Ba mhaith liom fáilte chroíúil a chur roimh an toscaireacht atá anseo ón choiste faoi chathaoirleacht Barry McElduff. In éineacht leis tá Francie Brolly. Chomh maith leo sin, tá Linda Gregg agus Kathryn Bell anseo. Tá fáilte romhaibh go léir. I welcome the delegation and thank it for appearing before the committee. I informed members when we extended the invitation that it would be an all-party delegation but I am sure it will represent the views of the committee. I invite Mr. McElduff to proceed.
Exchange of Views: Discussion with Northern Ireland Assembly.
Mr. Barry McElduff, MLA
Is maith an rud a bheith anseo. I thank the committee for the hospitality shown to us at lunch. We hope to reciprocate its hospitality in Belfast in the not too distant future when the committee has an opportunity to visit Parliament Buildings at Stormont and engage with the committee of which I am a member. We extend that invitation; cuirim an cuireadh sin romhaibh. Obviously there will be contact between the respective clerks to work this out in association with you, a Chathaoirligh. I thank the joint committee for this opportunity to address it. First, I will formally introduce my colleagues. Mr. Francie Brolly is an MLA for East Derry, a Dungiven man, and is a member of the Culture, Arts and Leisure Committee in the Assembly. The clerk of the committee is Ms Linda Gregg and Dr. Kathryn Bell will assume responsibility as clerk of the committee from 1 October.
The Culture, Arts and Leisure Committee has been in business for a year and five months. I believe "sport" should be included in the committee's title as it is in Oireachtas committee's title and the Department's name. However, it is entitled the Culture, Arts and Leisure Committee and it does exactly as its name states. It is a scrutiny committee of government in the North and we shadow the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure. The Minister in that Department is currently Mr. Gregory Campbell; the previous Minister was Mr. Edwin Poots. Both are MLAs for the DUP and Mr. Campbell is also a constituency colleague of Mr. Brolly. I was a member of the committee during the first mandate of the Assembly, from summer 2000 to October 2002.
The committee has been good at shining a torch on every area of the Department's remit; it does not simply focus on large subjects. Any scrutiny committee must be challenged to do that. Over lunch many of us spoke about Gaelic games. One would not want to talk about Gaelic games all the time in the committee even if one is sorely tempted.
Our committee was in business for four weeks when the first major legislation came before it. It was the first legislation resulting from the review of public administration in the North. The Libraries Bill provided for establishing a new library authority to deliver a single public library service. The library service is currently provided by five education and library boards but the new single library authority will come into operation on 1 April 2009. The Bill passed through Committee Stage with all amendments agreed and included by the Department prior to that Stage. There was a great deal of co-operation in that instance between the Minister, the Department and the committee. This yielded an increased number of board members, who would be chosen from councillors. Locally elected representatives will form the majority of the new board, which was not originally in the legislation. Following the co-operative method we adopted, the Minister and the Department can be commended for listening to our comments and taking them on board. That is just one example of the committee and the Department working in co-operation.
The Bill also provides for libraries to collect materials relevant to local cultural heritage. One or two members of the committee emphasised that point and it won favour with the wider committee. Mr. Nelson McCausland, MLA, made the point that it was essential to have a strategy and provision for collecting materials relevant to local cultural heritage. One might say that kind of reference had been left out of the original draft. This was a fairly considerable piece of work which occupied much of the committee's time over 16 meetings.
A proposed multi-sports stadium has been another high profile substantive item of business for the committee. Deputies and Senators may know that the Maze Prison-Long Kesh site was transferred to the Assembly Executive by the British Government and was identified as a site for wider mixed use but also as a site suitable for a multi-sports stadium in the North. It was the only site which initially emerged from consultations with many organisations.
Crucially, it is worth pointing out that the Gaelic Athletic Association, Cumann Lúthchleas Gael, the Irish Rugby Football Union, Ulster branch, and the IFA, representing soccer, co-operated and engaged in much sharing of expertise in their approach to this consultation. Collectively, they supported the notion of a stadium being sited at the Maze Prison-Long Kesh site. Everybody came at it strategically but also in the spirit of a shared and better future where sport could be become an arena in which people could share things and a new future.
For example, the GAA would have said that it strategically required a stadium in the North capable of holding 40,000 to 42,000 people. It had a strategic interest in a major stadium being built and so too did the rugby and soccer authorities. Soccer in the North is headquartered in Windsor Park and there are major health and safety issues. The IFA also looked forward to the notion of a multi-sports stadium.
Our committee carried out a scrutiny of the entire process and heard evidence from many people. The Minister, Gregory Campbell, is due to make a statement in the Assembly in September and has promised to share his decision with the committee prior to doing so. Given the nature of the workings of the Assembly — it is a co-operative model of government — Gregory Campbell will forward a paper to the Executive with a recommendation to go ahead, a recommendation to stop or a variation of both.
Our committee also deals with sport. Looking back at the Beijing Olympics, I was privileged to be here, along with Ms Linda Gregg, when the Olympic Council of Ireland made its presentation to the joint committee. It certainly helped my knowledge of any approach to the Olympics.
The London 2012 Olympics and Paralympics are coming up. The Paralympics are now taking place in Beijing. Our committee is keen to ensure there is a local legacy from London 2012 and that local athletes are as well placed as possible to participate and win. During the summer a committee delegation visited the sports institute at the University of Ulster. We were very impressed with developing facilities and services there. I would be interested to hear about the rest of the island and the type of participation and excellence strategies that are in place either today or in the future. I repeat that I was privileged to be here on 16 July to hear the Olympic Council of Ireland's presentation on Ireland's challenges in the Beijing Olympics.
