Joint Committee on Autism debate - Tuesday, 21 Feb 2023

Autism Policy: Discussion (Resumed)

Chairman

The second item on our agenda is our consideration of autism policy. I welcome our witnesses to today's meeting. We are joined by representatives from the Department of Social Protection, Mr. Rónán Hession, assistant secretary with responsibility for working age income supports; Ms Geraldine Hurley, assistant secretary with responsibility for employment services; and Ms Annette Conroy, principal officer with responsibility for employment services policy.

The Department has responsibility for a range of areas which have an impact on the lives of autistic people and their families. We have already heard from parents of autistic children about issues such as the challenge of accessing various care allowances. Importantly, the Department has responsibility for such areas as disability payments and employment supports, areas which have a huge impact on the lives of young autistic adults. We want to hear more about what the Department is doing to ensure that autistic people and their families can access the supports they require, and how the Department can remove unnecessary barriers to accessing these vital supports. We are also looking to hear from our witnesses about employment supports such as EmployAbility and the wage subsidy scheme for persons with disabilities.

The issue of employment and underemployment among the autistic community is of much concern to this committee. Figures from 2019 show that 85% of autistic persons in Ireland are either unemployed or underemployed. We wish to hear from the Department about how the autistic community can be better supported in accessing employment.

I propose that we publish the opening statement and submission from the Department on the committee's website. Is that agreed? Agreed. I now call on Mr. Rónán Hession to make the opening statement on behalf of the Department of Social Protection.

Mr. Rónán Hession

I thank the Chair and the committee for the invitation to attend here today. I am the assistant secretary general of the Department of Social Protection with responsibility for working age income supports. As the Chair said, I am joined by my colleagues, Ms Geraldine Hurley, assistant secretary general with responsibility for employment services, and Ms Annette Conroy, principal officer with responsibility for employment services policy.

At the outset I would like to acknowledge the need for sensitivity with regard to terminology. As the committee’s own report on the summer programme explains, the preferred terminology is that of autism spectrum condition, ASC. Furthermore, I would like to acknowledge that the committee’s report explains that some people with ASC prefer to be referred to as autistic persons, while others prefer to be described as persons with autism. In light of the variety of views on the subject, in our contributions today we will be guided by the approach taken by the committee and will endeavour to be inclusive in the use of both terms.

The main supports provided by our Department are in the form of income supports and employment services. In pre-budget submissions from autism representative groups regarding income supports, the main focus has been on disability and caring payments, and so I will focus on these primarily. However, we are happy to discuss a wider range of payments if that is of interest to the committee, given that autistic people will undoubtedly be customers across all payment types, whether as jobseekers, lone parents, pensioners or under other schemes, and perhaps also as employers.

I should explain that our Department provides a suite of income supports for those who are unable to work due to a disability. These supports are not contingent on the nature of the disability but on the extent to which it impairs or restricts a person’s capacity to work. Disability-related income schemes have been designed to support people with disabilities to enter or return to employment or self-employment. Disability allowance is structured to support recipients to avail of opportunities to pursue their employment ambitions, be that self-employment or insurable employment. When an individual commences employment, they can avail of an income disregard of €165 per week, and 50% of earnings between €165 and €375 per week are disregarded in the means test.

The partial capacity benefit scheme allows a person who has been in receipt of an invalidity pension to enter or return to employment and continue to receive a partial or full payment. The back to work enterprise allowance has been designed to support customers, including those with disabilities, to become self-employed. Customers retain a percentage of their income support payment for up to two years.

In addition to income supports, the Department provides a wide range of services and supports to assist jobseekers, including those with a disability, to find work. We also provide recruitment and retention incentives for employers. The Department provides a case-managed employment service to jobseekers, including those with disabilities, who seek support from their local Intreo centre. The jobseeker works with a case officer with a view to agreeing a suitable personal progression plan in order to access the full range of employment supports available. Intreo also delivers a recruitment and job matching service for employers, via events, in-person engagement and online, through JobsIreland.ie.

The community employment scheme and the work placement experience programme also provide valuable stepping stones into sustainable employment. Our Department contracts the Association for Higher Education Access and Disability, AHEAD, to deliver the Willing Able Mentoring and Get Ahead programmes on its behalf. These programmes provide paid work experience and other supports for graduates with disabilities seeking to enter or re-enter employment.

The Department recognises the additional challenges that some jobseekers with disabilities may experience in securing and maintaining employment, and contracts for the provision of specialist employment services, through EmployAbility, to help address this. A jobseeker with a disability who is working with their Intreo case officer may be referred to these specialist service providers if it is agreed that it would be of benefit to them. Jobseekers work with a job coach who provides both pre-employment and in-employment support and assistance. There are currently more than 2,800 people engaging with the EmployAbility service.

As part of our commitments under the Pathways to Work strategy and the comprehensive employment strategy, the Department has commenced an early engagement approach whereby the Intreo service proactively engages with disabled people at the earliest opportunity, to offer support and assistance – on a voluntary basis – to help them enter or return to employment. The process is initially focusing on those aged 18 to 22 who are in receipt of disability allowance, before being expanded to other age groups and schemes. By December last year, 5,756 people had received a call from an employment personal adviser. Designated employment personal advisers' details are now available on Gov.ie, and more advisers are being assigned and receiving training. There was a two-week national media campaign promoting early engagement in October.

Our Department also contracts for the provision of Intreo partners, that is, the national and local area employment services. Providers deliver a case-managed employment service for all jobseekers, including those with a disability. In addition, the Department provides a range of services and supports for employers to recruit and retain jobseekers with a disability, including financial incentives under the wage subsidy scheme and reasonable accommodation fund grants. The disability awareness support scheme further provides funding for employers to pay for disability awareness training for staff who work with a disabled colleague.

The Department is in the process of installing autism supportive sensory rooms in a number of locations. The first room, in Limerick, arose from an autism initiative in 2019 by local departmental staff in conjunction with local autism organisations. The intention was to make the journey for our customers and their dependents more amenable to their place on the spectrum. It was a bottom-up idea and reflects the culture and values of engaged and innovative staff. It was driven by a committed group on the ground. As part of a rolling programme of maintenance in Intreo centres, rooms will be provided in every Intreo centre where this is feasible.

The Government also acknowledges the important role that family carers play and is fully committed to supporting carers in that role. This commitment is recognised in both the programme for Government and the national carers’ strategy. The main income supports to carers provided by the Department are carer's allowance, carer's benefit, domiciliary care allowance and the carer's support grant. As part of budget 2022, significant improvements were introduced to the means test for carer's allowance. These were the first changes to the means test in 14 years. The current carer's allowance disregards are the highest income disregards in the social welfare system. In addition to carer's allowance, the Department also provides a non-means tested payment to carers in the form of carer's benefit. Furthermore, the carer's support grant, which has been increased to its highest ever rate of €1,850, is also available to carers who are not on a social welfare payment. For those providing ongoing care and attention for a child aged under 16 with a severe disability, domiciliary care allowance is available and is not means tested.

The Indecon cost of disability report was prepared following an extensive consultation with disabled people and disability stakeholders. This included one of the largest disability surveys ever undertaken in the State. It was published in December 2021. The report identified that additional costs of disability run across a number of areas of expenditure, including housing, equipment, aids and appliances, care and assistance services, mobility, transport, communications, medicines and additional living expenses. The report found that there is not a single typical cost of disability. Rather, there is a spectrum from low to high additional costs of disability, depending on individual circumstances. For this reason, a whole-of-government approach is required to address the cost of disability.

