JOINT COMMITTEE ON ARTS, SPORT, TOURISM, COMMUNITY, RURAL AND GAELTACHT AFFAIRS debate -
Wednesday, 21 Feb 2007

Arts Issues: Discussion with Arts Council.

Chairman

I welcome the Arts Council representatives, Ms Olive Braiden, chairperson, Ms Mary Cloake, director, and Mr. Colm Tóibín. From the viewpoint of parliamentarians, the Arts Council has evolved into a very engaging group in that we have had good interaction. The breakfast briefings have been more than useful for most people. It has been a very good initiative and I thank the Arts Council.

There has been some improvement on the Estimates front and hopefully that will give the council an opportunity to move forward, although it never gets as much as it needs. The sub-committee and some specific funding were available to the traditional arts. I wonder whether this area has now become embedded, given that it was the pilot, so to speak, and we have moved on. Similarly, will the representatives give some indication of how the sub-committee on arts and education is progressing? They may not be able to do so at this point, but this was something we supported strongly at the time the Arts Bill was being formulated and it is of some interest to me.

However, it occurs to me that there is no fund for bands, whether marching bands, concert bands or young groups performing in the community for free, as distinct from professional bands. I have often thought that if €1 million could be set aside and grants of €5,000 perhaps were given to marching bands, such relatively small sums would go a tremendously long way. The question is whether the Arts Council has that money at present. Perhaps the Minister needs to do something specific in this area, in consultation with the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, given that marching bands are, for the most part, based in rural communities. Coming up towards St. Patrick's Day, there is always pressure, with both the Arts Council and Fáilte Ireland funding festivals to a small extent, but marching bands seem to fall between stools most of the time.

Another area I was asked about is the fact that some areas are well catered for in terms of music schools. Is there help from the Arts Council in the form of guidance and advice? Is there anybody within the structure who could advise on financial supports, if there are any? Can the expertise of the council be used to figure out how people might come together to form community music schools?

Deputy Deenihan is speaking on the Social Welfare and Pensions Bill 2007, so he will be slightly late and has apologised for that.

Ms Olive Braiden

We are delighted to update the committee on the developments in the arts since we were last here. I am joined by Ms Mary Cloake, the director of the Arts Council, and Mr. Colm Tóibín, a member of the Arts Council whom everyone knows as one of Ireland's leading writers. Following my introduction, Ms Cloake will give a brief outline on important research that we have carried out on the public and the arts. Mr. Tóibín will then address the committee and we will deal with issues raised by the Chair.

The funding of arts organisations tends to be the issue that most people associate with the Arts Council. While it is very important, it is not the only role. We spend much of our time on development work and on advocacy for the arts. One of the goals of our new strategy, Partnership for the Arts, was to reform funding programmes to make them more suited to artists' needs. Instead of one fixed revenue funding programme, we are introducing five tailored programmes next year. These will cover once-off awards and project funding, a small festival scheme, annual funding programme grants and annual funding for regularly funded organisations.

The aim of this change is to allow greater tailoring of programmes to suit the organisations. Up to this year, venues, festivals, production companies and all service organisations had to fit their plans into the Arts Council's revenue application process. This has now been reversed and the council is working with organisations to get the system to work for them. This has been very successful so far. One of the really good outcomes is our commitment to meet each organisation over the course of the year to discuss which funding programme would most closely suit its purpose and needs. Since I became chairperson of the council three years ago, it has been the council's objective to move closer to the needs of artists, to listen carefully to what we are being told and to respond. This revamping of the funding programmes will be a very good outcome for all concerned.

New awards and programmes have also been introduced for individual artists and we now have two application deadlines per annum, as opposed to just one previously. This has been welcomed by artists. The traditional arts were allocated €4 million this year on a three-year funding programme, and are very well embedded in the Arts Council. We are discussing this issue next Monday with our specialist, Dr. Liz Doherty.

The theatre awards were well covered on television last Sunday night. Nicholas Grene, a professor in Trinity College, was a judge at the awards and said it was astonishing to see the range and depth of plays, operas and music. This is not just the case in Dublin but in smaller theatres and arts centres throughout the country. That is a well deserved accolade for theatre. It is vibrant because of the extra funding we have received from the Exchequer with the help of this committee and because of the work of the Arts Council. We were very pleased to hear him say that at the beginning of a good speech he made that night.

The council has also worked to develop strong relations with the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism and with the Department of Finance. We have enjoyed many visits and occasions with our Minister, Deputy O'Donoghue. We were also honoured by a visit to the council by the Minister for Finance, Deputy Cowen. He is only the second Minister for Finance to visit the council in the many years since its establishment. Our relationship with the Department of Finance has been developing through our work on the artists' tax exemption and on many other issues, including VAT on non-resident artists. We are also working with it on whether choreographers and screen writers should be included in the Finance Bill 2007 to qualify for the exemption. We hope this will come to pass so that it gives further recognition to the work of these artists.

Following further significantly increased Exchequer funding this year totalling €80 million, we were able to support 313 arts organisations with €55 million in funding, an 8% increase on 2006. A total of 63 new applications came to the council this year from applicants who had never previously applied, demonstrating that there is ongoing growth and development in the arts sector.

We will be considering a draft of the report on education and the arts at our next meeting. We expect to receive it formally after May. This is the first time that there has been formal co-operation between the Department of Education and Science and the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism. If we are able to fund the recommendations we expect in the report, that will bring significant change to the arts and education. The committee will also receive a copy of the report once we have formally received it and decided what parts we can accept.

The arts and culture also took their place among many other facets of Irish society in the national development plan. The culture programme of the plan intends to invest €1.13 billion in culture. At the time the plan was being published, the Arts Council made a statement and I said it was very important for the development of arts and culture that annual budgetary resources over the course of the plan are sufficient to ensure that programming is possible for venues throughout the country. There is little point in having new buildings and refurbishing venues unless they are used regularly. For every €1 million spent on venues, the Arts Council would have to contribute €200,000, consisting of €100,000 for the venue and €100,000 for programming. We try to make this clear to the Minister on all occasions.

