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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ARTS, SPORT, TOURISM, COMMUNITY, RURAL AND GAELTACHT AFFAIRS debate -
Thursday, 28 Oct 2004

Athens Olympiad: Presentations.

As part of our continuing investigation into issues relating to the Irish participation in the Athens Olympiad, we are meeting two groups today, the National Coaching and Training Centre, NCTC, and the Irish Sailing Association. I welcome the representatives of the NCTC, Dr. Pat Duffy, director, and Ms Sheelagh Quinn, head of corporate services. We are not trying to establish blame or undermine anything people did or did not do. We are trying to learn from the mistakes of what did or did not happen so as to ensure that at least our athletes are given the chance to do their personal best. That is all one can ask in any situation.

The NCTC had a role in preparing for the Olympics. The representatives might expand on the centre's role in such preparation and whether they consider it could have been expanded or perhaps they consider it was sufficient and that everything was rosy in the garden. I invite Dr. Pat Duffy to make a submission following which members might wish to ask questions.

Dr. Pat Duffy

We are delighted to have this opportunity to make a submission to the committee. I am accompanied by Ms Sheelagh Quinn, director of corporate services at the NCTC.

I will give a brief overview of the NCTC and how it operates so members will understand the context in which we are operating. I will then make observations about the Athens quadrennial and focus on some key issues that need to be addressed going forward. We also have some support documentation in terms of proposals and so on which we will be happy to share with the committee.

I will follow broadly the structure of the submission that has been circulated. I will not refer to all of it, as members have this information in writing, but I will deal with the main points.

By way of background, the centre was established in 1992 by the then Minister of State, Deputy Aylward, and its headquarters is on the campus of the University of Limerick. Its terms of reference were first laid down in 1992, then added to by the then Minister of State, Deputy Allen, in 1997 and further refined following the establishment of the Irish Sports Council in 1999.

We are formally linked to the University of Limerick through a memorandum of agreement which operates within the context of the policies of the Irish Sports Council and the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism. This memorandum is currently under review by the council and the University of Limerick. It is proposed that the NCTC will become established as a company limited by guarantee with a refined set of objectives and its own company structure.

We benefit greatly from the physical infrastructure on the campus of the University of Limerick and we have developed excellent relationships with the university and its constituent parts over the past ten years. If members visited the campus recently, they would have noted that a ten-year physical development plan has been completed, with the €30 million development of the University of Limerick Arena, including a 50-metre pool and multi-purpose sports building.

We developed the centre's mission following extensive research in Canada, the United States, the United Kingdom, Europe and Australia. We pride ourselves on continuing to maintain those links and trying to underpin our work by close research and development into what is happening in sports worldwide.

There are two planks to the work we do. First, we have been asked to develop effective coaching and coach education systems across all of our sports and, second, we provide support for emerging and top athletes in designated sports. We have a two plank mission whereby, on one side, we deal with coaching and coach education and, on the other side, we deal with athletes and their development. It is essential that this work is carried out in close co-operation with national governing bodies because those are the bodies that deliver sport on the ground. Therefore, we have established partnerships with over 50 of these bodies. The work occurs in the context of the Irish Sports Council and the policies of the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism.

For the purposes of our work, we have banded sports into three categories. This may be of relevance to the committee in identifying priorities going forward. We currently band our sports into Olympic-paralympic sports, pathway sports and coaching sports. Olympic-paralympic sports is a fairly obvious classification. It consists of Olympic Games sports such as athletics, boxing, cycling, canoeing, sailing and rowing and the paralympic disciplines. The pathway sports consist of our major team games, both male and female, and also sports such as basketball, hockey, tennis and so on.

I will outline the key areas of work in which we are involved. We have established the national coaching development programme. We work in player-athlete services providing services under the Irish Sports Council's international carding scheme and, through corporate services, we provide training camps in an holistic training environment on the campus of the University of Limerick. Ms Sheelagh Quinn's section, corporate services, is also responsible for revenue generation, and in the past five years it has generated €1.8 million over and above State allocations to the centre.

As regards our structure, we are overseen by a board of management, normally consisting of 12 members, but currently we have an interim board of three members. We have 15 full-time staff. Our primary funding source is the Irish Sports Council. Our core grant in 2004 was €894,000. Revenue is generated and contributes a high percentage of our total budget; between 25% and 30% of the total budget of the centre is generated through commercial activities.

We try to develop close partnerships with our clients. We hold regular seminars of a technical nature with the national governing bodies. We have established a sports science and medical support network throughout the country. We have a sports medical panel and we recently established a technical advisory group which produced the document, Building Pathways in Irish Sport, to which I will refer later. We have established a targeted database of 25,000 key personnel within sport. They are mainly coaches and athletes. These would be people involved in coaching or certified as coaches, or who have availed of the services of the centre as athletes.

I will briefly outline what we consider to be the main achievements of the centre. The first is the establishment of the national coaching development programme. If one viewed the coaching landscape in Ireland ten years ago, one would have observed that every national governing body was operating to a different coaching agenda. There was no coaching structure or certification system for coaches. All our major sporting bodies are involved in a five level coach education and certification structure. This structure has been lined up with the emerging coaching qualification structure in the European Union. We are currently developing 36 coaching systems with different sports throughout the country.

The NCDP implementation manual can be passed around to members. It is a detailed manual which, effectively, is a step by step guide for national governing bodies on how to develop their own coaching systems from top to bottom. Our technical staff provide advice on how they can go about doing that. There are 25,000 certified coaches working at all levels, many of them in disadvantaged areas. Some 550 tutors have been trained. A tutor is a coach educator. These would be leading people in sports who are responsible for educating coaches within those sports.

This year we have assimilated 906 experienced coaches into the national coaching development programme. These coaches were in the system long before the NCTC was established. Rather than having them go through the education process from the bottom up, we provided them with the opportunity to assimilate, and this has been a successful scheme. People like Packie Bonner, Gerry Mullins and Eddie Macken are high profile coaches who have come in under that scheme.

We also have an active programme of harmonising coaching qualifications with Northern Ireland. We established a nationwide network of 350 sports science and medical service providers. These are doctors, physiotherapists, nutritionists, psychologists, biomechanists and physiologists who operate in all parts of the island and who provide services for our athletes, particularly through the carding scheme. In 2003, we provided 2,000 service provisions in sports science and medicine as part of the Irish Sports Council's international scheme.

We have established a medical screening programme, including hospital screening for athletes on the international carding scheme. This is a topical issue in light of the incidence of sudden death syndrome. All athletes on that scheme undergo a detailed medical screening. That programme has already picked up five athletes who needed further referral or intervention in regard toheart defects. Therefore, it is an important development.

There has been much comment on Ireland's performance in international sport, but over the years we have been privileged to support more than 50 medal winning performances at European or world level. Some of them are listed in the submission, but that is only a partial list. We have been closely involved with those performances. GAA squads, rugby development squads and national and international squads are increasingly using the facilities of the NCTC and the University of Limerick. As the NCTC is located on the campus of the University of Limerick, I, as its director, and the vice-president of the university, John O'Connor, were asked to jointly chair the physical development plan for the development of the physical infrastructure of the university. Therefore, the centre was directly involved in the conceptualisation and driving forward of that physical development plan.

There are also other initiatives in which the centre is involved. On an ongoing basis we provide technical support for the work of the Irish Sports Council. We meet the council on a quarterly basis and, as required, in the intervening period. We have developed a consultation paper, Building Pathways in Irish Sport, which I will not circulate at this point as I will deal with it later. In the 1990s, we were also strongly involved in drawing up the code of ethics and good practice for children's sport in Ireland, and I acted as the rapporteur to that group. We also contributed to the development of the document, Targeting Sporting Change, and simultaneously to the development of a sports strategy for Northern Ireland which was published around the same time.

I am the chairman of the European Coaching Council which is affiliated to the European Network of Sports Science in Education. That has developed a set of EU guidelines on the mutual recognition of coaching qualifications throughout Europe. Recently we negotiated with Lucozade Sport a continuous professional development programme and a sport education programme which adds a significant amount of revenue to the activities of the centre and also enables us to engage in many activities in which otherwise we would not be able to engage.

