Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine debate -
Tuesday, 29 May 2018

Different Approaches and New Opportunities in Irish Agriculture: University College Dublin

Chairman

The meeting is now resumed in public session. I remind members and witnesses to ensure that their mobile phones are completely turned off. The purpose of the meeting is to discuss different approaches and new opportunities in Irish agriculture. I apologise to the witnesses for keeping them waiting outside. I welcome Professor Alex Evans, Ms Triona McCormack, Professor Dolores O'Riordan and Professor Mark Keane from UCD and I thank them for attending. The meeting arises from a discussion we had in Brussels on our trip approximately a month ago and we saw an opportunity for the committee to assist the witnesses in articulating their views on opportunities. These opportunities relate to science and technology and ensuring sustainability in and support for agriculture; precision agriculture; how these may assist young farmers to attract more people, especially young people, into farming and agriculture as a career path; and initiatives and areas with regard to research and innovation that UCD believes to be important or would like to raise in respect of agriculture and the agrifood sector in general. That is a synopsis of the discussion that will take place here today.

Before we begin I wish to draw attention to the fact that witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against either a person outside the Houses, or an official either by name, or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I call Ms McCormack to make her opening statement.

Ms Triona McCormack

I thank the Chairman and the committee for the invitation to discuss the issues that have just been mentioned. Members have a copy of my statement and they are probably familiar with UCD, but it is worth noting that we are a leading international university, as well as being the largest university in Ireland, with a strong base in agriculture and food science. That is the perspective from which we come to address the committee

I will briefly outline the key challenges facing the agrifood sector and will highlight how UCD and its partners are seeking to address those challenges through research and education. There is an opportunity for Ireland and for Irish farming, in particular, because this sector is important for the economy. There is a great opportunity for us to lead in, and beyond, Europe, given key legislation is going through the European Parliament, the report entitled, The Future of Food and Farming: Challenges and Choices for Global Sustainability report, has recently been published and the multi-annual financial framework, MFF.

It is a key point in time and there is an opportunity for Irish agriculture to take a leadership role. We feel we should be there at that table.

Let me summarise the challenges. We see a set of independent challenges. They are all well rehearsed and probably very familiar to this committee. One is the challenge of the production system and how we increase production. At the same time, there is a challenge of nutrition. It is worth mentioning to the committee that one in three globally is malnourished. In other words, the nutrition content of their diet is not where it should be. There is also a sustainability challenge. We are all very familiar with that as we look at the effects of climate change. Last, and with a particular impact for Ireland in terms of the size and scale of the agrifood sector, there is an economic challenge. We need to balance all those challenges, their interdependencies and their relatedness. The production, nutrition, sustainability and economic challenges are critical to address and we need to balance them together. That is why we believe adopting a whole-systems response is the only way we can respond to the challenges. This is where policy can help. There are complementary policies that can drive innovation and investment in the changes needed for the sector. If we take advantage of this opportunity, the sector will have the opportunity to make the step change and Ireland will really be able to play a leadership role in agriculture internationally.

At UCD we are in the business of creating new knowledge and educating future business people and lawyers, but also farmers and those who work in the agrifood sector. We really feel this is a very exciting time for the sector. Never was there a time when the amount of new exciting knowledge being created has been so pervasive. It is up to us now to take advantage of this and ascertain how we can embed it in our systems and structures nationally.

It is an exciting time to move into the sector. We are, however, alive to the fact that it does not always feel that way for those involved, particularly those in the farming community. There are challenges beyond those we could resolve in that context. I refer to the challenges of access to infrastructure and to the community systems required to make living in an agri-based economy and society viable. All those are challenges and we recognise that. What we can do is bring practical examples to the table of innovative and exciting ways of approaching the challenges we face in respect of production, nutrition, and sustainability systems. In this regard, I will focus on and highlight opportunities in three areas. The first is an emerging area, the bio-economy. The second concerns the merging of two sectors in which Ireland has a leading position, the ICT and agrifood sectors, in the context of precision agriculture. The third is the future of food and nutrition.

I will deal with the bio-economy first. There is a very exciting opportunity for Ireland in the bio-economy. We have a rich resource base. The bio-economy is really about how we make better use of our raw materials and resources and how we optimise and maximise the value of those resources. We see opportunities in this regard and have developed new technologies for converting those resources into various products, such as bio-based plastics. This is not all about the production of food as it is also about the production of higher-value food additives and food ingredients. New technologies are coming on stream that enable that.

Let me give a very practical example of how this is happening on the ground. We have been very closely involved in and have championed the development of the bio-economy campus, located in Lisheen, County Tipperary. Many members of this committee are familiar with what is happening in Tipperary in that regard. The initiative brings together a number of industry partners. Glanbia is a primary partner but there are others also. They have been brought together with local government in Tipperary County Council and ourselves in the university with a view to bringing new technologies on-stream. The institutes of technology are playing a role in examining what future training capacity might be needed on the ground in the bio-economy campus. The aim is to set up a new bio-refining plant and a new pilot facility for the new technologies. Essentially, the objective is to consider how what were always considered to be waste products from the dairy sector can be repurposed and how we can create higher-value products from those - bio-based plastics in this instance. This is a great example of how all the actors can come together to create a very different future. The community in Lisheen was facing €50 million coming out of the local economy and the loss of jobs in the region. Now it faces a very different future, with quite a vibrant bio-economy campus that is probably leading in Ireland and which is in one of the European model demonstrator regions. Lisheen is now expecting €75 million to go into its economy and growth in jobs. Some 1,800 jobs are predicted by the industry partners involved, either directly or indirectly. That is a very real, tangible example of how new knowledge, training and education can be brought to bear to mobilise people around opportunities. What we can look to do now is extend the opportunity back into the production systems while asking what we should be doing with the raw material coming out. We must determine whether there are further opportunities that we can pursue and how we can get the conversation going within the community.

Another area I highlighted was that of ICT and precision agriculture. As I stated, these are two sectors in which Ireland excels. The use of big data is pervasive in every single sector, agriculture being no different. New satellite technologies and new data analytics tools can be brought to bear on the sector. An example of where UCD is working very actively on the ground in this regard is its work with Origin Enterprises in the cereal production systems. In this regard, we are considering increasing the yield from cereal growth - winter barley in this case. When increasing yield, one of the challenges is achieving a balance with sustainability. How does one do so without increasing the environmental impact? In this instance, we are bringing together the data technologies and new soil strategies and putting them into the hands of the growers in a format whereby information is very easy to access. The objective is to allow the growers to use them to increase their yield at the same time as decreasing the environmental impact of the production system. It demonstrates that nice balance between the economics, sustainability and production.

With regard to food and nutrition, this is an area in which we really excel. We have considerable capacity through the Institute of Food and Health. One of the programmes, Food for Health Ireland, involves many of the institutions coming together with the major actors in the dairy sector seeking to mine the dairy product to determine how we can extract higher value ingredients from that raw material or resource. It is a matter of changing and diversifying the product portfolio of the Irish dairy producers from one represented by a high-volume, low-margin commodity to one represented by a higher value product. It is also worth noting that having a resource base like UCD, with our international reputation, can do other things for the sector. I must highlight in particular the recent announcement on beef imports into China from Ireland. The conversations in this regard started long ago. The key food safety actors within the Institute for Food and Health have been engaged with the Chinese institutions, the Chinese Academy of Sciences and the relevant government departments for many years working their way up to the making of a decision that was an acceptable one for the Chinese to make. Our role in opening new markets and in using our international relationships to try to further advance the cause of, and case for, Irish agrifood is one that we can focus on.

