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JOINT COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS, MARINE AND NATURAL RESOURCES debate -
Tuesday, 30 Nov 2004

Global Oil Production: Presentation.

I welcome Dr. Colin Campbell and Mr. Chris Skrebowski. We are fortunate that you are here today through the good offices of Deputy Eamon Ryan. You are both experts in global oil production and we understand the presentation you will give to the committee is similar to that which you gave to the House of Commons earlier this year.

I draw your attention to the fact that members of this committee have absolute privilege, but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before it. The committee cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. Under the salient rulings of the Chair, members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Dr. Colin Campbell

Thank you for inviting us to come here. This presentation is somewhat complicated but we have to cover the ground. As to my background, I did geology at Oxford years ago and I did my Ph.D in Connemara. That started a kind of love affair with Ireland. I had a long link with Ireland. Then I joined the oil business in 1958 as an exploration geologist in South America, in Borneo, New Guinea, all over the place. I eventually rose to be executive vice-president of an oil company in Norway. I have seen the full spectrum of this business. I was much involved in the ‘oil boom' that never really took off in Ireland in the 1970s. I was much involved with that chapter of exploration here. That is to give a picture of what geology used to be in the distant past, when we used to ride a mule in the Colombian Andes, with technology no more advanced than a hammer.

I would like to talk about the geological background. I stress that you have to find oil before you can produce it and finding it is absolutely geological business. This is the heart of the whole issue. I feel obliged to stress the geological side of this which is often overlooked.

The second point is depletion. Depletion in itself is an obvious and simple concept. We are born, we pass middle age, we die. If you drink a glass, it starts full and it ends empty. If you drink it quickly, you empty it quickly. There is nothing peculiar, exceptional or extreme about the concept of depletion, so why can we not apply the same general understanding to oil? Why is this oil question so obscured and so misled with denial, confusion, double-talk and everything else? There is no space science about this, it is simply common sense. If we delve into this, we will agree that this is some kind of devastating realisation. The world that we know is changing.

Finally, I will say something about what this might mean for Ireland. I do not know what the oil price was yesterday, but it reached $53 in New York a few weeks ago. The members can see from the graph I have that it has shot through the ceiling. This is some of kind of event, but the oil price may collapse again if there is recession and demand falls. Something exceptional is happening during these days.

I want to give the committee a brief outline of petroleum geology just to set the scene and to emphasise that this is a geological issue. Let us consider how the stuff was formed in the first place. When I was on the mule in Colombia years ago, we did not understand all of this. A geo-chemical revolution has since happened, so we really understand the conditions under which this stuff was formed. The great bulk of the world's oil was formed in just two short moments of extreme global warming, 90 and 150 million years ago. During these times, the warm sunlit waters of algae proliferated. The organic remains of this algae fell to the stagnant rifts that were forming as the continents moved apart. The graphs give an idea of the unique combination of circumstances that had to come into play. Then the rains came. Sediment was washed in from the surrounding lands and the mountains. It filled up the rifts and it buried this organic stuff to a certain temperature, whereupon it was cooked enough to turn into oil.

We have now explored the world for 150 years and we now know where the areas of prolific oil generation occurred. The map displayed shows the North Sea with a green area. This was one of those unique prolific rifts as the Atlantic began to open. There were also other, less satisfactory areas, which are represented by different colours. The blue area is off the south coast of Ireland. The message is that there are a few super-prolific places under very exceptional conditions and they are all known. There may be a few little minor things that could still come in from here and there, but they are not significant in a world context. Poor Ireland just did not sit in the right place during the late Jurassic age. That is nobody's fault, but that is how it was.

Once the oil is formed there are three different possibilities. First, it can just rise up and dissipate as it is formed under enormous pressure. Second, it can rise up and encounter a porous formation such as a compacted beach sand or sandstone. If this flows to the surface, it just escapes. The great tar deposits of Canada and Venezuela are such examples. Finally and much more rarely, if this carrier bed is folded, the oil collects at the top of the fold as oil floats on water.

The current graph shows a picture of an off-shore field with the land, the sea and two wells. The left-hand well has penetrated the thickest part of the reservoir and I depict it in four different arrows. It is easy to understand that, as the water rises as oil is taken out, the locations of these arrows turn to water one by one. This explains why the production declines. It is not just a case of emptying a glass directly; it declines gradually. This decline pattern is imposed by nature.

From that geological background, we can say that oil was formed in the geological past. That means that there is a fixed amount of oil in the planet and one cannot grow it like potatoes. It is there and there is only so much of it. Are we running out? We started to run out when we produced the first barrel, but I suggest that running out is not the issue as it will not happen until far into the future. The important point is when we face the inflection between rising production, as we have known for the last 150 years, and the onset of decline. This is the fundamental discontinuity between an epoch of growth and an epoch of decline. It will eventually run out, but that is not what matters. People will always state that we are running out of oil, but that is not really the issue. What matters is the inflection from rising production to declining production.

Why do we need to know about this? Oil and gas now dominate our lives as 40% of our trade in energy is oil. More than 90% of transport fuel is oil based. Trade depends on transport and much electricity comes from gas. Oil is critical for agriculture. It fuels the tractor, it provides the synthetic nutrients and pesticides without which these modern crops barely function. Some countries need pumps to pump irrigation water, although Ireland is happily not one of these. Over this 150 year period, the production of food has risen greatly, partly thanks to oil, which has allowed the world population to grow enormously. We can agree that this is a very important subject. This is not anything trivial or casual as the whole future of mankind is linked to this issue.

If it is that important, then why were we not told about it? There is no particular technical problem in determining the size of an oil field. There is a certain range of uncertainty, but engineers are capable and can do it. We have to enter the political side of how people report what they found. If one is trying to borrow money from the bank manager, one exaggerates one's assets. If one goes to the tax man, one tries to understate them. There is a certain political or psychological element in reporting. The oil companies reported financial reserves and the stock exchange rules seriously frowned on anyone exaggerating. One went to jail for fraud for saying one had more than one actually had. However, there was no problem about under-reporting what was found. This meant that the oil companies reported the minimum they needed to deliver a satisfactory financial result. That meant that the reserves were progressively revised upwards over time, which gave a very comforting and useful commercial message of steady growth. This suited their image, suited the stock market and suited everyone, but it was intensely misleading because it really reflected under-reporting at the start. Such days are over and we are well aware of the Shell problem, where the company had to downgrade its reserves. That told us that Shell had nothing left in its hip pocket. On the other side, the OPEC countries started to exaggerate what they had because they were competing between each other for a quota which was based on what they reported. The public numbers are therefore extremely unreliable. If the numbers were better and were reliable, then what we are talking about would be entirely self-evident.

