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Joint Committee on Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth debate -
Wednesday, 20 Sep 2023

Child Protection: Discussion

Apologies have been received from Deputies Sherlock and Brady. Our agenda item for consideration is a discussion on child protection. We have two sessions. In the first, we have the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, Deputy O’Gorman, and officials from his Department: Mr. Des Delaney, Government chief social worker; Ms Marie Kennedy, principal officer; and Mr. David Byrne, principal officer.

We have Tusla, the Child and Family Agency, with us as well. We have Ms Kate Duggan, interim chief executive officer; Mr. Ger Brophy, chief social worker; Ms Lorna Kavanagh, area manager for national services and integration; and Ms Clare Murphy, national director of services and integration.

As I said, we have two sessions. At the second session, we will be joined by Ms Caoilfhionn Gallagher KC, special rapporteur on child protection.

They are all very welcome and I thank them for being here. I welcome back members to our first meeting of this term.

Before I begin, I will go through the usual housekeeping matters. For anyone who is joining us remotely, the chat function on MS Teams is only to be used if there are any technical issues or they want to let us know of any urgent matters. It is not be used for any general comments or statements throughout the meeting.

I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any member partaking via MS Teams to confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus prior to making their contribution.

We have opening statements, which will be followed by questions and answers. The first session of this meeting has to be concluded not later than 7.45 p.m. I ask everyone to bear that in mind.

In advance of inviting witnesses to deliver their opening statements, I advise them of the following in respect of parliamentary privilege. Witnesses and members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

That completes all of the housekeeping matters. I call the Minister to make his opening statement.

I thank members of the committee for inviting me here to discuss matters relating to child protection.

I would like to begin by acknowledging the great work done by Tusla and the commitment of its staff in the context of a huge increase in demand for its services in recent times. Referral rates to Tusla continue to increase year on year. This can be considered to be a result of increased awareness of child protection within society and some changes to the reporting process.

It is also important to acknowledge the challenges the agency is facing. Ireland is now accommodating more than 90,000 persons fleeing the conflict in Ukraine and international protection applicants, resulting in significant pressure on State services, including Tusla. This is resulting in challenges in providing sufficient suitable placements for children in care. I am aware of the concern of members and other stakeholders in this regard, specifically related to the use of special emergency arrangements. It is also important to note that the complexity of the presentations of children coming before Tusla continues to grow. In addition to these pressures, Tusla is also experiencing pressures with regard to the recruitment and retention of staff. This is something my Department is working to address in collaboration with the agency.

Specifically in relation to foster carers, I know of the valuable role they play, and recently received the pre-budget submission from Irish Foster Care Association. I again state that it is a priority of mine to seek an increase in the foster care allowance in budget 2024. I assure the committee that the safety and welfare of children in care is a priority for me and my Department and for Tusla, and we will have an opportunity to discuss this further in the course of our meeting.

Over recent months, a number of child protection matters have been the subject of media reports, including the UCD scoping report on child sexual exploitation, HIQA inspection reports of child protection services, which were found to be non-compliant, and a letter to my Department from Judge Simms. I would like to take the opportunity to address each of these in turn. The committee will have already received my observations on the very concerning matters raised in the UCD scoping report, Protecting Against Predators, which raises unsettling concerns that young girls in residential centres might be being targeted by predatory and organised groups of men. As stated in that correspondence, my Department and Tusla continue to take the issue of potential child sexual abuse very seriously. I have met a delegation from the UCD sexual exploitation research programme, including one of the authors of the report, to discuss the report and its findings in more detail. My Department has and will continue to liaise closely with Tusla regarding its response to the report.

Regarding the HIQA reports, my officials have been in regular contact with Tusla about the non-compliance with child protection standards arising from the HIQA inspection reports. There are action plans in place to address the deficits, and I am happy to discuss these more, as no doubt will our colleagues from Tusla. There are also further engagements planned between my Department, Tusla and HIQA regarding the proposed new HIQA national standards relating to child protection and children in care.

I reiterate that my Department and I continue to place a clear focus on the care needs of separated children in care, be they from Ukraine or any other state. Tusla has seen a significant increase in the number of children under this heading requiring care over the past 18 months.

These pressures, along with the broader increase in referrals, are resulting in challenges in providing sufficient suitable placements for children in care. I am aware of the concern of members and other stakeholders in this regard, specifically relating to the use of special emergency arrangements.

Again, I assure the committee that the safety and welfare of children in care is a priority for me, my Department and Tusla, and we will have an opportunity to discuss this further in the course of our meeting. I thank the committee for calling a meeting on this specific issue. This is probably one of the first times we have had the opportunity to go into some of these issues in depth. I look forward to responding to questions as we go ahead.

Ms Kate Duggan

I thank the committee for the invitation to appear before it. I am joined by Ms Clare Murphy, national director of services and integration – interim, Mr. Ger Brophy, chief social worker, and Ms Lorna Kavanagh, area manager, national services and integration.

Since we last appeared in front of this committee, we have published our annual report for 2022, which highlighted the depth and breadth of services provided by the agency in 2022 and the significant increase in demand for our services, with 82,855 referrals to child protection and welfare services alone.

There has also been much public discussion in recent months on the subject of child protection, including the Child Law Project reports; a letter from Judge Dermot Simms to a number of Departments and bodies, including Tusla; a scoping study on the subject of child sexual exploitation; and discussion around the increase in separated children seeking international protection. While this public discussion and scrutiny is welcome, it does highlight the unprecedented challenges we as an agency currently face.

In particular, we face an increasing referral rate, an inadequate supply of alternative care placements - emergency, foster and residential, an increase in the number of separated children seeking international protection, and workforce supply issues, particularly in social work and social care. We have also noted an increase in the number of children and young people with more complex needs who also require access to other specialist services, such as disability, mental health and addiction services, to better meet their needs. This increase in demand for services must be considered in the context of wider societal issues such as the housing crisis, global movement, poverty, domestic and gender-based violence, drugs, criminality and exploitation.

We appeared in front of this committee recently to discuss separated children seeking international protection. Over the past 12 months, there has been a significant and unprecedented increase in the number presenting or being referred to this service, which has significantly impacted our ability to respond appropriately. As an agency, our internal audit system has identified challenges in standards of governance, documentation, placement, communication and legal matters for this service. This was also highlighted by a recent HIQA inspection report into the service. In response to these, we have scaled up services, increasing the staffing levels and increasing the number of placements available. We have a service-wide improvement plan in place to address this. However, this remains challenging in the context I have outlined. We have also engaged with the Children’s Rights Alliance to plan an engagement with stakeholders in the wider sector to consult on how we could better structure and deliver services to separated children seeking international protection and to unaccompanied minors, and planning for this is under way.

The committee may also be aware of the recent publication of the scoping study on the sexual exploitation of children and young people in Ireland, conducted by the sexual exploitation research programme, SERP. The increased risk of child sexual exploitation of vulnerable children and young people is something we are acutely aware of and remain concerned about regardless of whether it relates to children and young people in our care or those in the wider community. Some of the key measures that inform this work within Tusla are the child sexual exploitation procedure developed in 2021 in partnership with An Garda Síochána; the joint working protocol between Tusla and An Garda Síochána, which forms an integral part of the responses to child abuse and neglect, particularly with regard to child sexual exploitation and includes regular meetings with An Garda Síochána; and the establishment of an anti-trafficking working group in readiness for the Department of Justice's third national action plan to prevent and combat trafficking of human beings, which includes the area of child sexual exploitation.

Following the publication of this study, we met with the researchers to discuss the serious child protection and welfare concerns identified in the report. We requested that confirmation be sought from the relevant participants to make sure that either Tusla or An Garda Síochána was notified of the identified child protection and welfare concerns highlighted in the report. In any cases where it is not possible to confirm if a notification was made, the researchers will request that the concern is reported and prove confirmation of this. We are also conducting an internal review of the reporting and process management of concerns regarding child sexual exploitation.

Another area of key focus in the agency is that of special emergency arrangements, SEAs. It is a reality that for a small number of young people, we are challenged to find a suitable or regulated placement due not to a financial challenge but to an inability to provide a more appropriate or long-term placement, often due to the complex needs of the young person. We know Ireland is not alone in addressing challenges to the increased demand for placements, particularly for more vulnerable teenagers in care post the Covid-19 pandemic, and the ever-increasing risks associated with such placements have become evident across the globe. We have set up a crisis management team to take immediate action on the ongoing issue of the increase in SEAs and this is a priority at the highest level within the agency.

We continue daily to mitigate the impact of these challenges and to provide services within the resources available to us. We have a number of strategic service plans across foster care, residential care, aftercare and our people and change strategy that have been developed to address these difficulties and constraints, and we are delivering incremental service improvements. The scale of the challenge remains, however, and the wider societal issues as outlined earlier are impacting the overall effects of our efforts.

We have also begun a transformational reform programme, which will play a key part in ensuring we can continue to provide quality and timely services for the children and families we serve in the future. I assure the committee that we are taking and will continue to take any action we can to improve services for the children and families we serve. We also welcome the highlighting by various external bodies of the hard work of Tusla staff throughout the country in seeking to provide the best possible level of service within the resources available and to ensure the best interests of children and families are at the centre of decision making.

I thank the witnesses for their presentations and information. I have a fair few questions that I will try to get in. I know we have a limited amount of time, but we might get back in for a second round. I will list the questions first and let the witnesses come back in.

In his opening statement, the Minister mentioned that increasing referrals to Tusla can be considered in part due to some changes in the reporting system. Will he clarify what those changes are? Regarding the special emergency arrangements, SEAs, and insufficient placements, the Minister mentioned in his presentation that children entering care are of increasing complexity. I can see from the contribution that due regard is given to international protection and unaccompanied minors, UAMs, but there is very little about homelessness and poverty with regard to those complexities. What are the Minister's thoughts on the intersectionality of those who end up in care?

In his statement, the Minister mentioned a meeting with the UCD sexual exploitation research programme to discuss the report and its findings. Could we get any insight into the outcome of that meeting? What actions have been taken regarding child sexual exploitation since the Minister last addressed the committee in July? Has any additional funding been allocated, etc.?

In 2022, HIQA noted that 28%, or 6,113 active cases, were awaiting allocation to a social worker and that 6% of these children were deemed high-priority. Will Ms Duggan provide an update regarding figures for unallocated cases and which cases out of these are considered high priority? Will she outline the criteria for designating a case as high priority?

The 2022 HIQA report also seems to indicate that services provided to those on the child protection notification database, CPND, were more effective. Given the process of listing a child on this database, is it less likely that certain children and young people would be on it given who must be involved in those CPND meetings in terms of stakeholders and parents?

Ms Duggan stated that a small number of children are in special emergency arrangements. Will she provide us with an exact figure on this and tell us how many are in hotels or bed and breakfast accommodation since she last appeared before this committee? Has anything changed with regard to their supervision?

Regarding special emergency arrangements, what alternatives are being considered? At the last meeting, Ms Duggan mentioned potentially using third-party providers or organisations to provide residential care.

Is there an update on that? Who would those providers be?

I have one more question. With regard to children in care with additional needs, what actions are Tusla and the HSE taking, especially in respect of the joint protocol that is yet to be published? Maybe there is a publication date for that that we could be made aware of.

I will let the Minister come in first.

There were a lot of questions there. I will try to cover them. Some of the more operational ones I will probably leave for Ms Duggan and her team.

The point about complexity is really important because Tusla is dealing with children in care who have a range of needs. Sometimes it is clear that with issues such as mental health and disability, the solutions are not all with Tusla but with other parts of the government and of the State. One of the things I am looking at is how we can better bring all the parties around the table to make sure all the needs of children in care are addressed. One of the things, as we bring the Child Care (Amendment) Bill through the Houses, is the committee on the Child Care Act, which is proposed, I think, under heading 11. I am looking to see if we can strengthen that somewhat so we can bring the other players besides Tusla around the table, particularly in order that when there is an issue of the intersectionality of a child in care and disability, where the HSE is important, or the intersection of a child in care and with mental health issues, where child and adolescent mental health services, CAMHS, are important, we can better co-ordinate that work. Tusla is looking after the elements around care for which it is principally responsible, but other State agencies are more closely involved as well. As that legislation goes through, I am sure we will discuss it here.

I met with one of the authors of the UCD report. We had a very detailed session on it. She took me through the various elements. It was very useful for me. In terms of addressing the specific issues relating to individual instances of potential sexual exploitation, Tusla has done a piece informing our Department to ensure that every one of the issues and concerns raised - I think there were 21 contributors to that report - about sexual exploitation to the authors had been briefed directly to either Tusla or An Garda Síochána using the sexual exploitation protocol that has been in place since 2021. It is a matter of making sure every instance that is mentioned in this report to the authors also went to the appropriate statutory channels. That piece has been done.