A committee meeting has been arranged for later in the autumn with representatives of the London Olympics 2012 board coming along. Initially, we thought Sebastian Coe would come to the meeting but that may have changed. There will be senior representation at our meeting in November and we will hear details of potential training camp facilities in the North which could be used.
I speak as an MLA for a constituency west of the River Bann. Very often in Ireland, one has issues if one lives west of the River Shannon or west of the River Bann. I am concerned that there is a geographical imbalance in opportunities.
Speaking personally, I am keen to highlight, for example, that Youth Sport Omagh has an international eight-lane floodlit running track and excellent facilities which could be used in preparing people for Olympic Games or Paralymic Games in the future. It is our job, as a committee, to look at geographical imbalance as well and I am sure it is no different for the joint Oireachtas committee when it is talking about investment in facilities.
Under-funding of the arts and sport concerns the committee greatly and the decision has been taken to carry out an inquiry into this broad area. The inquiry was due to commence during 2007, however the committee decided to await the outcome of phase one of a study which the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure, DCAL, had commissioned into the value of arts and sport to the economy. It was called the ValCAL study. We were encouraged not to proceed down the road of an inquiry until the outcome of that was clear. Initial results of this study suggested that there is insufficient data available to proceed to a full study. The committee is minded then to go down this road of an inquiry over the incoming session. We will take it in two stages — a committee inquiry into the under-funding of the arts and then a second inquiry into the under-funding of sport. Before that we are looking at holding an inquiry on a relatively small but substantive scale, into the development of a museums policy.
The Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure has produced in draft form a ten-year strategy for sport which aims to enhance sporting participation, performance and excellence — it is about to release this in its comprehensive form.
Evidence heard by the committee highlighted the lack of a formal policy for museums. The committee has embarked on an inquiry and is currently taking oral evidence, commencing tomorrow. It is planned to complete this work and produce a committee report prior to the Christmas recess. Over the summer, the clerk, Ms Linda Gregg, and I took the opportunity to visit the National Museum at Collins Barracks to learn how it is managed. We were well hosted there and I want to record that.
The committee is working towards raising the profile of arts, and, in particular, amateur arts. Some of the members have exhibited a particular interest in the strength of amateur drama. It is amateur in name only because the standard is extremely high. We are asking a number of arts organisations to make presentations to the committee highlighting their interest in this broad area. We can anticipate some discontent with the strategic role of the arts council and some tension as to where the arts council fits in the overall equation. Is it merely strategic or does it become hands-on, or is that a remit for local government? All of these questions will be asked.
The Deputy Chairperson, David McNarry, a Strangford MLA and the Chief Whip of the Ulster Unionist Party, and I met with representatives of the arts council during the summer recess. We discussed ways of improving the working relationship and raised committee concerns about the role of local government arts officers whose job is to promote the arts in their respective council areas. The committee welcomed the Budget Statement of the then Minister for Finance, Mr. Peter Robinson MP MLA, earlier this year. In it there was a specific recognition of the role that arts can play in the economy and additional funding was made available for the creative industries, perhaps on the back of a strong arts lobby part of which included a march to the steps of Stormont Parliament buildings by representatives of the arts sector.
The committee is looking at ways to make the arts more accessible. The committee met with Mr. J. J. Murphy, a respected actor who worked for many years in the Lyric Theatre, and Ms Drew McFarlane of Equity. The National Theatre of Scotland was suggested as a good example of how a theatre without walls can bring arts to the people. The committee is looking forward to the reopening of the Lyric Theatre and intends to hold round-table talks in the next couple of months with representatives of the arts council in the North, the Lyric Theatre and the acting profession to see how this can be taken forward. Different people and different groups have different ways of taking this project forward. The lack of a local royalties collection agency was highlighted by local musicians, including Brian Kennedy, renowned singer, and Gary Lightbody of Snow Patrol who gave evidence to the committee. This is an issue on which Mr. Francie Brolly may also wish to comment as he too, as a performing artist, is owed money in terms of royalties uncollected. He may yet sing for the committee but the Oireachtas will be billed for the performance.
Mr. Francie Brolly, MLA
I doubt they could afford me.
Mr. Barry McElduff, MLA
The committee has raised the issue with the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure and will follow up the matter during the new term. I think it was Mr. Hugh Duffy from a similar agency based in Dublin who pointed out that when it broke away from the Performing Rights Society in London, it was able to multiply by ten, in year one, the amount of royalties accruing for artists. While previously it had accrued €2 million in a given year, in year one the new organisation had accrued €20 million.
On North-South bodies, our committee shares with this committee an active interest in North-South bodies such as, for example, Foras na Gaeilge. An Foras Teanga takes in Foras na Gaeilge, the Ulster Scots Agency and Waterways Ireland whose headquarters is located in Enniskillen. It also has a major operation in Carrick-on-Shannon. Our committee has received presentations from these organisations and remains in close contact with them. The reopening of the Ulster Canal is an important project North and South and is perhaps an issue worth discussing.
On an indigenous language strategy, an Irish language Act has exercised the committee and has been a high profile issue for it. The Department for Culture, Arts and Leisure in the North hopes to produce a strategy for indigenous languages. This will include the Irish language and the Ulster Scots.