I would like to illustrate this OPEC question, which is quite amazing. The next graph is a data set which shows the reserves as reported by the main OPEC countries over the last 20 years. In 1980, Kuwait announced that it had 65 billion barrels of reserves, which dropped to 64 billion barrels by 1984. Suddenly in 1985, Kuwait added 50% overnight. Nothing had been found or had changed in the reservoir or in the oil fields — the change was simply in the reporting of the reserves. Their action prompted Venezuela two years later to double its reserves overnight, which in turn prompted other producers — Abu Dhabi, Dubai, Iran and Iraq — to announce enormous overnight increases. They were followed finally by Saudi Arabia, the biggest producer of all. It is interesting to consider the neutral zone which is owned jointly by Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. The zone has two owners which had no reason to exaggerate as no political game was involved. Therefore, its reserves did not increase.

To consider the figures, is it remotely possible that Abu Dhabi had 92.2 billion barrels of reserves for the last 20 years despite substantial production? Yet, this is the public database that appears in many places without comment or qualification, despite the fact that anybody considering it will know it is unreliable. While I am not 100% sure, I am reaching the conclusion that instead of reporting the remaining reserves, Kuwait reported the total it had found, ignoring production, which would explain why the figures have barely changed since. In addition, it made sense from the perspective of OPEC negotiations to have a relatively fixed number so that its members were not forever re-negotiating.

I hope this gives an idea that the figures are grossly unreliable in regard to the world's most important oil producing area. If we are to adjust the figures in some reasonable way, we must take away the significant amount of some 300 billion barrels that is mixed up in this reporting phenomenon.

The slide shows a major surge in the late 1980s in the reporting behaviour in regard to the Middle East. If this is the only information which one has available, which is the case for many, one could be forgiven for seeing an ever-upward progression and it would be reasonable to extrapolate that more and more oil is being found and that there are no problems on the horizon. However, if one were to take the correct figures and include the revisions to the original discovery, which one must do, one would get a very different picture showing the decline of discovery over the years.

One must find oil before producing it. A further slide indicates the discovery of fields in the US-48. The peak of discovery in the US-48 was in 1930 and was followed 40 years later by the corresponding peak of production. Production must mirror discovery after a certain time-lag. Progress was slow in regard to the old US-48 and it took 40 years to move from one peak to the next. A further example is that of Egypt. Again, there is a classic discovery pattern that more or less follows a bell shaped curve on the graph, with the big fields coming in first. This is now reflected in production in Egypt, which is set to decline steeply. There were two cycles in the case of Indonesia, one offshore and one on land, and these are faithfully reflected in the production pattern. Russia shows a very normal discovery pattern, even under the Soviet regime, which was able to approach exploration in a scientific way, enabling it to find most of the big fields. The slide shows an anomalous fall for Russian production due to the problems associated with the end of the Soviet regime.

A final example is the case of the United Kingdom. Again, the discovery pattern is completely normal. Peak discovery comes in the early 1970s when all the giant North Sea fields came in, and a decline follows. There is an anomalous little saddle in the UK graph which was due to an accident in the offshore field that caused the British to shut down operations briefly and change the regime. However, UK production has now moved past its peak and is declining.

A further slide sums up the position. The information it contains comes from no less a source than ExxonMobil and is an instance of a major oil company at last telling, more or less, the true position and providing the correct figures and dates. It can be seen that discovery has been falling relentlessly since 1964 despite a world-wide search aimed always at the biggest and best prospects — no one is looking for the smallest and worst prospects — and despite the search having the benefits of enormous advances in technology and knowledge. Moreover, discovery has been falling despite a favourable economic regime whereby most of the cost of exploration is written off against tax. The oil companies are spending taxpayers' money to look for oil and if they still cannot find it, we must conclude it does not exist.

There is no good reason to expect this downward trend of 40 years' duration to change direction. The graph, therefore, extrapolates what is left to find. The data for production is superimposed on the graph and indicates that in 1981 the world began using more oil than it found and that the gap has been widening ever since. A serious crisis is developing for which the evidence is clear and which is now confirmed by a major oil company.

We can think of this in terms of three tanks: a yet to find tank of approximately 150 billion barrels, a tank of discovered oil of some 1,700 billion barrels, half of which has been produced, and a tank containing new discoveries. While we cannot ignore the possibility of a surprise, we know enough to say that the surprise will not be very big. New discoveries coming in amount to just under 4 billion barrels per year while oil is being produced at 22 billion barrels per year. In other words, six barrels are going out for every one coming in. This tells us we are draining the tanks, which is no great surprise. North America's reserves have been heavily depleted and the graph indicates the current position. Most oil remains in the Middle East, which is not a surprise.

In any attempt to analyse this information, it must be understood that the figures are not set in stone and interpretation and detective work are required to evaluate the different data. We have a picture of the regular oil, that is, the easy, cheap oil that has delivered most to date and which will dominate all supply finds of the future. We are, more or less, at the peak of oil production and have used one half of the oil we will ever produce. While I could further discuss the uncertainties in regard to the peak, it will come next year, as calculated from the figures available to us.

In addition, heavy oils are coming in slowly from Canada, where they are obtained by what is almost a mining process, and some deep water oil is coming in. That drilling for oil is taking place in 1,000 metres of water tells us something. What company would do this if there were easier options? However, this will produce only a small surge. There is plenty of deep water throughout the world but few places where deep water combines with the exceptional geology that makes oil production work.

We can draw from all this the devastating conclusion that oil supply will soon, as in next year, begin to be in terminal decline. Gas depletion will follow a little later. Gas is more difficult to model and while it is less depleted than oil, it has a different depletion profile, a matter to which I will refer in regard to Ireland. It is more susceptible to the problems associated with infrastructure, including the construction of pipelines and so forth.

