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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ARTS, SPORT, TOURISM, COMMUNITY, RURAL AND GAELTACHT AFFAIRS debate -
Wednesday, 13 Oct 2004

Sports Policy: Presentation.

We are glad Deputy Allen has agreed to meet the joint committee today in his capacity as a former Minister of State at the Department of Education and Science with special responsibility for sport. We are looking into the performance of the Irish team at the Olympic Games in Athens and the concept of elite athletes, as well as the direction in which sports policy should be moving. As Deputy Allen had special responsibility for sport, we would like to receive the benefit of his experience and perhaps his personal observations about recent events. Our purpose is not necessarily to rap knuckles but to find out if there are obvious reasons Irish athletes did not achieve their personal best times at the Athens Olympic Games. There may be aspects about which we can learn in order that we will not emerge from the next Olympic Games in four years' time asserting that we should have had great success, given that our participating athletes were the best funded and trained, etc.

Unfortunately, Deputy McDaid is unable to attend today but hopes to do so on another day.

It is strange to be sitting in this part of the room where I am usually targeting others. I thank the Chairman and members of the committee for giving me the opportunity to attend.

In December 1994 I was unexpectedly thrust into the job of Minister of State with special responsibility for sport. I quickly realised that sport was grossly under-resourced and that there was no hope of receiving greater resources in the absence of a national or business plan. Like a business person going to a bank to seek major funds, a Minister of State with special responsibility for sport without a national strategy or business plan had little or no chance of getting the resources sport and recreation deserved. Much of my two and a half years in the job was spent in attempting to put into place such a plan for sport. I consulted widely and concluded that such a strategy was necessary.

I was in Waterford for John Treacy's farewell race early in 1995, following which I spoke to him at length in a hotel about sport. I quickly realised that he was a man of vast experience as a practitioner at the highest level and having won an Olympic silver medal. He was very informed about sport at both national and international level and had learned the hard way what was required to develop and compete internationally. I understood from his philosophy that unless one nurtured the grass roots, there was no real chance of consistently achieving peak performances at international level.

About one month later I asked John Treacy to chair the group I was setting up to look at policies and strategies for sport. This took him by surprise but, having thought about it, he agreed. I installed a small group of individuals who worked with him like beavers. I was amazed at their work rate. There is a comprehensive report, as well as a summary, on sport and the changes needed outlining what the group achieved. It was presented to me late in 1996. The appendices indicate the level of consultation between the group, sports and educational organisations.

The term of office of Cospóir had expired and a new Sports Council was needed. John Treacy was chairman of the policy group. I believed the best thing to do to implement the policy was to also make him chairman of the Irish Sports Council. The policy looked like being innovative and I believed the best way to drive it forward was to use the man who wrote it with the policy group. I appointed the members of the Irish Sports Council late in 1996 and made the council responsible for promoting the new plan for sport. It was published in early 1997. However, the people had their say in June 1997 and I had no opportunity to implement it. Nonetheless, to be fair to Deputy McDaid, he ran with the report.

The summary deals with the core principles set out for sport and states that the sports strategy should have a people centred focus and that sports provision should have the needs, choices and abilities of participants — the operative word being "participants" — as its central focus. The report referred to equality and partnership between the sports sector public authorities, the private sector and organisations. It spoke of quality of achievement at all levels, with an emphasis on "all".

A core principle of the report was to support sport at grass roots level so that quality would rise to the top. However, the most important principle was to encourage all, especially the young, to get involved at grass roots level. They should try all sports to find one they like and then stick with it subsequently. A further principle was that sport would not just be sport but a key element in the fight against crime and drugs. The committee may remember that a Government task force was at that time considering the problem of the use of illegal drugs in Ireland. There was a question of anti-social behaviour, which is worse now. Sport and youth organisations were to be used as preventative element in the fight against crime and drugs. These were the core principles. There was also the principle of a strong grass roots with the development of facilities at school level. Talented people would come to the top and would be given the proper supports when identified as talented. However, the key principle was participation and to get all involved.