On regional imbalance of infrastructure, many issues arise in terms of the distribution of facilities east-west and North-South. It is always worth keeping an eye on this in a sporting and cultural sense. I wish now to touch on the issue of broadcasting, a matter not yet devolved to the Assembly. However, we are all interested in what the BBC does nor does not present and whether RTE is available on all parts of the island. These are major issues as is the Irish broadcasting fund issue. The future of local broadcasting and broadcasting generally is important.
Building relationships is another key theme and is one of the reasons we are here today. We take this opportunity to invite members of the joint committee to visit Stormont Parliament buildings in the future. As Chairman of the committee, I visited the Scottish Parliament in June 2008 where I met the respective chairmen of the two committees dealing with arts, culture and leisure issues. As part of our inquiry into under-funding of the arts, the committee intends to visit Cork, previously the European capital of culture.
It did a very good job.
Mr. Barry McElduff, MLA
I look forward to meeting Senator Buttimer when there. We will also visit Galway, which bespeaks great strength in terms of arts provision. I note Deputy Ring, who likes to put the case for Mayo, is laughing.
That concludes my presentation. If my colleague, Mr. Francie Brolly, MLA, does not wish to say a few words we can move on to a questions and answer session. We would like to hear what members of the committee have to say.
I thank Mr. McElduff for his comprehensive overview of the workings of his committee. It bears many similarities to the work of this committee and it is in this regard we can, perhaps, work together. I think in particular of the Olympics and the preparation for London 2012. I suggested to the deputation that attended the committee on 16 July, which you attended, that it should network on behalf of the whole island in Beijing. There may be an opportunity in the future for us to provide those facilities. It may be a long way off, but in the run up to an Olympics, four years is a short time.
Mr. Francie Brolly, MLA
Mr. McElduff mentioned royalty collection which is something in which I have an interest. I pay tribute to a particular individual, Mr. Richard Abbott, who has worked very hard on this and Mr. McElduff mentioned Mr. Hugh Duffy's help. We hope that in due course we will have a national collection agency for the whole of Ireland because it is unlikely to be viable in the North alone. Although there are plenty of very good artists, including Mr. McElduff, there are not enough to make collection viable. There is no point in reinventing the wheel when we already have a very good organisation here in the South. It would make sense for royalty collection to be an all-island national matter and this is something we should organise. As Mr. Duffy told us, it was discovered that while royalties were being collected for Ireland for the composition and performance of music in London, we were losing a fortune to the economy and individual artists. The collection of royalties is, therefore, a matter of particular concern.
As a spokesman for the Irish language, I apologise for not using it more here. A mhacasamhail leis an tUasal McElduff, tá mé thar a bheith sásta a bheith anseo libh. I should mention what is going on with regard to the Irish language Act as I am sure committee members have some interest in that. Mr. McElduff mentioned the broadcasting fund. Broadcasting is not a devolved matter, but when Stormont, in the person of Edwin Poots, said it was not responsible for further funding Irish language broadcasting after 2009, we learned that the Welsh language is not funded from the Welsh Assembly but directly from Westminster. We have managed to sort out that issue. Gerry Adams spoke to the British Prime Minister and the matter has been sorted and we are now happy that for the next few years we will have Irish language funding for broadcasting in the North.
The question of the Irish language Act is slightly more difficult. We on the Nationalist side understand that all of these issues are difficult for Unionists who have a constituency they must look after. While we, obviously, push the fact that an Irish language Act for Irish language speakers in the North is a civil right, we are quite patient about it. Apart from anything else, as long as we have a lobby going for an Irish language Act, we keep the Irish language in the faces of the people. It is a great tool for us in that regard. We have approached Westminster to see if it will move on the issue because the agreement to have an Irish language Act in the North was made at Edinburgh between the Irish Government and the British Government. However, so far the British Government is reluctant to move on this.
The lack of movement is not holding back the progress of the Irish language in the North and every year we have more naíscoileanna and bunscoileanna. We are setting up naíscoileanna in the most unlikely places as there is generally greater freedom in the North now. In fairness to our Unionist fellow countrymen, there is greater understanding from them towards what we are. They are beginning to see that just because we want to speak in Irish it does not mean we have grown horns all of a sudden. Similarly, we are looking differently at the Orange Order and Unionist culture generally. All of this is in the great mix that I hope will take us to a better Ireland.
I welcome Mr. McElduff, Mr. Brolly, Ms Bell and Ms Gregg. I am delighted to see them here. Mr. McElduff and I work together on another body, the British-Irish Interparliamentary Body, which has worked well for many years. It provides for a great understanding of politics on both sides of the Border, as well as in Scotland, England and Wales.
I wish to ask Mr. McElduff about the state of the relationship between his party and others. Is there a party line taken on particular issues or is there a common approach to issues affecting a given regional area?
I note that the three sports organisations are pleased that a new sports facility is to be made available in the North. This is a worthy project which I hope will proceed. What is the level of co-operation on it? Will everyone use the facility?
In the case of infrastructure we have a big problem with a regional imbalance, one of the big issues in my region. In our view there has been a significant underspend of European moneys in the BMW region. Central government will always concentrate on the cities and the bigger towns, while rural areas are left behind. I will give an example of this policy. While the cities of Dublin, Cork and Galway were provided with sewerage and water schemes and major infrastructural projects, they were not required to abide by the polluter pays principle. We do not have such schemes in my area, although a number are now being commenced. However, the local authority is expected to provide 30% or 40% of the funding but the money is no longer available. Central government will allocate funding but the county councils will be unable to match it. As a consequence, central government will take back the allocation which will be spent in those regions which already have sewerage and water schemes and infrastructure. Are members of the delegation of the same view on how they should deal with this issue?
