JOINT COMMITTEE ON ARTS, SPORT, TOURISM, COMMUNITY, RURAL AND GAELTACHT AFFAIRS debate -
Wednesday, 13 Oct 2004

Arts Council: Presentation.

Chairman

I welcome our guests from the Arts Council, Ms Olive Braiden, chairperson, Ms Mary Cloake, director, the programme director, Mr. John O'Kane and Mr. John McGahern.

It is timely in the context of so much that is taking place within the Arts Council, that the committee has this opportunity to meet the delegation. Coming up to the time when Estimates are being pulled together I hope there is an opportunity for the Arts Council to put its case.

Theatre Forum came before the committee recently with the economic impact of the professional performing arts in Ireland, which was an important step from our perspective, in that everyone wants to impress on the Minister for Finance the importance of the arts, as opposed to the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism. Usually an economic methodology is employed for this. When Theatre Forum came before us the committee asked if it could present the economic argument and the delegation said it was in the process of being done. I do not know whether the delegates have been presented with a copy yet, but it is an important document.

In the context of the Arts Council and its strategy for the development of the arts in the Gaeltacht and the recently published one on the traditional arts, I am sure there is sufficient impact there for any Estimates, quite apart from day to day expenditure and the work that the council wants to do. I ask Ms Braiden to make the presentation.

Ms Olive Braiden

I thank the Chairman and the committee for inviting us today. We will gladly answer any questions members may have. To begin, I will introduce my colleagues. Ms Mary Cloake has recently been appointed director of the Arts Council. Members will know Mr. John McGahern as a renowned writer. Mr. John O'Kane is in charge of the arts grants programme in the Arts Council. I intend to make some opening remarks and then allow my colleagues to contribute.

It has been a very busy and challenging year for the Arts Council as we continue to support and sell our cultural diversity. This year has convinced me more than ever of the extraordinary contribution the arts and cultural activity has made to the fabric of our society. I am further convinced of the enormous latent potential of Ireland's arts sector.

As members will know, there has been much public debate recently about the notion of quality of life. As citizens, our engagement with cultural life when we are both young and old adds significantly to the quality of life. The lives of our children and young people are enriched greatly through engagement with the arts. A young person who has access to culture in all its manifestations will have a richer life and be better equipped to grapple with the challenges of adulthood.

Culture is part of our wealth as a nation. It is part of what makes us what we are and at a time when other pressures serve to erode communities, culture can serve to bind us together. Material wealth is one barometer of success but providing a proper infrastructure for the arts is another important barometer.

We need an infrastructure that allows for access to the arts for all, one that nourishes our talents, harnesses the economic potential of the artistic sector and increases further the international success of Irish art and artists. We are very ambitious for the arts in Ireland and we know the cultural endeavour that can be achieved if they are harnessed.

When I met this committee last year I stressed our commitment to the geographical equality of the arts. As a country person I acknowledged the perception that the arts were seen as a metropolitan elite but that is changing dramatically. It has changed for the better, even in one year, with the significant growth in local arts centres and regional theatres. I am sure the members will be aware of such activity in their own constituencies.

Yesterday, in association with Údarás, we launched our policy for the arts in a Gaeltacht area in Spiddal where there is a rich vein of cultural endeavour but if the arts are to play their full role in maintaining Gaeltacht communities, the work of Údarás in supporting the arts needs to be extended. A proper regional spread of cultural amenities, to which I referred earlier, is an important part of the infrastructure of the arts. Maintaining the current network of amenities and developing new facilities for the future requires adequate resources. We need to realise the full potential of the arts and match that with meaningful resources to achieve our vision.

If we are to provide stability to the sector and ensure it achieves its potential, additional funding is critical. As it stands now, the whole sector is creaking at the seams. We need to maintain the existing arts sector and begin to realise the full potential of the arts with the funding we are requesting this year of €68 million.

Many members on the Arts Council and many other groups are of the view that we should demand much more money this year but we believe this is a fair proposal and I hope the members will accept it as such. Innovation is critical to artistic endeavour and we need to turn that creativity into reality. There is no shortage of artistic creativity and diversity in Ireland but we need to unlock that potential, which is enormous. Funding is required to do that.

I appreciate that the members are mindful of all the demands for public expenditure but I hope they are mindful also of the contribution of the arts to us all and to the enormous potential that remains untapped. I will pass over to Mr. John McGahern.

Mr. John McGahern

I do not have very much to say except to support everything that Ms Braiden said. Only a fool would claim the arts are as necessary as, say, health but it is a hidden resource that, like strength, defines the spiritual well-being of a society. It is perhaps all that defines it and eventually survives it.

As a surprise member of the Arts Council I would be seen in the country as a poacher turned gamekeeper. I get angry letters from writers and arts organisations throughout the country, which are very moving. They all need small amounts of money that they cannot get but which would make a great difference to them.

Later this evening I will launch Patrick Kavanagh's collected poems in the Guinness Storehouse. Kavanagh's poems define us as a nation. They are a deep resource and an ornament yet because the arts are hidden, like inner strength, it was chancy that those important poems got written. One of the reasons they got written was that the Archbishop of Dublin visited Kavanagh in the cancer hospital, thought he was finished and gave him a job in UCD, to which a small stipend attached but that he did not think he would be well enough to take. Only for that small amount of money those extraordinary canal bank poems might never have been written. Those poems are part of the nation and a major resource but because that resource is hidden it cannot be easily justified in terms of funding compared to the health, education and other sectors. It is not as immediately important, and only a fool would say it is, but it may be all that survives us.

Ms Braiden

I will now ask Ms Mary Cloake to outline the rationale for the reason we are requesting €68 million this year and why it is so important that we get that funding if we are to keep the arts surviving as they are currently.

Ms Mary Cloake

To illustrate the level of activity on the ground and the need for extra funding for the arts, I will give a short factual background on the Arts Council, its work and the figures involved.