I pay tribute to Deputy McDaid who followed many of the principles. However, if asked how the sports strategy was implemented, I would answer that it managed to attract resources because the business plan was in place at that stage. However, I am disappointed with the over-obsession with spectator professional sport. Much of the time of political representatives has been taken up with, for example, Abbotstown or whether Croke Park should open. There has been an over-emphasis on spectator sport and professional sport. The grass roots have not received the resources or slice of the cake they deserve.

When considering how to achieve at international or Olympic level, we must see it as a long-term process. Unless we nuture the grassroots and the young, it will not happen. We have a population of 3 million, yet we are competing with the super powers in population terms. Many schools still do not have a sports hall. Clubs in all areas have 19th century facilities while we talk about super stadiums and agendas to develop professional sport at a pan-European level.

This was the real motive behind Abbotstown. There was an agenda to bring professional soccer at a pan-European level to this country and Abbotstown was to be the vehicle. We exhausted our talents and time in debating those issues when we should have been developing talent in schools and clubs, for which we should have provided facilities and the majority of the resources.

To answer the Chairman's question on the Olympics, it is a case of deja vu. We had a similar discussion following the Atlanta and Sydney games to this discussion on the Athens games. We will probably have a similar discussion in 2020 unless we return to the core principles of the national plan.

I appreciate the work the Deputy undertook in bringing sport to the foreground. The evolution of a senior Minister with responsibility for sport gave the sector a new status and focus resulting in much change. The Deputy referred to a focus on people and participation. However, the Sydney games resulted in an athletes' commission which rode their pathway to the Athens games but which was separate to the review of the Athens games. Does Deputy Allen believe the athletes who participated at Athens have had their voices heard? Given the different squabbles within the Irish Sports Council, Olympic Council of Ireland and the athletes' commission, are the athletes central to our goals for the Olympics?

Mr. John Treacy of the Sports Council was before the committee last week. He told us we will never come back with a bag of medals whereas I always say "never say never". Deputy Allen stated we should focus on the young. Is there a way of achieving a balance in regard to funding different areas? At present, we put little funding into education. Should we perhaps for a time completely stop focusing on Olympic or elite sport and focus elsewhere? Can we afford to have a small amount of funding going in one direction with the rest of the funding going elsewhere?

Some years ago, Deputy Allen suggested drug testing was fatally flawed in regard to how it was set up and how the analysis was communicated to the governing bodies. He stated there was no interpretation and that he saw huge weaknesses in the system. Has drug testing improved and tightened up in the intervening years or is he still concerned?

To be fair to the Ministers since I left office — Deputies McDaid and O'Donoghue — they put the interests of athletes at the centre. However, decisions made elsewhere have deflected this in that the matter of Abbotstown was taken out of the hands of the Minister responsible for sport and announced unilaterally. While successive sports Ministers have put athletes at the centre, until such time as we invest at local level in community based facilities, John Treacy is correct that we will not get a bag full of medals. We may never get this due to the size of our population and our expectations may be too high.

Investment should be made in the capital programme and facilities, starting with the schools and clubs, which will allow talent to develop and the cream to come to the top. It is then a matter of nurturing that talent, and giving all that is needed to support and develop it, locally and internationally. There should also be an emphasis on coaching and physical education in schools, but that is not happening. There will always be some who will aim for the top despite shortcomings but their number will be small and consequently our results will be unimpressive.

Nevertheless, our athletes are doing their best. Those who went to Sydney or Athens were full of determination to use their talents to represent this country. Those athletes cannot be faulted.

There have been turf wars among the major sporting organisations, which is regrettable. I had to bring organisations together after the games in Atlanta and tell them to grow up and co-operate with each other. A decision was made in the context of the policy document Targeting Sporting Change in Ireland to take funding from the constituent organisations within the Olympic Council of Ireland and give it to the Irish Sports Council. I thought that would open up the situation within the Olympic council but it did not. I am merely a bystander or onlooker reading the newspapers but I believe there is a realisation now that everybody must work together and there has been a reduction in the turf wars. The Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism, Deputy O'Donoghue, has done great work to achieve that.

The drug testing programme as set out in this strategy has been implemented. What has been happening in Athens and before the games shows that the drug testing programme is working at the best level it can, using the latest technology. However, there will always be those who will bypass the system and cheat. We are running a very modern and efficient drug testing programme and all the sporting organisations are co-operating and have co-operated in the past 12 months. It took a long time for some of them to change their constitution and rules to make their athletes accountable to the organisations and take disciplinary measures when cheating was detected. That is in place and is working with maximum efficiency.