I know the delegation will be issuing an invitation to us to visit the Northern Ireland Assembly and I hope to go to see the Assembly at work. Is it working well? What is the biggest issue facing the committee?
At the last meeting I allowed questions to be grouped. We can do so again today, by agreement. Would the delegation prefer to answer questions one at a time?
I have no objection today because this meeting is not contentious. However, I will not allow it to happen in future. At a previous meeting of the committee I put a number of questions to the Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív. Ten others spoke after me and it was only after he had left the meeting that I realised he had not answered my questions. I am my party's spokesman and it will not happen to me again. I do not mind today because this is not a political debate but in future when I ask questions, I will want the Minister to answer them. He slipped under the radar on the last occasion. What happens is that all the ladies and boys are lined up to ask questions, he answers the easy ones and then walks out the door. In future my questions will be answered, even if they are regarded as stupid.
Is mian liom céad míle fáilte a chuir roimh an toscaireacht. Cuireann sé gliondar croí orm go pearsanta go bhfuil an cruinniú seo ar siúl. Tá sé soiléir gur féidir linn dul chun cinn a dhéanamh, go mórmhór de réir an dearcadh a luaigh Francie Brolly. Aontaím go bhfuil sé in am dúinn comhoibriú le chéile — is ar scáth a chéile a mhaireann na daoine.
In many ways I heard both representatives talk about co-operation and mutual understanding, which is the right way forward, particularly given the portfolio of the Northern Ireland Assembly Committee on Culture, Arts and Leisure. In the new dispensation that exists in Northern Ireland there is a great opportunity to enrich each other's traditions. In the past we paid lip service to it. However, now there is a formal manner for doing it. There is also a will to do it. From my experience of traditional music over the years it was never politicised and belonged to all the people. They participated from both sides of the community. Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann always had a representative of the Counties Antrim and Derry Fiddlers' Association on its ard-chomhairle. I can see it at the fleadh cheoil to this day. I remember the late John Healy writing in The Irish Times about the fleadh cheoil referring to both sides of the community coming from the North celebrating through the music the richness and understanding of each other’s background and aspirations.
I draw great encouragement from discovering that the Northern Ireland Assembly Committee on Culture, Arts and Leisure has the same problems that we have, including the need for additional funding for areas of arts, culture, leisure and sport. A good job has been done here regarding the level of funding provided. However, that only came from people continuing to make their case. If the case is not made it is possible to be sidelined by those who manifest themselves more in another activity. I am glad the Northern Ireland Assembly Committee on Culture, Arts and Leisure is focusing on that area.
I am particularly glad to have heard the witnesses refer to the amateur arts. It is a misnomer to call them that. Representatives of the Arts Council have appeared before this committee on several occasions. I needed to make the point that when using the word "professional" it should not relate to standard as that is not what is meant. The word used should be "commercial". It is possible to be very professional. Colm Tóibín from Wexford was exceptionally good at this meeting. He gave an instance from his home town of Enniscorthy. He made the point that he agreed fully that it is not possible to call a person amateur or professional in the context of standard. It could happen that somebody of the highest standard in writing, music or whatever could make a decision not to make a full-time career of it. We need to use a new terminology to readjust ourselves. We also need to readjust the funding. I am glad that the Northern Ireland Assembly Committee on Culture, Arts and Leisure would echo much of what people down here believe.
The emphasis must be on community. By talking about community art or community culture it is not possible to go far wrong. A community is a minuscule manifestation of what a country or a nation is. Generally the interaction will create its own balance. That balance is not always achieved in official circles or through formalities but is achieved in communities. If one uses the term "community" and supports community activities where art and culture is concerned, that is one way to get over a legacy that has been handed down to us on the whole island through the years.
Regarding Gaeilge, the Irish language, many people who are interested in the welfare of the Irish language are now looking to the North for guidance. There is a resurgence there which is quite evident, with or without a language Act. People are now rearing their families through Irish. Many gaelscoileanna are coming into existence. There is a freshness of which we could do with more down here. For that reason we tend to look to Northern Ireland to see what it is achieving. Some areas in the North of Ireland could be considered to be a mini-Gaeltacht. That took much planning. It involved providing houses and other infrastructure. Those involved have made a significant investment, through their families, in ensuring the language will continue into the future.
I wish to conclude by talking about the issue of copyright and royalties. Mr. Duffy who played a major role in this regard has been mentioned. He was particularly good during consultation. I am not sure whether there is a relationship with the Irish Music Rights Organisation which tries to provide a service for the whole island. It has examined the possibility of providing a service in the United States and elsewhere. Perhaps the relevant organisation in London has already established itself and is not prepared to cede any ground. Local musicians involved in commercial activity will have a much better chance of getting answers in a transparent manner if the organisation representing them is based on this island. It would be great if an all-island body, along the lines of Tourism Ireland, could be established. It would be the best way in which to proceed. The infrastructure would be the same. Nobody can suggest one's artistic involvement changes in any way when one crosses a line on this island. Perhaps we should follow the road I have set out.
I thank the delegation for giving the committee an excellent overview of the matters under discussion. I was impressed by the presentation. I wish Ms Gregg the very best when she steps down. I look forward to meeting Dr. Bell again in the future.
I welcome the delegation from the Northern Ireland committee. I thank the representatives of that committee for the articulate overview of the role they play in Northern Ireland. I do not want to repeat the questions other members of this committee have asked. I will confine myself to a couple of issues that arise from the presentation.