This is not a trivial matter but will have a colossal impact and is at the heart of the modern world. The economy will be affected and this will herald some type of stock market crash because the growth driven by cheap energy will no longer take place. Society will be indirectly affected because the politics of the modern world is driven by meeting the dictates of an economic system that is living in the past. We are entering new territory and because of this it is hard to know how to react. However, it can be said that it is a historical change from the world we knew to one we do not know, and we arrive at this position absolutely unprepared.

I compliment the committee on listening to my contribution because it is a step forward that some are paying attention to this matter. However, this is not universal, although things are changing. We have reached the end of the first half of the age of oil. It lasted 150 years and it stimulated industry, transport, trade, agriculture and eventually people. It stimulated the growth of an enormous amount of financial capital. We now enter the beginning of the second half, the decline of oil and all that depends upon it, including this financial capital that was built out of the whole system which evolved on the strength of this cheap energy.

I show a rather devastating slide. At the time of Christ there were 300 million living on this planet, which had risen to about 1 billion by the time they drilled the first oil well. Then the population of the world went up six times over the past 150 years, exactly in parallel with oil. It poses the question of how many people the planet can support without oil. It is not a good question and a terrible one to answer.

I think the world is now waking up in a certain way. All this is evident for a long time to anybody in this business but there has been a hesitancy to come out and say it. There have been denial and confusion. We really face what I would describe as the malign influence of economists who say there can be no shortage in an open market. The basic faith of economists is that everything is solved by liberalisation. That is the mindset of these people. It was an admirable system before these physical constraints were found.

Now at last we have had this oil price shock which is raising awareness of this matter. Oil is now $50 a barrel — it was $20 a year or two ago. I detect a fundamental change in the establishment position. Just a month or two ago I was at a conference in the World Energy Council, a very prestigious and authoritative organisation. It changed direction 180° and admitted to peak oil production and spoke of its dire consequences. Here is a shift by a prime establishment body. Most governments rely on the International Energy Agency in Paris.

Was that conference in Australia?

Dr. Campbell

It was in Koblenz in Germany. The International Energy Agency still projects the false image of demand being met after 2030, growth, business as usual and a happy, comforting image, but there is a subtext to show many good reasons this scenario cannot be met. They do not say it directly, but with a little study you can see the hidden, coded message in what they write. I would detect a change there. BP, for a long time one of the worst companies in explaining all of this — all kinds of misleading statements are made by the famous Lord Brown — but at a conference about a month ago they amazingly came out with basically the same numbers as I have been proposing. We can see a shift there too. I do not think I will comment on the last item on the slide.

Let us end on what this might mean for Ireland. I am by no means skilled in this area and perhaps do not know enough about it but I would offer a few comments. Ireland in some ways is blest but it also has negative sides. The main blessing is a relatively small population, so it is a manageable situation, but it does have a very high per capita consumption of oil. The United States uses 27 barrels per person per year and Ireland is up there at 15.6, even higher than the European average. Ireland certainly uses a lot of oil on a per capita basis, and that compares with India which does not even consume one barrel per person. Ireland has become very dependent on gas. It is very vulnerable in the area of gas supply and needs a lot of oil.

One has to admit that there is only a slim chance of Ireland finding more significant oil and gas. Of course, they are still looking and hope reigns supreme, but realistically I do not think anything of consequence will be found. Ireland was not in the right place at the right time in geological history. That is not to say people should not look. Of course you could look, especially if you can use somebody else's tax money, but do not build on it as an assumption for future planning.

In the early days of the Republic energy was a prime consideration of the Government. They had the Shannon hydro-electric scheme which was widely acclaimed as a very imaginative, intelligent response. There was rural electrification and I think we could say that in those days energy was a national responsibility. There was the concept of trying to do something for the nation, for the country. Those days passed and in the recent years there has been the so-called Celtic tiger. The idea of national priorities and policies — national protection, you could say — disappeared in favour of the famous market. This is the flat earth economists speaking, who say that everything will be solved by the liberalised market. That does not apply to a finite resource, I suggest.

Ireland's electricity is fuelled 40% from gas, 31% from coal, 14% from oil and only 3% from renewables. Ireland is very dependent on its gas supply. At first the Kinsale Head field off Cork was enough to supply it but it began to decline and it will be exhausted within two or three years from now. Ireland tapped into the British gas supply from the North Sea. In the early days in Britain it was a state-run activity with long-term plans and responsibilities, but then the famous Lady Thatcher opened the floodgates of the open market and in came the enthusiasm, enterprise, initiative — all these good things. Everybody rushed in and produced as fast as they knew how. That had what was perceived to be the desirable effect of reducing the price to the consumer. Everybody cheered. This was an enormous success, but they failed to grasp the underlying irony that the better you are in depleting a finite resource, the better you are at doing the job, the sooner it ends. Britain went over the top and is now in steep decline.

In the heady days of the past, Ireland could easily afford this cheap gas imported from England and that seemed a very sensible thing to do. Now I understand the ESB is half privatised and there is a policy aim to make it more market oriented, which stimulates still more consumption. It seems that the regulator is to keep the cost down rather than doing the exact opposite, to fact the situation and to try to conserve. This is living in the past, not the future.

Information recently published by the UK Department of Trade and Industry shows that oil and gas have peaked. Resources are falling like a stone and will be just about exhausted by 2020. This is a government graph, not guess work. A few days ago I received a statement by the British Foreign Minister, Jack Straw. As part of the UK's international energy strategy, Straw announced that he would be tasking ambassadors in priority posts overseas to take personal charge of implementing and delivering its objectives. He said, "We will be developing with them individual country action plans on energy and we will be enhancing our posts' capacity on energy issues and making better use of our network of energy attachés." That is a fairly blunt statement of the realisation that Britain is facing the end of its own oil and gas and is now desperately searching around the world to make some special deal to fill the gap. It is a remarkably forthright statement.

Gas is less depleted than oil, with more of it, but it has a very different depletion profile simply because it is a gas and the end, when it comes, comes very steeply and suddenly, without market signals, as is now experienced in the United States. Gas, although it is a little lifeline, has certain dangers attached. Kinsale provided all that was needed for Ireland until quite recently in the late 1990s and then it declined steeply. Gas imports rose. The Corrib field off Mayo will be a lifeline for a few years but by about 2020 Ireland will be importing all its gas. British net exports will end long before then. That poses the question of where Ireland's gas will come from. It should not be forgotten that it is relied upon for 40% of electricity generation.