I thank the Chairman for inviting the two former Ministers and giving us the opportunity to listen to their collective wisdom. I have no doubt we will have the opportunity to listen to the former Minister, Deputy McDaid, in a few weeks' time.

I compliment Deputy Allen on his forthrightness in identifying John Treacy as somebody with the potential to formulate the kind of vision which will dictate where Irish sport will go in the next decade. For that we should all be grateful. I also congratulate him on initiating the process of setting up the Irish Sports Council on a statutory basis when the report which he mentioned identified such a council as the vehicle to drive policy forward. Deputy Allen did not have time to complete it but it was completed later by Deputy McDaid when he introduced legislation to put it on a statutory basis.

When we last met, Deputy Kelly eulogised the Minister Arts, Sport and Tourism, Deputy O'Donoghue. I agree that the Minister has done a very fine job. The achievements of Deputy Allen should also be recognised. He made a great impact in a very short period of time.

I agree with the sentiments that sport should be enjoyed by the many and not only the few. In Ireland we are tending to cater more for the few rather than the many. We need to reverse our policy and our vision. Unfortunately we do not see the potential in the many. Sport should be seen as a continuum between mass participation at one end and elite participation at the other. In the centre we have the administrative structures, coaching, national sports organisations and so on. It is very important to nurture both ends of the spectrum.

There should be a major emphasis on mass participation for a number of reasons. Health is the first. It is obvious and need not be restated that this country has an obesity problem. One in two people is now overweight and one in eight is obese according to recent research carried out by the Department of Health and Children and announced by the then Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin, in July. We do not need any more reports to prove this. In addition, it is a proven fact that our children are leaving primary schools with very poorly developed skills, even in terms of very simple skills such as throwing, catching, skipping, running or walking. They seem no longer able to do these activities naturally. There is a total absence of physicality in their lives.

When I was at school we walked or cycled. We did jobs at home that involved lifting and weight-bearing. We kept fit through our daily activities. If one was born in rural Ireland, one worked on one's farm or on a neighbour's farm and did various jobs associated with farming. That has been removed from young people's lives. As a result we are becoming heavier as a nation and our bodies are becoming weaker. That is why it is important to have a proper professionally delivered physical education programme in schools.

Every youngster in the country must go through primary schooling. That is the time to catch them, during that eight-year period from five to 13 years of age. It is a long period. It is the most formative time in a young person's physical development. If we do not influence their habit formation at that time the opportunity may be lost forever. That is why there should be a major emphasis on physical education in primary schools. It will not be easy. That is the first thing we must all realise. It will cost money. However, the cost will be more than made up by a reduction in our health bill in the future. If money is put into prevention in the initial stages it will be saved down the line. I am convinced that if we do not do that we are storing up medical problems for the future, including obesity and related diseases such diabetes appearing in young people and the increasing prevalence of osteoporosis in women — one in four Irish women are affected. Those problems can be addressed if there is an emphasis on physical education in schools and if funding is provided for the necessary equipment and human resources.

On Newstalk 106 last night Deputy Glennon and I agreed that where facilities are provided through national lottery funding, clubs that site their facility adjacent to or on a school ground should get priority. The facility could be used by a number of clubs which could draw their membership from the school and everyone would benefit. A total rethink is needed on the provision of facilities to favour locating them on or close to school grounds.

Drug testing has improved. Although the Olympic Games were marred by drug abuse and disqualifications, drugs are now being detected, which highlights the success of the procedures in place. Prior to this, drugs were not detected but it is clear that the current procedures are effective. This is positive because people were switching off from the Olympic Games, as noted by Deputy Glennon and me at a recent conference. The credibility of the games has been damaged and unless sport at that level is cleaned up, it will not have credibility. It is similar to betting on horses or greyhounds if one feels there are not true results.

There is an extensive agenda. Many are not interested in the work of the committee but I am glad representatives of the media have shown an interest by being present at the meeting. However, the committee, through our Chairman and those she invites to attend, is doing good work as regards focusing on current issues in sport. I hope this will influence future decision making and, when the Minister comes back to the committee, we will be able to influence policy by citing examples from various contributions made.