The second element is that this report is being referred on to the organisational and institutional abuse working group. That group was set up initially as a response to the St. John Ambulance report by Judge Shannon, but it is now getting the opportunity to review the UCD report. That is commissioning a piece of academic work at the moment, situating that report with other international pieces on institutional or organisational abuse. They will look at things like the Rotherham report, the Rochdale report and other reports internationally in which sexual exploitation of young people was flagged to see what we can learn in situating this report within its wider international context. I hope it will be seen not only that there is a very direct response to the specific instances that were mentioned to the authors but also that we are taking a step back and understanding what the wider response to that report needs to be.

I will hand over to Tusla colleagues.

Ms Kate Duggan

I will start with the increase in referrals to Tusla and the change in the reporting system. That was just about a change we made internally relating to the inclusion of all the welfare referrals into the overall referral rates for Tusla. That is what that refers to.

I will respond to the questions in the order in which I have captured them so we can come back. As for the increase in complexity, particularly in respect of special emergency arrangements, I will talk the Senator through the profile of special emergency arrangements as to where they are and the numbers in a moment. At a point in time, in trying to understand the factors that were contributing to these young people coming into care and many of them being volunteered into care at an older age, when we looked at the underlying contributing factors, we looked at nine indicating factors. A significant number of the children, almost most of them, had at least three or four factors. They range from disability, mental health issues, and domestic, sexual and gender-based violence to really struggling to access mental health services and not being able to access early intervention and disability services or addiction services. There is also the exploitation by the criminal gangs and the fears their parents had for their own safety in that regard. I can touch on that further.

As for special emergency arrangements, the most recent data we have show that, in respect of 10 September, there were 62 children in such arrangements. Within that, it is important to say that only one person was in a hotel. That is something we in the agency have taken very seriously to ensure that there are not young people in hotels or, if they are, that they are there for the very shortest time possible. Of the 62 children, it is also important to say that 53% are over 16. They are in that 16-to-17-year age bracket. Some 43.5% of them are there because there has been a breakdown in a family dynamic and a home arrangement. That is where there has been a breakdown in the home, they are referred to us, and the complexity or the need or the level of risk is so high that we have had to take them into care immediately. It is also important to say that more than half of those young people are in those arrangements for less than eight weeks. That is too long and it is not something we want, but we do recognise the need for a new continuum of emergency care that gives a greater level of independence while being able to provide more integrated services to meet the needs of the young people who are there.

As for the outcome of the meeting on the UCD report and the update, we have also met with the SERP team. We met from two perspectives, first just to make sure that we had assurances that any concerns they had about an individual had been reported to Tusla or the Garda. The whole area of sexual exploitation is something we have been concerned about. I can talk from my own experience. When I came into the agency, we worked very hard in 2021 with the Garda. The Garda has established a particular operation with the force that is about child sexual exploitation. The implementation of that was around lowering the threshold for referral, training all our staff in looking for the signs of any exploitation, including criminal exploitation and sexual exploitation, and making that referral to the Garda at a much lower threshold. What we have seen is that in 2021 Tusla made 14 referrals of child sexual exploitation to the Garda. When we changed our protocol and increased our training, that increased to 27 reports in 2022, and year to date in 2023 there have been 27 reports to the Garda. It is also important to say that in 2023, of the 27 so far, seven are children living in the community whom we are concerned about. They are not in care, so it is a matter of very close engagement with the Garda in responding to them. We have also audited for ourselves where there was a concern in any known case about sexual exploitation within our residential services, and we hear regular reporting on that. Our focus is very much also on engaging with the young people, recognising that some of them do not actually recognise they are being exploited. There is certainly a huge amount of work to be done just around awareness. We are very proud to be the official partner with MECPATHS in respect of its training, not just the training it is doing for Tusla staff and funded staff but across wider organisation. That is very important to us.

As to the Senator's queries about unallocated cases, I will let Mr. Brophy, our chief social worker, talk her through the definition. The most important thing I need to say about building a level of trust within the agency is that when we talk about an unallocated case, it is where a case is not allocated to a social worker.

Most such cases are allocated to another qualified professional who is able to respond to the child’s needs. We are committed to ensuring that the social work within community services is recognised as a valued profession. When we speak about allocating cases, it is about allocating them to the right professionals.

We have done a great deal of work on responding to unallocated cases. The latest figures, which are from June, show a 15% decrease in the number of cases awaiting allocation since January. This is probably as a direct result of the new care pathway that we have introduced to address a number of children with high and complex needs but who are considered low-harm cases where it is more about the cumulative effect of neglect and welfare concerns. We have employed domestic violence workers and have looked at social care workers and a different pathway so that those children are responded to earlier. The new care pathway is at five pilot sites where we have the highest levels of unallocated cases. We are confident that we are making progress.

Would Mr. Brophy like to contribute on any of those points?

Mr. Ger Brophy

On the definition of “high priority”, we have high, medium and low priorities. High priority is where the assessed need is greatest, for example, where a child might be at risk of harm. Generally, those unallocated cases would be allocated to a social worker. Obviously, we are challenged in social work allocation at the moment. The standards for child protection and welfare and for foster care set out the allocation of social work. Cases would always be supervised by a social work team leader and would have other workers allocated to them.

I thank the Minister and the representatives from Tusla for their presentations. Some of my questions have been answered, so I will turn to Tusla first. Ms Duggan has a new remit, which I welcome, but what steps are being taken to find solutions to the issue of foster carer recruitment and retention? What are the challenges to the public taking up this role?

I wish to ask about Tusla’s staffing in community healthcare organisation, CHO, 5, whose remit covers Carlow-Kilkenny. At what capacity is it? I work closely with social workers in my area of Carlow and I can say hand on heart that they are doing a great job, but does Tusla have the number of staff it needs? What changes can be made to provide extra staff across the country?

Turning to the Minister, we speak about joined-up thinking between Departments and so forth. I spoke to the Minister and the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, about this matter previously. There is a significant issue in their Department. Are additional third level places needed for social workers, occupational therapists and speech and language therapists? According to this report, many areas have been affected. In fairness to the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Deputy Harris, 120 extra veterinary places are being provided this year. That is a welcome and good move. Regarding children, these reports, retention issues and recruitment campaigns, have the Departments involved been considering creating extra places so that we can recruit more people? Everyone is doing his or her best and we are constantly told that, although money is an issue, it is not of such a scale as to make it difficult to recruit.

I welcome that, for the first time, the HSE will have a dedicated national youth mental health officer. That is important. Mental health is covered in this report. Ms Duggan spoke about issues within specialty services, for example, disability, mental health and addiction. In Carlow-Kilkenny, there has been an astronomical rise in the number of referral refusals. It is staggering that 54% of all referrals to CAMHS in CHO 5 are being refused. What can we do to move on this? Timing is important. While I welcome the Minister’s remarks on the working group and the UCD report, which we all read, the situation is worrying. There is no question about that. Are timescales being considered in these reports? How can we sort out these apparently long-term issues? We are unquestionably doing our best, but we are speaking about children.

Regarding social workers and so forth, I am working on a case involving a lovely lady who will be working with her grandchild. She needs information, though, and I am trying to get it from Tusla. What pathway is there for information and clarification and what more can we do in that regard?

I spoke to the Cathaoirleach about my next question, which is on St. John Ambulance. She stated that this was not the day for it, and I respect that, but is there an update on funding and supports for the alleged victims?

We will start with the Minister before moving over to Tusla.

The recruitment and retention of social workers and other grades is a major issue in Tusla. It is also a major issue in disability services. The Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, and I are focused on it. Before the recess, she and I met the Minister, Deputy Harris, to discuss the question of how to get more trained roles for the appropriate places. There are a number of ways of doing that, for example, opening up more CAO places, which would be particularly effective in terms of the various therapist posts, and using alternative grades. In the latter respect, we discussed a level 5 occupational therapy assistant or a speech and language therapy assistant doing some work and providing greater levels of intervention. Another way is setting up masters courses so that people with a background in an area can qualify more quickly.

There have been challenges in filling social worker places. This is one of the issues that was flagged last year. Work was done with UCD on trying to understand why people were not taking up social work on as a career. A key point that was identified was a concern about costs, so Tusla now provides a number of bursaries for distance degree courses so that staff can train over a number of years and become social workers. Tusla also has a focused graduate recruitment campaign where it targets everyone who graduates from an Irish university and offers him or her a place within the organisation. This went well last year and, I understand, is even doing a little better this year. I believe Tusla is looking to recruit 165 people or so through this campaign. That is a significant number. Other steps have been taken. Over the past three years during Tusla’s previous corporate plan, we added social work to the critical skills list for international visas. There is also a focused graduate recruitment campaign under way in the Philippines.

A range of measures have been taken and Tusla is taking even more now, including a consideration of the issue of bursaries and trying to make more young people, particularly in secondary school, aware of social work as a career. I believe there is a pilot targeting transition year students. We need to grow the pool of young people who are interested in taking on what is a challenging but incredibly rewarding career in the long term.

Tusla can give specific details, but these are the matters with which the Department can help. We meet quarterly and social worker recruitment and retention is always on our agenda.

Ms Kate Duggan

Our funded workforce is 5,100 and as of July we are at 4,928. We have certainly made progress on this. In terms of green shoots, so far this year 138 of our social worker graduates have been appointed to a Tusla position, as have 34 social care graduates. This is a direct result of us offering any graduate a permanent contract. In terms of international recruitment, we have 70 international social workers going through the progress of CORU registration to be able to work in Ireland. We hope to have 35 more coming through that process in November. This is thanks to the work that has been done on the critical skills list. It is great to hear that Waterford is interested in coming on board with regard to postgraduates. We are seeing a quicker win in the postgraduate supply of social workers. We are funding a pilot programme in Robert Gordon University. The technological universities in Limerick, Waterford and Sligo have additional places this year. Progress is being made.

To answer the queries on foster care, we continually advocate for the need for more foster carers. We certainly recognise, and it is our preference, that most children coming into care at least get the opportunity to be placed in a foster placement first. In very positive news, we have moved from 89% of children in foster care to our most recent figure being 90.6%. Almost 91% of children in care are in foster care. We are delighted with this. As the rate of referrals increases, and given the age profile of foster carers, we need an increased supply. To promote this, all of the recommendations in our foster care strategic plan are being implemented. What foster carers told us at the time was that they want additional supports, including financial supports. The Minister has referred to the additional allowance and the hope this will happen in the budget. They also looked for additional therapeutic supports for children in their care and consistency in the types of supports offered throughout the country. We have appointed a national foster care lead in the agency for the first time. For the first time we are recruiting and appointing six peer support foster care workers and these interviews are taking place. These are people with fostering experience who will mentor other foster carers.

What is also very important is that, thanks to funding from Government last year, for the first time we have been able to establish therapeutic teams throughout the regions. One of these is in the south east. These are therapeutic teams for children who come into care. Our ambition is that we will eventually build this capacity. We recognise that some children have therapeutic needs as a direct result of trauma versus other children who have an underlying mental health issue or disability. They need a trauma-informed approach to therapy. Six of these teams have been appointed. Unfortunately, in the south east we were not able to recruit a speech and language therapist or an occupational therapist but we have gone back out with a recruitment campaign. We want every child coming into care to get a multidisciplinary assessment to inform their care plan. We believe this will provide better support and a better experience for foster carers.

With regard to staffing details in CHO 5 in particular, we can give these to Deputy Murnane O'Connor separately. We do not want to hear what Deputy Murnane O'Connor has said about information sharing. We very much want to be seen as an agency that is open and engaging. It is done through the regional chief officer. We would want to know about any concerns with regard to supporting families.

There is so much we could talk about as this is a very big area. We could probably give a full week of sessions to it. I am not sure the committee secretariat would be very happy with me suggesting this but we could give it a lot of time. We should set the stage with some important context. Referrals to Tusla have increased by 14% from this time last year and it is estimated the increase will be approximately 20% by the end of the year. We are not even speaking about why this is or trying to dig into it. That could take a whole session in and of itself.

Increasing complexity has been mentioned. This is increased again by unmet needs for disability, which is something the committee has spent a lot of time discussing. There is the fact that CAMHS and children's disability network teams, CDNTs, refuse to meet children who have trauma or behavioural issues and simply dismiss these as "behaviour". There is a cohort of young people who are not getting any support whatsoever. It is important to speak about the Child Care Act review and the upcoming legislation. The committee has drafted a prelegislative scrutiny report. Many of these issues dovetail with those important reforms. I trust the Minister is reading the prelegislative scrutiny report diligently.