Britain will become a net importer in the next year or two. It will be importing first from Norway, then from distant places such as Siberia, central Asia, the Middle East and North Africa. There are many hundreds of transit countries between the source and the eventual consumer. Ireland is very vulnerable, being very much at the end of the line. Will Britain be willing to re-export to Ireland when it needs all she can get for herself? If she does so, at what price? As all kinds of infrastructure and pipeline connections will have to be rebuilt, who will invest in that to supply Ireland? There are many serious questions relating to this.

I suggest that this is a grave crisis in the making. The lights will go out unless some action is taken. I think there will be an economic recession reflecting this which will affect everybody, yet governments seem to be blissfully ignorant — Straw seems to be waking up — and they have a misplaced faith that the market must deliver. They are able to take this position because they are misled by the bad advice and confusing information coming from the International Energy Agency and indirectly the European Union.

Ireland needs to use the brief time left to study this question and prepare in some way. I suggest a small plan of action as to what one might do in this situation. A small office should be staffed with a few people to dig into the real data, understand it properly, see the nature of the problem. It is not particularly difficult but it takes an effort to do. The starting point is to be properly informed, which is certainly not the case today. The second point is that everybody needs to be informed. It is too easy for everybody to switch on a light. People do not understand the energy element in their life. I do not think there is any point in waiting for Brussels. It would be much better for Ireland to take these steps on its own behalf and consider it an investment in the future, giving it an enormous competitive advantage over countries which continue to live in the past. That is the challenge.

Then there is the issue of the world depletion protocol. Here I almost make a personal request. We are having a conference in Lisbon in May which will be attended by senior ex-Ministers from Britain, France, Canada and Switzerland to consider a depletion protocol whereby importers would agree to cut their imports to match the world depletion rate as imposed by nature. I will not go into the rationale behind this and its impact, but it would be a very sensible approach. It would be marvellous if we could somehow get an official delegation to come from Ireland.

The solutions are to stop waste, energy audits in both industry and the home, to penalise waste and reward savings. All kinds of steps and policies could evolve out of that basic direction — better insulation, better heat recovery. Tax could be changed so that it does not subsidise energy use as it does now. Why, for example, is aviation fuel tax free? This seems an anomaly. Many things could be done. Turning to renewables is not an option but a necessity. There is not any other way to go. It is just a question of how soon and with what effort. Renewables are barely competitive when facing competition from oil and gas dumped on to the market, but that argument is derived from the past. We need a solar collector on every roof. Massive tidal and wave energy could be captured. Wind power is part of the whole spectrum of possibilities which need to be encouraged in every way. That is the future.

I suggest that Ireland's needs are not very large and there is still time, perhaps with State backing, to look around the world and perhaps to get privileged access to Norway's oil, speak to Colonel Gadaffi or something. With a little initiative, Ireland could fulfil it needs to see it over this transition. Do not necessarily close Moneypoint power station. It is much better to invest in cleaning the emissions rather than closing the plant. There is still a lot of coal left.

The consequence of this is not all that dire. It might lead to a new regionalism, which some people would say would be rather nice, a local market, new attitudes, perhaps a return to the land in some way. If you wanted to be poetic and philosophical about it, you could say that out of this excess world in which we live might emerge a rather better harmony in the way people live. If you want to end on a happy note, one could perhaps claim that. The Celtic fox is a shrewd animal which thrives in Ireland and I would suggest that the tiger belongs to the zoo. Thank you.

Thank you, Dr. Campbell, for that very informative presentation. We will now hear Mr. Skrebowski.

Mr. Chris Skrebowski

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for inviting me. I will attempt a fairly straightforward idea, to simply look at the evidence that bears on what is actually happening. A sceptical old journalist is obviously an ideal person to be in this position. I have spent my entire life working in and around the oil industry. I am therefore not particularly hostile to the industry. It has given me a tolerable living. I am not one of those who is looking for the end of oil in any sense. I am just attempting to observe what is happening. I also have no particular axes to grind and I am in the lucky position that I have access to a lot of information. I have a lot of contacts. I would like to think I am well informed on the subject.

I first met Dr. Campbell in 1995 when he came into my office — I was editing a magazine called Petroleum Economies — and told me an earlier version of what he has just told you. At that time it all seemed pretty fantastical and I tried hard to prove him wrong. I enunciated all the classic oil industry objections. Over the years I have come around to his viewpoint. I found the evidence accumulating and in my position I started to notice there were fewer discoveries being made, fewer projects being initiated. I started tabulating some of these and tried to understand it. I have now reached the point where, if anything, Dr. Campbell is an optimist.

Theories are all very well, but we are trying to find answer to the following question of what is actually happening. What are the companies doing and what are the data telling us? Let us take as an example the well documented province of the North Sea. Up to 1999, oil exploration in the North Sea was growing strongly and everybody was making wonderful noises about how it could, apparently, go on for some time. As late as that year it was still growing quite fast, and then it tipped over the edge. What has surprised me, and I suspect many other people, is the sheer speed with which offshore provinces go down, once one gets to this tipping point. With the exception of 2002, when a couple of late large projects were brought on stream, it has been falling like a stone. The projections from the UK Government show a halving of production in a decade, which is enormously difficult to cope with.

The concept of peak oil is counter intuitive — if one is half way through a pot of jam, one does not immediately panic that one has no jam — I think the correct analogy is that it is like trying to fill up a bath with a bucket that is leaking from a tap that is sputtering. Let me develop that analogy, the bath is the world economy and it needs more and more oil to service it; the leaking bucket is the fact that depletion of reserves is a key factor and is currently averaging about 5% a year in 18 of the major suppliers around the world. In other words, 28% of the world's production is now reducing at 5% a year. That is a significant drag on the system. One fills up the bucket but by the time one gets it to the bath, one has lost so much. The tap is starting to sputter.

The oil industry does not keep its projects secret; in fact it is very pleased to tell the world and reassure its shareholders that things are coming up. With effort one can document all of this and see what is coming through. The oil industry tends to be rather positive because in the next three years many projects will come on stream. However, what is not accounted for properly is the underlying rate of depletion. Depletion in effect is like having rot in the basement which is eroding the foundations. Economists hold great sway in the current political scene because we are convinced that market solutions work. Undoubtedly it works brilliantly in the case of mobile phones. The price of phones stays high, people invest in new factories and churn out more phones, more people use them and the economics work just as the textbooks says they should. Economics is not predictive and ignores all the time lags. In modern society the time lag for many goods is quite short, but for the oil business it is extremely long. A major offshore project takes about five to six years from first discovery to first oil. Even a major onshore project takes about three years.

