JOINT COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD debate -
Wednesday, 15 Jul 2009

Seafood Sector: Discussion.

Acting Chairman

On behalf of the committee I welcome Mr. Ritchie Flynn from the IFA aquaculture section, Ms Clíona Mhic Giolla Chuda from the Irish Shellfish Association, Mr. Seosamh O'Laoi from the Irish Salmon Growers' Association and Mr. Jan Feenstra. They are here to make a presentation on the issues affecting the seafood sector.

Before calling on the witnesses to make their presentation, I draw their attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I call on Mr. Flynn to make his opening statement, and I understand other witnesses will also contribute. We can then take questions from members.

Mr. Ritchie Flynn

From an IFA perspective, the issue of REPS 4 and the recent cuts is extremely important and I carry a message from the president of the IFA, Mr. Padraig Walsh, whom all members are familiar with. He has indicated that this is a priority for the organisation and action must be taken. It is outside our remit in one way but in another way, the availability of funding for farmers on the environmental side has a massive impact on us in the aquaculture industry because we have seen the significant benefits of REPS along the west coast of Ireland over the last number of years in improvements in water quality. That has not been followed by local authorities, and these authorities must follow the example set by the agricultural community in protecting the environment through schemes such as REPS.

I thank the Chairman and the members for the invitation to speak here today on behalf of the aquaculture industry, which is worth €120 million per annum. We last met with the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Agriculture, Fisheries and Food in November 2008 and warned the members that with each passing month, 30 jobs were being lost while the hold-up on licences and grant aid due to the Natura 2000 issue continued. Seven months later, over 200 jobs have been lost which could have been created at critical time for the country's economy and for jobs and exports, particularly in rural and peripheral areas such as the west coast.

It is beyond our comprehension and the understanding of the private sector how Government agencies and Departments do their work and how they expect industry, as the creators of employment, to do its job. We have had very constructive dialogue with the Minister of State, Deputy Tony Killeen, but the fact remains that not one of our members has had a licence reviewed or renewed, nor has the co-funded operational programme for fisheries yet opened. That is the 2007 to 2013 operational programme but it has not opened as of mid July 2009.

It has been made very clear to us that the blockage to the progress of our industry and the key factor in preventing marine farming companies from creating jobs and exports lies within the Government and its own agencies, which have nothing to add to the economy, do nothing to help competitiveness and contribute nothing to balance the books. Surely agencies which prevent employment and exports should be head of the list of an bord snip nua for immediate dissolution. Why have the Departments of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and Communications, Energy and Natural Resources been allowed to stall Government policy in creating jobs and expanding the industry? We still operate from the Cawley report, which declares that development of sustainable aquaculture industry is key for the seafood sector. We will attend a meeting with Dr. Cawley this afternoon to review progress. We will not have much to review, as Government agencies are preventing this industry from moving forward. The European Commission, which is often blamed for holding things up, issued in April a strong document on the development of the aquaculture industry in Europe. That communication was supported by the European Parliament and by the Council of Ministers. Why is Ireland bucking the trend by stalling development of the production of farmed fish?

This is getting very serious. Our sector is suffering a drain of experienced people with a great amount of talent, who are leaving to farm fish in other countries. Emigration — something we thought we would never see again — is now an issue for coastal areas. Educated young people are leaving the seafood industry in complete disillusionment to go to industries in Canada and Norway, where Governments do not just pay lip service but invest in its future. I am sorry to say that we have no great progress to report on developing the sector since our last meeting. I will now open the floor up to my colleagues to give more details on the issues that the committee requested us to talk about. I would first like to introduce Mr. Seosamh Ó Laoi, chairman of the Irish Salmon Growers Association and a salmon farmer from west Connemara.

Mr. Seosamh Ó Laoi

Dia dhaoibh, tá mé sásta bheith anseo inniu. Tá mé ag plé le feirmeoireacht bradán le 26 bliain, mar atá go leor daoine san áit thiar i gConamara. Tá sé deacair obair a fháil agus táimid ag chur go leor rudaí chun cinn.

I have been salmon farming for more than 20 years. We are in south and south-west Connemara and are part of the islands, or na hoileáin. We are near Kilkieran Bay, and it is an area in which there is no other type of work. Even in Celtic tiger times, it was hard to get employment. Many people had to travel into Galway. There were around ten companies 12 years ago, but we decided to amalgamate and we now have a company called Meitheal Éisc Teo, and 60 people now work full time on the farms. Between marketing and processing, there are another 50 people working. That is a massive amount of jobs for a peripheral area in the west of Ireland. The Údarás tried to get other jobs into that area, but it was not successful. It is crucial to our part of the country that fish farming is kept alive and that it thrives. We have gone into organic salmon farming and we could up our tonnage if we got production right, because the demand for organic salmon in Ireland is about five or six times the amount we produce.

Mr. Pádraig Ó hAoláin of Údarás na Gaeltachta said that with a relatively small amount of money, about 250 jobs could be made available. That is not all for aquaculture, but the Údarás has been crucial to us as a salmon farming community so it is important that it is kept alive and that it gets the funding it needs. Without the backing of Údarás na Gaeltachta over the years, we would not be able to achieve what we have achieved in this area. The same goes for Marine Harvest in Donegal. They are in a Gaeltacht area as well. The Údarás is so crucial and it is important that it be given the go ahead to invest in small SMEs.

Both the Údarás and BIM should be allowed do what they do best, which is encourage small businesses to compete on the national and international stage, creating jobs in coastal areas. How many jobs have we tried to create in the industry that have been blocked due to lack of access to licences and grant aid? The licence issue has gone beyond a joke at this stage. There are two tranches of finance that we could receive; one worth €120,000 and another worth €300,000. One is due to the habitats directive. We have beautiful bays in Connemara and we are all in favour of having SACs, but we were there before there were any SACs. What we were doing kept the environment going. We were there about 15 years before it was turned into an SAC at all. The Government did not do its work when the habitats directive came in. We are a small company and we cannot afford nearly €500,000. Some people must get off their behinds and come up to the plate. Between the licences and the grant aid, we are asking the committee to sort things out. We have come up to the plate and are delivering jobs. We can move the thing forward, but somebody must get the Department to do something about it. We are small developers, and we plead with this committee to move the thing forward because we cannot do it.