Mr. McElduff spoke about the new stadium project that may be pursued at the site of the old Maze Prison. He has mentioned that the relevant Minister is to make a decision shortly. Is it likely that he will decide to proceed with the project? It appears that some of the sports bodies have been more co-operative than others. I understand the GAA has guaranteed that a number of games will be played there each season. It seems the IRFU and the IFA have not given similar commitments. Perhaps my information in that regard is wrong.
Mr. McElduff also spoke about the need to co-operate in advance of the 2012 Olympic Games. It has recently been suggested the State could provide facilities for teams preparing for the London games. We could cash in on the teams that will be looking for somewhere to train. Does Mr. McElduff believe such endeavours would benefit from North-South co-operation? I was delighted to hear the Minister in this jurisdiction say, in the aftermath of the Beijing games, that some of the facilities which need to be developed to attract such business to Ireland would not suffer as a result of the cutbacks that need to be implemented here. I wait with bated breath to hear whether such projects will go ahead.
I am aware that the remit of the culture, arts and leisure committee does not extend to broadcasting. However, Mr. McElduff referred to RTE coverage in the North. Is RTE unavailable in a large part of the North? If so, it is obvious that this problem should be corrected quickly. Having contacted RTE, I understand some efforts are being made in that regard. What is the current position?
I ask Mr. McElduff to respond to the various questions.
Mr. Barry McElduff, MLA
I thank members of the committee for their questions. Deputy Ring asked about how well the committee was working. The culture, arts and leisure committee meets every Thursday morning in the Parliament Buildings at Stormont, usually room 152. We are 11 members supported by a committee staff of four. The committee is made up of three DUP members, three Sinn Féin members, two SDLP members, two Ulster Unionist Party members and an Alliance Party member. The deputy chairperson is Mr. David McNarry, a member of the Ulster Unionist Party.
Our committee works well. There is a good level of attendance and a good level of engagement. There is also a lot of straight talking. Our committee engages in work that helps to break down barriers. For example, over the summer I had the opportunity to visit Ravenhill, the home of Ulster rugby. I did not have that opportunity previously. Similarly, the Minister, Mr. Edwin Poots, the predecessor of Mr. Gregory Campbell, took the historic step of attending a Gaelic football match in Newry between Down and Donegal. He also attended a community development conference organised by the GAA. Those things are significant in the context of society in the North.
Our committee is one of the more interesting committees in Stormont. One can sense that in the building, even among officials. They say things such as "We are up there talking about finance and personnel and you have Brian Kennedy in a room 152 singing to you." We like to invite celebrities on occasion. I am sure it is a tactic employed by this committee also. We heard that when the relevant committee was examining sport in Edinburgh the athlete Liz McColgan was invited to make a statement about the importance of sport in people's lives. That approach always makes things more interesting.
We work well but we disagree a lot. That said, we also agree a lot. That is how it should be. I would love to engage in some anecdotes in that regard but I probably should not. Wiser counsel would tell me not to do so. Mr. David McNarry is a very strong vice chairman who cannot be accused of not being sufficiently interrogative whenever officials come before the committee. He would probably take that as a compliment. That is the way it is. The fact that we meet every week for three hours leads to an improvement in personal relationships and that can only bode well for political progress. We are co-operative.
Whether the Maze-Long Kesh stadium will go ahead is currently in the gift of the Minister, Mr. Gregory Campbell. I would say to Deputy O'Mahony that the three bodies have co-operated fully. Mr. Michael Reid, the chief executive of the rugby association, Mr. Howard Wells, the IFA chief executive, or Mr. Danny Murphy, the GAA Ulster council secretary, have worked very well together and are fully supportive of a multi-sports stadium. While the location is divisive, it is as much a battle between Belfast and Lisburn for a major facility as anything else. That competition was evident recently between Belfast, Lisburn and Dublin on the possible location of a John Lewis store.
There is division along party lines but within the Ulster Unionist Party and the DUP the differences tend to be along Belfast-Lisburn lines. That said, to be fair to Mr. David McNarry, who is very interrogative on the subject, he has repeatedly said he reserves his position on the matter. However, society wants us to move on and reach a decision. There is a feeling that opportunities are being lost ahead of the 2012 Olympics as the ability to attract major competitions is linked to the availability of a major stadium. Working relations in the committee are good. It does not mean we agree on everything. I would be surprised if this committee agreed on everything.
I was interested by Senator Ó Murchú's statement on the sharing of cultural wealth. I was delighted the Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann Macalla na hÉireann made its way to the Great Hall in Stormont's parliament buildings. That was one of the top three evenings held there in the past three years. I am not biased but the Tyrone football team's homecoming in Stormont in 2003 definitely registered, as did that of the Armagh football team. We are interested in making the Great Hall and the Long Gallery available for artistic performances. Dan Gordon, a playwright and actor, recently took a group of young prisoners to the play, "Observe the Sons of Ulster Marching Towards the Somme". We have asked him to use the facilities in Stormont to raise the profile of the arts.
The Northern Ireland Assembly does not have tax-raising powers so it is restricted in what it can do. We are hearing from people involved in sports and arts about enlightened approaches to tax incentives and other schemes which have originated from the Oireachtas. Many of these schemes are attributed to Deputy Michael D. Higgins and other Ministers who were perceived to be enlightened in the arts. I do not want to be too partisan but Charlie McCreevy's name comes up a lot for his incentives for sports stars and artists.
People, North and South, want to know how the Arts Council spends its money and want a greater say in that. Mr. Francie Brolly, MLA, will respond the questions about IMRO. Hugh Duffy brought much experience of IMRO to the committee.
