The FAI will address the committee today on the game of soccer in Ireland, both professional and amateur. This is taking place as part of the study being undertaken into aspects of sport. Great emphasis is currently placed on stadia or the lack thereof, including the appropriateness of location and so on. A number of studies are ongoing in regard to professionalism and amateurism. The IRFU appeared before the committee and it is hoped the GAA will also appear before it. We are looking at the issue of women in sport and the role sport can play in regard to alcohol consumption, which is very pertinent at present. The FAI is a big organisation in most parishes throughout the country. Perhaps the representatives of the organisation will introduce themselves and make their presentation. This will be followed by a question and answer session.
Football Association of Ireland: Presentation.
Mr. Milo Corcoran
I am president of the Football Association of Ireland. I am accompanied by Mr. Kevin Fahy, honorary secretary and currently acting general secretary of the Football Association of Ireland, Mr. John Delaney, honorary treasurer and Mr. John Byrne, planning and development manager of the FAI.
Mr. Kevin Fahy
I thank members for the opportunity to address the committee today on the state of soccer in Ireland, both professional and amateur.
We estimate that more than 300,000 people take part in football in Ireland, including players, coaches, officials and many thousands of volunteers who support the running of the game throughout the country. Our aim and ambition - the reason we exist as an association - is to increase the already substantial levels of participation by all sectors of the community through promoting, developing and fostering the game. It is worth reflecting on the fact that of the 100 plus international matches in which Irish teams play annually, 90% involve under age, schoolboy and women's teams with the senior men's team accounting for only 10%.
The reason I remind members of the raison d’être of the FAI is to create awareness that while the profile and public interest in our senior men’s international team reaches extraordinary heights, the association’s responsibilities lie largely in the arena of grass roots development, encouraging participation in all categories of the game throughout the country. Very few of the 300,000 people get to represent their country, particularly at senior level, which is a fantastic honour. The many thousands who coach, train, mentor, encourage and cajole our young men and women in parks and pitches every weekend have a significant role to play in developing those who might represent their country in the future. More important, they have an enormous impact on society in general.
We are all aware that sport is at the heart of Irish life and football is still at the core of Irish sport. In essence, the qualities we all value such as team spirit, fairness, dedication and commitment are all epitomised through our sporting endeavours. We accept that participation in our game makes a positive contribution to fitness, health and well-being but, more important, it is now widely regarded as having wider reaching benefits, including the development of social skills, self-esteem and leadership qualities. Participation in football activities in communities throughout the country requires that people give of their time and energies to engage in and help others to engage in common social pursuits, thereby increasing social interactions and strengthening community bonds. In short, the greater the levels of participation in our game, the greater the benefit for society as a whole.
The FAI is taking a lead role in bringing about this type of positive social impact. By actively implementing our mandate, we believe the association helps to engage young men and women and educate them in the fields of leadership, diversity, citizenship and healthy development. While last year was dominated somewhat by a number of very high profile issues, including reaching the last 16 of the World Cup, the work of the association at grass roots level continued apace and our plans for this year are no less ambitious.
In recent years, the level of funding available through the sports capital programme has been very limited. The exception being 2002, when capital grants related to the national stadium project were allocated directly to clubs and leagues and invested in facilities and infrastructure.
Current funding of the FAI has been confined to just over €1.5 million annually, allocated through the Irish Sports Council, which has been very supportive of the FAI's many development programmes both centrally and through the LSPs throughout the country.
The blueprint for the development of football in Ireland in the future lies in the association's technical plan. The development of the plan has been greatly aided by a comprehensive series of consultation workshops conducted by the association throughout the country over recent months where our team, led by Brian Kerr and Packie Bonner, listened to and learned from those who are at the coal face of football in this country in order to incorporate the views of the grass roots into the future development of the game. While the plan is under development, the many programmes which benefit all our communities are ongoing. The technical department team of six national and 18 regional development staff brings its experience and expertise to a host of disciplines across all sections of the community.
The main focus of each development officer is to increase participation in their local area. They are available to support schools, clubs and other community organisations, including the provision of advice and coaching education across a wide range of football activities. The team provides support, assistance and guidance, not just in schools and colleges, but throughout the communities through its Football For All policy. Our national development officer, Phelim Macken, has special responsibility for developing and assisting with existing programmes in the areas which support the Irish Blind Sports, Special Olympics, Irish Deaf Sports, Cerebral Palsy Sports and special needs schools.
The FAI's investment in our youth starts at the earliest possible stage through the Buntús programme, which has been developed in conjunction with the Irish Sports Council. The programme is designed as a resource pack of sporting equipment for use by primary and special school teachers in developing pupils' motor skills and starting their introduction to football and sport in general in a fun and enjoyable environment. The Buntús programme aims to bring training and education to more than 200 schools in Ireland this year alone.