Supply and demand always must meet. We have tended to assume that we will get a rapid supply response, so if the oil market become tight, more oil will come in from somewhere else and all will be happiness and light. What happened this year was that the world ran out of all its spare capacity, all the ready to turn on capacity disappeared. While one has turn on capacity, one has potentially a rapid supply response that comes into the market and balances it. Once one has run out of spare capacity, the new supply is coming entirely from new projects, which come through quite slowly. Supply and demand must balance, so if the supply is not coming through, the first response is that price simply rises, which is what we have seen in the past year. The price has risen steadily and that cuts out some markets, which means that some people do not do things they might have done, but it is not disastrous until it tips an economy into recession. No one really knows what that point is, so I cannot say whether supply and demand will balance better next year because the economy has slowed down or demand is less strong or whether it will go the other way and the price will rise, but somehow we will cope with allocating more money to that part of the economy. Economics in its simplest sense cannot work very well when dealing with a resource constraint, such as that of oil and gas. That is a brief statement of what it is all about. I started off as an economist, so I can be rude about economists.

The substitutes for oil and gas in strict market terms are uneconomic, because in the case of wind or solar energy the numbers do not add up and that coal or nuclear energy is environmentally unacceptable. In this instance economics and economists tell us to use up what we have because the alternative is worse, the implication being that there is more to come, but if there is no more, economics can tell you nothing. That is, I suggest, the position we are moving towards. The major oil companies keep promising their shareholders they will deliver production gains but in reality, apart from one or two of them, the actual results have been dismal, with the promise of delivery on production gains tomorrow. In a bizarre way, they keep reporting they have bigger reserves. One might ask how are they doing this.

The slide of BP's Alaskan North Slope Production is very typical and tells us two or three very interesting things. The red line shows what the company planned to do initially and the green line is what actually happened. The project came on stream a year late, so the plateau lasted a year longer than might have been expected. These big projects tend to drift late, a function of big complex projects, and that is not a criticism. The company will happily tell that it has upped the recovery rate and will get much more oil from the field and therefore it is able to put more reserves in its notional piggybank. The problem is that all the additional oil is coming from the bit of the graph that is like the toe of a shoe. It is being produced more slowly and each year the return is less, which means that the unit cost is rising. That is a very unattractive business model. As of now, we do not know any way to get round that. All the companies try to hold the plateau for as long as possible, which tends to make the decline even steeper. It is difficult for the companies because it is not financially attractive and it will be even more difficult for the general public because the implication is that at some point the supply of oil will become slower and slower because more and more of the world's oil fields are in the decline phase.

When one will drive to the local forecourt, instead of being able to fill up now, they will tell you they may have fuel in three months' time. One could not run an economy on that basis. One could not arrive at the airport to be told that the flight should be able to take off in two months. It is a serious outlook. In the face of this — this is just a gentle piece of whimsy — everyone finds it easier almost to deny the possibility, to say it is not quite happening. It is not a conspiracy as such, but merely a significant problem which hopefully is still a little distance away and therefore everyone would rather not talk about it.

Of the big data providers, the IEA on whom most governments in Europe depend has a fundamentally difficult problem in that it depends on data supplied to it by the various governments that contribute to it and it has obviously a limited ability to say it does not believe them. The UK, for instance, tipped over the top in terms of production in 1999 but it was approximately two years before they would admit to the IEA that North Sea production was falling. This was not dishonesty, but simply a reasonable caution that something good might happen such as they might find something big and might be able to hold production for a while longer. What this means, however, is that the IEA is stuffed full of out of date data. It must use this out of date data, otherwise it has a big political problem, which is that it will go head-to-head with the data provider. When one gets as far as involving Middle East governments, where matters such as reserves, and even sometimes production, are state secrets, it becomes a nightmare.

The IEA, in fact, does its best but it has this slightly schizophrenic quality, where sometimes it reports what Dr. Campbell and I might describe as an accurate reflection and sometimes it reports a quite bullish and optimistic reflection of what is happening. I would suggest the only way around this is probably to approach the IEA on a completely confidential basis and have a confidential presentation from some of its analysts who understand these problems perfectly well. There is data behind the public data which is more accurate.

We get a similar feature for the EIA in the United States. The EIA, at the start of any of its reports, has a tiny disclaimer in extraordinarily small letters which states this is what is required for business as usual. If one starts with the assumption that one will juggle the numbers to achieve business as usual, then one is not doing an analysis at all but is providing a reassurance and that, in fact, is what they have been doing over recent years. As a result the fantastic situation arose where the EIA had the North Sea declining at half the rate which the North Sea's governments supply as public figures and where at a London conference a very senior Saudi stated that IEA's figures for Saudi Arabia were just plug-in numbers and bore no relation to anything. That is quite fantastic but perhaps the answer lies in that we are misleading ourselves if we keep using the public data. We need to get behind the public data and get access to a more confidential presentation of what is really happening.

The USGS, the big geological survey of the United States, simply answers the following academic question, "How much oil is there in the world?" People then assume that everything the USGS has told us about will be worth producing and worth finding. These are two heroic assumptions. In effect, people are talking at cross purposes. One lot is answering one question and everyone else is assuming they have answered another question.

The industry itself has this IHS database, which one may procure for approximately €1 million. I gather those numbers are on the whole rather better but even the IHS has problems with places like the Middle East, where the governments will not supply, even into a confidential industry database, numbers that conflict with their objectives. The King of Saudi Arabia announced some years ago that Saudi reserves do not decline. Saudi executives stand up on public platforms and solemnly state they have just found exactly as much oil in the past year as they produced in the past year. This is clearly preposterous nonsense but that is deeply imbedded in all the databases and analysis and no one, other than a limited number of people, is prepared clearly to state that this is nonsense. We are in this fantastical situation where decisions are being made and future projections are being based on a series of premises which are plainly incorrect. Until we get through this nonsense it is simply impossible to go forward in a logical manner. Obviously the oil companies have vested interests. One is hardly going to announced the truth too clearly to one's stockholders. That would destroy one's stock value and stock options in one fell swoop. These are the reasons people use for this denial.