I thank Deputy Allen for appearing before the committee. It is important we get an overview of the beginning of the Sports Council, including input from Deputies Allen and McDaid and the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism, Deputy O'Donoghue.

Deputy Allen stated that because our population is small, the bucket of medals may never arrive. In trying to achieve that goal, there is a major problem in regard to those aged 16 to 20 years. Having gone through primary school, those of that age group will have played some sport, intensely in some instances. At under age level, there is a certain intensity because parents want their children to do well. One gets the impression that children are burned out at a very early age or lose interest because of the intensity of their efforts. Children do what their parents tell them. They must go to matches, training, etc., and this is now a major factor in the sports I follow. I notice a significant drop-off among young people. Clubs which have won championships with teams of 15 must now amalgamate to try to get players for the next age group. Given that this is combined with a huge drop in the number of volunteers, we must put in place a strategy for the future to overcome the problems.

When one considers the capital input in facilities, through lottery funding and otherwise, one must question how far we intend to go with this. If current trends continue, we will have to seriously consider diverting lottery funding to attract the right type of professional personnel to take over from volunteers. Otherwise, there will be a major problem for minority sports, from which come many of our Olympic hopefuls.

The drop in volunteers and the shortfall of athletes in the younger age category must be addressed. Many of the social problems encountered are among that age group. If a group of children standing on a corner are asked what they are doing, they will say they are bored and have nothing to do. When one looks around, one can see many major facilities into which money has been pumped, yet the young do not seem attracted to them. The questions must be asked, are children burnt out, do they play too much sport and what are the alternatives. What are Deputy Allen's views in this regard? Much of our future hopes lie with re-attracting the young into the sporting arena and encouraging minority and major sports.

In rural Ireland, many GAA clubs are under tremendous stress trying to survive. This includes my club, which won an under-16 championship after a replay with a neighbouring club. When that team went on to minor level, not alone was the club not able to field a team but, together with our neighbours and a third club, we found it difficult to field a team. This should have been our prime team but that was not the case. I am concerned and would like to hear Deputy Allen's views on whether these problems may have a bearing on the future policies of the Sports Council.

I welcome Deputy Allen. Unfortunately, I was held up and did not hear his contribution. However, I have a sense of it from the previous speakers. Deputy Deenihan and I spent three quarters of an hour on a radio programme last night discussing the funding of greyhound and horseracing. That was not the subject on which we went to be interviewed but that is the direction the discussion took. I should say to Labour Party colleagues that there was a particularly interesting intervention from a party member but I will tell them about it after the meeting.

I mention the discussion on horses and greyhounds because I want to approach this issue from a particular angle and would be interested to hear Deputy Allen's views, arising from his experience. There is a growing business element in sport. The business element, to which I refer in the context of rugby as the showbusiness end of the game, is draining resources from the grassroots of sport. The word "sport" as we knew it when growing up referred to ourselves and our peers all over the country kicking a ball around, getting on a bicycle, perhaps boxing and playing any kind of football we could. At the risk of being sexist, there was very little female participation in under age sport. We like to think we had a much happier and healthier childhood than the children of today.

I am most familiar with rugby and see it as a game in serious difficulty at club level. I attribute this entirely to the financial and human resources the professional game has taken out of sport. I see a huge fall-off in interest, and have referred to this publicly in regard to the Olympic Games. I was a sports nut all my life but could not tell the committee who won what at this year's Olympic Games. The Olympic Games have been tarnished and de Coubertin's Olympic ideal is gone with the wind. I understand golf is to be included shortly — tennis is already included. People running their own businesses use the Olympic Games which in turn use those people to generate massive funds. The spectre of drugs is everywhere. It is widespread throughout professional sport.

The captain of the English soccer team, apparently at the behest of his advisers, admitted taking a dive last Saturday in order not to have to go to some God forsaken place to play a match and captain his country. Twenty or 30 years ago I had a particular interest in what I always referred to as the noble art of boxing. I suspect that unless there was an Irish man boxing we could not now say who the heavyweight champion of the world is, whereas 20 or 30 years ago people could rattle them off for the previous 30 or 40 years. Everybody has lost faith in boxing because of the financial shenanigans going on.