Let me refer to the future for young farmers, as mentioned at the outset. There is concern that farming is not an attractive enough career for young people. We need to work together to really understand how we can make it a compelling career. If, however, one bears in mind what we have just talked about and the new technologies at play, one concludes that a future farmer will have to be a data analyst and production systems expert in addition to being a sustainability expert, business owner and entrepreneur. In this regard, there is a package that is very attractive, notwithstanding the comments made earlier about the infrastructural challenges. Along with our partners in the institutes of technology and Teagasc, we can start to really tell that story and ascertain whether we can change the perspective on farming as a career.

We are very optimistic about the future. We believe we are at a point of opportunity. Considerable change has taken place in the agrifood sector during the past few years. We believe there is a huge opportunity for us to take a leadership role. It is where we should be in Europe and we believe that can deliver back into Ireland. The example of the bio-economy I gave was mobilised by €22 million in funding coming back to us from Europe. We can see the way in which that engagement can deliver dividends. We are hopeful but we need to figure out how we can all work together within the system to achieve the kinds of opportunities I outlined and to deliver on them.

Chairman

I thank Ms McCormack for her presentation. Before I bring in the members, I have a question for her on foot of her reference in her presentation to young farmers. We had representatives of the European Court of Auditors before our committee two months ago. We all know the age profile of the farmer in Ireland is quite high, although it has improved a little in recent years. I understand that 1,000 farmers per day are leaving agriculture within Europe, which is a startling statistic. If that trend continues over a number of years, the agricultural industry will be in serious difficulty. We are no exception to that. As our economy improves, there will probably be more attractive propositions for a young man aged 21, 22 or 23 on leaving college. How do we address that? Ms McCormack has teed around that issue. Is it a perception issue, namely, that farming is not attractive or does it need to be sold in a different way?

Ms Triona McCormack

I might ask my colleague, Professor Alex Evans, to respond to that question. He is the head of our school of agriculture and food science and is dealing with a large population of students on a daily basis who may have an aspiration to have a career in the sector. He may be able to address exactly what their feelings are about this issue. It comes back to the point about creating a different story. This is exciting stuff. If one is at the cutting edge of data analytics, which is where a great number of our young students would see themselves and want to be with regard to tech start-ups, etc. There is no reason some of that cannot be translated into this environment and so doing could create a different environment. There are other elements that are limiting factors that we as a university cannot resolve in terms access to infrastructure and schools, etc. However, we can share where we see other disciplines coming into farming and where people may have an aspiration to have an entrepreneurial career. There is no reason that cannot be achieved in an agrifood context. We see many opportunities there. I will hand over to Professor Alex Evans who might also like to respond.

Professor Alex Evans

As we all know, the past eight or ten years have been very tough in Ireland but members also will be well aware that the agriculture and food industries have done very well during that time. I was talking to my colleagues last night and we were celebrating the last short while during which many very good people have entered the agricultural and food industries. We said this presents a challenge for us to try to keep up the momentum. While the Chairman pointed out that people are leaving agriculture, possibly by their thousands across Europe, many smart and ambitious young people have entered the agricultural industry in the last while. Perhaps that is a reflection of other parts of the economy rather than the agrifood sector. As a result, views on the agriculture and food sector have greatly changed in Ireland. Twenty years ago people were talking about it as being the sunset industry, where we would buy our food from elsewhere around the world, but now we cannot talk enough about fresh food and low food miles. If we can continue to build the good story that Ireland has with respect to its agriculture and production systems, that is part of it. The other part is that it will become a very knowledge-intensive industry. Education is an absolute requirement. UCD is only a part of the education system and we have many good people entering agriculture.

We often think about people just being farmers, the men and women at the front-end of food production, but a great number of people are involved in post-farm gate agricultural activities. We should not take our eyes off that. Employment for Irish people around the world in that area is growing. There is no simple fix. One could not say we need a new policy, new opportunity, new food product or a bio-based industry which would do it. It is the collection of all those parts.

Ensuring we have a viable rural community is a major challenge. It is not simply about merely having a good price for beef or, for example, ensuring farmers do not have flooding. It requires all the elements on which the members are focusing, which can be simply summarised as infrastructure. If it about roads, broadband, schools or the other services with which people are provided, if those are attractive and if there is a living to be made on the land, then I believe agriculture will do well in Ireland. It will not be easy but I believe we will always be engaged in agriculture. The past 50 years have showed us that increasingly fewer people are producing food for increasingly more people. I do not know how that will work if that trend continues or if Ireland can adopt a slightly different approach to trying to feed the world and producing massive volumes of commodity products by starting to produce high-quality products that people want for all sorts of different reasons. That is a long answer to a complicated question. It is complex.

Chairman

I thank Professor Evans for his very detailed answer. I will take questions from members and then come back to the witnesses. I call Senator Daly to be followed by Deputies Cahill and McConalogue.

Senator Paul Daly

Professor Evans in his reply hit on the area about which I was going to ask. I compliment him on his research work to date. What would he propose is the best procedure to filter that down to where it needs to be? While he is in consultation with Teagasc, what amount of his research, recommendations and proposals for the future are being incorporated into Teagasc training for the green certificate for young farmers? Moving on to the next stage, what is the best passage for the transfer of his knowledge and information to farmers who have attained a green certificate or for those farmers who have not done a green certificate and who would say they are beyond the education system but who are established farmers?

Many farmers I know would call these ideas the new fads and the mod cons. How would Professor Evans propose to convert those people who are very set in their ways, have been farming for 25, 30 or 45 years and who believe they know more about farming than anybody in UCD could tell them? I am making that point, not stating it as a fact.

Deputy Jackie Cahill

I thank Ms Triona McCormack for her presentation and Professor Evans for his contribution. I want to make one or two points about young farmers and attracting young people into the industry. The percentage of the consumers' take home pay that is spent on food has been consistently decreasing. As a modern society, that is an issue we must address. The percentage primary producers are getting of what is being charged by the major retailers is also rapidly decreasing. Our major retailers seem to have only one focus and that is to sell food as cheaply as possible. Our farmers are producing a top class product under stringent standards. At some stage those retailers will break the camel's back. They cannot continue in that direction. I am not criticising the work the witnesses are doing and it is not their remit to sort out the major retailers but there is a slide in that direction. We need only compare milk prices in the 1980s with those of today, as well as the percentage primary producers are getting and their margins. Dairy farmers have probably trebled or quadrupled the size of their operations but that has not done much for the bottom line. If we are to attract people into the industry, those factors must be addressed.

The research being done in UCD has a huge part to play in the future. I have been lucky enough to have had contact with Professor Kevin O'Connor on the Lisheen project and have seen his knowledge and depth of research there. Great credit is due to him and others for getting it going. They picked a grand site for it within five or six miles of my home base.