Annual funding for the arts needs to reach €100 million next year, and we spoke about this when we were before the committee previously. We are still considerably shy of that amount in annual funding, and we hope the gap will be budgeted for in 2008 to ensure we can support all these important projects throughout the country. Ms Cloake will discuss our new touring initiative, which is very important. We want to ensure the arts can shine on people's lives across the country.

An issue that runs in parallel is that of the media and the arts. While there are many good things happening in the arts throughout the country, this is not always reflected in the media. Consideration needs to be given to having arts broadcasting as a requirement for all electronic media. RTE has done a lot of chopping and changing to its arts coverage since last we appeared at this committee, and the jury is still out on how this has worked. It has appointed an arts correspondent after a gap of many years, which we greatly welcome. However, RTE needs to give the new arts correspondent the air time she needs and that the arts deserves.

Local radio stations are crucially important to reaching a wide audience, as members will know. We plan to work with them to ensure ongoing comprehensive coverage of the arts. This is the only way in which we can ensure full recognition is given to the place of the arts in culture in our society. Broadcasters' support for the arts has been good at times but it has never been central to schedules. This needs to be examined, particularly at this time of rapid and unprecedented social change. New local television stations are now coming on stream, with which we are very happy. As a country, we need to figure out how the arts can be fully reflected across all media.

I will hand over to Ms Mary Cloake, the director of the Arts Council. She will take the committee members through some of the challenges ahead for the council.

Ms Mary Cloake

As the Chair said, it has been a tremendously busy period in the arts throughout the country and at the Arts Council. All our efforts have been driven in one direction, namely, to deliver a better quality of service directly to artists and arts organisations. Within the past few months we have begun to widen our scope and to place a new emphasis on the public and audiences for the arts. At the end of last year we undertook a major survey of attitudes and behaviour, including patterns of attendance at arts events, to understand how people watch and listen to the arts, given all the new forms of media and the obstacles that people have traditionally suggested get in the way of participating in the arts. The results of this study were very interesting — encouraging in some respects and sobering in others — and they have identified new challenges for the Arts Council. I will provide the full survey to each committee member and can make available copies of the executive summary.

I wish to highlight some top-line figures that may be of interest to the committee. Members will know from talking to constituents that the arts have become much more available in the past ten years. A major finding of the report was that barriers identified in 1994 have been addressed and that there has been much success, particularly at local level. The arts are also becoming available in different forms. The survey highlighted that people purchase CDs and use modern forms of media, such as the Internet, podcasting and downloading, as new generations of people emerge who experience the arts much more readily and in different ways than past generations.

Ireland is a country that loves sport. It was interesting to note that three out of four people believe as much importance should be given to providing arts amenities as to providing sports amenities, although sport has a considerably higher profile than the arts. It is interesting that the public understands the important roles both arts and sport play in a well balanced society.

The most popular art forms were film, theatre and music, with attendance at plays in Ireland higher than anywhere else in England, Scotland, Wales or the Anglophone world, which includes Australia and America. Deputy O'Shea has often pointed to the value of the amateur sector in providing for this, which is a matter the Arts Council will seriously consider in the coming year. Another type of arts that is very popular is traditional music, with which the committee will be familiar. Its popularity, as Ms Braiden noted, has been helped and supported by the Arts Council.

To reply to the Chairman's question, the Arts Council is committed to not just introducing a pilot project and leaving it at that. Given the years of European investment, which was very welcome, there were many pilot projects in many policy areas but only a small percentage of these were mainstreamed. We now have a three-year programme which is designed to specifically support the traditional arts and to integrate them into the mainstream work of the council, which is our firm intention.

Another interesting finding of the report was that art in public places is very popular. We need to put an even greater focus on this area because 50% of people stopped to take a good look at a piece of art in a public space. We are not talking about people passing sculptures on roundabouts; we are talking about people stopping to look at, talk about and think about pieces in public. Therefore, what we put in our public places is very important and an issue to which we need to give careful consideration.

Ms Braiden spoke about the arts in education committee. Four out of five people consider arts education to be at least as important as science education, which is an important reassurance in highlighting that the public knows the arts has different ways of making a contribution. A more measurable contribution is that the arts are a powerful engine for tourism, with local festivals and activities being major actors in the local tourism industry. The survey found that people see the arts as a key factor in people coming to visit Ireland.

Another interesting point was that despite the busy lives people lead — time was the most precious commodity in the lifestyle elements of the survey — their involvement in organising arts events continues to flourish. I understand the committee has been concerned about the decline in voluntarism but 7% of the public, which amounts to approximately 300,000 people, helps with running an arts event or an arts organisation. It shows a tremendous level of engagement in a time-poor society that there are 300,000 people working on an unpaid basis to organise the arts.

The research has underlined the need for some new directions for the Arts Council. It has emphasised the need for a new touring programme. We have funded a touring experiment designed to support artists and producers to tour work around the Twenty-six Counties. We also have a link with the North, from where we are bringing companies to tour here also. We have already selected the first phase of this link, with eight groups receiving funding and a further two groups to receive consideration during the year. Overall, we will be spending €2 million on this programme to help organisations to take their work to audiences around the country.

This is an important step for the Arts Council. When an arts council plans how best to support arts development, it is important to think not only in three to five year timeframes but also in 15 and 20 year time horizons. If we consider the past 15 years, the Arts Council has put a very high priority on the local arts and an emphasis on letting each city, county and town develop its own unique and indigenous strengths in the arts.

Fifteen years later, we are looking at a changed landscape. New venues have developed. Almost every corner of Ireland holds an arts festival, as the Chairman stated. We have a tiny scheme for small festivals and we get at least 300 really good proposals for it every year. We can support approximately half of those, but there is also an excellent network of arts officers who develop programmes locally, tailored for each area. The local infrastructure is strong.

