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JOINT COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD debate -
Wednesday, 14 Oct 2009

Strategic Plan 2009-12: Discussion with Horse Sport Ireland.

On behalf of the joint committee I welcome our former colleague, Mr. Joe Walsh, chairman of Horse Sport Ireland, who has appeared before this committee on numerous occasions as Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. I also welcome Mr. Damian McDonald, chief executive officer, Ms Alison Corbally, director of breeding and programmes, and Mr. Mark Bolger, director of finance and operations at Horse Sport Ireland. I thank the delegation for the copy of its strategic plan for 2009 to 2012 which it forwarded prior to the summer recess to the joint committee for consideration. We are happy to welcome the delegation to today's meeting to discuss the plan.

Before calling on Mr. Walsh to make his presentation I draw the witnesses' attention the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, this same privilege does not apply to them. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I now invite Mr. Walsh to make his opening statement.

Mr. Joe Walsh

I thank the Chairman and members for the invitation to present to the committee today the strategic plan for 2009 to 2012 for Horse Sport Ireland. The Chairman has already introduced my colleagues, Mr. Damien McDonald, Ms Alison Corbally and Mr. Mark Bolger.

The sport horse industry is an important part of our economy, in particular in rural areas. A recent University College Dublin, UCD, report identified 110,000 sport horses in the country. Some 56,000 people participate in equestrian activities regularly. On the economic side, UCD found that the sector was worth more than €400 million per annum to the economy and provided approximately 16,000 full-time jobs. It also has a tourist orientation in that many people visit Ireland to take part in equestrian-based activities. It is regionally well distributed. Young people from five to six years and upwards participate in sport horse and equestrian activities. It is a good outdoor pursuit and it has been established that it is of therapeutic value for young people.

The concept of a single governing body for the sport or sector has been on the agenda for the last 15 years. In 2001 a group under the chairmanship of Liam Connellan, the former president of the RDS, produced a report recommending the establishment of such a body. For a variety of reasons, however, it was impossible to reach agreement between the different factions to get a streamlined organisation to represent the industry.

Mr. Michael Dowling, the former Secretary General of the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, produced a report in 2006 and the new body, Horse Sport Ireland, came into existence in 2007. A substantial amount of set up work was done in the meantime, with agreement being reached on various structures. Horse Sport Ireland then became the governing body for the sector in January 2008 and is recognised by the FEI, the international governing body, by the Irish Sports Council and the Olympic Council of Ireland. The Department transferred responsibility for maintaining the Irish horse register to Horse Sport Ireland in July 2008.

This brought the breeding, sport and leisure sides of the industry together, as envisaged in the Dowling report. Horse Sport Ireland operates the high performance programmes for the Olympic disciplines of showjumping, eventing and dressage, as well as FEI disciplines of carriage driving and endurance. We also work closely with Para Equestrian Ireland in the delivery of its high performance programme. Funding for high performance programmes comes from the Irish Sports Council and the relevant affiliate bodies, Show Jumping Ireland and Eventing Ireland.

Horse Sport Ireland has 18 affiliated bodies. Since Horse Sport Ireland was set up, Carriage Driving Ireland has wound up its operations and become a formal section of Horse Sport Ireland. In addition, The Federation of Irish Polo Clubs and Trek Ireland have recently joined as affiliates.

The organisation has opened offices in Naas. Eventing Ireland, the Irish Pony Society, the Association of Irish Riding Establishments, the Association of Irish Riding Clubs and the carriage driving section of HSI are based in our offices in Naas, while Show Jumping Ireland has its offices in the same building. Having most of the affiliate bodies under the same roof is conducive to working together and has made matters more convenient for our customers.

Education and training are a key focus of the new body and we are the lead organisation operating the equestrian Skillnet training programme under the guidance of a steering group consisting of nominees of the affiliate bodies. In January 2009, we were approved by the Further Education and Training Awards Council as a provider of FETAC programmes. Horse Sport Ireland's coaching programme is internationally recognised and has been purchased as a template by the International Governing Body, the FEI, the British Equestrian Federation and the Scottish Equestrian Federation.

Horse Sport Ireland is a 32 county body and is a limited company run by a board of directors made up of 19 members nominated by the various affiliate bodies. The chairman is nominated by the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism in consultation with the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. The funding amounts in total to €3.7 million to run the entire organisation. Some funding also comes from registrations and affiliate fees.

We published our strategic plan in May 2009 which sets out our plans from now until 2012. We picked 2012 because it is a seminal year in competitive sport because the Olympic Games are taking place in London. This plan has been circulated to members so I do not intend to go through it in detail. However, I wish to highlight a couple of issues which we are dealing with that are covered in the plan and some that are covered elsewhere.

On the breeding side, the Irish sport horse studbook topped the World Breeding Federation for sport horse rankings for event horses for each of the past 14 years. However, we cannot be complacent about this as the sport is changing and other countries are specifically developing their breeding programmes for the eventing market.

On the show jumping side our fortunes as a breeder of top-class international show jumpers have declined alarmingly. In 2009, of the top 200 show jumping horses in the world rankings only three were Irish bred. This is a dreadful decline. Members were familiar with the names of Irish bred-horses and their riders at arenas throughout the country and the world. Unfortunately that is no longer the case and we must deal with this problem. We have moved to install a new breeding programme to address this. If we are successful, it will still take at least a decade to see the benefits of the new programme so it is imperative that we move quickly if we are to regain lost ground.

The main elements of Horse Sport Ireland's new breeding programme are a clearly defined breeding goal. There are young people in every parish performing with horses. Many of them are leisure hobbies — almost two thirds of the horses in Ireland are for leisure activities — but we want to ensure we are at the highest level in the competitive end of the industry. A simplified classification system and increased transparency within the mare and stallion inspection regime form part of that goal, with enhanced breeder information and education so breeders have as much information as possible. The breeder will decide but we want him to make an informed decision with the most comprehensive information so this is a cornerstone of the new breeding policy, to empower breeders to make informed breeding decisions. Ultimately, sport horse breeding is an economic activity and breeders can get a return if animals are produced in accordance with market requirements.

Breeders find it difficult, however, to make a return on poor quality stock and we have a problem at present with over-production. There is a glut of horses at present and some of them are making little or nothing. We are concerned also about the huge number of horses currently abandoned in the country, which could pose huge challenges as the winter approaches. We met the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food this morning on this very issue and made clear our concerns and impressed on him our feelings about the difficulties with animal welfare.

On the breeding side, I would like to acknowledge the expertise, leadership and financial support of the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. The other key area to which we have been giving top priority is addressing the use of prohibited substances. As members know, there have been very high-profile cases. At the last Olympic Games in Hong Kong, a rider's horse tested positive for a prohibited substance. That is a difficulty. We took action immediately and established an expert group under the chairmanship of Dr. Gordon Holmes to advise on what measures, procedures and controls need to be put in place to ensure we never find ourselves in such a position again. Dr. Holmes's group reported earlier this year and we are now in the process of implementing its recommendations. We are determined to have a clean sport. We all know that in international competitive sport, and not only in equestrian sport, the good name of the country is tarnished when people are found with prohibited substances in their systems. We are determined to root that out.

We introduced a medication and substances log book for the team horses at senior international level for submission to the team veterinarian in advance of being selected for the European senior eventing and show jumping championships for 2009. This log book requirement will be extended and incorporated into our new rule book to apply from 1 January 2010. It should also be noted that this is an international problem and is not confined to Ireland. Anybody reading the international equestrian press will see that a number of very prominent equestrian countries have had difficulties with positive results in recent times.

The FEI recently followed the example of Ireland and published proposals to change its rules and procedures on medication and anti-doping for horses. The key aspects include the publication of two clear and definitive lists — one list of banned substances and one list of medication substances. Banned substances are prohibited for use in horses at all times while medication substances are allowed outside competition for welfare reasons but are not allowed while the horse is competing.

There will also be separate rules for dealing with riders who use banned substances and those whose horses are found to have traces of medication substances in their system. Under the new rules, riders who are found to have used banned substances will receive significantly heavier sanctions than in cases where traces of medication substances are found in the horse. These new rules will go before the FEI international assembly in Copenhagen in November.

Our high performance plan for 2009 to 2012 is currently being finalised and will be published shortly. Horse Sport Ireland has very ambitious plans for the Olympic Games in London in 2012. Given the tradition of the horse in Ireland, it is very surprising that we have no Olympic medals for competitive equestrian sport. We aim to put this right.

The London Olympics represent a once in a lifetime opportunity. The climatic conditions will suit our horses and there will be no significant travel burden on them. Geographically, we are ideally located to benefit from the spin-off from London. Ireland is well established internationally as the land of the horse. We have fabulous facilities. Many of those who will travel from the other hemisphere will be based here for transfer to London. We would be very foolish if we did not make the best possible use of that.

The key to succeeding in the Olympics will be the structure we put in place and the quality of the people we have to run it. We have put the very best professional people in place and allow them to make the hard calls that are needed to achieve success. We have made very good progress in the past year. For example, our show jumping team, under team manager Robert Splaine, competes in the Meydan Series, which was formerly the super league. This incorporates the best nations' cups in the world and only the top ten countries in the world are allowed to compete. This year the nations' cup in Dublin, which was extremely well run by the Royal Dublin Society, was selected as the venue for the final round of the series. When competing with the top ten countries in the world in any competitive activity, competition is fierce. We are doing very well but we want to do so on Irish-bred horses.