The Minister tells us he is making progress, and we have seen his commitment to the sector and to his brief. Huge progress has been made between the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and the National Parks and Wildlife Service to find a solution to the Natura 2000 issues. We have been looking at these economic problems for ten years, so it is crucial that we do something about them. I plead with the committee to get those issues resolved, so that we can move ahead and bring the jobs forward.

Mr. Ritchie Flynn

I will now introduce Clíona Mhic Giolla Chuda from the Irish Shellfish Association and Meitheal Trá na Rinne, who will speak about the specific issue raised by the Chairman about over-regulation.

Ms Clíona Mhic Giolla Chuda

Go raibh maith agaibh as an cuireadh a thabhairt dúinn a bheith anseo inniu. Before I start on the specific issue of over-regulation, I would mention something that I noticed recently. I was doing a little bit of research on the whole marine industry, and I looked up the length of the Irish and French coastlines. Ireland has a coastline that is about 20% shorter than that of France, yet France employs about ten times more people in the maritime sector than we do in Ireland. In terms of job creation, that is a stark statistic. The whole maritime sector is under-utilised.

One small issue I was asked to raise by one of the growers, apart from over-regulation, is that of financing of shellfish industries. We all know nobody can get money at the moment as there is a credit crunch, but there is a systemic problem in this industry and if we are to develop it in the long term we need to consider solutions. We need to get licences moving as this is one of the biggest blocks to people's obtaining finance from banks to invest in their businesses.

Over-regulation is a common complaint for all small businesses but particularly those involved in the food sector. I refer to areas such as employment law, health and safety, food safety and so on. In aquaculture we have yet another layer of red tape, much of which originates in Brussels but is transposed into law by Departments and agencies at home. Regulation of issues such as the impact of land-based pollution and water quality, for example, has been very one-sided. As the recent EPA report on sewage treatment in towns and villages has confirmed, local authorities have for far too long used the sea as a dumping ground for human waste. I will return to this issue. Fish farmers have been alone among those who claim to support the environment in pointing out this scandal. The Irish Shellfish Association was forced to bring the Government to the European Court of Justice to persuade it to implement the shellfish waters directive. It is ridiculous that we have to do this.

As recently as this week we sat around the table with the SFPA looking at figures for reclassification of bays, which determines whether farms are in class A, class B or class C waters. This has a major impact on the saleability of the product in the markets into which oyster and mussel farmers can sell. The figures for many areas have deteriorated since the last time they were considered, which is completely unacceptable. This has been caused, by and large, by local authorities' pumping sewage into our shellfish-producing waters. The imbalance in the system is that the only ones punished for the sins of the local authorities are the fish farmers, by way of this classification and by way of severe restrictions on the outlets for their products due to the deterioration of the shellfish waters. It is time the coastal county councils cleaned up their acts before Brussels starts imposing fines on the country for failing to protect the shellfish waters.

In our own case, in Meitheal Trá na Rinne, Waterford County Council is charging us more than €500 per year for an effluent discharge licence. All we discharge to sea is sea water, pure and simple — nothing added and nothing taken away. We discharge to a small stream that goes 100 yd. down to the sea. Right beside us is a pipe from which raw, untreated sewage is pouring 24 hours a day, seven days a week, into the same stream. It is absolutely disgusting. I will not go into a description of it but will let members' imaginations supply one. We are putting clean sea water back into the sea and paying for it. Incidentally, we also pay to have this tested every three months.

In 2008, IFA Aquaculture warned that the manner in which the Government transposed the fish health directive would lead to problems, and we did not have to wait long to see that. In writing the legislation into national law, the Government introduced a raft of new regulation for the industry in terms of movement, control and ever more documentation. In return for this new legislation, the industry has negotiated at EU level that compensation for culling of stocks would be available. However, the Irish Government chose to ignore this recommendation. Can members imagine the uproar if pig, sheep or cattle farmers had to have their stock culled and were not entitled to any compensation? That is the situation we are in.

Now, in 2009, with serious problems in the oyster industry and farmers experiencing fish mortality all over the place, the fish health legislation is working against the common good. People are afraid to declare their mortalities. Some have declared, and testing is going on, but we are failing to provide any reasonable solutions to the farmers whose stocks are dying at the moment. As an industry we want to work with the Marine Institute to find solutions and alternatives, but we are being hampered by the lack of grant aid available for short-term research, and the complete blockage in the licensing system is leaving producers with little or no choice as to where they can farm stocks.

The shellfish industry is by and large a producer of live animals. In my own industry we produce oysters, which are sold live. However, we are now being subjected to the same regulation as companies preparing baby dinners or sterile food for consumption. This has resulted in a completely untenable situation. Most of the companies in this sector employ anything from two to 20 people; in Dungarvan we have about 50 full-time employees. The amount of regulation and form-filling that must be done by those small companies is unbearable. Under the recent fish health legislation, for example, there are four different sections in the folder to be filled in. We have health and safety legislation, in common with everybody else, which results in many more boxes to be ticked, forms to be filled and so on.

I do not suggest for one minute that we should ignore such things as health and safety, but we need to take a common-sense approach and cut down on the number of boxes to be ticked and the amount of paperwork to be processed. We have schemes such as the eco-pact, which is a voluntary scheme for cleaning up the beaches; again, there is much regulation and form-filling associated with this. If a producer wishes to purify stock to make it available for sale to all markets, we need a HACCP plan. Employee training records, health questionnaires, cleaning records, pest control records, daily cleaning sheets, UV bulb checklists, visitors' questionnaires, SFPA inspections — I could go on and on. On top of all that we have the normal employer responsibilities such as organisation of working time sheets, PRSI, PAYE, VAT returns, interest returns and VIES returns. I will not go on with a longer list because everybody knows what is happening. We are suffocating under a burden of over-regulation and useless form-filling and box-ticking. If we are to create jobs and have a vibrant industry we need wholehearted support from the Government and State agencies and we need to make it easy for people to produce and to be efficient, to make money and create jobs.