The excellent work being generated — the shows, concerts and exhibitions being created — now needs to travel so that those living in Limerick can enjoy work by the local Island Theatre company but also see "The Taming of the Shrew" by Rough Magic, while those living in Waterford can see Red Kettle but also Coiscéim touring with dance. This means that 5,000 people, rather than 1,000, will get to see a show, which makes sense not only for audiences, but also in terms of the value we get for the original investment in it. This will help address some of the geographic imbalances because some counties and towns are strong on drama and others on music. We hope, if we can invest in getting the arts to tour, that this will help even out the provision across the country. As part of this, we also want to ensure that the travel, living and working conditions of artists are acceptable, that all the venues are equipped with the necessary technical facilities and that the shows reach out to younger people, who, as we found out in the survey, are important audiences but also interested in the arts.

I draw attention to a further publication that we commissioned this year, a survey of contemporary music in Ireland. It gives important insights into support for contemporary music, which is essential in planning for a diverse and rich musical life in Ireland. One of the survey's main recommendations emphasises the critical importance of the agencies and the Departments involved working together so that the Arts Council would work closely with RTE, the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism, which is our parent Department, would work closely with the Department of Education and Science, and that the broadcasting issues raised earlier by the Chairman would be looked at by the two relevant Departments.

In a way, that principle of the performing arts being supported by partnerships in the public sector relates to drama education. Members of the committee will have seen in the newspapers the outcry at the decision of Trinity College to suspend its acting degree. We have spoken to Trinity College and raised the important issues of actor training and we are discussing on a bilateral basis what might happen in that regard. The wider issue is that to get proper education and training and formative vocational development for artists in the performing arts, there is a need for co-operation between the various elements of Government involved.

Mr. Colm Tóibín

I want to make two points about the relationship between Exchequer funding, as it comes through the Arts Council, and what results from it. The first is that it is difficult to put a material value on what happens as a result of this funding, in other words, the poems, plays and novels that come from this and the paintings that delight the eye and enter our spiritual more than our material lives. They are what prosperity is for in that people work so that in the evening they can go to a symphony concert and hear the best musicians. Arts such as traditional music or classical music, or the poems, plays or the paintings, are what we will leave behind when we go. They are what genuinely matters.

It is impossible to put a monetary value on the results of Exchequer funding as it comes through the Arts Council. All of us know their spiritual value and the importance to us as a society, especially as we diversify and become richer, of the sense of the goal that we live richer lives and the arts being an essential part in this regard. This is the first issue that is vitally important. It is impossible to put a monetary or material value on it, but it is easy for us to understand that the other, spiritual or non-monetary, value is enormous.

There is a view that some of the investment from multinational companies in Ireland arose only because of the tax break, but a similar tax break exists in Puerto Rico, Singapore and some of the Swiss cantons. If, for example, one opens the current issue of Forbes, the main business magazine in the United States, and looks at the advertisement IDA Ireland has placed, one sees not buildings or workers but the Louis Le Brocquy portrait of W. B. Yeats and talk of the Irish imagination. If one wanders in New York at present, one will see that the star at the Lincoln Centre is a young actor from County Cavan named Brian F. O’Byrne. Two weeks ago, I spoke on the stage of “Translations” at an after-show discussion about Brian Friel’s play and the issues it raises about County Donegal in the 19th century to a packed audience of American theatregoers. As one walks into any bookstore in the United States, such as the main chain, Barnes & Noble, one will see on the front table the new novels by Roddy Doyle, Patrick McCabe and Colm McCann beside the new novels by Norman Mailer and Martin Amis. Thus, an image of Ireland is being created in countries like the United States, which is important for us and makes Ireland a fascinating and interesting place for people to visit.

If one looks at the Irish actors working in "Translations", the actor Brian F. O'Byrne or Gary Hynes who directed "Translations", or how the writers came to have the confidence to become full-time writers, one sees that in each case the Exchequer funding through the Arts Council made a crucial difference at a certain point or throughout the careers of these people. It is not as though this comes from nothing. It comes from a great deal of public and Exchequer investment coming through the Arts Council, with the result of creating an image for Ireland that makes an enormous difference. For example, if one were to come to work here rather than in Singapore or Puerto Rico, which might have their own particular advantages, Ireland still remains a place for outsiders. It seems to have a sort of vibrancy and to be a place of enormous interest. One can put a monetary value on the result.

In two ways, therefore, we see the results of what the Exchequer has done — in one way, it enters the soul of Ireland and, in another, it increases employment and prosperity in Ireland. Speaking from the Arts Council's position, if one pays the piper, one gets this sort of tune in these two ways.

Chairman

The contributions show that we have been interacting so much because the Arts Council knows from where the committee is coming and we know from where it is coming. As an artist by background, I follow what Colm stated at the finish.

Last night, I met some American legislators who were surprised that one is not allowed to sing in the pubs of Ireland any more. I wondered was it so or was it that we still take for granted that pubs provide music and it is happening. It is part of the perception. If the perception does not become the reality when they arrive here, then we could have an interesting time.

That all comes back to investment in the arts, both from bottom to top and from top to bottom. The Arts Council spoke of five programmes for artists, rather than about the artists trying to fit into its programme. Issues such as near-rolling deadlines are central.

There was the sub-committee on the traditional arts and there is the sub-committee on education. Has the council decided yet on what the next sub-committee will be? Dare I ask whether the next sub-committee might be on arts and media or arts and health? I will take a few points from members and the witnesses might respond to them cumulatively.

Ms Braiden

Ms Cloake will answer the Chair's query on music schools and marching bands. I wish to clarify one of my comments. I cited screen writers rather than screen directors when referring to the tax exemption scheme on which we are working with the Department of Finance. The council has asked for the acceptance of choreographers and screen directors into that scheme. Perhaps Ms Cloake will respond first to the questions on music schools and marching bands.

Chairman

First we will take some more questions and subsequently we will revert to that issue.

Senator Ó Murchú

Cuirim fáilte roimh an toscaireacht. Although members usually hear wise words from Deputy Deenihan at the outset, they will be obliged to go ahead without his guidance this time. I am sure he will return shortly.