I will take a practical example because there is no point in talking about the theory. The North American gas market is now in decline. As late as 1999 people were issuing reports stating there would be more than adequate supplies of gas in the future and people could safely base their investment decisions on this. Some 90% of all the new generating capacity in the United States was gas-fired because of the economics of gas and the assumption that the gas would be available. From last year or perhaps the year before, both Canadian and US gas tipped into decline. It is declining at quite a clip, approximately 4% per year. Prices are already three times the 1990s average. The US government is still in some strange form of denial. The financial lads are staking their future on LNG, etc.

There are, however, two big problems in the United States. The first is the permitting problem, getting this gas in. Particularly with the security and environmental concerns, people are not really sure whether they want large liquid gas import terminals close to population centres and they are encountering great difficulty getting that sorted. The second is the financial structure of the American gas market, where gas is sold on a short-term basis. If one is to opt for one of these large-scale LNG system investments which really are huge, one needs long-term price commitments. Otherwise one cannot raise the money and make the investment properly.

I am conscious of time. Some of the members must go into the Dáil at 2 o'clock and others at 2.30 p.m. Some of them have indicated the wish to ask questions of you and Dr. Campbell. If that were possible, then you could work towards some of the other points you wish to make. The members concerned are Opposition spokespersons. I am on the Government side. These guys must go into the Dáil to do their job of attacking the Government.

I thank Deputy Ryan for inviting you here and the committee for agreeing to it. I regret interrupting you because the presentation is so interesting and will be so helpful to the committee's energy module. We should have allowed much more time for it. Deputies Durkan, Broughan, Ryan and others have questions.

I have, if I can recover from my depression after hearing some of the predictions. I was thinking about seeking treatment outside.

I thank Mr. Skrebowski and Dr. Campbell for the interesting dissertation. When I was younger I undertook some study of the effects of the depletion of the oil, etc. As they will be aware, this has been predicted many times previously. In 1910 it was first predicted. In 1925, 1940 and in later years the prophets of doom were not as obvious. Oil prices have risen in the past year and Mr. Skrebowski may suggest this is a result of the signs of stock depletion. However, I think it is a result of those in the industry deciding to enhance their profits and the value of their stocks and shares.

Is it not true that several oil fields have been discovered, the oil wells capped and not yet used? Is it not true also that an alternative to oil is available but to commission it at this time would deplete the coffers of those in the oil industry? The end of oil as the major source of energy may be in sight in the next 20 to 100 years but the alternative is also in sight.

Dr. Campbell in the course of his presentation mentioned the unique position of Ireland. However, Ireland is an integral part of the European Union and is entitled to a fair share of everything that is available in the EU. Where we were before joining the EEC was totally different, but whatever is available in the EU will be available to Ireland, without exception.

One suggestion was that people would return to the land. Having been born in a hilly part of the country where previous generations left for various reasons, the return to the land is not an attractive option for the up-and-coming generation because of the dramatic reduction in the standard of living. One is dependent on the weather, whereas the telecommunications sector is a very attractive and clean environment in which to work. I agree that harnessing the waves is an alternative source of energy, but for some unknown reason people tell me the technology to do this has not been developed and it will be much further into the future before it becomes available. The world economy is dependent on petro-chemicals, but an alternative exists.

It was suggested that the regulator keeps prices down. I think prices are kept high in order to encourage more people to come into the market with alternative energy sources. I am not sure that strategy works because it could have a negative effect on business, putting people out of business before the alternatives sources of energy are needed. I believe that other options have not yet been discovered. Oil reserves in countries such as Iran have not been drawn from for some time, certainly not in line with their alleged reserves.

We must keep a check on our use of energy, bearing in mind the need to identify alternative sources as quickly as possible. However, the identification of alternative sources of energy may undermine the economies on which we depend. This has been a very useful presentation, but if it formed the basis for taking action I believe it would create the problem that we have been trying to avoid.

While Dr. Campbell is digesting those questions from the Fine Gael spokesperson, Deputy Broughan will put some questions.

I commend Deputy Eamon Ryan for his initiative in arranging today's meeting. It is a timely, thought provoking and brilliant presentation which makes members more aware of future sources of energy.

When the cost of oil was heading towards $50 a barrel, the Financial Times estimated that should the cost rise to between $80 to $100 a barrel, the major economies, including the Irish economy, would proceed into recession. Does Mr. Skrebowski share that view and does he know the triggers we should be watching out for? For many in the Irish economy, the increase from $40 to $50 dollars a barrel was very scary because we are so dependent on oil.

Do the speakers believe Ireland should be taking more drastic measure to conserve energy, for example taking measures to tackle SUVs, major gas guzzling vehicles, and talking to the motor industry generally and demanding that it come up with other options swiftly? As I understand it, President Bush took the pressure off General Motors, Ford and Chrysler to produce more energy efficient vehicles.

The taxation of aviation fuel was also suggested, but this is a very difficult option for an island people. While we export goods by sea, people prefer air travel. In my region, the airport is the critical economic force. To tax aviation fuel would be a very significant decision and Mr. Michael O'Leary from Ryanair would simply explode.

We are critical of the Government's position on alternative energy sources, in particular its attitude to wind and wave power. Is Mr. Skrebowski suggesting that we should be mature and consider nuclear energy? I understand that France took a strategic decision in the mid-1970s to go with the nuclear option and, unlike Germany, is not preparing to downgrade the nuclear industry. Does he think we must take a decision on it?

We read a great deal about discoveries along the African coastline, as Mr. Skrebowski mentioned in the latter part of his report. Is it possible that Angola, Guinea Bissau, countries along that coastline and, in a smaller sense in the case of the Corrib field, Ireland may be under-estimating? Maybe it suits the industry at this point to maximise profits by homing in on people's concerns.

I thank Mr. Skrebowski for a fine presentation which all the parties will try to incorporate in future policy development.

I thank both Mr. Skrebowski and Dr. Campbell for the presentation. I found it informative and enlightening in so far as they identified many of our concerns. My main concern has always been the power of the oil companies' cartel. They effectively control governments, rather than the other way around. I was conscious of this, and active about it at one time, when conservationists in Nigeria were executed at the behest of a major oil company. I have no time for such companies and the way they have held the world public to ransom.