I am sketching out issues I had wanted to speak about and I hope we will have a second round so that I can raise them. These include increasing referrals, workforce planning, links with the Garda and the structures of these and in-house therapeutic supports. If every child is getting an assessment will there be enough resources to provide therapy afterwards or will they get an assessment without any follow-up? I ask this given that CAMHS is a problem.

What I want to speak about mostly is the issue of alternative care. Alternative care is in a very rocky place and we have all admitted this and said it. Alongside Judge Simms's letter, which was mentioned, we have seen reports from the Child Law Project. Groups such as Empowering People in Care, EPIC, have been making comments and statements and providing analysis. There is an increasing number of special placements and a reducing number of foster carers. There is a broader placement issue in terms of special care. I have spoken to Ms Murphy about this previously.

I will eventually come to questions; I promise that. Something I am struck by is that many of these issues are not something Tusla can solve on its own. Many of the issues I have spoken about overlap with the HSE, the Department of Justice and the Department of Health. There is a need for a national strategy and a cross-departmental strategy. We need interdepartmental help. Many issues that foster carers have are a responsibility of the Department of Social Protection with regard to pensions. If we are to try to salvage alternative care and bring it back from the dangerous brink to which I believe it is heading we need to look at this.

The point needs to be made that when we rely on emergency services and private services they ultimately cost a lot more money. There is an issue of cost effectiveness. I have spoken to social workers signing bills for special emergency placement that are €30,000 or €40,000 a week. The sum of €40,000 could hire another access worker to improve access and the relationship between a child in care and a parent. It would have all sorts of knock-on consequences. It would relieve pressure on social workers so they can get the paperwork done. It is draining Tusla's own resources.

I am conscious that when the committee was speaking about foster care the Irish Association of Social Workers was speaking about the need for a foster care working group to look at it and really understand the problems. For me it is not just about foster care. Foster care is one part of the broader placement problems and the broad problems in alternative care. How is the interdepartmental piece working? Are other Departments playing their role? Tusla cannot solve this alone. I ask the Minister whether other Departments are playing their role. I ask the CEO whether other agencies are playing their role. Are they doing enough? If not, we need to start bringing them together. We need an interdepartmental working group, as was suggested, for foster care but with a much broader remit. Is this something the Minister would consider? It is fundamental and important so that we can dig into the needs of alternative care.

A Tusla strategy of last year spoke about the need to increase Tusla's own capacity. I do not know when Tusla last opened its own unit. We could look into the regulation and inspection of units but we do not have time.

Tulsa wanted to achieve 50:50 public private provision. How is that going and what has been done on it? How is it progressing? What are the roadblocks to it? I believe Tusla offers a significantly more cost-effective approach to things.

Deputy Murnane O'Connor raised a question around funding of supports for victims in relation to St. John Ambulance that was not answered. Can we get an answer to that question?

When we spoke about this before, we spoke about this issue of supports for parents whose children are taken into care. There is an acknowledgement that these things are important but then it is framed as, "The Children's Rights Alliance is running a pilot on that" or "One in Four is providing that service". If it is not necessarily a direct service of Tusla's to deliver, then there is an issue for the State there. I look at the Department of Justice-----

Deputy Costello has gone way over time.

I will finish up really quickly.

The Department of Justice provides specific services for victims of crime and it is time we started provided specific victim-focused services because I am not sure we are doing that right now.

On the question of other Departments playing a role, that is the element I was speaking to with my question to Senator Ruane. We can do better on the co-ordination piece and that is why I am looking at that committee provided for under the draft legislation. Its focus is very much just on the Child Care Act at the moment. Pretty much all the roles under the Child Care Act are just Tusla roles, so it is bringing everyone into the room to check out what Tusla is doing while actually we need everyone in the room talking about what they are doing, what their statutory functions are, and what disability and the child and adolescent mental health service, CAMHS, functions are. That is something I saw and it was flagged in the committee's prelegislative scrutiny, PLS, as well. It is something we can work on as we take that legislation through the Houses. That committee could be a focus for greater interagency co-operation. I would go as far as interagency accountability in terms of the delivery. One of the positives of the enhancement of my Department and bringing disability in is that from a policy side, it is all in-house now. Tusla and disability are all within my Department. Obviously, it still involves two agencies - Tusla and the HSE - but I am hoping that can ensure issues that have existed around the protocol and the like can be conclusively addressed.

The Deputy spoke of the very real pressures on our alternative care system at the moment. He is right and that is why it is important to recognise that Tusla has the three strategies. It has the strategy for foster care, for residential care, and for aftercare as well. Ms Duggan spoke to the significant amount of work that has been done on the foster care strategy. I have a job to do with respect of the allowance for this year's budget. I am not sure if Ms Duggan mentioned it but the appointment of a national lead on foster care is really important. Tusla never had an official whose job it was to lead on the issue of foster care. That has been addressed now and a person has been appointed recently. That is an indication of foster care getting the better recognition it deserves in terms of its importance in the alternative care system.

As to the move to 50:50, Tulsa-community-voluntary versus private needs financial support. We were able to give some in last year's budget. Again, it is one of the things we are negotiating now in the estimates process. That is hugely important from the standards point of view but also from the value-for-money point of view. A very significant driver of Tusla's financial costs is the private side. The Deputy is right, particularly when we do not have adequate private residential capacity and have to rely on the special emergency arrangements, SEAs. They are a particular driver of cost. They have had to be used very significantly in the context of separated children and the response to Ukrainian and international protection children and young people arriving in our country. I know a piece of work is being done at the moment to deliver approximately 76 places, I think, by the end of the year, particularly for Ukrainian young people. Delivering more spaces means a lessened use of the SEAs and that is really important as well.

I am jumping ahead here and apologies to Deputy Murnane O'Connor for missing her question. Following on from the publication of Judge Shannon's report and subsequently the response document from St. John Ambulance, we get a quarterly report on what is happening and the steps St. John Ambulance is taking in response to that. I have engaged with some of the survivors directly as well and have sought updates. Regarding some of the points that have been made and on the national safeguarding lead, a recruitment process is under way at the moment. I think everyone recognises the importance of that particular role being filled. Regarding changes to the board of St. John Ambulance, in our most recent correspondence at the end of June, we were informed that two of the longest serving board members, including the independent chairperson, had stepped down from the board. That is the most recent information we have received from St. John Ambulance. In terms of vetting procedures, what we have been told is that all adults within St. John Ambulance have been appropriately vetted, including through Garda vetting, and that the appropriate Tusla online safeguarding training certification has now been completed. In order to support this, St. John Ambulance is now using a software system called Traumasoft, which is specifically designed to ensure and monitor that any member of the organisation engaging with staff has full Garda vetting.

On the issue of the provision of counselling, and this is something on which I was asked to follow up directly, we have been informed in our most recent correspondence from St. John Ambulance that it is possible for victims of abuse by a member of St. John Ambulance to apply to a range of listed and recognised counselling organisations and that those organisations will then inform St. John Ambulance that this request has come in and will seek payment. Therefore, the victim will not have to go to St. John Ambulance to request a link be made. That is the information we have been given by St. John Ambulance and we specifically asked that question on foot of concerns that were raised with us. I hope that goes someway to addressing those points.

I thank the Minister. Did Ms Duggan want to come in on some of those points?

Ms Kate Duggan

The only thing I would add is on the strategy referred to there. Tusla has purchased nine houses which would give us 36 beds if we make them four-bed units. The biggest challenge is staffing and so our focus now is on looking at the skill mix, the ratios, and the qualifications for residential care.

The other thing I want to correct for the record is that when I spoke about the 62 young people in special emergency arrangements, there are also 100 separated children or young people on any one night in a special emergency arrangement. Therefore, when I referred to the 62, that was our mainstream services. If we think about our separated children seeking international protection, we have gone from 150 referrals to the service in 2021 to 597 in 2022. In 2021 we had 90 children in the care of Tusla while today, we have 256 children. That is 256 beds that we have had to add into the system and that certainly is impacting our ability in terms of the public private ratio. As was said, we do not want special emergency arrangements as a feature, particularly in terms of value for money, and it is about eliminating and reducing them.

I thank the speakers for their contributions thus far. I hear figures and that we are down 15% in the number of cases awaiting allocation. Some 28% of children are awaiting allocation of a social worker and we have an improved figure on that. There is a 15% improvement in unallocated cases.

That is 15% of the 28%, which is an improvement of 4.2%. That means 23% of children still do not have a social worker. That is almost one in four in State care or where the State has intervened who do not have a social worker. In committee rooms like this we can talk about statistics and we can talk about high-level numbers, but that is actually a child who does not have that support. I need to know what that means for that child. What support do they not have? What opportunities do they not have? They already come from a traumatised situation requiring the intervention of the State. What is the State not providing them with now? What does an average week or day look like as a consequence of that unallocation, so to speak? I would like an answer to that, and I also have a follow up question.

Ms Kate Duggan

I will ask the chief social worker to speak to that.

Mr. Ger Brophy

On the subject of unallocation, in particular children in care, we are concerned about any child in care who is unallocated. Over recent years we have had a prioritisation in place, which is different from the high, medium and low that we talk about in child protection and welfare cases. For children in care to be unallocated, they would have to be in a stable placement. Their needs would have to recognised as being less than other children's needs, so that the children with the greatest needs would be prioritised. We have a system for that - high, medium and low - which is separate from the child protection and welfare one. Typically, those children would be in long-term stable placements. They would not be in residential care. If they were in residential care, they would be prioritised for allocation. They would be with foster carers, perhaps, with whom they might have been for a long period of time. They would still have somebody to do their care planning with them, but it would not be an ongoing contact with an allocated social worker. There is no doubt that this is not the service we would desire for those children. Typically it would be a social care worker, a family support worker or, in some cases, an access worker who might have a relationship with those children over a long period of years, would know the extended family and would organise or supervise that access.

Those unallocated children in care typically are not the ones of highest need. We also try to make sure we have foster link workers, or link workers as we call them internally. A social worker working with a foster family would be allocated to those children. Again, they would have a relationship with those foster parents if a social worker were not available in the community. While they would not be an allocated social worker, they are a link with those children. We are trying to be as flexible as we can to ensure the person who knows those children best and the children with the recognised least need are the ones who are unallocated on that list. However, they still get a service.

Two things will come out of that, I suppose. We have in care and not in care. Are there children who are not in care who do not have a allocated social worker? What percentage is that and what are they missing as a consequence? I also want to state that I do not doubt for a minute the dedication, so I am not casting any aspersions on that. I just want to know what a child is missing as a consequence.

Mr. Ger Brophy

For children not in care, we also have high, medium and low. Children identified as being somewhere where there may be harm or where an investigation is needed to establish whether there is harm are high priority. In those cases they are the priority for allocation. Those children of lower priority who are unallocated may be welfare cases, as we refer to them. The ones where harm is not positively identified may be receiving some sort of support from the family support worker, social care workers, or from some of the voluntary organisations we work with. We have that variety where we prioritise those children with the greatest need, and they will get a social work service. The others will have a worker working with them so they get that level of support too.

I appreciate that, and I thank Mr. Brophy. When we talk about prioritising a child for allocation, how long does that process take, once there is an identification? Presumably, a child is identified and there is some sort of assessment of which category they fall into. How long are they waiting an allocation, and is there a geographical challenge in that allocation?

Mr. Ger Brophy

There definitely is.

Ms Clare Murphy

The screening process at the initial stage for child protection and welfare is very quick, but the allocation of a social worker is such that if you are in one part of the country, it could mean you have a longer time to wait unallocated because we have a deficit of staff.

I am not being picky, and I really appreciate the answer, but when we say very quick or that someone may be waiting a while, what exactly does that mean? Give me a ballpark figure timewise.

Ms Clare Murphy

You will be very quickly assessed once you have made contact. Once a referral is made into the service you could be assessed within a number of weeks. However, once it is assessed that your assessed need is not immediate, every single child referred to Tusla who is at immediate risk of harm gets allocated immediately on the day.

No matter where they live.

Ms Clare Murphy

No matter where they live. We then assess the children at either medium or low. We look at all the factors, we make a safety plan, we put in as much safety as possible and say that, on balance, given we have insufficient resources, that cohort of children can wait a period of time. That period of time absolutely depends on staffing in that area at that time. When we say they wait, we have governance and oversight. They are continually audited. Any new information that comes in which raises the risk factor means the child gets allocated immediately.

