning services to farmers. As the committee is aware, 101 of the 160 REPS planners are contract staff. These contracts cannot be renewed when the first tranche expires in June this year. The second tranche expires in December, while the final tranche expires in June of next year. Under the embargo announced in the recent budget the contracts cannot be renewed. We face a huge challenge in dealing with this transitional arrangement. In the first instance, we are very concerned about the 101 planners. These are exceptionally talented people who have been delivering a great service for the organisation, and farmers throughout the country appreciate the quality of that service. The planners are mainly young, enthusiastic agricultural advisers who had a not unreasonable expectation in different times of having a career within Teagasc on a long-term basis. However, the budgetary situation has changed that prospect for them.

From Teagasc's point of view, we are very concerned about this. A substantial number of clients, probably up to 17,000, are being handled by these 101 advisers. They generate substantial income for the organisation, which impacts on other aspects of our service. We must be mindful of the impact that a sudden removal of this service will have on the organisation generally. For that reason, we are engaged in negotiations with the REPS planners to put in place an alternative service that would have at its core a sub-contracting element. In other words, these advisers and planners would be invited to become registered contractors to Teagasc. We hope we will make progress on that front. I believe it is a feasible solution to the debacle we face in regard to REPS.

With regard to office rationalisation, the authority has decided on an initial phase. We have approximately 91 offices throughout the country, both owned and leased. It is very difficult to justify such an extensive office network in the current climate. We have closely examined how we might rationalise it and have decided on a first phase reduction of 18 offices, which would reduce the number to 71. Eight of the offices are owned and ten are leased. These offices will be closed over a two and a half year period. Eight will be closed towards the end of this year, eight will be closed next year and two in 2011. The changes will involve 27 locations, in the sense that there will be implications for other offices on foot of the closures. Some offices will be merged. Discussions are also taking place with the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food on the sharing of premises in six locations. This idea of using State resources efficiently has been mooted for some time and we are in the process of trying to make it a reality where we believe it is feasible.

The selection of the 18 offices was based on a number of rigorous criteria. Foremost in mind was the financial viability of an office, so the number of clients served by an office was crucial. We are of the view that approximately 1,000 clients would be required, and it is probably a conservative number, to keep an office going in the long run. Other criteria were the geographical location of our clients, as accessibility was an issue, and the number of advisers in an office, which is tied in with the number of clients. One simply cannot have an effective advisory service in offices where there are only two or three advisers. Critical mass is required to deliver a modern advisory service. Given the complexity of the issues that confront farmers today, there must be the critical mass to have the specialists within an office who can service the needs of farmers. The number of advisers, therefore, was a critical concern for us.

Obviously, the advisers must also be serviced by administrators, so where there is an office there is a requirement for administration within that office. That is difficult to justify with small numbers of professional advisers. Another consideration is the physical condition of the buildings. In many cases they are very old buildings that must be substantially renovated or, in many cases, replaced. We also examined opportunities to merge offices where that was feasible and, as I said previously, opportunities to share premises with other agencies. Finally, in the context of rationalisation, we tried to identify where we could make financial savings in overheads and staff numbers and, in the case of the offices that we own, to realise the capital value for ourselves and the State. An organisation such as ours has huge capital needs on an ongoing basis and one of the ways we can secure capital for the future is by constantly reviewing our portfolio of assets, and offices are a key element of that.

This is the first phase. Obviously we wait in anticipation, if not trepidation, for the report of the so-called An Bord Snip Nua. Clearly, all the indications are that the advisory office network is something they are looking at closely. So I would not be too surprised if, later in the year, we will be obliged to look for even further rationalisation of our office structure.

On staffing within the organisations, I have talked about the advisory contract staff, but more generally the change plan involves significant changes for our staff. We have engaged in an extensive process of consultation by utilising to the full the partnership structure within the organisation. I have led a series of meetings with staff right around the country, so we could explain the logic underlying the rationalisation plan and, hopefully, by working together minimise the adverse impact on our staff and especially our stakeholders. I am happy to say that within Teagasc there is a fantastic esprit de corps. The commitment of people to serve the interests of clients is something which is widely appreciated around the country, especially in the farming community.