We won the nations' cup in Sweden, our first win in the series since 2004. Two of our riders, Billy Twomey from Carrigaline in Cork and Denis Lynch from Tipperary, won the grand prix at the legs in St. Gallen and Aachen, respectively. While Cameron Hanley from Mayo finished fourth in the European championships, missing out on a medal by a fraction of a penalty.

One of our pony riders, Kellie Allen from County Meath — the Chairman will be well aware of this — won the individual gold medal at the European pony show jumping championships riding a seven year old purebred Connemara pony — Ballyowen Maybell Molly. Kellie Allen and her team mates won the team silver medal. That is a tremendous achievement against considerable opposition. When competing on a world stage, to bring back gold and silver is a tremendous achievement and they deserve all our compliments.

At the recent world breeding federation for sport horses show jumping championships in Belgium, Captain David O'Brien from the Army equitation school rode Drumiller Lough, an Irish-bred sport horse, to win the silver medal. He was up against 282 starters in the six year old category. This represented the best result for the Irish sport horse studbook since this competition started 15 years ago. The Army equitation school has been a flagship for the Irish horse since it was set up in the 1920s. It has been an outstanding ambassador for Ireland and has competed in the most prestigious arenas worldwide. It flies the Irish flag and supports the development of the Irish horse. I hope sincerely that an bord snip will keep well away from the Army equitation school. It has been established that it costs only €1 million per year. It gives outstanding value for money and not only in arenas worldwide but in support of our €400 million industry countrywide. The Chairman and members are welcome to visit the Army equitation school in the Phoenix Park. It is a fairly well kept secret but it has outstanding facilities. Army personnel would be only too delighted to show the Chairman and members around.

Our riders are making great progress in eventing under the guidance of high performance manager, Ginny Elliot, who has four Olympic medals and who has put an excellent coaching system in place. The Irish team was placed at the renowned international events in Badminton and Barbury Castle and was very unfortunate to miss out on a team medal at this year's European championships.

We were very fortunate that in 2009, one of the best eventing competitions in the world took place in Tattersalls in County Meath where no fewer than eight Olympic medalists competed in an event that was accorded world cup qualifier status by the FEI. What really topped this off was that Patricia Ryan from Cork beat off all comers to win the competition on the Irish sport horse, Fernhill Clover Mist, bred by Matthew Maguire from Gorey, County Wexford. That was a tremendous achievement. If that was not enough, her husband, Michael Ryan from Tipperary, came second. That was in the context of the considerable international competition with eight Olympic medalists competing.

In pony eventing, Joseph O'Brien, a son of the renowned racehorse trainer Aidan O'Brien, won individual bronze at the European eventing championships in Belgium recently. All this shows the potential of this sport to win in international arenas on Irish bred horses.

The support we receive from the Irish Sports Council in this regard is crucial and I acknowledge this on the record. Not only does the Irish Sports Council provide financial support but it also provides professional guidance and support to HSI.

Our aim will be to qualify show jumping, eventing and dressage teams at the London games and to qualify an equestrian team at the Paralympic Games. The first opportunity to achieve qualification is at the world equestrian games which take place next year in Kentucky. If we are provided with sufficient funding and can keep the top professionals in place, we believe we can win Olympic medals in at least two of these disciplines. We can win medals and we are determined to put ourselves in the best possible position to do that. There is a lacuna in equestrian sport where we have such brand leadership worldwide, but still do not have an Olympic medal. While we create success, we do not do so without having regard to animal welfare issues and will be unstinting in our demand that all riders operate within and observe the rules. If they are successful, there must be no concern that anything untoward will be found with regard to medication or anything else.

Aside from high performance, which tends to attract a high profile, the Irish sport horse sector reaches out to many thousands of riders, from five years of age to 55 years of age, who compete week in and out and participate as a hobby or for pleasure. Organisations such as, for example, the Irish Pony Club, the Irish Pony Society, and the Association of Irish Riding Clubs do outstanding work in getting people involved in our sport and the Association of Irish Riding Establishments makes our sport more accessible to all.

I would like to put on record the tremendous and outstanding work done by volunteers. The majority of people involved in equestrian sport are volunteers who give of their time. Those who travel at weekends may have noticed people, parents and others with their horse boxes going to meetings. These are unpaid, but spend all day at these meetings in a voluntary capacity. They deserve our support and appreciation.

Ireland is synonymous with the horse throughout the world. We have an indigenous industry which provides income, employment and pleasure for tens of thousands of people throughout every townland in the country and many more who follow the success of our horses and riders. If we provide strong leadership and Government support, we can drive this sector forward to achieve its undoubted potential.

I thank Mr. Walsh for his presentation and for his invitation to visit the Army equestrian school in the Phoenix Park. That is something we should consider. I am pleased to note the progress made by Horse Sport Ireland over the past 18 months. It is clear that good order is being brought to the sector and great progress being made. As Mr. Walsh said, one of the highlights for me was the success of Ms Kellie Allen from Kells, County Meath in winning a gold medal and helping her team win a silver medal at the European Pony Championships. That was a great boost for north Meath. Another great name in the industry was Eddie Macken, who was a neighbour of mine for years. Unfortunately he has moved to another country, but he still comes back and helps the Irish team often.

Mr. Joe Walsh

He still comes back and is an example to all at 60 years of age.

He brought great pleasure to us in north Meath and in Ireland for many years. There is no doubt that Ireland is known around the world for its horses. I am looking forward to hearing the Horse Sport Ireland representative expand on the plans for the future development of the industry. I compliment Mr. Walsh and his colleagues on the great work they are doing.

I thank Mr. Joe Walsh for his presentation and welcome his colleagues, Mr. Damian McDonald, Ms Alison Corbally and Mr. Mark Bolger. I will make some brief observations before coming to my questions. I noted the former Minister, now chairman of HSI, referred to a meeting he attended in Agriculture House this morning on the issue of animal welfare. This issue will attract more attention in the future.

I had the experience recently of being on the road early in the morning some 24 hours after the Cahirmee horse fair in Buttevant and came across some horses in a distressed state on the road. Subsequent inquiries confirmed these horses had been abandoned. This is an issue that is likely to increase in frequency and we need a solution. I would like to hear what the chairman of Horse Sport Ireland has to say on the issue and what the Minister had to say at the meeting this morning on it. Mr. Walsh mentioned there were 110,000 sport horses in the country, but with the economic downturn abandoned horses will be an increasing problem. What solutions are being advanced in this regard?

It was interesting to hear from the presentation of the ambition of Horse Sport Ireland. Mr. Walsh referred to our Olympic record to date and our ambitions in respect of the Olympics of 2012 in London. Pardon me for mixing my metaphors, but I would like to mention the elephant in the room. The issue of success involves breeding and a critical component of breeding for an Irish sport horse is the Irish draught horse. This is the elephant in the room. To have talked about a strategic plan for the industry without once mentioning the Irish draught horse is extraordinary, because it is a key component. I regret that the Irish draught horse sector is, to an extent, a family at war with itself, but that is an issue for another day. However, I find it extraordinary that the presentation referred to breeding but did not once mention the Irish draught horse.

Horse Sport Ireland controls the studbook for the Irish draught horse and, therefore, has a critical role in this area. Why does Horse Sport Ireland feel it necessary to have control over the stud book, particularly in respect of compliance with EU directives, which Mr. Walsh would be aware of more than most? I mention directive 90/427 and Decision 96/78 in particular. I received information from the Department recently and learned that the control of the Irish Pony Society stud book is controlled by the Irish Pony Society Company Limited, the Connemara Pony Breeders Society Limited controls the Connemara pony studbook, the Irish Piebald and Skewbald Association Limited controls the Irish piebald and skewbald studbook, the Kerry Bog Pony Co-operative Society Limited controls the Kerry pony stud book and the Irish Cob Society controls the Irish cob studbook.

The control of the draught horse studbook by Horse Sport Ireland is an international embarrassment. Other European countries have draught horse studbooks. I have correspondence with me from people who have been adversely impacted by the current process. It seems there has been sheer bloody mindedness in respect of people's efforts to have their mares or stallions on the Irish draught studbook. This issue falls directly in the remit of Horse Sport Ireland. It is the elephant in the room. HSI representatives can talk about a strategic plan without any reference to this issue. This is doing damage to our reputation in international circles and I would like to hear a comment on it.

It is difficult to get information. Horse Sport Ireland is like a secret society. We cannot get minutes of meetings and freedom of information access does not apply. Because of the lack of transparency, there is widespread rumour and innuendo and it is hard to get to the bottom of the issues. For example, we are led to believe there was mayhem recently at a sub-committee, which is effectively the former Irish Horse Board. The same faces seem to turn up in different disguises and roles. Apparently, there was mayhem recently and people were asked to leave the meeting. The whole debacle needs to be sorted out as it is an international embarrassment. If we want to breed successful sport horses, we need the co-operation of the draught horse community. I appreciate the difficulties in that regard.

The aim of people interested in draught horses is to preserve the draught horse as a rare breed and as the only breed of horse exclusive to Ireland in origin. That is something we need to address. Perhaps at a later stage we might facilitate the people on the various sides of that debate and bring them before the committee.

They are coming in, actually.

It is the elephant in the room. It is extraordinary that one can talk about a breeding programme and a strategic plan and not refer to that.

On the issue of rare blood lines, I understand that some breeds are in danger of becoming extinct. They are registered elsewhere but people find it impossible, almost, to have their mares and stallions registered here because of the maze of committees and sub-committees. It would be criminally negligent if those blood lines are allowed to become extinct by virtue of that process, and this is something that is the responsibility of Horse Sport Ireland and needs to be addressed.