The increased spending in the arts over the past five years is very welcome but once inflation and cost increases are taken into account arts organisations, that are very labour intensive and therefore costly, have become chronically under-funded and are struggling to maintain their levels of activities and services even though they have a high level of voluntary commitment.

As members of the committee can see from the figures we provided in the pack, the major flagship organisations in the arts including the Abbey Theatre, the Druid Theatre Company in Galway, the Irish Chamber Orchestra in Limerick and other such organisations have sustained a reduction in public subsidy of almost 20%, or one fifth, over the past five years. That in turn has an effect on the organisations' potential to earn their own income at the box office. Effectively, these organisations are now in a downward spiral.

Despite this reduction in public funding the level of activity in the arts throughout the country has continued to increase. Everyone will agree there has been an explosion in activity at local level. The Arts Council has not been able to keep up with this. Tangible evidence of this activity is the number of new and refurbished arts venues around the country. This year the council received 80 applications from venues, namely, arts centres, theatres and galleries, which is four times the applications we would have received ten years ago. We have not been able to give support to any of these new and refurbished buildings. One example is the Axis Centre in Ballymun, which has a very fine programme and building but we cannot support it.

To function effectively an arts venue needs support from the local authority and direct support of at least €100,000 from the Arts Council. In order to provide theatre shows, exhibitions and concerts the Arts Council needs to make a parallel investment of €100,000 per venue into arts production. Each of those 80 venues requires increased spending of €200,000 per unit. Theatre and music organisations that create shows cannot afford the costs of touring to venues so although the venues exist they are often dark. Many production companies are also limited by the funds available to them to produce one show a year. Increasing funding to theatre companies by one third would give them the marginal costs of producing an extra show and result in doubling of productivity that would represent good value for public investment. An extra third into the theatre sector would double the output.

The figures we receive in the form of requests for funding indicate the level of activity on the ground. We have demand of €96 million for support from large and small organisations, schools, communities, and individual artists. Mr. McGahern spoke about the people who write to him. Of 1,500 individual artists who typically approach the Arts Council every year with ideas, proposals and projects the council can respond to only one third, that is 500 artists. As a result 1,000 artists working in studios, communities and theatres, all with worthy and sometimes very exciting ideas, have no money to realise them. A similar trend can be seen in demand from schools. For example, the council operates a writers in schools scheme with Poetry Ireland. Generally, the programme receives 900 requests for a writer's visit or residency every year. This year the response was to support 270 of those requests, less than one third. That leaves 600 schools and writers whose desire to meet and work together has been frustrated through lack of resources.

That picture applies across all the programmes we offer. Last year the amount of money we were able to give represented 60% of the demand from organisations. We received proposals worth €1.6 million from the small festivals programme last year and were able to respond with total grant aid of €240,000. The programme funds a great deal of grass roots activity around the country. The documents we have furnished to the committee are full of information, statistics and reports that highlight activity in the Gaeltacht, activities by young people, proposals for professional dance development and the traditional arts. We hope these will be of value in further elaborating the serious trend of our inability to respond to activities on the ground in other areas. We will be happy to respond to questions on any of those figures.

Ms Braiden

We kept our presentations brief to allow as much time as the committee needs for questions. John O'Kane can answer any specific questions on funding to organisations.

Chairman

It is great that there is so much going on. The council is a victim of its own success, or the success of the country. Two weeks ago representatives from Theatre Forum said that in 2004 there was extra profile for the arts because of the European Presidency and other issues, and that next year the arts would not be in the forefront of people's minds. However, with Cork as European Capital of Culture in 2005 they might stay in people's minds. I assume the Arts Council sees no reason 2005 will be any different if not even better than 2004.

This day last week I could have seen The Tinker’s Weddingand The Well of the Saints in Dublin but I saw the same productions in the Grianán in Letterkenny. It is important that geographical spread continues. I saw Carry on Moulin Rouge and a Brian Friel play over the weekend in Culdaff, a little place that few people know but which has a great venue. When people arrive they marvel at it. The facilities exist but it is a question of getting people to the venues.

Do we do enough cross-budgeting? For example, Mr. McGahern mentioned that the arts are not as important as health but if a child or adult expresses himself or herself through the arts, whether in writing, music, dance or whatever, maybe he or she will not need the doctor. The head might be cleared on the principle that prevention is better than the cure. The orchestras that are under pressure could travel. For example, an orchestra of 100 people divided into 33 groups of 3 could visit 33 primary schools to encourage the schoolchildren and their parents to come to the concert afterwards. In that way they could draw large crowds rather than a small élite at a concert.

We should do much more in the way of seeking matching funds across the budgets of the various Departments for example, education or health. We spoke about that this morning in the context of sports. Many committee members will protest at all the reports and ask what is the point of having bundles of reports if there is no money. That will come up in the Estimates and the Arts Council may or may not get enough money. The last report covered the policy for the traditional arts where there is a promise that a traditional arts officer will be appointed. Is that a guarantee and is it dependent on the Estimates or will it happen anyway? How does the council deal with the balance between the two thirds of people disappointed, those who always get funding, and those who apply each year?

Deputy Deenihan

I welcome our four visitors today and congratulate Mary Cloake on being appointed Director of the Arts Council. She brings with her considerable experience that will stand to her in the challenging times ahead. She is a very popular choice overall within the arts community and I am confident she has the capacity and ability to do a very good job. That, however, depends on the funding the council receives.

I also welcome Ms Braiden. Last year we had a very frank discussion when the situation was rather different. Ms Braiden was here at a time when the council's budget had been considerably reduced when it needed €52 million. She said that approximately 1,000 jobs were lost in the sector because of the decrease in funding. The sector is still reeling from that reduction. The funding was brought up to €52 million or €53 million last year. The Arts Council is now looking for a substantial increase of about €15 million. I am sure all members of the committee will support it in that. Even with such an increase the council will be unable to adequately fund many organisations. It is heartening that so much arts activity it taking place throughout the country. We should all be pleased that this is happening. However, that enthusiasm can go sour and people can become frustrated unless a source of funding exists for programmes, education, etc. I hope the existing enthusiasm will continue. This will depend on the resources and help made available.