As the committee knows, we are no different to the rest of the public service. We have to implement Government decisions. The recent decisions taken in the budget will have a significant impact on the organisation. For instance, we face a complete embargo on the recruitment of all staff and we also face an embargo on promotions. These are severe restrictions. While every organisation is affected, one can imagine that in an organisation like ours that requires highly skilled people both on the research and advisory side, it is difficult to cope with a ban on recruitment. One cannot readily substitute a person that might retire with someone else unless they are technically and professionally qualified.

At this stage within the organisation there has not been a huge interest in the voluntary early retirement programme that has been announced by Government, although I expect people will reflect on its terms. I envisage there will be a significant fall in the permanent staff complement by December 2010. I want to re-emphasise that these adjustments are obviously painful for us and for the clients we serve, but they are essential given the reduction in our grant in aid, which is substantial. We want to try to maintain priority services in these difficult circumstances.

I already mentioned REPS, but I remind the committee that in addition to permanent staff, Teagasc would typically recruit about 200 contract staff across the organisation. Roughly 120 of these would be in advisory services and the remainder would be contract researchers. These contract researchers are employed typically as a result of Teagasc being successful in competitive State and EU-funded competitions. I am glad to say that we have been very successful in this area. However, we now face an embargo that will not only affect the REPS staff but will affect contract research staff. Within the next 16 months, for example, about 115 of the advisory service staff contracts will terminate. Similarly, a substantial number of research contracts will also terminate over the same period.

While a great deal of attention has been paid, and rightly so, to the situation of REPS contractors, I emphasise that on the research side at the moment we have several contractual commitments that involve hiring staff. In other words, we have already won fully-funded research contracts that require us to hire up to 70 contract staff to fulfil the terms of those contracts. With the embargo, however, we face a difficult situation whereby we will not be able to fulfil those contracts even though they are fully funded. So we are facing a very real dilemma.

Into the future, in the normal course of events, we will vigorously pursue all opportunities to win competitive research contracts. If we cannot have a relaxation in the embargo as far as contract research staff are concerned, we will have to reappraise our entire strategy in that regard. We will be potentially in breach of contract obligations on several existing contracts, unless the embargo is amended in some way on the research side, in the same way as we understand it has been done for universities. We collaborate with virtually all the universities on this island, but they are being treated differently to us in this respect. We will be effectively prohibited from pursuing non-grant in aid sources of funding for essential research activity.

To summarise, the change plan for Teagasc — all of us, including the executive and the authority — has involved taking difficult and, in many cases, painful decisions. I assure the committee, however, that those decisions were taken on foot of a realistic appraisal of the implications of the budgetary situation facing the organisation, not just this year but over the next few years. They were also taken in light of our determination to minimise the impact on the services we deliver to our clients. Those decisions have been taken by the authority and the executive is now in the process of implementing them. That will involve extensive consultation with all of our staff in the organisation. The overall objective of the change plan is to ensure that the priority areas of Teagasc's work and services can be maintained in the current difficult economic environment.

An emphasis on investment in innovation — in this case, in the agri-food sector — is one of the strategies that I have no doubt will enable the economy to emerge out of the recession. Innovation is at the core of competitiveness, which is what we are about in Teagasc.

Thank you very much, Professor Boyle. I will now take all questions together and because Professor Boyle has another meeting at 11 o'clock I ask members to be brief.

I welcome Professor Boyle and Mr. Collins. This meeting was scheduled at short notice, so I appreciate their attendance. I have another commitment so I will be brief.