Another thing I want to say is that, as the Child and Family Agency, we want every single child who comes to Tusla, whether for child protection and welfare, fostering or residential care, to have an allocated social worker. Our challenge is we just do not have the social workers. When we do our workforce planning, we are not going to have the social workers. We know this in 12 to 18 months and in 24 months. We are trying to establish what are the tasks that only a qualified social worker can do and that a child needs them to do. They are the tasks we will get a professionally qualified social worker to do. We are now having to look at what other roles, grades and professions we can bring in to enhance the child's life, because we cannot and we are not in a position to allocate the child to a social worker. We are doing a lot of work on workforce planning. We are doing a lot of work on different grades. We are in touch with CORU. We are in touch with the Department. We are making every possible effort to surround the child with help and support, but we cannot always make it a qualified registered social worker.

That sounds very sensible and proactive and I commend Ms Murphy on that. How long does the CORU process take?

Ms Clare Murphy

Mr. Brophy would know that better.

Mr. Ger Brophy

It would take eight weeks if you were educated in the country and you have no issues arising. If you have issues, such as when Garda vetting is taking longer because you spent some time outside the country or you were qualified outside the country, then the time increases.

Mr. Ger Brophy

It could be 12 or 14 weeks or it could be six months or a year if people are coming from outside the country. Typically, when we are recruiting from abroad, people apply to CORU for registration because you have to be registered to work in the country. They will get a letter outlining to them that maybe they need to do 630 or 1,000 hours of work to become qualified and they need to do that in a supervised placement. We introduced a grade some years ago, which is an interim children's services worker, so that we could accommodate people returning from maternity leave or other places where they had not been registered, or people coming from abroad. We would take them on at that new grade. We would give them the supervised hours, and then they would qualify for CORU. We are trying to be creative in terms of getting people qualified as well.

This leads me to the working conditions of social workers. We are at a stage where someone goes into social work because they have a passion and an interest, and that is fostered in the education system as well. They then get out in the field and they know they are in an environment where perhaps they are working with the three out of four, knowing there is a child out there who is not getting allocated. If that is the case, they are working to their maximum capacity. We know the attrition rate is very high and that a child can go through many social workers in a period. The obvious answer to what I am about to ask is: recruit more people. How would we improve the working conditions? Improved working conditions would surely also help retain those the witnesses go to such lengths to try to attract. What could be done to increase there?

Ms Kate Duggan

First of all, it is very important to say that the retention of staff is as important to us as the recruitment of staff. One of the things we did last November was the first ever Tusla-wide employee survey. It is very positive that over 60% of our staff completed that survey. That is very high in respect of public sector organisations' engagement and staff were very honest in that feedback. Staff told us that for the most part their physical environment was good, their technological enablement was good and working with their team directly was good. What they also clearly told us, however, was that they did not have enough face-to-face time with clients, that there were complex and standard business processes which were too complex, and that they felt that much of their work was compliance-based and, to use the phrase, box-ticking.

In response to that, we have a comprehensive people strategy, which we will not go into here, but this has very much been around getting staff to identify the solutions for us. Each area has now come back with their ideas for how we can improve all of that with regard to their working conditions and each area has their own retention plan. That has also come from the fact that there is inequity with regard to how our services are currently structured. There is inequity with regard to the level of risk that some teams are holding vis-à-vis other teams. Therefore, our reform programme is very much around that multidisciplinary team, that variety of professionals, bringing in that element of a wider team, wider support, sharing the risk, and simplifying our business processes to free up and ensure staff have more face-to-face time, while at the same time recruiting through the international recruitment and through the graduate campaign but with a very clear and definitive focus on retention as well as recruitment for all of our staff. Our administrative staff are also burdened at the moment with the increase in the rate of referrals, as are our social care staff in the community and residential services. While it is very important to talk about our social work staff, it is also very important to talk about the diversity of staff and the challenge that is facing all of our staff when the demands are so great on the agency.

I am mindful that if we are in a position where the allocations go to the highest need, then the client load of each social worker will be more complex and there are not perhaps easy wins which give initial job reward to keep going and to keep their heart up. I would be concerned about things like that.

I have one last question for the Minister and I thank Ms Duggan very much. The Minister reported with regard to the St. John Ambulance Ireland and I very much appreciate that. I am not going to get into anything because we will be told off by the Chair.

I would say two things. First, what have we learned about the safeguarding? We had a very frank and excellent session with Tusla, but one of the things that has come out of this has been the lack of teeth in child protection when it comes to non-statutory funding. Obviously that is up in the air and there is a bit of a dispute about that with regard to that particular organisation. For organisations in general where there is a child protection obligation but no teeth to enforce it in the way there would be with a different organisation where there is at least the withholding of funding, among other things, what have we learned from that and what is the plan to address that?

Second, I do not believe a counselling service is a service, even where there is a list of people you can go to and they will contact an organisation to say Mary has been in touch and we are going to give them hours. However, where there is also highly contentious and aggressive litigation going on, I do not believe that is a service, to be perfectly honest. I would be interested in the safeguarding issue, however. Where do we give that teeth and where is that going?

I thank the Senator very much. On the funding point, we have further information, following on from the discussion we had in the Seanad, which we might just send to the Chair and which could be circulated to Deputies and Senators, with regard to a better breakdown, particularly for 2018 and 2019, on the issue of funding. Just to mention again, there is no annual funding of that particular organisation but it will be seen there is Covid funding and other elements of once-off funding, and that is what that information will show.

We believe it is very important that we take the learnings of the investigation into what happened in St. John Ambulance Ireland and the benefit of the work undertaken by Mr. Justice Shannon. That is why Tusla and my Department have jointly set up the organisational and institutional abuse working group, which is to look at how organisations like this and other organisations can better understand the potential risks within their own organisation and how the State, my Department and Tusla can better police those instances.

In the first instance, this new working group has been asked to examine Mr. Justice Shannon's report and bring recommendations back to both ourselves and to Tusla on the steps to be taken and the issues of child safeguarding. The safeguarding statement will be among those issues that that working group examines.

Does the Minister have a timeline?

As I referenced earlier, there is a piece of academic research about to be commissioned to assist in that. I hope once that is completed, which will take some period of time, that it is important we get the benefit of reviews that have taken place elsewhere on similar issues to fully understand and to fully design responses.

I thank the Minister and the Chair.

I know Senator Ruane wishes to make a contribution and we will have time to bring her back in because, in fairness, she has had the least time so far. I call Senator Clonan to speak first and I will then bring the Senator in to speak.

I thank the Cathaoirleach and I also thank the Minister very much for his statement and for everything that has followed. My apologies that I had to attend the Committee on Disability Matters. I have an interest in safeguarding, particularly when it comes to sexual violence, sexual assault and rape. In 2000, I completed a PhD, a doctorate, while serving as an Army officer. I set out very clearly and explicitly the levels of sexual violence in our armed forces, the causes and the patterns of that abuse, and I set out in great detail some of the solutions.

That was the beginning of a journey of reprisal against me and my family, pushback and denial. The reason I am mentioning this is because, despite a Government inquiry and report which investigated my research and fully vindicated its findings and which found that not only were female personnel subjected to sexual violence in this way but male personnel were also targeted for rape, in 2021, 21 years later, the Women of Honour come forward, make fresh disclosures and the independent review group reports this year, 2023, and finds that the culture has not changed. On safeguarding, I gave a very clear warning 23 years ago and no meaningful action was taken. As a consequence, in the interim, over the past two decades, hundreds of young men and women - sailors, soldiers and aircrew - have been subjected to life-limiting and life-altering experiences which were foreseeable, avoidable and preventable. Have those who were bystanders or the people who participated in the reprisal against me ever been held to account? No, they have been promoted.

There is a dynamic in Ireland. I have had 23 years to reflect on this, the dynamics of the bystander effect in action leading to an exacerbation of the system and of that situation. It is in that context and informed by that life experience, research, subsequent research and collaborations with people like Professor Kate Kenny in the University of Galway, and I am delighted to see the Minister met the authors - I wrote to the Chair and asked that they come in to talk to us about that - and it is within the theme of safeguarding that I would like to know what changes St. John Ambulance has made in the wake of the Shannon report.

What actions has it taken to ensure this does not continue or happen again? Is the board still in place today and, if so, why? I have a direct "Yes" or "No" question for the Minister. Is he confident children within the St. John Ambulance organisation are safe?

Just to say Senator, I am very conscious no one from St. John Ambulance is here to speak or defend the organisation, so I ask you to be very careful in the language you are using. In fairness, the Minister actually addressed some of these points earlier. I am conscious, Senator, that you had to go to the disability matters committee. The first two questions are fine and I ask if you can leave your remarks at that.

Thanks Chair. I apologise as I obviously missed the Minister's response on that. I ask him to address the questions I asked, given everything we have learned about how Ireland rolls with regard to this. Abusers are protected and shielded. Organisations' default position is to protect themselves and their reputations. Very far down the line is the welfare of those who have been targeted and those who have survived; they are always the last. For the people who call out wrongdoing in Ireland, it is also a life-limiting and life-altering act.

The Minister may wish to repeat what he said earlier.

I thank the Cathaoirleach. A direct question was put. St. John Ambulance now has a fully up-to-date child safeguarding statement and that is important. It is a basic requirement. One of the points I made is the organisation is in the recruitment process for a national safeguarding lead. It is positive to see that happening and it is one of the steps it committed to following the Shannon report. However, only when that person is in position and undertaking that role will I be fully satisfied as to the absolute safety of every child within that organisation. That step is taking place, but it needs to have happened and the person needs to be in post before I am absolutely satisfied because when one looks at the history of the organisation, that role is essential for being able to provide confidence to everybody.

I spoke to some of the changes and responses to Judge Shannon's report that have been made. There has been replacement of some of the board members, which is positive. A vetting system has been put in place. There is a quarterly update provided to my Department on the various steps, but we need to see all those steps completed. However, it is not just about officers. This maybe speaks to the Senator's original point about culture and ethos that he made with reference to the context of the Defence Forces, because one of the real themes that came through Judge Shannon's report was the militaristic, command-led ethos in this particular organisation. It had military features from the uniforms, to a secretive board and even to the gradings within the organisations. Judge Shannon was very clear all that must change, that the ethos of this organisation must change, that it cannot have any sort of military trappings about it anymore in terms of what it is doing. Again, the appointment of the national safeguarding officer and having someone in situ undertaking that role will provide me with much greater confidence going forward.

I thank the Minister for his frank response, which I appreciate. I apologise again to the Chair that I did not hear the earlier contributions.

It is totally fine. I thank the Senator.

Senator Ruane has a few additional points.

I thank the Cathaoirleach, I have a few all right. I have lots. I want to pick up on something related to Senator Seery Kearney's contributions teasing out the social worker piece and what happens when there is an unallocated child, especially if that unallocation happens while her or she is in care. It is hard for me to comprehend the idea of the highest need, when the fact is the person is in contact with Tusla because he or she is already of the highest need when it comes to children. Then we begin to categorise further within what is already hardship. I would not like to be in the position of having to look at it in that way, but I understand there must be frameworks put around how to provide something when resources are low. I then became concerned with the unallocated person, because we already know how difficult it is for parents to utilise the fact they do not even have a social worker, but that the social worker the children have is supposed to act as a liaison or some sort of support, so now it is not only the child who is unallocated but the family who is completely unallocated. Any extra supports that are given are going to focus on the child, so it feels like the parent is then even further out to sea because he or she is not being seen as the one who is unallocated, rather the child is. It is just something that came to my mind about what happens to the parent in that regard and the supports for them.

On retention, we can look at the institutes of technology, ITs, and all those different routes, but I am more thinking about my experience of coming through community education and the fact lots of community education colleges have partnerships with universities. An Cosán has youth and community development with Maynooth University. There are relationships with community colleges and Carlow in relation to the development of IT. I am wondering whether the Department is looking at ways to provide social work degrees at a community level, where it is much more accessible for people who may not see university as a route for them. Also on the area of recruitment and retention, a couple of years ago the idea was mooted of giving a higher rate of pay to social workers in urban areas because of the cost of living. Has the Department ever considered such proposals in order to have retention in those more condensed spaces?

On supervision, I am wondering whether the agency officials can clarify what they see supervision as. Is the supervision concerned with the caseload or with the impact the work has on them? That obviously ties into the retention piece. I am also wondering about the private providers. Are they encountering the same difficulties with recruitment and retention or staffing and resourcing? If not, why not? When there is not a properly-regulated placement available to a child or young person, what exactly happens? What happens to that child and who is responsible? Is there a child left leaving court on a given day with nowhere to go? In the worst-case scenario of a bed and breakfast or hotel, what exactly happens in that situation? What about the agency's long-term strategy to reduce the reliance on the private sector? New foster carers were spoken about earlier as well. In many reports it says they were mainly recruited over the years through word of mouth, but recently the Foster Care Association indicated 76% of foster carers would not recommend foster caring to other families, which is obviously a real concern. What are the witnesses' thoughts on that in general? I am skipping over questions I feel have been answered. On the Barnahus model, can the Department comment on whether there is an expansion on the way for that to extend to other parts of the country with funding and resourcing?