Responses to the report were considered regularly by the national disability inclusion strategy steering group as part of its work. This group was chaired by the Minister of State with responsibility for disability, Deputy Anne Rabbitte. The group included relevant Departments, agencies, and a disability stakeholder group. The work of the steering group was due to end in 2021 but was extended to the end of 2022. A new national cross-government strategy to succeed the national disability inclusion strategy is currently being developed by all Government Departments and agencies. This important work is being led by the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. The strategy is intended to satisfy the programme for Government commitment to develop a co-ordinated plan to advance the implementation of the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, UNCRPD. The cost of disability report is an important element of the evidence base that will inform the scope and focus of the strategy.

As part of budget 2023, the Government introduced significant supports for people with disabilities to help address the cost of living and the cost of disability, including a cost-of-living double payment paid to people getting disability allowance, invalidity pension, blind pension, disablement benefit and partial capacity benefit. A €500 cost-of-living lump sum disability support grant is paid to people getting a long-term disability allowance, invalidity pension and blind pension. Supports also include a €200 cost-of-living lump sum payment for people getting a disability payment and who receive the living alone allowance, a €400 cost-of-living lump sum fuel allowance payment, and a Christmas bonus double payment to all persons getting a long-term disability payment. Domiciliary care allowance was increased by €20.50 to €330 per month from January 2023. There is an increase of €12 in the maximum personal rate of weekly disability payments, with proportionate increases for qualified adults and for people getting a reduced rate. Disablement benefit will now be disregarded in the means assessment for fuel allowance. There is a €1 million expansion of the reasonable accommodation fund to support people with disabilities in the workplace. The earnings disregard for disability allowance and blind pension increased from €140 to €165 from January. The means assessment threshold for fuel allowance increased from €120 to €200 from January.

The Roadmap for Social Inclusion 2020–2025 includes a commitment to develop and consult on a straw man proposal for the restructuring of long-term disability payments. The cost of disability report is also feeding into the preparation of the straw man reform proposals. Work on the straw man is at an advanced stage, and the intention is to publish it later in the first quarter of this year. We intend to carry out a wider consultation process with all stakeholders and advocacy groups following publication.

Finally, I know that the issue of workplace adaptation grants and assistive technology has arisen in the course of the committee’s deliberations. We have recently undertaken a comprehensive review of the reasonable accommodation fund after an extensive consultation process with stakeholders. Work on the review is at an advanced stage and we are aiming to finalise it during the first quarter of this year. I hope this overview is of assistance to the committee. We are happy to help with any questions that committee members may have.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Hession and call Deputy Tully.

Deputy Pauline Tully

I thank Mr. Hession for his presentation. I want to raise a number of issues. He referred to the disability allowance. The Disability Federation of Ireland produced figures roughly a year ago, which indicated that more applications were refused than were passed. The figures were 13,989 applications refused and 13,298 applications granted. Of those appealed, approximately half were granted. I find continually in my constituency office that people are refused disability allowance or carer's allowance but are then granted it on appeal. The process is protracted, long, detailed and difficult. I am sure many autistic people who are applying for disability allowance would find the whole experience overwhelming and may not appeal when they are turned down initially, because not everyone appeals. Can something be done to make the application forms and process more accessible? While all disabled people would be kept in mind, we are talking about autistic people here, so what can be done to make it easier for them? It is an invisible disability so they are often not granted the disability allowance initially.

Has the Department done any work on costing abolishing the means test for carer's allowance and instead making it a needs-based assessment? As the Chair indicated with regard to employment supports, 85% of autistic people are either underemployed or unemployed, according to AsIAm. Mr. Hession indicated some supports but they are not working. Can more be done to support autistic people to get employment? It may be that the attitude of employers needs to be worked on. There may be a lack of understanding, acceptance or supports, but a combination of these needs to be considered.

Mr. Hession referred to the Indecon cost of disability report, which was published more than a year ago after much delay. Dr. Áine Roddy from Atlantic Technological University Sligo was before the committee recently. She indicated that it costs a family with an autistic child €28,000 over and above what it would cost a family without an autistic child to support that child. That includes paying for therapies, because they are not available through the children's disability network teams, CDNTs, and for care, both paid and provided for in the home. What more can be done to address this? The supports in the budget were welcome. All supports are welcome, but many have been overtaken by the cost of living. We need to see more sustainable supports. It would be better if people were able to take up employment, support themselves better and not depend on the State for handouts.

I refer to the structure of the disability payment allowing people to work and earn a certain amount without losing their disability payment or having it be reduced afterwards. Many people do not look for or take up employment because of the fear of losing the secondary benefits, such as the medical card, so that could be examined. I often hear from disabled artists and musicians who work on commission that it is not taken into account that their pay is not a set amount per week. It can vary. Could it be looked at on a yearly basis rather than weekly?

Mr. Rónán Hession

I thank the Deputy for the questions. I have noted a number of different topics. I will work through them and ask if my colleague, Ms Geraldine Hurley, has anything to add.

If any gets missed, I will come back to the Deputy. I was trying to think while the Deputy was talking as well, to try to make sure I could cover the ground.

The Deputy's first question was on appeals and processing. Approximately 82% of decisions that are made on disability allowance are made by the Department's own officers. In other words, if they are not made in the initial instance, they may be referred back for review and the ultimate decision is made there.

There are a couple of different factors in it. We have tried to work with the various different groups. We certainly want to try to rationalise the forms wherever we can. Of course, when you have a means test and the added complexity of the medical conditionality, there is a limit to how far you can reduce the application requirements. However, we try to keep the forms readable and short. We have reduced the length of the carer's allowance form considerably.

An issue that has been raised in other committees is that understandably, people will try to apply for the payment as soon as possible because if you are ultimately successful, that is the date to which your payment will be backdated. Obviously, they want to make sure that they are eligible as soon as possible but at times that can mean that people will not necessarily go to the trouble or, to be honest, the expense of preparing the specialist reports that might help their application. It is only when it then goes to appeal that they try to bolster the paperwork that can help their application. We are looking at what we can do on that to try to improve it. The intention is always to try to make it easy for the customer and to make sure that people get their entitlements. We certainly are not trying to frustrate people.

In terms of the means test, the Deputy asked about the costing of the abolition of the means test. Figures have been provided by the carers' organisations effectively saying that if you look at everyone who gets the carer's support grant and then subtract the number who already get carer's allowance, the difference is your level of payment. We have looked at overall high-level costings for reducing the means test but effectively, if you remove the means test you are providing a universal payment. There are non-means tested options such as the carer's benefit - obviously domiciliary care allowance is not means tested. In terms of costing, it is something we are looking at but it is always difficult to cost when there is a large cohort you are not already supplying because in a sense, you do not know what you do not know. You do not know what their means situation would be, you do not know to what extent they are excluded from the means test and you do not know to what extent they will meet medical conditionality if they are not already within your customer base. It is tricky to give an accurate costing there.

I will perhaps come back to Ms Hurley in a moment on employment supports and maybe will whistle through the ones on my side.

On the cost of disability, The Cost of Disability in Ireland report published in December 2021 took some time to do. To assure the Deputy, part of the reason it took so long to do was our wish to make sure we had a highly inclusive consultation process. We took on board feedback from stakeholder groups about the time that would be needed and about the questions that were on it and the length of the form, because the original survey was quite detailed. It is possibly, if not the largest, the second-largest survey that ever has been done on disabled people in this country. While it took a bit longer, having that perspective enriched the analysis.

The report took a top-down and bottom-up approach. In other words, it did a econometric analysis looking at coming up with a costing and then it asked people. The two different methods more or less aligned in terms of the ranges that came out. The report stated that undoubtedly there is a range of costs and it depends on your condition, of course some people have multiple conditions which complicates matters, but that there is a mix of responses needed. Some of it is income supports. Some of it is grants. Some of it is services. Also, employment, which the Deputy touched on in one of her questions, is a big factor. As I noted, the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, was chairing a group which is co-ordinating and looking across Government at the responses.