The association's programme for summer soccer schools, in conjunction with 7-Up, will see qualified FAI coaches bringing training and coaching to thousands of eight to 16 year olds throughout the country this summer. These youngsters yearn to follow their heroes and become successful in the game full time.
The former senior international team manager, Eoin Hand, now holds the post of career guidance officer, which is important for the many hundreds of young people who require help and assistance. The FAI's national children's officer, Michael Lynam, also plays a key role in the association. Our 18 regional development officers are also responsible for dedicated programmes which are taking place in the areas of refereeing and women's football. All in all, a vast amount of resources is being invested quietly and diligently by the association's highly qualified team to ensure the future development of the game.
The development of the women's game is an example of where a team of dedicated football people is working diligently to foster the game and grow participation. There are 19 national and local leagues. In the past four years we have seen the numbers taking part in the game almost double. In 1999 we had 6,500 players. This year the figure is closer to 13,000. In addition, the WFAI organises an annual under-17 and under-19 interprovincial tournament on a residential basis which will be held this year in NUI Galway over the first weekend in July. There are also national cup competitions for clubs at senior, intermediate, under-18, under-16 and under-14 level.
On the development front, a number of the women's leagues are running women-only coaching courses to encourage more women to become involved in coaching. Other coaching courses have also been promoted. There has been an increase in the number of women participating in such courses. Eight courses have been run in teacher training colleges and universities - 70% of participants were women - while a number of workshops on such topics as nutrition and fitness have been organised to encourage more women to become involved in coaching. There were 12 girls-only summer camps in 2002, six times as many as the previous year. Further encouragement for the game lies in the healthy participation of women in the FAI-Dublin Bus Futsal Programme, in which one third of participants in 2002 in this special version of indoor football were girls.
On refereeing, history was made on the last day of the Eircom League season last year when Hilda McDermott became the first woman to referee a senior league game. She was recently presented with a FIFA badge, becoming the first woman in Ireland to be an international referee. Hilda's first international appointment was in the Algarve Cup, the most prestigious ladies international tournament outside the World Cup and Olympic Games. She travelled with the first all-female international refereeing team, accompanied by assistant referees, Rhona Daly and Aisling Looney, both of whom are members of the FAI's School of Excellence.
On the international front, we participate competitively at senior and under-19 level. At under-17 level the WFAI works hard with other associations in arranging friendly fixtures. Not everyone will be aware that our under-19 women's team were phase one group winners in the 2003 UEFA European Championships.
This brings us to the issue of professional versus amateur teams. The domestic game can best be described as semi-professional, with some clubs opting for full-time professional approaches and others retaining their complete amateur status. By contrast, our nearest neighbours in the United Kingdom have a fully professional structure and all the attendant implications. For the past five years the game in Britain has seen financial gains for players and clubs as the successful promotion of the game, primarily through the medium of television, was amplified as the clubs reaped the benefits of substantial television rights revenues.
The events of the past year or so have radically changed the football environment with clubs struggling to survive, some facing massive debts. Having risen dramatically in recent years, wage bills are now effectively nooses around the necks of even the biggest clubs. Transfer market values are at last reapproaching levels of sanity. One by-product of such an environment is the newly placed emphasis on developing home grown talent. Many clubs are no longer capable of buying in expensive ready-made talent.
In our domestic league we also face financial and structural challenges. Thankfully, the excesses of our neighbours in recent years have not transferred to this market. While we would like the profile of the game here to attain higher levels, the challenge in facing the future is more manageable. There are two major initiatives under way to bring further success to the domestic game - the advent of summer soccer and the UEFA club licensing system.
Last week marked the launch of the first full season of Eircom League summer soccer, an initiative on which we embarked in the knowledge, while untried, we believed it would enhance the game for players and supporters alike. Last year was a transition year but the level of support from the media and the general public was extremely encouraging. We now look forward to a full summer of real excitement in the domestic game. With improved weather, we hope to experience better pitches, better playing conditions, better attendances and, above all, better football.
The introduction of the UEFA club licensing system is probably the most important development for the domestic league in its long and successful history. When fully implemented, the system will introduce benchmarking standards in financial, sporting, legal, administrative and infrastructural criteria to every league club in Ireland. Its objectives will include the improvement of playing standards with continuing priority being given to the training and care of young players, the provision of well appointed and safe stadia facilities and the improvement of the financial and economic capability of the clubs. Each club must fulfil a rigorous but achievable specific set of detailed criteria to warrant awarding of the licence. This is a Europe-wide initiative to ensure certain minimum standards are attained on and off the park. It is an immensely challenging initiative but the clubs are aware that setting standards for each club, and consequently the league, will see benefits accrue in terms of participation and interest into the future. The two initiatives combined and their timing could very well see a radically different and improved Eircom League in a very short period.