I am concerned by what I perceive to be the drift in Teagasc away from an advisory service to compliance for farmers. Compliance is of enormous significance for farmers and, given the plethora of schemes, Teagasc is involved in a hand-holding exercise with farmers to ensure they maximise their entitlements. However, in today's climate it is critical that advice is put back at the heart of the advisory service, rather than compliance. Compliance is essential, but so too is advice. I am concerned about the loss of 101 REPS planners, in addition to the other services they could deliver at farm-gate level to farmers, if they were retained. I would like to know the future for the REP scheme and Teagasc's participation in it. I understand the Department has been in consultation with Teagasc and has requested a report on the organisation's future involvement in REPS. In today's climate I agree with Professor Boyle about innovation, but at the farm gate it is not just about compliance, it is about initiatives and enterprises that can be established on farms. The advisory service has strayed significantly from that over a period of years because of the plethora of schemes. I would like to think there is a commitment to getting back to that aspect of Teagasc's functions.

I am concerned about the rationalisation of colleges. I very much appreciate the financial constraints but I want Professor Boyle to assure members that any student who wishes to attend a college to pursue an agricultural education — fortunately, there has been a significant increase in the numbers attending in recent years — will not be turned away by virtue of the rationalisation programme envisaged. That, coupled with, for example, developments in the installation scheme, would be an enormous blow to new blood entering the industry, which is critical.

In that context of agricultural colleges, to be parochial there is considerable disappointment about the downgrading of Darrara agricultural college in Clonakilty where there has been significant investment, for much of which I must pay tribute to the former Minister for Agriculture and Food, Joe Walsh, who, I suppose, looked after his own patch. The downgrading of Darrara college as an outreach centre, given that we in the Cork area would like to think it is an engine of the commercial agricultural sector, is regrettable in that climate.

The 101 rural environment protection scheme, REPS, planners are a source of income to Teagasc. The figure in the public domain is in the region of €3.5 million generated from client payments. Has Professor Boyle gone to the Department of Finance? I might ask my colleagues on the Government benches the same question. An embargo is a crude instrument. Has Professor Boyle gone to the Department, on a case-by-case basis, including Teagasc's research obligations and the outside funding it attracts, stating these are a source of income and that Teagasc will be dealing with not only a €13 million cut in income but with a €16 million reduction if these REPS planners are not enabled to continue operating for Teagasc. In addition, there is the research side of that.

The Dunmanway office serves a large number of clients in my constituency, and also Deputy Sheehan and Deputy Christy O'Sullivan's constituency, and that is one of the offices unfairly targeted. I would ask Professor Boyle to have a look at that office again.

I thank Professor Boyle for his presentation. I was one of those who asked for the meeting on office rationalisation in my constituency and I am being parochial in this regard.

There are rumours in the constituency that would affect my home town. Teagasc has a leasehold title on a very valuable site in Sligo and we are told that office will be sold. We are also hearing that the office in Ballymote, which is a rural town with a mart two days a week at certain times of the year, might be sold as well and that a new site may be bought seven miles away to build a new office. I do not know whether this is fact or not, but I have grave concerns about this.

I understand that 70% of Teagasc's client base is registered in the Ballymote office. I can understand the logic of moving the office in Sligo because there is a low customer base in Sligo, but I do not understand the logic of selling the successful office in Ballymote where 70% of the client base is registered, possibly because of the mart which farmers attend at least once a week. In my opinion, as someone in the auctioneering business, the value of the office in Ballymote would not generate enough to buy a site in Killooly, seven miles down the road, and on which Teagasc must build an office. It would not make economic sense.

There is spare capacity in Ballymote. I gather there are four permanent staff from Sligo who would have to move or transfer, and if an extension was needed, it would make much more sense, especially in these stringent economic times, that it be built onto the Ballymote office which would serve the entire county.

I understand some of the clients who live in north Sligo, which is the other side of Sligo town, are registered in the Ballymote office because they find it more convenient because they attend that mart. I would like to hear Professor Boyle's views on that.