Also on the Department, to what extent has it contributed to the establishment of the child poverty office within the Department of the Taoiseach? We have spoken about cross-agency and multidisciplinary work, so I am wondering what role the Minister's Department has played in that work to date, if any.

The final question is what does the agency do for children who have a parent in prison. It is something I read about in the statement that came in from Judge Simms. I have worked for a long time with men in prison, but also in a personal capacity I have an awareness and a concern that when a parent is in prison there is no obligation to ensure that parent has regular visitation unless the foster parent or the parent who has care decides he or she wants to do that.

There is no obligation and the second parent can become isolated. I wonder if the witnesses have any comments on this aspect.

Many of those questions concern Tusla, so we will start with its representatives.

Ms Kate Duggan

Okay. I will take the queries on the private providers and unregulated placements and then ask Ms Murphy and Mr. Brophy to comment on supervision and social work. On the private providers, going on how I see it in my note, these are struggling with staffing. It is important to say that this year we have established two forums to bring together the community and voluntary sector and the private sector, from where services are procured on our behalf. This is being done to look at what the issues are in respect of recruitment and retention in the context of training, upskillling awareness and all those things. These issues are being experienced in the community and voluntary sector. When we talk about the strategic actions we are taking to try to reduce the number of special emergency arrangements, this endeavour is concerned with trying to scale capacity, specifically in the community and voluntary sector. We know that for those providers pay restoration is an issue, as is the payment of costs in respect of residential placements. We are working with them around increases in this regard. We need the community and voluntary sector. The nine houses we are scaling are statutory, but we want the community and voluntary sector to scale this.

Turning to unregulated placements, when we take the week I referenced in respect of the 62 young people in special emergency arrangements, almost three-quarters of them are in a privately-leased property, such as an apartment or a house, and they have an allocated social worker. These young people are a priority and every one of them has an allocated social worker and a care plan. These placements must be approved following consideration of all the different options available. They get their weekly visits and the benefits of what is a residential placement without getting the regulation. Regarding this lack of regulation, we are trying to encourage new providers to the market to move towards becoming registered providers of single-occupancy emergency placements and having an agreed fixed cost in this regard. This is where we are at in terms of trying to ensure these providers are becoming more regulated. I say this because what we have seen, particularly post-Covid-19, is a significant increase in need. As I said, the 41% in the context of placement breakdown concerns situations where the Garda is involved and where we must provide accommodation. No young person is left without a bed or a safe place on any night. It is very important for us to be able to respond to this need.

Regarding fostering, reference was made to the 76% not recommending it. We know that survey was specifically targeted at the financial supports provided to foster carers in respect of the fostering allowance and the pension. We also know from our own consultations, though, that, as I said earlier, foster carers want other supports apart from those concerned with fostering. They want the peer support workers we have allocated, the therapeutic supports, more consistent communication and all these things we have spoken about. This is what we feel will attract new foster carers.

Turning to Barnahus, I know the Senator has referred this to the Department, and it may wish to comment on that, but work is going on at a national level in terms of the interdepartmental group in respect of rolling out the Barnahus model to the south, with a location in Cork, and to the east, with a location in Dublin. I can respond in more detail on this point if it is not answered. Mr. Brophy will comment on the supervision caseload and the kind of impact and work involved when a parent is in prison.

Mr. Ger Brophy

Turning to the supervision element, we do have a supervision policy in Tusla. There are four aspects to it. We have adopted a model over a long time that looks at the support any individual worker needs. It is certainly not counselling, and we are not aiming to provide counselling. Counselling is available in the organisation where an individual worker is stressed or needs support in this regard. This is about management and reflective practice as well, and about looking at what happens in a case, the impact that has on the worker and how we can build resilience in this regard. Mentoring and coaching are also available, separate from supervision, but as part of the context.

Another aspect, which is not part of the supervision process but is a part of how we are organised in Tusla, is a caseload review mechanism. If we have a large number of vacancies in an area, though, then a caseload review mechanism is not going to be as useful as when all the posts have been filled. What this mechanism has allowed us to do, at times when we have had all our vacancies filled, is to identify where the unmet need is. We measure our caseloads, right across the country and objectively, and yet it is done by the person who is being supervised and his or her team leader. This has certainly enabled me as a manager in the past to identify where to target resources. We have a system there, so if we can fill the posts we have and increase the throughput, this will be very effective. We are, though, very concerned about this issue and we know that the impact of the work on the person is a key element of recruitment.

Moving to the question of a person in prison, one of the lessons we have again learned in recent years is that keeping men involved in families is important. Involving them in the assessment is important, whether they are in prison or elsewhere. It certainly applies when they are in prison. There are obviously certain restrictions in terms of visitations and times, etc., and we must work within those aspects. We value this approach very much, though, and we value the men's role and support this facilitation. In Limerick, in particular, the Bedford Row Family Project has a long history of involvement in this context and in supporting and supervising access and the family role. We were involved in supporting recent research ongoing there. We obviously need and depend on the Department of Justice, and we work with it on this topic. I reiterate that we very much value the role of the men and this is something which we again try to do in as many different situations as we can, but we do not always have the resources or the facilities to do it. I hope this answers the question.

Would the Minister like to comment briefly?

Yes. On the specific question of a higher rate for social workers in Dublin, this is not a proposal that has come to me to date. Turning to the issue of alternative pathways towards a career in social work, one of the things being examined by ourselves and Tusla now is the possibility of having an apprenticeship model for qualification as a social worker. There is a bit to go in this process yet, but both sides are certainly very open to this model because it recognises that the purely academic route is a challenge for some people. This is the case for some candidates who potentially would have many of the key skills we need to see in those working as social workers.

Is there potential that such an approach could come up against the same obstacles as the youth work apprenticeships seem to be facing with respect to who funds the placements? An apprenticeship is not a role already recognised in the budget of an organisation or agency, so there would need to be increased funding. I am aware that the youth work apprenticeship scheme is coming up against issues concerning who funds the apprentice, because the projects or the youth work sector does not have the money to pay the apprentice. I am wondering if this has been-----

Between us, we have provided support for Tusla staff, who are not social workers, to train as social workers. We have provided a bursary for them to do so. I imagine, therefore, that we would need to provide-----

-----a financial support for this model as well.

Okay. I thank the Minister.

Mr. Ger Brophy

We can take on assistant social workers or assistant child protection workers, or use some other title, and part of these people's route to employment would be this qualification. That is what we would envisage with the apprenticeship model, if we can get it off the ground.

I thank Mr. Brophy.

We must look at all routes to increase recruitment. Turning to the Senator's final point on the child poverty unit, we have been involved with its formation. A former principal officer from our Department, Ms Anna Visser, is now the head of this Child Poverty and Well-being Programme Office. We engaged with the Department of the Taoiseach and the Taoiseach himself in respect of setting the priorities for this new office. If we look at the five key areas listed, one is how early learning and care can assist all children, but particularly those at risk of poverty. This aspect obviously falls full square within the remit of my Department. The issue of supports for families and parents must also be examined, because this new office is concerned with poverty and well-being. This latter element is important as well and much of the work Tusla does is also in these areas. The new unit, therefore, is very much focusing on our areas.

Turning to the last question, yes, we are seeking to expand the Barnahus model. I visited Barnahus West, I think it was last year, and I was hugely impressed with the team over there and the degree of integration. As Ms Duggan said, we are looking to expand the model initially in the south and then into Dublin for Barnahus East. There is a need to secure a budget, capital and current, but this is something we are working on. We see that model is working in the west.

I thank everyone. We have just time enough for this session. It is good timing. I thank the Minister, the officials, Ms Duggan and everybody here from Tusla as well. I also thank the committee members. I just need to get agreement to publish the opening statements on the Oireachtas website. Is that agreed? Agreed. We will suspend now for a few minutes to allow the witnesses to leave the room before our next session.

Sitting suspended at 7.40 p.m. and resumed at 7.50 p.m.

In this session we are delighted to by joined by Ms Caoilfhionn Gallagher KC, Special Rapporteur on Child Protection. It is our first opportunity to engage with her since she commenced her role. We wish her the best in the role and she is very welcome to this meeting.

On parliamentary privilege, for any witness who is appearing before the committee virtually I need to point out that there is uncertainty if parliamentary privilege will apply to their evidence if given from a location outside the parliamentary precincts of Leinster House. Therefore, if they are directed by me to cease giving evidence in respect of a particular matter it is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise nor make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity they will be directed to discontinue their remarks and again it is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

I invite Ms Gallagher to make her opening statement.

Ms Caoilfhionn Gallagher

Good evening chair, members of the committee, and committee staff. My apologies that I am not there in person; as I think members know, weather intervened so I am joining the meeting remotely. I thank the committee for extending this invitation to me this evening and indeed for the late hour it is sitting to have this session. I was appointed to the role in February of this year, and this is the first occasion on which I am appearing before the committee. I am very grateful for the opportunity, and for the committee’s timely focus on this vital issue of child protection. As special rapporteur, a key focus of my role is ensuring that children’s rights principles are embedded in legislative and policy frameworks to ensure Ireland meets its obligations under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, UNCRC, and Article 42A.1 of the Constitution with respect to child protection.

An Taoiseach began his current term with an ambitious vision: to make Ireland the “best country in Europe to be a child,” echoing the language of the Government’s August 2019 children and youth policy, which states: “The Government aims to improve outcomes for children and young people and make Ireland one of the best countries in which to grow up and raise a family.” I acknowledge at the outset that there have been a number of recent significant steps taken in respect of child protection, which indicate the Government’s commitment to that vision. In particular, I highlight three recent developments, namely the establishment of the child poverty and well-being programme office in the Department of An Taoiseach, and publication of its initial programme plan for 2023 to 2025; and commencement of the process of reform, albeit long overdue, of the statutory framework concerning child welfare and child protection through both the Child Care (Amendment) Act 2022 and the progression of the Child Care (Amendment) Bill 2023. As I indicated in my written submission to the committee regarding the general scheme of the Bill, I welcome and support the Government’s commitment to reform child care and child protection law, and to deliver more child-centred legislation. Of course there are a number of outstanding matters to be resolved. The third item I welcome is the Online Safety and Media Regulation Act 2022, the new Coimisiún na Meán and its significant powers.

While acknowledging that these steps are meaningful and important, and welcoming An Taoiseach’s ambitious vision, there are persisting significant and grave concerns regarding child protection in a range of areas. In my view, there is a realisation gap. While there is an undoubted respect for and commitment to children’s rights in principle, which is to be commended and welcomed, in practice there remain significant difficulties, resulting in children being at risk. I commenced my role in February 2023. At the time, the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child was in the process of publishing its concluding observations on the combined fifth and sixth periodic reports of Ireland. The concluding observations raise a very wide range of serious concerns, spanning diverse issues, and make clear that detailed, extensive cross-sector reform is required to give effect to the UNCRC. They highlight six particular areas in which the committee said urgent measures must be taken by Ireland. They are non-discrimination, violence against children, mental health, standard of living, education and child justice. It is a wide range of issues. Each of those is in turn broken down by the UN committee into a lengthy list of measures that it says need to be urgently addressed along with other matters it says need to be addressed but are not as urgent. The scale and depth of the problems laid bare by the UN committee is extensive and should not be underestimated. It is clear that there is substantial work to be done for Ireland to meet its international legal obligations, and this must be done urgently. Key questions for the Government are whether and, if so, when, it will implement those urgent measures identified as necessary by the UN committee at the start of this year.

For my part tonight, I wish to draw to the members’ attention six topics which I consider to be particularly pressing in respect of child protection in Ireland at present. I did hear some of the previous session and I have views and thoughts on many of the issues which arose, which I hope will also come up in discussion. There are six topics I wanted to outline at the outset. Each of these, of course, raises general, systemic concerns. I do not doubt for a moment the commitment and expertise of many of the professionals involved in those systems. I want to make that clear.