The publication in November of the independent review of the events surrounding the World Cup recognised the very positive work done, particularly in the areas of coaching and development, but it also marked a watershed for the association. It clearly indicated that significant changes were necessary to achieve the association's ambitions and maintain and improve our already considerable success rates on the park while bringing a more professional approach to the association's activities off the park. At the time of its publication, the association made a public commitment to implement its recommendations and commence the process of change.
I am pleased to report that significant progress has been made in implementing the review's recommendations and that we are on schedule in our work to bring about, in a constructive and consultative approach, the changes which will benefit the hundreds of thousands of Irish people, young and not so young, who take part in our game annually. I take the opportunity to encourage Members of both Houses to lend their support to the new Eircom League as it begins its first season of summer soccer.
As members of the committee will be aware, the FAI and the IRFU made a joint presentation to the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism yesterday on the development of a stadium. The ongoing investment in all aspects of our game at all levels - I have reminded members of only some of them this afternoon - requires us to take the final step and create a home for Irish football to serve future generations. We will be happy to answer any questions members of the committee may have.
I thank Mr. Fahy for an all-embracing presentation. The women's game, which is often passed as another event, received a significant mention. I appreciate this, particularly as I come from an area where the Greencastle ladies football team has done significant damage on a regular basis in the indoor football championships at national level. I do not have to mention County Donegal's contribution to goalkeeping, between Packie and Shane. I recently noticed in a shop in Dublin the fliers advertising master classes in goalkeeping and summer schools over the summer. I am impressed at the level of participation which seems to be very wide-ranging. As I come from a music background, I realise that some children have an innate ability. Will coaching bring others on or is the association focusing on goalkeeping only in these workshops?
I am pleased the role of those involved at local level is considered important. What is the level of the association's interaction with the Irish Sports Council and local partnerships? Much of the time there is duplication where different organisations are involved in similar activities. As a result, some aspects of the games fall between two stools.
We raised with the IRFU the issue of fans attending matches. We thought that if all of those who had marched in Dublin on a particular day had gone to some of the matches, there might not have been such controversy about the ability of a club to exist. Is Sky Television creating couch potatoes who watch football or are we creating an interest in fans who will either play or watch matches? Will the ease with which people can watch football matches at home impact seriously on the association's ability to get fans out to watch?
I have a personal interest in the Roy Keane issue. Of those who tog out on a Saturday morning - each of whom hopes to be another Roy Keane - only a very small percentage will make it, either nationally or internationally, with Liverpool or Manchester United, etc. As regards those who go away for trials - individuals who are big fish here in a small pond and who then become small fish in a big pond - is there backup when they come back and are probably deemed a failure at a relatively young age? Perhaps they have missed out on their education to follow their dream. Can they become involved in refereeing? Like the young jockeys fund, is there support for those who have been successful but leave the gaze of stardom, perhaps because they have lost their way a little?
Perhaps this is a more contentious question. As regards the development of a stadium, when discussing the Scottish-Irish bid with our Scottish colleagues at the meeting of the British-Irish Interparliamentary Body there was a strong emphasis on the need for a better stadium in the North. Is there any prospect of an all-Ireland football team, similar to that in rugby, whereby an all-Ireland stadium would embrace all aspects of the game?
I welcome the members of the FAI. To be fair, they have given us great enjoyment at national level in the last 14 years. We have had disappointments and hiccups but who has not had hiccups? I am pleased to hear the issues raised are being addressed. I recently met Milo and John in Newbridge when Kildare County was unveiling some of its facilities. How much will the FAI be investing in clubs such as this? Given the major change from a winter to a summer season, will clubs be able to continue to exist in tough competition with the GAA? Given that all premier league and first division clubs have floodlighting, can they now vary the times and dates of matches in their areas, whether on Friday, Saturday or Sunday?
I wonder about the professional aspect, in regard to which there is certainly an onus on clubs because there seems to be a move towards professionalism. Soccer in Ireland has had a professional tag attached at premier level for some time. Perhaps this is not true of all clubs butthere has been a tendency to move in thatdirection.
In the development of our players and trying to detain them at home, there must be a counter balance. There has to be something to match overseas attractions. The most important aspect is Eoin Hand's position as career guidance officer, which is a great idea which should be highlighted as part of the FAI's initiative. Has his position only to do with young players attached to our clubs or will a player who travels from Ireland to England be in contact with him? Is there a mechanism in place to ensure a linkage with those who go to clubs in the United Kingdom or will he just be involved with players at home?
We have heard for years about soccer being played in Croke Park. I will now ask a very simple question. Was the GAA ever asked by the FAI to permit the use of Croke Park? One hears a request from the FAI was turned down and so on. I would, therefore, like a simple yes or no answer.