Acting Chairman

I ask witnesses to keep their presentations short so that the spokespersons can ask questions during the question and answer session.

Mr. Ritchie Flynn

That is no problem. Our final speaker is the chief executive of Marine Harvest Ireland, Mr. Jan Feenstra.

Mr. Jan Feenstra

I thank the committee members for meeting us and for their interest in aquaculture. Aquaculture is my livelihood and I lead a company which employs 238 people in Counties Donegal, Mayo, Cork and, soon, Kerry. The company is Comhlacht Iascaireachta Fanad Teo and it operates as part of Marine Harvest, which is an international group employing 7,000 people, with a presence in 18 countries. The Irish company is 30 years old, which in itself demonstrates an element of sustainability. We have a turnover of €48 million representing total sales, of which 75% is exported. All members would be welcome to visit our operations to gain a further understanding; I would be delighted to show them around personally.

I have worked with this company for 26 years, so it is fair to say I am reasonably familiar with aquaculture and foreshore licensing, which is the main issue for me. I am also familiar with such licensing in other countries such as Norway and Scotland where we have sister companies.

The statistics I have just provided show that aquaculture can be a very significant employer and is not a Mickey Mouse business. Regretfully, the licensing system has been dogged by a lack of understanding by those who are pro and anti fishing and play key roles in our industry. Like any activity there are NGO concerns and objections, often representing personal interests and typically argued on the basis of environmental concerns. Since our activity is also a relatively new and dynamic one, human nature has to cope with this as well. There is a lot of change in the area.

What I will say now tends be received with suspicion, but it is true and is very important for the committee to understand and recognise that our farms do not thrive unless the environmental conditions are excellent. If we degrade or pollute the environment in which we operate we are the fist to suffer because it is the biological performance of our stocks that determine our product quality and the company's profitability. The truth is the environmental interests of the public and farms are the same. There is a wonderful opportunity for good, firm regulation to bring public and farm interests together, contrary to the popular belief held by some.

Sound regulation must support best practises in environmental and fish health management. It is to be regretted that this is yet to be achieved. The farmers may need additional licenses so that they can practise better fallowing, meaning the resting of sites, which allows parasite life-cycles to be broken and the sea-bottom to rest. Just as one would not plant potatoes in the same field year after year, so the salmon farm's location requires an element of rotation and resting.

When it comes to the long debate surrounding sea-lice on salmon farms affecting wild fisheries, our interests are equally aligned as farmers or the anglers wish to have above background sea-lice infestations. To achieve that the regulator should insist on farmers using more sites, while the anglers should stop objecting to those additional sites because they are ultimately integral to any strategy addressing their concerns. We are in a catch-22 situation.

Good regulation holds the key to environmental management, applying best fish health practises, our product qualities and, ultimately, our competitiveness. At the same time such regulation should address the concerns that so often dominate the regulator's anxiety and lack of conviction about our business. Ireland is an island nation and we should harvest the sea just like the land. Our Atlantic waters are pristine and can produce some of the world's highest quality fish, such as we do at Clare Island off the Mayo coast.

Farmed salmon has an excellent future as it can only be produced in a few countries. Ireland's total production this year will be about 12,000 tonnes, representing less than a mere 1% of global production, which is 1.3 million tonnes. Given that Ireland is so small we face cost competitive challenges as we do in other manufacturing activities but we have managed to overcome these through a differentiated business strategy with a focus on quality and speciality products. We sell to US and European top class smokers and retail chains who want our products. We are known for excellence in quality and food safety and traceability, and go through some 40 to 50 audits a year to back this up.

We have established an excellent reputation through endless certification and awards, but there is one certificate we do not have and we have to keep explaining it to the auditors and our customers. We do not have licences that are up to date and a licence that demonstrates that Ireland has embraced aquaculture when it operates in harmony with the environment.

Touching on what my colleagues said about Údarás na Gaeltachta, we get excellent support from the agencies such as the Údarás na Gaeltachta, BIM and Bord Bia, but no level of resources, effort or support can bring the benefit that can flow from a sensible and strong regulatory system that understands the detail and yet has a good overview. If the regulator does not show the necessary conviction, one can imagine that the full potential of the agencies is also not realised.

Acting Chairman

We shall move to the Opposition spokesman. Senator McCarthy is under some pressure in the Seanad, so I will allow him to speak first.

Senator Michael McCarthy

I welcome the delegation. The Seanad is dealing with a Bill and I will have to leave this meeting very shortly to participate in that debate. I appreciate the Acting Chairman's indulgence in this matter.

Mr. Flynn has consistently made a point. I have been spokesperson for the Labour Party on marine issues for the past two years and the licensing issue is as topical and controversial now as it was then. I take in good faith the points made about the Minister's intentions and integrity. However, it is clear that the parliamentary or Government system is failing this industry if it is unable to sort out the licensing issue. I come from the coastal economy of west Cork and people are emigrating. They will not look a gift horse in the mouth and have gone. If there is an organ of the State that is proactive in providing obstacles to an industry to flourish and progress, it should be the first item on the list of an bord snip nua. It is completely unacceptable.

I heard the points made by Mr. Ó Laoi in his contribution about the CEO of Údarás na Gaeltachta, namely, that there are departmental obstacles in terms of investment that would create jobs. I have said consistently that this is the only industry that can reboot the rural economy, if we give it the right opportunity and put the correct supports in place. If the delegation meets the Minister he will agree with its plight. If the delegation meets the Joint Committee, it will agree with its plight. However, the delegation is up against a brick wall.

I wonder if the problem is the officialdom in the Department. For example, who is the bright spark behind the licensing disaster? It is laughable. Ms Mhic Giolla Chuda made the point in her contribution about being charged €500 for an effluent licence. One sees a pipe with raw sewage being pumped into Dungarvan Bay. A report was issued recently by the Ombudsman. It is ironic we are discussing local government charges in the Seanad. It is a disgrace and a case should be made to the Ombudsman.