The first of the six items I wish to highlight is mental health services, CAMHS. It is impossible not to focus on the crisis in child and adolescent mental health services, as I appreciate many of the committee members have been doing. It is one of the urgent topics identified by the UN committee and now laid bare in the findings of mental health services inspector, Dr. Susan Finnerty, in her recent final report. She has identified “ongoing and serious deficits” in Ireland’s mental health services for children and young people, increasing the risk to them. Her findings are wide-ranging, including severe understaffing with the vast majority of teams across the country being significantly below recommended staffing levels. She found also that care planning for some children was either non-existent or of such poor quality as to be effectively meaningless and tokenistic. She also found that CAMHS does not have a proper IT system for monitoring patients. In contrast to that language from An Taoiseach about wanting to be the best in Europe, she said at the launch of the report, that Ireland is “amongst the worst in the world for IT infrastructure in youth mental health services". This is a key child protection issue, and extremely pressing. The root and branch reform Dr Finnerty has identified is critical. Resourcing is plainly a key issue, as the final report identified and as other stakeholders have made clear, and as many children and young people, and their families, know all too well given lengthy waiting lists. Some children wait up to two years for an appointment. One liaison psychiatrist in CAMHS in Dublin responded to the report in a piece reported in The Irish Times. I refer to Professor Elizabeth Barrett. Her quote is telling. She said: “funding levels are really, really low so I think we should ask ourselves if we’re taking ourselves seriously. There’s a lot of political discussion but the funding levels remain low.”

The second item I wish to highlight is the letter of retired District Court Judge Simms of May 2023, recently published by the Child Law Project, in which he expressed his utmost concern for children in the care of the State. He described being informed in court over the past year by Tusla and its lawyers that the system is in a state of unprecedented crisis. He highlighted staffing and retention shortages; and the lack of properly regulated suitable placements for foster care, residential placements and special secure care. He also noted difficulties with interagency communication. He called for co-ordinated, immediate action to address those failures, not a silo but co-ordinated interagency response. That lack of suitable placements has again been an issue this month. I wish to draw to the committee's attention a recent, distressing example that should be considered, dating from 4 September 2023, when the President of the High Court, Mr Justice David Barniville, ordered “with a heavy heart” that a chronically suicidal 16-year-old girl now attempting to take her life on a near daily basis must remain in an inappropriate placement, in a psychiatric unit, as a special care place has not so far been allocated to her.

It was reported that the court was told that staff interventions are keeping the girl alive, but the situation sometimes requires up to six staff to restrain her suicide attempts. The president’s reported remarks in the hearing are important in respect of the realisation gap between children’s rights in principle and children's rights in practice to which I have referred. He queried why Ireland is a country with not enough places for these children “while awash with money in other areas.”

The third issue to highlight is child sexual exploitation, CSE. Reference was made in the earlier session to University College Dublin's, UCD’s, sexual exploitation research programme, SERP, and its findings in June 2023, which were deeply concerning, about the extent of organised child sexual exploitation in Ireland. Of course, many of the SERP findings echoed findings made in the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse, IICSA, in England and Wales, that is, the investigation into CSE by organised networks, which reported in February 2022. There is a particularly grave concern regarding the safety of children and young people, especially girls, in residential care or who go missing while in State care, who are being targeted for sexual exploitation in an organised manner by co-ordinated networks or gangs of predatory men. SERP identified a concern that CSE is hidden as people in authority are not recognising or understanding the risks and signs, and there are barriers to reporting. I recognise that efforts are being made by Tusla and An Garda Síochána to address those challenges in a number of ways. However, I support SERP’s call for targeted nationwide action in the form of a national policy on protecting children from sexual exploitation for which the Department would hold responsibility.

The fourth issue is child trafficking and information gaps. Last week, the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission, IHREC, as independent rapporteur on trafficking, published its second evaluation of the implementation of the EU anti-trafficking directive. Of particular concern to me and I hope to this committee are the figures concerning child victims of trafficking. Those figures show that no child victims whatsoever were identified in Ireland in 2020. No child victims were identified whatsoever in 2021 and in 2022, only five child victims were identified. In total, that is only five children identified over the past three years. IHREC reports that the majority of those five children were trafficked for sexual exploitation. Those statistics mean that children represent only 8% of all identified trafficking victims in Ireland, which is significantly below the EU average of 23%. I am concerned that both the very low absolute figure of five children in three years and that percentage of 8% of all victims suggests that, first, there is significant under-identification of child victims of trafficking in Ireland and, second, there is likely to be disproportionate under-identification of child victims in comparison to adult victims. That is a serious child protection concern. Going back to the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child, it identified and highlighted at the start of this year information gathering gaps as a particular child protection concern.

I am conscious that these are long issues, but I will deal briefly wit the fifth and sixth issues. The fifth issue concerns separated children and accompanied minors. Of course, Tusla’s report for 2022 makes clear that the agency has faced a significant increase in separated or unaccompanied children requiring accommodation and services. A number of factors have contributed to that, including the Russian invasion of Ukraine and a number of other matters to which other witnesses have referred.

Coinciding with this increasing demand for Tusla's services have been a number of child protection concerns, which were raised in those recent HIQA inspection reports and recent press reports regarding a Tusla internal report dating from March 2023 that found that there is a lack of oversight in Tusla’s management of reports to gardaí of suspected abuse of unaccompanied minors in State care from Ukraine and other countries seeking asylum. Tusla in that internal report said it could not be assured it was notifying gardaí in a timely manner of suspected sexual or physical abuse of child refugees and asylum seekers in its care. Again, that report identified insufficient resources as one aspect of the failures.

The sixth and final issue I want to highlight at the outset is child poverty. Child poverty is a child protection issue. It is endemic in Ireland. The most recent Survey of Income and Living Conditions revealed that child poverty is increasing. The number of children experiencing enforced deprivation rose to 236,000 last year from 202,000, and there was a sharp increase in the number of children living in consistent poverty, up by more than 40% in just one year to more than 89,000 children.

Last week was End Child Poverty Week. Marking the week, the Children’s Rights Alliance called for budget 2024 to be a children’s budget, designed to break the cycle of poverty affecting children, young people and families across the country. It specifically called for a 10% increase to Tusla funding in the budget. Its chief executive, Ms Tanya Ward, said: "Our services are at breaking point. We are witnessing a massive demand surge in child protection, welfare and family support services ... [and there is] unmet need."

In conclusion, it seems to me that those six issues identify just how far Ireland has to go to achieve an Taoiseach’s ambition to make Ireland the greatest place in Europe to be a child. While I welcome the changes that have taken place and the fact that there is a clear commitment within Government to address child protection issues, it seems to me that the gap between that laudable principle and the reality in practice is a large and troubling one. I respectfully request that the committee considers carefully that vital question of resources. Funding and staffing shortfalls are at the heart of all six issues I have summarised. Tusla’s 2022 annual report documented an increase both in the number of referrals for the child protection and welfare services, which is a 13% rise since the year before, and the complex needs of individuals and families referred to services, which were points made by the Minister in outline in the first session. I recognise that Tusla has been facing a combination of challenging issues, but there has not been a proportionate increase to Tusla’s funding or resource allocation during the time of this increased referral to meet the increased demand. That is at the heart of the Children’s Rights Alliance call for a children’s budget in 2024, and in my view it has much to commend it.

Finally, I note also that allocation of resources was an issue of concern to the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child in its concluding observations at the start of the year. It expressly recommended that Ireland “incorporate a child rights-based approach into the State budgeting process”, and I agree. Incorporation of the committee includes duties on child rights-based budgeting. Article 4 incorporates a duty on states to use their “maximum available resources” to realise child rights. Ireland is one of the most prosperous countries in Europe. Last year, Ireland’s economy was the fastest growing in Europe. Speaking frankly, we owe it to the children of Ireland, particularly very vulnerable groups and those groups affected by the intersectionality, which was referred to earlier. We are duty-bound under Article 4 of the UNCRC, and we owe it to those children to commit greater funding and resources to rapidly and urgently improve our struggling child protection systems and services.

I thank Ms Gallagher very much. That was an excellent opening statement with many very good points that probably most of us would agree with. I will open it up now to our members for questions. I call Senator Ruane.

I thank Ms Gallagher for the contribution. I think of the six areas of concern highlighted by the UN committee and how so many of those, when we think of the earlier conversation regarding children in care, are about how we place them within families that are vulnerable and then place those families within communities that are struggling. We must look at the systemic failure relating to some of those areas that are mentioned, whether that be mental health or the standard of living. On one hand, we have to recognise that the State has a role. Obviously, some children end up in care and sometimes it has nothing to do with the standard of living or mental health. Sometimes it can be with regard to plain neglect or sexual abuse and so on. Taking those cases aside and looking at many of the other cases in terms of struggling communities and families, a high proportion of some families who end up coming into contact with Tusla are from specific communities.

I read the contributions and Ms Gallagher's opening statement, and one sentence refers to the failure of the State to provide an adequate standard of living so that families have a way to flourish. If we look at adequate access to services, mental health supports and housing, they are all prevention measures relating to kids ending up in care. Then, because of that failure in many senses, many kids and families end up coming into contact with Tusla and then being failed a second time.

We say the care system, or Tusla, is going to get involved, and even though the State failed them the first time, now we are going to say the State is best placed to care for them in the context in which we failed them in the first place. I really struggle to get my head around it, and I think then of the State not being able to be a better “parent”, because that is what it becomes, than the situation the child faced in the first place. A lot of people I worked with over the years who have been in care speak about the fact that the impact of being in the care system felt more traumatic to them than the actual family situation, which was nonetheless somewhat traumatic as well.

It is about that realisation gap. How do we begin to challenge that? What step needs to be taken? Is it about having a greater focus on the child poverty issue Ms Gallagher mentioned or is it about having some sort of understanding of why kids end up in care, with targeted supports for those communities if there is a thread running through why certain people end up in care? I am thinking also of the use of restraint and seclusion on children in care, and I assume medical restraint is included in that along with physical restraint. I wonder, from a legal perspective and also considering the point made by Judge Simms, how we can rationalise that when the case of that child that was mentioned is in the care of the State and when restraint or seclusion is the answer. Are there human rights abuses? If those children or families were in a better position, could this be legally challenged whereby, if we are to see the State as the "parent", the State could be challenged for being a bad "parent"? If a child is failed within the home and then failed within the State, there is no third option. How do we begin to challenge that properly?

On the point about information gaps in the context of child sex trafficking, is our system comparable with any other EU state? Have we not built the structures within which to gather that information based on anywhere else, or have we just created it in the dark without taking on systems from elsewhere? Is there a good comparison for what would be a good system to ensure we are not under-identifying children who have been trafficked?

I have further questions I would like to ask but I will give the rest of my time to Ms Gallagher for answers. She said she had a lot of views and thoughts on the previous session. Rather than just hope they will come up, I invite her to point to them during the session where they are relevant.

Ms Caoilfhionn Gallagher

I thank the Senator. She may have noticed how much I was nodding during many of the points she was making. From the outset when she was describing that systemic situation, the combination of the issues we are looking at, regarding difficulties with the child welfare and child protection system, the issues Judge Simms raised and the cross-agency and interagency concerns, combined with the cost-of-living crisis, the housing crisis and so on, means we are in a perfect storm that leads to very real risks for some of the most vulnerable children.

The Senator referred to children having traumatic care experiences. One of the most heartbreaking aspects of Judge Simms’s letter relates to the individual examples he gives, of which I might give just one that highlights precisely the point the Senator was making. He refers to a six-year-old girl who was placed in what the Child and Family Agency described to the court as unsuitable, unapproved, special emergency residential placement following the breakdown of four foster placements. This was a child who had come into State care, had the State as a corporate parent and then ended up in a position aged six where she went through four separate foster placements that broke down and then, before Judge Simms, there was a description of her being in an unsuitable, unapproved, special emergency residential placement. For a child of that age, that is heartbreaking. That is why I thought it was so important in the first session, when reference was made to how we talk about statistics, to highlight that behind each of them is an individual child who, in many cases, has been failed by the State, as that six-year-old was.

On restraint and seclusion, I may be able to give the committee some additional material of relevance. I should say I have acted for the International Coalition Against Restraint and Seclusion, ICARS, which comprises a large number of families in Northern Ireland, Scotland, England and Wales who have children with disabilities who have been restrained, and seriously injured in many cases, in certain residential settings and special school settings. Quite a lot of learning from those cases is very relevant to the question the Senator raised, and perhaps I can share some of that material with her. In short, there is very much a human rights issue regarding restraint and seclusion under the UNCRC and under domestic law. One of the issues, of course, is that if we end up with staff who are less experienced or a shortage of staff, it is more likely staff will then turn to using methods such as restraint that are intended to be an ultimate last resort and that can have profound physical and mental consequences for children.

On the information gaps in respect of trafficking, one key issue that emerged in IHREC's report last week is that there is a real problem with there being no data whatsoever relating to the source of referrals to the national referral mechanism. The understanding is that the majority of referrals are made through the criminal justice system. One of the key points being made by stakeholders, including healthcare professionals, relates to whether healthcare professionals or school professionals, for example, are making referrals. If we do not know the information and are blind to it, we cannot see where the gaps are, so the information gaps lead to us being essentially child blind. We will not understand what is happening in the system and then we will not be able to take steps to address it.