Cycling was at an all-time high in Ireland 20 years ago through the exploits of Seán Kelly, Stephen Roche, Martin Earley and a few others, but it has been exposed as a drug riddled sport. Despite the protestations of the cycling authorities the battle has been lost because nobody believes it is drug free.

A couple of weeks ago I went to Croke Park for the all-Ireland women's football final between Galway and Dublin. I saw as good a sporting event as I have seen for a long time, with high levels of skill totally devoid of gamesmanship, where if somebody was injured they did not even contemplate taking a dive but got up as quickly as possible to see if they could run the injury off and, if not, they got attention two or three minutes later. The women involved had all the relevant skills. I could say the same about the camogie final which I watched on television.

Somewhere along the line the purity of sport as we knew it has been lost. This committee and the Department should address participation in all sports at grassroots level, be they minority or major sports, in every town and village throughout the country. We are in danger of losing sight of the importance of that to the welfare and health of the nation and of our young people. That is primarily what sport is about. We are in danger of losing it in favour of spending hundreds of millions of euro on a stadium at Lansdowne Road. The funding for that should more properly come from the budget of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. The stadium at Lansdowne Road is geared more for tourism and the showbusiness end of games than for sport for the hundreds of soccer players who play at the Fifteen Acres in the Phoenix Park. The money is going towards facilities for professional players. I would not deny them the money they earn. That is the market at work, and I wish them good luck, but we should not subsidise them with our sporting budget. Such funding should come from another budget because it is a different entity. It is not sport as we know it and as it should be known.

I am sorry if I am going about this in a very long-winded way. Let us support Lansdowne Road for role model, commercial and tourism reasons and for our standing internationally. However, it is not sport. That is the point I want to make and I would be very interested in hearing Deputy Allen's views on it. Funding for sport should be spent at grassroots level, on small sports entities in different parts of the country for the benefit of our youth. I would go so far as to say we should carefully examine the provision of more than one facility in an average sized town because too much time is taken up by clubs raising money and putting it into facilities in competition with other clubs in the same town. The under-16s to which Deputy Wall referred are neglected because the man or woman selling raffle tickets cannot also be out on the pitch looking after them and there is a major drain on resources.

That was fairly garbled but I hope the Deputy got the gist of it. I would be interested in hearing his comments.

I had an office fairly close to Deputy Allen's when he held the sports portfolio and I was always impressed by his enthusiasm and dedication to his brief. As has been said, he launched the sports strategy and got the Irish Sports Council moving on an informal basis, and that work has been built upon by others. I saw much of John Treacy in those days as he was around there. I compliment him on all he achieved at that stage and on holding his interest in the way he has.

A few points that have not been raised occurred to me. Osteoporosis is a complaint that affects mainly women — for every man affected, 20 women are affected. One interesting fact I discovered when I was in the Department of Health and Children is that women who are trained athletes do not get osteoporosis. That is another reason for women to participate in sport.

When I left national teacher training college in the mid-1960s there was a good physical education programme, which was based on an American programme, and it was structured to give the full range of exercises. For example, when one exercised the front one also exercised the back to include a full range of compensatory movements. In addition, the programme was designed so that children would enjoy it. That should be the basis of all sport in terms of participation, that children should enjoy it. I have seen parents exerting pressure on children at a young age to perform better, but that is counterproductive.

John Treacy made an interesting point when he was here last week. In terms of boxing he said that we had one boxer who qualified for the Olympic Games and the Irish Sports Council provided €885,000. In Britain £10 million was provided and it too had one boxer who qualified. John Treacy also made the point that since the break-up of the Soviet Union, many other countries are competing and boxers cannot have an endless number of bouts as they go from the beginning to the end. There must be a better way. I feel sad that Ireland and Britain had only one boxer each at the games. There are many boxers who do not reach the standards that are set and we need to loosen up in those areas so that there is wider participation.

Regarding the Abbotstown development, one aspect was lost sight of. That is the campus of sporting excellence. That was about having the headquarters of the national organisations located there and making available the very best of sports medicine, training and so on. That is an admirable objective and is important in terms of the development not alone of high level performers but of all performers.