I welcome the presentation from Professor Boyle. He might clear up a misunderstanding I may have regarding these REPS planners who are on temporary contract and, in particular, his assertion that it will not be possible to retain them owing to the introduction of the embargo in the budget. I was of the view that Teagasc had a process in place to rationalise the process by which it holds on to these planners long before the budget, certainly based on representations I received from REPS planners who seemed to suggest to me quite some time ago that Teagasc had effectively indicated to them that they would not be employed under the current arrangement. Professor Boyle might help me by clearing that up because it seems to me the budget is being blamed when, in effect, Teagasc had already decided a process before the moratorium on employment came into place.

Following on from that question, which budget has caused the greatest pain? Is it the budget of October last or the subsequent budget? I note a sense of deep frustration from Professor Boyle, especially in his concluding remarks, that he feels like he is being asked to operate — I am only interpreting what he said — with his hands tied behind his back. There is an ability to procure money for research funding, employ staff and carry out research and advisory work in the manner in which universities and other education bodies are able to do, but owing to this embargo, is it true to say that it would be impossible even to seek that funding any more? Are we cutting off our nose to spite our face?

I understand that rationalisation and ongoing assessment is something that needs to be done and should be done where the profile of the clients changes and people have facilities that are no longer as useful or as profitable and they can be re-organised. There should be an ongoing review. People should never say that they have it correct because next year it will be different. That is not a problem.

Teagasc will lose 101 out of 160 REPS planners serving 17,000 clients at a time when there are compliance issues, there is uncertainty over the new nitrates directive and new technology and research is being carried out. Yesterday we heard a presentation from Conservation Agriculture Ireland about a new mindset approach to the way that tillage — cereal farming, in particular, and other crops production — is carried out, a practice that would reduce labour, inputs, carbon emissions, etc. It certainly seems that it should be embraced. Teagasc has been helpful in that regard. Mr. Forrestal and others have carried out much research work in this area.

We call Ireland a food island and an agriculture-based country and there is 9% or 10% of employment in the agrifood and food and drinks sector. If we do not continue to carry out research and development, to educate and advise, we will be left behind.

There is access to information, advice and research through the Internet, but someone must transfer that to young potential farmers, to existing farmers and into the system in general. I do not know how it could be stated in last night’s Private Members’ debate that we are enhancing research and development initiatives, etc., while at the same time the supply of money to an efficient training, education and advisory organisation is being cut off. This matter must be reviewed. I am of the opinion that there is a coded signal in Professor Boyle’s comments. A certain level of frustration is apparent because Teagasc cannot do its job without the provision of adequate resources and support.

I apologise that I was not present for all of Professor Boyle's contribution. This is an extremely important matter. I thank Deputy Scanlon for putting it on the agenda and thereby bringing it to our attention.

I was alarmed by what was stated earlier. Innovation is fine but if the necessary level of investment is not put in place, the farming population will suffer. The best thing Teagasc ever did was to provide farmers with advice, particularly in respect of improving the quality of their soil, upgrading their out-buildings, etc.

I do not like the words "amalgamation" and "rationalisation". Neither amalgamation nor rationalisation has ever worked to the benefit of small farming communities in rural areas. There is an excellent Teagasc office in Dunmanway in west Cork, which services the three peninsular areas in the county. The total area of those three peninsulas is greater than that of certain counties. They are thinly populated and agriculture is the main occupation. The fishing industry, which became bedevilled by red tape bureaucracy and quotas, has disappeared. Are farmers in rural areas in Donegal, Galway, Mayo, Cork, Kerry and elsewhere to become the next victims of such bureaucracy? Are there moves afoot to interfere with the Teagasc office in Dunmanway. Some parts of the Beara Peninsula are located 50 to 60 miles from Dunmanway. If people were obliged to travel to Cork city, another 40 or 50 miles could be added to their journeys. The position is the same with the Sheep's Head Peninsula and the Mizen Head Peninsula, where I reside. The office in Dunmanway has served the farmers of the area well.

