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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ARTS, SPORT, TOURISM, COMMUNITY, RURAL AND GAELTACHT AFFAIRS debate -
Wednesday, 18 Jan 2006

Breaking Through: Presentation.

I welcome the representatives of Breaking Through, a support network for youth work practitioners. The network is relevant to our work on drug and alcohol abuse, both of which are major issues for young people. The representatives are Mr. Paul Flynn, vice-chairman of the organisation, Mr. James O'Leary, PRO, and Ms Marie Halligan, administrator. I will ask the three representatives to make their presentation and then open the discussion for questions. The questions will be taken cumulatively.

It should be pointed out that while members of the committee enjoy absolute privilege, the same privilege does not extend to those appearing before the committee. I call Mr. Flynn.

Mr. Paul Flynn

I work for an organisation called CROSSCARE, the Dublin diocesan social care agency, but I am before the committee to represent Breaking Through, of which I am vice-chairman. It is unusual for me to be here. Normally, our national development officer, Ms Eileen Burke, would be present but she is on maternity leave. As she is expecting a baby at any minute, I have been given the task of leading this discussion. I will run through a short history of Breaking Through, including what we have done previously and what we hope to do in the future.

Breaking Through was formed in 1999, deriving from a European conference on providing services to practitioners working with young people at risk throughout EU member states. In 1999, a group of practitioners, representing the island of Ireland — North and South — came together to examine how best to provide services for practitioners and to identify the relevant issues. Arising from this — although I was not a member at the time — it was agreed that the best way to provide support services to practitioners would be to form seven local regions that would, in turn, provide feedback for a national committee. The seven encompassed every part of the island of Ireland, with the main focus being to provide practitioners working with young people with a firm policy base and to enable them to network positively within their own regions — whether in Dublin and its surrounding areas, the north west, the north east or elsewhere. In that way, local networks could be formed within every region to assist these practitioners, whether they are from large organisations such as the Garda juvenile office and the Health Service Executive, or from smaller single or double-worker programmes involved in Youthreach centres and Traveller centres. The system is designed to work across the board in all areas where we hope to provide for all such people.

What makes Breaking Through unique is that it aims to provide its practitioners with the ability to view young people at risk holistically. We all do in-service training and examine policy issues within our own organisation, for example, in CROSSCARE or the HSE. Much of the time, that in-house training or developmental work is based on the policy of one's own agency. Breaking Through is striving to break away from that and examine the young people at risk in a holistic manner. Therefore, at the drop of a hat — for example, by using the telephone — we can have access to policy information and other practitioners within our regions who can provide a holistic approach to the problem of young people at risk. Instead of dealing only with the immediate, presentable problems, such as homelessness and drug abuse, we are enabling practitioners within Breaking Through's membership to provide a holistic service for young people at risk and their families.

The organisation is currently striving to involve its members, particularly single-project workers and small staff teams. The people concerned do not really have sufficient budgets for staff training or development, neither do they possess the capacity nor the energy to spend much time on staff training, development and networking. We hope to establish the correct regional structures to enable them to have a greater say in what is happening. By working with their fellow practitioners in Breaking Through, they will be able to empower the young people with whom they are working.

In many of these small, not well funded projects — I will not say underfunded — the level of funding does not allow them to spend large amounts of time networking. I will give members one small example. In recent years in Dublin, for instance, we have organised daytime seminars and training events around teenage suicide and providing services for young, unaccompanied minors. We have also looked at young people in care and at the drugs issue in Dublin. As I said, we continue to strive to involve as many of those small staff team projects in these events in order that they can gain access to people and projects with much more experience and resources and, to get back to the original point, we can then provide young people with a more holistic service.