My Bill has come up for discussion in the Seanad. There are two questions. One concerns the issue of sea-lice and what plans are in place to stop that problem and tackle the issue. The second concerns the working relationship with the sea fisheries protection authority. Its representatives came before the committee last week. We had a two and a half hour meeting and there were many exchanges.

As another organ of the State, it should be proactively working with people in the aquaculture industry to promote it and ensure supports are in place. The supports should not be merely financial, but there should be a mindset in Departments that they are there to facilitate and proactively see development of the organisation. There should not be the kind of bureaucracy we have seen. What happened in Cromane was scandalous and we still do not know who was behind that decision. Who was the Einstein figure involved? Did somebody with a degree in lobotomy go to the Department, decide to stop this and do a U-turn with no accountability?

Many people in local authorities lost their seats on the night of 7 June. That is the slow wheel of the democratic mill in this country but at least it is transparent and accountable. What we are getting here from a Department is anything but that. I must leave the meeting and attend the Seanad.

Deputy Johnny Brady took the Chair.

Deputy P. J. Sheehan

I welcome the delegation and congratulate it on its presentation. I come from the seaside constituency of Cork South-West near Mizen Head and know only too well the trials the industry is facing in that particular area. I agree with Ms Clíona Mhic Giolla Chuda when she stated that the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government closes its eyes to councils pumping sewage out into the sea and then trivialises the fishing industry in this country.

I also want to state that 200 jobs have been lost since this derogation came into place last November. With each passing month 30 jobs are lost. Irish fish products which are farmed and delivered to supermarket shelves throughout the country can stand up to the fish farming products from Norway, Scotland, the Faroe Islands and other areas. The quality is every bit as good, if not better.

The fillets from salmon reared in Clew Bay are as good as, and better than that which one would get anywhere in the world. We should take pride in what we produce. The Department with responsibility for the marine should assist those promoters of our salmon and other industries. We are only at the tip of the iceberg in creating jobs under our farmed fish policy. I have great faith in the Minister of State, Deputy Killeen, with whom we will discuss this at the first available opportunity. He listens and is aware of the necessity to give all the support possible to create jobs in the fish farming industry.

According to the IFA, "The sector is experiencing a drain of experience and talent to other industries. Emigration is again an issue for coastal areas. Well-educated young people are leaving in complete disillusionment for industries in Canada, Norway and elsewhere". That is a fact. The best brains in our fish production industry are leaving and giving their experience to the Canadians and Greenlanders. The sooner we arrest that process the better for this country.

The IFA supports the recent comments by the head of Údarás na Gaeltachta, Pádraig Ó hAoláin when he said that relatively small sums of money invested in capital and competitiveness would make all the difference for SMEs in peripheral areas. I agree totally with that proposal. BIM figures show that for every euro the Government invests in this industry it receives €7 per year. That copperfastens the necessity to bend over backward to help the industry to continue to flourish.

Between 1939 and 1949 my father created a salt mackerel business in west Cork and exported 10,000 barrels of salt mackerel to the United States every year. That gave seasonal employment to at least 200 people in that area. The market for salt mackerel died out. He also exported lobsters and crayfish packed in tea chests with sawdust instead of ice to Billingsgate market where they arrived in perfect condition and obtained a top price. This business was stimulated by the need to make a living.

The opposition of the National Parks and Wildlife Service and the Central Fisheries Board created many stumbling blocks to the industry. How many companies have been held back by two Dublin-based Ministers? The industry is bedevilled by red tape bureaucracy. If fair play and common sense prevailed there is no doubt that it could employ ten times more people than it does. The objections of these so-called national agencies are creating trouble which must be rooted out if the industry is to be preserved for future generations.

The witnesses say it is time coastal county councils cleaned up their act before the Commission imposes fines on the country for its failure to protect shellfish waters. I agree with that point. For all the Celtic tiger era, county councils are still pumping raw sewage into the ocean which is a disgrace, and it is shocking to think that so much money passed through the coffers of this country for the past 12 years but had it been spent in the right way at the right time it would have erased those impediments. That would have been of great benefit to the fish farm industry too.

The witnesses also state "It is worthwhile repeating that salmon do not thrive at our farms unless the environmental conditions are excellent — if we degrade the environment in which we operate we are the first to suffer as it is the biological performance of our stocks that determine our profitability and the quality of our products." That is the truest word they said. Their product is up to a standard although the price may be down. The lowest priced salmon on the market might not have the quality of the farmed product. I regularly buy the farmed salmon from Clare Island. I am sure that every member of the committee agrees with me that we should do everything possible to promote this industry. We look forward to keeping in touch with the IFA and it should feel free to contact our Chairman about any grievances it might have.

Deputy Tom Sheahan

I welcome the witnesses to the meeting. I am a firm supporter of aquaculture and cannot understand why not only is there a lack of Government investment in aquaculture activities but also stumbling blocks in its way. I tabled a priority question to the Minister recently about Natura 2000. He replied that it was making headway but that was in June 2009. I do not understand how he had the neck to say that about a project dated 2000.

Last week we met the Sea-Fisheries Protection Authority, SFPA, on of whose members told us that the authority has been given the task of monitoring the Natural 2000 areas in fisheries. He said that he was confident that in my area, the Cromane fishermen will harvest mussel seed in August. I hope that will come about. The Departments of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources and the Environment, Heritage and Local Government cannot come to an agreement with the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food on an operational programme for fisheries. That is the main stumbling block.

I proposed a body recently to an bord snip nua. Mr. Flynn might indicate the body or agency he recommended to an bord snip nua to allow us examine that.

Ms Clíona Mhic Giolla Chuda said that our coastline was 20% shorter than the coastline of France but that France had ten times more jobs. Is that correct?

Ms Clíona Mhic Giolla Chuda

Approximately, yes.