Chairman

The Deputy is very happy.

Deputy Jackie Cahill

They could not have picked a better site for it. We will not complain about that. It has massive potential. I hope the bio-refinery gets going as quickly as possible. However, there is a small mistrust of the companies involved. We have a product now that was waste, which was a cost for the industry. Now, instead of being a cost, it is going to be a benefit for the industry.

I was on the Irish Dairy Board, or Ornua as it is called now, for eight years and we knew the exact value of each product produced from the litre of milk. We knew what a pound of butter, a tonne of skim milk powder and a tonne of whole milk powder were worth all down the line. However, we do not know what this will add to the chain. I am not criticising the research. The witnesses give a global figure for the added value but how much is permutated whey worth to a company such as Glanbia and what worth will it put back into the bottom line for the primary producer? The potential is immense. I recall that 25 years ago one either fed whey to pigs or just got rid of it, but now it can add immensely to the bottom line.

The witness said that one in three of the world's population are malnourished. One of the major challenges for research is climate change. We all have to face the fact that climate change is happening and ensure that the restrictions it will impose on us will not hinder our production in the future. Consider the current situation with derogation and the impact on water quality of run-off and so forth. Half of our dairy farmers are farming under derogation. If we lost that derogation for any reason, be it water quality or whatever, our production would be greatly restricted. The research the witnesses are doing on ensuring that the nutrients we spread can be used by the soil, that we do not have run-off and that we can produce in a sustainable and green manner is hugely important. They are doing immense research on that. The low emission slurry spreading period has been extended by a month. I have practised that on my farm. If farmers get into the habit of practising it they will never go back to the other way because the value from the nutrients will more than repay the cost of spreading it. One can see with one's own eyes, without having the research, the value one gets out of the nutrients and the lack of hindering of grass growth.

We are the most sustainable dairy producers in the world and we are fifth with regard to beef. However, we cannot stand still and this research must continue. It is going to become a smart game so the research the witnesses do is invaluable to us. On the nutrients side, I have seen the research plant at Moorepark where new products are being designed to provide more nutrients and more added value to product. Given the scope and the wider range that has given our industry, there cannot be enough investment put into that side. That is what will keep our industry to the forefront. However, we need to get back to plain economics and the price and return for the primary producer. Unfortunately, with all the standards being imposed with regard to quality assurance and so forth, the primary producer is getting squeezed further. It is worst for the beef and tillage sectors. They are being squeezed out of existence. There was a headline about what dairy incomes were in 2017 - it will be a different story in 2018 given the spring we had - but the other sectors are under even more pressure. We cannot expect a constant stream of top quality product if there is not going to be a return for it.

I commend the research the witnesses are doing. It is invaluable and has put us at the forefront of world production.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

I welcome the witnesses and thank them for their presentation. In her opening statement Ms McCormack said it is an exciting time to be in the food and farming sector, although she was fully aware that it does not feel that way, and that we all need to work together to make farming a compelling choice. Will she expand further on that disconnect, where she sees the potential and considers it exciting yet she is very much aware that it does not feel that way for many practitioners?

This touches on the overall issue of how the production and agrifood sector, as opposed to the primary producer, has gone from strength to strength in recent years. It has been one of the big success stories of our economy. Exports have increased from approximately €7 billion six years ago to €12 billion today. It is a massive increase and it is continuing to go in that direction. However, the primary producers who are doing the farming have not felt that. They continue to feel more pressure and to become more squeezed. How do we get the benefits of innovation and technology to them and make that work at farm level? It is certainly working and making an impact at the enterprise, business and production levels, but the issue is how to make that work at farm level across the various sectors.

Dairying has been powering ahead in recent years and much has been happening. Although it is a difficult sector in terms of inputs, time and so forth for those involved, there is a profit margin in it even if it can be volatile. How can we make units in the beef, sheep and tillage sectors viable? By and large there tend to be smaller units in those sectors. I am interested in hearing the witnesses' perspective on farm size and how that feeds into the use of technology and more innovative practices.

With regard to climate change and our climate change goals, I realise the witnesses' speciality is research but we are now part of an international agreement where our production methods are not necessarily recognised as being as efficient as those in other member states. What are the witnesses' views, as researchers and innovators, on the practicality of the climate change targets in respect of leading to more effective and efficient agriculture in terms of carbon leakage and not being able to ensure we can make the most from new practices? Also, what are their views on anaerobic digestion and the potential for using it? It is far more developed in Northern Ireland. Do they see a bigger role for that? Can it be a more significant part of the agri-economy?

Chairman

Perhaps Ms McCormack will respond first. If your colleagues wish to make a contribution they are more than welcome to do so.

Ms Triona McCormack

I will take a few of the points and link them together. Senator Paul Daly made a point about translation through Teagasc and others, how we effect that and how we get the impact on the ground. I will ask Professor Mark Keane and Professor Alex Evans to respond in particular on the green certificate. That is linked to the question about people who have been in the farming sector for a long time, who feel they are doing exactly what they need to do and that they know what needs to be done. What will appeal is the evidence of the value created, in other words when they start seeing greater economic returns for their neighbours down the road where there is some adoption. We have to work that way. We have to create examples on the ground of how this works, how the new technology has impact and how simple it is to engage with.

That is a challenge. It is a challenge for researchers and industry that brings this to market. It must be accessible to people and usable on the ground in a farm situation. If that is the case, we will start to see adoption because nothing drives adoption as well as an economic imperative from a business person. Farmers have their own balance sheet every year and they will be looking at how to improve their situation. If they feel there are mechanisms that can improve their situation, I feel we will get a response. It is up to those partners, about whom I spoke earlier, working together to get those responses out on the ground in that translational mode. I will ask Professor Keane to comment, particularly in respect of the dairy questions about which a few questions were asked.

Professor Mark Keane

I am a professor of computer science in UCD. I have spent the past two years talking to agriculture researchers. I now know more about hoggets and grass than I thought could possibly be learned. We need to think in a very broad way. Ms McCormack mentioned the notion of a systemic view. I will not criticise people because they have their own businesses and are looking at the bottom line and what they get for what they sell, but we must think of the farmer as sitting within a much wider environment and system. Part of that system is the sustainability aspect so we are going to start paying money as fines for polluting the environment. Can we not have a governmental scheme that will feed back some of that as an income to farmers to get them to change behaviour, which would then reduce the amount of pollution going into the environment? That is one example of another system that we must take into account as well as the core production of food system.

The information technology system will become very important. Precision agriculture is based completely on the notion of data. At present, we have one model for data, namely, that Google and Facebook own it all, but we are seeing that this model is disappearing and that people will own their own data. If a company like a processor depends upon a whole community of farmers to produce a given product and depends on the data those farmers have, this will also become another source of income for those farmers. We must realise that we are on the point of a step change in how we do agriculture. If we get this right and think about it in a systematic way, we will see that there are other sources of income that are available and that this should improve the lot of farmers in the environment, but we need to think that way and it must be done in a regulatory way as well. Government must think about it because nobody else is going to do it. The processors are not going to do it because they will have their own agenda. We need someone in a God-like situation overseeing the system and organising that properly so that we move on to this new stage.

Chairman

Would Professor Evans like to comment?