From our point of view, there are two main things I would point to. In my opening statement, I outlined the budget matters that were done to address the cost of living and cost of disability. There were previous matters in previous budgets. Also, we are looking at the straw-man proposal, which essentially is looking at how we should structure our disability payments in order that the level of payment better affects the condition of the person and how to do it in a way that better connects people to employment, insofar as they are able. We are working on that. We have done a lot of work on it. We are hoping to get it through in quarter 1 but it is important that we get it right. Then we will have a consultation process, as we always do, in which we will want to engage with the various stakeholders.

The Deputy asked about secondary benefits and I take her point on them. It is an issue. When we look at, for example, even the disregards, I have been at stakeholder forums where I have heard people say that you cannot earn more than €140 or you lose your disability allowance, DA. That is not how it works but I understand the perception that is there. The disregard has now moved up to €165 but what we have tended to see is that people, even though you can continue earning up to €375 before you fully lose your payment, tend to get to that disregard level and stop, which is not how disregards are meant to work. Disregards are supposed to help you smooth the journey back to combining employment income with social welfare income. There is an anxiety that, aside from how it might affect your payment, your payment is also your passport to other things, whether it is the medical card, free travel etc. In 2018 or 2019, the means test for the medical card, which is not under the Department of Social Protection's control, was changed and there were some changes to try to get over that. We also have a fast-track system where you get back onto the payment quickly if it does not work out for you. In other words, in terms of applying, you do not have to go all the way back to the start. We try to make it easy.

It is not an easy one to crack. We have had discussions with people in a lot of other jurisdictions. There was a big summit in Belfast last year, the Harkin summit, where we dealt with people around the world. A lot of countries are struggling with this.

The Deputy asked about disabled artists. This issue has come up and we have good engagement with the arts community, both on the basic income proposal, which was under the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media, but also on how we do the means test. The way we work is that if you get, say, an Arts Council grant for a project that is supposed to last X time, what we typically do in respect of disability allowance is to spread that money over that period. In other words, if you get €1,000 to do a ten-week course, we will split €100 over the ten weeks. That is generally the way it works. By the way, we net off expenses. In other words, materials and workplace essentials would be netted off. There have been calls to us for clarity around that and we have tried to put more information out there. We are dealing with the Arts Council on that.

The Deputy asked about employment supports. I might ask if Ms Hurley has anything to add to what I have already said.

Ms Geraldine Hurley

I thank the Deputy. I will deal with her query on employment supports and what is being done at the moment.

I will point out the Government employment services strategy, Pathways to Work. It has a particular strand in relation to leaving no-one behind, which is extending and looking at supports to persons facing particular difficulties in the labour market, and who are facing the barriers and require supports that were referred to at a more general level. Obviously, that includes persons with disabilities there.

The early engagement initiative was one of the key commitments there which we commenced in July of this year. We started working with young people who were in receipt of disability allowance. We wrote to around 6,000 people with a letter that was developed in consultation with a number of community and voluntary organisations, which were working with persons with disability. It was a specially designed letter in that way, stating that we would be in contact with them in a follow-up phone call to see what kind of employment supports Intreo could offer them at this particular point in time. Generally, the feedback was positive. Some, obviously, were not interested at that point in time because they were in education. At least it brought to their attention that the services are available to them when they would need them, maybe when they are finished their college or whatever. Of the 6,000 that we wrote out to, we made phone calls to 5,800. Approximately, 3,300 answered the call. That has led to a number of people being referred to other services, be it EmployAbility or some of the schemes we have mentioned, or engaging with our Intreo services.

Just under 1,000 people are currently engaging with our services. That is an example of where we proactively went out to see what supports are available to persons on disability allowances at a young age to let them know we are available to help them find employment, support them in that and get information on the schemes that are available to them. Those are the specific schemes that are in place to support a person with a disability but also the general schemes. We keep an eye on the takeup of those schemes by persons who may be on jobseeker's allowance but who self-declare as having a particular barrier in entering the workforce arising from a disability. We are going to extend that initiative to look at the next age group from March onwards. We are obviously looking to improve and refine that as we progress with it over the next while. We will look at the outcomes and results in that regard and get feedback from the groups to see what we are doing and what we can do better.

We then, of course, have a number of specific schemes that are in place to support people who either come to us on a voluntary basis and who are in receipt of disability allowance or who are on jobseeker's allowance and self-declare as having some form of disability that creates additional barriers or challenges to them finding employment or accessing training.

The employability contracted services is one such scheme we have. There are more than 3,000 people on that caseload at the moment. That provides tailored employment support advice for persons with disabilities, including periods when they were in employment. A high proportion of people who are on that scheme are getting the in-work supports, which is important.

We mentioned previously the wage subsidy scheme, WSS, which is available to employers who recruit people who have a disability. There are approximately 1,500 participants on that programme, which has an annual budget of €23 million. We then have people who are in our normal job application caseloads who have self-identified either that they have a disability or are in receipt of disability allowance. They obviously have the specific rules around people for accessing the various schemes such as community employment, CE. Anybody in receipt of disability allowance does not have the normal waiting period and they can go on to CE. We have extended the eligibility for JobsPlus, which is another employment recruitment incentive for employers to persons on disability allowance. Equally, Tús, which is also an employment support scheme, has been extended to persons on disability allowance.

The main point I am making is that there are a range of specific supports for persons with a disability, as well as making sure they have access to the general supports that are there in terms of the services we provide, the general employment services or the schemes we have available to us.

Deputy Pauline Tully

The Department does not have a breakdown of how many of those people are autistic, does it?

Ms Geraldine Hurley

No, we do not. The Deputy is right; we do not have a breakdown of types of disability across the scheme for employment services. It is really when people come into us. Either they are on disability allowance or they may be jobseekers. It is at that stage that the services we provide are tailored to them and it is what they self-declare at that time. The Deputy is right to say we do not have a breakdown of types of disabilities that we would have at that point, however.

Chairman

The next speaker is Senator Wall.

Senator Mark Wall

I welcome Mr. Hession, Ms Hurley and Ms Conroy this morning. I thank them for being with us. Deputy Tully touched on much of what I want to cover but one of the big issues for us over the past number of weeks and months since we started was the cost of having a loved one with autism. That is something we want to touch on again today and ask a couple of questions.

I also want to talk about employability. Deputy Tully outlined the concerns and the Chair indicated the 85% who are underemployed or not employed, of which AsIAm has informed us. It is something I come across on a regular basis in my work in County Kildare.

To start with employability services, I am very much aware of the EmployAbility service in Kildare and the great work it does. I have dealt with it with a number of families. The initial contact comes through an Intreo office but when one is contacted by a family, it is very easy to make a telephone call and get in contact with the service. I thank its representatives for their services and help with that.

I am aware that many of the EmployAbility services throughout the State have concerns at the moment that they may be going to public tender in January. We have seen this with other schemes and the concerns they had. I share the concerns the EmployAbility services have at the moment, about which I have spoken to them, about losing that local contact and the great service they provide. Ms Hurley might comment on that. What plan does the Department have? Why are we putting such a good service to public tender? Given its value as a social service and a local service, why do we need to go to public tender with that service?