Four months prior to the 2007 general election the Dunmanway office was threatened with closure. Some 1,000 farmers protested about the matter two weeks before the election and the Government wisely conceded that the Dunmanway office would not be interfered with. However, the matter has again raised its ugly head. On this occasion 10,000 farmers will protest if the threat to close the office becomes a reality. The position will be the same in respect of Ballymote and other offices throughout the west, and the south-west and north-west regions. It makes no sense to interfere with a system that has worked well and that has made a huge difference in the lives of farmers.

Professor Boyle indicated that Teagasc will lose 101 out of a total of 160 representatives. Will this reduce Ireland to the status of a Third World nation? Will farmers no longer be provided with advice? The Department must realise that we are not contributing to the European wine lake or to its citrus fruit bank. However, the three main industries in Ireland are agriculture, fisheries and tourism, and the latter two have almost vanished. If the proper infrastructure is not in place to attract tourists, one might as well say goodbye to them. The position is similar with fisheries, but Europe's plans in respect of this industry are being renegotiated. If agriculture is not promoted or funded in a proper manner, what occupation will farmers pursue?

Agriculture is the only industry we have left. I will not live to see it but it has been stated that in 30 years' time——

The way the Deputy is going he may yet make it. As matters stand, he might not be finished his contribution in 30 years.

——we will not be in a position to grow enough food to feed the population of the world. Are people completely blind to this eventuality? Some of those present, including Deputy Dooley, may live to see it become a reality. I take this opportunity to issue a warning that all hell will break loose if anyone interferes with the Dunmanway regional office.

The REPS planners have been doing a tremendous job and we are all concerned about them. From what Professor Boyle stated, it is my understanding that Teagasc is negotiating with them to continue their work on a contract basis. I hope the negotiations in that regard prove fruitful.

There has been a great deal of discussion regarding the Teagasc office in the town of Kells where I live. I compliment the staff of the office who over the years have provided a very good service to the many small farmers in the area. However, with the headquarters for County Meath located eight miles away, I can understand the need to move staff. I am sure the staff in question will continue to provide a good service in the area. They are available on two days each week to meet farmers at the mart in Kells and I hope they will continue to be available, even if it is only once a week or once a month. How many staff are employed at the Kells office? I hope there will be no redundancies and that the staff will merely be transferred to the office in Navan.

There was a great deal of discussion on the research centre in Grange. I am glad the reports about that centre did not prove to be true because the service that has been provided at that research centre is excellent. People in County Meath are extremely proud of the centre in Grange. I compliment the management team there and, in particular, Mr. Eddie O'Riordan, who has always been extremely forthcoming in the context of facilitating members of this committee when they had occasion to visit the centre to witness the work that is being carried out there. I compliment Teagasc on making staff available for our visits and on treating us very well.

I thank Teagasc for facilitating this committee down the years. Warrenstown College gave a fabulous service down the years. It was a private college and I know it was not the fault of Teagasc and most of the land there was sold some time ago and continued with horticultural training. I presume the college will be finishing up this year. I wish to pay tribute to the work done there. Many of the committee members, particularly Deputy P. J. Sheehan, talked on many occasions about the old committees of agriculture. Back in 1974 when I was elected to the council and was a member of the committee on agriculture, Warrenstown, along with Grange, was one of the places we visited annually. I have great memories of the college.

I am aware that Professor Boyle has another meeting to attend and I will call on him to answer the questions from members.

Professor Gerry Boyle

I will ask my colleague, Mr. Tom Collins, to reply specifically on the three offices mentioned, namely, Kells, Dunmanway and Sligo-Ballymote.

In reply to Deputy Creed's comments in which he said he had detected a drift over the years from an emphasis within the advisory services on delivering technical advice to work on compliance, I wish to clarify that Teagasc has no role in compliance or in the enforcement of compliance as this is the responsibility of the Department and local authorities. I presume what he means is that we have a significant involvement in what are termed supporting schemes such as REPS and the single farm payment and so forth, and this is true. However, I would point out that Teagasc has a substantial number of advisers engaged in what would have been traditional advisory work. Teagasc has nearly 470 advisers and 160 of those are REPS advisers so there is a substantial number of advisers dedicated mainly to traditional advisory activity. The Chairman will be aware that in the past few years we have restructured our service very significantly and we have a business and technology service which is dedicated to the delivery of technical advice.