The appointment of county arts officers has really brought the arts to a local level and the involvement of local authorities, of which most members of the committee were members in the past, has helped considerably in the promotion of the arts in recent years. We have many local authorities but only one arts council. Local authorities have probably had a greater influence in the proliferation of the arts across the country than the Arts Council. The local authorities' arts offices should be funded as much as possible by the local authorities, which would take pressure off the Arts Council. For this reason a strong case could have been made for having a standing committee in local authorities as had been proposed in the Arts Bill.

I have a number of specific questions, some of which have already been answered. Last year I remember Ms Braiden saying she would undertake an overview of all the centres throughout the country, which she has done. At the time she mentioned that it would require 10% of the cost of a centre to operate it. Unless centres throughout the country that were established under the various programmes since the mid-1990s are funded and get direct support they will close. I am not scaremongering or being alarmist in this.

We must realise that given that they were started with Government money they will need Government money to sustain them. We are getting back considerably more than we are putting in based on the level of volunteerism. This local effort in the community means so much in defining us in terms of the community, the county and the nation. The amount of money invested in the arts is put into perspective when we consider the Estimates and how much money is spent in various other sectors. We must convince the decision makers that this is an area of priority and high dividend. Important social capital is involved. It will need to be prioritised in the upcoming Estimates process.

I do not exaggerate when I say touring companies are in crisis. There are very few tours. While the Abbey Company toured with The Playboy of the Western World this year, it is unlikely to come to a place like Kerry. When did the Druid Company tour last? I recently went to the Abbey Theatre and was glad to see it feature The Dandy Dolls by George Fitzmaurice. When I suggested bringing that play down to where it came from in north Kerry, I was told it would cost about €20,000. The resources simply do not exist to do this. What is the role of the Arts Council in supporting touring groups? Has it the resources to fund them? What priority or importance does it attach to such activity? We have many centres throughout the country with no performances taking place. As Ms Cloake said, they will be in the dark with no lights on. This is a very important issue.

Many centres have been built having been underwritten by local authorities with EU money but have no programming budgets of their own. It is impossible for them to put on programmes. Ms Cloake has said that to function effectively an arts venue needs direct support from the local authority and support of at least €100,000 from the Arts Council, and that the Arts Council needs to make a parallel investment of €100,000 per venue in arts production. What will be the role of the Arts Council in helping local centres with their programmes? Those centres are totally under funded at the moment.

When representatives from the Arts Council appeared before the committee last year we discussed The Arts Plan 2002 — 2006. We all welcomed the Government's financial commitment in An Agreed Programme for Government. We condemned the Government as it failed to fund it accordingly. Since then the arts plan has been scrapped. Why was it scrapped? Why was it not measuring up? The director subsequently resigned from her position. The witnesses might tell us about the new plan and the new set of priorities. I understand that a consultation period will continue until next June, which is a long time. Widespread consultation took place before establishing the previous arts plan, which was scrapped, and that information should be still available. Surely a new plan could be established before June, perhaps by February or March.

Two weeks ago representatives from Theatre Forum appeared before the committee. They emphasised the lack of professional training in the arts, which is leading to poorer quality. They spoke about technical areas such as lighting, set design and production management, which are very important if we want to move on to another level. Does the Arts Council have any responsibility in addressing these deficiencies and if not who should have the responsibility?

The Anna Livia International Opera Festival was previously funded to the tune of €500,000 by the Department of Education and Science. However, the former Minister for Education and Science scrapped the funding. Opera must be supported. In the distant past we had an opera house but this is no longer the case. We seem to have regressed regarding opera. While I do not have any great interest in opera, I notice such matters. I understand funding for this will now come from the Arts Council. While the witnesses might not be in a position to say how the Council would prioritise opera, perhaps they might refer to it in general.

The Arts Council has a report on professional dance. Ballet Ireland lost almost its entire budget in 2003. It got absolutely nothing, as far as I recall. I do not know whether that improved last year. I ask the council to outline its proposals in the area of ballet and professional dance.

I would like to discuss the Arts Act 2003, which is most important. I am not sure about the quality of the debate on the Bill, but the discussion was quite broad-ranging and continued for a long time. The provisions in the area of traditional arts were the subject of much debate at the time. The Bill involved the establishment of a standing committee on the traditional arts. Opposition Deputies generally accepted that it was a good idea to establish such a committee, although we were concerned that it would be difficult to integrate its work with that of the Arts Council. We were worried that the proposed standing committee, which was to have the power to make recommendations about funding, might in some way upset the cohesiveness of the Arts Council.

The Minister announced to the media last year that he intended to establish a special committee to investigate the traditional arts. A recent newspaper report stated that a five-member committee had been established. I understand two members of the committee disagreed with the report's findings, which had been agreed by a majority on the committee. I understand the two members in question produced a minority report, which was also presented to the Arts Council. Is the minority report now a public document?

I wish to address the most important aspect of this matter by quoting accurately from a press release issued by the two members in question. The representatives of the Arts Council may respond to it. The press release stated:

However, the majority report circulated for the Arts Council meeting in September 2004 was not the version agreed at the final meeting of the special committee. The circulated majority report had been altered significantly.

If the report was not reconsidered by the entire committee, who agreed to make the changes? Why were the changes made? I understand the recommendations on education, for example, were totally rewritten and considerably changed. I ask the representatives of the Arts Council to refer to that and to the report itself. I understand that the changed version of the report was presented to the Minister. The version of the report presented to the Minister was not that agreed by the standing committee. Two members of the committee were not aware of the contents of the final report to be sent to the Minister.

While it may not be the committee's business to examine the workings of the Arts Council, it should be stressed that the traditional arts mean a great deal for everyone in this room, from both urban and rural backgrounds. It may be more meaningful for those of us from rural areas, but the traditional arts are not entirely the preserve of rural Ireland. That they are making great progress in rural areas can be seen in Dublin. It may be appropriate for our guests to explain why the changes were made.