Regarding the London Olympics in 2012, the island of Ireland should position itself to win advantages. In the North, people are concerned about the sporting infrastructure in the community and that national lottery funding for sport has been diverted to the Olympics. Building the sports infrastructure in London will mean losses and hits for other areas. I know sports organisations on the ground are concerned about limited funding for capital development. I read the Donegal Democrat and The Northern Standard and have noted the announcements of sports capital development in the South which are not matched in the North. I believe the respective Ministers, Deputy Martin Cullen and Gregory Campbell, MLA, should be lobbied at the North-South Ministerial Council to create a joint legacy throughout the island of Ireland pertaining to 2012 Olympics.
The spectre of a lack of RTE coverage in the North looms with the 2011 digital switchover. Not everyone will have access to RTE and this is a large issue in the North. I have written to the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Ryan, requesting a meeting on this matter.
On the issue of Belfast versus Lisburn, the rural-urban aspect guides some people's attitudes to the location of a multisports stadium. Ms Gregg, Mr. McNarry, Lord Browne and I met none other than Mr. David Humphreys at Ravenhill. It was stated Ulster Rugby felt the loss of star players, whereas Munster Rugby tends not to lose its star players to Leicester or other big teams because of tax incentives in the South that benefit our sports stars. In the North there are no similar incentives in legislation. A good player in Ulster could be snapped up by a big team in England.
Mr. Francie Brolly
The meeting is considering how things are beginning to develop in the North, how attitudes are softening and people are mixing better together. A GAA club formed ten years ago in Belfast, St. Brigid's, is opening new grounds on Saturday week and the Minister for Culture, Arts and Leisure. Dr. Campbell, will be in the official opening party.
Much has happened that we could not have dreamed would happen. We have begun to sit down together at meetings and it is a great pleasure to attend the culture, arts and leisure committee meetings. Mr. McElduff is an able chairman and well able to deal with matters when there are hackles. The Irish language will largely be mentioned from one side of the house. While individuals on the other side say they have nothing against the Irish language, they argue Ulster Scots must have parity. By and large, everything is going well.
On the attitudes of the three sports organisations to a new stadium, it is a given that rugby needs a stadium. As Mr. McElduff, when a big game, an inter-provincial match for example, is played at the grounds on Ravenhill Road, because of its location, parking is chaotic and there are major problems for local residents. A new out-of-town rugby stadium is needed and fundamentally they do not care where it is located as long as there is a new stadium.
There is a significant lobby by the soccer fraternity to maintain Windsor Park, their traditional headquarters. Asking soccer people to move from Windsor Park is similar to asking the GAA to move from Croke Park or Casement Park in Belfast. They have an attachment to it, in spite of the fact that it is not up to standard. A great deal of money would have to be spent to bring it up to standard. There is also friction between Belfast and the new city of Lisburn where it is proposed the new stadium should be located because the benefit would accrue to that area. Eventually the site would be the location not only of a sports stadium, but almost a sports village. There are plans to develop the entire site of 360 acres. We hope we can reach agreement to have a flagship stadium which would allow other facilities to follow.
Mr. McElduff asked me to mention IMRO and the move to have a royalties collection agency in the North. I agree with Senator Ó Murchú that it would have to be on an all island basis. It makes no difference if performers are playing in Derry or Kerry and they record in Dublin or Belfast. We must start at the beginning and try to disassociate the North from the Performing Rights Society, PRS, in London. The PRS has agreed to a meeting which I hope to attend to discuss a breaking away from the society in London. We have a very strong economic case to make.
I thank the delegates for their informative presentation. I hope their proposal for a multi-sports stadium is implemented. It is a cause of regret to us in this jurisdiction that the vision of the former Taoiseach, Deputy Bertie Ahern, for the Abbotstown site fell through.
I wonder why it fell through.
This is a matter of personal regret for me and a loss for the country and sport in general. It would have brought together for the first time the three major sports codes, GAA, soccer and rugby, at one facility. From discussions with committee members, do the delegates envisage a time in the near future when we might have an all-Ireland soccer team? Such a discussion would be timely as both our teams begin their campaigns to qualify for the next World Cup finals.
In regard to funding for arts and culture, I understand the British national lottery is some 20 times the size of its equivalent in this State. What is Northern Ireland's share of this funding? Have the delegates undertaken any studies to determine whether the North is receiving its fair share? Are the moneys allocated proportionately on a population basis? The national lottery has been successful in the South in providing substantial funding for a range of sports organisations.
The 2012 Olympic Games in London represent a great opportunity for all sports organisations on both sides of the Border to co-operate in order to achieve maximum benefits not only in the sports sphere but also in terms of the potential for tourism. Tourism Ireland will undoubtedly make the case that as an island nation we can offer significant capacity. I am sure the delegates will promote this within the Assembly.
I thank the delegates for their interesting and informative presentation. This meeting affords a great opportunity for us to see how progress is being made in the Assembly. We spoke over lunch about how the situation in the North had changed dramatically in recent years. We can read the reports every day but it is difficult to gauge the level of progress unless we have interaction with those involved.
To take up Deputy Kennedy's point regarding the Olympic Games in 2012, we all have an interest in attracting as much attention as possible to ourselves. Have the delegates examined the possibility of sharing facilities on an all-island basis? The South has several large, high profile facilities such as Croke Park and the new stadium under construction at Lansdowne Road. Does the committee engage with any of the sports organisations on the possibility of sharing facilities in this manner?