Deputy Tom Sheahan

That is crazy. In my area, Ó Catháin Iasc Teo in Dingle, which is a fine facility, has no fish to process. I keep repeating that Cork Airport is the busiest fish port in the country. There is more fish coming in to this country. The boats land in Dingle, the fish is put on a truck and it is in France or wherever is the destination the following day. Why is that fish landed in Dingle, with the facility available, not processed, value added and exported? We should let Cork Airport be the busiest fish port in the country for exports, not for imports. In my constituency, and I am aware the same applies throughout the country, small communities are dependent on that. As Mr. Seosamh O'Laoi said, during the Celtic tiger years many construction jobs were created on the representatives' side of the country. They were able to provide that number of jobs, 110 in total, but that would have a massive effect on a local economy in a rural peripheral area.

The hamlet that is Cromane is totally dependent on fishing per se but the majority of the people are involved in mussel farming. Last year the Department made their life a misery. I could go off on a tangent on this whole area but it frustrates me at times. The boats in Cromane for harvesting the mussels are parked yet they can rent a boat from the North of Ireland which may be 20 or 30 years older and in a much worse condition but they have the licence through a 1964 derogation. They can rent that boat, bring it to Cromane and harvest the mussels while their own boats are parked. That frustrates me. We might need a change of power to have some influence in the entire fishing sector and to bring the value added back to the communities.

On the licences, there are people in my constituency who have been awarded grant aid but they cannot draw it down because the operational programme is not in place. If only the ordinary person knew what was going on in the fishing industry. As Mr. Flynn said, it is no wonder people are travelling to other jurisdictions to fish. They are disillusioned. The ordinary person who goes to the fish monger or a supermarket on a Friday and buys fish does not realise what is going on in the industry.

Ms Mhic Giolla Chuda spoke about the over-regulation. We would want another day to debate that aspect.

Mr. Jan Feenstra is running a very successful company but as my colleague said, they are their own protection officers. If they do not have the correct environment for their projects they will not be in profit. They are the best safeguards of that. Fishermen have been fishing around this little island for hundreds of years but we have more regulation now. As has been seen on occasion, we have more Sea-Fisheries Protection Authority officers on the piers than boats. I get frustrated at times about that.

Will Mr. Feenstra indicate whether the farm in Kerry will go ahead this year? On the last occasion he was before the committee he was hopeful. I have spoken to him since but is he hopeful that will go ahead?

Senator Denis O’Donovan

As I am not a member I thank the Chairman for allowing me attend. I thank him also for arranging this meeting, which I have sought through him for some months. It is appropriate that two or three times a year the representatives of the aquaculture and mariculture industries be brought before this committee under the brief of the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food.

Are we maximising the jobs in our mariculture and aquaculture industries and, if not, why not? I recall attending meetings in the mid-1990s in which certain targets were set by the Department to develop fish farming, particularly fin fish such as salmon, the mussel industry and other types of fish but those projected figures were never reached in terms of tonnage. The hope was that we would export 30,000 tonnes of farm salmon and a similar if not greater amount of mussels and other types of fish.

I am puzzled and somewhat depressed, as a Member of the Oireachtas, that problems remain with licensing. Will the representatives indicate where we can go from here in that regard? Will the representatives indicate also if we are being over-regulated vis-à-vis our European counterparts? That was an issue I raised here previously.

I am sure Mr. Flynn will deal with the question of the azaspiracids in shellfish and the various proposals in that regard. If the European Federation of Sea Anglers gets its way in reducing the levels it will be the death knell of the rope mussel industry and other similar industries here, which would be a pity because Bantry Bay was the mussel capital in terms of that aspect of fishing. I am sure it has not been surpassed in that regard.

I raise a question I raised here a year or more ago, namely, whether the industry, particularly the shellfish and salmon farming aspect of it, has maximised our uptake on the Axis 4 funding from Europe and, if not, why not? I confronted a Minister in the Department some time ago and informed him that we were somewhat lax in applying for it. I realise it must be co-funded by our Government but if funds from Europe, whether it is for farming or fishing, are not being drawn down within the limited period I would be very annoyed because drawing down such funding creates additional jobs and so on. Do the representatives believe there is a conflict between BIM and Údarás on the one hand, which are pushing ahead in terms of supporting fish farming, be it mariculture, aquaculture, finfish, shellfish or whatever, while, on the other hand, they are being shackled by other Departments be it in terms of licensing or whatever? It is like rural planning. The Department is well headed by the Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív, pressing for various programmes for rural regeneration, yet it is impossible to get planning permission for developments in some rural areas.

If there are logjams in the fish farming sector, where are they? What is provided for in the habitat's directive in this area has been addressed by other colleagues. Are the representatives concerned that revamping of the Central fisheries Board, which is to take place shortly, will impact on negatively on the progress of their organisations?

On the issue of pollution of inner harbours, that is surprising and annoying. In my area in Bantry, pollution control measures have been taken by putting in place a sewage treatment plant, work on which I hope is near completion. Areas of concern in this respect are Schull Harbour, Baltimore and other such harbour areas. Significant funds from other Departments have been put into these areas. Have the representatives an input or view on the issuing of foreshore licences? It may not directly affect them, but this issue has caused considerable frustration. I told Mr. Flynn earlier that we have a thriving mussel industry in Bantry. Funding of €6.5 million was announced for Bantry in 2001. A sewerage system was put in place in the early 1980s but a treatment plant was not put in place, even though funding for it was announced in 2001 under the 2001-06 programme. Because of a three year delay in issuing a foreshore licence, work on that treatment plant was held up, and that has caused considerable frustration.

I recently welcomed an initiative for which I have been pressing for some time, and this concept may be helpful to the representatives. A new interdepartmental agency has been set up under the direction of the Taoiseach, which provides for communication across Departments. It is being chaired by the Minister of State, Deputy Tony Killeen, whose ministerial remit is closest to that of the representatives' area of interest. The representatives' groups should have an input into such an agency. I hope it will not be merely a talking shop. I welcome the idea underpinning this agency. Departments, whether it be the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food or the Department with responsibility for the marine, have responsibility for coastal development, the islands, shorelines, whether in the Ring area of Waterford, west Cork, Connemara or Donegal. The proposal in respect of this agency has great merit and it is one that probably should have been introduced 20 years ago. It would have addressed issues of lack of co-operation where one Department announces funding for a sewage treatment plant and another other Department indicates it will not issue a foreshore licence. In the case of Bantry Bay and other coastal areas, there is a mixture of tourism, inshore fishing, fish farming and leisure activities. The relevant Departments should co-operate to maximise the benefits from such activities.