Turning to the Senator's point about resourcing, one issue of great concern to me relates to false economies that may end up causing much more serious problems financially for the State as well as in other ways. A good example of that is kinship care. A large number of children and young people are in informal kinship care, and the organisation Kinship Care Ireland has been rightly highlighting the fact that many children are being diverted to informal arrangements. The situation is, as the organisation has made clear in many of its submissions to the Government, that these are children at the edge of care, often being looked after by, for example, older grandparents, who are often invisible to the system and are saving the State millions of euro because if they had not stepped in, these children would be in State care. Not providing proper support in the kinship care space is very short-sighted because it may lead to further risks.

I wanted to come back to the issue of foster carers, because some points on that occurred to me during the first session. Foster carers are the backbone of State care in Ireland. Approximately 90% of placements are in foster care. As some of the committee's members have been pointing out for a number of years, including Deputy Costello, foster care services have been at breaking point for several years. This is not a new issue. In October 2022, a report by Tusla made clear the agency had lost more foster carers than it had been able to hire in the previous five years, and one of the key reasons for that relates to money. That is why a number of weeks ago, at the start of September, we saw a powerful protest outside Leinster House by demonstrating foster families, who said there was an urgent need to raise the allowance amid inflation. This is the position. The foster care allowance has not risen since 2009, which is why those families, who are deeply committed to foster care and who are also seeing the importance of other steps, were protesting to say there needed to be an increase in the foster care allowance. It has not risen for 14 years and it has not taken account of inflation. Moreover, there has been no revision to the rules on mileage expenses. As a result of all that, foster carers are subsidising State care. They are deeply committed people, but it is simply not an acceptable or sustainable position, which is partly why we got those stark figures in the October 2022 report from Tusla showing that more people are leaving the foster care system than are coming in.

This is an urgent matter that has been raised for a long time by Empowering People in Care, foster carers' organisations and others, and it is high time that was addressed. That is a very practical issue.

The other issue is that if we do not address that, it has other knock-on financial effects because it results in more placements out of area with private foster carers. This leads to far more disruption for the child, who is likely to be removed from his or her support network and friendship network. It also has financial ramifications for social services because it leads to more draws on social workers' time so there are fundamental issues there.

I am mindful of the time and there are other issues I might be able to raise later but with regard to the social worker recruitment crisis, I draw the committee's attention to a very powerful letter to The Irish Times from Vivian Guerin of the National Association of Social Workers in January 2023 in which she said the social work recruitment crisis requires urgent action. I can provide this afterwards if it is helpful. In her letter, she said the social worker recruitment crisis has a particular feature that distinguishes it from other labour shortages, namely, social work spans multiple different areas. It involves child protection and welfare, on which we are focusing today, along with old age, criminal justice, housing and mental health. Vivian Guerin said that as a result of that and in contrast to other professions, the relevant political and policy responsibility is under the auspices of a number of Ministers and Departments. In practical terms, no single Minister, Department or agency has overarching responsibility for strategic planning and management for social work services. She highlighted this issue. Going back to the information gap, she highlighted the fact that we do not even have reliable data on a series of issues about numbers of social workers employed in the country, who they are, where they are deployed and so on. She said that the upshot is that social work workforce planning at national level has been in free fall for some time and called for a non-siloed approach to this critical issue. This is a vitally important issue, she was right to raise it and I commend that letter to the committee.

For the official record, Vivian Guerin is a man.

Ms Caoilfhionn Gallagher

I am so sorry. That is right.

Ms Gallagher has covered a lot of issues I would have raised. I spoke about CAMHS at the first session. I can speak about my own area of Carlow-Kilkenny. There has been an astronomical rise in referral refusals across the regions and a staggering 54% of all referrals to CAMHS are refused in CHO5. What changes can be made here? Is Ms Gallagher hearing reports of what needs to be done? Does she have any solutions as someone who is very much aware of the issues at the moment? The most significant issue she spoke about is the fact that we have the worst CAMHS IT system in the world, which is unacceptable. Funding is funding but if we do not have a proper IT system for our young people attending CAMHS or families, the system is failing.

Far more families are coming to St. Clare's Hospitality Kitchen, which is a soup kitchen. They seem to be coming across the country and soup kitchens are being used more and more. Children are coming to kitchens with their families to be fed. This is of huge concern to me. Again, we need to look at action on child poverty. What do we do? All children going into primary school have free schoolbooks this year. This should be extended to secondary school.

I have one concern, which I raised previously. We have seen the largest changes in the school system regarding DEIS schools. I am sure Ms Gallagher is aware of this. Children in DEIS schools get breakfast or dinner but children in DEIS 2 schools get different meals compared to children in DEIS 1 schools. Is this another issue that needs to be looked at? Does Ms Gallagher feel the urgency from the Government regarding action on any of the recommendations from the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child?

Ms Caoilfhionn Gallagher

I apologise for misgendering Vivian Guerin. I thank Senator Ruane for highlighting that.

I said it more for the transcribers.

Ms Caoilfhionn Gallagher

I am very grateful. I thank the Deputy for raising those questions. Regarding CAMHS, the position is that every child has the right to the highest attainable standard of health, including mental health. It is quite clear from Dr. Susan Finnerty's report that this is not the case. I also commend to the committee, many of whom will have seen it, a document published by the Ombudsman for Children in May entitled "A Piece of My Mind", a mental health survey of more than 2,000 children. The results show that 42% of those children who had accessed CAMHS said the service they received did not help with their mental health. This was a shocking figure. Almost half of the children who had used CAMHS said that it simply did not help, which is a very concerning figure that Dr. Muldoon was quite right to draw attention to.

Regarding what needs to be done in CAMHS, I am conscious that I have an oversight role. Child protection is a very broad topic. The matters identified by Dr. Finnerty in her final report are the matters on which we should focus. She has identified a range of very serious issues and set out a detailed range of recommendations. It seems to me to be critical that we turn to them. I very much agree with the Deputy regarding her concern about the IT system. That is the fundamental mismatch. How can one of the richest countries in Europe have a situation where Dr. Finnerty can use language like that - "amongst the worst in the world for IT infrastructure in youth mental health services"? This is shameful and is something we must address as a matter of urgency.

I may come back to the Deputy regarding the issue she raised about DEIS rather than giving her an answer now. She raised an important point and I would like to consider it further and revert to her in writing.

The UN Committee on the Rights of the Child has a very long list of recommendations. I am not sure how many members of the committee have had the opportunity to look through the list that has been set out. For me in my role, that is a yardstick by which we can measure the Government's commitment to child protection, particularly in those six areas where the UN committee has said these are urgently required. There is a range of other issues that the committee has not said are urgently required but they are still on the list but those six topics are of such critical importance. This is why in my first annual report, I will measure where we are compared to that yardstick. During my three years in post from February 2023, I intend to return to this yardstick again and again. I hope the committee will return to it again and again because it is the international standard that Ireland is supposed to meet. It was clear in February 2023 that we were found wanting and it seems to me that each and every item on that list of urgent measures identified by the UN committee must be adopted. I am afraid that many of them require more resources to be allocated, which is why I highlighted the issue of resources in my opening statement.

I thank Ms Gallagher for appearing before us and for the work she will no doubt do. I will start by outing my lack of knowledge of the exact parameters of her role. The State is failing when it comes to human trafficking in general.

There is a specific subset there within child trafficking, which I will come to in a second, but we are failing completely in terms of human trafficking in this country. The trafficking in persons, TIP, report, and all that says about us, is very clear. Ms Gallagher mentioned the gaps in the structures and the overreliance on the security and police structures. In 2015, in the case of P v. Chief Superintendent Garda National Immigration Bureau & Ors., Ms Justice O'Malley essentially tore apart the system as denying the basic rights of victims. Nothing has changed since then. We now have a proposal for the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences and Human Trafficking) Bill 2023. The justice committee has published its pre-legislative report. We have specifically pointed to the lack of a specific identification process for child victims. One of my questions concerns the special rapporteur's role and ability to engage with the justice committee or the Minister for Justice on this important legislation. It is only on First Stage. It has not even gone anywhere. We have completed pre-legislative scrutiny and that is about it. We must seek to ensure that the special rapporteur's expertise and focus on child rights can be brought to bear on that Bill.

On the CAMHS issue, one of my frustrations was touched on briefly by Deputy Murnane O'Connor. One of the things that I found frustrating as a social worker, which was not fully explored as it should have been in the Finnerty report, was the refusal to accept referrals. We talk about about how poor CAMHS is in terms of its IT system and how it is not helping patients with their mental health who are referred into it, but behind them is a whole cohort who are just simply refused access. They are told that the issue is behavioural or it is not for CAMHS and is for community services that do not exist. There is a whole cohort of young people who, through gatekeeping, are kept out of CAMHS, and who I feel are quite invisible when we discuss the failings of CAMHS and need to be considered. Again, in terms of the information gap, I do not believe they are really being measured.

In her opening statement, Ms Gallagher mentioned outstanding matters to be resolved relating to the Child Care (Amendment) Act 2022. I ask her to give us a brief précis of those outstanding measures and, if there is time, to address the issue of unaccompanied minors and separated children, the unique challenges facing Ireland in relation to them and how best Ireland can respond to those challenges.

Ms Caoilfhionn Gallagher

I will run through the various topics. On the first one, in respect of my role, my predecessor, Professor Conor O'Mahony, followed Judge Geoffrey Shannon as he now is. He highlighted in his annual report, published in December of last year, the importance of this role. It is a credit to Ireland that in 2006 this role of Special Rapporteur on Child Protection was established. I think that was a positive and progressive move, but the Deputy is quite right to raise the question about the remit. Every single day I get queries about individual cases which are really questions for the Ombudsman for Children rather than for the rapporteur. The idea with the special rapporteur role is to have a very particular, distinctly legal, perspective looking at how, overall, Ireland is meeting its legal obligations in respect of child protection. It is also focused on child protection rather than child rights more generally, in the way that the Ombudsman is. That allows me to do a more detailed in-depth review, from a legal perspective in particular, on the way in which we are meeting our obligations internationally in relation to child protection. I do have an obligation to report annually and my report ultimately means that I am then responsible and answerable to the Oireachtas. Ordinarily, the annual reports are published to cover the first year of your work and then they are published about six months after that. Professor Conor O'Mahony stopped his role at the end of June 2022. From July 2022 until 1 February 2023, there was no one in role. That was a very important seven months. It was, of course, when the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child published its concluding observations and heard from stakeholders in Geneva on child rights issues. A series of things also happened over that time, including, for example, An Taoiseach announcing the new child poverty unit. An Coimisiún na Meán and a whole range of other topics came up during that period. I have taken the view, and I hope the committee will support me in this, that waiting and doing my first annual report in summer 2024 would be too slow and not responsible. My view is that my first report should be done faster and it should be essentially a stocktaking exercise. It should include that period when no one was in post, it should look at how Ireland is currently doing against that yardstick set by the UN committee and make clear what I expect, as special rapporteur, of the Government. In a year's time we can come back and see how they are doing against that yardstick. Those are my thoughts on that.

With regard to human trafficking and child trafficking, one of the best sources of information is the US State Department report. Ireland has been languishing rather low in the league table of how states do in respect of human trafficking for some years in the US State Department's analysis. While it has improved, it remains at tier 2 in the 2023 TIP report. Ireland has a long way to go to meet international standards in respect of human trafficking. While it is estimated that there is an under-reporting and an under-identification of victims of trafficking and it is likely that the true number of trafficking victims is, at a minimum, 38% higher than the official statistics suggest and maybe even higher than that, my particular concern from a child protection aspect is that it is quite clear, in regard to child trafficking, that we have a disproportionate problem and that we are seeing even less of it. I have spoken to some individual professionals who, when they saw those figures, said that they are individually aware of more cases than that. One of the issues is that the particular focus on trafficking appears to be, although we do not have the precise data to see if it is correct, solely looking at factors concerning trafficking into Ireland from abroad. One of the key issues relates to trafficking within Ireland and a range of other types of trafficking, not just sexual exploitation. That also includes, for example, criminal exploitation, the use of children in gangs and a range of other types of trafficking, including domestic servitude of children. It seems to me that the figures suggest that we are child-blind and are not seeing the full picture. The information we have also suggests that we have a skewed focus and we are not looking at the entirety of the picture. That is something that I hope I can contribute to.

The Deputy is quite right to raise the fact that there have been a number of positive developments. Of course, I welcome the publication of the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences and Human Trafficking) Bill 2023 and the fact that there is some progress and movement, but there are still very significant gaps in the protection and care of victims. I hope that in my role I can feed into that.

I am looking at the list of other topics that the Deputy raised. I apologise that I may have left something out. Is there something else the Deputy needed me to address?