A number of people have contacted me about early engagement over the last number of weeks, particularly around disability allowance. When somebody whose loved one has autism receives a letter from the Department, there is an immediate concern as to what that means for them. I know that is being spoken about on a voluntary basis but maybe Ms Hurley could expand on the specially designed letter she spoke about. That is something that has come back to me. I get calls from families telling me they have received a brown envelope with a letter from the Department that is talking about activation and employment, which causes concern. Have lessons been learned from the 18 to 22-year-olds about which Ms Hurley spoke in order that when that is expanded to other age cohorts, there is not that fear many people have had on receiving that letter?

We spoke previously about the community welfare service when Mr. Hession last appeared before the committee. One of the issues we have raised at this committee is the rising cost of assessment of need and delays on it. I will ask Mr. Hession again about a community welfare officer helping with that assessment of need. Many families with whom I deal at the moment have to go to credit unions etc. Is there a way that the community welfare service, through the Department's own offices, can help families with assessment of need? It really is getting much more expensive and families are finding it increasingly difficult to pay for it with the rising costs.

Mr. Hession also spoke about a workplace adaptation grant. I raised housing adaptation grants with him previously. I asked him the last time he appeared before the committee about the community welfare service helping families who cannot afford that gap with rising building costs. That is happening. We are still waiting on a report from the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage with regard to the grant it offers. I will ask again whether the community welfare service can help by bridging that gap. I am dealing with families with loved ones who cannot build an extra room or convert an attic because they simply cannot afford it. That is a huge problem for families.

One of the issues we have dealt with in recent weeks is around information and filling out forms, which has been mentioned by other colleagues already today. What is the Department doing to help people with filling out forms, be they online or in physical form, particularly with regard to the domiciliary care allowance? It is one application I deal with almost daily or several times during weekly. Families have difficulties have in converting and filling out that form. Are there plans to make it easier for families? Are there plans to ensure that those who need to fill them out will be helped? Will the form be reduced in size? Mr. Hession mentioned that the carer's allowance form has been reduced in size. That was no harm; it was one of the biggest forms I had to deal with. The current forms are very difficult, however, which has been mentioned time and time again by advocates and families who have approached us. Mr. Hession might comment on what the Department is doing to assist with that.

Mr. Rónán Hession

I will go through the questions to help the Senator and will ask Ms Hurley to chip in on anything on her side. Of course, if I miss anything I will be happy to come back to it. The first issue the Senator raised was the cost of caring for somebody who has autism. There has been engagement with carers' groups on the cost of disability and many of the costs that might arise. When it is a younger person with a disability, the costs actually arise with the carer, so it is a question of how that is recognised. Responses to that go across a range of different areas.

The report did identify that income supports have a role to play but that will not be the only part of it. There is an issue if those costs are around, for example, people who are waiting for long periods to get assessments done in the public system going privately. That is probably what the Senator is alluding to in terms of the community welfare service. Then there are other costs. We have the domiciliary care allowance which has increased and is not means tested. That is payable up to age 16 years. We have also made some moderation with that in terms of young babies born with problems. A mix of responses is required. For carers themselves, we have moved the means test for carer's allowance. The disregards for carers are now at €350. They went from €350 for a single person and from €665 to €750 for a couple. You can be at about €39,000 before the means test affects you. There has been increased availability of support for carers. The carer's support grant is at the highest ever level at €1,850. I have outlined the various budget measures. All those are supposed to try to mitigate some of the costs and the general cost-of-living pressures that people are facing. The Department will need to work with other Departments but the services need to be there. There are transport issues and issues around medicines, appliances and housing, as the Senator said, but it needs to be whole-of-government and that is why it is being dealt with in a whole-of-government way. We are certainly doing our bit or at least we are trying to move things on.

Ms Hurley might want to talk on the early engagement letter. My understanding was that the wording was very carefully screened and tested with groups. It has been a while since I looked at the letter but the word activation is not in it, as far as I know. It is worded in a very sensitive way and we spent a lot of time on it. It was not just something that we drafted and maybe did a round of emails. There were a lot of long discussions and much of the time was spent to try to get that right. I am sure that even with that, no matter how sensitively it is phrased, putting myself in the shoes of the customer, if I receive a letter from the Department of Social Protection about my payment that mentions work, I can imagine my response. In some cases, perhaps that is why services such as EmployAbility are attractive for people or other local area services. I know there were other groups that were before the committee in a similar area. If it does not have a harp on the envelope, in other words, people can say that it is not about their payment but it is really about a service that they are getting. We very much view it as a service that people get and increasingly with the language of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Persons with Disabilities, people are not just saying that it is a service that is available to them but that it is something they are entitled to. They are saying: "This is a right of mine. I am entitled to expect a high standard of service. What can you do to help me in terms of my needs?"

On the community welfare services, CWS, we have additional needs payments that are flexible but there is a limit to how far they go. We have had this back and forth before about the sweeper role and to what extent that payment can cover gaps in the system. I am just cautious about giving the impression that other grants are not in place or are not meeting the needs of people from other Departments, and that we are suddenly pulled in to that. At the same time, we do try to take a person-centred approach to what the person needs and to try to be helpful where ever we can. Housing is by far the biggest category in additional needs payments, whether that is deposits, kit-outs and repairs. Although there is a huge amount of focus on fuel, heating etc. it is only about 3% or 4% of what the additional needs payments do. The vast bulk of it is housing expenses.

There was a question about filling out forms. That is something we are trying to work on. We sit down with the various carers' organisations and other stakeholder groups to see what we can do to simplify the requirements to make it as easy as possible for the customer. We have had an internal staff project looking at what we do for customers with higher needs and what level of wraparound we need to give. It is the nature of our work that people contact our Department when their life is in difficulty, sometimes unexpectedly. A person can need a bit of help and support. Even for those of us inside the system, there is huge complexity so we can imagine how difficult it can be so we do try to help people with that.

The processing times have improved greatly. For carer's allowance it used to be that because of the documentary requirements there was always pressure to meet the targets but the targets across the caring disability schemes are now in a very good place and there has been a lot of work behind the scenes to make that happen. Hopefully that is helpful to people.

I will ask Ms Hurley to reply to the questions on EmployAbility, and she can add to or correct anything I have said.

Ms Geraldine Hurley

We all understand the potential fears. We are all out in society and receiving official letters that can lead to that reaction. I can send a copy of the letter to the clerk for the information of the committee. It was designed with a number of organisations and a lot of work went into it. This included the Irish Society for Autism and a range of other organisations. It was made very clear that it was a voluntary engagement and that the wording is that whatever you decide will not affect your social welfare payment, medical card or travel card. Every effort was made to make this as non-threatening as possible. Will we seek to improve that and refine it with the groups? Of course we will because now we have sent this out to 6,000 people. If there are other groups to consult with, we are happy to look at that too because what we really want is to promote our services to this group of people, and particularly young people. That was the other point; we wanted to make it friendly for younger people, and also for follow-up with phone calls. It was combined with a media campaign at the end of last year. I got some positive comments back on that campaign. Hopefully it removed some of the potential concerns people might have had when they got the letter. The wording is all to the effect that this is voluntary, we are offering you support and help. It is with a view to widening people's perspectives that they are a potential client of Intreo services and that they do not have to be looking for a job at this point in time but that it may be something they are looking at down the road. I appreciate the Senator's comments but it is something we are very conscious of and that we do everything to try to alleviate.

It is very good to hear positive comments about the service provided by EmployAbility in Kildare. I hear similar comments about services around the country too. There are 25 or 26 service providers currently providing the service. They are contracted by the State on an annual basis. It is true to say that plans are on the way to look at going out to the market and procuring the service. That is on the basis of advice we have received from the Chief State Solicitor's office saying that the current contractual arrangements are not in line with EU procurement rules and legislation. Officials have been visiting all contract providers since the start of the year to discuss with them what it might mean for them, how it will be arranged and how it will be organised and to make sure that they are fully aware of the process that will be undergone. Obviously, it will be subject to Government approval. We are at a very early stage of the process at the moment. I would say that a similar process was undertaken last year on the local employment service. We now have the local area employment services, LEAS, operating throughout the country under the new contractual arrangements following a competitive procurement exercise. Our experience was that it did not actually diminish the community-based element of that service and the service providers that are there. Obviously, I cannot say what the outcome of a competitive procurement will be but we are building on past experience.