The incidence of azaspiracids in shellfish is one of the reasons I sought this meeting. I read carefully what Richie Flynn said and I am trying to digest some of the technical information. I realise that the incidence of azaspiracids in shellfish poses a health risk. To use mussels as an example, are the scientific tests carried out on mussels more severe in Ireland than those carried out on mussels in the rest of Europe? I still have a bee in my bonnet about the virtual closing of Bantry Bay Seafood Production in Gearies, Bantry because of an incident in America, which was never proven. I contend and have put it in writing that the Sea Fisheries Protection Agency over-reacted and, by doing so, did considerable damage. That happened at a stage when more than 100 people worked in the company during peak periods. The Sea Fisheries Protection Agency has a role to play but it should be a positive one in terms of job creation and working with the industry. If it is otherwise, I will be a bee in its bonnet for as long as I am in these Houses. I am not being derogatory towards it. It is a new agency and it has strong powers. It has told us that it is not answerable to the Minister, but I believe it is answerable to this committee. Unfortunately, on the last occasion I was at a meeting of this committee, I had to leave to deal with another matter in the Seanad. If that agency could act in a proactive, productive manner to support the creation of jobs, rather than have, say, 20 officers in Castletownbere or Dingle, and act in a deterrent fashion or as over-policing agency, it would have a positive role to play. If not, it will probably hear from me again.

I apologise for being so long-winded. I have been supporter of the concept of fish farming for almost 30 years. I am disappointed we have not moved forward in that respect. Following the Whiddy Island disaster in Bantry in 1979 many people who lost their jobs decided to set up a pilot scheme for fish farming, particularly mussels. I was involved in one small project. We naively had timber mussel rafts, and had followed the Norway model, but we did not realise that mussels grew much quicker in Ireland because of the conditions in our waters and so on. We learned by trial and error but, unfortunately, I never took a commercial interest in it. I might have been better off if I had done so, but sin scéal eile.

Perhaps Deputy Sheehan's proposal about use of sawdust on crayfish and lobster——

Deputy P. J. Sheehan

I cannot afford the legal advice.

Deputy Tom Sheahan

Senator O'Donovan still has all that money.

Senator Denis O’Donovan

Perhaps that would be a solution to the problem of azaspiracids. Mr. Richie Flynn and his colleagues are all welcome. I was very interested in what they had to say. I, like my colleague in the Seanad have to leave to attend the Seanad. We are dealing with a fledgling industry that should be stronger but it is bowed down by over-regulation, lack of licensing and perhaps a lack of understanding. There are no quota regimes in place in this industry. There is great potential for this industry to develop. We have heard the success stories of organisations of Mr. Seosamh O Laoi, Mr. Jan Feenstra and others. Such success can be replicated along our coastal areas.

I was late for the discussion on the impact of the demise of REPS. In the area that Deputy P. J. Sheehan represents or the Kerry area that I and Deputy Tom Sheahan represent, there is great potential for the development of this industry if a realistic approach is taken. However, if we do not grasp the nettle, the Chileans, Norwegians, Scottish and French will wipe our eye. They are doing it already. Certain Departments have not recognised the potential that exists in our coastal areas. They suffer from tunnel vision. One Department is looking down a tunnel, as it were, and not over its shoulder. I had an argument at a meeting of the Bantry Harbour Board some time ago about a matter, on which the Minister for Transport had a view and we agreed to differ. His Department and officials did not take into account that Bantry is a designated tourist hub in which there is shellfish farming, inshore fishing and that people live on Whiddy Island. The Department was driving forward in a particular direction without working with the people to try to create jobs and act in a common-sense way. Sin mo scéal. If I am not here for the response, I will be in touch with the representatives again.

Deputy Bobby Aylward

As I come from an inland county, I am not an expert on this industry, unlike my learned colleagues who live in coastal counties.

Senator Denis O’Donovan

The Deputy is a good man to eat mussels.

Deputy Bobby Aylward

I like mussels. I contribute in my own way to the future of the mussel trade. Most of the points I wanted to make have been made already. It is obvious from the presentation that was made that there are problems in the industry, including over-regulation and people do not understand the need for it. There is great potential for the development of this industry. We are currently in a recession and jobs are being lost. The rate of unemployment is high. If some of the regulatory provisions governing this industry were lifted, it would facilitate the potential for the creation of hundreds if not thousands of jobs. I am disappointed that the regulation in place is slowing up the operation of the industry. A speaker said that 1% of global aquaculture is based here. We are surrounded by the sea, a natural resource surrounds our shores. We are island in the western hemisphere. We could exploit the potential of seas if the proper support was provided. There exists the potential to develop this industry. It is regrettable that the powers that be are not listening to people in the industry and do not appear to recognise the potential of what could be realised in this industry. I support everything that has been said here today. It will impose stricter regulations on selling shellfish, and I want to ask about that.

Chairman

Does Deputy Kirk have shellfish in his area? He would have more than I would in my area.

Deputy Seamus Kirk

It is certainly of interest, I will come in later, Chairman.

Chairman

That is fine. I will now call on Mr. Flynn to contribute.

Mr. Ritchie Flynn

I thank the Chairman and all the Deputies and Senators who have shown a great degree of knowledge of the aquaculture sector. In the context of the overall economy, it is a small industry. As the representatives here know, coastal areas can benefit from the sea. The west coast is very important economically. I support what Deputy Aylward said about the potential for jobs there.