It is great that representatives of the Arts Council are present at this meeting. These are critical times for the council and the arts in general. I hope this discussion will help us to put more pressure on the Minister. I intend to ask a priority question on this matter during Question Time next week. I will ask the Minister if he intends to provide the €69 million sought by the Arts Council. I will make the case for providing the funds.

Deputy Wall

I welcome the representatives of the Arts Council. I congratulate Ms Mary Cloake on her appointment and wish her well in her new role.

The Labour Party will support the Arts Council's attempt in its budget submission to receive as much funding as possible from the Minister for Finance. I hope the council achieves the goals it has outlined in the figures it has presented to the committee. It is impossible to divide the cake in a way that prevents people from complaining. It is impossible to satisfy everyone. I hope there will be many arguments about the distribution of funds on budget day in the first week of December. I hope the Arts Council will be able to allocate the appropriate grants its representatives have spoken about today.

I will not speak again about the many issues raised by Deputy Deenihan. There is a need for an active theatre circuit in rural Ireland, but it does not seem to be happening at present. Although there are many amateur festivals, we do not seem to be able to sustain the continuity which is necessary if we are to facilitate a thriving national theatre circuit. When one examines the local newspapers, it is clear that we are not using the many wonderful theatres to the best of our ability. Such facilities should be used to the maximum possible extent by those involved in drama and other forms of art. Ms Olive Braiden spoke about the geographical spread of forms of art. The problems in that regard are most evident when one reflects on the absence of an active nationwide theatre circuit. I hope the Arts Council can examine such problems.

I am convinced to this day that the advent of television ruined rural Ireland. If I had my way, I would put a boot or a book through the television found in the corner of every room. Television has destroyed much of the active participation in the arts in rural areas. It has acted as a hindrance to the development of drama and the traditional arts, the success of which often depends on volunteers. The art of conversation and the promotion of neighbourliness seem to have been impeded by the advent of television.

I accept that certain forms of television, such as soap operas and drama programmes, can play a part in the promotion of drama. Not enough time is allocated on Irish television channels to home-produced drama and the traditional arts. I compliment TG4, which often broadcasts programmes about traditional arts. It seems to have a greater interest in such forms of art than other Irish channels. It is important that it should continue to produce such programmes.

I thank Ms Olive Braiden for the briefing documents she has given the committee this afternoon. It is important that bodies such as the Arts Council should present their cases well. It is obvious that that has been done in this instance. Members of the committee will attempt to follow up many of the suggestions made, for example by asking parliamentary questions or raising issues during Adjournment debates. The Arts Council's presentation has given the committee food for thought.

I share Deputy Deenihan's concern about the Government's policy on the traditional arts. The relevant committee now seems to have a different structure. As someone who loves the traditional arts, I consider it to be imperative for the nation that we bring these problems to an end. I hope Ms Braiden will try to bring the two reports — I do not mind if there is a majority or a minority — to fruition at the earliest opportunity. A single report should be produced at the end of the day to see how the Arts Council can deal with that.

After fighting so hard for this to be done we do not want fragmentation. That would be to the detriment of the initial idea regarding the traditional arts. My colleague, Deputy O'Shea, and I will do everything in our power to support the committee in the budget submissions. We are always available if there is any way in which the committee considers we might be able to supplement the work of the Chairman, who has allowed every opportunity for the arts to be discussed here. If there is anything that the individual parties can do, we will not be found wanting in that regard. I hope that an effort will be made to provide a theatre circuit. The educational link with the schools is of major significance, and I hope that what seems to be disagreement can be addressed and that the traditional arts sector of the Arts Council can move forward as a unit.

Chairman

I will put that back on the agenda since there has been a great deal of comment. A number of questions have arisen and the witnesses may take them in whichever order they choose.

Ms Braiden

My colleague will deal with most questions, and I will deal with the question on the traditional arts.

Ms Cloake

I will respond to the questions in reverse order, taking Deputy Wall's questions first. He is right about the need for a theatre circuit around the country, which is a very high priority for us. If there are good facilities, venues and resources in the theatre touring circuit generally, they could include both amateur and professional circuits.

The Deputy's comments on television are well observed. The question of home-produced drama and traditional arts coverage, as well as arts coverage generally on RTE, is one about which we have been talking for a while. We were recently able to launch a new initiative named Documenting the Arts. I hope that, as a result of that partnership, the extent of arts programming on RTE will improve in the long term.

The Deputy raised a very interesting point on volunteering. It seems to me that a great deal of the demand coming through to the Arts Council is arriving because the extent of volunteering that people are able to provide in this modern society is much less than perhaps 25 years ago. In part, the increased demand for the arts is coming through because people now need to be paid for things to when they would previously have been able to give their time for free. That is part of the demand.

One of the big challenges facing us also relates to Deputy Deenihan's question. The new plan would be to ask what we can do and what kinds of supports the Arts Council can provide to help voluntary effort sustain itself. It is not always a question of simply replacing a volunteer with a professional but of helping to support the volunteer in his or her work.

Deputy Deenihan had seven issues, which I will address in order. There is no question but that he is right that grassroots activity is very much influenced by the local authority network. We are very proud that we consider the local authority network to have been supported by us for a long time now. We are reaching a stage when the local authority is taking the lead in local arts development. However, they still need resources and both funds and advice from us at various points in their development. The consolidation of the relationship with local authorities to bring it onto a new level is one of our priorities.

The Deputy asked what role we had in supporting touring groups and how we could help venues with their programmes. The local authority partnership is very important here. Our ideal scenario would be that the Arts Council and the local authority should be partners, with the local authority coming in with support for the operating costs of the venues, including the day-to-day administration costs. The Arts Council would provide a broadly equivalent amount in a 50-50 deal, though that might vary. The Arts Council would support the artistic programming. That is how we view matters. In supporting the artistic programme of the venue, we would give advice as well as money. That is an important role that we envisage for ourselves.