I agree with Senator Ó Murchú's point regarding community arts and cultural activities. On a smaller scale, does the committee encourage connections between existing small community arts centres, for example, in both jurisdictions? Is there a way of facilitating such progress at a local level? There is much that can be achieved in this regard. If there was North-South co-operation in the run-up to the 2012 Olympic Games, there would be opportunities from which both sides could benefit. The delegation is very welcome and we look forward to paying a return visit in the near future.
Ar an gcéad dul síos, cuirim fáilte roimh Mr. McElduff agus a chairde. Ba mhaith liom buíochas a ghabháil leo as ucht an méid obair atá déanta acu, go mórmhór ó thaobh ár dteanga dúchais. It is important to pay tribute to members of the committee for pursuing the Irish language at the beginning of the meeting because it is an important part of who we are as a nation.
I will make a couple of points which will dovetail with what has been said. I join Senator Ó Murchú in saying we should pursue the matter relating to IMRO on a joint basis, as it is important we have an all-Ireland music rights organisation. As Mr. Brolly said, many of our musicians perform across the country. If the Minister for Culture, Arts and Leisure in the Northern Ireland Assembly, Mr. Gregory Campbell, MLA, decides to go ahead with the new stadium, who will be the owners? Who will operate it and how will they share its use?
As Deputy Cyprian Brady said, in regard to the 2012 Olympic Games, it is in the interests of both committees that we adopt a collaborative approach to best serving our sportspeople. I would like the joint committee and the visiting committee to encourage the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism, Deputy Cullen, to work with Mr. Campbell in the North-South Ministerial Council to lobby for increased co-operation in the pursuit of excellence leading up to the games. There has been a missed opportunity and, given the performances of many of our athletes in Beijing, a joint approach would take us a step further.
I wish Ms Gregg well and welcome Dr. Bell who is training for a triathlon at the weekend. I hope we will make a return visit to Stormont and that we can help to build bridges by sharing ideas because we have a common interest and a shared story in respect of sport, art and culture, which we should not lose.
It has been great to hear the delegates' views on how their committee is working. I look forward to travelling to the North of Ireland to see how they are building the new democracy. A committee made up of people of the calibre of those present today offers a great opportunity and I look forward to seeing how it develops.
We could do more work together as committees because leisure and tourism development presents great opportunities which we do not make use of to the extent that we could. It works both ways; co-operation would involve our going to the North, as well as the Northern committee coming to the South. I live along a canal and meet people from the North of Ireland while leisure-boating on the Barrow and as far south as New Ross and Waterford. We have fantastic waterways which we do not use. Now that the Northern committee is up and running, we could take advantage by creating more opportunities for commercial tourism along the rivers.
Senator Ó Murchú has covered the cultural aspects of what we and the delegates are trying to do.
I ask the deputation to respond. I appreciate that some of the witnesses must catch a train.
Mr. Barry McElduff, MLA
The Chairman will be well aware that there is no train to the north west.
I have to be totally impartial but we will see what Mr. McElduff has to offer next week.
The delegates are all very welcome for different reasons. I remember that when we spoke in the Dáil after the Good Friday Agreement, I identified the areas of arts, culture and sport as presenting tremendous opportunities for cross-Border co-operation in different areas. This existed for some time but with the normalisation of life on both sides of the Border, great opportunities have arisen. I still believe there is great potential in these areas on which we can capitalise.
I am involved in a twin town project between Listowel and Downpatrick and this has provided a microcosm of how well co-operation can work from cultural and sporting perspectives. This also applies to heritage and both towns have developed their railways. There is a railway up there and we have a unique railway in Kerry.
I know some delegates must catch a train so I will not labour my point. I am not a member of this committee but I have heard the contributions and agree with everything that has been said. There is great potential and the arts, culture and heritage transcend all boundaries, be they political, religious or anything else. A strong heritage is something that is shared on this island. I saw young Protestants in the glens of Antrim dancing at Irish feiseanna 30 years ago. They were as willing participants as anyone else and were proud to win medals. This in itself makes a statement.
My friend, Mr. McElduff, recently wrote an interesting circular to us on how we should watch our language. I replied to him and said he had better watch his language in Croke Park on Sunday week. That was before Tyrone and Kerry won their matches. It is great to see Mr. McElduff and Mr. Brolly, who should tell his son to take the right side next time.
Mr. Barry McElduff, MLA
The letter I received from Deputy Deenihan was very welcome. He told me to mind my language in Croke Park on 20 September, but that is a Saturday. We will be concentrating on the Sunday.
I must go back to my secretary.
Mr. Barry McElduff, MLA
It is great to see Deputy Deenihan and all of the members of this committee.
The first things covered in the last round were references to Abbotstown. I am curious to learn more of the history of the Abbotstown project.
From a committee point of view, I do not have a mandate to speak on the prospects of an all-island soccer team because the topic would cause strong division within the committee. I imagine the division would take traditional lines.
Mr. Francie Brolly, MLA
The cynical view says we should not have two bad soccer teams when one would do.
That is a matter of opinion, of course.
Mr. Barry McElduff, MLA
Reference was made to lottery funding for sport and when I conclude my points, I will ask Mr. Brolly to speak on the lottery and how it affects sporting developments. People are worried that the Olympics have raided lottery funding. It is a bit like when Cork sought to be European capital of culture. I am sure other communities were concerned this might dislocate money that was bound for artistic development and so on. These are typical concerns people have.
Deputy Cyprian Brady mentioned sharing facilities. In a more conventional sense, those in the areas of education and sport should be talking to each other more about sharing facilities.
Schools and colleges and so on.