Professor Alex Evans

I might add a word on the training. The green cert or equivalent is a vital part of people's learning. A basic understanding of how things work on the farm from the environment to all the other issues is an absolute requirement. I commend Teagasc on the work it does in this area. It has a great network of colleges throughout the country.

The other great learning tool at farm level is these discussion groups from which some get tremendous benefit while others are a bit more reluctant. The longer we stick at it, the more people will buy into it. That is a great tool. It is a great achievement for Ireland to have its farmers talking in groups. The discussion group is the opportunity for knowledge transfer between practitioners but also between greater experts and the practitioners in the discussion forum. That is where the newer ideas on research and findings are brought to the coalface.

As we go up the line to people who manage the farms or parts of industries and processes, we are looking at people with bachelors or masters degrees or higher. Maybe when we get to a higher level, we are looking at researchers in universities or companies who are clustering together and possibly drawing down large funds from the EU to generate the new knowledge. We get a lot of visitors to Ireland and I am sure the committee has met them. They are quite impressed with the diversity of education and knowledge opportunities we have that fill the span I described. It is critical that we keep up each and every one of them.

Agriculture will be better off if we take the knowledge we have and apply it, but in the fullness of time, that will not be enough. We need the new knowledge to produce new products and to take care of the new challenges. We need to keep pushing out this large continuum of education for people at all different levels. We all have a role in that.

Ms Triona McCormack

To pick up on the point of value flowing back to the producers, it is worth highlighting two things. The principle that we must see more value flow along that chain from producer to consumer is a fundamental principle within the circular bio-economy. The future of food and farming framework and legislation are important vehicles to see some of those changes at a European level which will then cascade into some of the member states. It is critically important that we all engage actively in that and in that dialogue that is happening to bring fairly practical policy solutions to some of this to enable this integration about which Professor Keane spoke between sustainability, the opportunities that are there, the environmental sustainability and the production sector and, critically, to enable that to be a sustainable business model for the primary producer. I said at the outset that it must be economically sustainable as well. The approach at which we are looking involves looking at the products that are coming out and asking how we cascade that back through the value chain and looking at different business models. Part of the data sets and the ownership of those sets can be part of that new business model. I might bring in Professor O'Riordan because this is an area that relates to value-added products in which she might have experience.

Professor Dolores O'Riordan

I specifically want to respond to the question about the return on investment. In respect of looking at permeation and trying to get various nutrients or bio-actives out of it, the question concerned the return on investment. A big change that I have seen working in innovation and developing dairy ingredients and added value is that the starting point for the research is sitting down with the research leaders from companies and commercial leaders of the companies. The very first exercise that is done is to estimate the return on investment. This is a big sea change in the research environment that I have seen over the past 15 years. That is exercise number one. If we are putting a certain amount of money into research, they want to see what the products, sales and margin will be. This has been very important in driving the food industry on.

Ms McCormack's statement mentioned Food for Health Ireland. We have made a submission for the third round of that. That has been an example of producers and researchers working together to give true commercial value to companies, so that has been a key change in having the mindset of researchers in giving true added value. It is going to the large producers and not necessarily back to the primary producers, but that has been a very positive change in the research landscape.

Chairman

Deputy McConalogue asked about the issue of anaerobic digesters.

Ms Triona McCormack

In respect of being in a fairly complex environment like UCD, it is a small enough complex environment but we have many different actors. This came up in a conversation I had with our energy researchers recently. Our production system was mentioned. Our methods of food production and our role may not be recognised in terms of our climate change targets. We are looking nationally at new models of energy management and, in that context, looking at CO2. One of the interesting debates and a real field of research for us in the next period will be the difference between methane emissions and CO2 emissions in terms of making an impact on climate change. I preface my remarks by saying that it is not my technical area but methane has a shorter half-life than CO2. It disappears in the environment more quickly, yet we do not have an adjustment for that.

In the context of national emission levels, we must consider what can be done in other sectors to balance our system so that we can continue with the kind of agrifood production that is valuable to our society and economy but that will involve bringing in other disciplines. Economic modellers are part of the answer here in order to find unique solutions for the Irish context. We need to look at our whole system, including energy, manufacturing and production to see if we can balance one against the other. That is a fairly high level answer to what was a detailed question. I am afraid that I cannot really answer the question on anaerobic digestion but we can come back to the committee on that because there are other experts in UCD who will be able to provide answers.

Chairman

That would be great. Senator Mac Lochlainn is next, followed by Deputy Martin Kenny and Senator Mulherin.

Senator Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

I thank the witnesses for their contributions. In the statement submitted to the committee, reference is made to climate change as follows:

Climate change impacts are real and are felt. In Ireland, we risk exceeding our emissions targets and being fined for doing so. Whatever we do from this moment on must address climate impacts.

Climate change is up there in terms of its importance but there are no solutions in the statement. I have asked questions of many witnesses who have come before this committee and do not expect anyone to provide a silver bullet, including the witnesses here today. However, there has been a 22% increase in dairy production in recent years for obvious reasons. The figures on average farm incomes recently released by Teagasc show that almost all of the income increases can be attributed to increases in profitability in the dairy sector but that is transient, as the witnesses know. Nonetheless, more and more people in the farming community are understandably, for profitability reasons, moving in that direction but dairy production has the greatest impact in the context of climate change because of methane emissions. We face a €455 million fine. The EU Commissioner for Agriculture and Rural Development, former Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Mr. Phil Hogan, has warned that we are facing huge fines down the line but I do not see any solutions.

I applaud the witnesses for the positivity of their contribution and appreciate that they are working in an area that is critically important. Innovation is critically important in all sectors of our society. All of the headings under which the witnesses spoke today are both important and praiseworthy. However, we face a number of issues that we must tackle. The farming model we have in this country is having a severe impact on our climate change targets and we need to talk about that. We need to figure out how to reduce the level of methane emissions. Is there some scientific way of getting our methane emissions down? This is essential in the context of the move towards increased dairy production, which, as Deputy Cahill pointed out, is a result of the cheap food policy of the EU. That policy is all about reducing the cost of food to the consumer, which, in turn, reduces the amount of money in the pockets of primary producers.

We have spoken a lot about dairy and tillage today but in Donegal, for example, the vast majority of farmers are involved in sheep and beef production up on the hills and on bad land. In that context, the statistics from the Council for the West were absolutely alarming but nobody wants to talk about them. We have seen a 42% reduction in the number of family farms in the west of Ireland in the last 20 years. Almost half of all family farms in the west of Ireland are gone because we are moving towards the intensification of farming.

I defer to Deputy Cahill's expertise as a practising farmer with decades of experience. He has argued that farmers now have to quadruple their farming in order to have the same amount of money in their pockets, which is shocking. We need experts like those here today to talk about that. We need to talk about the fact that the farming model we have in Ireland is driving up our greenhouse gas emissions. I could scream about this at times. We have the European Commission telling us that it will fine us hundreds of millions of euro because of our farming model but at the same time, the economic model presided over by the same Commission forces people in that direction. There is absolute hypocrisy at the heart of the EU's agriculture policy. The EU lectures us, arguably correctly, on our climate change targets while forcing farmers down a particular road because of its cheap food policy.