Touring is certainly something that we must address. It is very expensive. I believe that the estimate of €20,000 for bringing The Dandy Dolls to Kerry is probably far too low. We are talking about a large organisation such as the Abbey Theatre. It costs a great deal these days to move people and equipment and present shows to a high standard. That is one area where additional investment is essential.

We have taken our time over the new arts strategy. One of the big trends one notices in the Arts Council is how it has prioritised its resources. At different times, the council has been closer to the arts community or to the Government. One of the big ambitions that we have for the new strategy is that it is not simply an arts plan for the Arts Council but a strategy for the whole arts community so that when we come to the Government with our new programme, we can do so ad idem with all those individual artists and arts organisations, large and small. We want to be able to say to the Minister of the day that we have a strategy for the arts into which everyone can buy. That is why we are taking our time over the nine-month period. I certainly hope it will have been worthwhile.

There is no question that professional training is necessary for the theatre sector. We started discussions with the Abbey about some training in the area of technical skills. We have professional development and training grants which enable people to go abroad, but training has to be provided in this country, and that is something that we will be examining.

Before turning to opera I might perhaps skip to dance, which is one of the areas where we have been studying professional development and training with some success. If the members look at our report, they will see that it is about making opportunities for young people while still at school to start professional dance training. In recent years, many of our young people have travelled to places as far away as Perm in Russia to train at the age of 11. One can imagine the trauma of a child going to Russia at that age and leaving his or her family. Some very talented people are now returning in their 20s, but we do not want the next generation of dancers to have to do that. We have focused on professional training in dance because the age at which people must decide to take it up is so low that it can be personally traumatic for them. We have started with dance, but we will move on to theatre as the next step.

We have an opera policy paper coming out soon. It will be before the council for discussion in November. It is a large and expensive area requiring very sensitive policies from the Arts Council. It is possible that the provision of an opera house might be addressed through other investment via planning, urban development and so on, but we will have a very clear policy to guide our opera decisions this year. The questions regarding the Anna Livia Festival will be taken under that new policy.

I will ask Ms Braiden to comment on all the traditional arts questions together. To address the Chair's question, the partnership programmes are very important. Cross-budgeting with health, education and local development have been priorities for a long time. However, the early stages of forging partnerships and ensuring that both parties fully understand where they are going with the arts in local development, health and education are not a cost-free exercise, and if we are to achieve good value for cross-budgeting in future, we must invest in the partnerships now. Deputy Deenihan has said how successful the local authority partnership is, but that took years of money and time. If we are to do the same with health and education, we need resources. However, there is no question that it is a most effective use of public funds.

We do not have sanction from the Department of Finance to fund the post of a traditional arts officer. Within the next two weeks there will be advertisements in the newspapers for the immediate recruitment of a traditional arts specialist. That will be a two-year post and we hope that within that time we will get approval from the Department of Finance for the appointment of a traditional arts officer. As for dealing with the two thirds of writers and artists who are disappointed, I can only leave that to Deputy Deenihan.

Ms Braiden

As the committee is aware, during the passage of the Arts Bill through the Houses there was very active and comprehensive discussion on the traditional arts and their future, with many ideas proposed. The legislation allowed for the establishment of a special committee, which has now been set up. We were delighted with that because as everyone knows, the traditional arts were greatly neglected by the Arts Council in terms of funding over the years.

During the committee meetings I was aware that there was difficulty in coming to agreement, which regularly happens on committees, where people feel very strongly. Finally, the report presented to the Arts Council on the day was the main report. It was warmly welcomed by the Arts Council member, presented to the Minister and endorsed. The title is Towards a Policy for Traditional Arts, which is the policy we are working on, using that report. We have asked for further submissions and it is open to all to guide and help us while we devise the policy.

The report has been warmly welcomed by those involved in traditional arts around the country. On the day we presented it to the Minister, and when he endorsed it, we had a very warm welcome for it in the Arts Council involving traditional artists from all over the country. As Ms Cloake said, we agreed to acquire a traditional arts officer. That is what we plan to do, but it is hard to imagine that it takes so long to get Department of Finance sanction for another member of staff. In the meantime we will straightaway recruit a traditional arts specialist so that we can do the work we promised to do.

Chairman

Ms Braiden's comments on volunteering tie in with what others have said, namely, that we need to provide an economic argument as to why volunteering should be supported. We are currently concluding a report on that issue which will be available before the middle of November. That might be of interest to the witnesses.

Regarding our discussion this morning on sports and the Abbotstown issue, the perceived elite "spectator sport" of opera — though opera lovers will criticise me for that description — is relevant. If it is more a spectator sport, perhaps business should invest in producing the Abbotstown equivalent of what is needed in the arts.

Senator Ó Murchú

I dtosach is mian liom admháil go bhfuil mo bhean chéile mar bhall den Comhairle Éalaíon agus go bhfuil mé féin mar ard-stiúrtheoir ar Chomhaltas Ceoltóiri Éireann. Cuirim fáilte roimh an toscaireacht ón gcomhairle i dtosach agus tréaslaím Mary Cloake atá tofa mar stiúrthóir. Guím gach rath ar a saothar amach anseo.

I agree with much of what I have heard today regarding the importance of the arts in the life of the people and that of a nation. When we had theatre fora at this committee I was able to put forward my views on the importance of properly funding the artistic life of a nation. It is good for the morale of the people, good for us internationally and even from a tourism point of view.

I want to specifically consider the question of the Irish traditional arts. There was quite an extensive debate during the formulation of the Arts Bill and the subsequent Arts Act. The Minister for Arts, Sports and Tourism, Deputy O'Donoghue, said that there was more debate on the traditional arts than on the Criminal Assets Bureau, though I am not sure what the connection is.

Chairman

We will find that out too.

Senator Ó Murchú

The special committee on the traditional arts was a statutory committee established under section 21 of the Arts Act. Like most people, I regard a statutory committee as being very important and I take it very seriously. For that reason, there are issues we must discuss if for no other reason than the future of the traditional arts in an official sense and the integrity of the Arts Council.