I have correspondence, as I am sure many members of the committee have, on these issues that need to be addressed. As I said, that is the elephant in the room in so far as I am concerned and I would like to hear Horse Sport Ireland's response.

I have a few other specific questions. I have used the Internet to try to get some information on the inward buyer programme. Part of the confusion might arise from the fact that it might have been the horse board website. Where the remits might overlap confuses people who perhaps have much more knowledge of this issue than I do. However, if one looks for the web page under the inward buyer programme one will find it under the heading "construction".

I understand the inward buyer programme was suspended in 2009. That to me is extremely regrettable, and perhaps Mr. Walsh might comment as I see he is shaking his head. Perhaps he can give the committee some information on it. I understand a budget of €60,000 was allocated for that in 2009. As it is not subject to the Freedom of Information Act and the information is not published, we are operating largely on hearsay. If there was greater transparency it would be much better. I do not know why the freedom of information facility does not apply because a great deal of public money is going to Horse Sport Ireland. We should be able to get all this information in the public domain, but because it is not available I have to ask these questions. If I am ill informed, I am sure Mr. Walsh will correct me, but these are issues which, as a public representative, I believe to be of concern to the public. Perhaps he might clarify the position or shed some light on it.

It has been indicated to me that there was a budget of €60,000 for the inward buyer programme. For those not familiar with it, this is a way of showcasing the best of Irish sport or draught horses to international buyers by having a fund to bring them in and take them to the sales, etc. If it did occur, perhaps Mr. Walsh can tell members more about it. If not, why did it not happen? The figure might not have been €60,000, but in any event perhaps Mr. Walsh can clarify what happened.

Given the vacuum created by the lack of information, I believe we were not represented at key international trade stands such as the Horse of the Year Show and Bloemfontein where we should showcase our best products and meet people with an interest in acquiring good bloodlines for draught or sport horses. Perhaps Mr. Walsh might comment on whether that is correct or incorrect. He has referred to the fact that for 14 years in a row Ireland has been the number one eventing nation, but is that as a result of a charted plan people have bought into or something that occurred randomly? What has been the programme, plan, investment, or consultation with partners in the sector that has assured we have achieved this, or has it happened almost despite the efforts of Horse Sport Ireland? For example, is there an event horse studbook that is a testimony to our success in the area or is it something that has happened almost by accident? As Mr. Walsh said, there is no room for complacency, so what is the plan for maintaining that position in the future?

In his presentation Mr. Walsh made the point: "The main elements of Horse Sport Ireland's new breeding programme are a clearly defined breeding goal ... a simplified classification system and increased transparency within the mare and stallion inspection regime". Who has the authority to conduct inspections of Irish draught horses? Lest I be accused of laying a trap, perhaps Mr. Walsh might address the following. In Horse Sport Ireland's application to the Department for approval to maintain a studbook for Irish draught horses, it is stated in appendix 1 under the heading, "Procedures for Inspecting Mares and Geldings in the Irish Draught Horse Studbook" that: the Irish Draught Horse Society carries out inspections for classified mares and geldings in the registered Irish draught section of the Irish draught studbook. In the context of that being an approved document with the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, which enabled Horse Sport Ireland to hold a stud book, is the organisation compliant with its own regulations regarding the operation of the studbook?

There are a number of other issues, but those are a few opening remarks and questions which the chairman might address. I have others, but I shall yield, at this stage.

There are a good many questions there. Would Mr. Walsh like to reply now or shall I take a few more questions?

Mr. Joe Walsh

Perhaps the Chairman might bring in a couple more.

I welcome Mr. Joe Walsh and officials of Horse Sport Ireland and thank them for the presentation. We all know how important the horse business has been for Ireland over many years. My colleague has gone through many of the problems facing the future of the horse trade in this country. Before coming to the committee meeting I was speaking on the phone to a constituent about the big sales at Goresbridge which are held there a couple of times a year. Horses were actually being given away there yesterday. Auctioneers were finding it difficult to get bids of up to €200 for horses. We all know there is oversupply in the system and I am glad to hear that Horse Sport Ireland is trying to do something about it.

It all comes back to breeding. We should take the example of the Irish racing fraternity and its success throughout the world with the thoroughbreds on the flat and in jumping. The same must be done for show jumping and eventing as well. That is the way to go and it is all about breeding. When I was a young lad, the Irish draught horse was a famous horse. Given its size and the cross-breeding that was used in the past to get good show jumpers, I believe, we must return to these methods through a system of subsidy or additional grant aid to get more stallions back into the picture again. That is the way forward.

I admire Mr. Walsh's ambition for the 2012 London Olympics and believe that should be our aim. To win a medal there would be an achievement and prove we are being successful over the next few years.

I would like clarified what I discerned to be a somewhat contradictory position in what Mr. Walsh was saying at the beginning. He referred to the problems in the system with breeding and that Horse Sport Ireland wanted to set up a new breeding programme to address this. Then he dealt with all the successes achieved this year and last. Were the successful horses Irish bred or was it a case of Irish riders on horses bred in other countries?

I do not want to sound downbeat but we have an abattoir in my neighbouring parish of Thomastown, County Kilkenny, and I believe the waiting list is anything from three to four months because of the rate that horses are being slaughtered. There is a problem with the future of horses. I know Mr. Walsh has referred to leisure, but that is part of the sport and attracts money already available for horses. It involves the livelihood of farmers and people involved in the horse trade. It is a pity to see the decline. I suppose during the Celtic tiger years people got into horses who would not normally be involved, and children are now riding ponies, hunting, etc. With the economic downturn the situation has changed and there is an over-supply of horses. I would like to see the future of breeds, like the Connemara pony, which have proved themselves over the years being given all the support needed to bring them forward.

I wish Mr. Walsh the very best in his endeavours to get us back up there. We all have ambition in this regard. We are known worldwide as a great country for producing horses from our green grass. That is where we need to be, and we need to get all the plaudits we can from that. I wish the board of Horse Sport Ireland the very best in developing that.

When I was notified that Horse Sport Ireland was coming to the committee, I did some research. I too found it to be a kind of secret society, even clandestine, and it was impossible to get any information on this body. Mr. Walsh said in his presentation that Horse Sport Ireland gets Government funding of €3.7 million and he referred to fees from registration and passports. What is its total income per annum? How many staff does it have? How many meetings did it hold as a body in 2008 and 2009? What is the chairman's salary and what were his expenses for 2008 and 2009? Are all the staff based in Naas, which is my understanding?

I do not know whether Horse Sport Ireland can answer with regard to salaries. I will ask the clerk of the committee to ascertain whether such questions should be answered. There are two more speakers. I call Senator Carty.

I welcome the chairman, Mr. Walsh, and his staff. I thank him for his presentation, which covered quite an amount of ground. To follow up on what Deputies Creed and Aylward have said, I too have received many representations from the Irish Draught Horse Society with regard to complaints about its stud book. There are quite a number of breeders in my county, some of the finest in the country, and we have some very good mares in the county. I would be grateful if Mr. Walsh dealt with that aspect in his reply.

I wish the board well for the 2012 Olympics. I am delighted to hear from the presentation that it will go all out to ensure medals come to this country, and I wish it well in that regard.

I welcome the chairman, Mr. Walsh, and his colleagues. It was an interesting presentation. Our exchange of views has been not just interesting but very informative and it requires much more detailed consideration. I read Mr. Walsh's submission and the various items of documentation with interest. On a lighter note and to bring a degree of calm to proceedings, I was interested in his comment about the return of Eddie Macken and how great it was that a man of mature years returned in such a successful fashion. However, we have our own Eddie Macken here in Mr. Walsh's former colleague, Deputy P. J. Sheehan. It is the same in all walks of life.

On the substance of the discussion, Mr. Walsh outlined his views on where the sport should go in the future. Horse Sport Ireland has set lofty ambitions for the London Olympics. It was only when Mr. Walsh said it, that it struck me we had never won an Olympic medal in showjumping. That is hard to credit when one thinks of the outstanding showjumpers we have had and that we have won world championships and European medals with riders such as Eddie Macken, James Kernan and Tommy Wade. It is unfortunate none of those riders was recognised with an Olympic medal and, I hope, that deficit will be addressed in London.

With regard to Mr. Walsh's comments on showjumping, while I would not claim a huge level of expertise from a breeding perspective, he might outline more clearly how we will try to address the deficit on the showjumping side. With Ireland doing so well on the eventing side, from a breeding perspective what has gone wrong with the Irish showjumping horse, which has fallen from the premier league? From watching showjumping on television stations such as Eurosport, I can see that the more successful showjumpers are Dutch-bred, German-bred, American-bred and so on. Did they pursue a breeding policy that we ignored and can we catch up?

It would be foolish of me not to support the comments of Deputies Creed and Aylward. I received a significant number of representations and a degree of correspondence and telephone calls from people whose lifetime in the Irish Draught Horse Society marks them out as being very genuine and sincere, with a huge commitment to their business, generally not as an economic concern but as a way of life. They are deeply concerned and upset about the issue concerning the Irish draught horse.