Before dealing with the current issues, I wish to make a few points about the Athens quadrennial, which is No. 7 in the submission. It is our view that the results achieved were somewhat less than might have been expected. However, we believe that some of the expectations in terms of Irish performances at Olympic Games are quite unrealistic. We need to be clear on what we can achieve in terms of medal winning performances and performances in finals and semi-finals.

I would like to give members an indication of the type of work the NCTC contributed to the quadrennial and we will be happy to answer any questions from members. Our main function in the quadrennial was to co-ordinate the sports science and medical support programmes for the Athens enhancement sports under the Irish Sports Council's programme. The sports in question were athletics, boxing, canoeing, cycling, rowing and sailing as well as equestrian and paralympic sports. We also co-ordinated the development of specific preparation guidelines for the Athens Games. We produced an extensive document on heat pollution, hydration and so on. The majority of athletes also came to the NCTC to undertake workshops on how to deal with the heat. We provided them with guidance and planning guidelines on how to deal with it.

During the four years in question 6,500 service provisions were delivered to carded athletes by the NCTC directly or through the network in place throughout the country. They were also delivered to some of our athletes based abroad. We organised several training camps in Limerick for Athens enhancement sports and the paralympic squads. Our staff travelled to Sweden, Spain, Greece, Cyprus, Holland, Germany and the United Kingdom to provide sports, science and medical support for the athletes going to Athens. We also provided ongoing education and support for the high level coaches involved in the preparation for the Athens Games. I have mentioned the assimilation scheme for which many of the coaches involved applied.

During the quadrennial — I remark on this because of some of the difficulties experienced in previous quadrennials — the working relationship between the centre and the Olympic Council of Ireland was excellent in relation to sports, science and medical support issues. Our head of player-athlete services, Dr. Giles Warrington, was a full member of the medical support team throughout the preparatory period. We had some reservations in the setting of targets for the quadrennial. We believe clear targets were not set and agreed across all the agencies in four key areas. What was our overall goal, purpose, mission and expectation in terms of performance? Much has been said about the preparedness of the team. We did not define clearly enough what we meant by high levels of preparation. What were the criteria for a well prepared team? What were our targets for team work between the main agencies involved — the Irish Sports Council, the Olympic Council of Ireland, the Paralympic Council, the NCTC and the national governing bodies? It is easy to talk about co-operation but it is essential to put in place tangible measures which will show there is co-operation. We need to see the results of such co-operation.

The fourth issue is that of legacy building. One of the great dangers in dealing with quadrennials is that if there is a poor result, everybody will say we are preparing for the next one. These are the third Olympic Games in which I have been director of the NCTC and heard that said. If we are talking about legacy building, we need to be clear on how we will build and measure that legacy. We need to be much clearer in what we say on the issue.

On the issue of the establishment of targets against which we can evaluate progress, we probably could have done more. The most important resource at our disposal is the staff. Ours is a small centre. There are 15 well qualified and highly motivated staff who worked morning, noon and night before and during the last four years in support of our efforts. Sadly, we entered the quadrennial with longer term issues in a vacuum such as terms and conditions and leave it in exactly the same way. That is very disappointing, given that following the review of the Sydney Games there were clear recommendations about the need for the National Coaching and Training Centre to be put on a firmer footing and for its resources to be matched to its remit.

I shall give the joint committee a tangible example of what this means. If I wanted to interview a person tomorrow morning for one of the main technical positions in the NCTC, it is most likely that I would have to go outside the country to find somebody with suitable experience. If I could find somebody inside the country, it would take two to three years for him or her to be fully trained in the work, even if he or she came to the centre well qualified. For us to lose a member of staff in the technical area would be a disaster. Our key staff members have received offers from as far away as Australia. One was in such demand she was on the point of going to work in the Australian system, not because she wanted to go but simply because we were not in a position to value the work she was doing. That is a key issue in coming out of the cycle.

Much has been said about the level of co-operation between the agencies involved as well as the level of preparedness. We agree in large measure. We need to recognise that it was much too late putting together an Athens enhancement programme and seeking co-operation 18 to 24 months before the games. We should be out of the blocks and not operating on four year cycles but eight and 12 year cycles. It took us time to assimilate, digest and start taking action on the findings of the Sydney Games review. It is crucial that there is a prompt Athens Games review which is action focused. I will be happy to comment on the Athens Games review.

I shall conclude by referring to some current issues. I have mentioned the terms and conditions, including pensions, of staff. The issues of company formation and future functions of the centre are still in abeyance four years after the Sydney Games review recommended that they be addressed. I hold my hand up as director of the centre. While it is my responsibility, I have to report that in Olympic year 2000 and pre-Olympic year 2003 the centre recorded budget deficits which put a significant strain on its operation. This means we have to generate money to clear the deficit. If so, our focus on our core business will be diverted. Because of budget constraints, regrettably we had to close our athletes village in 2004.

Recently we have had excellent discussions with Campus Stadium Ireland on the proposed developments at Abbotstown. Our view is that the headquarters of the NCTC should remain in Limerick but we would like to have a base at Abbotstown and ensure synergy in the work done in Dublin and Limerick as there is no room for duplication of facilities. This is a small country and we should be getting our act together and working together.

The main message we would like to get across is that we passionately believe there is a need for a policy commitment at the highest possible level to a long-term approach to the development of our athletes. A document I will pass around, Building Pathways in Irish Sport, was developed after an extensive period of consultation involving all of the national governing bodies. The group included Brian Kerr, Billy Kennedy from the Olympic Council of Ireland; Liam Harbison, the Paralympic Council; Pat Daly, the GAA; Robin Gregg, a coach in Northern Ireland; Stephen Aboud, Irish Rugby Football Union; Jill Poots, Sports Council for Northern Ireland; Helen Raftery, Irish Sports Council, and Thor Nilsen who was our rowing coach at the games. This broadly representative group was advised by Dr. Istvan Balyi, a Hungarian-Canadian expert in long-term athlete development based in British Colombia.

A core message of the document is that it takes at least ten years and 10,000 hours of practice to create an Olympic champion. If that is the case, we must recognise in our planning that we will have to go through different phases in developing athletes. To put it crudely, if we were manufacturing televisions, we would know the constituent parts, how long it would take to make them and get them off the production line. That is a crude analogy but we need to understand that many of the kids standing around rather than running in primary school playgrounds are the ones likely to be the Olympic champions of the future.

The document advocates five main phases of development and puts strong emphasis on the learn to play in practice phases, namely, before the age of 12 years. Our adviser has made a very controversial statement which I have to say in my empirical experience as director of the NCTC, a parent, coach and PE teacher is absolutely correct. If we do not develop the fundamental motor skills of children by the age of 12 years, they will never reach their genetic potential. What is frightening is that if we do not engage them in sport and physical activity by the time they reach 12 years of age, they are likely not to become involved or will become part of that high risk category of potentially obese individuals who will later develop health problems.

Our basic argument is that we need a long-term approach. It is a win-win situation — that as well as investing in high performance, we will also invest in the health and well-being of the nation. When one considers the amount being spent on health budgets, the amount required to make a tangible difference based on this approach is a drop in the bucket.

To illustrate how we conduct our business, there is a summary of the feedback received from the various agencies. What members will see is that there has been a strong endorsement of the approach by many influential individuals but as Deputy Deenihan said at the federation meeting, it is just a document. We have heard much about legacies and documents. The issue now has to be how we move forward and plan actions.

Has the document been costed?

Dr. Duffy

No, we have been asked to cost it. That is part of the feedback we have been asked to give. I thank the joint committee for giving me the opportunity to make this presentation and I will be happy to answer any questions it may have.

I will start by disagreeing with Dr. Duffy. One is much too old to start at the age of 12 years. I have already had this debate with him. When she appeared before the joint committee, Maedhbh Kiely gave a strong indication that one must be involved by the age of six years, by which age 50% of one's characteristics, in terms of what is right and wrong, are formed through watching one's mother or father but we will argue this issue on another day. I appreciate the information Dr. Duffy has given us because it is important for us to know from where he is coming from, his goals and ambitions and the shackles placed on him.