That special committee involved four members and a chairman, five in all. They held their final meeting on 13 July. As the chairman rightly said, it is quite acceptable that all members would not necessarily have to agree. The final draft was placed before that meeting and as I understand it was read out and gone through meticulously, line by line. Some tiny alterations were made and the draft was then put to the meeting. The chairman and two members accepted it, so that it then became a majority report. The other two members said they would not sign up to it but would issue a minority report. The reports were meant to go to the Arts Council.

It is not unusual in committees to have a majority and a minority report. The latter is usually a response to the majority report, so both are discussed together. The report presented to the Arts Council as the majority report was not the report approved on 13 July 2004. That is a very important statement because a statutory committee is very important and must be taken seriously. There were 59 alterations made outside committee.

We are Members of the Oireachtas, and this committee was set up under the legislation of the Oireachtas. Not only is it governed by legislation but by procedures of best practice. The changes made to the report were not cosmetic. I have them all with me, and they are quite serious. Entire sections have been rewritten, such as the sections on local authority, on education and on the rating that would be given to the traditional arts. The latter was originally given as being in the top three and was changed outside the committee to one of the top four. Going by last year's figures, the difference in money would amount to almost €1 million. I will return to the importance and relevance of that.

What is worse is that the altered report specifically states that this was the report approved on July 13. That statement is in the report. In fact, in the report presented to the Minister the same false claim is made, on page 36, I think. The two documents are there for examination. It is well known that irregularities of that magnitude never go away. They are revisited again and again and usually end up in some official forum where a decision has to be made on who made the changes.

However, the questions are very simple. I would have preferred if the chairman of that committee, who is the deputy chairman of the Arts Council, was present because we would then have somebody with whom we could engage. Who changed the report and why? Who authorised this? Was there an outside influence or vested interest? We do not know the authorship. Why did the Arts Council accept a flawed document? There are 59 alterations that were not made in that statutory committee. However, at some time between the final meeting of 13 July, the changes were made.

If this happened in the health, business or education sectors, there would be an outcry and calls for resignations. I have heard positive comments on the traditional arts for which I am glad. I hope we will prove that the traditional arts are as important as other areas. There is only one way to resolve this, which is through an investigation. The Oireachtas has an important arm. The Comptroller and Auditor General, or a similar body, must be able to engage with the documentation and the points I have raised. Until such time, the integrity of the Arts Council will be in question, which I do not want.

It is important to realise how we reached this point. The document has three appendices and the finance appendix was omitted after the final meeting. While finance was fundamental to the terms of reference laid down by the Minister, the financial appendix was left out. Was the Minister informed of the irregularities involved? I do not believe he could have been. The Minister acted in good faith. It was he who first identified that there was no coherent policy on the traditional arts after 50 years of the Arts Council and he who identified that they were under-funded. The chairperson graciously accepted this, as did the Arts Council. However, if we let this issue lie, it would be like building a house on a weak foundation. That foundation will not hold up any future edifice for the traditional arts.

The matter is so serious it may have set a precedent for the other two committees. Does it mean the committee on local authorities and the committee to be set up on education can come to their final meeting and agree a document, and that the document can be changed, not cosmetically but fundamentally? Has a precedent been established for the other two committees? More important, if we accept it, has a precedent been established for all committees set up under legislation in future? If so, this issue will be recycled again and again.

We should be in no doubt. The two reports are before us with every change shown. The changes are fundamental throughout the documents. I will ask the questions again. Who did it, why was it done and who authorised it? Why did the Arts Council, knowing that the changes had been made, proceed with the flawed document?

I return to the question of whether the traditional arts would be in third or fourth place. The document of 13 July said it would be one of the top three, yet, after the meeting, it was secretly — we do not know who did it — dropped to No. 4. Considering last year's figures, this could amount to a loss of €1 million for the traditional arts. However, the question is who would have moved up to the No. 3 position. It is not a matter of whether the Arts Council accepted them or whether they are included in the Arts Council recommendations. The process is wrong because it is flawed and could be found to be illegal. It will have to be investigated.

Deputy O’Shea

I welcome the representatives of the Arts Council. I congratulate Ms Cloake on her appointment and wish her every success in a difficult position. In my constituency, discussion of the Arts Council arises in the context of the Waterford International Festival of Light Opera which does not receive any funding from the council. The explanation given for this was that the Waterford festival was a competition and, for that reason, would be excluded from funding. I am not aware of any change in policy by the Arts Council in that regard but I would like to know the current position

When I attended secondary school, we studied plays that we never saw performed, which left a big gap in how we were exposed to the plays. When I was in sixth year, Mr. Denis Franks visited the school and we paid two shillings to hear him recite various extracts from Shakespeare. In my leaving certificate year, there was a television production of Hamlet, with Christopher Plummer taking the lead role. Given that plays remain on the secondary school curriculum, a strong case can be made for having productions touring nationally. Obviously, there would be large captive audience, namely, the students who would want to be present at performances. Many adults would also attend and the economics should work out better than when plays are staged in a random fashion in the hope that they turn out right.

In the context of the debate on the Arts Bill and the arts plan, which has or has not been sidelined, a strong emphasis was placed on innovation. To what extent is innovation part of the thrust of the Arts Council's current aims? In many cases, creativity will be best expressed in the area of innovation. I, therefore, would be happy to hear that this is still a priority and will be promoted in the interregnum between now and when we have a new arts plan. What is the time frame for developing a new arts plan?

Most of the other points to which I wanted to allude have been dealt with in some form or another so I will leave my contribution at that except to say that the whole area of voluntarism across a range of activities has been of interest to this committee. The report, Tipping the Balance, is seen as a basis on which to develop legislation. The organisation, Business in the Community, made the case to this committee that people with special abilities, experience and so on who will give of their time can be identified but that the difficulty is in marrying them to projects. Perhaps the Arts Council could have some level of discussion with that organisation to see if there any areas of mutual interest that could be developed.