When I was teaching, I took a BLE coaching course because from time to time I came across a youngster with a special talent in athletics who needed specific coaching. Take the example of the modern method of high jumping, the Fosbury flop. A high jumper should not lean into the bar until reaching the top and only then should he lean in to maximise the jump. This skill is one that causes problems for many competitors, even highly skilled ones. Teachers can acquire these skills and bring them to bear on youngsters.

The situation in national schools leaves much to be desired. A great deal of funding is required to reach the point where young people are provided for adequately. A start must be made and it must be done in a structured incremental way, to use the resources to the best effect. I look forward to seeing a structured programme with objectives at each step put in place by the Department.

When speaking to the late and great Waterford hurler, Mr. John Keane, he contrasted the dedication of his era to today's. When he was a schoolboy, those into hurling were on the pitch every day of the summer. The reason they were so skilful was due to their level of practice and it was reflected in their performances on the field.

Regarding recent events surrounding the horse Waterford Crystal, it has been claimed that minuscule residues of banned substances can give a positive reading. I understand that the drug administered in this case was a sedative and not a stimulant. Is there an element of overkill in the testing procedures? More information is needed to arrive at a decision in this case. However, while good progress in detection may have been made at one end, meaningless standards have been put in place that can be damaging. During this year's Olympic Games, Ireland had two doping incidents involving an athlete and the gold medal winner's horse. Little by little, the standing of sport in the eyes of young people is being undermined which will have a detrimental effect on their future participation. If participants in a sport do not enjoy it, they are in it for the wrong reason. It is a culture that needs to be examined.

I agree with many of the Deputy's points. We compiled a report on access to music in primary schools. While there was much support for access to music, many schools did not know about its availability. It is always assumed that it will cost money to deliver these facilities to primary schools. However, schemes such as Buntús are already available and these resources, knowledge and support must be better co-ordinated. Maeve Kyle told the committee that children up to ten years should be simply playing, not games and sport, just playing. She also informed the committee that grandparents play a large role in children's sports because parents tend to be too busy. Much of this can be done through co-ordinating what is already there as opposed to using financial resources.

There is a need for a national inventory of sports facilities. That was a proposal in the plan but I am not sure if it has been properly implemented as many schools have sports halls that can be classed as nine to four, five days a week facilities. An inventory will show what facilities are available and if they are being used to their maximum potential. It will also help in identifying impediments preventing facilities from being fully used. Facilities in schools should be shared with sports clubs and organisations.

I am conscious that several members of the committee have reached the top of their respective sports. There is an obsession with professional spectator sports and Deputy Glennon referred to the showbusiness side of it. Sport has been corrupted by the Sky Sports syndrome. Sky television, by dictating the days and times of matches, dictates people's behaviour in gearing their activities around match broadcasts. Most people watch matches while sitting in the pub.

Sport was corrupted the day Government began to interfere with sporting organisations and Mr. McManus offered €50 million. There was an agenda to build a stadium which would have become a white elephant, consuming €1.1 billion of taxpayers' money. The carrot was the €50 million from Mr. McManus and the agenda was for professional soccer. It dominated the debate on sport for two years and would have consumed all future resources for sport. As a result of this interference, the FAI's project was torpedoed and, I believe, Croke Park would have been opened to other games by now. Sporting organisations should be left to deal with their own affairs. It only causes problems when politicians interfere by way of decisions and giving carrots to such organisations. We must return to the principles and objectives of the national plan for sport.

Clubs are struggling to survive while Ireland pretends it is a world power in sport. It angers me that we aspire to be such when we cannot even get the basics right. Boxing is one of the best sports for instilling discipline in young people. Boxing clubs are doing this needed task mainly in deprived areas, but they receive a pittance in funding and some clubs have closed. One club I know, which trained and produced Olympians, has almost gone out of existence because it does not have a club room. That is where sport is taking the wrong turn. Until such time that is dealt with, we will never have success at international level.

I referred to the Sky Sports syndrome and the national inventory of sport, and Deputy O'Shea spoke about women and health problems. I have three daughters. In the summer months, there are some facilities for young men but there are few for young women. We said we would look at impediments to women in sport. I know Deputy Glennon did some work on that, as did the Sports Council of Ireland. It is only being addressed now. Women have been treated shabbily in regard to sport. Camogie and women's football are coming to the fore but at grassroots level women are the forgotten people.