As an organisation, we do not provide any direct services for young people. As I said, we support our members in providing better structures and support networks in order that they, in turn, can provide a better service for young people at risk. Our whole network is based on a model whereby we want to be visible and vocal in the area of preventive work. We are not looking to form a network which will be very active at the juvenile justice level or at the child-family welfare conferencing level. We are trying to set up systems in localities and regions which will enable those who work with young people to form these networks locally which can redirect the young people with whom they work away from crime, drug abuse and other such activities.

We receive funding through the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs which funds the staff salaries and a small programme budget. That will take us up to November this year. I am not sure if the committee has a copy of our strategic plan which was the basis of our last application for funding. It outlines Breaking Through's strategic plan from 2005 to 2009. The other funding proposal in front of members is to enable us to begin that process, to build on the work we have already done and to fund that which we need to do.

We should get a definition of the term "a child at risk". What practitioners are Breaking Through working with? Is it working with local GAA clubs or HSE professionals? It would help members if that was clarified.

Mr. James O’Leary

There is no definition of a young person at risk. We could not define a specific group based on anti-social behaviour, drug abuse or homelessness. There are many categories of young people at risk. There is a belief that many young people at risk come from disadvantaged areas and other such categories but there are young people at risk in very well off areas. When the Chairman asks us to categorise young people at risk, I would say it is not possible to define it. The term "young people at risk" is used in the context of meeting the needs of young people who for some reason are insecure in their own setting or not empowered enough to be active, responsible citizens.

The Chairman asked a second question.

Are they young people referred from sports clubs or professionals within the HSE? Are they young people who have presented with drug or alcohol problems or who committed misdemeanours? That question is related to how Breaking Through defines the person at risk. How does Breaking Through target practitioners and which practitioners does it target?

Mr. O’Leary

Our current membership would consist of youth work organisations, members of the Garda juvenile liaison office and people from some organisations working under the HSE. It would consist more of professionals involved in interventions with young people.

I wanted to raise that question to clarify it for the other members. Mr. Flynn spoke of getting information. I am sure there are issues around the gaining of information and the privacy laws, and I am sure that causes problems. There is also the issue of vetting people working with children. I wonder whether there are any issues arising from this.

My main question is this. Given that there has been significant investment in capital, be it in community centres and sports centres, would Breaking Through agree that there are insufficient numbers associated with such buildings, that there is a deficit of personnel working on the ground who Breaking Through can tap into? Does the group understand my point?

Mr. O’Leary

Yes.

We have invested in buildings. Breaking Through is talking about organising the people who are working with the children. It does not work with the children. Will the Breaking Through group comment on how we can organise getting more people involved, and which is not based on year by year peace money, dormant account support or whatever? Has the group any thoughts on how we organise the level below Breaking Through in order that it has more members to feed through and make the organisation stronger? I raise this point because it is embracing a level the existence of which I wonder about.

I welcome the delegation to the committee. In a group like this the members can work together and inform one another. I appreciate that many members working alone often have no source of information. In my capacity as a newsagent, I found over the years that while I could get all the newsletters, there was nothing better than occasionally touching base with people who have been in the same position. Such assistance is invaluable. How many members would avail of this service? Would there be hundreds?

Mr. Flynn

In late 2005, we had 44 organisational members. The Garda juvenile liaison office is part of this. In a sense, every juvenile liaison officer can be a part of it. It is difficult to put a figure on the number of individuals concerned but there are 44 organisations attached. All staff within those organisations can have access and then can play a positive role in Breaking Through.

What would be a round figure? Would it be 100?

Mr. Flynn

It would be anything between 300 and 400 at minimum.

Ms Maria Halligan

Some of the organisations would comprise one worker. Other organisations could have a staff of up to five, eight or 16 and there are organisations with 50 plus staff. Taking all of that into consideration, Breaking Through could have about 300 members.

Is Breaking Through effectively looking for a budget to carry out this work?

Mr. Flynn

Yes. It is a programme budget to enable us continue because our funding is very low. It would also enable us to carry forward the work of the strategic plan, which is a great document on which our development officer, Ms Burke, spent a great deal of time. We need some stability to enable us move forward on what is contained in the document.