I again congratulate the FAI which has given years of top class enjoyment to so many, particularly the disabled who cannot attend games. This is the year of the disabled. The entertainment provided during the European Championships and World Cup is wonderful.
I have a bee in my bonnet about local authority estates where clubs seem to cherry-pick players. I have been involved all my life in the GAA and blame it as much as anyone in this regard. Its membes go into big housing estates, pick the best players and forget about everyone else. To be fair to the FAI, it has done a better job than other sports in this regard. Clonmullen United and Woodstock are soccer teams located in housing estates in Athy. This does not happen in the GAA or rugby. I hope this trend continues because it is very important for sports organisations to become involved in large housing estates and look after youngsters. It should be their ambition that players from large housing estates will not be cherry-picked by a strong club in the area which takes the best players and forgets about everyone else.
I thank members of the delegation for their presentation. Some of my questions have been covered by previous speakers.
If the plans for a national stadium are agreed and there is a second stadium in four, five or six years' time, there might be an opportunity to show the plans to the GAA and ask for the use of Croke Park for certain games during that period. Perhaps it would move if the issue was approached in that manner.
In relation to the GAA and other clubs, there is often an effort locally on the part of officials to get in each other's way, especially in relation to games. On a Sunday morning, for example, the soccer and GAA games will be scheduled to take place at the same time, which does not help the players playing on both teams. Has anything been done at national level to solve this? These problems certainly occur in certain areas. The organisations should be encouraging people to play as many sports as possible.
Deputy Fiona O'Malley and I are carrying out a study of alcohol and how sports will deter people from abusing alcohol and becoming involved in crime. Has the FAI carried out any such studies? Does the organisation believe sport deters people from drinking or does it have the opposite effect? Alcohol is often associated with some sports. Does soccer receive a large amount of sponsorship from drinks companies and at local level from public houses?
As Deputy Deenihan is not present, I better mention the women's soccer team. He would be delighted to talk about it if he was here. What can be done to improve women's soccer? There is a belief that the media could give it greater coverage. I was surprised to hear about its success, as outlined in the presentation. I was not aware of it. What can we do to assist it? Would the FAI support the call that has been made to designate 2004 as the year for women in sport?
The IRFU and the FAI co-operate closely with regard to Lansdowne Road. Does this happen in other towns and counties with regard to local facilities and pitches? Even if pitches are not shared, are car parking and clubhouse facilities shared? This is an issue in many places. It would probably be awkward to ask the GAA and the FAI to share facilities but it would be useful if it could be done with gyms and so forth. There could be centres for sport with ancillary pitches for the various codes.
The FAI distributed packs of sports equipment to primary schools. The local sports partnerships also distributed packs with all types of equipment. They did not distribute GAA equipment because that organisation is organising its own distribution. Is the FAI working with the sports partnerships or is it operating alone? This means there will be three groups arriving with bags of equipment to schools. That is a pity because it should be a joint effort.
It sounds like the Spanish way of celebrating Christmas - three kings arrive rather than Santa.
I thank members of the delegation for their presentation. The burning question is the stadium. Technically, we have a national stadium in Croke Park. Much public money went into its development. It is a wonderful stadium. I am not enthusiastic about the prospect of building a second one. Perhaps members of the delegation would discuss this further. Would they consider Croke Park adequate if the FAI was allowed to use it? Circumstances have changed for the GAA and the Government in terms of the available finance. In the FAI's list of preferences, where would it come? I would also like members of the delegation to discuss the other possible options further.
I presume the FAI is financially sound given the amount of support it receives. I see one of the delegate's eyes popping at that remark. Perhaps they would give further information in that regard. The FAI certainly fills the stadium with crowds and has tremendous support. Although the organisation has had a difficult year, I was surprised to hear that finances might not be as rosy as somebody like me, who does not know the ins and outs of soccer, would expect. I would like to hear more about finance because I have the impression that the FAI should be a rich organisation which is well able to finance a certain amount of work itself.
I am also interested in hearing more about the senior women's international team. I could not name one member of it or even say it exists. How successful is it? There is a reference to a WFAI in the submission. I assume it is the Women's Football Association of Ireland. Why is it different or separate? In being separate it is isolated and, perhaps, not getting the attention it should. Everybody should be able to reel off the names of the senior women's team as readily as the names of the senior men's team. Hilda McDermott is the first female referee but I got the impression from the presentation that she was only allowed to referee women's games. Is that correct? Why would women only be allowed to referee those games? Is it a question of lack of practice and that she will be invited to referee a men's game?
The FAI concluded a deal with Sky Television and other television broadcasters for television rights which has gone flat because of the new legislation. Will the delegates discuss this further in terms of the finance available to the organisation? I presume it means it will not receive the massive amount of money it expected. What impact will this have on its growth and development?