The document containing the strategic plan states clearly that the agency maintains the Irish horse register, which contains the Irish sport horse stud book and the Irish draught horse stud book. That seems to be the core of the debate and of the problem — Deputy Creed rightly called it the elephant in the room. Not being an expert and not wishing to be judge and jury, I am advised there was a High Court case in April 2008 which should have directed the Department and Horse Sport Ireland to move in a certain direction, but that does not seem to have happened. Will Mr. Walsh advise us of the outcome of that High Court case and what exactly it meant? What did it demand to be done and why has that not been done? Obviously, if it had been responded to, we would not have this difficulty.

Deputy Creed listed the various horse organisations which have charge of their own stud book yet that does not seem to apply to the Irish draught horse studbook. The Irish draught horse is known not just in Ireland and Europe but across the world. It is regrettable that there seems to be this division. In the short time available to him, can Mr. Walsh explain why there is such a division, what was the court case about, who took the court case, against whom was it taken and whether the outcome of that case is being ignored? I am told that both at court level and European level, great concern is being expressed about this stud book. There seems to be a general view that the Irish draught horse stud book should be the charge and responsibility of the Irish Draught Horse Society but that is not the case, which seems mysterious.

I concede that my knowledge is passing and I am not an expert on the matter. I have simply read the relevant documentation, taken telephone calls and tried to respond to representations. It is a hugely regrettable matter in the broader context of the Irish sport horse. We are among the world's best and we have plans to become almost the world's best. It is a success story involving thousands of people and employing thousands, as well as generating goodwill for Ireland at home and abroad. It is disappointing that we have, as Deputy Creed said, the elephant in the room, but we cannot ignore it. We can have glossy reports and substantive speeches, such as the one we heard from Mr. Walsh, most of which I welcomed, but we must address this issue.

The Chairman, Deputy Johnny Brady, said that all of the other groups will be invited before us and that we would have some capacity within the committee to try to address the issue. However, from what I hear, right is on one side of the debate but Mr. Walsh's grouping seems to believe it is on the other side. Mr. Walsh needs to clarify the matter. It is important that we face up to the issue. We can look forward to London 2012 but we want to approach it from the perspective of a united breeding industry.

To move to safer waters, I am happy with what Mr. Walsh said about trying to ensure that this country will benefit not just by winning medals at the Olympic Games but by becoming a major centre for other teams in advance of the Olympics. We have outstanding facilities right across the country. I refer to the arena in Millstreet and other such places. We could have a special hearing on Millstreet, as it put us on the map in 1993 when we were not on the map for very much. I hope that it and other such places can be encouraged and supported to play their part in the preparation not just of the Irish teams but many teams across the world for London 2012.

The Olympic Games should be a major income generator for this country in the broader equestrian field. We need to put a plan in place in conjunction with the Departments of Arts, Sport and Tourism and Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. I presume Horse Sport Ireland is working on that now to ensure that as many teams as possible are based in Ireland, not just weeks but months in advance, and that we will make the facilities available so that we can earn not just income but goodwill.

The situation has gone beyond disquietude to a huge number of people whose heart and soul and lives were devoted to the Irish draught horse, its breeding, protection and advancement being hurt, angry and disappointed and feeling excluded. To quote a Senator from another era, these are no little people. We have to listen, respect and respond to their genuine worries and concerns. We should try to resolve the issues around the table rather than in the courts.

The list of speakers offering is growing. Three members wish to ask questions. Does Mr. Walsh want to reply now or take all the questions first?

Mr. Joe Walsh

I will leave it to the Chairman. If he wishes, he can allow the other three speakers to ask their questions.

Much of the subsequent contributions might be informed by the responses and if Mr. Walsh replies now that might avoid repetition. I suggest we take the replies now.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Joe Walsh

I thank the Chairman and members who have already asked questions. We will try to respond to them as comprehensively as possible. The officials will go into some detail on the issues.

Deputy Creed inquired about animal welfare. We had a meeting this morning with the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and his officials. The officials will meet us again in the next few days to draw up a plan to deal with the emerging situation of emaciated, abandoned horses. Court cases are ongoing in cases where people were not feeding their horses properly. Like many things the issue falls between two stools. When somebody is found guilty of mistreating animals under the cruelty to animals legislation the Garda is first called out. The Garda is not in a position to do much about the situation. Following that, the voluntary animal welfare bodies are called out and the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. Local authorities have a role to play also. The Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food has no direct legal responsibility, as it has jurisdiction over farmed animals and horses come under the remit of sport. Nonetheless, if there is a problem, it must be addressed. Officials of the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, the sporting bodies, local authorities and district veterinary offices around the country are taking this urgent matter in hand to deal with it.

It is a real pity that there are problems in regard to the Irish draught horse. Horse Sport Ireland, while not directly involved in breed societies, tried its utmost to bring both sides together earlier this year. We tried to find a formula that would bring about reconciliation. To make a long story short, it was not possible to do that. We do not have any legal powers to force the groups to merge under the umbrella of one organisation, which is the way we would like it to be.

Will Mr. Walsh elaborate on what he means when he refers to "both sides"?

Mr. Joe Walsh

Yes, I will. Senator Bradford raised the matter and his contribution was constructive but he suggested that HSI was taking one side. That is untrue. I will go into more detail on the problem. There is a difficulty here — the late Brendan Behan said the first item on most agendas in this country is the split. That is a pity. Members will be aware that we had it in Cork in hurling all year. It was not easy to get that matter resolved. It is usually due to a personality-based difficulty. At any rate, we should return to the equestrian industry.

I will ask our financial controller to give details on our inward buyer programmes and a number of other issues. On the 14-year performance in eventing, we have suitable horses for eventing and we have done extremely well in that respect. One does not do well at that level, with that consistency, without doing something right. Several years ago we had a good cross-breeding programme between the traditional Irish draught horse and the thoroughbred. That was ideally suited because one got the bone, stamina and temperament of the Irish draught crossed with the thoroughbred. That was a winning formula. At that time, not alone did the Irish team ride Irish-bred horses at the RDS but so too did the English, Swiss and Italian teams. The Country Boy and Ryan's Son were among Irish-bred horses. Things change.

The type of arena now tends to be indoors, which is very different and is far more technical. One has to adapt one's breeding policies. Senator Bradford said the Dutch, Germans and Scandinavian countries have made great progress. One can ask what they are doing. They are breeding for purpose and they are adapting to the situation. Deputy Aylward said we recognise the shortcomings in our breeding as far as showjumping is concerned but we did well in a number of areas, as outlined in pages 5 and 6 of the presentation. We did well but, regrettably, we did well on horses that were not Irish bred. I indicated that Kellie Allen was on a Connemara pony. We had only three Irish-bred horses in the top 200 in the world. We do not wish that to be the case. We want success and to have winners for Irish riders on Irish-bred horses.

Several years ago steeplechasing took place from Mallow to Buttevant and wherever else, but things have changed. The formula that was successful 40 to 60 years ago when the late Dr. Vincent O'Brien was winning on Cottage Rake, Hatton's Grace, Early Mist, Quare Times and Royal Tan he had to shift his focus to Northern Dancer line horses, which he did. That resulted in a winning formula as recently as last weekend in the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe. We have to do the very same thing, without taking any sides or being emotional about the matter. If the objective is to get a double-clear round in an arena then one has to breed for purpose. There is not any other way.

There is a deficit which we are addressing. It will take some time but the sooner one starts, the sooner one will get a result. I invite our breeding manager and other officials to go into detail in response to questions. Deputy Sheehan was particularly interested in my salary. I am pleased to tell him what it is; it is zero, nil, nothing whatsoever. I will now ask Mr. Damian McDonald, our chief executive officer——

Will Mr. Walsh indicate what his expenses were for the period?

Mr. Joe Walsh

I will address that.

Please allow Mr. Walsh and his colleagues to answer the questions.

Mr. Joe Walsh

As the financial controller will show, my expenses are not anywhere near as high as those of the Deputy. I work in the public interest in a voluntary capacity.

Mr. Damian McDonald

I will deal with the issues in the order in which they were raised. The chairman briefly alluded to the welfare of the animals. A short-term problem has arisen in this regard owing to over-supply. Anecdotal evidence from around the country suggests there are a large number of horses. Two key policy areas need to be addressed. First, facilities must be in place to dispose of horses correctly. This issue is being examined by the Department. A number of abattoirs are in place and more are due to open. Second, the issue of traceability of horses needs to be considered. We raised this issue with the Minister this morning. Every bullock, sheep and pig can be traced. While I am aware that the circumstances differ slightly in that livestock are food producing animals, a similar level of traceability is not available for horses. This matter must be addressed to ensure accountability. We must know who owns each horse in the country at any point in time. If people have horses roaming or are not looking after them properly, we must be able to lay our hands on the person who is responsible, namely, the owner.

Matters surrounding the Irish draught horse have been described as the elephant in the room and it is clear Deputies have received many representations on the issue. I will give a brief summary of the current position from the perspective of Horse Sport Ireland. Representatives of both draught groupings are present. I will use plain language and if the words I use to describe the situation are offensive to some people, I apologise in advance. I understand representatives of the relevant organisations will appear before the joint committee at a later date and will be able to offer their opinions and views at that meeting.

As regards the court case, I understand it related to the control of an organisation known as the Irish Draught Horse Society Limited. It is a matter of public record that the High Court issued an order which installed a group of people as the directors of the society. Much has occurred since the court case. The name of the Irish Draught Horse Society Limited has been changed to Black Drum Limited. A co-operative society, the Irish Draught Horse Co-operative Society Limited, has also been established.

Is the society run by the same people?