Anything that brings the workers together to share information is an excellent idea. The budget seems reasonable and I just wish some Departments could use the same type of budget. I am in favour of the plan and I recommend it.

I welcome the delegation. I will begin by outlining from where I come in regard to this issue. My background is community youth work in County Donegal. Those of us involved in youth work in County Donegal in the 1996-97 period decided to form a network of Donegal youth workers. Breaking Through embarked on its course in 1999. Prior to that, there were no support mechanisms or networking opportunities in this area.

I do not need to ask whether the network on which Breaking Through is working is justifiable or needed. There is no doubt that it is needed. Working hands-on in youth work can be a very lonely job in terms of being the only worker on a particular project or in terms of working under a voluntary management committee that may have its own story to tell with regard to support or the lack thereof. Breaking Through is, therefore, an effective group that needs urgent funding. Its membership of between 300 to 400 demonstrates that this country does not have a proper youth work programme or policy.

The Chairman asked for a definition of young people at risk. Every young person is at risk at some stage in his or her life. With respect to youth work, we are letting young people down. We look to the GAA, local soccer clubs, musical societies and other outlets to pick up the pieces. Voluntary groups pick up the pieces for young people because the Government does not recognise professional youth work as an important component of society and provision is not being made in respect of it. I have no problem stating this publicly. The problem exists and will continue to do so. We may talk about anti-social behaviour and problems among young people — such as suicide, teenage problems and drug or alcohol addiction — until we are blue in the face but they are endemic and will continue because young people who have left school do not have access to proper community youth work programmes.

Support is sporadic. This is highlighted by the fact that Breaking Through is supported by the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs. It is ridiculous that youth workers should be supported in this way. Youth work is important and funding for it should be mainstreamed rather than provided on a sporadic basis, where groups such as Breaking Through seek funding they hope will come through in November. It is ridiculous that the group must come before the committee and beg for funding.

Is that a question?

I will come to the question. A comprehensive awareness programme of the benefits of youth work must start at primary school level and continue through secondary school and university. We must follow the lead of our peers in Northern Ireland such as those at Jordanstown who have proper community youth work programmes to degree and masters level. We have no programme in our country and are letting young people down. For as long as we continue to let them down, we will have children on the streets every night.

I was in Buncrana, a town close to that in which the Chairman resides, on Sunday night. At 8.30 p.m. I counted 42 young people of an average age of 14 or 15 years on the streets with their peers, with whom they want to be. If, in this day and age, we continually fail to afford young people opportunities through properly managed youth work programmes on an out-of-school basis, we will continue to have social problems and let young people down.

I hate to interrupt but we have guests——

We certainly do and I can empathise with them. I hope I am echoing what they cannot say here today because they are looking for funding.

The Senator should ask questions.

I empathise with those involved in community-based youth work who are trying hard. They know that intervention and preventive care are best. All they are looking for is a proper, managed programme and a proper system in which youth workers and community workers can be employed. That is what is needed.

With respect, the Senator has been offered an opportunity to ask questions but he has not yet done so. I ask that he ask a question and have respect for the other members of the committee.

With respect, I do not see the other members of the committee staring at me with dagger eyes — they are not

I am not suggesting that.

They will not be mad at me. To be honest, I do not have a question for the delegation but I congratulate its members on attending. I will persevere in making youth work a priority for this country. It is not a priority, rather it is sporadic and piecemeal. Different organisations are trying their best to work against the grain but they are not receiving adequate funding. This is an outright disgrace. My party and I will persevere with our commitment to youth work and young people.

I welcome the delegates. I agree with their point on the uncertainty associated with funding. Mention was made of funding being received for the period up to November and I cannot understand why it was not allocated for the full year. We should take this up with the relevant Department. As the speakers said, the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs is responsible. I am surprised by this and believed the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism would be dealing with many issues. I remember that the Minister of State at the Department of Education and Science always used to have responsibility for youth affairs. This could be considered. Whichever Department provides the funding should make it available on a more real basis and not allocate it only up to November of a given year.