Deputy Kelly

It gives me great pleasure to welcome the Arts Council to this committee meeting. I am delighted to welcome Ms Olive Braiden whose national reputation is second to none in terms of the wonderful work she has done on behalf of the people. She is well known for her work at the Rape Crisis Centre which she certainly put on the map. Since she got the job I have asked numerous people about Olive Braiden. I have been told she is hard-working, committed, dedicated, enthusiastic, and a lady of vision who gives value for money. I do not believe she is getting any money, but for the job of chairperson we are lucky to have someone of her calibre. I also welcome Ms Mary Cloake who is the new director, and Mr. John McGahern, a world famous man. He is originally from Athlone. I ate a loaf or two of Broderick's bread years ago where he was in the bakery business. He is very lucky that he did not stick to it because he probably made more and better dough the other way. I wish him well with the launch of the Patrick Kavanagh poems — Patrick Kavanagh has a Longford connection; his sister, the late Mrs. Quinn lived in Longford and her nephew Andy Quinn still lives in Longford. He was a visitor to Longford on different occasions. He got inspiration everywhere but I would say he got inspiration in Longford once or twice when he came to visit. I also welcome Mr. John O'Kane.

The arts should be treated in an equal manner and there should be a fair spread of funding. I welcome the Arts Council's support for ballet. In Longford we have the Shawbrook Ballet School, run by Anica Dawson, which has a small theatre which is being assisted by the Arts Council. I can say without fear of contradiction that it is as good a ballet training centre as any in Europe. The proof of the pudding is that one of her pupils, Marguerite Donlon, was the number two ballet dancer at Covent Garden in London and went on to become the number one ballet dancer with the Berlin Ballet.

In drama we have the Backstage Theatre, which is second to none, and the Bog Lane Theatre. The reason I mention them is to remind the Arts Council to send some money to both the Backstage Theatre and the Bog Lane Theatre when it gets funding, and to send more than it sent last year because it is well deserved. Longford is the cultural and artistic centre of the midlands. There are other towns in the midlands but when it comes to art, artists and the performing arts, Longford is the capital. The traditional arts, Irish music and dancing, are important and are recognised all over the world. Other types of music, modern music, opera, film and so on, are also very important.

The Chairman of the Longford Tidy Towns Committee, Mr. Andy O'Dowd asked me to request funding for a nice sculpture for the town. Perhaps the Arts Council would give consideration to providing funding for that. Ms Josie O'Rourke from Granard asked me whether I could get some money for the harp festival in Granard. Perhaps the council would consider providing funding for that. I told everybody in Longford I was to meet Arts Council today. However, I did not tell them exactly who would be here so they seemed to think I was to meet the council personally. I wish it well and look forward to us working together in the interests of the arts and of the people.

Ms Cloake

In reply to the Longford people, we certainly will look at applications for any of those excellent projects. If they write to us we will do our best to respond. The Shawbrook Ballet School and the Backstage Theatre are very important organisations and we have increased our support to them. Last year we gave them an extra €50,000 between them, and depending on how we do this year we are looking at an upward trend for most of our organisations.

Chairman

We should all have supplied our shopping lists before Deputy Kelly.

Ms Cloake

The issue of a fair spread is an important point. I do not want to overlook that. It is a very interesting issue. In terms of the applications we have already received this year, we have not received the same number of applications for every county. One of the things we will do next year is investigate why some counties have only one or two applications in and others have 40 or 50 so that we can address the issue of a fair spread. Whether it is called a spatial strategy of some kind, the issue of a fair spread will be very important to us.

In reply to Deputy O'Shea, his suggestion regarding making contact with Business in the Community is a very good one. I would like to follow up on that because we feel that the business sector and the arts sector have much to learn from each other. It is not simply about bringing skills from business into the arts but about looking at the things business can learn from arts organisations. One of the interesting projects that has happened recently is where the issue of motivation in arts production has been understudied from the commercial sector. People in business ask what is the motivation that makes people really want to get a theatre show up on time to the highest standard, and against all the odds the show goes on and everybody has worked in a team to do that. They want to know the secret. Perhaps we have a chance to make the arts and business relationship one of mutual learning and dependence. That is very good.

The council expressed two funding priorities for this year. One is consolidation of the under-funded arts organisations about which we spoke earlier. The second is innovation and what we can do to include new works and new ideas among the organisations we fund while at the same time trying to consolidate the people who are struggling. Innovation is still very important. Regarding the time frame for our new strategy, when we come here next year we will have it all done and dusted and we will be able to give the committee a copy.

We support Second Age Theatre Company which puts on Shakespeare plays in secondary schools, for example, it produced Macbeth in 2003. Touring is very expensive and we would need to invest a great deal in the theatre companies to help them extend to a 32 county reach. A major cost is travel, keeping people in accommodation, and per diems for the performers. We would like to extend their work but that will depend on the level of resources.

It is time that the Arts Council looked again at the difference between the amateur and professional communities, in regard to the Waterford Festival of Light Opera. We do not want directly to support competition but there may be other ways in which we can look at the amateur sector and give it some support. According to Mr. O'Kane, who manages our grants, we have not received a grant application from the festival this year. That may be because it did not expect to get funding but the door is not closed on the festival for the future because we want to talk to the people who are the backbone of much of the activity around the country in the amateur sector.

Ms Braiden may like to say something more about the final report on the traditional arts.

Ms Braiden

I have nothing to add. I am sorry if Senator Ó Murchú is not happy with my answer. Without divulging confidential information about what is said in committees I am not free to discuss it in any more detail. The Arts Council could have rejected part or all of it. We did not accept all of it and produced our report as a guide to policy which we now must establish. The first step is to hear from more people and appoint a traditional arts officer. Meanwhile, there will be a specialist working on that.

Deputy Deenihan

Will there be a final report?

Ms Braiden

When we have decided on a policy there will be a report. It will be part of the strategy.

Deputy Deenihan

Is this an interim report?

Ms Braiden

I do not think so.

Deputy Deenihan

After the consultation will there be a final report?