Deputy Joan Collins

I thank Mr. Hession and Ms Hurley for coming in today.

They have given us much information on where we can possibly go from here. Many questions have been asked, so I will not repeat them.

What are the witnesses’ views on the income disregard? Mr. Hession said it seems to stop at €165 and that is it, in general. That is related to people’s concerns about medical cards. Do the witnesses have much liaison with the medical card section, particularly on the Indecon report and how those concerns can be addressed by perhaps people holding onto the medical card for a bit longer to another point or a maximum scale or something to get more people back into the workplace?

On the partial capacity benefit and the back to work enterprise allowance, do the witnesses have a breakdown of number of recipients? They said they do not have a breakdown of the different disabilities. Do they think that it would help if there was, similar to the Traveller identifier, an identifier for the different disabilities or would that be contrary to the UNCRPD? It possibly would help to identify, over time, people in different categories of disability, where the problems are and how they could be addressed, etc.

The national cross-government strategy to succeed the national disability inclusion strategy is currently being developed. How long will that take? Is there a deadline on that? If so, what is it? Besides the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, what other Departments are involved in the strategy?

The previous speaker just asked about assessments of need. It was said much of it is household. Again, under the Indecon report, is that being matched into the cross-government strategy? How much work has been done on that? Is a particular emphasis on that in the strategy to succeed the disability inclusion strategy?

Among people who have autism, 85% are unemployed. That is a huge percentage. How can that be resolved? It was said a number of people have been called in on that and the Department is going on to the next age group. Under general disability schemes, it would be probably good to know that breakdown from the point of view of people with autism. It is a particular issue among that group of people. I know many of them who are now in their mid- and late-20s and who still have not gotten jobs even though they are quite capable of doing certain work. I will leave it at that.

On filling the domiciliary care forms, people come into my office when they get that form when their child is 16 or coming up to 16 and they are anxious about the process. On the form filling and particularly the GP’s part in stating whether the disability is moderate, medium or extensive, they get worried about the possibility that they might not get the allowance. We have to get feedback from GPs but is there a more effective way of dealing with that aspect of it?

Mr. Rónán Hession

I will try to cover as much ground as I can. Between my colleague and I, if there is anything we miss, we will come back to the Deputy.

On the breakdown - this has come up in some of the other contributions - we need medical information to make decisions on certain payments. That does not necessarily give us an entitlement for that information to migrate to employment services. I will give the Deputy some level of insight into how many autistic people we are potentially paying income supports to. Since about 2017, our applications include detail on what are called International Classification of Disease, Tenth Revision, ICD-10, codes, in other words, a description of what the condition is. We have those codes for approximately a third of our customer base on disability allowance. We have it for 50,000 or 55,000 people. Within those, approximately 5,000 are in the category of developmental conditions, including autism. We know for approximately a third, and of the ones we know, about 10% of them are potentially autism. That does not answer the Deputy’s question about how many in total, but it gives her an indicator of the level of connection.

I have two comments on the income disregards. Yes, we talk to other Departments and try to align. It is difficult. The nature of budgets is that the budget process does not facilitate necessarily open dialogue and consultation around what is going to happen, including with other Departments. Sometime, things do not align the way we would like them to. The Department of Health, in this case, the Department of Education and the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, which deals with the Student Universal Support Ireland, SUSI, grant, for example, are all represented on that steering group. That is chaired by the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte. They are involved, know the direction of travel and are inputting to the responses. The Deputy asked about the assessment of need and whether the people leading on the assessment of need are involved in the national disability inclusion strategy steering group. Yes, they are all there. It is whole-of-government – and not just Government talking to itself. There are also the disability stakeholder groups and their various agencies, such as the NDA and so on.

On an identifier, this goes back to the point around who we have data on. Would it be beneficial? I will explain the partial capacity benefit for anyone in the room or watching who is not familiar with the scheme. For example, someone who is on either invalidity pension or illness benefit for a longer duration can keep a proportion of their payment when they leave and go back to work. The proportion they keep is linked to the restriction arising from their condition. We do not necessarily have an identifier. In the case of partial capacity benefit, they are people who are going back to work in their normal sector, wherever they work, so the identifier there is not something we share with an employer. The back to work enterprise allowance is for people starting their business. A customer may come to us and say they have particular needs. If you have met one person with autism, then you have met one autistic person. It is not necessarily easy to do a standard approach. The main thing is that we are sensitive to it, we can accommodate it and make sure they know what supports are available.

The AsIAm report on autism in the workplace is interesting. We certainly took things from it. I mentioned in my opening statement that we are reviewing the reasonable accommodation fund. AsIAm made a submission as part of the consultation process. We had a good response on the consultation on that one. They made points that we can take on board that are practical and insightful. One of the interesting things in that report was the sort of culture around autism, in a sense, or the perceptions that either the persons themselves or their employer might have. The report, for example, shows that autistic people are reluctant to ask for reasonable accommodation because they think it might be off-putting for the employer. There is a reticence also in that report on behalf of employers because they say simply do not know enough about it and they are afraid of getting it wrong. That report, if I recall correctly, was done in collaboration with IrishJobs.ie, the recruitment website. It is good that employers are in the conversation on that stuff and they are trying to improve. I am estimating that everyone is trying to improve it, as opposed to retreat to their comfort zone.

That leaves a big gap in the middle we all, including the Government, have to step into.

The issue of domiciliary care allowance and anxiety around GPs was mentioned. One of the things about DCA is a child can go on it very young and stay on it until he or she is 16. Children change so much, especially those with a diagnosis, and while their diagnosis of being on the spectrum will still be appropriate, their needs will change as they get older. I completely understand the anxiety that is there. We rely on GP assessments. In our systems, we have medical assessors who are primarily looking at the extent to which what the GPs are telling us helps us understand children's eligibility under the criteria. It is the GPs we rely on. We try to work with the various stakeholder groups and caring organisations to make sure people understand how we intend to use the information. We are trying to be as objective as we can. It is not intended as a trap for anybody.

I hope I have covered most of the ground. Ms Hurley or the Deputy might tell me if there is anything I have missed.

Deputy Joan Collins

Do the officials have information on how many people applied for the back to work enterprise allowance and how many did not get it? Could that information be sent to the committee?

Mr. Rónán Hession

We can provide that. Generally, people on that scheme are coming off another scheme. They are transferring, usually from jobseeker's allowance, although some are in receipt of disability allowance. We will get that breakdown and provide it to committee. In general, it is a handover scheme as opposed to something people are applying for as a new customer.

Ms Geraldine Hurley

The figure the Deputy quoted from the AsIAm report for unemployed or underemployed in the autistic community is a concern and is something we need to look at. From an employment services perspective, we do not retain statistics on the type of disability, including whether someone is in receipt of DA or is a jobseeker with a disability. The service we provide is based on the need a person has for supports to gain access to the labour market and jobs. Putting a disability label or identifier on someone is not required. There is no business need for that because people's needs can vary significantly. There are also GDPR issues regarding that. We do not have a breakdown on the employment services and employment support side of the house on people with autism who are using our services.

If people with additional needs come to us, we have a number of disability liaison officers and our staff are trained in disability supports. We are upping our capability and skills in that area. It is not just general supports that are provided. We have people who are trained to provide specific supports across the range of persons who, at the end of the day, are our clients and who we want to help in the best way possible.