Some items struck me like a breath of fresh air as far as the arts are concerned. I refer to the idea of interacting with arts organisations to ascertain their thinking and the particular programme into which they would like to fit. Applications for funding have always been made more difficult by the requirement to fit into a highly complicated and convoluted application form. This has been highly restrictive for local groups that made applications and whose creativity has sometimes been stultified. Instead of receiving recognition of what they wanted to do within their communities and a response to their needs, in some ways such organisations responded to the Arts Council's needs. I am delighted to hear of this development as it marks a step in the right direction.

One of the most recent delegations to come before the joint committee represented Irish Rural Link. Interestingly, the debate that ensued emphasised the importance of engendering pride within the community. Although that debate pertained to rural Ireland, I do not simply refer to rural communities. Other issues were also raised, such as housing, infrastructure, etc. While I will not spend too much time on this issue, activities such as local drama, marching bands and other issues arose. The issue of marching bands has arisen before the joint committee several times and I understand Ms Cloake will deal with it.

It is important to capture the sentiment and emotion that exists within communities and to identify specifically the help they need in a changing society. I was delighted by the manner in which Mr. Tóibín talked about the spiritual aspect of the work and I could not have put it better myself. Ultimately, this is what it is all about. It is motivational and pertains to a sense of pride. There is still a need to identify the exact requirements of communities at present. Rather than being superficial or simply legislative, this should be a heartfelt examination of what is required.

A delegation that appeared before the joint committee representing the Blue Drum organisation also made similar points. It constituted a city manifestation of exactly the same difficulties and problems and I want to see the Arts Council in a developmental role, as distinct from merely providing funding. It should address substantively such issues and make interaction with such groups as broad as possible as it would be both surprised and delighted to discover the level of thinking that exists at community level. Encapsulating such a practice into the council's thinking would be a step in the right direction.

I wish to touch on drama. The word "amateur" scares me because, in the traditional music world, the apparent meaning of the word "professional" is that those so designated are better than others, whereas I have always considered professionals to be people who make a living out of it. Over the years, I have asked for such terminology to be revisited because there have been many examples of fantastic musicians who were regarded by their peers as being outstanding but who never sought the limelight and never wanted to make a career from their music. However, in terms of quality, such musicians were professional.

I raise this point in the context of drama. I am delighted and encouraged to see a resurgence in the support local drama groups attract from the community. However, there is a need to review how such groups will be assisted in future. Although in the past they tended to be outside the loop simply because of the "amateur" prefix, they should be brought inside the loop for a number of reasons. It gives them an opportunity to express their artistic creativity, which is important. It provides the community with an expression of its artistic creativity as such groups come from within the community. Moreover, it helps professional groups that visit a particular area because there will be what one might call an educated audience awaiting them.

However, the official sidelining of local drama groups over the years has led to the loss of a fantastic conduit to the world of art and there should be a way to come to the aid of such groups. While they have their own representative bodies to put forward their views, I have always found them to be at the bottom of the list, if they were on it at all. There was a fear that, in some way, support for such groups would constitute support for something that was inferior. I refer to the official world in general rather than simply to the Arts Council. However, I do not accept this view in any way. For instance, in County Tipperary, one can see the number of people who came through such organisations. Even Frank Patterson, go ndéana Dia trócaire air, came through the local choral society. In the past, how many others came through the drama world in a similar manner? However, we put the lid on it and much talent failed to reach centre stage subsequently. This must be considered.

Many good jazz musicians started in marching bands. I include my brother, go ndéana Dia trócaire air, who came through the St. Patrick's Brass and Reed Band in Cashel. He played subsequently with many showbands and with the Maurice Mulcahy Orchestra. Members should consider that many others entered the professional world as a result of learning the rudiments of the music in such bands. In a sense, they were being assisted by the existing structures. However, we forgot that they constituted nurseries for individual musicians.

At present, it is appropriate that great emphasis is being placed on communities, which can be in both rural and urban Ireland. However, by failing to allow for manifestations such as marching bands within the community, one loses opportunities to attract young people to come to the fore. For example, what better exposure is there than to be in a marching band at a local club final, a St. Patrick's Day parade or whatever? Youngsters are enthralled when they see a marching band, especially when they see younger musicians. It makes an impact, even if such players are merely beating cymbals, striking triangles or whatever, and such activities constitute a strong element of education. All members have received representations in respect of marching bands. Even if they have not, they would appreciate the importance of such bands within the community.

I will make a brief point as others wish to contribute. This also applies to the world of painting and art. I gave an example to the joint committee of an art exhibition I opened in a particular southern town. It happened to be a local painter and were I to name the venue, members would recognise the town in question. The place was packed on the night and I believe he sold 11 or 12 paintings. This happened about seven or eight years ago. He wrote to me recently. He is now an art teacher and has all these plans and ideas. There was no question that his work was good, but he also had the community insulation. In the same town, three days later, a show was held by another artist, an American lady, who produced lovely work. I think five people turned up in that case. I am not making an argument in respect of numbers, but the message is that the community will support its own. That does not prevent excellence rising to the top. It rose to the top in the case I mentioned.

Another issue might not strike the right chord. From time to time, I watch film stars leaving their handprints or footprints on the footpath. A councillor contacted me a few months ago with a very good idea he had seen operate in the US. Urban areas where new building complexes and shopping centres are being constructed will invariably contain a manhole simply because it is functional. The councillor in question thought it would be lovely if this manhole was a piece of art in its own right and if it celebrated one of the favourite sons or daughters of the arts world. This idea is worth looking at. Everybody will not be celebrated with a sculpture or bust, but would it not be a good idea to have perhaps five or six such features in an area?

I wrote to the Minister who directed me back to the Arts Council. This proposal should be seriously considered because we have so many prominent artistic people who we need to bring out. I wish the Arts Council well and compliment Mr. Tóibín on all his successes nationally and internationally.

Chairman

I remind members that we are here to ask questions.

Deputy Wall

I welcome the three members of the Arts Council and specifically thank Ms Cloake for the help she has given me over a period, which I have certainly appreciated. In presenting its case, the delegation spoke about the importance of moving the arts on. Local radio is vital in this regard. In my area on KFM radio station Marie O'Riordan hosts an excellent hour-long arts programme every Thursday. She varies the show every week and people talk about it because she has created an interest in it.