In order to emphasise again Teagasc's commitment to traditional advice and to the importance of knowledge transfer, this is one of the reasons we have set up a completely new division within the organisation with the sole responsibility for delivering advice out on farms. This is what we call the knowledge transfer and education service. Our commitment is and will be even more so in the future, to delivering technical advice on farms to assist farmers to improve productivity and competitiveness.

Deputy Creed also mentioned the issue of college rationalisation. I wish to assure him that no student will be turned away because of the rationalisation exercise. In fact, the whole rationale for the rationalisation programme was to enhance the quality of the education service. We have a huge capital deficit in our agricultural colleges. We estimate it will require about €15 million to bring the facilities up to scratch and to acceptable standards for a modern college service. It makes no economic sense to spread €15 million — even if we could gather it together in the current circumstances — over seven or eight colleges. We simply must concentrate it and there is no point in trying to say otherwise. In order for us to be able to spend the €15 million, we have to engage in rationalisation and this was the motivation for the rationalisation programme.

The Clonakilty college is very highly regarded within the organisation and is not being downgraded in any way. Teagasc plans to establish Clonakilty as the regional educational centre for the south west. We will be developing its excellent dairy farm as a research facility. We have already moved a large herd of cows down from Athenry to Clonakilty and we are building up the herd there. We plan to establish a research facility in the same way as is being done in Ballyhaise and which has worked very well. I am confident it will also work very well in Clonakilty. In our view, what is being done in Clonakilty will enhance the stature of that college.

A number of members mentioned the REPS issue. I wish to clarify in particular the issue raised by Deputy Dooley. The sequence of events is that before last Christmas, a number of REPS contracts were fell due and we sought leave to renew the contracts at that time. The view taken by the Department of Finance was that it would only give us a temporary extension of six months on the contracts. The arguments put forward by the Department were that this service needed to be fundamentally reviewed because it was essentially a service being operated and delivered by a substantial number of self-employed private planners, and the Department could not see the logic of a State organisation being involved in direct competition with private planners. Teagasc was told in no uncertain terms that the contracts for the REPS planners would not be renewed. This was the position and Deputy Dooley is correct. However, the point I was making was that this direction became of academic interest once the embargo was introduced because the embargo put a cap on it. Teagasc has made the issues with regard to REPS clear to the Departments Finance and Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, and this has been well articulated here.

Deputy Doyle raised a number of issues relating to research funding and so forth and also emphasised again — and I agree with his point — the importance of research. He instanced a very good example of low cost tillage systems. Teagasc is doing an extensive amount of work in Oak Park so we are very conscious of what research can deliver. However, Teagasc has a substantial budget available to it from the State, from taxpayers, for conducting research. Last year the figure was of the order of €148 million. As chief executive officer of Teagasc, I do not take lightly this amount of funding as it is very significant. It is perfectly reasonably to suggest, and Teagasc accepts, that it must use that money in the most efficient way possible. We are also realistic, given the budgetary situation faced by the country, that we must adjust to a lower budgetary situation. However, I think we can do this job even better with a little more flexibility in regard, first of all, to our ability to hire contract staff where the resources are fully funded outside of the Exchequer. This is a reasonable position and I think we are being listened to quite sympathetically by the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and the Department of Finance. I have discussed this matter with the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and the Secretary General on many occasions. Teagasc believes it has a strong case for being treated in the same way as the universities.

Flexibility will evolve over the years not just for our organisation but also for other State organisations. Teagasc believes it can manage with reduced resources and get on with the job. Flexibility in the area of how we use our capital resources is very important. We have extensive capital resources and we know we have to use those wisely. However, in our view, there has to be some incentive arrangement put in place for us to do that. For instance, if we sell a piece of land that is not of strategic value, we understand the State has a claim on a substantial proportion of that land. We would argue that the State should not claim 100% of that land, and that Teagasc should be able to keep a certain percentage of it and use it for investment in developing its services. This is the kind of flexibility in how we do our business, even in a very difficult budgetary environment, which would enable us to deliver an even better service.