Mr. Barry McElduff, MLA
Exactly. It makes sense that in a community which has excellent school sports facilities, these should be opened up to the community in the evenings. There is great competition for football pitches for training and so on, yet some schools have three pitches that are under-used. I am trying to answer the Deputy's question from the perspective of education and sport. The two political sides in Ireland should work together more.
With regard to co-operation between communities North and South in the arts, there are some brilliant projects, and European funding opportunities often present themselves. I recently went to a showcase of Omagh-Sligo arts at the Strule Arts Centre in Omagh. Young people from Sligo and Omagh had come together and received European funding to support their projects. We should be looking out for opportunities. Some good work is taking place at county council or district council level. From my knowledge, I would single out Sligo as being excellent in terms of arts provision. I am reminded that in the North, local government has played its part recently in establishing first-class arts centres. It is interesting that one can be up to an hour away from an acute service hospital but one must live within 17 or 18 miles of an arts centre. These are funny rules but it is all very interesting.
Who will own the stadium when it comes to be? The wider site is managed by the Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister, in which there are currently four Ministers: Peter Robinson, Martin McGuinness, Gerry Kelly and Jeffrey Donaldson. It is effectively a Government Department, which is called OFMDFM. I cannot be prescriptive about the exact terms of reference for managing the site in the future, but I know that the GAA, the soccer authorities and the rugby authorities are coming together to business manage the stadium aspect, if it comes to be. There is no guarantee it will be given the green light. If it were not to happen, that would be a major regret personally, not least because it would be very accessible for many communities outside Belfast. Again, if David McNarry were alongside me, he might check me and say it is not regrettable at all. I have to be careful about whether I give a personal opinion or a committee opinion.
With regard to the Olympics, there is a certain reality in the North. Personally I gravitate towards team Ireland, but the Unionist members of the committee will gravitate towards team Great Britain. That is a fact of life. However, this year Wendy Houvenaghel of Upperlands, County Derry, achieved a silver medal in the cycling and Paddy Barnes achieved a bronze medal in the boxing, along with Kenny Egan and our other boxers, including John Joe Joyce and John Joe Nevin, who did very well although the medals did not come. On the committee, we all have different ways of approaching the Olympics in terms of our national affiliations.
I must emphasise this because, again, I am not speaking personally. I share the enthusiasm for working together that was shown by Senator Ó Murchú and Deputy Deenihan in their latter contributions. We should keep an eye on the North-South Ministerial Council and opportunities that will present themselves when the Minister, Deputy Cullen, meets the Northern Ireland Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure, Gregory Campbell. In fact, as individual elected representatives, members here should try to influence the items that appear on the agenda. Perhaps this committee could make a proposal for items to appear on the agenda and our committee could do so as well. Again, I am emphasising North-South connections, while if my Unionist colleagues were here, they might emphasise the British-Irish Council. I am trying to cover this in as impersonal a manner as possible.
Mr. Francie Brolly, MLA
The question was asked whether in normal circumstances we felt we were being properly treated regarding lottery funding, whether we were getting an appropriate share of it. We think we were not, and the fact the English have now taken £20 million to put towards the stadium is a very big blow to our resources.
We have spoken quite a lot about things that divide us, although we deal with them sensibly and with good humour. The relationship between the Nationalist and Unionist sides of the House is at least as good as the relationship between Derry and Tyrone. An example of good work done together, which was one of the first items Mr. McElduff mentioned, was bringing the Libraries Bill through Committee Stage. That was done very well and professionally and everyone was appreciative of each other's input. In areas such as the Irish language, as time goes on, we can all sense that on both sides we are beginning to live with each other's cultures, and long may it continue. Go raibh míle maith agaibh.
I thank the delegation from the North for coming here, giving us an overview and sharing their views and experiences with members. We all agree we have areas where there is common ground and we should work together to develop those areas. We should also convince our respective Ministers to work together in areas of common ground. One of those areas is to ensure we pitch, on both sides of the Border, for venues for countries coming to London in 2012. It is as easy to get from Belfast, Derry, Kerry or Galway to London as from the north of Scotland or England. We should work towards that and I have no doubt both our Ministers will do just that.
I was present when the Minister for Sport at the time attended the National League game between Donegal and Down. That was historic. Mr. Brolly has mentioned the opening of the new GAA grounds by Minister Campbell. We had our encounters many years ago and that is an indication of how far people are prepared to move on and to share the island. We can respect each other's views, backgrounds, culture and heritage, and tremendous progress can be made. I hope today's meeting is another step forward.
I thank the delegation again and hopefully we can continue to work together. I wish Ms Linda Gregg well with whatever she decides to do. I am sure she will not retire; perhaps she will move on from this job. I wish her well and thank her for her co-operation with our officials. I wish Dr. Kathryn Bell well at the weekend, but also as future clerk to the Cultural, Arts and Leisure Committee.
Mar focal scoir, ba mhaith liom mo bhuíochas a chur in iúl leis na toscairí as ucht teacht anseo agus a tuaraimí a nochtadh linn. Mar a dúirt baill eile na coiste seo, táimid breá sásta comhoibriú leis an choiste ó Thuaidh ar son maitheas gach éinne ar an oileán.
Mr. Barry McElduff, MLA
I thank the committee. Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirleach. I express our appreciation for the meeting today, the hospitality — which was first class — and the opportunity to make and re-form friendships with Deputies and Senators. We plan to remain in touch through our respective Chairs and clerks. I thank Mr. Ó hAilín for making this possible. We look forward to a working relationship in the future. Go raibh maith agaibh.
I ask members to remain for any other business.