Ms Braiden

No. That will feed into our policy and will be part of our strategy. We said the funding for a group within the first three or four years would be a priority. We did not say it would be a first or second priority. While the report might propose that it be one of the top priorities, the Arts Council must look at everything.

Senator Ó Murchú

It did not go to the council from the committee. It was changed following the last meeting between the committee and the Arts Council. The matters I raised are outside committee. The question of who changed it must be of concern to the Arts Council. It must have an answer to that. Why was it changed? Who authorised it? Were there outside influences and vested interests? Why did the Arts Council accept it? This is an Oireachtas committee and when we put questions we expect answers. I expect answers to those questions.

Deputy Glennon

I welcome the delegation, particularly Mary Cloake and wish her the best. It is a pleasure to have someone of the stature of John McGahern before us too. In our dealings with the sports community we have been greatly heartened to see some eminent figures taking an interest in the development of their spheres of interest. It is wonderful to see a man of John McGahern's calibre sitting on the Arts Council and taking the time to put back into his sphere of interest some of the benefit he has derived from it.

Is it taken into account in a subsequent grant application that the applicant may have been unsuccessful in previous years or are all applicants judged on their merits for that particular year? I refer in particular to the Balbriggan arts festival which the Chairman of the Arts Council, Ms Braiden, launched in my constituency. It has been running for eight or ten years and has applied unsuccessfully to the Arts Council every year. Is it missing out on something? Surely it should be taken into account that a festival going from strength to strength has not received any funding over a ten year period.

I strongly endorse Deputy O'Shea's comments on Business in the Community, a group we encountered during our research on voluntarism on which the arts sector relies heavily. There appears to be good will in the business sector and the group has great potential for developing relationships with voluntary organisations and local businesses particularly in rural areas. I was delighted to hear the delegation's positive reaction to Deputy O'Shea's comment.

I am concerned by the comments from Senator Ó Murchú. I was not aware of this matter although I had read fleeting references to the alteration of the report in some newspapers. The Arts Council has come through a difficult period in recent years and it is very important that any outstanding questions are answered fully as quickly as possible. Perhaps this is not the forum, and I am not suggesting that it is because I do not know enough about the issue but it is in everybody's interest that these questions are not left hanging in the air. That would cause difficulties for everyone in the arts sector.

The new Arts Council received a warm welcome last year and it made an auspicious start. Ms Cloake is in the early days of her appointment and I hope that any outstanding questions will be answered fully to everybody's satisfaction at the earliest opportunity.

Deputy Wall

I am concerned that we are leaving here under a cloud. That is not a good way to move forward. Senator Ó Murchú has made a statement on which he obviously has supporting information. We are leaving with that in the arena. Some mechanism must be put in place either to put to bed why the changes were made, how they were made, or whether they are minor alterations to the language, such as we see in Bills going through the House. That, however, is not what Senator Ó Murchú suggests. I agree with Deputy Glennon it is bad and not the way to go forward. We have left behind that kind of behaviour but now we are creating a grey area that is not conducive to a good performance by the Arts Council. I would like to see it addressed, maybe not here but in some format, sooner rather than later.

Chairman

The Chairman is welcome to comment further if she wishes. The Arts Council has agreed a report and there has been an opportunity for feedback on it. The issue raised by Senator Ó Murchú is more about procedural matters and process and how it got to where it is.

There is a document on which one can comment, but the question is how it has got there. We are not privy to meetings of the arts committee or the sub-committee, and I do not know whether we are entitled to be — we would need to investigate that. I suggest that we send a transcript of this meeting to the Minister and ask him if he is happy that the procedure was followed. He could refer back to us and leave it at that.

Deputy Deenihan

We should advise the Minister to take cognisance of the minority report.

Chairman

If we get the transcript of the meeting today, all those issues will have been raised.

Deputy Deenihan

I suggest that he examine the minority report too.

Chairman

I shall ask him to consider what has been said today. There is a report on which everyone may comment regarding the shortfalls, pluses and minuses, but the issue Senator Ó Murchú is raising is the procedure and how it got there. We cannot address the nitty-gritty of that since we are not privy to it. Ultimately, we can ask the Minister to examine what was said today. As I said, the Arts Council is——

Deputy Deenihan

The press release circulated some time ago from which I quoted when I raised some of the same questions as Senator Ó Murchú has been in the public domain for some time.

Chairman

The transcript will throw up those questions.

Deputy O’Shea

We are losing sight of the fact that members have privilege, but people coming in from the outside do not. The Chairman's suggestion is good since this may not be the best setting in which to pursue those matters.

Chairman

It is the only option we have since it is up to the Minister to do that.

Deputy Glennon

I agree with what has been said by my colleagues, but time is of the essence and I am very concerned about a cloud developing.

Chairman

The Minister will come back to us as soon as his officials and he have gone through that.

Deputy Glennon

As soon as possible. I suggest that it be done urgently, since this could drag on and that is the last thing we want. I ask the Chairman to put a time limit on it if possible.

Chairman

I shall put it to them that we seek a response as soon as possible. If it is not forthcoming within a reasonable time — we are meeting frequently at present — we can address the matter again.

Deputy Deenihan

We are meeting a great deal.

Chairman

Almost three times a day. I think most of the points have been covered.

Ms Braiden

The Minister contacted me about that and launched the report. He requested further information, which I gave him. I understand from him that he is happy with the procedure. However, members have their own rules and regulations here and it is not possible for us to deal with the matter in this forum.

Chairman

I appreciate that. I thank all the people who came along today. I do not want to single out anyone, but it is a pleasure to see John McGahern, someone who has succeeded in his own field. On Friday evening, Brian Friel sat in a hall for several hours before an event started, of which he was patron, and it is important that there be role models. In that respect, we really value Mr. McGahern taking the time to be with us.

Mr. McGahern

It is a privilege.

Chairman

I hope we have not left him late for his launch. Thank you very much. I know we will have more interaction because we will be torturing the witnesses in future regarding the fields that are of interest to us. I thank them again for giving their time today.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.55 p.m. sine die.