Reference was made to seven regional networks, Dublin and the delegates' experience. How does Breaking Through conduct its business with the organisations in the seven regions?

Senator McHugh mentioned alcohol and young people on the streets, in particular. This is an issue for the whole country. It largely concerns the opening hours of nightclubs and pubs. It is an issue which I know is being examined by other Departments and Ministers. It must be tackled. I have strong views on the way nightclubs are operating and on the late hours at which young people leave those premises.

We should not forget that great work is being done. One should consider what the vocational education committees and local authorities do by way of providing amenities and facilities for young people. One must also bear in mind the funding given to different organisations by the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism. It is not solely a question of sports organisations. I agree that one cannot expect all the sports organisations to deal with issues involving young people at risk. Nowadays an increasing number of organisations, which may be associated with a minority sport, and community organisations are in receipt of funding. I welcome this.

Cuirim fáilte roimh an toscaireacht. I apologise for being late. I did not hear the delegates' oral submission but have had the opportunity to look at their written submission. I compliment Breaking Through on its work. The problems and challenges facing young people today are so great that only patriots try to help them. The situation is not getting any better and we are all aware of the difficulties. No words of mine could express my admiration for what the group has taken on since 1999.

The budget is outlined in the submission but I assume that other grants are available. The figures are very modest because of people's dedication on a voluntary basis. If a body has dedicated people attached to it, there is always value for money. I am sad that it is necessary for any group of this stature to have to come before us to make a case, we should be finding out how to help by engaging with these groups at the coalface. The co-ordinating work is particularly important because there are so many agencies and elements and interaction between them is vital. The track record of this group, however, in the past six or seven years shows that it has achieved much of what it set out to do and identified the extra work that is necessary. The figure is modest.

I welcome the fact that the group operates with the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs because many of the people therein are focused on community projects and are aware of the challenges and difficulties. I have no doubt that the Minister will take on board any recommendation we make and that if the group has not met him, it should because he will listen to it.

The group works in both urban and rural areas. Is that within the Republic or on an all-Ireland basis?

Mr. Flynn

We work on a North-South basis.

That is wonderful. I offer the group my full support. There is a particular modesty to the submission, which is devoid of arrogance and simply states that the group is prepared to take on a role and it needs finance to do it. The manner in which it has outlined its requirements is so specific that it is not as if it is seeking money then wondering what to do with it — it has identified the financial requirements.

There is no discussion about young people at risk that does not involve existing difficulties. Many of the risks can be self-inflicted but most of them arise from deprivation because of deficits within a developing society. Young people are more isolated and vulnerable and the media is often the confessor in this regard. Some of the role models put forward today are not to be recommended. There are issues to be addressed and if bodies are prepared to take on any element of the work, they must understand it and be in touch with the people working in the area.

I again extend a welcome to the delegation. I hope the delegates' objectives will be generously and speedily met.

I apologise for my late arrival and missing the presentation. I have glanced through the paper provided by Breaking Through which addresses a serious problem in our society. It is encouraging to see that there is an organisation working in this area and calling for greater evidence-based information, etc. It will take me some time to absorb all the points in this presentation. The situation has deteriorated and more young people are at risk today than previously, for example, more cocaine is available at a lower price. Alcoholics Anonymous has been telling us for some time that its new members are younger than those who joined in the past. The factors placing people at risk are as potent as ever.

The British Government has debated this issue widely and recently announced a major programme to deal with anti-social behaviour within a family context. The Prime Minister, Mr. Tony Blair, said at a community centre in Swindon that young people at risk can be identified at an early age. This comment did not please some of those listening to him. As a former teacher, I know that any experienced teacher would recognise those at risk at infant level, for a plethora of reasons.