We will have a drama circuit here and we have an ideal opportunity to do two things. This is the first phase in respect of bringing drama to the wider audience in rural Ireland in particular. If we have some well-known names on the circuit, irrespective of whether they are young talent we should not lose the opportunity to get them on local radio. We should then use this to create interest not simply in the performance but in generally developing arts in rural areas.

When we look at the educational aspect of it, we can see that this is an opportunity upon which we can build. Both we and the Arts Council should put forward ideas in respect of schools, etc. Schools should be contacted when groups visit each area to see whether an interaction can be created. Local radio stations should also be involved. That interaction will improve the whole mechanism of providing arts to the people, particularly in the country. It is vitally important that we do that. Evening newspapers cover everything happening in Dublin, but this is not as obvious when one goes into rural areas. I hope the Arts Council looks at that aspect of it, involves local radio and schools and, in that way, builds up a far wider audience that would surely benefit both the visiting artists and, as Senator Ó Murchú noted, amateur artists in the area. It would create an interaction that would see major progress made as we go forward.

Recently, Ms Cloake attended the launch of Kildare County Council's arts programme, a defined programme that will do much to develop the arts in Kildare. The Arts Council should possibly be involved in gathering all of these programmes, which should be put on the council's website if they are not already there. The arts programmes of all local authorities should be included in the Arts Council's website so that people can see what is on offer in respect in their own area.

I could not support marching bands or pipe bands more. I recently spoke with Ms Cloake about a band in my area that is trying to restart after 70 years. I hope every effort is made to help it. I put questions to the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism who replied that something would happen in 2008. I hope this will ensure that funding is made available. If one learns to play a musical instrument early on in life, one will always have the skill just as people retain the skill in Irish dancing. I hope something will be done in respect of this.

Ms Braiden mentioned art in public places. I get annoyed when I see pieces of art on the side of some of our motorways. More thought should be put into placing this art pieces. They could be put near a lay-by where people can pull in and see what they are about. They should be put in some perspective. Simply putting them out in the country means that no one knows who produced these pieces and no one can follow the history. The pieces usually relate to the local history. The National Roads Authority and the local authorities should do something to remedy that.

I will return to the question of developing the arts in the RAPID areas where there are major problems. I was interested to hear the figures given by Ms Cloake in respect of the sports aspect versus the arts aspect. There are many areas in which we can develop art and offer alternatives to many youngsters who are under severe pressure. We have seen the movement of the drug barons out of the cities to rural areas and towns and these individuals are creating major problems. I can see how the arts can play a part alongside sports organisations in providing an alternative that can save many youngsters, which is why I spoke about local radio and schools.

There is a new drive in respect of the Arts Council going forward, for which I congratulate Ms Braiden, Ms Cloake and Mr. Tóibín. At one time, the council was a sponge that everyone squeezed for money. That is what it was all about. When people talked about the Arts Council three years ago, all they would say was that it did not give them any money. There were no other incentives or ideas about what was going on. Money was the only thing talked about. I am delighted to see that we are widening the scope of the Arts Council and looking at all these other aspects that can only better the arts and arts presentation around the country. I again thank the delegation for its presentation. The Labour Party will look at the ideas put forward in the presentation and see what it can do to implement them.

Deputy M. Higgins

I am not a voting member of the committee, but I am interested in the topic and am glad to be of assistance to our spokesperson, Deputy Wall, whenever he asks. I was pleased to hear the presentation and I could not agree more with what Mr. Tóibín had to say. To assist the Chairman in the management of time, I intend to mention a few topics rather than anything else.

What Mr. Tóibín spoke about is important, as it is a fundamental policy position to realise that the cultural space is wider than the economic space in terms of memory and imagination. It is a powerful presentational point for a country to make abroad. Governments argue the opposite is the case; that one can afford to invest in arts and culture when there is a surplus in the economy, which places the economy in an instrumental relationship with something that is more important, namely, the life-world of people across different generations. I agree on this subject.

I will make a few suggestions that may be worthy of consideration. I am disappointed that circumstances did not give me more time as Minister to work on the issue of income and pensions for artists. A general discussion is taking place in respect of the latter and projected future pension rights, which people have neglected comprehensively in terms of artists. One study after another shows that artists' incomes are unsatisfactory. If one accepts my first point on cultural space, one must regard the public contribution of an artist's work.

I attempted to discuss constructing a pension scheme for artists with a predecessor of mine, the late Charles J. Haughey. I was in favour of credits accruing from public musical performances or the visual arts. There are different ways in which to approach the matter. For example, a scheme should be established for writers in schools. There are ways to acquire validation so that older artists can live with art and security. At the time, Mr. Haughey asked me why I wanted to draw artists down on me, given all he had done for them and the little thanks he had got, but that was just a bad evening. It is an important point.

The interdepartmental relationship regarding the Arts Council is important. Concerning another scheme I wish had happened, I was in a small group with the late Yehudi Menuhin. I had a national project and was part of the European project to make it possible for every child to have access to a musical instrument. We do not often acknowledge it, but it is a fact that while we have a high ratio of GDP per capita, we are not next nor near the level of musical literacy in central and eastern European countries, which are much poorer than us. I support the comments of other members in respect of brass bands, where many people learned to read music. In the history of towns and cities, the positioning of the bandstand at a central place played an important role, but the sums given by local authorities for public performances now are miserly.

The musical instrument is interesting in the context of interdepartmental co-operation. After being contacted, a senior member of my former Department advised me that I was operating ultra vires when I proposed to take all of the many children’s musical improvement instruments bought over generations, which were in the attics of the country, have them repaired and give them to the people who wanted them with recordings of how they were played. I tried this on a trial basis, but I was quickly warned by a senior civil servant that if it was to be done, it would be done by the Department of Education, not my Department. This reminded me of the time I was the chairman of the Galway-Mayo Regional Arts Committee and was told that dance had nothing to do with physical education. Much must yet happen in terms of moving the Departments into the contemporary world.