Dr. Duffy said it was the third Olympic Games for which the NCTC had been in existence. I find it unbelievable the Irish Sports Council did not provide funding to secure the Olympic village. We were told this was our best prepared and best funded team but it showed a lack of strategy that the Olympic village was not open in the year of the Olympic Games.

The NCTC is the conduit in supporting athletes and coaches. Does Dr. Duffy consider the question mark against the development at Abbotstown and the centre of sport and excellence has left the NCTC in limbo? The database of key personnel is very important but is Dr. Duffy following up athletes and those key personnel to see what their reaction is and to learn from his own critical commentary? I congratulate him on the all-Ireland dimension because mutual recognition of qualifications is often forgotten.

We have a questionnaire with athletes to enable them give feedback. One of the points Dr. Duffy made about two-year as opposed to four-year preparation has already been made by a person who progressed from a ranking of 30th in the world to 9th having participated for two years in the enhancement programme. Obviously, if we had a two-year rather than a four-year programme, we would be setting ourselves a harder target. When we get answers back from the athletes, is Mr. Duffy expecting us to hear the majority had interaction with the NCTC and that it was positive? That is a blunt question. What does Dr. Duffy think the main criticism of him will be?

Dr. Duffy

It was regrettable that we had to close the Olympic village in 2004 but we ended 2003 with a significant budget deficit and had no alternative other than to close the village. We paid upfront a rental charge to Plassey campus centre, a subsidiary company of the university, and had to generate revenue from room bookings. Ms Quinn may wish to comment on the matter. Even in a good year we might have ended running up a deficit of between €60,000 and €70,000. Heading into Olympic year we would have had to claw back the deficit. There was no way we could have taken on the additional deficit.

It was a key part of the preparations to have the village for the athletes.

Dr. Duffy

We made that case but our budget in 2004 was no different from that in 2003. Our budget in 2003 was €60,000 less than that in 2002. Our resources were getting tighter. That was the big issue for us.

May I ask for the figures again as I did not catch them?

Dr. Duffy

Our budget in 2004 is the same as that for 2003. Our budget for 2003 showed a cut of €60,000 on that for 2002. Given that we have to meet inflation costs, staff increment costs and so on, it effectively meant we had to tighten our belt.

At what stage is the NCTC notified of its budget for the following year?

Dr. Duffy

We usually get involved in discussions around this time of year.

What percentage of the overall budget does the sum of €60,000 represent?

Dr. Duffy

Approximately 7% of the core budget.

From the Irish Sports Council or the OCI?

Dr. Duffy

The Irish Sports Council. Approximately €870,000 is received by the centre for its core programmes. We also receive a budget of in the region of €230,000 for the Irish Sports Council's international card scheme for which we are a postbox in forwarding the money to service providers. If somebody needs a physiotherapist in Donegal, we could get the bill. Ms Quinn has done a superb job in the past five years. This year alone our revenue generation target is close to €300,000.

Shall I move on to deal with the issue of Abbotstown?

Dr. Duffy

It seems a long time ago since it was first mooted. In the context of the cycle, the observations of the joint committee are correct. When the project was first discussed, even though the feasibility study and subsequent documentation referred to complementary developments to those in Limerick, we felt we were in limbo. Our initial view that the campus component did not appear to be as grounded in the reality of the requirements of Irish sport as we would have liked. Our view at the time was and still is that we need a three node centre of excellence on the island. Facilities are already in place in Limerick. There is a need for a significant facility in Dublin while there is an emerging sports institute at Jordanstown in Northern Ireland. We are moving towards the point where the island will be well served by centres of excellence.

Our view is that what occurs at Abbotstown should be very carefully planned in order that we will have a complementary set of facilities and services between Limerick and Dublin. There is no point in duplicating facilities. Our view is that we would like to have a base in Abbotstown as well as Limerick to ensure there is planning of sports, science and medical services. Given that we are moving towards a stronger emphasis on team sports at the campus, we have already developed excellent relationships with the sports in question and are well positioned to assist.

We have been saying for a number of years — there is now empirical evidence from abroad in support of this — that there is in Ireland what is called the birthplace effect. We probably all know this but it is becoming evident from international research that if one comes from a city of more than one million people, one's chances of becoming a high level athlete are significantly reduced. This may surprise the joint committee but the findings of a study covering North America are about to be published which show that in a city with a population of over one million one's chances are significantly reduced. If one comes from a city with a population of between 500,000 and one million, one is in the mid range but if one comes from somewhere with a population of between 5,000 and 50,000, one's chances are significantly increased. If one looks at our Olympic team, many of the athletes come from a rural background, Munster in particular where there is a strong record.

They build them up.

Dr. Duffy

They feed them well too. The problem for Ireland in terms of high performance and the development of athletes is that the population is increasingly being concentrated in the Dublin area. There is a strong case for ensuring we have a specific strategy focused on Dublin. In that context, the complex at Abbotstown has an extremely important role to play. When we look at Limerick, we see it that it has been the local infrastructure which has made the facility vibrant. It is absolutely buzzing. Munster rugby has played a huge role in helping to add backbone to the facility. A recent meeting with representatives of Campus Stadium Ireland was very positive and we would like to interact on an ongoing basis in the planning, development and delivery of that facility.

We have conducted a study of the factors contributing to the success of our athletes and received detailed feedback from them. We keep in close contact with them on an ongoing basis. It is fair to say we need to be more systematic in tracking their views on the services we provide for them. The same applies to coaches. There are so many that we will probably need to adopt a more systematic approach.

The mutual recognition of coaching qualifications has operated well for some sports but not so well for others. For those sports with an obvious North-South orientation there is generally not a problem. For those that look more to the east than to the south it takes more negotiating. We have an arrangement with our sister organisation, Sports Coach UK, which ensures the qualifications specified in the manual will link in with the emerging UK based qualifications. If there is further North-South and east-west co-operation, sport could play a significant role in helping to move it forward.

What will the athletes think of our services for the Athens Games? One will find that approximately three quarters of them will have availed of the services but I would only count those who were with us on a number of occasions. A once-off visit is like an orientation session but we need to see repeat usage by athletes. The group which has used the NCTC most since the day it opened its doors is the rowers. During that time we have seen the ten year rule develop. I could pull out Sam Lynch's file when he was 17 years of age and he is now a world class athlete. He has come back repeatedly as part of a systematic programme. That is exactly what we need to see happening. We need to have athletes repeatedly involved in scientific programmes with the right coaches. I cannot speak highly enough of Thor Nilsen as an influence during the years. He was there when we started and for much of the time we have been open. Unfortunately, he missed out on the Sydney Games cycle. What the athletes will say about our services is that sometimes they are too rushed, that sometimes they do not have enough time for them, that they cannot get enough of them and that they cannot stay as long as they would like. They are some of the key points they would make.

Ms Sheelagh Quinn

On the closure of the Olympic village, we had a business plan which brought forward three options for keeping it open with the assistance of the council. We submitted it in October 2003 but because of budget constraints we have not been in a position to discuss it with the council.

I welcome Dr. Duffy and Ms Quinn. Dr. Duffy is a long time colleague of mine as we both come from PE teaching backgrounds. Given that he has raised many issues and made a comprehensive presentation, I will try not to repeat what he has told us. Can he be specific on the role he will play in the Athens Games review? Because of the importance of his role in preparing Olympic Games athletes he will have a major role to play in the review. While I note consultants have been engaged to it carry out under the auspices of Mr. Flinter, what role will Dr. Duffy play?

In the final year of preparation for the Athens Olympic Games the village which had supported our athletes was closed. This was inexplicable and reflected poorly on our preparation for the games and how the National Coaching and Training Centre had been resourced. It is unfortunate the joint committee did not know about this. The centre needed money while the athletes, many of whom do not travel abroad to train, needed support. The matter deserves more explanation.

There were camps in Seville, Cyprus, Zagreb and northern Greece. Surely the camp in Limerick was important in the preparation for and lead up to the games. The centre receives funding from the Irish Sports Council which may state its funding was cut. However, it reflects poorly on us as a country that the centre looking after athletes just before the Olympic Games had its funding cut. This shows poor foresight and bad planning.

Perhaps there is a hidden agenda regarding the development at Abbotstown in that the centre in Limerick will not play a major role. People will regard Abbotstown as the centre of excellence where athletes will prepare for the Olympic Games. In that situation the centre in Limerick will be downgraded and made less relevant. That would be dangerous.