I welcome the representatives of the FAI. I congratulate the organisation on the great successes in the last 15 years and thank its members for the happiness and boost to the national morale they generated. I do not use those words lightly. Our emergence onto the world stage in soccer had much to do with the genesis of the Celtic tiger and the general air of confidence that emerged in over that period. Despite the glitches and difficulties the FAI has experienced, people tend to lose sight of how far Ireland has come over the past 15 to 20 years. I remember Eoin Hand's team being unlucky losers in terms of qualification for a tournament. We should never lose sight of the huge contribution the FAI, through the international team, has made to society.
I also congratulate the FAI on the manner in which, through different branches of the organisation, it works so diligently at grassroots level. One of my colleagues mentioned the difference in how the FAI and the GAA operate at local level. Soccer tends to be organised in housing estates rather than through the parish. That is a welcome trend, particularly in urban areas, and should be encouraged in every way.
It is significant that a full page of the FAI's presentation is devoted to the women's game. The committee received a delegation from the sport with which I am associated a few weeks ago when a similar presentation was made but there was no mention of the women's game. The question had to be asked. Legislators must pay particular attention to areas of potential development for sport. Women's sport - my colleagues share this view - is dramatically underdeveloped. I am aware of the existence of the Women's Football Association of Ireland. What is the nature of the FAI's link with that association? Considerable input is made to the women's game. While there might not be any household names, there are several girls in my constituency who have gone to play professionally on the international scene. It is not a professional game here.
I also congratulate the FAI on the obvious attention it is paying to the role of the disabled. That it has a development officer with specific responsibility for dealing with that sector is praiseworthy. The IRFU does not do this. I am not sure about the GAA but if it does, it keeps its light under a bushel. Soccer worldwide has a reputation for being the game of the people. It is great to see that the FAI is carrying out this role throughout Irish society also.
As an occasional attender in the past 30 years at various League of Ireland grounds, I congratulate the FAI on the emergence of summer soccer. I have not yet been to O2 Park this year but intend to go there tomorrow night. It is a positive initiative and probably overdue but better late than never. What are the FAI's projections for percentage increases in attendances? What is the time-frame for the positive effects anticipated from the changeover in terms of the viability of League of Ireland soccer on a commercial basis?
Another issue mentioned by my colleagues, including the Chairman, is the welfare of returning emigrants who did not make it in soccer in England. I am aware of Eoin Hand's work, an initiative on which the organisation deserves congratulations. However, what is the formal nature of the arrangements in place in terms of education? There is also the issue of former players of international status who may have fallen on hard times. One such case attracted great attention a few years ago. I was struck by a photograph last weekend in The Sunday Times which does a weekly feature on teams from the past. Last week’s photograph featured the all-Ireland team that took on Brazil, I think, in 1973. It was striking to see the number of players from that group who had since endured personal difficulties. Perhaps the delegates will inform the committee if there are formal arrangements in place in regard to the welfare of ex-international players or whether these are still relatively informal.
There is also the issue of the traffic in young players across the channel. Great efforts are being made, with some success, to thwart this traffic and provide alternative options within the State. However, is there any evidence of a black economy in the area? If there is such an economy, is it possible to tackle it or will we just have to live with it?
Deputy English referred to joint facilities. As such facilities at national level are already under debate, there is no point adding to it here. I am interested in the sharing of facilities at local level. Historically, there has been a difficulty but, in terms of the future development of sports facilities in communities, it is something with which all organisations will have to deal proactively, regardless of what has happened in the past. In communities in other countries there are multi-sports facilities on a single campus with a single clubhouse. There are extremely effective cost and management arrangements for the promotion of such facilities. Has the FAI given this arrangement any consideration and does it see any potential in it? Regardless of the attitudes of organisations in the past, we must look forward. There is a new dynamic in sport and the development of community facilities. I look forward to hearing the FAI's views.
I wish to be associated with the compliments to the FAI on the success and enjoyment it has brought to everybody in recent years. I recall from my student days hearing Joe Haverty, who was still playing for the Irish international team, pointing out that he was quite small while Charlie Hurley was six foot four but the same gear arrived for both of them. He was most uncomfortable in it. He also said on the same occasion that it was harder to get off the Irish team than to get on it. He claimed he was past it but he was still on the team. I believe, however, he was being unfair to himself.
In 1993, when I was Minister of State with responsibility for food, the Italian market opened up as a result of supplies from the east being blocked because of a disease problem. The Irish product achieved a large market share. I was advised at the time that a large factor in this was the positive impression Irish fans had created in Italy during the 1990 World Cup. Italy is a fashion market which assisted us. There can be financial and economic gains from football.