I note the graph Mr. Skrebowski presented. Iraq has one of the largest oil reserves. We know why there is so much slaughter in that part of the world. It has nothing to do with weapons of mass destruction, but has to do with control of available resources.

A EU directive on the production of biofuels is imminent. In Mr. Skrebowski's experience, how viable is this as an alternative and how viable would it be for an island such as Ireland? I link that to part of his presentation in the context of land use. I would welcome his response on that.

In a recent presentation to the committee on wave and wind power, it was suggested that there is little knowledge of the effects of wave power and little investment being made in it. Wave energy has existed since the ocean existed. Waves hold tremendous power. As a former fisherman, I know the power of the sea. Why is enough not being done to produce power from the sea? It would appear other interests, for their own reasons, are trying to prevent that. Maybe Mr. Skrebowski will be able to enlighten me in that regard.

Mr. Skrebowski mentioned that there are oil reserves at 3,000 metres. Between 1979 and 1981 I worked on oil rigs drilling in the Porcupine in 1,600 ft. of water. Even though discoveries were made at that time, it was deemed the technology was not available to extract that oil. One is talking about drilling much deeper, to 3,000 metres. If there is the will and the need, that may be a fallback position for the oil companies. Oil prices are rising because of a shortage and one gets a sense that discoveries are made, tapped and left and all of a sudden the expertise is made available to bring in the oil and maintain control. I am not quite sure that is the case but I would like Mr. Skrebowski's views on it.

Dr. Campbell

I will make a quick point about the motor industry, which was raised. Coincidentally, I have just had a visit for two weeks from representatives of the Volvo car company from Sweden, who exactly accept this position as central to their planning. This is a car company which is indeed taking this on board. They do not know what to do but they are taking it into account for their future planning. This company is taking a serious direction. There is an example of at least one car company which is waking up to this.

The committee is looking at the person who chose the block on which the Connemara field was found. I am sorry to say it has only about 30 million barrels in it. I am sure it is not economic today but if, under certain circumstances, it should become economic, it would still be so small that it really would not make much difference to the world situation. This idea of adding little bits that have not yet been brought in is certainly valid. There is much that could be done but I suggest the fact that they have not been done means they are very small. Even a small oil field is immensely profitable and no one is sitting on a profitable oil field deliberately. What is not profitable today is small and it does not really help.

When I worked on oil rigs this discovery was made and they sank a number of trial holes. When they discovered the oil, they tapped and left it there. The oil companies, in particular, create a perception that this is not viable because of the depth of the water and because the amount of oil concerned is small, yet they have not continued with the exploration necessary to determine the full value of that field. The reasoning behind that is they are able to re-negotiate more favourable licences from the Government. When they eventually decide to develop that oil field and bring that oil ashore, it will be worth nothing to the Irish economy. That is the reasoning behind it.

I have tabled parliamentary question after question on that issue. The deal done in 1989 and 1991 has effectively taken the potential for the Irish public totally out of the equation at the behest of the oil companies.

Dr. Campbell

Ireland does not have much there and must provide exceptionally good terms to encourage anybody to look for what is not there. In the way the oil companies work, one can always fudge up a prospect. If the terms are good, all kinds of dumb wells are drilled. It makes sense if one is drilling with somebody else's money. I do not accept that there is a conspiracy by the oil companies to have a lot and not report it. I understand precisely what the Deputy is saying but I do not think it is realistic in the case of Ireland.

Mr. Skrebowski

The first question was about the international oil companies and their operations. The international oil companies currently control approximately 15% or 20% of the world's production. While I am not saying they would not have the interest, their ability to manoeuvre the price is significantly limited. Of course it increases if everyone becomes flat out because then everyone in the marketplace has leverage. At a time when production is flat out, every producer on earth has leverage because they can always threaten to withdraw that production which would necessarily spike the price.

The member then asked what is the trigger where the effects of high oil prices move from being relatively benign, drawing in more supply and getting people to use it more efficiently, to tipping it over into recession. The answer is, unfortunately, that I do not know. I would be a richer man if I did. I suspect it alters at different times. At present, everyone is being extremely relaxed about the increase in oil prices, precisely because a synchronous economic recovery is happening around the world. Businessmen are noticing that their energy costs are increasing but they still have plenty of orders. While the orders are becoming less profitable because of the extra cost needed to be spent on them, it is not a disaster and businessmen are still making good profits, not quite as large as hoped. The crunch time will come when the orders start drying up in the normal way of economic cycles and it gets harder to fight for the next order. Then the businessmen will start worrying much more about the price of oil.

It depends on where one is in the economic cycle. At this part of the economic cycle you can tolerate quite high prices relatively easily. At another part of the economic cycle when you are going over the top you will become much more sensitive and responsive to it. Then it becomes much more dangerous because you say you cannot afford to take on those orders and will have to start firing people or close down the factory.

Could there be a price level for a barrel of oil which would stall the recovery and precipitate a recession?

Mr. Skrebowski

Unfortunately we will only know after the event. I do not think you can anticipate it. Maybe the numbers the FT has mentioned or other numbers could be the trigger point for the emergence of a consensus that $70 was too much. That would almost be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Otherwise I think we will only find out the hard way.

We know the response can be very savage. Post-1973 the UK economy contracted by 8% over two years. A year and a half later it was consuming as much as it had in 1973. The 1979 price rises produced a longer but not quite so sharp effect and gave us the early 1980s recession. We did not get back to the oil production of 1979-80 until 1985 or 1986. We know it works in that sense. We also know it is pretty unpleasant and uncomfortable when it happens. More than anything else, what we are saying is look at this subject, which will affect our economies and standards of living. You need to understand what the real dynamics are. Unfortunately there is a lot of casual reassurance, a lot of poor public data floating around which do not help anyone.

I thank both speakers for accepting the invitation to come before the committee and for presenting information which not only ourselves but the Minister and the Department may be able to use. Perhaps the slides will form part of the record. One slide highlighted future oil supply, tightening gap and economic growth. Perhaps you could briefly explain where the figures come from. They seem to show the immediacy of the problem. If the Department communicating with the International Energy Agency is willing to accept some of the information, off the record, how do we set up an independent study group to analyse the figures ourselves? Is it a question of the State employing a number of geologists to do a field by field analysis? Have you any practical advice as to how the Department and the Ministry here should try to get the real story, if as you say the IEA is not telling the real story?