In 1997, as Minister of State with responsibility for sport, I indicated that I was in favour of taking the funding of organisations out of the hands of the Minister of the day and giving it to the Sports Council of Ireland once it had been set up on a statutory basis. It has now been set up on a statutory basis. It is independent and has its mission statement. Why not give it the role of allocation of funding in accordance with its mission statement and that of the Department? Until that happens, there will be massive destruction of sports organisations and in sporting infrastructure. Any Government which does that will be doing sport a great service.

Deputy Wall spoke about the pressure on young people. I agree that young people blossom and show great potential but some are burned out by 15 or 16 years of age. In 1995, there was controversy about child abuse in sport. The Department produced a report, codes of practice for persons dealing with young people in sport, which was drawn up as a result of allegations of abuse in swimming, but it developed into a broader document and placed responsibilities on organisations to appoint an officer to ensure safeguards and procedures were in place.

One of the issues was bullying in sport. As Deputy Wall rightly said, much of the bullying comes from the side lines. I go to under age matches and I see some people roaring at young people saying they are fools and so on. That has the cumulative effect of forcing young people out of sport. If they do not reach the top, they see themselves as failures and they go elsewhere. That is why they are burned out. I wish the codes of practice were implemented in that regard also, namely, the attitude of coaches, although 90% are dedicated. Often pressure comes from parents, not coaches. Unless one succeeds and reaches the top, one is a failure and people just drift away.

I echo what I said earlier, that we must go back to the core principles as set out. I disagreed with the proposal to take sport from the Department of Education and Science and move it to the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism. I disagreed with that before 1997 and when it happened in 1997, but I agreed with the proposal to appoint a senior Minister. A clear message was sent out when sport was moved from the Department of Education and Science, that sport was seen as a way of promoting Ireland, in other words, the emphasis was on high quality sport at the highest level. The question of the interlink between education and sport was being eroded.

The same applies to the Arts Council, etc. This is an argument we have had. Arts and sport are caught in a bind in that they have, or should have, an intrinsic link with education. If that is not the case, we face a serious problem. The Deputy has been in charge and people on both sides of the fence, civil servants and those looking on, will say there are too many hats and people are not prepared to take the hats off. The structures are not such that we can blend budgets. From his experience, does Deputy Allen think that can be overcome? As it stands, sport is covered by two Departments. Does the Deputy think that the bureaucracy can be overcome and that the two heads can meet? The blend is between the Departments of Arts, Sport and Tourism, Education and Science and Health and Children.

It comes back to administrative turf wars. When we attempted to set up an organisation outside the Department of Education and Science and the Civil Service, in other words, the statutory Sports Council which would develop all these issues of links into education, tourism and health, there was opposition and impediments were put in place of setting up such a council.

The links between the Arts Council and the Department of Education and Science are infrequent. Does the Deputy agree there is a difficulty?

The development of sport in recent years has been hindered by the great debate about the major capital projects. The debate about the Olympic Games will go on for decades unless we get back to the basic principles. The Department should feed its principles or policies into the Sports Council. A strong independent council will deliver if it is allowed to do so. While the funding remains with the political head——

I beg to throw a spanner in the works by saying that everybody will argue that nobody is fair, that the Sports Council of Ireland, the Arts Council and the Minister are not fair. One can go round and round.

I am not talking about this Minister, but any Minister. Unless the council is given powers to allocate finance, it can only do a certain amount.

I thank Deputy Allen. I do not know whether it was his intention but he stated that as far as he was concerned — he should correct me if I am wrong — sport was corrupted when an individual made an offer of €50 million towards the building of the sports stadium. I do not whether that is what he intended to say but it is unfair on a number of fronts. It is very unfair to the individual concerned. To me it is a distortion of reality, but that is an issue for another day. I understand the individual concerned has recently made a "no strings attached" donation of €5 million to his local county board and is well known for his charitable work around the country and for the investment he has made, at considerable expense, in the horseracing industry. It is grossly unfair to everybody concerned to say sport in Ireland was corrupted by that donation. On the issue of corruption in sport, I would go back to the time advertising was allowed around football grounds. That was the first money that came into it. Television probably corrupted sport in that regard but that is an issue for another day. Deputy Allen should be given a chance to clarify the allegation of corruption with that offer.