We should adopt a regional approach with two or three institutes of sport. Can Dr. Duffy comment on this? The University of Ulster, through the centre in Jordanstown, is an institute of sport. Why can the University of Limerick not be one also? There could also be such an institute in Dublin. DCU is trying to establish an institute of sport without any support.

Where there is a regional approach, athletes can come to a centre without having to travel three hours. They can come in half an hour or an hour. This has been proved by the Munster rugby team. Athletes can travel from around the region, for example County Kerry, to use the centre in Limerick. That is the best way forward. I would like to hear Dr. Duffy's comments on this matter.

The National Coaching and Training Centre has 25,000 coaches. However, do we have the calibre of coaches to make us competitive in all sports? Are there speciality sports which require external coaches? The expertise required may not be available in Ireland. What are we doing to attract external coaches to fill the void?

Recently we produced a report on the involvement of women in sport, to which the National Coaching and Training Centre made a contribution for which I thank it. Many organisations did not deem it worthy, but the centre did and it was an important contribution. Some 70% of coaches are male and 30% are female. However, there are as many — if not more — females competing at league level as males. We should, therefore, strive to ensure there are as many properly qualified female coaches as possible.

Some years ago Mr. Dan Flinter produced a report on high performance sport but it seems to have been ignored. It was published amid much fanfare, but I do not know if any of its recommendations were implemented.

The National Coaching and Training Centre is geared towards elite sport. That is its raison d’être. It also has a role in qualifying coaches and putting in place systems for mass participation in sport. From listening to all the speakers today, it seems we are concerned there should not only be a focus on elite athletes, but also on the masses. Sport should be seen as a continuum, from elite sport to mass participation.

There should be an emphasis on getting more people involved in sport in the right way. There are reports on obesity and an obesity forum. There are also several reports on heart disease. The problem has been well identified and analysed and we need programmes of action. Primary school is the place to start. A new PE curriculum will be rolled out. Unfortunately, there is less time for PE in schools than in the past. It is up to the enthusiasm of individual schools and teachers to implement PE programmes. Private schools have such programmes, but public schools do not. That is why parents send their children to private schools. It is a major problem and we must do something about it. Last summer the then Minister for Education and Science advised principals to turn their gymnasiums into classrooms. That was a negative statement regarding PE in schools. Two years ago there was a grant of €900 which was subsequently removed.

I would like the delegates to refer to the centre's role in the review of the Athens Olympic Games. It should have an important role. I would also like them to refer to the issue of coaches, institutes of sports and what will happen when the complex at Abbotstown comes on stream.

As another group will be attending the committee today, we will take more questions before the delegates answer.

I thank the delegates for their presentation and apologise for being slightly late and missing the beginning of their presentation.

I am pleased the centre is keen to remain in Limerick which has one of the finest modern universities. Why would it not remain there, considering the facilities available?

I am curious, interested and worried about the chairperson's comments regarding the complex at Abbotstown. I would also be worried about duplication. If the Government is serious about decentralisation, it will be delighted to have specialist facilities at an appropriate location such as Limerick. There are such facilities for music on the campus.

The delegates spoke about having a section, or an outreach office, in Abbotstown. Is there not a danger of duplication? They spoke of three nodes, places, or sites that are identified. I was more worried when they said they could see themselves in Abbotstown, and that there might be duplication. We must be clear in deciding what the complex at Abbotstown will be about.

A point was made about targets and goals, and how people's realisations and expectations were high. Who sets these expectations? The Athens Olympic Games were disappointing in that many athletes did not reach their personal best. We should forget about bringing home medals. An athlete on a career trajectory has personal goals. We could have expected more in that regard. It has been mentioned that the rowers were particularly strong. Can the delegation explain if this performance is a matter of tradition or have they come back in strength? If this works for one area of sport, how can it be translated to others?

When is the outcome of the Athens Games review expected? Perhaps it is cynicism on my part but I am sure it will be similar in content to the Sydney Games review. This is unsatisfactory. I do not wish to pre-empt the findings of the latest review but it will be instructive to discover how much we have learned when considering both reviews. It may be that the new review is merely a case of scribbling out "Sydney" and substituting "Athens". The idea of taking a long-term approach is laudable but, after three Olympic Games, one begins to wonder when results will be evident. Can the delegation confirm that its Beijing strategy is under way?

I join my colleagues in welcoming Dr. Duffy and Ms Quinn from the NCTC. I have been aware of its activities since its foundation and the high degree of professional expertise it has brought to the entire spectrum of Irish sport. It must be frustrating at times for it not to receive public acknowledgement of its input to the development of sport. Anybody involved in sport is aware of its contribution.

We should focus on the primary concern of this meeting, the Athens Olympiad. Committee members are sports fans. We seem to have slipped into an enjoyable discussion of our favourite topic and wandered slightly from the main issue. I was surprised by a presentation to the joint committee by a delegation from the Irish Sports Council which indicated the funding allocations to different sports. I believe two sports which I do not wish to name consumed approximately €1.75 million between them. Many sports organisations are screaming for funds. The Irish Sports Council has appointed Mr. Dan Flinter to conduct the investigation into the Athens Olympiad. I am interested in the delegation's view on this.

I agree wholeheartedly with Dr. Duffy's point about the cycle and that the Athens enhancement programme was activated at a very late stage. I hope the Athens investigation team will produce a report by Christmas, that the report will not be put on a shelf somewhere in the spring and that actions resulting from it will take place in six or nine months' time to ensure year one of the four year cycle will not be lost.

While the Olympic Games are held quadrennially, the ten year cycle is insufficient in the preparation of athletes. The quadrennials should be staging posts for the review of a longer cycle. What seems to happen is that a programme is introduced, based on the outcome of a particular quadrennial, with the expectation it will bear fruit after three years, once recommended actions are implemented. What is the delegation's view on this issue?

Notwithstanding budgetary difficulties which we have all encountered in recent years, it is amazing that funding for the Olympic village, one of the main facilities in the preparation of athletes, was cut in the primary year of the cycle. Reading between the lines of the delegation's written submission, perhaps there is not as much communication as there should be between the Irish Sports Council and the NCTC? Alternatively, it may be the case that there is plenty of communication but it is of inadequate quality. I may be wrong in this but the communication process does not seem to be all it should be. In its submission the delegation makes reference to an excellent working relationship with the Olympic Council of Ireland. However, Ms Quinn has mentioned that there has not yet been an opportunity to discuss the business plan the NCTC submitted to the Irish Sports Council some time ago regarding the closure of the Olympic village. This does not sit right. Good, open communication is the essence of the operation with regard to sport.

I differ from Deputy Deenihan in that I approach this issue unreservedly from the point of view of mass participation rather than elite athletes and elite competition. Elite athletes play an important part as role models in the effort to secure mass participation in sport, to which we all aspire. They are entitled to the best support if this mass participation is to be developed. Every aspiring sportsperson must be given the opportunity to realise fully the potential he or she possesses. We should not get hung up on what I sometimes refer to as the show business element of sport to the detriment of mass participation which is the most important aspect. Elite athletes have a part to play in this.

The NCTC has a role to play with regard to nutrition. Does it have any role to play on the issue of drugs? What is the link between the individual coaches with whom an athlete works both in the village at the University of Limerick or the NCTC and when he or she goes abroad? Deputy O'Malley made a point regarding the management of expectations, one of the issues raised in the review. Mr. John Treacy told the joint committee that expectations had been managed well. I believe Mr. Dan Flinter oversaw production of the Pathways to Athens document?

Dr. Duffy

Yes, he oversaw the formulation of the high performance strategy.

Should the same person be involved in reviewing the performance at Athens?

Deputy Glennon may have misunderstood me on the matter of elite athletes versus mass participation. There is a place for elite athletes but a continuum with regard to mass participation. I was clear on this and have expressed my view to the joint committee on many occasions. Sport should be for the many, not just for the few.

Who is responsible for settling terms and conditions for the centre?

Members of the delegation have only 30 seconds to answer all of the members' questions.

It is important that they reply to all of them, even though another delegation is due shortly.