We have e-mailed the presentation to the Department and I have no doubt they will find it useful.

Mr. Skrebowski

In essence what I have done in a fairly practical manner is tabulate the large oil projects I know are coming up. These are not secret, it is just rather tedious doing it. I then made the first of many assumptions that we could use the 80:20 rule, whereby 80% of future production will come from the big developments and 20% will be the little bits that are difficult to find. That gives me a range.

I then tabulated the outright depletion. Various countries are producing less each year than they were the year before. This is the 28% of world production. If the UK North Sea is producing 200,000 barrels a day less this year than last year, the people who bought that last year now have to buy it from someone else. In effect, that turns up as demand on someone else. It is like a see-saw, with one bit going down and much more, for the moment, coming up. Countries will move from expanding to contracting. Finally the see-saw will be balanced. There will be as much going down as going up. Then it will tip the other way and in effect you will be in decline. It is mine and Dr. Campbell's view that we are just about to move into the balanced position and later in the decade it will tip over.

Taking the position that I know is occurring and simply extrapolating that forward with one or two small increments for things I know to be happening, like China going into gentle decline, like Mexico going into decline a bit later in the decade, I simply net off the depletion from the new production that I know is coming on, having allocated it to the years. Some come up and go down. Some come straight up and go along. I can then calculate literally how much incremental supply we have to meet incremental demand. Those are the figures I come to for the various years. This 2005-2007 is the basis for the well-documented oil industry story that there is no need to worry, there is lots of stuff coming on from west Africa and the Caspian area. There is quite a lot of stuff coming on — there is no doubt about that. These projects are real and they will come on. Where they are not completely open is in recognising the impact of depletion in eroding the amount becoming available. That gives a ballpark figure. The lower number is just taking the big projects; the higher number is taking the big projects plus the 20% for the little ones.

Next year will remain fairly tight. We will not be able to meet the sort of demand growth we have had in the past two years. Prices will remain high and may even go higher. That does not mean that there will not be a lot of publicity about new projects, that we may not get a seasonal downward move in prices in the first quarter as we go into spring. Undoubtedly by the late summer they will be coming up again and they could easily end next year higher than they are this year. The year 2006 looks a little easier, though not dramatically so, while 2007 starts to tighten up again. After that it really starts to go pear-shaped in the sense that there is not significant incremental supply available. In 2008 there is a little bit of wriggle room. If we start flat out in the morning with a big onshore development we could just about get some more production in by 2008 or 2009. We could not get offshore production in during that timeframe. We are already looking to a very difficult end to the decade. However optimistic you are about future activity and development, it is locked in because of the long time horizons.

Dr. Campbell

I would like to answer the other question. I would suggest that if Ireland was interested in digging into this for its own benefit and knowledge and in getting the expertise to answer some of these questions, it will have to do it itself. There is no point in asking anybody else. You have to get into the heart of it, get the feeling and the understanding. I would suggest that a simple solution is to follow the example of Volvo, who are doing this to understand it for themselves. You can come and spend a couple of weeks in Ballydehob and I can explain how this is and show the data sources. From then it has a life of its own. I personally could help enormously since I have the data and I have been in this for ten or 15 years. I would simply suggest that you start on what already exists, refine it and go forward.

Would Dr. Campbell mind if the Department made a visit to Ballydehob?

Dr. Campbell

They absolutely should and they would be very welcome. They would not be the first.

Is Dr. Campbell half a Corkman?

Dr. Campbell

I am afraid I am a blow in from somewhere else. I am an enthusiastic Corkman as of five years.

Should the EU not be moving towards a common energy policy, replacing the Common Agricultural Policy and moving towards the production of biomass products and biofuels? I attended a conference in Athens last year on behalf of the committee at which there was much discussion of biofuels, biomass and renewables.

Dr. Campbell

The short answer is yes, quite clearly they should. There is a certain amount of stuff going on in the EU in the undergrowth, but the problem is that there is no urgency. There is no sense that this is imminent, that we are becoming vulnerable. Even if you can get these numbers to add up, if you are dependent on every country on the planet doing exactly what it says it is going to do, you are necessarily very vulnerable. You cannot expect a large complex system like this to go on operating without tripping over and breaking down, and that is without wars, revolutions, upheavals and extreme political acts. The world is doing the equivalent of running a series of 30-year-old cars flat out down the motorway and assuming they are all going to get to the other end exactly on time. They are not. Some will break down, some will blow up, some will not be able to keep up speed.

Whenever the oil does run out, it is obvious that we have to look at alternative energies and cannot dismiss coal. I note what you said about Moneypoint and the fact that we must sort out the problem of carbon emissions but not dismiss the possibilities of coal. We are conscious of the fact that if we do not get two new production plants on stream by 2006 the lights could go out in Ireland. The requirement per annum is 5,400 megawatts and we will require 6,000 megawatts by 2006. If the plants at Aughinish and Tynagh are not on target, we could have a very serious energy problem. Has Dr. Campbell any view on that?

Dr. Campbell

Certainly do not use gas as a supply for the new plants. I suspect they are gas fired. Gas supply is a very vulnerable solution. I do have an easy answer. The demand for energy is soaring and even assuming abundant fuels of all kinds, the country is hard pressed to meet the demand. If you add to that what we have been talking about, soaring prices followed by shortage, it is a double whammy. This is a strong argument to evaluate this very thoroughly.

Although not seriously involved in Irish energy, I would suggest that you should seriously examine the possibility of importing gas as LNG into Ireland. This provides a competitive source against the existing company. It would open up a degree of supply security that you will not have while there are in effect two key sources. There is a lot of stranded gas around the world. That would be a very sensible thing to do.

The committee is examining the energy module and we hope to take up the issue again after Christmas and produce a number of findings and recommendations in relation to the management of our energy requirements over the next 20 or 25 years. We hope the Government will take on board a number of the committee's proposals. We will send Dr. Campbell and Mr. Skrebowski the transcripts of the presentations and we would be grateful for their comments. I thank both gentlemen for their informative and helpful presentation and apologise for the time constraints.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.45 p.m. sine die.

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