I think Deputy Allen referred to the Sky television network, not to Abbotstown. He can answer for himself about what he said regarding Abbotstown, that it was an effort to introduce professional sport to this country.

I am not saying the individual had any intention of corrupting sport. The individual is involved in sport. He has his views about sport and sees it as a business. He is a sportsman cum businessman. I assume the offer was made for the best business and sporting reasons but the effect of that €50 million, which was a lovely carrot, was that proposals for a stadium at Abbotstown were developed. It was originally estimated the project would cost some €250 million but an Oireachtas committee examination of the proposal in September 2000 revealed that if the project were to be completed it would cost €1.2 billion. People thought we were off the wall at the time when some of us estimated what it would cost.

What I said is that the whole debate about sport centred around Abbotstown. Eircom Park, in effect, was sabotaged. That is my opinion and I am entitled to it. The agenda centred around the construction of a national stadium. The GAA was made an offer on the eve of a major strategic decision regarding the use of Croke Park, which had an effect. I was asked for my view and that is it. I have clarified that it was not the individual but the effect of the offer that saw us focus on an obsession with super stadiums when we could not build a club dressing room in a parish down the country, and we still cannot. There is no reflection on the individual and I am sorry if that impression was given.

I am glad Deputy Allen clarified that because, as far as I am concerned, he gave a different impression when he named Mr. McManus, which was not wise. I wonder what his position would be——

I do not think the name was used.

Mr. McManus's name was used. I am glad Deputy Allen clarified the remark because it is a well known fact what Mr. McManus's trust has done in the Munster region. He also donated €5 million to set up the Jim Kemmy Business School at the University of Limerick. The €5 million he donated to the Limerick GAA has already been mentioned.

The issue of lottery funding was raised. As I understand, the allocation of lottery funding now is different to when it was managed by Deputy Allen. In his time, he had sole discretion as to where funding was allocated. I understand each application is now assessed on its merits and we can find out the grounds on which allocations are made. That is a fair way. I have not seen the Minister interfering. I would have liked if certain clubs had received lottery funding but they did not qualify for various reasons, the most obvious one being the lack of a 30% local contribution. The Minister or nobody else can do anything about that. I would not agree with Deputy Allen on the distribution of lottery funding.

I welcome the former Minister with responsibility for sport. It was only right and proper that a Minister for sport was appointed. Abbotstown should have gone ahead. People should have had a national stadium in which they could aspire to play. Instead of spending two years debating the reasons it should not go ahead we should have focused on the reasons it should have gone ahead.

Regarding the Irish performance in Athens, until we provide a national stadium we will not get anywhere. It is time to think of the bigger picture and move forward. We are entitled to a national stadium and we deserve one. Participants in sport deserve a national stadium in which they can aspire to perform. Instead of us having to watch our best international sports people on television performing in stadiums around the world they should perform at home in front of Irish people, who should get a chance to see them perform here. If people object to a stadium at Abbotstown I propose Longford as an alternative site. It would be an ideal location for it and we would have plenty of room.

Flancare Park.

I could offer a much better cross-Border facility in Donegal. We will return to the former Minister for a final comment.

The Minister administers lottery funding. His officials make recommendations but he makes the decisions based on the parameters set out in the application forms. In my time the system was similar. The civil servants made recommendations but the Minister decided. The only point I make is that the Sports Council whose job it is to implement policy should be the body that administers funds. I am not making a political point. All Ministers, including me, came under political pressure to make certain allocations. That is a fact of public life and we would be naïve to think otherwise.

It was different when Deputy Allen was Minister.

I do not want to get into a political discussion. I could give many examples of recent allocations but I will not.

The Deputy is entitled to his opinion. We will meet the Arts Council this evening where there will be more arguments about which way funding went or did not go in that field.

I thank Deputy Allen for his contribution to the committee and for his continuing interest in sport.

I remind members we have a meeting at 4.15 p.m. today with the Arts Council. The chairperson of the council will attend as will the writer John McGahern. Senator McHugh may be happy we have another famous face appearing before us.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.20 a.m. until 4.15 p.m. on Wednesday, 13 October 2004.

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