Dr. Duffy

It is wonderful and gives me great heart to be asked such incisive questions. We will participate in the Athens review but we have expressed our disappointment to the Sports Council at not being consulted about how it would be conducted. Neither were we approached to be connected with the steering group of the Athens review. It is disappointing, particularly when we were mentioned 28 times in the Sydney review.

Is Dr. Duffy saying the National Coaching and Training Centre has no role in the review of the Athens Olympiad?

Dr. Duffy

We have to make a submission to the UK-based consultants.

That says it all.

That is a statement in itself.

Dr. Duffy

We have some general observations about the use of consultants during the course of the cycle. While talking about legacy building and accepting that consultants have a role, we still need to be careful when using them. I believe they have been overused in this cycle.

I share the Chairman's concern about the structure of the review. Mr. Finbar Costello was an excellent chairman of the Sydney review and we were somewhat surprised he was not involved in the Athens review. I was on the high performance committee of which Dan Flinter was an excellent chairman. However, the Athens review is about reviewing objectively all that went on in the Athens cycle. Given that one of the main themes of the Sydney review was how well the different agencies worked together, it is our view that someone must stand outside of those agencies and ask if they did their job well. That person should be nominated by the Department or maybe this committee is playing that role. I am not downgrading any agency. The Sports Council has a statutory remit but it is only five years in existence and this is its first full quadrennial. If we are to be honest with ourselves, it is crucial that all aspects of the system get a thorough and objective review.

A business plan has been on the blocks for the training village proposal. We were asked to keep it on hold until the company formation issue for the National Coaching and Training Centre was resolved. I agree it reflects poorly on our preparation. Ultimately, as director, I must take responsibility for taking the decision to close the village. I have outlined to the committee the budget constraints under which we were operating. We, particularly Ms Sheila Dickson, made provision for accommodation for those athletes who wanted to train in Limerick. It was not as satisfactory as we would have liked.

We seem to think that to develop international athletes, they must be sent abroad to international competitions and training camps. The National Coaching and Training Centre, however, believes that before an athlete reaches the train-to-compete phase of his or her career, he or she must pass through three other phases — the fundamental, the learn-to-play-in-practice and training-to-train phases. The regionally-based approach to training was referred to by members. Why should athletes be sent to warm weather training camps in Malta and Cyprus if they do not know how to train correctly or understand how their bodies will react in the heat? It is a nonsense and a waste of money.

One of the best examples of what can be done with young children is Tennis Ireland's training camp at Leopardstown. Every weekend, primarily through its funds and an Irish coach, it brings together children between the ages of nine and 14 years for excellent training programmes on a day-to-day basis. If it takes 10,000 hours to develop an athlete, where will it be done? We are not going to send him or her to Malta. It must happen in the athlete's local community through mass participation, then in local centres of excellence and then in regional and national centres. However, these must be paid for and more time must be made for our coaches to work with athletes. As many of them are volunteers, supports need to be provided for coaches.

Did Deputy Deenihan or Deputy Glennon raise the matter of coaching?

I think we all raised it. Dr. Duffy is probably confused by the Jims. Yesterday's newspaper carried a report on Deputy Jim Glennon, the captain of the Kerry football team in 1981. I asked about the quality of coaches.

Dr. Duffy

I apologise if I occasionally get up on my soapbox. Just as I feel passionately about having world class athletes, I feel equally passionate about having world class coaches. All that is required is for the structures and systems to be put in place to help coaches develop. Brian Kerr, Eddie O'Sullivan, Gerry Mullins, Gary Cahill and Maeve Kyle are superb coaches. We have the coaching capabilities but we need to develop them. The key point is that we need to link up with the right international advice to enable that happen. For instance, in rowing Thor Nielsen was taken on as a foreign coach to help develop the rowing system which has worked well. In tennis, links have been made with the world famous Belgian coach, Ivo van Aken, who trains the top tennis players Kim Clijsters and Justine Henin. He visits Ireland several times a year to mentor Irish tennis coaches.

The National Coaching and Training Centre supports these coaches. We are proud that when no one had heard of Brian Kerr, he was down at the National Coaching and Training Centre with his under-18 football team. He has been intimately involved in our work and we have learned more from him than he from us. However, we played a role in giving moral support in helping the FAI and Packie Bonner to enhance its technical development plan. We have the coaches but we need to provide them with the opportunity to develop. A coach will have to be present for many of the 10,000 hours it takes to train an athlete. Provision will have to be made for coaches whether it is in the schools, local clubs or community.

What about the male-female balance?

Dr. Duffy

Yes, the Deputy's statistics are right as there is a ratio of three to one. More will have to be done in that regard. Based on the recent conference, Ms Catherine Bird produced a report on the main recommendations. It is part of our operational plan for 2005 to identify actions for the National Coaching and Training Centre to be more proactive in getting the balance right. There are great opportunities for women in sport. I hope I do not offend anyone, but we are in a post-Catholic era with few of the inhibitions that might have existed in the 1950s and 1960s. I am sure Maeve Kyle has spoken to the committee about some of them. If we provide our young girls with the opportunity, we have the potential to produce girls who will stay in sport. As Sonia O'Sullivan, Caitríona McKiernan, Gillian O'Sullivan and Sinéad Jennings have shown, we have world class athletes. The medal tally of the Australians shows they have greatly exploited the potential of women in sport. Strategically, we should target those sports which can deliver on the participation of girls.

Deputy Deenihan asked about Abbotstown and the institute issue. It is very important we are clear in our minds in this regard. What do we mean by an institute? About five or six years ago, I did a study tour of the institute structure in Australia. While we can take on board some of its principles, under no circumstances can we transplant the Australian institute structure into Ireland. The Australians have a different sporting culture and system. I asked Frank Pike, the director of the Victoria institute, how he decides which athletes come into his institute. He told me the institute contacts only the sports that have a pathway. There is a simple message here. There is no point in us concentrating supports on 50 or 60 athletes at the top of the tree if they are mediocre athletes or do not have the background to enable them to be top performers. There is a connection with the drugs issue. If we put athletes who do not have the background or the capability to reach the world level in positions where we expect they should, and they do not have the background, there is only one way they can achieve it, through an illegal mechanism. We need to be careful on how we think through this. Our view is that an institute cannot be about 50 or 60 athletes. It must be about building pathways. We are of the view that there about 15 institute sports in the country. We should work with those to develop vibrant coaching and athlete development systems. Out of that, we should identify mechanisms for talent development and high performance programmes.

We need to take a leadership role in this because there is a view that if we want high performers we need to specialise them early. Deputy Glennon knows the rugby people want the children at seven and eight. The GAA and the soccer people also want them at seven and eight. We have children at ten years of age claiming they need a break as it is their fifth season and they are worn out. We are in danger of trying to specialise children too early with the result they get a lot of exposure in competitions and many of them drop out. A study carried out on professional soccer players, called relative age effect, shows that 75% of those who make it were born in the first half of the year. This is because when they were nine years old they were bigger than their contemporaries. They got picked and their contemporaries did not. It is daft because it means at least 50% of the population are being shoved aside.

As part of this institute structure, we advocate stronger co-operation between our sports up to the age of 12. We advocate a three, two, one rule for parents. Children should play at least three sporting activities until they are 12 years of age. These activities should be from different families of activity such as swimming, athletics and one of the team games. Between the ages of 12 and 14 it could reduce to two activities and by the time the child is 15 he or she needs to make a choice if he or she is a high performer. If not, the child should carry on with one activity on a recreational basis. That is an institute structure because we are developing a philosophy of how matters should develop over ten to 14 years.

At the other end of the scale, the talented 15 year olds are being murdered by being asked to play for many different teams. Between the ages of 14 and 18, when these young adults should be learning how to train and developing their physical capacities which will take them into adult participation, some of them are playing three matches a day on weekends. They suffer from burn out, breakdown and they just get fed up. It is a long-winded answer to the question of what is an institute, but an institute needs to be founded on a very clear philosophy.

I have not heard Deputy Glennon's point on quadrennial planning made in that way before, but it is an absolutely crucial point. If we proceed in four year parcels, figure out what we learned and look at the athletes in that four year cycle, we are missing the point. We need to proceed in the context of a much bigger picture. The Australians know the role of Australian rules, and where rugby and cricket fit in. This is a challenge for the GAA as we need to redefine the fabric of Irish sport for the 21st century. Gaelic games has a huge role to play but we need to get the synergies working much better, particularly up to the age of 15. I hope I have not gone too far off the point.