Are there academic solutions? The presentation from the witnesses was excellent. Reference was made to a multisectoral and cross-departmental approach within UCD. Are there solutions being developed at UCD to the challenges that are screaming at us in terms of agriculture and the model that we have on this island, going forward?

Deputy Martin Kenny

The witnesses are all very welcome. I thank them for their presentation. In the context of young people and attracting more of them into the agriculture sector, conversations like this help a lot.

A number of issues stand out. First, there is what we already do in the mainstream. Most farming here is dairy, bovine or sheep production. That is the mainstay of Irish agriculture; it is what farmers here are used to, good at and set up for. They are set up in terms of the machinery they need and it works for them. Diversification away from that would be difficult for most, particularly as farmers in general are risk averse. They do not want to do something they do not know in case it does not work and that is understandable. They are prepared to take a few bad years, a few good years, put the two together and accept that they are doing okay overall. However, as others have said, the continued intensification in recent years is leading to a situation whereby farmers are expected to get more from less. The acre of ground is expected to produce more. This means that more inputs are going into the land in order to get more out of it. In terms of the animals themselves, more inputs are also going into them to get them fatter faster and to move them along quicker in order to make more money. That is putting a strain on the system. Slurry, for example, is a huge problem in this context. In the west of Ireland, marginal land tends to be wet anyway. Grants were given to farmers to store slurry but now the land is not good enough to allow that slurry to be spread and the tanks are full. We run into this problem every spring and it will only get worse if we are going to have longer winters in future, which seems to be the pattern. More work needs to be done on this issue.

The cheap food policy was referred to previously. One solution might be to build a wall around Europe and make everyone pay a little more for their food. We could try to force it or control it but it is a market system which cannot be forced or controlled. Indeed, there are many reasons not to do that. However, if one looks at the plight of the primary producer, one finds many reasons to do it. This is a difficult issue but I know it is not an area of research for the witnesses here today.

While we have traditional farming in sectors known well to Irish farmers, other areas are emerging which are new and different. These are niche areas that could possibly be explored, developed and made more mainstream. These are the areas in which I am interested, as are those farming in the west of Ireland and on land that is not good enough for dairy production or more intensive farming. I am very interested in finding solutions for that part of the world. One area of particular interest is that relating to biorefinery. One sees so much on Facebook and on the Internet in general regarding the problem of plastics in our oceans and the overproduction of plastic packaging. Plastic is a derivative of oil and packaging is a huge problem. We can try to get people to use less packaging but we will not wipe it out altogether. An alternative will have to be found for all of this plastic packaging. If there is to be an alternative, does that represent an opportunity for farmers? Alternatives will not necessarily only come from by-products of the dairy industry.

We often hear about hemp and some of its derivatives being used to produce plastic or packaging products. Are there opportunities in that area? Has research been done in that regard?

Someone was before the committee previously and spoke about the horticultural sector. I was looking at the bottom of the fridge the other day. There were four small beetroots in a small package. They come cooked and ready to eat. They came all the way from Portugal. I cannot understand why we cannot produce them in Ireland. Maybe we cannot and there is some reason for it. Some years ago the volcano went up in Iceland and we had a plume of smoke. People said that if we could not import vegetables into Ireland then we would run out of them after one week. It seems that our supply is in a precarious state. Are there opportunities in the horticultural sector that we could consider? Could we look at technology to move forward with?

Aside from food or food products, are there other things that farmers can produce, sell and make a profit on? There may be technology that can improve things in this area. Genetic modification is something with which food consumers have a problem. That has been clearly stated so we need to be careful in respect of it. However, that does not mean we should not be looking at technology.

Interesting points were made from both sides of the table. Generally, our problem is that we are producing cheap food for the masses. Professor Evans referred to the opportunity to produce a higher quality product for the top shelf and get a better price for it. That brings me back to the point about how we market Irish food. I have Kerrygold butter in mind. The brand has sold exceptionally well throughout the world. Can we do more of that with other Irish products? We need to ensure that it is not only about the food we produce but also about the inputs we use. We need to be able to stand over the process. If we cannot stand over what we produce, we will run into problems later on.

I am interested in the whole idea of developing what are currently niche markets into something mainstream. What research is going on in this area? Where can that bring us? Can it bring us there quickly? In truth, while I absolutely agree there is great opportunity – the deputation discussed this earlier – that opportunity will only come with change. We need to realise that change quickly because Irish farming is in a crisis. While dairy is going well, large sectors of Irish farming are in crisis. If the family farm is not making money, we will see more of the industrial farm. There may be industrial farms owned by families but they still use the industrial farm model. Consumers worldwide and especially consumers near to us do not want that and they have said as much. Food miles are important in Europe. We need to respond by working with what they want.

I am delighted that the witnesses are before the committee and I am glad the work they are doing is going in the direction that I believe we should be going. More work should be done to meet the requirements of the consumer. The main requirement is to ensure that the primary producer gets a proper return. This has been said by everyone at the meeting. That is the big thing missing in all of this. To a large extent, that is not the responsibility of UCD but we have our part to play in it.

Senator Michelle Mulherin

I welcome the UCD research team. I thank its members for the interesting presentation. It is clear that they are involved in cutting-edge work. I commend them and their stakeholders on their work.

It is a great source of pride to most Irish people that we are world leaders when it comes to food and innovation. As others have mentioned, instead of letting it become a twilight industry we have embraced it. We have the necessary roots in it. I am mindful of all the work being done with Irish companies by our guests. It is indigenous work of which we can be proud on the world stage. I know those involved in UCD have to keep working with science and technology and I know that is what they are about.

There has been talk of the dairy industry. The deputation mentioned tillage and soil in the context of getting increasing productivity. To what extent does UCD work with primary producers? In particular, to what extent does UCD work with suckler cow farmers or sheep farmers? It is implicit in talk about the future for young farmers that there seems to be a more upbeat approach in dairy, especially with regard to younger people and the possibilities. Many farmers have small marginal holdings in the west of Ireland. It is not that people are not doing their best. It is not that there is no pride in what people are doing or in their communities. However, it is more challenging. The last winter was extended. Thankfully, it has well evaporated now but it tested many people. I imagine that it made younger people wonder why they would do it.

I will explain why I am asking about the extent to which UCD works with primary producers. Our guests referred to systems and improving production. In the case of diary, UCD is looking at the existing system. The idea is to take what the primary producer produces and then develop by-products to displace plastics made from fossil fuels and so on. To what extent is UCD dependent on the existing system and the fact that the primary producer does not get paid much in the food supply chain?

Is it not the case that the price supports we pursue and that operate under CAP are an integral part of the equation? Is it not the case that UCD is really building on that? If we did not have CAP or price supports and so on, then would the UCD model be completely different? Other than in the abstract, how does UCD address the issues around the price the primary producer is receiving? I know there have been high-level reports and investigations at EU level. However, the reality is that unless we address this, problems will arise. Younger people have more options and they are more educated. They may go into the food industry but perhaps not as primary producers.

Did UCD make submissions on the new CAP to the Commission? Is that part of the role of UCD? Does UCD feed in at that level?