I will now go through the various individual points. What we said about the licensing situation does not need to be repeated. I wish to be clear that the problem lies at home, not in Brussels. Deputy Sheahan asked for my view on an bord snip nua and making efficiencies. Let me draw a quick picture for the committee. We have one State agency monitoring salmon farms and, while we welcome that monitoring for sea lice, another State agency is literally standing on boats looking over the first agency's shoulder to see what it is doing. What a waste of time and money. It is absolutely ludicrous that fishery board officers oversee the work of the Marine Institute at salmon farms. That is crazy.

Senator Denis O’Donovan

Are they qualified to do that?

Mr. Ritchie Flynn

We do not know. There is no reason whatsoever for them to be out there, other than to intimidate and make known their presence. It is a waste of time and valuable resources. What is going on here? I refer back to my earlier comments that agencies which contribute to the national economy, including jobs and exports, should be supported. Agencies that do not contribute to the local economy should be first for the chop. I would welcome a view from the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources who is supposed to be bringing out a new fishery boards Bill in August. In our view, fishery boards should go the way of the sheep-dipping committees because that is how useful they are now. There are very good people working in the fishery boards who are experts on the environment and fish stocks. They could be redeployed to do real work. However, under the current structure, people have been sitting on fishery boards for the past 20 years, drawing expenses and going to monthly meetings, but to discuss what. I do not know. The time for those sorts of structures is over. The river basin district committees that have been set up under the water framework directive need to be allowed to do their jobs. I fail to see what the argument is for the continuation of the fishery board structure as it currently stands. It is unacceptable to have well-paid, qualified people looking over the shoulders of other well-paid, qualified people to check if they are doing their jobs.

There is a programme going out over the summer on RTE called "Fresh from the sea", which is supported by BIM. Members of the committee who are lucky enough to be home by 7 p.m. or have recorded the programme, will have seen that it is promoting Irish seafood. It is an excellent production. Last week it featured a mussel farmer from the Beara peninsula, Mr. Ger Lynch, who is one of the best such farmers in the country. That man now has to go to Norway to earn his living. He is very up-front about it. He is an excellent producer but must earn his living in the shellfish industry in Norway because he cannot get a licence to produce shellfish in the Kenmare river. That is ridiculous. We should have prime-time programmes promoting the industry, and I congratulate BIM for doing it, but it highlights the situation we are in at present.

Are we over-regulated regarding our EU counterparts and the AZA issue in particular? With your indulgence, Chairman, I will not go into the technical aspects of the AZA issue. I provided a paper to the secretariat, which I hope has been circulated to everybody. I am sure it has. As regards AZA and the biotoxin issue, there is no doubt we are being more regulated than the rest of Europe on biotoxins. We must be more careful than the rest of Europe because we rely so much on exports. We must be absolutely certain that what we send out is safe and complies with all legislation. However, the rope mussel industry, as Senator O'Donovan rightly points out, is being hammered. These new proposals on AZA coming from the European Food Safety Agency, EFSA, will see the end of the rope mussel industry in Ireland, if they are brought in. I am happy to say, however, that between the SFPA, BIM, the Marine Institute and ourselves, there is agreement that EFSA has got it wrong at this stage. We are working hard on this matter at European level, with MEPs from all parties, the Irish permanent representation and others in Brussels to get this proposal overturned. If EFSA's proposals are introduced by the European Commission, it will be goodbye to the industry because it would halve production levels. Ireland is the only country in Europe that is monitoring for AZA on a weekly — sometimes a twice-weekly basis — but without a doubt it is hammering our industry more than the Dutch, Spanish or French.

As regards discharges, Ms Clíona Mhic Giolla Chuda raised the issue of foreshore licences. Members of the committee may not be aware that advertisements have been in the newspapers recently and on the Environmental Protection Agency's website. The EPA has obviously taken control of local authority discharges. Its recent report was welcome and proved what we have been saying for years about coastal towns and villages. The EPA now has to issue new licences for every single discharge, whether it is in Dungarvan, Ring, Carlingford or Bantry. Wherever there is a pipe going out to sea, the EPA must issue new licences. I think Friday, 17 July is the final date for submissions. Some of the pipes are just disgraceful; they are pumping out raw sewage where people want to fish for shellfish or fin fish. Those new licences are now up for discussion and there are literally hundreds of them around the coast that need to be examined.

We welcome the interdepartmental agency to which Senator O'Donovan referred, and have said so publicly. We welcome the Taoiseach bringing all these strands together. The Departments dealing with the marine area include the Department of Transport; the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government; the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources; the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food; and the Department of Enterprise and Employment. The State agencies involved include Enterprise Ireland; the fisheries boards; the Marine Institute; BIM; Údarás na Gaeltachta; and the SFPA.

When it comes to how this country deals with the marine sector, it is like a jellyfish. A jellyfish is an organism which is made up of thousands of other individual organisms. It has hundreds of strands trailing after it. Touch one of them and you will get stung. There is no communication between the individual strands. It is a dangerous animal floating around with no means of propulsion. Each individual strand has the ability to kill. That is the definition of how the marine sector is run in Ireland today. It needs to be a different animal, which is centrally controlled and regulated. The left hand must know what the right hand is doing. At present, the position is extremely dangerous. If we had not been invited to come before the committee today in order that we might inform members as to what is happening within the industry, how else would this communication happen? The danger of allowing various parts of the marine industry — not just ours but other traditional sectors such as seaweed harvesting, fishing or whatever — to disappear or be killed off simply because there is a complete lack of co-ordination is very real. We must re-examine the map of Ireland and try to see the potential offered by its over 3,000 km of coastline.

As the chairman of the Irish Shellfish Association, Mr. Flor Harrington, is so fond of saying, here we are on the western periphery of Europe getting millions of tonnes of free food for our animals, twice a day, every day, 365 days of the year. Why are we not making more out of that?

I will conclude at this point. If I have not replied in respect of any of the questions, perhaps the Chairman will inform me of that fact. We are not here to whinge or to outline our problems. It is our job to create employment and exports and we are very good at doing so. We will continue to do so if the Government does its job.