Dr. Duffy could continue for another hour.

I would like Dr. Duffy to know the door remains open when he leaves.

Ms Quinn

Every member of our staff believes passionately in the values of sport and physical activity for individuals, communities and the nation as a whole. Most of those employed by the National Coaching and Training Centre could earn on average 25% more in a different industry. They choose to stay with the NCTC because of their passion for sport. Our terms and conditions have been outstanding since 1999. We have been told it is linked to company formation, which has not happened and it cannot be addressed until then. We now have a letter from the Sports Council claiming it is not responsible for our terms and conditions. We have spoken with our union to the university's human resources department, which has informed us it is not responsible for our terms and conditions. I believe we also have a letter from the chairman of our board stating he has no role in our terms and conditions. The answer to Deputy O'Malley's question is that we do not know.

I want to draw the meeting to a conclusion. I am delighted the witnesses took the time to attend. I read in the Irish Independent on 24 August that Pat Hickey stated the whole idea of the Athens review was to be open, frank and honest, and that that applied to every party. I am glad to hear directly what the role of the NCTC was, will be, should be and would like to be.

Members are requested to remain, as representatives of the Irish Sailing Association have arrived to discuss the same issue.

Sitting suspended at 11.30 a.m. and resumed at 11.35 a.m.

I welcome Mr. Paddy Boyd and Mr. Garret Connolly. We are considering the Athens Olympiad with a view to knowing what supports were absent and should be in place for the next Olympics, and to developing a situation whereby all participants can have a chance to achieve their personal bests. If medals result or not, so be it, as long as participants feel they have had a fair chance. The witnesses might like to make their presentation on the preparations for the Olympiad of the Irish Sailing Association.

Mr. Paddy Boyd

I thank the Chairman and members for the opportunity to address the committee. I will shortly hand over to Garret Connolly, who was our performance manager for the Athens Olympiad.

Overall, the Olympics were by no means a negative experience for us. We took many positives from it, to which Garret will allude. One of the reasons we sought the opportunity to address the committee is that generally, during the aftermath of Athens, and subsequent events, public comment tended to be negative. It is important the record is set straight. I will ask Garret to sum up the approach, preparation and ultimate results of the Irish Sailing Association in the past four years.

I too thank the committee for the opportunity to put our views on record. Although we did not deliver quite to the level we had hoped, given the effort and investment put into our sport, the news was not all bad. We have taken the liberty of inviting the chairman of the Royal Yachting Association to attend. The RYA is the world leader in sailing following the Sydney Olympics, where Team GBR won five medals. We are very familiar with the RYA and we invited its chief executive to Ireland to talk to us after the Sydney Olympics to get a flavour of what was working for the RYA and to know if we were missing anything.

We talked for some four hours and I recall being very encouraged afterwards. Most of our thinking was correct, as was the direction we were taking, but the RYA chief executive felt its success in Sydney, on the back of an unsuccessful Olympics in Atlanta, was the fruit of a 16-year programme. After the Los Angeles Olympics in 1984, the RYA realised that, to improve, it needed to address issues to think in the long term.

I put together a two-stranded plan, long-term and short-term, and I am probably guilty of getting bogged down in the latter in the past three years. That is a mistake I made, but one we have recognised. We have now established a youth academy but are struggling with numbers at junior levels, as are all sports. We have, however, put in place a structure and pathway and we now know what it takes to deliver at the top level.

In terms of our performance in Athens, we did not deliver to the level we had hoped among our experienced performers, people who had participated in the Olympics at Sydney, Atlanta and even Barcelona. We had a twin-track approach wherein we felt it necessary to blood some youngsters yet at the same time channel most of our financial resources towards our experienced performers, whom we felt had a chance to deliver. It was perfectly clear to the sailors what they had to do to get the support they wanted. I think a clear difference will emerge between the review of the Sydney Olympics and the ongoing review of the Athens Olympics. After Sydney, the athletes were able to point fingers of blame at the system, the supports, the coaches and the lack of resources at their disposal. That will not now be the case. There is general recognition that support systems for the build-up to Athens were good; they were certainly adequate and positive. The excuses were removed. We were able to announce our nominees to the Olympic Council of Ireland on 10 June. At that time, we nominated six boats, five of them being ranked among the top 20 in the world in their respective classes. We had experience and youth, whom we call "rookies". I felt we had a good mix, and of those rookies several will go forward so that we can build on that.

If members ask me to pinpoint the reason our experienced performers did not deliver, I will say there is no "one size fits all" answer. It was different for each of the three boats. However, it is certainly clear there was a further leap in the standard in sailing in the three or four months leading up to the Athens Olympics, something I did not expect, since our sport has gone from being virtually amateur to virtually professional in a very short space of time. I did not expect to see what for previous Olympics would have been a typical leap in standard as people upped their level of input. It is now a full-time game, and I did not expect to see that. However, that was what happened and we did not manage to keep pace with it. It was not through lack of effort, since the sailors and I are happy they did all they could.

I recall a conversation with our sports psychologist, whom I had with me in Athens, about three or four days before competition started. His name is Brendan Hackett. I told him I was a little concerned that everyone seemed too relaxed. He turned to me and said it meant we had done our job. One could not be too relaxed going into an Olympic Games. I was now the one who should relax, and it was over to the "pitch" — the people on the water.

In summary, the committee want to know why, with the investment in sailing and our experience, world rankings and history of reasonably good performances — three medals in separate classes in world or European championships in the two years leading up to Athens — we did not manage to capitalise. I do not know, but there were several different reasons in the different classes. I hope, along with my own opinions and those of the sailors, we will get some answers from the review we are conducting.

It is worthwhile to have the Irish Sailing Association before us. There is no doubt that, of all the disciplines, sailing took a fair amount of coverage. Whether that was fair depends on who was talking at the time. We are coming to this with open minds and the goal of being positive in the future. In some respects, one has to examine what has happened to move ahead. I saw in the article to which Mr. Hickey contributed that he said we must analyse the sports that received the money and the false promises made, redirecting that money to the sports that will win medals such as boxing. After Sydney and the different reviews carried out in the past, everyone was striving for a better relationship between the individual federations and associations, the OCI, the Sports Council, the NCTC and so on. Unless we get relations genuinely harmonised, we may not make many advances. I do not know whether the association wishes to comment on that.

I have to refer to the comments of Mr. Hickey, who said we had consistently failed to deliver on promises made since Atlanta in 1996, with really horrific results. One question is whether people are peaking at the right time. Are they happy enough they are not under any pressure to peak before the Olympics? Other athletes might say to us it was so traumatic to get the qualifying times to compete that they left their best performance on a track somewhere without getting the recovery time to compete at the desired level.

Some sailors are competing in their fourth Olympics. It is probably one of the few disciplines where one can foresee that people will be with one for quite a while. It is sad to hear people talk about these Olympic Games being a preparation for the Beijing Olympics, since many athletes will not be there because the lifespan in some other events is much shorter. The witnesses are speaking of a 16-year programme. We have spoken to the NCTC of eight to ten-year programmes. I presume it is specific to the witnesses' sport that they feel 16 years is more applicable. Do they have any comment on eight- to ten-year programmes?

There has been a great deal of abuse of certain sports because they have received a great deal of money and not produced medals. I am putting that as a comment rather than anything else. I sent out questionnaires on behalf of the committee to the athletes and have received some feedback. One that related to sailing was that someone said there had been no individual increase in funding in 2004. The association may comment on this if it chooses, but the person said it would not cover one professional coach where other comparable teams would be working with three. What looks like a great deal of money to us outside the sport might not be so compared with the same sport in other countries. Are we being too harsh if we write articles saying sailing got a certain amount of funding while boxing or equestrianism got less?

Mr. Boyd

There are six questions, which I will take in order. Those relevant to my colleague I will pass on to him.