Mr. Damian McDonald

I assume that is the case. The Irish Draught Horse Breeders Association has been established along with a seperate company called the Irish Draught Breeders Association Limited. Mass meetings have been held and there is general consternation in the draught horse community since these developments. Mediation attempts were made when Michael Berkery, the former general secretary of the IFA, was brought into the process but they did not work. I could spend considerable time discussing the detail of the case and regardless of what I said, some people would argue that it was not accurate. The facts I have outlined are, however, indisputable.

I will not discuss in detail who set up which company and who is in charge of which company as it would be dangerous to do so here. There are two versions of events but what is clear and indisputable is that there is a major divide among draught breeders. Both groups represent a hard core of breeders who feel very strongly about the issue. Both organisations will set out how many members they have and so forth when they come before the joint committee. They have made claims in this regard but there is no doubt there are two groupings.

As an observer of these events, like everyone else, Horse Sport Ireland read about the court case. There was no question about who was given control of what was then the Irish Draught Horse Society under the judgment. Our only involvement in the matter arose when, during 2008, two advertisements were placed by two separate groupings to carry out inspections of Irish draught mares for inclusion in the Irish draught horse stud book. The clear inference was that the outcome of these inspections would be reflected in the stud book. Horse Sport Ireland is the custodian of the Irish draught horse stud book, which was originally operated by Bord na gCapall. It was operated by the Department of Agriculture when Bord na gCapall closed down and, subsequently, by the Irish Horse Board.

Mr. Damian McDonald

I do not believe that it is the case. The Department determines who has the licence to maintain the stud book and has allocated it to Horse Sport Ireland, as it previously allocated it to Bord na gCapall. It later assumed responsibility for the stud book itself before allocating it to the Irish Horse Board and then Horse Sport Ireland. I do not believe anything illegal has occurred in that regard.

Both organisations advertised for inspections and the inference was that these inspections would be reflected in the Irish draught horse stud book. As its custodian, Horse Sport Ireland's main interest was to protect the integrity of the book, regardless of other matters. We had a choice to make as the organisation with responsibility for the stud book. We could either allow both sets of inspections to proceed, announce that one set of inspections was valid and deem the other to be invalid or carry out the 2008 inspections ourselves to uphold the integrity of the stud book. We will make a decision in this matter on an annual basis.

To have allowed both sets of inspections to proceed would have created a bizarre situation in which breeders could have availed of both inspection regimes, possibly with different results. Both the groupings in question are competing for the hearts and minds of draught horse breeders, while presiding over inspections, the raison d’être of which was to measure quality. Under these inspections, each organisation would have decided that some mares were not acceptable for inclusion in the stud book. Given the environment at the time — with two organisations competing for the hearts and minds of breeders — it was difficult to have confidence that allowing two sets of inspections to proceed would ensure the integrity of the stud book. It would have been nonsense to proceed along those lines.

On the option of approving one set of inspections as opposed to the other, it was clear that regardless of which organisation the High Court decided was in charge of the Irish Draught Horse Society limited company, breeders were divided and some would not have participated in one or other set of inspections, depending on which set of inspections Horse Sport Ireland approved. For this reason, we decided we would carry out the 2008 inspections which we proceeded to do.

One side in the dispute carried out inspections and expressed considerable public dismay — a major public row occurred on the issue — that its inspections were not recognised and reflected in the stud book. I had a long meeting with Deputy Enda Kenny on the issue, at which he outlined the distress experienced by draught breeders who had attended these inspections in the belief that the results would be reflected in the stud book, only to find that this was not the case. We all accepted that the breeders in question were in a very difficult position.

Horse Sport Ireland met both sides to the dispute. While I do not seek credit, I spent many hours over many nights dealing with this issue. These meetings culminated on the night of 28 January when both sides to the dispute, one in Naas with Mr. Walsh, the Horse Sport Ireland chairman, Mr. Bolger and another representative of the organisation present, and the other in Fermoy with Ms Corbally, myself and an observer from the Department present, tried to arrive at a resolution in which one body would represent Irish draught breeders. The general consensus is that it would be better for draught horse breeders and the future of the industry if we had one body representing breeders. No one disputes that and we attempted and failed to achieve this outcome after lengthy efforts, with the Department acting as an observer. Since then, our approach has been to meet both groupings in question on request. I have met them to take on board the views of both sides, as has Ms Corbally on several occasions. She will outline the issues in more detail.

Everybody accepts that policy interventions are needed on Irish draught horses. Deputy Creed and others raised the issues of rare blood lines, the operation of the stud book rules to protect the breed and so forth. There are strong policy views on the direction in which the stud book should move in terms of how much non-draught blood should be allowed and other matters. This is standard policy debate and it is good and healthy.

Horse Sport Ireland could not wait around for the issue to be resolved and established the draught horse task force to recommend to the breeding sub-board the policy direction for Irish draught horses in line with the commitment given in the strategic plan. Ms Corbally will discuss that issue in detail.

For the record, the breeding sub-board is the old Irish Horse Board which does not represent the breeding societies.

Mr. Damian McDonald

I will explain that. This organisation was set up by the Dowling report, which was produced by Mr. Michael Dowling. It took a long time to put together and was agreed by all parties. In that report, which is what I was presented with as chief executive when we started, the chairman said "Set this up". He suggested a breeding sub-board, which was agreed, and which consists of the 13 directors of the Irish Horse Board Co-Operative Society Limited. It has 17,000 shareholders, many of whom are draught breeders. There are 13 such people on the sub-board and there are nominees from the Northern Ireland Horse Board, the Connemara Pony Breeders Society and the Irish Pony Society. That has happened. We now have 16 people, 13 from the Irish Horse Board Co-Operative Society Limited and three others, on the breeding sub-board.

A seat was not given at that time to the Irish Draught Horse Society by Mr. Michael Dowling. It was not our decision; it was made long before we came on the scene. One problem, which I urge the Deputies to keep an open mind on, is that there were horse board elections which were free and fair last year. Three seats were available for election. The perception was that the three seats were won by people who were on one side of this dispute. I, the chairman or Ms Corbally cannot change it. It is the perception which exists amongst breeders which may have led to a view that HSI is being led by one side rather than the other. I assure the committee, on the record, that is not the case.

As late as the last meeting of the sub-board, when a request for funding came from one of the organisations, the breeding sub-board chairman, Mr. Jim Beecher, a former civil servant in the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, asked anybody who was a member of either organisation to leave and they did so. It was not a debacle. There was no mayhem, rather, there was good order and practice. In that scenario, where one organisation was looking for funding and there was a dispute, it was good practice to ask people to leave. They have left. That will be our policy if any sensitive issues such as this arise, particularly when one organisation is looking for funding over another. It would be a signal by our organisation, if we supported one financially, that we were siding with one over the other. That is not the case and will not be the case. It is good practice to do that.

HSI was set up under this a democratically elected sub-board. The elections were free and fair. We operate with the board which is presented to us. All we can do, as the chief executive, chairman and breeding director, is try and ensure the organisation is run fairly and according to best principles. I can assure the committee this has been done.

Is there a system failure while this is going on?

Other members wish to speak. I remind members the meeting must conclude by 2.15 p.m. at the latest.

I have a supplementary question.

There are four people who wish to speak after the delegation's response.

Mr. Damian McDonald

I will hand over to Ms Corbally on the draught horse issue, which we should deal with as it seems to be a major issue and has taken up a significant amount of HSI's time since we started up. We are not a party to this dispute, were not involved in it and were not party to the court case. We did not go to court. A lot of breeders' money has been spent on court cases, legal fees, rows and wranglings. HSI has not damaged or undermined the reputation of the Irish draught horse breed anywhere. What has undermined it is an unseemly squabble which has been publicised everywhere and anywhere. We did not cause it. We tried to solve it and we can solve it.

I wish the Chairman's committee the best of luck when it has both sides in here. If the committee comes to the conclusion that we should do business with one side over the other or change our policy in that regard, let us know and we will consider it. I know where the inference is coming from; it is coming from people who are trying to blame us for this situation. What can we do? We have a massive dispute going on. There is no doubt the breeders are divided. We are taking a view right down the middle. We asked people who were members of both societies to step outside the door of the sub-board when the key decision was being made. It is fine to say it is the elephant in the room. It is mentioned in our policy document. How could we write policy at the time we were doing our strategic plan, when the row was taking place? We could not do it.

We decided to set up a task force and try and come up with a logical policy for the Irish draught horse. We were not worried about the humans but, rather, the horses because the matter needed attention. We can argue all day about the role the Irish draught horse has to play in the breeding of showjumpers in the future. People argue about whether the Irish draught horse is a breed or a type, but it has a role to play. It is a very important traditional breed for Ireland. Preservation of the bloodlines and so on is absolutely vital.

However, while this argument is going on, what is happening to the horse? How many Deputies have been approached with a policy or asked if they would like to develop a policy for Irish horses? Unfortunately, we did not create this dispute and we are trying to operate within it. It is not of our making. It is in everyone's interest that, when the two bodies concerned come before the committee, someone comes up with a formula so we can have a united body. We would welcome that. It would be fantastic if we could move forward.

If there was one body——

I stopped Deputy Aylward.

——would HSI voluntarily relinquish the studbook?

I stopped Deputy Aylward.

Mr. Damian McDonald

The Irish draught horse studbook has been run by a body designated by the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food since its inception. It began with Bord na gCapall, then the Department, the Irish Horse Board and then came back to HSI. I ask Deputies where would the Irish draught horse studbook have been while this row was going on in the Irish Draught Horse Society and it was standing on the steps of the High Court? It would have been stuck in the middle of the argument and would have been politicised. At some point in the future, if we had a united draught horse society which all the breeders had confidence in, we would want to work with it and would consider giving it a significant role in the studbook. However, it would be a dereliction of responsibility to the draught horse to hand over a studbook to a totally divided society, as it was, or to one organisation rather than the other when there is no unanimity.