Mr. Jan Feenstra

In reply to Deputy Tom Sheahan's query, I must inform him that Kerry is one of the sites that are hampered by the difficulties relating to Natura 2000vis-à-vis grant aid receipts and the renewal of licences. However, we bought the equipment with a view to releasing smolts in that area in the spring of next year. The latter is dependent on everything else going well.

Deputy Seamus Kirk

Will our guests comment people applying for licences in respect of introducing new species? I am particularly interested in this matter because one of my constituents had been involved in such a project for some time. The capital and start-up costs relating to projects of this nature are huge. Within the aquaculture industry, what would be the potential for establishing facilities at which research and development work might be undertaken in respect of new species before someone commits to the quite massive capital investment required to progress projects?

Our guests are probably aware of the project to which I refer, so I will not go into detail on the matter. However, the enthusiasm, commitment and desire of the individual involved is immense. When one considers what is involved from a strategic point of view, it is obvious that for someone who has no previous experience — other than that accumulated through is or her own due diligence — the financial commitment required could be quite intimidating. In addition, becoming involved in such a project might not, from an investment point of view, be the right thing to do.

What sort of potential is there in respect of the aquaculture industry in general and of the introduction of new species in particular? What strategic changes should the Department, which has overall responsibility in this area, put into effect in order to make the sector more dynamic?

Deputy Tom Sheahan

Everyone who was involved with the factory which recently opened in west Cork and which is producing abalone deserves to be congratulated. Perhaps there might be opportunities to encourage such activity in other areas.

Deputy P. J. Sheehan

In 2004, as Mayor of Cork county, I opened the country's first abalone factory on Cape Clear Island.

Chairman

I received a telephone call from a man who is carrying out business in a town in my constituency. This individual is involved in a project at one end of the town — which is worth €6 million — and in a second at the other end and at one stage he was obliged to move three loads of rock from one site to the other. There is another man in the town who is on the dole, who wants to block any projects there and who thinks he is a businessman. He is never able to prove the latter point because he objects to any projects in the town. On the morning after the three loads of rock were transported, the individual who persists in objecting to everything saw to it that three different officials from the same body were present to carry out an inspection. When the officials could not find anything amiss, the objector called in two different officials from the Health and Safety Authority. If this represents the type of regulation that is occurring, I do not know how we will proceed. I am sure our guests are experiencing similar activity in respect of their industries and activities.

Mr. Ritchie Flynn

The Chairman has provided an extremely interesting example. The shellfish and salmon and trout farming industries have proposed that more monitoring should be carried out by those in the industry, who, after all, are on the shore 365 days of the year. This monitoring could be audited by scientific experts such as those employed by the Marine Institute. It would be a much more efficient use of money for us to monitor the quality of waters in our bays for shellfish or the level of sea lice in respect of salmon farming. We have submitted formal proposals in this regard to the relevant bodies. It would make much more sense to proceed in the way I have outlined. In addition, those involved in fish farming would gain much more from the information they would receive and could use such information in the day-to-day management of their facilities, etc. It would be extremely important, however, that any such monitoring would be audited by the relevant scientific experts.

I agree with Deputies Tom Sheahan and P. J. Sheehan in respect of Tower Aqua's abalone farm on the Beara peninsula. Pouring 20,000 sq. ft. of concrete onto the edge of a cliff on the westernmost edge of Ireland in order to grow abalone is a fantastic achievement. In the context of progress, this must be seen as one of the shining lights within the industry. We do not hear enough good news of this nature within the sector and Tower Aqua is to be congratulated on its achievement.

With regard to the business person to whom Deputy Kirk referred, it is a daunting task to set on the road of growing either new or existing species in this country. We were much better at this type of activity in the 1980s. At that time, the relevant agencies may not have had a huge level of resources available to them but they did employ people of talent, vision and drive who attempted to progress matters. I refer to those who worked at Taighde Mara Teo, Údarás na Gaeltachta's former research and development facility, and for the then IDA, who examined short-term research and development initiatives and who were based in Galway. These individuals carried out major research in respect of fish health. In addition, there were people who worked in the universities, for very little money, who were enthusiastic with regard to progressing matters.

The Celtic tiger killed all of this activity. Agencies were dropped because farming and manufacturing were no longer sexy. We have returned to a point where jobs and exports are the only game in town but the agencies which are supposed to provide support in this regard are no longer in existence. These agencies fell by the wayside in the 1990s. All those people who carried out the work to which I refer in the 1980s when the industry was developing are now gone. In addition, the fantastic impetus towards rural and regional development has also disappeared. We need to rediscover that impetus.

I am not referring to spending massive amounts of money. I am, rather, suggesting that BIM regional development officers and those involved in cross-Border initiatives — who have real drive and enthusiasm — should be given a signal from Government to the effect that they are on the right track and that they should continue to support people who want to farm barramundi in County Louth or abalone in west Cork. Why should such support not be available? What is wrong with the country that people cannot be encouraged to proceed with projects in which they wish to be involved? We should support those who wish to sell organic smoked salmon to markets in Japan, China or wherever. These people should be given not just money but also advice and support.

The most important signal the Government can send is that the blockages in the licensing system should be removed and that the operational programme, which should have been opened up two years ago, should now proceed. That signal must be sent to those working in the public sector who want to support our agency and to people in the private sector who want to invest their money in something productive. There is money available. Let us put it into something productive, not into more hotels, service industries or call centres but into producing something real that can be exported and earn money for the country. That is what aquaculture is about: real exports, real jobs and a real future for coastal communities.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Flynn. Is it agreed that we send a transcript of today's meeting to the Minister? Agreed. The Minister has indicated that he will attend the committee fairly soon. The date we suggested does not suit him, but that matter can be addressed.

Deputy Bobby Aylward

Will we have this item on the agenda when he attends?

Chairman

Yes. I again thank Deputy Aylward for chairing the meeting in my absence. I apologise for not being here. I had to attend to a matter in my constituency this morning. I thank Mr. Flynn and his colleagues for attending. They have attended previously and are more than welcome to attend at any time in the future if they wish.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.55 p.m. until noon on Wednesday, 22 July 2009.