Regarding the comments made in public and the press about OCI and sailing's relative performance, we reiterate what we said at the time, that it is not helpful to athletes in competition to have comments made denigrating their performances. We would not like to see that occur again. There was a suggestion that promises had been made regarding performance. As everyone in the room here knows, one can never promise a performance on the day. The Irish Sailing Association never made any promises about performances. We may have pointed out to people that there was potential in the Irish sailing team, and there is no doubt of that. As Mr. Connolly has pointed out, we had six sailors in the top 20. One sailor had already finished third in his world championship. There was definitely plenty of potential, but no promises were made. We challenge anyone to show where we have publicly promised medals. That is not something one can do.

On all the sports agencies working together, we have had the most warm, friendly and professional relationship with the Sports Council since it was statutorily established. Our team managers have had a tremendous working relationship with the chef de mission. Some of the Deputies, including the Chairman, will know, since I was here last year in another guise as president of the Federation of Irish Sports, we are to the forefront in bringing sports together and working for the common good of all the agencies and sports involved. To use a sailing analogy, I suggest some of these comments do not hold much water. On the question of the average age and the fact that we would be planning for a 16 year period, the average age of sailing medal winners in Athens was 38.

It was just over 30 but was somewhat skewed this year by the number of individuals of relatively advanced age who won medals. It is clear, however, that the average age of medal winners in our sport has been rising. It is also clear that medallists win more medals. As the game has become more professional, people at the top of the tree have stayed on. In one class in which we competed there were gold medal winners from the United States, aged 49 and 45. Sailing is a lifelong sport in which it is possible to remain competitive well into one's 40s.

I was not arguing for a 16 year plan per se. I was saying our competitors across the water felt it took 16 years for their programme to bear fruit. We can establish a pathway to deliver in less time than that. At the same time it is good for us to know that age is not the barrier that it has become in other sports. People can remain competitive in their 30s and even their 40s. I suspect, however, that this will change as the last of the bigger classes are taken over by athletes, as such, rather than smart sailors. We can see the changes taking place. In the example I gave the Americans would have struggled in Athens if conditions had been windy. However, that is just luck on the day.

A question was asked about funding. There is no doubt our competitor nations across the water, GBR and Denmark, have done well consistently, the latter with a similar population to Ireland. There is no question it spends more money than we do. However, I would be happy if the level of direct funding for our athletes in the 2004 quadrennial was substantially greater, although it was sufficient to meet the programmes wanted. The difference is that the Danes, the British, the Americans and the Australians have class specific coaches fully employed by their federations. This is not provided for in our budget. In so far as we can, we have coaches on contract because we cannot afford to hire them full time which is expensive. However, we are addressing this issue.

Dr. Duffy would have suggested that we should be creating coaching pools within the country. We are trying to do this. However, it is difficult to do, given that there was no career pathway for professional coaches in sailing up to three or four years ago. Until we were in a position to hire coaches on contract to support our Olympic squad, there was nowhere for them to work. It was entirely voluntary. The position is changing but it will take some time. One can give coaches the tools they need but to have credibility to coach potential Olympic medal winners one has to have played the game at that level. The coaches of the future will come from the sailors of the present.

I welcome Mr. Boyd and Mr. Connolly. This is a good opportunity to discuss an important issue in Irish sport in terms of athletes' performance. I must declare an interest as I am probably the only member of the joint committee who is a member of a sailing club. I am proud to declare I have a national championship medal — I will not say for which year. However, it was won more than 16 years ago. I am delighted to hear of the gold medal winner from the USA who is aged 49 years. I still have a few more years to go.

I agree totally with Mr. Boyd in his assertion about the comments made during the Olympic Games about the alleged poor performance, promises made etc. Given that most of the issues the joint committee is dealing with relate to funding, it is ironic when we hear Mr. Connolly talk about sports psychologists. There is enough work for psychologists to do without the president of the Olympic Council of Ireland giving them more. It showed poor judgment on the part of such a powerful man in Irish sport.

I have three questions for Mr. Boyd and Mr. Connolly. We have already heard this morning a good presentation from the NCTC while Mr. Boyd referred to the good working relationship between the ISA and the Irish Sports Council. I am interested in hearing his views on the nature of the ISA's working relationship with the NCTC and how big a role it might have in the future. The joint committee has also had a discussion with the NCTC about long-term planning.

I can see from where the ISA is coming as regards a 16 year planning period. At present we appear to be operating to a three and half year plan, at Irish Sports Council level at least. I pointed out to the NCTC delegation that, in general, planning for an eight to ten year period seemed to be the way to go. The NCTC is talking about the broad spectrum of sports. As regards sailing, in particular, I am interested in hearing Mr. Boyd's comments on what he regards as good long-term planning. On the issue of funding, does he believe the taxpayer got value for money on the amount paid to the Irish Sailing Association through the Irish Sports Council? The precise figure escapes me. While I am open to correction, I believe it was in the region of €800,000.

Mr. Boyd

It was considerably more than that. Over the four years the figure is closer to €2 million.

I appreciate that the ISA's perspective on value for money probably differs somewhat from that of the taxpayer. I would like Mr. Boyd to expand on this issue.

I, too, would like to hear the ISA's views on the question of value for money. It is a good question. I also welcome the delegates and apologise for missing the beginning of their presentation.

I have one or two comments to make on matters which I forgot to mention to the delegates from the NCTC. As regards the British contestant, whose name I cannot remember, who was disqualified and then allowed owing to an error to came back and win, here was a man with ruthless ambition. To what extent is this quality present in Irish competitors? I meant to ask the NCTC delegates this question. The competitor concerned demonstrated complete commitment. What he did was commendable. He won and brought home a medal for his country. Do we have this type of participant and to what extent are we able to galvanise competitors along these lines, or is this important? Is the ISA motivated by the number of medals won or by a good standard over a wider group of participants?

Mr. Connolly mentioned that it was only in the past three years that sailing coaches were hired on contract. I imagine it is a difficult sport to coach. I have an interest in sailing and go out from time to time. While half the time I do not know what I am doing, I enjoy it.

The Deputy does not get wet.

I try not to but I do.

On occasion the Deputy sails close to the wind.

Are coaches now available on a full-time basis? I am interested in what was said about the position in Denmark. We should be in a much better position than Denmark which is the same size as Ireland but does not have the same maritime periphery. While one can do a certain amount with money, people must have the right attitude and the drive to win. Should we benchmark ourselves against Denmark? Are we learning from the experiences of countries such as Great Britain and Denmark? To what extent do we pick up on the work they do?

I join in the welcome to Mr. Boyd and Mr. Connolly. I apologise that I was not present for the beginning of their presentation but I had to leave to attend another meeting.

How many members and how many nationally affiliated clubs does the Irish Sailing Association have? At €1.87 million, the ISA received more in funding than any other sport, including athletics, boxing, equestrian, fencing and rowing. According to Pat Hickey, sailing was one of the five major sports targeted for the Olympic Games, together with track and field, equestrian and shooting. Does the association think this position is under threat because of the statement made by the Olympic president? Is the association concerned about this? How can it defend itself against what he said at the time? He will address the joint committee later and we will ask him the same question.

We have considerable potential in the sport. County Kerry alone has 300 miles of coastline. While there are marvellous opportunities available, there is an aura of exclusivity around sailing. There is a perception that it is only for those who can afford to participate. How is the association trying to reach out to the masses? Deputy Glennon picked me up a short while ago for referring to elite athletes but sailing seems elitist. I do not say this simply because Deputy Glennon is a member of a sailing club. What measures has association put in place to foster social inclusion? It is very important to know what clubs are doing.

The association has referred to the bringing in of coaches and its coaching programme. Does it bring in many coaches? Can it afford to bring them in? How many are available? If, for example, someone wants to set up a sailing club in any part of the country, how would he or she go about it? How difficult is it to become affiliated to the association? What conditions are necessary? This is an area of major opportunity, given the maritime resource available to us, on which we have not capitalised for sailing, surfing and windsurfing. We have ideal conditions for sailing which we have not fully appreciated, perhaps because there was an attitude to it that prevailed in regard to golf 30 years ago.

Is the Irish Sailing Association happy with the marine infrastructure in place for bringing people on, although the marine leisure budget was the first to go when there was pressure in the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources? Has it any comment to make on whether that Department should work with the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism to provide the necessary infrastructure around the coast to enable a regional spread to facilitate access to the sport?