Outstanding matters to be resolved relating to the Child Care (Amendment) Act 2022.

Ms Caoilfhionn Gallagher

I refer the Deputy to the fact that in May 2023 I put in a detailed submission on a number of matters. I can provide it to committee members subsequently, if that is helpful, and talk it through in some more detail. I put in quite a detailed submission and, of course, I have subsequently seen the report. The proof of the pudding will be in the eating and where we finally land. I raised some general and some specific observations in my submission, but one of the main concerns that I raised was that when we look at the requirements of the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child and, in particular, the best interests obligation under Article 3 of the UN CRC, it emphasises that the best interests of the child is a threefold concept. The right of a child to have his or her best interests assessed and taken as a primary consideration is a substantive right. It is also an important legal principle and, critically, it is a fundamental rule of procedure. Whenever a decision is to be made that will affect either one individual child, an identified group of children or children in general, the decision-making process must include an evaluation of the possible impact, positive or negative, of that decision on children.

That is why I raised particular concerns about the absence of a requirement in regard to record-keeping by a person exercising a function under the Act. Of course, an obligation is proposed to have regard to the guiding principles but, in my view, there should be an express requirement to record the reasoning of the decision-maker. That is an express requirement of Article 3.1 and is important in terms of understanding at a later stage. Where decision-making has gone wrong or where there has been a gap, it can be very important in terms of accountability for an individual child who has been failed. That is one of the key issues that I would highlight.
Members will see from my submission that there were a number of other matters. I am quite happy to discuss that in more detail when we are under less time pressure, if that would be helpful.

Thank you, and we have the submission that we received from Ms Gallagher in May. I call Senator Clonan.

I thank Ms Gallagher for her detailed evidence. I will try to be brief because she has covered so much ground. I first thank her for all the extraordinary human rights work she does in the UK and elsewhere. I had the pleasure of hearing her speak at a graduation ceremony at UCD a couple of years ago. My eldest guy, who has gone well past the tooth fairy, graduated in law at UCD. I will be telling my fellow Senators about Senator Malcolm Byrne's trailblazing campaigning but he is not here today so I will do that when he is present.

With regard to areas of concern, one of the phrases used was “worst in the world” with regard to information technology and so on. Ms Gallagher herself talked about Ireland being “child blind” when it comes to issues like trafficking and so on. Historically, Ireland had a very poor track record in its treatment of women and children and it continues to this day. Ms Gallagher mentioned CAMHS and people will be aware of the Kerry CAMHS - I do not want to use the word “scandal” because it is far more profound than that. Children were subjected to a regime of prescription that was completely inappropriate, with medics who did not have higher specialist training inappropriately employed in that context. That is a very highly regulated area where there are huge levels of governance, oversight and audit yet in that environment, young adults and children were harmed in that way and it happened over a prolonged period of time. What chance do children and young adults in the periphery have, those who are in less well regulated environments?

I was at a committee meeting earlier where we talked about children who are on waiting lists for treatment for scoliosis. They are allowed to deteriorate to the point where the scoliotic curve becomes so extreme that really radical, complex surgery is required and it leads to life-limiting and life-altering outcomes for children. Again, that is happening to Irish children in a highly regulated, highly overseen area with lots of governance, oversight procedures and audit, and it has even led to the death of one child.

My own son is one of the children who was impacted in that way, and he had to wait until 2018 to have his surgery when he was 17 years old, whereas he should have had it when he was 12. The curve was so pronounced that his head was almost touching his elbow. If you did that to a cat or a dog in Ireland, the animal would be taken from you and you would probably face some sanction, but in our most highly organised, safe spaces where people go for help, they experience harm.

Ms Gallagher has dealt with many of the technical areas. I went to college in the 1980s and in my first career, I worked as a primary school teacher in a disadvantaged area of Dublin. As it was a disadvantaged area, there was inequality, but we did not have children living in family hubs, temporary accommodation or emergency accommodation and we did not have them falling asleep in class. I congratulate Ms Gallagher on her appointment to her professorial role in UCD. She has been away from the Republic for a period of time. On return, does she think we have actually deteriorated? As a society, are we going backwards? Is there greater inequality? I suspect there is, and that is my lived experience.

On a second question, Ms Gallagher has been in the UK for a considerable period of time. With regard to our attitude towards women and children, our failings and our “child blind” orientation, does Ms Gallagher think there is something cultural there? Are we outliers in Europe? Are we different from our cousins across the water or in other European Union jurisdictions? This goes back to that phrase “worst in the world”. I think Ireland is the worst country in the European Union to have a disability, to have a mental health issue or to be vulnerable in any way, for example, to be elderly on a trolley, and I wonder why that is. We characterise ourselves as being a warm people, we are all about family, we compare ourselves to the Italians and all this kind of stuff, but we are kind of brutal and we seem to have become a very cold house for people who have any kind of vulnerability. No pressure, but I would be curious to know if Ms Gallagher has a view on that or does it align with her experience.

Ms Caoilfhionn Gallagher

There were quite a few issues there so let me address them as best I can, and I look forward to continuing the conversation with the Senator, I suspect, over the coming months and years while I am in the role. The first thing is to offer huge congratulations to Senator Clonan’s son on his graduation from UCD and the constructors’ championship to Senator Clonan himself. Congratulations on that. I am also extremely sorry at a personal level to hear about what his son has experienced.

When we look at the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child analysis on children with disabilities, there is a very wide-ranging list of issues which are identified by the committee. Paragraph 29 of its concluding observations relates to looking at the statutory framework, the policy framework and a whole range of topics, including, ultimately, ensuring that the right of children with disabilities to be heard on all decisions that affect them needs to be respected. Therefore, there is quite a wide-ranging outline of what Ireland needs to do to change in respect of children with disabilities, which chimes with some of the experiences that Senator Clonan is referring to.

With regard to women and, in particular, girls, I highlight that in the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child’s concluding observations, paragraphs 23 and 24 deal with violence against children, which was one of the urgent items that I identified earlier. In particular, it highlighted a very high prevalence of violence against children, including sexual exploitation, online violence and bullying, coupled with low rates of reporting, prosecution and conviction in cases of violence against children. To quote from the committee, it referred to “severe delays and inconsistencies in related investigations”. It highlighted in that section that there were particular issues based on gender and in respect of girls, but also a particular issue with a number of other groups, such as children in socioeconomically disadvantaged situations, children with disabilities, asylum-seeking children, children of minority groups and children in alternative care. Therefore, there is a real intersectionality and those concerns that were raised in paragraphs 23 and 24 about violence against children and what we are doing about it in Ireland are heightened when we look at certain particularly vulnerable groups. For example, when we look at a child of colour living in a disadvantaged area or in residential care, there are very severe issues.

The phrase “the worst in the world”, to be clear, was Dr. Susan Finnerty speaking specifically about the IT system in regard to CAMHS. I want to ensure that I am not seen as making a more wide-ranging criticism in any way, which I am not.

At present I am in the foothills of my role. I am in the early few months. If the Senator will forgive me, I will not take a view on where Ireland ranks in the league table on the whole range of issues across Europe at the moment. That is something I would like to give further thought to as I continue in my work. There are a number of stakeholders that I have met once in the last number of months and who I will be meeting more in the coming months. There are some stakeholders I have not met yet but who I will be meeting by the end of the year. If the Senator does not mind I will keep my powder dry on that question because I would like to consider it further.

That nearly concludes our session but I just wanted to raise one or two points myself. First, I am delighted to hear Ms Gallagher mention kinship care because that is something that often gets overlooked. For everyone's information, a group of kinship carers are coming in to do a presentation in the audiovisual room next Wednesday. I find a lot of people do not actually understand or know what kinship care is so I think it is good for that to be highlighted, as well as the foster care issues that Ms Gallagher raised because there are a lot of very important issues for them as well at the moment.

I just wanted to briefly ask about this because I did not get the opportunity to ask Tusla in the previous session. I often think when we look at these kinds of situations that we are not looking enough at the area of family support, at prevention and families or kids who might be at risk of coming into care. I know we are talking about a lower level of risk here. I am not talking about the very severe cases where obviously children have to come into care. There are a lot of cases that I would have seen maybe ten or 15 years ago where they would have really benefited from a small amount of family support. That would have prevented children going into care and it actually helps the whole family structure. Sometimes it can get to a point where people or parents are overwhelmed. They feel they are not coping and that little bit of extra support and help changes the whole dynamic in the house. What are Ms Gallagher's views on that? We do not really talk enough about putting more resources into family support and trying to prevent children coming into care in the first instance.

Ms Caoilfhionn Gallagher

I thank the Cathaoirleach for highlighting the event in relation to kinship care. It is such a critical issue. It is often the Cinderella of the care system. It is overlooked and the role those people perform is so critical. As I said, they save the State millions and it is so shortsighted if we do not provide support in that respect because then we will have more children entering the formal care system unnecessarily. It is critical as a matter of principle because it is the right thing to do but it is also pragmatic. That is hugely important.

On the family support point, I very much agree with the issue the Cathaoirleach raised. That old phrase "prevention is better than cure" is absolutely right in this context. It is particularly so when dealing with that perfect storm that Senator Ruane referred to earlier with the cost-of-living crisis, the housing crisis and so on. People are facing unprecedented pressures in many respects and with those pressures comes a situation where people are at the edge of care. If we provide better support earlier, it is not only the right thing to do for children and for their families but an imperative in the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child is to take appropriate steps, using the maximum available resources, to ensure children remain living with their families where possible. I feel that is a topic that is sometimes overlooked. You end up doing firefighting after something has gone wrong rather than diverting resources into the preventative aspect. That is a hugely important issue the Cathaoirleach has raised.

I would just flag one other matter relating to recruitment and retention of social workers, given the discussion that arose earlier in respect of that. I am very conscious that reference was made to a recent survey that was done internally. I would commend to the committee a very detailed review that was undertaken by Social Care Ireland, Dr. Martin Power and Ms Charlotte Burke and published in 2021. The reason I raise this is that it comes back to some of the earlier issues that were raised. That review included a survey from 2019, just before the pandemic, and an analysis that was conducted subsequently in 2021 about the social care and social worker retention and recruitment crisis. In that document the authors highlight a number of important matters which I feel would be remiss not to flag and get on the record before we finish this evening. The first is of course that you are dealing with an overwhelmingly female workforce. They highlight quite rightly in their analysis that some more general issues related to workforce difficulty also relate to social workers. They said:

Affordable childcare for example, remains a particular challenge in Ireland, especially where there are irregular work patterns and unsociable hours ... Given that both are features of social care work and that the social care workforce is overwhelmingly female, such influences cannot but impact recruitment and retention.

They also highlighted the fact that upwardly-spiralling rents, house prices and cost-of-living increases cause particular problems, particularly when dealing with urban areas.

They also had interesting results in their survey. At the top of the list, from social workers giving their own responses to what the problems were with recruitment and retention, were pay and conditions. Pay and conditions were by far the greatest challenge respondent social workers perceived in relation to recruitment and retention. That accounted for almost one third, or 30.9%, of all responses. Second on the list was respect and recognition at 16.3%. They are critical issues. The review authors also identified a particular problem with predatory recruitment practices whereby social workers are initially recruited and then offered a job at a lower level. That was a very particular problem they identified. That is a report that is well worth looking at.

It is worth saying that, rather like the foster care issue, which was not new issue, this is now being treated as if it is a crisis and we have to firefight it. This has been an issue that many stakeholders have been raising repeatedly since 2009. Indeed, the predecessor to this committee also raised it a number of years ago. We have the same pattern with social workers. It is not a new issue. Between 2015 and 2019, Tusla saw a 30% increase in referrals and only a 1% increase in the social care workforce and increased reliance on agency workers. Social Care Ireland, Dr. Kenneth Burns from UCC and many others, including the former Joint Committee on Children and Youth Affairs, have been looking at this issue for a long period of time. It is essential that we grasp the nettle now and deal with this issue before it becomes a greater problem. That is why I think the issue highlighted by Mr. Vivian Guerin in the letter from January is so important. Those issues are central and need to be addressed.

I thank Ms Gallagher. This is her first time appearing before us and we very much look forward to engaging further. As it is her first time, are there any closing remarks or comments she wanted to make to us as members?

Ms Caoilfhionn Gallagher

For now, I will resist the temptation to do that. I will reflect on that and I hope I will be seeing committee members again in the coming months.

That is fantastic. It is been a really good session. I think we would all agree that we could have gone on for hours. I thank Ms Gallagher for joining us and we very much look forward to engaging with her further. I propose that we publish her opening statement on the Oireachtas website. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The joint committee adjourned at 8.59 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 3 October 2023.
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