Reference was made to dairy by-products or bio-based alternatives to adhesives and plastics. How does that work with carbon credits? Has that not been considered yet? Of course, farmers and food production keep getting hammered for carbon emissions and carbon efficiency. Is that something that can be credited to farming?

Reference was made to how 30% of the world population is malnourished. Is that the correct figure? I realise that our guests did not go into detail on it. In any event, I understand that more people are probably going to die from obesity than from starvation. There is irony in the fact that in developed countries such as ours, where there is so much emphasis on food and nutrition as well as a great deal of investment in food, people are becoming more obese. While people may be eating more calories and food is more calorific, it is not necessarily nutritious. That is a serious problem for health and well-being. I believe it spills over into mental health as well. Do our guests have any observations on this contradiction? When I go to the supermarket, I can buy processed food far cheaper than anything else. I know we are talking about how to get money to the primary producer but food such as that to which I refer is generally cheaper. More nutritious food seems to be more expensive. We have heard in evidence at other sessions of the growing market for organic food and that people are prepared to pay more. However, it seems only people of a particular socioeconomic background are taking that on. There seems to be many people left behind. What we eat and what we put into our bodies is part of living. Notwithstanding the work of UCD, it seems that we are being pulled back. A sugar tax was imposed in respect of pop drinks and so on in an attempt to combat the problem but it is clearly an issue. I am aware that sugar is addictive.

We find ourselves in an interesting state of affairs where we cannot stop eating once we start or are eating the wrong food and so on.

Senator Tim Lombard

I will be brief, as most of the statements have been made. Given the labour issue, where do the witnesses see the agriculture industry progressing in future? Will that be the new quota and the new barrier to development? During the boom, young people left agricultural colleges and some colleges closed. We have seen that happening again now to some degree, especially this year. Do the witnesses fear that the agricultural sector's real limitation is going to be young trained farmers - or labour of another nature - coming into the system? We have seen a ferocious growth in the dairy industry in the last two or three years since the quotas have gone. Would the witnesses agree that has benefitted the industry enormously but it is questionable how much the farmer on the group has benefitted?

The scaling up of farms - by up to 100% - has had a major social impact on what was a way of life. Would the witnesses agree that it is not just a way of life now, it is becoming a business and with that comes exceptional physical and mental pressures on farmers? How sustainable will the next generation be with those pressures? The real issue is generational change and getting young farmers into the industry. We have had a policy that has increased production and in many ways has left the farmer a slave to that production level with very little income. It was previously stated that the economic factors will ensure farmers will stay. If those economic factors are not good enough, will the farmers stay or in a decade will we have a huge issue because a young trained farmer network will not be coming through? The industry itself be could be in a very dangerous situation.

Ms Triona McCormack

I will try to summarise some of the questions. I thank the Senators and the Deputy for the comments on what we are doing. It is critical that Ireland continues to invest in research and innovation. It is necessary. We are hearing from the committee today how necessary it is that new knowledge comes to the fore and that solutions are found and translated into farms. That is the way forward for a vibrant agrifood sector. I thank the committee for its kind remarks on the quality of our work but also the shared recognition that this is a critical area for continued national investment in research and innovation. It is more critical in this sector than in many others as we seek to find the solutions.

Senator Mac Lochlainn asked if there were solutions where we could find the perfect pitch point between sustainability and intensification. The question was posed specifically on methane emissions but I think the example we gave earlier from the tillage sector applies, where we are bringing technologies and new disease and soil management strategies together - that is a new way of working. Working with industry and the producers is also new. We are finding solutions. They are there but they are not obvious. They require us to do things differently, bring different actors together and work with everybody.

Senator Mulherin had the same question on whether we are engaging with producers. We will be doing more of that as we seek to change the way we do research and innovation to produce these solutions to complex issues. Working in this different way is a relatively new area for all of us. There are examples and they are coming to the fore. The more we can promote those examples, the more we will get buy-in for that way of working and approaching the problem.

Deputy Martin Kenny asked about opportunities in areas with land quality challenges. Professor Evans might come in on this as well. I return to the points we were making about the bio-economy and where we see that going next. The new extraction technologies are really valuable. They are allowing us to see value in products where value was not seen before. They also allow us to reach back and ask what kind of products could we start to grow that might have greater value. Professor Kevin O'Connor - our leader in the national bio-economy research centre and who was mentioned earlier by Deputy Cahill - is considering things like sugar beet and forestry, and asking what opportunity is there for traditional land products like that. We will start to find those opportunities but we need to continue to reach back into the product base, see what we are growing and ask how we can optimise that. Professor Evans might like to add to what I have said in the area of intensification of farming and family farms.

Professor Alex Evans

I will talk a bit about the environment. We do not have any easy solutions either. There is a major challenge around how much carbon it takes to produce a kilogram of beef or a litre of milk. That is a critical question. If more milk is produced, is, proportionally, more carbon and water used? We need to get to a situation where we have a description of the total envelope of megatonnes of carbon we are allowed each year. The question then is how much milk or meat can we produce from that. Increasing efficiency there allows greater production at the same level of pollution, to use that kind of emotive wording. Our milk production going up 22% does not necessarily mean our impact on the environment has gone down 22%. The benefits are coming from more milk per animal. We do have more animals but we do not have the same increase in the number of animals as we have in milk production.

We are also getting better utilisation out of our pastures. I am sure the members of the committee are aware of trying to get tonnes of dry matter per hectare out of the ground and Teagasc's target is to try to get farmers to utilise ten tonnes of grass per hectare. That is very challenging in some parts of the world whereas other people do not find that difficult to achieve. There is a huge education piece there. Our farming structure gives us the potential to do more and the loss of the quotas was symptomatic of that.

We have not started to address the challenge of increasing the carbon fixing abilities of our soils. Understanding the carbon fixing potential of our soil is the first thing that we need to do. Increasing soil capture by 0.4% per year was talked about in the Paris climate discussions in 2015. If we could do that, we would eliminate our climate change challenges. In other words, if people got down to looking at how to increase the carbon capturing ability of the soils they own, they could make a huge difference. That is a challenge facing all of us and I hope we can work on it.

It probably means that it will not be business as usual. Different approaches to how we do agriculture are needed, such as deeper rooting plants and differing tilling methods. People will embrace those approaches more as the challenges become more acute. We may need to grow different kinds of forages on our land to feed to our animals. The tillage sector is definitely having a hard time now but it is acknowledged that we do not grow enough protein crops in Ireland. Maybe we are just growing the wrong plants. That is easy to say when we are sitting in a nice air conditioned room but agriculture is very different around the world. The plants we grow now are very different from what we grew 100 years ago, so what will we be growing 20 years from now? What incentives and market forces will encourage people to change? I think there are outputs there.

Horticulture was mentioned. It is a fantastically successful story in Ireland. It has undergone a transformation in the last decade. I refer to protected crops. There are hectares and hectares of glasshouses in parts of Ireland, in north County Dublin in particular, where fruits and vegetables are now grown on a scale that was heretofore unimaginable.

It is done in a controlled environment, from managing the nutrients going into the plants to managing the diseases of the plants. It is a high-tech industry. Maybe we do not grow all the green vegetables that the Irish people would eat but we certainly are growing an increasing quantity of them.