Senator Eileen Flynn

I am raring to go. I hoped I would be next. We talked about ethnic identifiers. I do not mean to sound disrespectful but, sometimes, people want to identity their disability and have it on record how they are being treated within the service. Many a time, people from ethnic minority groups, including members of the Traveller community and black people, believe it is important to have an ethnic identifier in every Department. Following on from what Deputy Collins said, I understand the officials said they do not believe there is a need for it but as somebody from the Traveller community who works closely with AsIAm, we believe it is very important in the services. Maybe it is something they will look at in future.

The 85% unemployment rate for people who are autistic is a startling number. It should not be forgotten these are people who cannot seek employment because of their disability. Again, I speak as somebody from a community with very high unemployment. What measures has the Department taken to ensure existing schemes are robust in respect of equality, especially as regards autism, since that is the focus of this committee? What is the Department doing to ensure those people are included in schemes and making autistic people a priority? Access to schemes is very important because we often forget about intersectionality. A person can be autistic, black or brown, or a member of the Traveller community, etc. Does the Department do work with disabled people's organisations, DPOs? Does it have a good working relationship with those organisations?

It has been mentioned, and I have mentioned this many times on the floor of the Seanad, at this committee and to the Minister, the application forms for disability allowance, going back 15 or 20 years ago, and today, remain difficult for people with a disability to fill in. According to a 2020 figure, 63.6% of people with a disability who are refused DA then have that decision overturned. I have that figure in front of me. Have we any more recent figures, as that figure is from two years ago, on what it is like in 2023? How many people have been refused, only for that decision to be overturned? That is not robust or good practice. I need the officials to know that my argument is not directed at them personally; it is around the practice of the Department.

The Department is looking at introducing a pay-related benefit for jobseeker's allowance, where the payment will be based on people's jobs before they looked for that allowance. I am looking at autistic girls and LGBTQI+ people who are autistic. How will we make sure that people are not discriminated against under this new scheme the Department is bringing in?

Mr. Rónán Hession

I thank the Senator. I will go through her questions as best I can. I will ask Ms Hurley to provide additional-----

I take the Senator’s point on application forms. Other committee members have made that point. We are open to feedback. We do not look to make life more difficult than it has to be in terms of information required. We have tried to cut down our forms and to provide assistance to customers who need to be talked through it and need help and direction. Many of our schemes are statutory schemes. We are dealing with Oireachtas legislation in terms of what we have to satisfy ourselves on in terms of means and qualifying criteria. We have to go through that but will try to do it in as customer-friendly a way as possible. Some of the changes have been effective. We are processing applications much more quickly than previously. The numbers are meeting our targets, which themselves are quite challenging.

On appeal statistics, I have some figures which I will read through quickly but will send the text on to the committee as well, as members will want to digest it. In 2022, 29,480 claims for disability allowance were determined, of which 13,817 were decisions to award. A total of 5,435 appeals were processed. That is about 18% of all claims decided and about one third of unsuccessful claims. Of appeals received, 722 were allowed by the Department’s deciding officers following receipt of further evidence. In other words, 722 were sent back to the Department with more information for it to have another look and were then granted. Roughly half or 2,348 were allowed by appeals officers and 69 were withdrawn. All of that together means that claims awarded by appeals officers made up about 8% of new claim decisions in 2022 and about 17% of claims were awarded on the basis of a successful appeal. As of the end of 2021, the number of claims awaiting a decision was 2,500; there were 5,598 claims awaiting decision at the end of 2022, so there has been an increase in outstanding claims. I will give that speaking note to the clerk so the committee has the data. On any follow-up queries members have, we are happy to help. You have to do the walk-through of the figures. Any time I read that note, I have to read it more than once.

The Senator raised LGBTQI+ communities, especially when there is intersectionality with an autism diagnosis, and how they would fare under the pay-related benefit. The "simple" idea behind the pay-related benefit is that the level of payment you get is a portion of your prior income. The current jobseeker’s benefit system is run that way but over time, because it is a banded system and the bands have not moved, it has become in effect a flat-rate system. If you have been working for five years or more, roughly speaking, you will get 60% of prior gross income, and the cap will be €450. About 60% of average industrial wages should come in at about €450. A person on the average industrial wage will get 60% before the cap kicks on. For those who do not get that, which is those who have the two years or, in other words, people who would qualify for jobseeker’s benefit at the moment, the payment would be 50% with a cap of €300. At the moment the maximum jobseeker’s benefit is €220. We will continue some form of jobseeker’s benefit for casual and part-time workers, etc.

There is, separately, a look into how we might reform the means-tested jobseeker schemes. There is a skeleton idea in the straw man to invite some initial feedback. We had a stakeholder forum on the pay-related benefit last Friday in the city centre. For anyone unable to attend that, it was recorded and will be put in the video so people will get to see the presentation. We had international experts. I gave a presentation but there were also non-departmental presentations. It was about stimulating a discussion.

It is a straw man, which is where the Government says it is thinking of doing something but might not do anything. It is difficult when there is a complex new system. We will do this on disability as well. When there are many features to it, it is difficult to picture how it might look. It is like when you go to Ikea and they do a mock-up of an apartment. It is only when you see it mocked up you say you want to change certain things, you like certain features and so on. A straw man does that. It shows how a different system might look. Everything is customisable and can be changed. Nothing jumps out at me as to why that would be a concern to particular groups but the consultation process is open until the end of this month and we will be happy to meet people. If there are concerns, we encourage people to participate in the consultation process.

Senator Eileen Flynn

Will Mr. Hession send me a link?

Mr. Rónán Hession

We can do that, yes. On the Senator’s final question, I have “carer” scribbled here but cannot remember.

Senator Eileen Flynn

It was around children in care. How come some are able to receive carer's allowance?

Mr. Rónán Hession

Carer's allowance is payable where a person is being cared for at home and being given full-time care and attention, which I think is 30 or 35 hours. It is only payable under the law for the person at home. A change has been made in the recent budget on domiciliary care allowance so that if a child does not leave hospital in the first six months in can continue for up to 26 weeks. There are period breaks in the payments. It was 12 weeks but I think we may have changed it. If a child or person being cared for needs to go into hospital or residential care for a period, the payment continues but is time-limited.

Senator Eileen Flynn

If they were to go to their aunty or uncle for a few weeks, the aunty or uncle is not entitled to carer's allowance for the child. It is pure discrimination. It is not used personally but we should look at a better way. Does Mr. Hession have any suggestions for the committee on what we could do to make it better? Sorry, Chair.

Chairman

We are straying a little bit, are we?

Mr. Rónán Hession

There is always a border around the conditions under which a payment is made available. Generally, these are payments where a person has an ongoing, long-term - usually a year or more - need for income support. The logic is that an ongoing condition will impair a person’s ability as a carer, disabled person or jobseeker to support themselves, so the State steps in and provides income support.

If it is for a short period, the State tends not to step in. There are exceptions to that in some schemes but I am speaking broadly. These are big schemes. The carer's allowance costs more than €1 billion. In the context of a budget where a Minister might have €400 million to play with, there are trade-offs. As a civil servant, I cannot comment on the merits of a policy. These are debating points for policymakers essentially.