I apologise again for my late arrival. I will study the Breaking Through strategy plan after the meeting. This is important work and I wish the organisation well.

Some members said that Breaking Through should not be making its case here but they intended that comment to mean that this presentation should not be necessary. The committee, however, is delighted to hear what is going on in our society. It is important for us as a group spanning political and geographic considerations to see that help is available for those who need it. Every child is potentially at risk. Does Breaking Through pinpoint certain people, age groups, social backgrounds or is it all-embracing?

Breaking Through seems to want to be brought into the mainstream. The Department of Finance would probably ask whether Breaking Through represents all the groups supporting youth on the ground, if it could aspire to do so, whether it should be brought into the mainstream or if 12 different groups will come before it claiming to represent those working on the ground.

Does Breaking Through have any thoughts on how we can consolidate the practitioners, many of whom work on a one-off basis or maybe two or three together? They work on one year or three year contracts. It is difficult to bring them into the mainstream when almost every day a new organisation is established.

Mr. Flynn

From an individual worker's perspective we need to understand the position. For example, I work in the youth homeless sector which is witnessing high numbers of well trained professionals leaving the profession to work in jobs that pay less but are less stressful. That is the key. While the financial rewards are very good, stresses are put on people's health because of the lack of organised support and supervision. We are talking about victims of child prostitution and sexual abuse. Realistically, outside of their own confines, they feel unable to gain support because there are no structures available to them. In turn, well-trained professionals are leaving youth work because they feel so frustrated that they do not have any fora to enable them to move forward through these problems.

In the Dublin region, in which I am more active than nationally, we recently had a forum where youth workers dealing with children at risk and on the fringes of the juvenile justice system were able to discuss placement with representatives from the Special Residential Services Board, a member of Breaking Through. This is how complex it is for us. We have a national organisation such as the Special Residential Services Board which dictates where juveniles are placed being able to discuss this with youth workers on the ground. That the workers have access to these services and information empowers them. They feel they can deliver to their communities. We are trying to create fora where people can openly discuss the problems they have in their workplace and, hopefully, people who have had similar problems, can supervise them through these.

The beauty of Breaking Through is that it is not a single, task-orientated organisation or just a group of youth or social workers. We have members from across the board from gardaí to prison officers, from youth workers to people working in Traveller training centres. If a young Traveller is referred to me, I need to know what issues will arise to be able to deal holistically with this young person. Automatically, because of my involvement in Breaking Through, I can have information at the drop of a hat from four or five different areas to which I may need to respond. The crux is to provide ongoing support mechanisms for people. We do not want people remaining in these jobs if they are not positive and active. The people who remain in youth work are only doing so for the financial rewards because there is not enough support.

The Chairman referred to the capital investment in local communities. The national committee of Breaking Through does not send directions to the regions, stating this is its agenda. Every regional group is autonomous in dealing with its issues. Each area is represented by one person on the national committee. I represent Dublin on the national committee and Mr. O'Leary represents the midlands.

When examining youth work services and services for children and young people, excluding the at risk category, it must be needs-driven. Who are the best people to make those decisions? This process needs to be fully integrated and inclusive. We need to be involved with young people at a high level. The Children's Rights Alliance, for example, involved children in writing a response to the second governmental report to the United Nations. Nationally, we need to take on board that our young people are a great asset that should be used more actively. Those involved on the ground such as youth workers, social workers, child care workers and national juvenile officers have the most direct contact with young people. When decisions of policy or capital expenditure are taken, not enough time is spent liaising with the people who will benefit from those services.