I would make a another point here. We do make submissions on the CAP, to the Department and to Brussels as well.

Professor Dolores O'Riordan

I will respond to some of the questions Deputy Martin Kenny posed. One example of what we have done with plant growers to give them added value would be the growers of Irish herbs. Traditional Irish herbs, if they are leafy, have quite a short shelf life. We extracted compounds from them and put them into drinks that, for example, were of benefit to joint health. We have taken it from going to their site, growing them to make sure that they were grown in the proper conditions to maximise the benefits that we would get from the herb, and showing them how to extract it, how to make the drink and right through to a human trial to say the benefit this drink it will have to one's joint health. In another example, we worked with a mushroom company developing the technology to enhance the vitamin D level. It is an issue, in particular, for Irish people. Across northern Europe, we find it difficult to get enough vitamin D. There are many health benefits if we could increase the amount of vitamin D. With the technology, we increase the amount of vitamin D, and work right through to human trial to show that those who consumed the mushrooms produced under these certain conditions had higher vitamin D levels. That allowed them to sell at a higher price into the retailers. Retailers in that case were willing to pay a premium for these products. We also have examples of work extracting glucans from seaweed that is found all along the west coast and using it as an animal feed to show that the animals had enhanced immunity and required fewer antibiotics. Indeed, we are now transferring that into the human chain as well to enhance the immune system. Those are merely some examples of what we do.

Deputy Martin Kenny's questions around branding are relevant. It is fantastic what is being done with Kerrygold. At present, we are four years into a project to see whether there are specific benefits in Irish cheese because the milk is coming from a grass-fed regime that is not available in many places around the world. We are working with companies to see can we get a unique selling point for Irish cheese. It would be taking it from working at producer level right through to looking at the nutrient content and the health benefits. It feeds in to the public health element about which Senator Mulherin spoke. We had quite a lot of publicity last year showing that while many people perceive full-fat cheese as having a negative effect on benefits, we were able to show the opposite. In fact, it was decreasing cholesterol and not affecting weight gain even when people were consuming what would be considered quite high amounts of cheese.

There is another niche area that our work would tie into. There has been much mention of sheep in the west of Ireland and a couple of our colleagues within agriculture and food look at differentiating, particularly Irish meat. For example, they were able to take lamb that was reared in Connemara and compare it with lamb from other parts of Ireland, and, indeed, other parts of the world, and show that it is quite different and that one can differentiate it from other products, and then to see whether there are taste benefits coming from that lamb compared with any other. Consequently, one would be able to brand it as, for example, a Connemara lamb with a special taste and perhaps a special nutrient profile. That type of work, based on provenance, traceability and authenticity, is a big element of what we do.

To pick up on the malnutrition piece, I suppose over nutrition is possibly a bigger problem than under nutrition. Our work programme takes on two sides of that. One is looking at it very much at a molecular level because some people become obese and stay relatively healthy whereas other people quite quickly develop inflammatory conditions, such as type 2 diabetes. We have work trying to understand why one person is more predisposed towards obesity and the other risk factors associated with it.

We also work from a public health campaign perspective. As a university, we play an important role within Healthy Ireland and are involved in the initiatives. It is a big challenge in trying to change consumer behaviour. We have moved to foods that we like for that very reason - because we like them. We tend to like foods that are high in salt, high in sugar and high in fat. Consumer behaviour, particularly from our school of public health, is an area of key concern to us.

Senator Michelle Mulherin

Whereas many people torment themselves with low-fat cheese, it is good to hear that full-fat cheese comes out on top. I sincerely hope full-fat butter and milk do too.

Chairman

Will Ms McCormack address the labour issue?

Ms Triona McCormack

Senator Lombard asked where we saw the sector going. The Senator asked about the agricultural drop-off and wondered could we face challenges. I think we could. What the Senator is remarking on is something that is happening right now and it is happening in this context. Our point is there is a different future but we need to create it quickly. We need to take advantage of the new knowledge that is out there and get it quickly out. It was remarked on earlier that the conversation here today is welcome because it is an airing of that potential new future. We quickly need to change that narrative or story around what is possible in agriculture and then in the agrifood sector in Ireland. There is an opportunity. It is back to the point that Professor Evans was making earlier about that continuum. We all need to work together. It needs to be a shared Irish story about how we can sustain the agricultural production sector and make that as attractive as possible, while flowing this new knowledge back, as well as how we can get that out into the agricultural colleges and more embedded in things such as the green certificate, which is recognised already as providing value and much engagement. It is a matter of using our mechanisms well and feeding more of these technology solutions but making them accessible and showing the value and being able to show the differentiation. Critically, there is an opportunity but unless we make change now the opportunity could pass and we could be looking at a sector on the producer side that is in decline. That would be a huge worry for what is a vibrant sector for us nationally and our largest employment sector involving all of those statistics with which the committee members are intimately familiar. I do not know whether Professor Evans has other points to make on that.

Professor Alex Evans

Senator Lombard is correct that labour will be a big issue. We need not skirt around it. As the economy reaches full employment, it will be a big issue. One still has to go out and top the fields, bring the cows in and pick the crops. Maybe that is where being a member of the European Union will continue to help us out and that people will flock to Ireland for jobs again. I would be surprised if that does not happen. Two people have left our university farm and we are now seeking to replace them. I must say it is not easy. The squeeze is on and I can only see it getting worse. Maybe that is a good thing. People have more choices in their employment opportunities and agriculture is one of them.

Professor Mark Keane

In some ways I am getting a bit depressed by the discussion. In the end, we may not have a choice about this. As the Senator stated, the commoditisation of food cannot continue in the way it is going because it will hit the sustainability aspect. It will hit the environment. As many members pointed out, there are elements that are complete contradictions. There are pressures from both sides.

I am an optimist, probably because I work in an area where technology and ideas change quickly. We need to keep in mind that we have done this previously in the IT sector and other sectors. We might not like the processor because it makes too much money from the primary producers, but these are successful sectors in the Irish context. If anything, Ireland has shown that it can adapt to these technologies and that it is adaptable, once it becomes clear what we have to do. We will see radical change in this sector over the next 20 to 30 years. A new generation will emerge which looks nothing like the current generation. The current generation will not move on from what it does at the moment, which is typical. There will be consolidation in the sector as well, and many small farms will disappear. One would hope that we will find a processing niche, possibly in new, higher quality products that are backed by initiatives such as certified origins, etc. but we have to think in those terms. We cannot continue having a discussion about how the farmer is getting screwed and complaining that there are too many constraints from different sources. We have to rethink this problem and start to do something about it because if we sit around and complain about it. we will not solve the problem.

Deputy Marcella Corcoran Kennedy

The challenges of climate change and the responses required were referred to earlier, as well as the conflicts between producing food while reducing our emissions and meeting our targets. Could Ireland produce its own ethanol? We have to increase the blend of ethanol in petrol over the next number of years, and the UK and Ireland are considering how to approach that. Is there any research on that issue?

There was an interesting presentation at a previous meeting about conservation agriculture and how some farmers are deciding to go down that route. Do the witnesses have any views on that or is there any research available on that issue?