If we have unanimity, the breeders come together and we have one organisation all breeders can join — they will have differences and debates — we will involve them heavily in the studbook. It is ultimately a matter for the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food to decide who gets the licence. Where would we be if it had run the studbook? There would be mayhem.

I would be more worried about the horses than all the squabbling that is going on.

Mr. Damian McDonald

I do not want to turn this into a political issue. I met Deputy Kenny and had a brief conversation with Deputy Creed about it and offered him the opportunity, which applies to any other Deputy, to come to our offices and go through all the documentation and letters pertaining to this issue in detail. This is primarily a personality-driven dispute. The actual differences in policy between the two organisations are not huge. We might not have given it much time today and it might be referred to as the elephant in the room, but it has taken up far too much of our time. Ms Corbally is a professional breeder who has a lot to offer and I ask her to give her comments. Most of our time is taken up with trying to sort out this wrangle. I will hand over to Ms Corbally to discuss the draught horse breed. I apologise to the Chairman. It is difficult to listen to some of the comments but this is the first chance we have had to reply.

I thank Mr. McDonald. His contribution was very interesting.

Ms Alison Corbally

With regard to the Irish draught horse breed, on page 8 of our strategic plan, part 1.1.8 states our policy is to develop a sustainable breeding policy for the Irish draught horse breed. Since that, we have established a task force which is due to report in the beginning of November. Its terms of reference were to develop a breeding policy and objective for the Irish draught horse, to propose a suitable classification system for the Irish draught horse and to propose initiatives to improve the quality of the Irish draught horse. They are three very clear terms of reference. It is represented by breeders of Irish draught horses. We did not take their allegiance to various groupings into account. We looked for people with knowledge who could contribute.

Did the delegation pick the people concerned or did the societies nominate them?

Ms Alison Corbally

The breeding sub-board of HSI selected the task force members.

Would it not have been advisable to ask each group to nominate a representative?

Through the Chair, Deputy. Other people are waiting to contribute. I ask Ms Corbally to continue. I will then bring in other members who have been waiting.

Ms Alison Corbally

When the task force was established, public advertisements were placed in the equestrian press seeking submissions, which were open to any individual breeder, group or other interested party to make. At that point two meetings took place which examined the submissions. Further to what Mr. McDonald said, there is largely agreement regarding the direction of the Irish draught horse. People are genuinely worried about the limited numbers and the inbreeding within the draught horse population, and those areas have been given detailed consideration.

The task force is due to report to the breeding sub-board on 28 October and we propose, subject to the breeding sub-board's agreement to its classification and findings, to release a report in early November. That is the broad issue in terms of the Irish draught horse.

Mr. Damian McDonald referred to the stud book but the Irish draught horse studbook was at no time maintained by any body other than Bord na gCapall, the Irish horse board, and now the HSI.

A question was asked about the breeding of showjumpers and another question was asked about the link between the Irish draught horse and its influence on showjumping, which I shall take together. It has been the case in the past that the Irish draught bloodlines were extremely influential in the breeding of showjumpers. Horses such as Clover Hill and King of Diamonds would be well renowned as breeding showjumpers. Both of those horses had a significant amount of thoroughbred blood. Showjumping as an event has changed dramatically. There are a number of reasons for the demise of the Irish horse with regard to showjumping. First, our best mares have been sold out of the country for the past 15 to 20 years. The Dutch and the Germans are leading the way in the production and breeding of showjumping horses. One can still see Irish bloodlines that date back to the third and fourth generation appearing within the Dutch and German bloodlines. The difference is that the Dutch and the Germans have bred specifically for purpose, namely, for showjumping. They have identified the traits required to produce showjumping horses capable of competing.

Showjumping has changed dramatically. When the Irish horse was in its heyday, there were natural obstacles, namely, banks and ditches similar to those that currently exist only in the Hickstead Derby and the Falsterbo Derby. They would have fences of not enormous proportions and they certainly would not come up in very close proximity to each other. In contrast, the high level European championships, world championships and Olympic showjumping competitions of today have very technical courses. The fences are 160 cm high and up to 180 cm wide and they come up in quick succession. Negotiating these courses requires a horse to have two traits, one of scope, namely, to have the ability to jump these big fences again and again and, second, to have an adjustability in stride. This detail is a little technical but it shows how far the sport has moved on. A horse must have a big canter stride but yet one that can be contained. The aim of the showjumping course builder is to ensure that it tests training and rideability. This relates to education as well as breeding.

The reason we have been left behind in this area is that we have continued to breed horses as we always did. We have continued to use the same crosses. We continue to view the Irish draught horse, the thoroughbred horse, to be the producer of everything. In producing a showjumper, we need to identify the traits for that sport. The requirement for eventing is different. In eventing we have won the World Breeding Federation for Sport Horses rankings for the last 14 years. We are the leading stud book. We are leading the rankings again this year. However, the sport of eventing has also changed dramatically. There is an increased emphasis on dressage. That immediately means that we need horses that can move well because dressage is a little like ballet, the horses need to be able to move, and if they are trained as well as being able to move, we will get good marks. It is as simple as that. Irish horses are not as renowned as flamboyant movers as are horses bred on the Continent.

The showjumping element within eventing has become much more difficult. The height of the fences, technicality of the courses and the speed required to complete the round have all been increased. Our horses need to change dramatically from the successful horses of 15 to 20 years ago. We need to ask ourselves what we are doing about that.

On the showjumping side, we have established a showjumping task force. It comprises leading international showjumpers and people who have been involved for years in producing and breeding successful horses. It is chaired by Colonel Ned Campion, who was previously the commanding officer in the Army equitation school. The task force's findings fell broadly into four categories, one being breeding. The main finding is a simple process. We need to identify our best mares. Our best mares are the mares that have either competed to a level or have bred horses that have competed to a level.

The second finding is that in regard to those better performance mares, we need to identify the best stallions. We need to be open to using the best stallions available for those mares, be they on the Continent or in Ireland. That was one of the findings on the breeding side in terms of producing showjumping horses and the need to fast-track the process. As Mr. McDonald mentioned earlier, it will take ten years from now to have a horse at eight or ten years of age competing at the highest level in showjumping. There is no quick fix solution. We have gone through the database and have found that we have at least 200 to 300 mares that meet that criteria of being termed "elite". As part of the trawl through the database, we are also examining the classification of mares in the future. We will probably have categories of mares that can be upgraded to elite in the future.

What about stallions?

Ms Alison Corbally

The same applies to stallions.

I will have to allow other members to contribute.

Ms Alison Corbally

On the stallion side, we have already implemented a system whereby the best stallions in the world can be accessed and can be easily brought into the stud book based on meeting certain criteria. The certain criteria are extremely high because the showjumping task force also identified that the issue of stallions posed a major problem for us. We were attracting inferior quality stallions from the Continent. If we are to make fast progress, we need to identify the best stallions for those good mares. That is broadly how we can improve in terms of showjumping from a breeding perspective. This is a brief outline. There is a large educational element to the production of horses.

From an educational point of view, 73% of our breeders register one foal a year. By and large they are small-based breeders with one or two mares. For them to be fully aware of the technicality of the tracks on the Continent and of all the bloodlines available in Ireland and abroad, requires a major educational element. In terms of what are doing about that, we are implementing a new database which, as part of the breeding programme, will be rolled out from January next year. It will be an Internet database. Breeders will be able to log onto it and look up their animal or any other animal. Initially, it will contain basic pedigree information but we will build from that to include performance data. It will be similar to the thoroughbreds data, where one has available at one's fingertips the facts and figures as opposed to hearsay and advertising in terms of stallions and progeny. We are trying to build a facts-based database that is open and transparent in terms of the information available.

Reference was made to inspections and that information will also be streamlined. Breeders will be encouraged and invited to attend the inspection process. Inspectors in the future will be trained. They will undergo a rigorous eight-day training course and animals will be linear scored, similar to cattle. In that way breeders will immediately know the strengths and weaknesses of their mares. We are trying in every way through education and the breeding programme to make clear what the market requires and to make it easy to provide the tools to empower breeders to make informed breeding decisions. That is a brief outline of what we are trying to do with regard to showjumping breeding.

I thank Ms Corbally.

Mr. Damian McDonald

I wish to briefly answer the other questions that were raised.

I ask Mr. McDonald to do it as briefly as possible because five other members are offering.

Mr. Damian McDonald

I wish to clarify a point. A phrase was used, which is alien to me, namely, that Horse Sport Ireland is some sort of secret society. Perhaps that came as part of the package with the Irish draught documentation sent to the committee. I want to make it very clear that we regard ourselves as a very open organisation. We have a website containing information, a newsletter and a text alert system. We issue briefing notes after board meetings.

One member raised a point which we need to consider. At the start of its inception, the Horse Sport Ireland board took a decision that the minutes would be retained for directors only. A briefing notice is issued after a meeting. We have people on the board representing different organisations. We ask them to keep the industry foremost in mind. The board took a decision that the minutes would be available for directors only. We have had a request for the minutes from one of the draught bodies and we will bring that to the attention of our board at its next meeting.