I advise the Arts Council to consult on preparing a pension and income scheme for artists rather than having another report saying how poor the situation is. Unfortunate events have taken place in the arts community, such as the Competition Authority's decision that Irish Equity representing actors in pay negotiations for performing in advertisements is an abuse of its position. I do not want to depress people so early in the day, but if one were to examine actors' incomes, one would see how few actors make a reasonable income.

I hope the nonsense concerning the Abbey Theatre will soon stop. The existing building would have been a magnificent home for the touring company. There could have been all sorts of short and long tours of the regions ending in the current building while a new building the country could be proud of could have been built. My opinion has not been sought on this matter by many, but it was sought on the new opera house in Oslo. Perhaps my influence in Norway is greater.

On a controversial question, perhaps Ms Cloake might tell us whether the survey re the 1950s and 1960s joint purchase scheme for the visual arts is completed. Those of us with an interest in this issue would like an opinion on which companies benefited, where the collections are, what happened to the partial collections scattered across the local authorities' offices and what happened to the Irish Shipping Limited collection. The Aer Lingus collection, the largest collection of contemporary art, was scandalously instructed to be sold off. That we may need to acknowledge an inability to answer the question should not stop the report entering the public domain. There is a controversy regarding a Jack Yeats painting, which CIE stated that it used to have and the Arts Council remembers. A few years ago, a similar painting went on sale in London. It has the making of a good story, which could be the introduction to the report.

I wish the Arts Council well and it is good that our guests are in attendance. I also wish the Chairman and the committee well and I thank them for allowing me the opportunity to attend, as I do so out of my admiration of and support for the Arts Council.

Chairman

We have the start of a drama unfurling.

Deputy M. Higgins

A good documentary.

Deputy Deenihan

I was not here for the start of the meeting because I needed to speak on the Social Welfare and Pensions Bill 2007 in the Dáil.

I have been Fine Gael's arts spokesperson for almost five years and it has given me a good insight into what is happening from the top down around the country. Whereas much progress has been made, there is more potential on which to capitalise and latent talent that is not being expressed, a reason for which is the under funding of the Arts Council. I did not hear Ms Braiden's contribution, but perhaps she has outlined the number of demands the council has received this year. She has demonstrated that the council has only been able to meet a small percentage of that demand. The latent talent of all other people who apply to the Arts Council for support is not discovered and Ireland is losing out. The Arts Council keeps a tight budget and is accountable. It is doing an excellent job but is only receiving the crumbs. There is a small budget and massive demand and this has major implications for Ireland in respect of creativity and the economy. The arts are an integral part of our tourist industry. Most people come for our scenery, landscape, architectural heritage, culture and art. It makes sense for any government to invest in the arts.

I saw an excellent touring group of three young girls, Sephira, in Listowel last week. They describe themselves as a classical contemporary group. I asked what funding they received and they replied that they received none. They probably applied for it but do not fit into categories or pigeon holes of music such as traditional, classical or jazz. They were accompanied by their father, who paid their transport costs. They performed in St. John's Arts and Heritage Centre, for which they received some payment, but they receive no support. If they represent hundreds of similar people, they deserve support.

A programme exists for Aosdána and a similar programme should exist for "Aosóige". We should place greater emphasis on money in the arts for young people. Young people are very creative because they are exposed to more stimuli than my generation was growing up. Television is a major influence and shortly they will be able to choose from 400 channels. This affects their imagination and creativity. We must give them an opportunity to express their creativity. The Arts Council should develop a programme for young people to encourage them to make and appreciate art as performers, creative artists or spectators.

I read in a newspaper that this is happening in the UK, where cultural hubs are being developed. A standing committee on education in the arts has been set up and this will report in May. A great opportunity exists but the nation will not reap the benefit unless the resources are made available. Kerry School of Music is an independent organisation. I visited its building in Tralee, which is very ordinary and simple. I asked the director, Mr. Aidan O'Carroll, how many students attended. He replied that there were eight centres in Kerry, with 2,300 young musicians. I do not know what support it receives but this figure shows the level of interest at present. Parents have more money and want their children to play an instrument and appreciate art. Parents know that this will help cognitive and emotional development.

Ms Cloake referred to joined up thinking and interagency involvement. The Arts Council receives a small amount of the arts funding in this country. The figure for the totality of payments through other Departments and local authorities is not available. An interagency group, comprising representatives at the level of Assistant Secretary General from the Departments of Education and Science, Arts, Sport and Tourism, Health and Children, the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and Justice, Equality and Law Reform, connected to the Arts Council, should meet on a quarterly basis. They could examine the responsibilities other Departments have for the arts. This would be helpful because Departments could understand their obligations to the arts and the potential contribution they could make. It took some time to encourage the Departments of Arts, Sport and Tourism and Education and Science to work together on the standing committee.

While discussing the Arts Bill, I emphasised the need for a standing committee on education and the arts. There was supposed to be one on traditional arts, arts and local authorities and contemporary art. I argued that education and the arts is far more important. After three and a half years, these committees were removed from the Act but hopefully Departments can co-operate.

There is a good network of arts officers throughout the country. Such people are working at grassroots level and know more about what is happening on the ground than the Arts Council. They develop such knowledge through a network of councillors. Last week, the Minister launched the Kerry arts policy, a very impressive document. Despite the hype of the evening, the arts in Kerry receive less local authority funding than any other county. This point was articulated by the Arts Council when it met the county manager. The arts officer stretches her menial budget as far as she can and, as a result, there is a vibrant arts community, both professional and amateur, in Kerry. This is due to the influence of the arts officer, Ms Kate Kennelly, and the local authority funding. Could arts officers in Ireland be convened in a manner similar to the interagency group so that the Arts Council can learn from them?

What is happening with local music education partnerships? Has the Arts Council capitalised on the new Irish that have come to the country? I am familiar with some of them and they are extraordinarily talented in the areas of music and dance. Some people are very begrudging about the new Irish——

Chairman

Will the Deputy ask a question?