I welcome the delegation. Breaking Through is a very good movement but it has not yet broken through to all parts of the country. Practitioners are not getting through to young people and it is a serious problem. Many have nine to five jobs but young people are most vulnerable from 10 p.m. to 2 a.m. and nobody provides services during those hours. Does Mr. Flynn have any views on services that might be provided at those hours, like hang out centres? Practitioners must work during those hours. During the day the job is akin to a job in formal education but a different side to people emerges later. Youth activities are mostly carried out by volunteers after 5 p.m. Many youth services are becoming streamlined and like any other Government job, practitioners are not available in the evening. I know of one man in my own town of Listowel who is one of very few people available to deal with marginalised people at risk. He organises soccer matches for young people but he is on his own, is not paid and must ask people for money to pay for the hall. It is a serious issue.

On what age group do practitioners focus their services? Is it on a wide age range or are they restricted to a certain age?

That echoes my question on the practitioners with which Breaking Through works. Are they professional, amateur or both?

Mr. Flynn

Membership of Breaking Through is open to any individual who has direct contact with young people at risk. We do not discriminate. There has been much debate on the subject. For example, our north-east representative, Mr. Denis Connolly, has worked hard in Monaghan and the Border region to bring people together, particularly through sporting organisations such as the GAA, the FAI and local junior soccer clubs. This provides a more cohesive approach than when one man tries to do everything for the various age groups. We direct our services toward children and young people up to the age of 25 years.

I agree with Deputy Deenihan that youth work services are not active when they are most needed. Some projects such as certain drugs projects have outreach workers who work through the night but they are few and far between. There is no 24-hour social services in the State, which I believe is unique in Europe. Until we address issues such as the financing of 24-hour social services for 365 days a year, we will only fill holes with a youth work service such as we have at present. All services should have the flexibility to respond at times of crisis. That will only begin when the State takes on board the need for social work services to be constantly available. This is not currently the case and we can discuss services that run from 9 a.m to 5 p.m.

I work in the housing estates of Dublin and this group works with youths who are homeless. Between 10 p.m. and 4 a.m., such places can be a nightmare. Nevertheless, young people continue to be placed in such environments without proper support. We are then hoping one youth worker covering 25,000 young people in a neighbourhood will make a difference. However, he or she will not do so.

Does Mr. O'Leary wish to make a concluding statement?

Mr. O’Leary

I have some comments relating to the remarks some speakers have made. A question was asked about funding. We received a tranche of funding from the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs. This money which was available to support bodies is our core funding and due to expire next November. The budget we propose in our submission relates to project work. With regard to future funding, there is another tranche of money becoming available. We are hopeful in this regard and appreciate any support that might be forthcoming from the joint committee in ensuring that Breaking Through will again be funded.

It is important to remember that this organisation is a support network for practitioners. It gives them a voice and provides them with a forum in which they can meet and possibly bring issues such as those being discussed today to light. I also wear another hat as the president of the National Youth Council of Ireland. Some of the questions asked relate to this. A national youth work development plan has been in place for the past two years. There was a 2.5% increase in funding for youth work this year. There is a need for the Government to commit, at national level, to young people and to the value of youth work. Issues such as the availability of practitioners for out of hours work at a local level will come from a commitment to a strategic plan at the national level. The service that is required will follow. This will happen from the bottom up if there is a willingness for it coming from the top downwards.

The youth affairs section of the Department of Education and Science is seen as the section in Government that provides funding for youth work. However, only 42% of the entire funding for youth work comes from that section. This should be considered strategically at a national level.

I thank the delegation for taking the time to come before the joint committee. I recall the phrase "holistic approach" from my teaching days but the idea of a strategic plan and holistic approach does not go out of date. The approach has been piecemeal. I am concerned about this. We need a strategy and my questions were deliberately designed to provoke the delegates to answer as they have done. I plan to write on behalf of the committee to indicate that this group has appeared before it and to enclose the minutes of the meeting to outline the support the group has gained.

I wish the group well in its work and hope it thrives and receives a bigger budget. This would mean that there would be more practitioners on the ground. I hope the group generates its own steam. I thank members for attending the first meeting of the new session.

The joint committee adjourned at 3 p.m. until Wednesday, 1 February 2006.

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