Deputy Sheehan raised a number of points of which I am quite conscious. I will ask my colleague to deal with the Dunmanway situation. However, I met a delegation of farmers from Dunmanway and outlined the position on office closures. I am relatively new in the job. I did not expect to come in on day one and advise our authority to close offices. That is not a very pleasant task to have to do. I told those farmers and a number of others I spoke to that they need to understand this is an issue about choice. The alternative to closing office is to reduce staff and the quality of service. No farmer to whom I have spoken would tell me he would find it preferable to reduce staff numbers or quality of service than close an office. That is the dilemma we face. It is not in itself a desirable option but we need to make the best of the situation in which we find ourselves.

There are champions for all the 18 offices. Around the Teagasc authority table, as members can imagine, each of them would have a champion. However, the overall picture is that we need to deal realistically with the budgetary situation in which we find ourselves. If it was not these 18 offices it would need to be another. As the Government has signalled that it will need an additional €1.5 billion next year and the year after, all of the agencies, including ours will need to engage in continuing rationalisation. That is the reality. For me the key issue is how to carry out that rationalisation. There need to be certain guiding principles. The guiding principle for us is to minimise the impact in so far as we can on the clients we serve.

The Chairman raised a very important point about the Kells office and the importance of farmers having some facility on a weekly basis to meet advisers at the mart, the co-op or wherever. I discussed that point with farmers from Dunmanway and said that could be accommodated. It makes considerable sense. Anything like that is certainly open to consideration. I appreciate the Chairman's comments on Grange. Regarding Warrenstown, at a pervious meeting of this committee I took the opportunity to compliment the Salesian order for decades of service to the Irish economy and particularly the agriculture sector. It has had to make its decision for the good of that order, which I understand. I reassure the committee that the students and staff will all be accommodated in so far as we can, in the Botanic Gardens by Teagasc in terms of the educational service. We also have other opportunities for more staff members from Warrenstown. It is widely accepted that the facility at the Botanic Gardens is excellent. As far as horticultural education is concerned the committee need have no fear that we will not be able to provide the best possible service.

I will ask my colleague to speak about the advisory offices.

Mr. Tom Collins

The office rationalisation process has been going on for some time but urgency has been injected into the process in the past 12 months. We have rationalised quite well. In large units like Tipperary we are down to four very strong offices. By the end of this year east Cork will have four strong locations. By strong locations I refer to the kinds of criteria the director mentioned, critical mass of staff with support staff and so on in those locations. Regarding Dunmanway, no office closure was a reflection on that office. We have seven locations in west Cork, including Bandon, Dunmanway, Skibbereen, Bantry and Clonakilty. Across the country we are trying to reduce the number. Our first trawl was 18. In terms of staff numbers and the availability of alternatives, they self-selected. If the super facilities in Clonakilty were not available Dunmanway would not be on the agenda. The other offices in west Cork have clients within five miles of Dunmanway with Bandon and Macroom coming in at one end.

From our perspective we are starting the process of reducing numbers. Members need to remember that we are trying to reduce from 91. If I were to be honest with the committee I could say that we are in more than 100 offices. The other ten or 11 would have informal arrangements where people go there twice or three times a week. We have 91 offices in which we have full-time staff. The consensus of the authority was that this was too many in the current climate. We developed a set of criteria, applied it across all locations and the first 18 emerged. As I have already said ten of those are leased and eight are owned. Dunmanway because of its proximity to what we would deem to be excellent facilities in Clonakilty, self-selected. We still have a presence in Bantry, Skibbereen, Bandon and Macroom.