Deputy Deenihan

Does the Arts Council have a programme or funding in place to encourage this talent?

I know the Chairman is very anxious for me to stop.

Chairman

No, I am anxious that the Deputy ask questions rather than elaborate.

Deputy Deenihan

I listened to some very interesting contributions from members that did not take the form of questions. However, the Chairman and I will continue our argument about questions. We have only a few months to go on this committee.

I was a member of the NESC committee that reported on the issue of cultural inclusion in the arts. The report has not been published but is a public document. It came across clearly that if one wanted real cultural inclusion one would have to have centres in all parts of the country within reasonable distance in order that they could be accessed. Everybody cannot come to Dublin. One must also have professional touring companies visiting or quality art exhibited at these centres. We do not have a national spatial strategy for arts centres. Artists cannot travel around the country to each centre. However, a start has been made and the Arts Council has €3 million for a three-year period. Is this adequate? What is needed to address this important matter?

I have other questions but will not ask them. Time is slipping and people wish to go to lunch. Recently, a proposal was made to the Arts Council on Strickland's history of Irish art, which was published in 1913. An effort is being made to reprint this dictionary of Irish artists that, I understand, is considered a bible. The prime mover is UCD and the budget is approximately €500,000. The Arts Council should support this proposal, about which I also asked the Minister. It is important that the dictionary is reprinted and additions are made. There no reason it should not be brought up to date.

Deputy O’Shea

I welcome the chairperson, the director of the Arts Council and Mr. Tóibín. I wish them well in their endeavours and congratulate them on what has happened so far. I welcome the comments made by Ms Cloake on issues in which I have a personal interest.

Regarding the point on having arts centres around the country, recently I met someone who has been involved for a long time in amateur choral work. He complained that because of an increased use of professionals, good parts for amateurs were becoming more scarce. Everything has a downside. Does this matter cause concern?

I finished a report for the committee on the drugs problem in my area. One person who was addicted is now clean and things are working out well. At one stage during his rehabilitation, exposure to the visual arts gave his recovery a focus. As I examined this issue, I was struck by the question of why so many young people took up the habit. We must do far more research into why it happens. The spiritual deficit, a matter raised by Mr. Tóibín, is a pronounced factor in the Celtic tiger economy. In many ways, emphasis is on an economy rather than on a society or cultural space.

The board of the National Concert Hall appeared before the committee some time ago. I was pleased to hear it operated an outreach programme and got into areas where the arts, as in music, would not normally reach. Is there any work in hand in terms of the role the arts can play to give more meaning to people's lives and make a contribution towards steering individuals away from a wasted life where drugs dominate and they go down a bad path?

Does the Arts Council play a significant role to encourage creative writing in Irish? The availability of good quality creative writing must play a worthwhile part in developing, enhancing and broadening the Irish speaking community.

Chairman

We have had a lot of contextualising, as well as questions. I ask the delegates to pick out the questions and they will have a chance to respond.

Ms Braiden

I thank members for their great interest in the arts and the work of the Arts Council. Many of the concerns expressed reflect our own deeply felt concerns, not all of which arise from the fact that we do not have enough funding. The funding we receive does not cover all the requests made. We would not fund some of them, even if we had the money to do so. However, we receive very good applications across the arts that we would dearly like to fund but cannot do so because of a shortage of funds.

I thank all committee members for the great help they gave us in the last budget. We hope they will all be back to do lots of work in the same area for us. It is vital for us to have their support. I will pass over to Ms Cloake to answer most of the questions posed. She diligently wrote up replies.

I will answer one question asked by an eminent former Minister with responsibility for the arts, Deputy Michael D. Higgins, who asked about the joint purchase scheme. He spearheaded this debate in his first interview on the matter on "Morning Ireland". The Arts Council commissioned a report. We are glad to state that after 1974, all paintings have been accounted for. Prior to 1974, matters were loose and the paintings were not as appreciated. It is a long time ago and we are following up on the matter. We asked our solicitors to help us establish what rights the State had to the paintings if they turned up somewhere else. An exhibition of the paintings took place at the OPW's offices at St. Stephen's Green. There was a great demand for them from public buildings and embassies abroad. I do not know exactly where all of them are now; they are accounted for and well cared for. Many are in the Crawford Gallery. We can find out more for the committee.

Deputy M. Higgins

Regarding the works around the Houses, we might ask that the artists' names be put alongside. This is very important.

Ms Braiden

A further point was made in respect of sculptures along the roads and highways, the makers of which are not named and are unknown. That is an important issue to follow up.

I was asked about the next statutory committee after arts and education, which will be local arts development to expand the relationship between local authorities and the arts. The report prepared by the committee will address many of the questions raised today.

Chairman

Can Ms Braiden indicate a date for completion of the report?

Ms Braiden

It will be the next project to commence as soon as the work on arts and education is finished.

Ms Cloake

Where the Arts Council works with a local partner, such as an arts organisation or a local authority, it certainly supports community-based music schools. However, we must be careful when co-operating with the Department of Education and Science to ensure we do not cross lines. The Minister has noted issues in that regard have arisen in the past. In Portlaoise, the Laois School of Music was established by the local authority and received our support over many years through our funding programme for local authorities. The school is now very successful with a greatly expanded orchestra. Kildare County Council has also established a good music programme.

Marching bands are important and Senator Ó Murchú aptly described them as a certain kind of manifestation within the community. Marching bands are part of our programme of support for community music, which is intended to widen the scope of musical activities. The programme has taken some time to develop because we have had to focus our support on the musical elements of marching bands, even though other elements of the work of bands, such as the spectacle, uniforms and the discipline that ensues from their training, are also interesting. We are working on a programme that will focus on supporting the musical development of bands, with an emphasis on the instruments. We hope to have a partnership scheme with organisations in place by next year so that bands can, for example, find alternative means of acquiring uniforms while we support their music through people and instruments.

The programme will provide support for a wider range of activities than marching bands. It will include, for example, samba bands, which were popular ten years ago but have since become less common. Some of the better samba bands have developed musically by introducing brass sections. We want to support community music in the broad sense rather than limiting our support to pipe and drum bands.