The isssue of the stadium has been raised. As it is at a sensitive stage, I will not ask any probing questions. I have always held the view that a stadium with a capacity of 65,000 is both desirable and necessary. The 80,000 seater stadium proposed was somewhat large. I was most disappointed that the other part of the proposed development at Abbotstown, the campus of sporting excellence, did not go ahead. It would have been an important facility for sport in general. It would have contained training facilities, medical backup, a dope testing centre and so forth.
I understand that during the Jack Charlton era, the real demand for tickets was seldom more than 40,000. Is that accurate and is it still the situation? I will not ask a direct question about the size of the stadium because the delegates probably do not want to address it. Would a stadium with, for example, 80,000 seats be suitable? How often would the FAI have an event that would require that amount of seating?
I was talking to a referee from another code over the weekend and he pointed out that it was difficult to maintain the number of referees. He said referees were leaving. Often they take a year off and do not return. It has also been alleged that over-enthusiastic parents who attend schoolboy games pressurise children in a rather silly way. The first object of sport, whether it be soccer, GAA or athletics, is that young people should enjoy it. How healthy is the situation with regard to new referees coming on stream? Are referees getting a harder time throughout the sport than previously?
The final issue I wish to raise has been mentioned by other members of the committee. It is the idea that celebration of success in sport should involve alcohol. Does the FAI have a problem with this attitude? There has never been a time when it has been more important to have well organised sports activities. The figures mentioned in the presentation are most impressive. The FAI more than doubled its active membership between 1999 and 2003, when it increased from 6,500 to 13,000. The bottom line, however, is whether sport is healthy. Is discipline good on and off the field? Are there any major areas of concern? The problem of parents pressurising children was a matter of concern for the Irish Sports Council and it published guidelines in that regard.
I hope there will be a second stadium as we need it. Given the demands in the various sports, I cannot see sharing Croke Park as the answer. The GAA is a private organisation and will make its own decisions about it. We have a different road to follow. Well done and continued success to the FAI.
There are a number of ideas for the delegates to discuss. Do you wish to comment on the centre of excellence? Young people always look up to well known personalities and, for ten to 12 year olds, these tend to be football stars. It might be a local person, a national player or an international star. What role can footballers take in giving a healthy message and being a good role model for children in encouraging them to have a healthy lifestyle? When the IRFU came before the committee, its representatives told us they could fill the stadium many times over for a given match but they must sell the tickets for a certain amount to cover costs. They said that 23,000 or 45,000 would not be enough tickets and that they would require a bigger stadium. I will not give my opinion on what size the stadium should be but would you agree that while the FAI might fill stadia, it does not get the turnover it needs and that this has an impact on the professional game?
A vote is due in the House at about 5.30 p.m. so perhaps you would tailor your responses to that limited amount of time.
Mr. Fahy
There was a range of questions and we will endeavour to cover as many as possible.
Mr. John Byrne
I will deal with the questions on development, infrastructure and shared facilities. The association published a document last year entitled "One Game, One Association", our strategy document for 2002-06. One of the areas we dealt with was football and partnership and providing facilities and sharing them with other codes. We said it would also be necessary in certain locations for the FAI to work with other national governing bodies in creating shared multi-purpose facilities for community use. The FAI recognises that access to facilities, not ownership, is the most important issue. Where facilities can be provided through partnership structures with other sports organisations and/or local authorities, these solutions will be developed.
As planning and development manager of the association, one of my biggest regrets is the lack of use of schools and third level colleges. It is something the Department of Education and Science and the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism should examine. What we are trying to do is, in effect, replicate facilities that already exist but which are locked at 4 o'clock every afternoon and the local communities do not have access to them. Yet we are trying, perhaps 200 yards down the road, to provide a pitch and another hall. This is something that deserves serious examination.
With regard to Deputy Wall's question about the larger housing estates, the structure of the GAA is parish based while there is a traditional structure for the clubs within the IRFU. Our association has an emphasis on dealing with the masses rather than with elites. We do not prevent clubs, particularly schoolboy or youth clubs, from being established. That is probably the reason for our success in the major urban areas. This would also apply in rural areas, if we gauge an increase in population. Under our strategy and with the co-operation of the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism, we have based our future plans for major facilities, regional development centres and so forth on the national spatial plan.
Mr. John Delaney
I will deal with the financial issues and answer Deputy O'Malley about our lack of financial strength. The FAI is not a big organisation in terms of the income it generates. Turnover this year to March will be between €12 million and €12.5 million. When I became treasurer of the association less than 18 months ago the balance sheet would have had a value of approximately €1 million net. That is not strong.
I will give a snapshot of how the FAI has evolved in five years. I did this for the members at the AGM. In 1997, we employed 26 people while in 2002 we employed 58. Of the 26 in 1997, only two were in the coaching and development area. Today, we employ approximately 28 in that area. In 1997 we played 46 internationals at all codes; in 2002 we played 102. To put that in context, it is at these non-senior internationals that the young Robbie Keanes and Damien Duffs learn their craft. On cold Tuesday nights in the Czech Republic, these guys are playing at 14 or 15 years of age for the Republic of Ireland. They do not get as much coverage as when we qualify for the World Cup but it is as expensive to send a non-senior team to the Czech Republic as it is to send the senior team.