Perhaps we should further consider the matter because we would not like to create the impression that we are trying to operate in secret. We are conscious that we receive State money and, in general, we apply the principle of freedom of information to any request made to us. We have not denied appropriate information to anybody who made a request. I certainly have not received requests for information from any of the members present but if I had I would have been happy to respond immediately. I look forward to engaging with members to find out how that impression is being created because I am at a loss to understand it.

Deputy Creed referred to the inward buyer programme. The budget for this programme, which is €60,000 this year, is funded from our income. We regard it as an important aid to the sector, particularly in the present environment, but as it is demand led we have no way of calculating the cost of it at year end. Our budgets are under pressure because our registration income is substantially reduced this year. Mr. Bolger met representatives from Cavan and Goresbridge and it was modified slightly towards the end of the year. We have made it clear that we will engage with Cavan and Goresbridge in November but we have not yet decided on the shape or form of the inward buyer programme next year. It has been modified but no decision has been made to discontinue it in the future. While much will obviously depend on our future budget, we are committed to engaging with Goresbridge and Cavan to determine whether it is the appropriate aid or, given that the programme has been in place for a long time, if we can use the money better. We would be happy to supply further details to the committee if members so wish.

As regards international trade stands, the Irish Horse Board used to attend a significant number of international shows and trade exhibitions. It is extremely expensive to transport and staff a trade stand and we question the value for money we get at some shows. The Horse of the Year Show and the European championships at Fountainbleau were mentioned. We decided not to mount a stand at either of these events because of the costs involved. We will review our decision on the basis on our income and resources next year. We attended several shows this year and we intend to develop a clear policy on which shows we should attend in future. It is clear, however, that we did not get value for money from many of the shows we attended in the past. We have to ask ourselves the purpose of attending shows. Some shows draw huge numbers of the general public but they may not have a great interest in horses. Attendance has to be considered on a show-by-show basis in terms of the cost, the market and who else will be there.

The real show will take place in the arena.

Mr. Damian McDonald

Deputy Sheahan asked for the budgeted figures on Horse Sport Ireland's income. Our earned income is €1.885 million and, combined with State funding, our total budget is €5,599,435. Our current budgeted spend is €5,642,923, which implies a loss of approximately €43,000 in the absence of intervention. We will have to make that up between now and the end of the year because we do not want to run a deficit. If members want further details on these figures, we will be happy to oblige them. Our accounts are registered with the Companies Registration Office.

I am happy to report that all of Horse Sport Ireland's staff are now based in Naas, with the exception of one or two on part-time arrangements and who may also be based at home. Until 1 July, a number of our staff were based at the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food in Maynooth. These were formerly staff of the Irish Horse Board and they have since transferred to our offices in Naas. For the first time, all our staff are under the same roof, along with Showjumping Ireland, Eventing Ireland, the Irish Pony Society, the carriage driving and riding clubs and the riding establishments. This facilitates an excellent working arrangement. Our permanent, full-time staff complement is 26.5. Most of their labour time is consumed by the 9,000 to 10,000 passports we produce annually, which involve considerable manual input and checking for breeding. We are developing a new database which we hope will improve the processing work and we have been able to create synergies by bringing together the breeding and sporting sides. This month we were able to reassign several staff members from the sport and high performance side, which is quieter now that team shows have ceased, to the breeding side and the registration department. We receive in the region of 500 telephone calls per day. Many ordinary breeders who want to register a single foal but are unfamiliar with the system have to be walked through what they need to submit in terms of DNA tests and foal kits. It is time-consuming to produce a definite legal document which the passport is.

I welcome the delegates. Coming as I do from south Tipperary, I have a keen interest in the bloodstock industry. I have learned a great deal today. Boards on some organisations tend to be top heavy, while others rarely or never rotate members. Horse Sport Ireland receives a considerable proportion of its funding from the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. It is important to ensure traceability of horses.

A fierce problem has arisen in my areas with Travellers and their treatment of horses. Members of the public have expressed concern about harness racing along roads. Perhaps the horses are treated better then we think, however.

I am concerned that the draught horse stud book is not available to the people who believe they are entitled to it. I note Dr. Gordon Holmes was appointed chairperson of an investigation into issues pertaining to Hong Kong. What are his qualifications for that role? Given that he has also chaired other organisations, I wonder how one becomes qualified for such positions.

It would be very remiss of me not to extend a hearty welcome to Mr. Walsh, with whom I served in Dáil Éireann for more than 20 years. He always sought to help the Irish Draught Horse Society in any way he could. He promoted the breeding of quality Irish horses and was in no small way responsible for keeping the industry alive. I compliment Ms Alison Corbally and Mr. Damian McDonald on the vast amount of knowledge they have imparted to the committee.

It takes two to tango. United we will stand but divided we fall. It is a pity a division has arisen among the horse breeding associations because the breeding of Irish draught horses will suffer as a result. I understand Horse Sport Ireland won a court order allowing it to proceed with its aim of promoting the industry. I hope common sense will prevail in the not too distant future. As Minister for Agriculture, Mr. Walsh was responsible for improving the quality of Irish draught horses. There was a big export market for the product of Irish draught horses bred with Irish thoroughbred stallions. In fact, they drew the attention of the sheiks in Arabia and the Aga Khan. They all came here seven years ago to purchase the progeny bred in this country. I cannot see why that cannot continue. The Irish draught horse bred with thoroughbred stallions has produced quality second to none in the world. Horse Sport Ireland will continue on the same route. The information I have learned here this morning from Horse Sport Ireland has convinced me that we are on the right footing provided we unite, and that must be done for the future of the horse breeding association in Ireland.

I thank the chairman of Horse Sport Ireland for the work he did on this matter, and down through the years while he was a colleague in Dáil Éireann. It would be remiss of me if I forgot to congratulate my colleague, Senator Bradford, who comes from the heart of the horse breeding industry the products of which have won acclaim all over the world.

The limestone land is better.

Let Deputy Sheehan continue.

Deputy O'Keeffe was more involved in producing cattle than horses.

The next speaker is Deputy Creighton, who is welcome to today's meeting.

It is not often I have the honour of speaking at the Joint Committee on Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and I thank the Chairman for the courtesy in allowing me contribute to the debate here. I thank all of the contributors from Horse Sport Ireland, and particularly the chairman, for coming and for giving us such a comprehensive exposition of where the industry stands at present.

I am deeply interested in the show-jumping industry, with which I grew up. I am hugely concerned at the decline of the industry in recent years and, I suppose, at the lack of foresight 15 or 20 years ago in failing to identify from where the challenge would come and in failing to respond. However, we are where we are. We need to try to develop a strategy to turn that around, as Horse Sport Ireland stated, and to be in a position in ten years' time or so to begin to compete and to see the Irish bred horses rise up the rankings again. I am encouraged, particularly by what I heard from Ms Corbally on the different strategies being put in place. I am glad that Colonel Ned Campion's group is coming forward with practical and pragmatic solutions to the problems.

I am interested in this concept of breeding to purpose, which is essentially where we have missed out in recent times. The response to the current problem is certainly not to state that we will continue cross breeding Irish thoroughbreds and Irish draught horses, and carry on as we were. It is not a solution. The reality is that we now need to look at bringing other alternative foreign blood lines in to the Irish sport horse and trying to diversify and, as Horse Sport Ireland states, to respond to the different demands being made of showjumpers that did not exist 20 years, and even ten years, ago. When I was growing up in showjumping Kilbaha was winning the Hickstead Derby, and there was Glendalough and other horses, particularly those coming through the Army equitation school. I strongly stress my support for that approach which Horse Sport Ireland outlined. It is positive and I am encouraged to hear that such is the direction in which we are going.

We risk a kind of brain drain in terms of our better horses being exported, although that market is great. There has always been an export market for Irish horses of all sorts, not only showjumpers but thoroughbreds and eventers as well, but we must ensure that there is policy in place to retain some of that talent here, both for grading purposes and for competition purposes. One of the biggest challenges for riders is to find owners who can keep them in supply of good Irish-bred horses so that they can compete, not only on the grand prix circuit in Ireland but also internationally. That is a matter the Government needs to address and I would be interested in hearing the proposals Horse Sport Ireland may have for Government. Obviously, there are budgetary implications in that regard but it is a matter about which we need to think. I would be interested to hear Horse Sport Ireland's views on that.

In the thoroughbred industry there was a concerted effort at the top level to create a dynamic in Ireland which made us competitive. For example, the stallion tax, which has been a significant incentive for many decades, has helped develop an advanced type of industry in Ireland which makes us world class, and probably the leaders in the world, in the thoroughbred industry, and we also need to start adopting that approach to our sport horses, which have been sorely neglected.

There is a perception that showjumping is an elite sport. From my experience growing up——

We are under severe pressure of time. There are other members of the committee here now.

It is essential that we do not allow that perception to persist.

My final point relates to the Army equitation school. There is the National Stud for thoroughbreds to showcase and to promote Irish breeding. Could we look at doing something through the Army equitation school? Far from being minded to shut it down or to slash its budget, we should look at the school as an excellent opportunity to showcase, and maybe to develop, breeding at which we have not looked previously. It has been always the policy to promote Irish showjumpers through competition, but what about breeding? Is there also an opportunity to look at indigenous breeding through the Army equitation school and make it a hub for that approach?