Chairman

Deputy Michael D. Higgins noted the potential to expand the various schemes in place for instrument banks to include sheet music because a band may want to try something different after playing a tune for several years. If the music were recycled, however, someone else could gain.

Ms Cloake

That is a super idea. If we were to have a role in such a system, we would have to work with people locally.

Deputy M. Higgins

While I was in the Menuhin group, there was a line in a budget at European Union level for that but the most we got in this country was a grant for €10,000. I wanted to start with stringed instruments, so we piloted a programme in the south east. It was a good idea.

Chairman

As soon as the cracked violin is found in the attic, it becomes a Stradivarius.

Ms Cloake

Some schemes can grow from a small amount of money, but the programme in question needs to start on a secure footing with enough resources to make it work.

I wish to respond to the comments made by Deputy Wall on investments in RAPID areas for young people, Deputy Deenihan on a programme for Aosóige and Deputy O'Shea on the link with drugs. We have established an exciting pilot programme based on young people at risk that addresses many of the issues raised by the Deputies. We convened a small group of ten people who have worked with young people at risk both within and outside the arts community. As Senator Ó Murchú noted, the quality of the ideas expressed by the members of this group was impressive. They were mature people who developed their practice locally. The Arts Council has set aside €600,000 to pilot the scheme over the next 12 months and it will not be exclusively limited to young people at risk but will be open to the organisations working with them. The programme will be based on residencies because we found the experience to be better when artists were able to work with people in their groups rather than have them attend a show. I would be delighted to return to the committee with an update on the programme in one year's time.

Deputy M. Higgins

With regard to the arts therapy course in Cork, the Department of Education and Science will not recognise the postgraduate diploma for the purposes of grant aid on the basis that one cannot move on after completing the programme. In addition, the Department may not regard the diploma as a natural progression, depending on the subjects studied for the student's primary degree. It would be helpful if the arts therapy course were included in the progression for higher education grant purposes.

Chairman

That is related to the report I completed on the professional recognition of arts and music therapy.

Deputy M. Higgins

It is the same problem.

Ms Cloake

Local radio is crucial, so I was glad to hear that KFM provides a good service. Our report indicates that local radio is probably the main way by which people receive information about the arts and that approximately 90% of people experience the arts through broadcast media. It is an essential issue to address if we want to ensure everyone experiences the arts.

With regard to manhole covers and other public art, a precedent was set by the paving stones describing chapters from Ulysses. The paving stones were sponsored by Cantrell and Cochrane, whose ginger ale was mentioned in the book, and they are wonderful because they do not intrude in space in any manner that affects planning yet contain beautiful pieces of writing. We encourage imaginative forms of public art in partnership with the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism.

Chairman

I hope they are gum resistant.

Senator Ó Murchú

The members of this committee could be picked as the first subject.

Deputy Wall

I saw manhole covers in Bratislava that depicted soldiers with guns.

Chairman

While I was in China, I met an Irish man whose Chinese wife had gone to Europe to exhibit her collection of manhole covers in a major Italian museum. I used to laugh at manhole covers but I no longer do so.

Ms Cloake

Perhaps members could interest their local authority colleagues in the issue.

Deputy Deenihan made an important point about cultural diversity and the role of music and dance in bridging barriers. Such diversity is commonly found in arts festivals. The way a community expresses itself, such as the Chinese at new year, is best seen in small festivals and we have a small festival scheme for that purpose. However, something more formal is also required and we are in partnership with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform to that end. We are in the very early stages but in the next 18 months we will look at how to bring the value of the arts into the debate on cultural diversity. I will be glad to report back to the committee in approximately 12 months.

Ms Braiden

Can Ms Cloake talk about creative writing in Irish?

Ms Cloake

We support creative writing in Irish in two ways, although we would like to do more. We have a bursary programme so any writer who has an interesting project can submit extracts from his or her work and we will give him or her money to continue to write his or her book for a year without having to do any other work. Mr. Tóibín has sat on the panel for writing in English.

Books can be published but their distribution is very difficult and Róisín Ní Mhianáin, who used to work for Cló Iar-Chonnachta, advises us on that area. We have also had discussions with Foras na Gaeilge, Bord na Leabhar Gaeilge and CLÉ about how to market and distribute books better than we do at present. We have other plans, details of which I will be delighted to make available to members as they wish.

Ms Braiden

Ms Cloake might deal with the final point concerning amateur drama, for which we get many requests for help.

Deputy M. Higgins

I also asked about incomes and pensions policy.

Ms Cloake

We are taking action in that regard. Some of the studies to which the Deputy referred were commissioned by the Arts Council. We are aware of the legislative and regulatory status of the individual artist, which is very variable depending on the medium. We want to work with representative bodies or an agency and have considered a number of ideas. Creative artists can get a pension linked to Cnuas and we have been seriously considering other schemes for some time.

Mr. Tóibín

I would like to deal with an important point made by Senator Ó Murchú. I come from Enniscorthy, whose amateur drama company has won the all-Ireland competition many times. When one sees some of its productions, one is prompted to ask what is the difference between professional and amateur drama because they are simply wonderful. The same question might also be asked in respect of Irish traditional music where someone who might not make a living as a musician could be the very best in the country. Amateur and professional does not mean much in that context, which is something the Arts Council should address.

Chairman

We are delighted that the delegates attended the meeting this afternoon. The breadth of the discussion underlines the fact that people are very interested in the subject. We are all on the one side, but the challenge is to convince the people with the purse strings. A financial investment cannot be measured in terms of profit, which is accepted in sport more than in the arts. That is changing but must continue.

A person who went to a recent secondary school production of "Blood Brothers" said they had seen a production in London and could see no difference between the two, which shows not only the level of talent in the field but the commitment of the people involved. We all hope to be around after May or June to support the Arts Council with its work into the future. In the meantime, we will continue to maintain an interest in the arts and wish the delegates well in their continued work.

The joint committee adjourned at 2.05 p.m. until 4 p.m. on Wednesday, 28 February 2007.