Our success at under age international level is due to the FAI investing heavily in that area. We have qualified for nine European and World Cup finals at under age level since 1997 under Brian Kerr. We play approximately twice as many under age games as Scotland. Northern Ireland has huge concerns about its under age programme, even at under 21 level. This is a real cost to us. The benefit is seen at higher international level but it is a cost.
With regard to the 102 international games we played in 2002, only six of them were profit making, namely our six home international matches. We have attendances at those games, if they are full, of 33,000 people but because of the FIFA and UEFA laws there must be bucket seats or temporary seating at either end of the ground, amounting to 11,000 seats. We virtually break even on those 11,000 seats, given the rent we must pay for renting them and for rent to the IRFU as well as insuring them. What the FAI is doing is accommodating 11,000 people in the ground at virtually no profit.
Roughly, the insurance cost of the international senior team playing, to insure the players based on their capital value and the wages they earn, is more than €100,000, an extraordinary figure. Every time the team plays, it costs the FAI at least €100,000 and, on occasions, it has cost us £100,000 sterling.
Is that for every game?
Mr. Delaney
Yes, every game. That is based on their capital values and their wages values. It is the one employment, if one takes an accountant's view, in which one gets to sub-contract the employee from the employer and where one does not have to pay the employer for them even though one might return them not as fit as when one sub-contracted them. We must cover ourselves from an insurance point of view.
For the year to March 2003 we will make a modest profit, only because we will probably make €2 million profit from the World Cup. That is the first time the FAI made money from the World Cup. In 1990 and 1994 we did not make money from either of the tournaments. These are facts. The Bastow Charlton report would have shown that. We have a budgeted deficit for this year of €500,000. We are reliant on the success of the international team at senior level and I do not believe, as treasurer of the FAI, we can internally finance ourselves going forward unless we have outside resources, bearing in mind that the €0.5 million deficit is before we implement Genesis in terms of the cost applications, club licensing and the technical plan on which Packie Bonner has worked extremely hard.
In regard to the Sky deal, all we wanted in terms of television rights in Ireland was to attain market value. We sought an appropriate balance in that deal between the public being able to view the game and being able to fund our game, as I outlined. The appropriate balance as delivered would have been the game shown as live on TV3 after the game. As a young kid I watched BBC's "Match of the Day" on Saturday nights knowing the scores of all the games. The idea was to get an appropriate balance but to fund the game. This was not a profit-making venture. The aim was to fund the game to make sure, on the figures I outlined, that we can play more under age internationals and continue to put more people into developing, coaching and fostering the game. If people want a new professional FAI, for which we are all striving, we need the funding for it. If we do not have the funding we cannot do it. That is why we entered the deal.
In terms of the stadium size, the Deloitte & Touche report which we got recently states that if a new stadium is built, and a new stadium is an absolute must for the FAI and the IRFU, we will achieve an extra €2 million per year funding. In the context of a turnover of €12 million, that is an extraordinary percentage.
Regarding Jack Charlton and the figure of 40,000 people, I know from experience, as do my colleagues, that in relation to the Holland and Portugal matches we would have doubled or trebled it - potentially the demand for tickets was extraordinary. We tend to put our tickets through our affiliates and, except for friendly games, we do not sell a large number of tickets to the public because we do not have the ability to do so.
In terms of alcohol and sponsorship, Mr. Fahy outlined clearly how we developed the game. We need such sponsorship to develop the game. If we do not have that funding we cannot do what I believe we do extremely well, which is develop and foster the game of football in Ireland.
Mr. Fahy
I shall attempt to address some of the other questions. The Chairman mentioned goal-keeping, coaching and other skills and asked whether we were confined to those areas. The answer is "no". We have a wide-ranging coaching programme with highly qualified coaches. We have a coach education programme to qualify coaches and the standards relating to this are based on UEFA standards. We have an introductory course and level one, level two and level three courses which set a very high standard. That is the quality of coaching that is put into, for example, the 7-Up summer soccer schools mentioned in my address to the committee. Goal-keeping coaching is a very specialised skill and we are very pleased to have somebody of the quality and stature of Packie Bonner who is now also our technical director. I have just been reminded that he also happens to be from Donegal.
There was a question in relation to international players and former international players who fall on hard times or find themselves in difficulty. We have an international players trust fund, which has been in place for the past 15 years at least, which is used to help individuals in such situations. Deputy Glennon mentioned a case some years ago. It was used in that case as well. It is part-funded from a small percentage of the take at our international gates. We have a board of trustees, which includes some former international players as well as the honorary treasurer of the association.