I welcome everyone from Horse Sport Ireland. I stress the importance of the draught horse industry to my area of north Cork, which is limestone land on which grows the best bone formation and the best horses. I mention the Grand National winners in the 1950s, and Brian Marshall, Pat Taaffe and the other great riders of the time, and Early Mist, and the cottage horses of Fermoy and the surrounding area. National hunt is big in that area as well. Has Horse Sport Ireland broken European law on this issue? What is the up-to-date position regarding European law? European law now impacts on everything in an Irish context, as Horse Sport Ireland will be aware. Deputy Creed referred to it as the elephant in the room. The entire matter is in a real mess and this must be sorted out by someone. There is only one draught horse society registered in this country and the other is only an association.

How much EU money is Horse Sport Ireland getting? Is Horse Sport Ireland illegally collecting such money because it has not sorted out the mess of the draught horse, which would be the basis of the horse industry in Ireland? The draught horse is part of our heritage and we cannot get away from that. We have messed up many heritage issues. For example, in the bovine area the shorthorns, which was the Irish breed, are gone. Where are the fees going? What fees are Horse Sport Ireland collecting? How transparent is its balance sheet? How much can we find out about it because all of this comes into it?

The Army Equitation School was mentioned. The Army has reduced its involvement in the horse industry because of the economic difficulties.

I was rather taken aback today to hear about drugs in animal welfare. This is horrific and it breaks the law of the land. If we must remind people about it there is a weakness in the system. Horses are sensitive kind animals and they are always well protected. Cases where horses have been abused over the years have been sent to the District Court.

It looks to me as if the staff of Horse Sport Ireland is trying to hijack the important draught horse industry. Why is this industry not allowed to have its own registration? The thoroughbred has its own registration. The Connemara pony also has its own. Where is the issue here? There are decent people in my constituency and right across north Cork who gave of their time and who would have made much more money if they were involved in any other activity. I ask that they get fair play from Horse Sport Ireland. Grandiose ideas are no good in many ways. This economy is in a crisis. Many of those people are trying to make a living in this area. I appeal to the representatives to come off their high horse and put right the issue on the ground. The draught horse has been the basis of our horse industry for generations and we cannot get away from that. I accept that the Dutch have the best sport horse model in the world, but that is not the point. We are a long way from there.

You can ring all the bells you like.

We must be out of here by 2.15 p.m. If the Deputy wants that to happen I will certainly do so.

This is an important issue and many people will have to make their case a second time. I am making that point. There are no politics around this table today; we are all agreed on the issue. I want this sorted out and the organisation and the Government are obliged to do that. I make an appeal to take these people out of their misery.

I did not expect to be called in the last minute.

The animal welfare Bill is being held in abeyance; even on the list it has been changed from the spring session to the autumn session and there is reference to all animals, including domestic farm animals. It has been dropped and it is too early to anticipate when it will be published. This needs to be addressed when the representatives are talking to the Department.

The Army Equitation School is the only research facility there is and it should be treated as though it were an establishment similar to the research centres at Oak Park, Moorepark or Grange for the purpose of promoting Irish horse sports. There is no doubt the draught horse situation is unacceptable.

The mission statement of Horse Sport Ireland, which is the only governing body for the Irish horse industry, states: "Principle 1: Adopt a market led approach to breeding policy". However, it does not mention the need to preserve and maintain traditional Irish breeds and rare blood breeds. It is not in the mission statement and it is not really mentioned, except in the section to which Ms Corbally alluded about stud breeding. It should be a core principle. I am fascinated by what Ms Corbally said about breed technology and the way breeding must be tailored to suit the new eventing challenges such as show jumping. Notwithstanding this, however, without Connemara horses and Irish draught horses things would be very different. I speak as a member of a family that still has registered Irish sport horses and has bred Irish draught horses down the years, so I have some knowledge of this area.

There is no doubt that less is more. People will not like this. Many Irish draught horses and some that are in the system at the moment will have to be culled. It is like pruning a tree. Much of that will happen. There are horses and ponies all over the country that are not fit for purpose and should not have been produced, but it was a symptom of what was going on in society at the time. The signs are that the market has now totally collapsed.

There seems to be a legacy issue with regard to horses that were gelded in the 1990s. Is there any contingency plan if litigation is brought forward on this? What resources are needed to carry out inspections at the moment? What resources, from the budget of Horse Sport Ireland, are going towards that in terms of man-hours and money?

There is no point in our passing judgment here today; we must listen to both sides of the argument. We have heard the state of progress and that the organisation has basically come to a full stop. There has been a High Court decision which has been held in abeyance, and for now Horse Sport Ireland seems to be holding on to the stud book. What is the intention? If the matter can be resolved, will it comply with the court decision? The reason for the situation with the stud book is that it is being held up until such time as the matters are resolved. There is no doubt people on both sides, in both groupings, have the best interests of the Irish draught horse at heart, and for reasons best known to themselves they are not able to be in one organisation. If HSI feels it has run up a cul-de-sac and can go no further, is there not a role for some other conciliatory group, following on from the task force report, to come in, grab the issue by the scruff of the neck and sort it out?

In the Horse Sport Ireland document, to which I referred — although the witnesses did not reply to my comment — it is stated: "The Irish Draught Horse Society carries out inspections for classifying mares and geldings in the RID section of the Irish Draught Stud Book." Is HSI complying with its own stud regulations in so far as the High Court recognised one Irish draught horse society? In that context — although I regret the split — does it recognise the society for the purpose of inspections?

This is a difficult issue, Chairman. We should perhaps reserve the right to invite Horse Sport Ireland back in after we have met the other groups.

A critical issue was mentioned by Deputy Doyle with regard to those who feel aggrieved. The operation of the stud book is a legacy issue which goes back to the Chairman's time in the Department. I will not go into a history lesson, but it is a legacy issue. There are people who feel aggrieved and — let us call a spade a spade — those who feel they have lost financially as a consequence of how the stud book was managed over a period of years. Is the taxpayer exposed and has Horse Sport Ireland taken advice, legally and financially, on that matter? What is the potential exposure for the taxpayer? This issue could take up the work of the committee from now until Christmas and I have no doubt it has occupied the people opposite for quite a while. However, these are serious issues with potential liability and we need to consider taxpayers' money.

I thank the Deputy. We will certainly try to bring the representatives back before the committee. This was a very interesting meeting. I am sorry we had to cut many people short. If I had realised it would be so interesting I would have sought a longer slot but unfortunately I did not.

Mr. Damian McDonald

To be crystal clear, there is no question of our not being in compliance with any court order. There is no court order against or involving Horse Sport Ireland. Let us be clear about that.

While this dispute is going on in the background, as the body responsible for the sport horse sector, we have set up the task force. We had a presentation last week from the RDS about its rare bloodlines and policies and we are moving on to develop the draught breed. The task force will certainly meet or consult anybody. We look forward to coming back in after the witnesses have had an opportunity to meet the two groups. If the committee has a view it wishes to convey to us or feels we are not dealing with the matter in the correct way we will certainly bring that before our board. However, we are confident we are doing so at the moment. We appreciate the feedback. If there is anybody here who feels his or her good offices can be brought to bear to unite draught horse breeders I will be glad to talk to him or her and help in any way possible.

I have covered nearly everything so I will hand over to Ms Corbally. Deputy Creighton made a point about owners.

We will have to call it a day.

Mr. Damian McDonald

That is all right; we can deal with it later.

I will allow one brief reply.

Ms Alison Corbally

I will give a brief reply with regard to our own rules. They were amended in August of last year when an issue arose over two advertisements regarding mare inspections. After amending, the rules were forwarded, as always, to the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. They now show that HSI carries out the inspections. As Mr. McDonald said, that is on an annual basis and will not go on indefinitely; however, it is how things stand at the moment.

Deputy McGrath asked about the identification and traceability of horses. We are keen to see a mechanism whereby owners of horses can be identified. As the Deputy is probably aware, from 1 July this year horses are required to have an ID document and a microchip. However, there is currently no mechanism to trace who owns a horse or who is responsible for it. In conjunction with that, something along the lines of a national horse database is crucial for two reasons. The first is traceability with regard to welfare issues; but the second, more importantly, is disease prevention. In recent years there have been a couple of cases in which there could have been serious disease outbreaks. Both the thoroughbred industry and the Irish sport horse industry are valuable contributors to the Irish economy and if there was such an outbreak there is currently no mechanism to identify where horses are and who is responsible for them.

Mr. Joe Walsh

It would be a shame if I was not able to acknowledge the fantastic contribution made by Deputy Paddy Sheehan. The last time I was in here Deputy Sheehan was surfing around Mizen Head. He has made a great comeback and it has given me food for thought.

All other contributors hold their views sincerely, with Deputy Creighton in particular talking about adapting to the modern arena. We are about medal winners, success and achievements and we will achieve that. We need the support of the industry and the Government; we are on a minuscule budget relative to the thoroughbred industry, which received €61 million last year while we got €5 million. We are not complaining about that. We have 110,000 horses in the country, some of which are not fit for competition. That is a problem but we are moving in the right direction and the Irish equestrian industry will be on a par with the thoroughbred industry. If John Oxx and Michael Kinane and Sea the Stars were depending on people who were fighting and having problems, Sea the Stars would not be the highest rated horse in the world. It is no accident that such success happens regularly in thoroughbred race courses around the country. We will do the same; we will win medals for Ireland.

I thank Mr. Walsh and his colleagues for the presentation and for their answers to our questions. This was a fantastic meeting and I compliment Mr. Walsh on the enormous amount of time he is putting into the industry on a voluntary basis. It is a credit to him and his colleagues.

The joint committee adjourned at 2.25 p.m. until 11.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 28 October 2009.
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