Ms Geraldine Hurley

No, it has been Travellers in general.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Coming so late in to the debate, I note that many of the issues have been addressed. I will speak to Green Party members about that straw man proposal on the pay-related benefit this evening and I will steal Mr. Hession's IKEA metaphor as it is a good way of explaining what there is. I will begin with a comment on the figures Mr. Hession gave us regarding the 29,000-odd applications. I think he said that 2,348 of those were subsequently awarded by appeals officers. In one sense that goes to the crux of an issue for an autistic person. That process will be difficult. The process to make the initial application will be difficult. Then the process of engaging in an appeal will be difficult as well. There are steps involved in that. All of our offices have dealt with appeals in one way, shape or form. It is just additional barriers and I worry about that. There is maybe not a question in that but I did want to mention it.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Mr. Hession has kind of pre-empted where the substance of my question is going. We have concentrated on and talked a lot about people who are on disability allowance but Mr. Hession is saying probably the majority of people who have autism are not on disability allowance. We need to reach out to employers and make sure the accommodations are in place. There is probably a role for employer workplace training, not just in the Intreo offices but in all the places where autistic people work, which could be any place.

Mr. Rónán Hession

On that, we do fund a €20,000 grant for employers for their other staff. We survey employers and we have an employer engagement team. There is an issue with awareness. Also, I think that sometimes in recruitment areas there can be a lot of churn in staff, so you work with somebody who knows what the Department does, that changes and you are back to square one. As for the AsIAm report on the workplace, it is interesting that some of this stuff is difficult but there also seems to be areas where I think there is potential - and they are cultural - as to how autistic people understand how they are perceived. In other words, people will not ask for reasonable accommodations because if they say in the job interview that they are concerned, the employer might think, "This is a tight-run thing and they are both very good but the non-autistic person might be less hassle." That is what people with autism report back. Likewise, there is a tentativeness that comes from employers, who say, "We want to do the right thing but we are just not always 100% sure what the right thing is." That has a chilling effect. The AsIAm report is very good at putting that out there. Sometimes the financial supports are there and they are quite significant, and the subsidies are there and they are quite significant. I do not want to talk only about minimum-wage jobs because I have been at so many disability seminars where people have said the main constraint is other people's low expectations. We should therefore not talk only about low-level or entry-level jobs. You can get subsidies of over €9 under the wage subsidy scheme, and we have a minimum wage of €11. The minimum subsidy is €6.30, which is significant. The reasonable accommodation is somewhat supported and will be better supported if we can get the review. The cultural piece and the workplace piece are a bit trickier. Having more open conversations and demystifying this is part of it, and the autism community has made huge positive steps there. There has also been engagement with employers. That report by AsIAm was a collaboration with employers.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Mr. Hession reckons that the uptake level of those grant streams and funding streams is poor.

Mr. Rónán Hession

Yes, very poor.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

There must be an information piece.

If I may, I will ask just a final question, a broad one. I apologise if it is overly broad. There has been talk about the working-age payment. Now the technology as to how Revenue talks to the Department of Social Protection is probably at a point where we can begin to consider that. I think many autistic people would very much benefit from that kind of flexibility because we have talked about those cliff edges, whether real or in the group imagination. Those are one of the huge barriers to participation. It was mentioned in the Commission on Taxation and Welfare report. Where is the Department in its thinking on that? That would be a very large-scale project, I imagine. If the Department were to go after it, what kind of timeframe would there be? That is a multi-annual project, I assume. It is a very broad question, but Mr. Hession might be able to address it nonetheless.

Mr. Rónán Hession

The final question in the straw man on pay-related benefit, towards the back of it, gives the skeleton as to what a working-age payment might look like. Essentially, it is based on the model for the working family payment. The working family payment works in such a way that it does not involve all the cliff edges such as the number of days worked, disregard thresholds or secondary benefits. To make the sums easy, let us say the threshold for a couple with one child is €500 and they earn €400 from work. They get 60% of the difference. That is not what the actual thresholds are; my spontaneous sums are a bit rusty and I am just trying to make this easy to understand. The working family payment is missing two categories: childless couples and single people. The working-age payment would include them in a working family payment-type model and use that to replace jobseeker's allowance, instead of having it means-tested, whereby there is the four-in-seven-days rule, disregards and all sorts of other restrictions. For example, let us say you are an autistic person and your working pattern is two and a half hours a day.

At the moment you get nothing because you are employed every day. Under a working-age payment model there would be a threshold that applies to you and you would get some of the difference between what you actually earn and that threshold. That means you can work every day or just one day. It is just down to the money; it is not down to the hours or the days. The idea is to have more flexibility and to let people blend the income support they need with their working patterns. That is the idea. It is difficult to do in practice. However, because we are having the conversation on pay-related benefit, and this is an alternative answer for people who do not fit into that, we want at least to sketch out what we are thinking. In regard to the timescale, it will be complex to do. At this stage we have no idea of the costing because it will depend on what the thresholds are. However, in terms of the production line, it comes after the pay-related benefit. I would say it is the next phase.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I thank Mr. Hession.

Chairman

There are no other speakers. I notice in the opening statement that the Department has put sensory rooms in some of its buildings throughout the country. The project we have been working on with the Houses of the Oireachtas involves the development of an autism-friendly complex. It is important that all Government buildings throughout the country are such and that there are staff in every building who are trained in that area.

The Department must be complimented on the fact that work has been done. I assume that is not the case in all Department buildings throughout the country. It is important to pass that on. I live in Ballinalee and the Department of Social Protection is just down the road from me. Therefore I know many of the staff who work in the various sections that deal with many of the claims. It is important to compliment the good work they do. The process was kept going all through Covid-19 which was difficult. Claims were being assessed all through that. It is important to put that on record in the context of the work that was done by all the staff in the offices on the Ballinalee Road.

Deputy Ó Cathasaigh has really drilled into the issue with regard to the numbers and the whole issue of people being unemployed or underemployed. Reference has been made to the 85% unemployment rate. We need to reflect on the success of the EmployAbility service, given that the numbers employed are low. As has been said, the number of companies on the WSS is low. There is an problem there. The issue may be a lack of information to employers but it needs to be tackled if we are to address that 85% figure.

We discussed an issue with regard to some of the colleges. Ms Conroy might talk about policy. She was getting off free there for a while. The committee has heard from Trinity College Dublin, which has developed a programme to link in with companies to provide employment. Some of the other colleges such as the Technological University of the Shannon, TUS, in my own area, offer some sort of a support programme to help students to transition into employment. Trinity College Dublin has created an ambassador role. It works with 40 companies that are prepared to work with the college. When students graduate into employment, they are then supported in that employment. This should be done throughout the whole country in all colleges. Supporting a programme like that would help to improve the figures. It involves working with companies that are aware of the schemes that are in place. Going straight from college into a job and being supported in that job is positive. It takes staffing to support such a project throughout the country. Is this something the Department is aware of? Is it a project the Department could look at and work on in order to decrease that figure of 85%?

Ms Geraldine Hurley

I will start on that and let Mr. Hession come in then. We have done some work with colleges in the past, in particular Maynooth University, on the transition from an academic degree into the world of work, which is what the Chairman is speaking about. We can definitely look at working with other colleges as well.

In regard to promotion in general, we have had a number of events recently to promote the supports that are available for employing persons with disabilities. There was one in Cork, there is one being planned in Tralee and there have been events in Tullamore. We are running specific events to promote the employment of persons with a disability and the supports and incentives that are there for employers. We usually organise events around the international day for persons with a disability to promote awareness of our schemes, be it the WSS or the general supports available under other schemes. We are looking that at on an ongoing basis. The example of Trinity College Dublin is an interesting one. I would like to look at that if there is further information.

Mr. Rónán Hession

To add to that, we work with AHEAD in the higher education sector. It does placements for graduates in particular in the colleges and gets them work placements. More than 600 graduates have been placed. About 10% or 11% of them are people with an autism diagnosis. It tries to have a direct engagement with employers. We also have various schemes such as the workplace experience programme. About 40% of people who get placements under that programme have an apparent disability. We have a direct engagement where we can get employers involved. As the Chairman said, they require staffing. It is difficult to get these things up and running directly from the Department.