Mr. Boyd

I would need the rest of the day to address Deputy Deenihan's questions in the depth they deserve. He referred to the figure of €1.87 million for the high performance side of our activities. The Irish Sports Council funds the national governing bodies in respect of their core activities in developing the sports in question. We have a full-time development manager who would respond immediately to anyone wishing to set up a sailing club. He or she would explain how the person concerned should establish a club, would work with him or her to tie in with the local authorities, landowners, sports partnership and the Irish Sports Council, to see if he or she could tap into the sports capital fund for capital projects etc. All this advice and backup would be made available immediately.

We have a comprehensive programme for reaching out to those who might perceive sailing as elitist. The reality is that it is not like that at all. In the constituencies of Deputies Deenihan and O'Malley and perhaps the north-west also the recent growth of the marine infrastructure has been phenomenal, despite the cutbacks. In County Kerry four new marinas have been built in the last ten years. These are essential. The lack of access points has held people back from getting involved. The marina in Dún Laoghaire was established only a few years ago and already it seeks to extend to provide an extra 200 berths. I hope the marina in Skerries will be the next to come on stream——

Mr. Boyd

——driven by the clubs.

Driven by Deputy Glennon.

Mr. Boyd

We have worked with the clubs to provide easy access for people from all walks of life to become part of the community. Places like Fenit and Skerries are very much part of the community. We are working hard to overcome the perception of elitism. I invite members of the committee to come to our boat show on the last weekend in February 2005 to see the activities engaged in.

Buying a yacht would make a change from buying horses and greyhounds.

Mr. Boyd

We have over 100 establishments which provide access to sailing, windsurfing, powerboating and jet-skiing. The range of activities is broad. We are working hard in this area. I could go into more detail but now is not the time to do so.

What is the future of the Jeanie Johnston as a national treasure?

That is not relevant.

When the Irish Sailing Association finishes, it might refer to it because it is a major national asset.

We are running out of time and the visitors have enough questions to answer.

She failed a drug test.

I must rule the Deputy out of order. We have other questions that are relevant. He can discuss the issue after the meeting.

When the delegates have finished——

This meeting is about the Olympic Games.

Fine, but we are wandering from them.

As we are now wandering from it, can we get back to the subject?

Who is responsible for wandering from it?

I digressed less than my colleagues.

The Deputy has made his point. We are wasting time.

Mr. Boyd

In response to Deputy Glennon's question, the taxpayer gained by the raising of the game to a new level, thanks to the expenditure by the sport and the Irish Sports Council on all the targeted sports. We have put structures in place since the Sydney Games. There are pathways people can follow to take them all the way to elite sailing. We have achieved value for money quite cheaply compared to our neighbours across the water and other developed sailing communities around the world. There is a clear path by which a person can enter the system, show some talent, say he or she wants to go all the way and be shown how to do it. He or she will be brought along the path and funded. It will be up to him or her how far he or she goes. This represents excellent value for the €1.87 million we received. We put people with potential in a position where there were no more excuses for not doing well. They could not blame lack of funding, the State, the Irish Sailing Association or anyone else. It had to be a long-term programme. That was the first step. The Sports Council targeted the five sports, and they have all raised their game to that level. It will become more sophisticated. We are in competition with other countries, and sophistication is increasing daily. We must run hard to catch up with it.

There was a question regarding our relationship with the National Coaching and Training Centre, NCTC, which is very good. The NCTC is implementing a long-term player athlete development programme. It waited until after the Athens games before implementing it with regard to Olympic sports. It has now begun with tennis and other sports. We are buying into that, and a meeting will take place on 4 November with the NCTC to look at where we are with regard to the long-term development programme. This is fundamental, because it addresses an area in sailing which has not been addressed internationally, namely how we treat young people in terms of their physical and mental maturation. Mr. Duffy referred to this. It is a key issue.

In a sport such as sailing, there is an element of danger and discomfort with regard to capsizing and getting wet. We must be careful how we treat young people so that we do not turn them off the sport. If we can create an environment where young people enjoy themselves without the stress of too much competition, we will get people into the sport for life. Like other sports, there is a fall-off at university level when other interesting pursuits begin. Sailing is unique in that people come back to it, because the physical requirement is not necessarily as strong as it is in athletics, GAA or rugby. It is important we work on that issue. We have completely bought into the NCTC's long-term programme, and we will be working with it.

We have concerns about relationships between some of the agencies. One does not need a lack of clarity regarding where things are and where they are going. We have used the NCTC extensively. We have used all aspects of its sports science programme, and would be supportive of the work it does.

Deputy O'Malley asked about the X factor, as I would call it. One can bring a horse to water, but can one make it drink? Ben Ainslie won his third medal in his third successive Olympics — in total two golds and one silver. If we could buy that sort of success, we would be at the door of the Sports Council asking for the cheque. It is something that cannot be pinned down.

Ben Ainslie will probably become one of the best sailors ever, if not the best. His track record is exceptional. It is probably dangerous to base policy decisions on such an exceptional athlete. However, medallists win more medals. Mr. Ainslie is testament to that.

A sailor in our squad, David Burrows, was in the same class as Ben Ainslie. We thought he was our best chance and targeted him for a top five position. He did not lack ruthlessness. If anything, a touch of over-anxiety in his desire to deliver tripped him up. We did not expect it, and neither did he. It happens in sport. Most of the people here are sportspeople. We understand that sometimes one cannot legislate for these occurrences. One can try. We tried to cover all the bases, but we missed that one and so did he. He will have nightmares about it, probably for the rest of his days.

Did we get value for money? I think so, undoubtedly. It takes more than athletes to deliver success in the Olympic games or in any sport. We need back up and the people to provide it. We are only beginning to find those people. Most are only getting into place now.

Let us not be too hard on the Irish Sports Council. It is in operation for approximately six years. This was its first full Olympic quadrennial. It took the view that it had three and a half years to have a go and see what could be achieved. With an eye on this building, it is easier to go to the table for an increase in budget if one can say "this is what we managed in three and a half years". It is a high-risk strategy, but worth a go, given that the council had three and a half years before the Athens Olympics. It had to do something. It put together a short-term plan and worked with each of the five sports. Those sports were singled out because people were in place and there was some sort of track record. One must start there. It was a legitimate strategy. Its approach now is to take a longer view, to push it out towards 2012 and 2016, and to ensure at the end of 2008 we look upon the Olympics as another event along the way. It is part of the pathway; it is not the endgame. We cannot think in four-yearly cycles. We must think in the long term, with these four-yearly events popping up along the way.

It was good value for money. All investment in sport is good value for money.

Mr. Connolly mentioned the Irish Sailing Association's good relationship with both the NCTC and the Sports Council. How is its relationship with the OCI?

Mr. Boyd said the comments from the OCI president during the Olympics were unhelpful. I was on the ground, and they certainly were unhelpful. There is no point in me dressing this up any other way. One of my young sailors, who had finished competition, read the transcript on the web that morning, and he said to me it was like shooting one's own soldiers in the back before the battle is over. By all means, have a court martial after the war, but not while the battle is still raging. It was extremely difficult for one of our teams which had not yet reached the halfway stage in its competition.

However, I worked closely with the chef de mission, Mr. William O’Brien, who worked tirelessly to do what we all felt we had to do, namely, leave no stone unturned and remove every possible excuse to facilitate the athletes’ performances. He did that to the best of his ability, and I enjoyed a positive working relationship with him.

With regard to future preparations for the Olympics, the Asgard has a major role to play as a national training vessel. What role has the Asgard in the Irish Sailing Association’s plans? Does it have any role to play?

Mr. Boyd

No, it does not. That concerns sail training, which is a different discipline from sailing. It is a completely different issue. Sail training would have no role, other than in the basic introduction of young people to life at sea.

Is there any cross-over?

Mr. Boyd

Very little.

I thank the delegation for taking the time and interest to attend the committee. It has had a long week, and was waiting for us since 10 a.m. The delegation's contribution is important, and will be part of the formation of the report we will produce. Hopefully, it can encourage many people to contribute privately, publicly or through questionnaires. The feedback we have received so far has been enlightening and important.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.10 p.m. sine die.

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