There seems to be a shift away from the type of proteins that people are eating, and those being fed to animals. Someone referred to protein plants earlier. Are we doing enough to research what might work here in terms of animal and human consumption? I notice that milk is being replaced by things like soya milk and almond milk. Are we missing out on something by not growing more protein plants ourselves rather than importing them?

I recently came across the idea of vertical farming, which is quite common in Asia. It may sound a little extreme for Ireland, given that we have such lush land, but it has been taken up in different areas and it is something that we could perhaps think about.

Chairman

We have spoken recently about the beef sector and suckler farming and the difficulties that industry is enduring. We had an intensive discussion at our most recent meeting on genomics and technologies related to it. Do the witnesses have any opinion on that? Do they believe it is a way forward? Could it be beneficial to the suckler herd? Sustainability for the future is a significant issue. Do the witnesses believe genomics and technologies could provide a benefit?

Professor Alex Evans

"Genomics" is a fancy word for genetics, and genetics are at the core of animal improvement. The suckler scene, like all other animal-based industries, provides great opportunity for improvement. The big challenge with it is in understanding what is being improved. A good description of the animals is required for it to be successful. Weight gain is a simple measure. If not enough farmers in Ireland weigh their animals to find out which genes give a faster growing animal then the genomics scheme will not work properly. On the surface, it is definitely a fantastic concept, and farmers in Ireland will benefit, but it will take a concerted effort by many people. Without that joined-up thinking, it will not work as well, but the friction of the joined-up thinking is being worked through at the moment. I am a big fan of it, but it is not easy.

Ms Triona McCormack

I will respond to Deputy Corcoran Kennedy on the conflicts between production of food and emissions, and her question on ethanol. We do not have much research on ethanol. One of principles we are following in the context of the circular bioeconomy is to extract the maximum value from the raw material and then look at the energy resource. I understand the context of the question the Deputy asked in terms of transport, etc., but we will have to look at our entire energy system. We have huge opportunities in Ireland, with the availability of renewable technologies such as wind and wave. Our grid is quite an advanced system. We have huge opportunities within the electric future, but I understand that the transition will take time. The mindset in Brussels and at the European Commission is that we should maximise everything that can be extracted from what is produced in the first instance, before it is converted into energy products. We are trying to optimise that first, before looking at the raw materials and the production system in terms of energy sustainability.

The Deputy may have missed the earlier comment I made about how we should look at our entire energy system in an integrated way, including the agriculture base, along with our broader energy system in that regard. That model is being discussed nationally, and it will add to the debate on what kind of mix we need for the future.

Professor Dolores O'Riordan

The Deputy is correct, from both an animal and human nutrition point of view, that it would be good to see more investment in alternative protein research. Protein plays an important role in the food pyramid and animal proteins make up a large part of that. We have had the discussions. Although Ireland does well producing dairy and meat products from a sustainability point of view, they, nonetheless, have a much greater negative impact on the environment than, for example, protein from non-animal sources. Animal proteins are important from a nutritional point of view; one is not going to get the same nutritional profile from plant proteins. As a country that is reliant on dairy and beef exports, we should look at this from an animal feed perspective and look at sources of legumes that we could feed our animals. From both the animal and human nutritional point of view, a research programme in that area would be most welcome.

Chairman

Recently a delegation from the biodiversity, agriculture, soil and environment, BASE, farmers group appeared before the committee. They are a group of generally young farmers who are looking at utilising the soil in a different way and are using conservation techniques that turn back the clock. They do not plough and try to generate more value using fewer sprays and insecticides, and producing more from their crops. Have the witnesses had any dealings with that group? Does its approach have a part to play in the future of farming?

Deputy Marcella Corcoran Kennedy

I asked a similar question earlier. I also asked a question about vertical farming. Perhaps the witnesses could answer that.

Ms Triona McCormack

Professor Evans will answer these questions. Part of the example I gave - which I did not go into detail on - looked at precision agriculture and tillage. Part of the solution is looking at soil management and disease management strategies.

Part of the soil management strategy is relates to not disturbing soil and determining the value and intensification that is possible. I mentioned that we are also looking to increase yield while decreasing the environmental impact. That concerns these soil management strategies as well as data technologies, which give better information on weather conditions and what needs to be done when. As such, instead of preventative strategies, a farmer only responds exactly when they need to, so impacts are minimised.

While I am not familiar with the group, much of what we are looking at involves going back slightly, but also taking advantage of new technologies. We are concerned with marrying the two approaches to make a more sustainable intensified production system. Professor Evans has mentioned that we have our own farm in Newcastle in County Dublin, - Lyons farm - where we trial new technologies. Some of the field management strategies that are being trialled have been mentioned by the Chairman.

Professor Alex Evans

I refer to the balance of inputs versus outputs. Conservation agriculture involves having fewer inputs and considering what the outputs might be as a result. The profit might be greater. There has been huge progress on this in the tillage sector, with practices such as not leaving soil bare, not ploughing it too deeply too many times, the use of cover crops, avoiding till sowing and so on. That all makes perfect sense and people can get their heads around that.

How do we apply conservation agriculture in Ireland in a grass-based system where we do not plough up all our farms? My colleagues in UCD have done some fascinating work on multi species swards over the past number of years. This means not growing one variety of grass anymore, but rather growing up to 20 different varieties of plants for the animals to eat. They have research that shows the benefits of that, but I like to think the amount of plant above the ground is the same as the amount of plant below the ground. If there are multiple species, there are roots going to different depths and occupying different niches, which can thrive or survive drought or flood and can fix carbon at different levels. It is most interesting that the animals seem to do better on this kind of pasture, particularly when we look at their parasite loads. There are natural systems for controlling intestinal parasites. This is part of what our crop production colleagues call "integrated pest management", where one pest can be used against another, or one natural system against another system. That means, for example, less use of chemicals in an apple orchard. A little more fungus might be tolerated somewhere along the way, but there might also be a few more ladybirds, beetles and so on. This creates a different type of product which might be more marketable in the end.

If all that is wrapped up together, we are talking about the ecology of agriculture and biodiverse systems. People are getting back to thinking about agriculture as a system now, rather than just a process of feeding grass to cows and getting milk. It is much more complicated than that, and more researchers are now looking at agriculture as a system. In Ireland, we can do that very well. We have a good grasp of many elements, and many people around the world look to how we manage our system. There is much more work to be done on it for sure.

Chairman

I thank Professor Evans. Does Dr. McCormack wish to conclude?

Ms Triona McCormack

On Deputy Corcoran Kennedy's questions, we are not doing any work on vertical farming but it might be a possibility for the future. We appreciate the committee's engagement this afternoon. It was heartening for us to hear that the work we are doing is delivering value. This committee's support for this work is important. We are at a change point, and we need to take advantage of the change. Unless we have some of those works in train, and have answers ready to respond to the challenges we face, we will miss the opportunity. The committee's engagement on the topics and our work is welcome. I thank the committee.

Chairman

I thank the delegation for coming before the committee. The engagement has been encouraging. There will always be challenges in agriculture but there will be huge opportunities as we move on, and we need to be ready for them. This is a subject we will come back to many times over the next few years as the new CAP is implemented and so on. We are likely to invite the witnesses back to carry on the conversation.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.45 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 12 June 2018.