We run a programme under the Dormant Accounts Fund where we issue calls for proposals for employment initiatives for disabled people. A number of autism groups are funded under that programme, including Specialisterne, which the Chairman has mentioned. We have used funding from the Dormant Accounts Fund for the last couple of years. That has been extended into this year because there is new European funding coming on stream. Later this year we will have to do a call for proposals. In other words, we will invite projects to come forward with their ideas. That will go into the process which is managed by Pobal and sponsored by the Department. There is a way for such projects and programmes to get funding. That is under the Dormant Accounts Fund heading for now, but European funding is due to come on stream later this year. In terms of bureaucracy, we have to go through the stations of the cross at European level to get formal approval, but it will come through. Anyone who was already getting that funding last year has been notified and the fund has been carried over to this year. The process allowed us to get them on board. In other words, there are pockets of activity. There are groups at local level taking initiatives to deal with this very type of issue. There is a funding stream that we have used in recent years which will continue under a European banner in the years to come. That is the main vehicle by which we support such projects.

Chairman

Mr. Hession says there are "pockets of activity". We need it to be consistent across all colleges. If a scheme could be developed in conjunction with the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, whereby every college could apply to this fund and that funding would be made available to every college to employ a person that would support such a project, that would be positive.

Deputy Ó Cathasaigh referred to the figures. I do not know the key performance indicators, KPIs, with regard to the employability project. If the numbers being employed are not high, then we need to adjust the programme to make sure that increased numbers from the programme are being employed.

Deputy Tully brought up the assessment of needs and the additional needs payment. I know significant extra funding was put into it by the Minister in 2022 and was paid out. If people need assessments of need, they should be able to access that payment for financial help. Talking to people, many parents who cannot get an assessment are not in a good financial situation. We have even heard that some schools are subventing a certain percentage of funding because they are only allowed to put forward one or two students every year. As I say, that fund can be used for heating and adaptation of the houses, but it cannot be used in a situation where a family needs to get that assessment for their child. To me, it is a higher priority than some other things. It should be looked at. I know the Department cannot just open it out but maybe if there was a recommendation from the school that went in with the application, it could be looked at and there could be some help for parents to be able to get an assessment of needs.

I know the carer's allowance is means-tested. There is a financial cut-off point there. We have spoken to families. I know of one family I have met myself in which two children have had assessments and have been diagnosed as being on the spectrum. One parent has to leave work and another parent has to travel up and down to Dublin every day to work to be able to fund the roughly €28,000 per year of extra costs for that family. That is the figure that came from Atlantic Technological University. I do not know what the figures from the Indecon report but €28,000 is the figure from Dr. Roddy's project, for when everything is taken into account, which she gave to the committee. Is there a process to have an exceptional review for a family where circumstances like that are taken into account and there is not just a straight disregard where incomes go above a certain line? Is there a process where a family can make a personal appeal based on the circumstances of the carers?

Mr. Rónán Hession

We do not have a facility to make exceptions in that way. No matter where we set a disregard level, there will unfortunately be people outside it. There are non-means-tested options. Certainly, if people are leaving work, they may have the contributions to get carer's benefit, which can last for two years. It may not be long enough for people dealing with a child who may require ongoing care. In the initial period where people lose work, if the child is under 16, the domiciliary care allowance is not means-tested, so that is another option. If people are not in receipt of any of our payments, they may still, if they are providing full-time care, regardless of their means of whether they qualify for our schemes, qualify for the carer's support grant, which is €1,850. There are about 90,000 carers. The carer's support grant is provided to about 116,000 people. Between carer's benefit and carer's support grant, there are about 20,000 people in that category. Supports are available but, unfortunately, due to the way means-testing works, there are thresholds and not all income is assessed above the threshold. The threshold for carer's allowance is the highest in our social welfare system. It is considerably higher than for disability allowance, which is €165, with a threshold of €350 for carer's allowance.

The Minister of State has been mindful of this. She meets carers' groups often and goes to our annual carers' forum. The carer's support grant is at its highest-ever level. Those means test thresholds had not changed in 14 years. I know what the carers' groups are calling for. They are essentially looking for non-means-tested payments at the same level as the artists' basic income. A bit like with the additional needs payment, our solutions are social welfare-shaped and sized. We have scarce resources which are targeted and we have to use means-testing as a way to target resources at those who have the greatest income need. That is not to in any way not accept the caring need and the household need, which we of course recognise. We have tried to use those different ways, such as the carer's support grant means test, to try to bring more people into the net to give better support. Unfortunately, there will always be people who are missed by the threshold. In cases where people are leaving work, the carer's benefit can be paid for two years and there are no age restrictions on it. That may help.

Chairman

As Mr. Hession knows, autism is a lifelong condition and not a two-year illness. There are studies of the increased costs for families. There is no disregard for any amount of that money when it comes to the income threshold if I am correct. I think there needs to be. If people have that expense attached to caring for their child, it is not taken into account in the income limits. I think it should be. There needs to be an income disregard within the application, particularly for people with autism who have all those extra costs associated with their child. It leaves people in difficult financial circumstances, especially where they are not able to get many services from the State because we do not have the staff to provide them. People then have to go privately at an extremely high cost to themselves. I will bring it up with the Minister. We have disregards in various schemes but we do not have it for families who have huge costs associated with caring. It is a straight figure, which I do not think is correct.

Mr. Rónán Hession

When we assess means-tested social welfare schemes, we can look at means and, as was mentioned earlier, we have better, more current information that we can use to get a more accurate result for people. We do not have real-time information on what people spend. The means tests, disregards and thresholds are set in the full knowledge that we are just looking at income and that people will have expenses. If one was to try to implement and allow for what outgoings people have, we would need real-time information. It would be different for every person in every household. The payment would be different for everybody in every household. It is probably unlikely that the Government could afford a €350 disregard on a net basis. That would be a significant change from where we are now. There are practical elements and cost implications of going down that route. It is a legitimate thing for the committee to consider and recommend. I am not trying to pour cold water on it but to explain why the system is not designed that way and the practical import of that route.

Chairman

I know there are some schemes where if there is a child in the family in third level education, there is a disregard of a certain amount of income. I forget what the figure is for some of the schemes. It is because of some of the costs associated with going to college. There is no disregard for the costs associated with caring for a child with significant medical needs and needs for supports. The figures are available from studies such as the Indecon report, which show that the costs exist. I know it is different for every single family, just as the costs associated with college are different for every single family. There is a minimum figure. I feel that the costs associated should be taken into account. I know it cannot be changed here, today, but I wanted to get that point across.

Do Deputies Collins or Ó Cathasaigh wish to come back in before we finish up? No. That is fine.

Mr. Rónán Hession

I thank the committee. We are trying to be helpful and constructive with anything we can help with. I thank the Chairman for the kind remarks to the staff in the Department. It is certainly much appreciated. During the pandemic we were very appreciative of the kind words people had for how we dealt with the pandemic unemployment payments and so on, but a huge part for the Department was about keeping the show on the road for everyone else. Certainly those working in Longford on the disability schemes and in Sligo on the pension schemes, and those around the State in our Intreo offices are all part of that, and very much appreciate that. We are here to help. On foot of that, if there are further clarifications or other information required arising from our discussions, or if we can help with that through the clerk to the committee, we will be happy to provide that and be of assistance.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Hession. We will adjourn until Thursday, 23 February at 12 noon, when we will meet in private session.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.12 p.m. until 12 noon on Thursday, 23 February 2023.