There was also a question in relation to an all-Ireland team. There is the issue of whether one is involved in soccer. One would have to see, but currently there are no moves afoot. That is something we would never rule out. It was the case at one time.
In relation to back-up support for those coming home, which was touched on by several Deputies in relation to Mr. Eoin Hand's role, Mr. Hand was appointed career guidance officer. Not only was he a former international team manager, but he was also a former professional player and club manager in England, which gave him a terrific background of knowledge and experience which has been put to good use in relation to players. We look after not only players at home, but particularly players who go to England. That service is available for young players and Mr. Hand keeps in regular touch with clubs where there are young Irish players.
In addition to that, we recently set up, through Mr. Hand and in conjunction with DCU, what we call the REAP programme which is a programme specifically designed for players who have been let go by their clubs in England. That was set up last year. It is clearly dependent on the demand for it, but it is part-funded by the Football Association of Ireland. It is also part-funded, interestingly, by the Professional Footballers' Association in England because it is part of its mandate in terms of looking after the further education of players when they retire. As part of that, Mr. Hand attended the Lillishall trials. Lillishall is one of the FA's training bases in England. It is where players who have been released by their clubs go on trials in the hope of being signed up by another club, perhaps in a lower division. That is the approach there. It is being addressed and it is something of which we would like to do more and more.
To expand a little further in relation to the drain of players from Ireland, keeping them at home is very difficult. We cannot simply stop players going. The only way that can be tempered is by providing realistic alternatives. The dream is the dream of every young kid. We would like - it is something I personally hold dear - a situation where we could hold on to our young players until they are mature enough and old enough to go because statistics prove that those who are more mature and that little bit older when they go have a greater chance of succeeding in making a full-time professional career. It is also our desire to keep as many of our best players at home and channel them into our own professional league, the Eircom League, which would have widespread benefits.
On the issue of Croke Park and facilities for a national stadium, as Deputy Wall rightly pointed out, it is not a decision for us in the first place. Obviously, our preference is for a stadium. We believe that is now possible after presenting our summary report yesterday to the Minister. We believe it is affordable. We have sound options available to us and it is something that we absolutely need if we are to continue to fund the game, fund developments, get into housing estates and communities and provide the services in those communities, whether it be in clubs or schools or both. We have to have a stadium with the capacity to provide the revenue streams for us because otherwise, given our situation with UEFA regulations, as Mr. Delaney said, we will have a reduced capacity, even with Lansdowne Road, of 24,000 seats, which simply makes our position untenable.
Mr. Byrne
To return to Deputy O'Malley's queries about Hilda McDermott, she is an Eircom League referee and refereed her first game, between Dublin City and Athlone Town, at the end of last season. She will be a member of the Eircom League panel this year.
Regarding the Women's Football Association of Ireland, the council of the FAI is made up of the provincial associations and our national affiliates, of which the WFAI is one, just like the Football Association of Irish Schools or the Schoolboys Football Association of Ireland. They have equal representation to those affiliates and have a member on our board of management. They are treated as equals in all respects.
I think Deputy Wall asked about Kildare in particular and about competing with the GAA and so on. I think all our grounds, with one exception, now have floodlights and that gives us scope to play our games without clashing with other major fixtures. That money came initially from a deal, believe it or not, with Sky and the Football Association when they began to broadcast into the country. The money was used to provide floodlights in all the league grounds around the country.
I think Deputy English raised one other point——
Have you done any studies on the issue of alcohol and sport?
Mr. Byrne
We have not carried out any studies ourselves but a number of our players have participated in promotions. Damien Duff was involved in an EU anti-smoking programme last year with Commissioner Byrne and some of our international players and Eircom League players have done work for various bodies, including the anti-racism programme. We absolutely support the nomination of 2004 as the year for women in sport and would like to be a full participant in any programmes that the committee would devise.
A vote has just been called in the House so I shall bring the meeting to a conclusion by thanking our guests very much for a very fully reply to us. In terms of the issues outstanding in relation to our report, such as what is going on amongst individual players, we would like feedback because there is no point re-inventing wheels if there is a lot going on. I propose that we keep in contact.
Does the association believe its stadium has to be in Dublin?
Is Cork an option, for instance?
Mr. Byrne
Facilities such as hotels, the airport and so on exist in the Dublin area. Under FIFA and UEFA regulations a stadium must be within a certain radius of the airport.
I thank most sincerely the representatives of the FAI and wish the national team and all the local teams every success in the ongoing and up-coming seasons. Italia 1990 was my first real encounter with serious soccer and I enjoyed it thoroughly. We look forward to ongoing success in whatever stadium is developed.
The joint committee meeting adjourned at5.35 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 1 May 2003.