In east Cork we are amalgamating Millstreet and Newmarket into one centre in Kanturk. We are already in the process of moving out of Cork city to amalgamate with Mallow to form a new county unit. That will leave us with four strong centres in east Cork, Midleton, Fermoy, Mallow and Kanturk. That is the game plan we are trying to achieve.

Geographically, a farmer in Castletownbere is 50 miles from Dunmanway. The farmer in Mizen Head is 50 miles from Dunmanway. The farmer in Sheep's Head is 50 miles away from Dunmanway. By virtue of the geographical situation pertaining to the three peninsula areas of west Cork, Dunmanway is the recognised centre for the three peninsulas.

Mr. Tom Collins

We have offices in Bantry and Skibbereen. I do not know the geography as well as the Deputy, but I presume people west of Skibbereen would hardly pass Skibbereen to come to Dunmanway, would they?

I know that but the office in Bantry is a tiny office as is the office in Skibbereen.

Mr. Tom Collins

There is a full centre in Skibbereen. It was built under the western package many years ago. The office in Bantry is definitely rented, but it has full-time staff.

Apparently——

The important thing is that they are out in the fields with the farmers and not in the office.

Mr. Tom Collins

That is the story with Dunmanway. I have been down there and met the staff. No one likes to close an office, but they are happy enough that they are going to very good facilities in Clonakilty. That is all I can say on that.

That has been on the horizon for the past decade. It did not materialise——

I ask Mr. Collins to continue.

Mr. Tom Collins

The Chairman mentioned Kells. We considered the management unit comprising Meath, Dublin and Louth. We definitely had a surplus of locations there. Given that Kells was only up the road from Navan we felt in any rationalisation plan Kells could be closed. Staff will be relocated to the Navan office with some opting to go to the Grange office which will cover south Meath. Some will go to Ballyhaise. The region will be well serviced. No closure prevents us from having a clinic service. We have a clinic service in several locations.

Deputy Scanlon is right in saying the Ballymote office in County Sligo is very strong. Almost 900 clients are being serviced from that office. The Sligo office has developed excellently. It is our model for the delivery of adult farmer training. More people are trained in that Sligo office than there were in some of the colleges. We need a good centre in Sligo. Sligo County Council wants us out of the office we have in Sligo town because it is on its property. We have a lease from the council. We felt that if we went to Collooney and built a high-quality office to serve all of county Sligo and brought Ballymote and Sligo town into it, we would be able to do it on a budget-neutral basis. That is the objective.

The mart and the county's major client base are in Ballymote. I am aware that Teagasc has a 65-year lease on a valuable property in Sligo which the county council wants it to leave. The office in Ballymote could, however, be expanded as it has spare capacity to develop. It does not make sense to move seven miles from Ballymote when the mart takes place in the town twice each week for most of the year and farmers gravitate to it. I understand Teagasc is considering moving the educational side of its operations to Boyle. Is that correct?

Mr. Tom Collins

That has not been decided.

It is a possibility.

Mr. Tom Collins

As I pointed out, the Sligo model is the template for——

Staff in the Sligo office are helpful and professional. There is no logic in selling a successful office which has secured high registration of farmers and moving to another office seven miles away. The harsh reality is that the economic return from the sale of the property will not even buy a site in Collooney given the price of land in the area.

Mr. Tom Collins

Under our plans, we will have a county centre which would meet the needs of County Sligo to the standard to which we aspire. We are not closing the office for the sake of asset disposal but to enhance service delivery. Our aspiration is to amalgamate the two Teagasc offices in County Sligo in a state-of-the-art facility in Collooney. We have done this in County Leitrim where we have a new office in Mohill. I do not deny the Deputy's point that Ballymote is a strong office.

It is a pity Teagasc has decided not to develop it.

A division has been called in the Dáil. I ask Mr. Collins to communicate with Deputy Scanlon after the meeting as unfortunately I must cut short proceedings. I thank Professor Boyle and Mr. Collins for attending the meeting and their comprehensive responses to questions raised by members.

The joint committee adjourned at 10.55 a.m. until 11.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 13 May 2009.
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