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JOINT COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS, MARINE AND NATURAL RESOURCES debate -
Tuesday, 20 Jun 2006

An Post Annual Report 2005: Presentation.

We meet today to review the 2005 annual report of An Post. I welcome Mr. Donal Curtin, chief executive officer, and his senior management team. Before I ask him to begin, I advise everyone that we will receive a short presentation which will be followed by a question and answer session.

I draw attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, this does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee which cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. Furthermore, under the salient rulings of the Chair, members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I advise Mr. Curtin that a group from Bagenalstown will make a presentation on its post office. Mr. Derek Kickham may be asked to answer a few questions in that regard.

Mr. Donal Curtin

I thank the Chairman and members of the joint committee for giving us the opportunity to attend these proceedings. I express the gratitude of the company for the committee's support and interest in recent years during which An Post has had to deal with a number of difficult financial and business issues. It has taken a great deal of work and commitment to create this proposition and bring a financial institution of the calibre of Fortis to Ireland to develop it. I pay tribute, in particular, to our commercial director, Mr. Derek Kickham, and his team for the enormous effort they have put into the project.

There has been some comment in recent times, to say the least, about the financial performance of An Post. It would be helpful to bring the committee through each stage of the journey involved in bringing the financial crisis under control. The financial difficulties did not start in 2003; they began to emerge over two years earlier in 2001 when the company recorded an operating loss of €6.7 million. In 2002 the losses deepened to €17.4 million. At the end of that year An Post set a budget for an operating loss of €15.3 million and a group profit of €1 million in 2003. This budget was based on optimistic assumptions in regard to mails volume growth, the performance of the parcels business, cost reductions arising from change agreements and the implementation of price increases. By the early months of 2003, however, it became clear that the financial position was deteriorating and by mid-year that it was reaching crisis proportions.

When I took over as chief executive in July that year, with the agreement of the shareholder, I carried out an in-depth analysis to establish the company's financial position. This exercise was completed over a four week period and the results showed that the financial circumstances were worse than thought and that the company was in full-blown crisis and heading for an operating loss of €50 million. The committee will be aware that, in the light of this financial position, the Minister sought a recovery plan to be submitted to him within four weeks — by end of September 2003. It was submitted on 28 September, following its approval by the board. Its essence was that the company would be brought back to modest profitability by 2005, through a comprehensive, detailed programme based on the achievement of cost reductions, revenue growth, including price increases, and asset disposals. The committee will also recall that by late 2003 An Post's cash resources had been completely exhausted and that a key priority was to generate a sufficient cash resource to enable it to meet its needs in terms of the voluntary severance-early retirement programme to which it had committed, capital expenditure requirements which were necessary and ongoing working capital.

In the immediate aftermath of the finalisation of the recovery plan the priorities were to minimise losses in 2003 and engage in discussions with the trade unions, with the objective of delivering agreement on programmes for change and cost reduction. The immediate cost reduction measures were successful in reducing the level of operating losses to nearly €42.9 million for the year, a catastrophic loss but, nevertheless, an improvement on the situation in the middle of the year.

Unfortunately, despite much effort in terms of engagement with the CWU, including intensive month long talks starting in mid-November, the union broke off the talks just before Christmas and, despite efforts to re-engage early in the new year, refused to return to the table. It then commenced industrial action through a series of disruptive disputes. In the absence of agreement on the implementation of major change and cost reduction programmes management was then required to implement measures to reduce costs significantly. While these were wide-ranging, they centred on reducing staff numbers by way of restrictions on recruitment of new and replacement staff; curtailment of overtime; absolute minimisation of non-pay expenditure and the elimination of non-essential capital expenditure. The measures also involved the company pleading inability to pay the terms of Sustaining Progress on the basis that its ability to fund the pay terms of the agreement was inextricably linked to the cost reductions required arising from major change agreements with the unions.

As 2004 progressed and the months passed in the Labour Relations Commission with little or no progress on reaching agreement with the CWU, it was clear that further decisive actions were necessary to reduce costs substantially. As a consequence, the board approved the closure of the SDS parcels operation following detailed examination and recommendation by management in July that year. The net result of the cost cutting decisions and actions, combined with the revenue effect of the price increase approved in autumn 2003, was that the company returned a small operating profit of €1.7 million and a group profit of €7 million in 2004. It should be noted that if the terms of Sustaining Progress had been paid, the result for the year would have been an operating loss of in excess of €18 million. The cash position had also improved significantly as a result of management's actions and the company ended the year with cash reserves of €90 million.

The committee will be aware that through 2005 the industrial relations machinery of the State expended significant effort in an attempt to move the CWU to a position where it could deal with the realities of the financial and business circumstances of the company. As I advised the Chairman in June that year, the assessors appointed by the Labour Relations Commission completed what they described as a painstaking examination of the An Post accounts and reported that "securing finalisation on rationalisation and restructuring requirement was essential to enable the company to achieve a position where it could pay the terms of Sustaining Progress".

The Labour Court appointed an expert group to examine in detail the company's proposals for change in the collection and delivery operation and issue a report. By mid-July the court issued its recommendations on the Sustaining Progress and collection and delivery change programme issues. These recommendations were accepted by the company but, unfortunately, rejected by the CWU. In the circumstances the company had no option but to continue with its cost cutting programme throughout 2005. The board and management would have preferred to have been operating on the basis of a change programme that was structured and planned having been agreed with the CWU.

By mid-2005, the closure of the SDS operation was completed and the parcels operation fully integrated into the standard mails activities, yielding significant cost reductions throughout the remainder of the year. Together with other cost-cutting actions, this enabled the company to achieve an operating profit of €16 million for the year ending 31 December 2005, even with the pay increases under Sustaining Progress. The group performance for the year was significantly enhanced by the proceeds from the sale of two companies — the An Post E top-up companies in the UK and Spain — which yielded once-off profits in excess of €60 million. The successful conclusion of those transactions, on favourable terms, also boosted the company's cash reserves.

While the journey from the financial crisis of 2003 to a position of relative stability at the end of 2005 has been an arduous one, nevertheless, it demonstrates what can be achieved by people in the company when they work together in the interests of that company — particularly a company which provides them with their living.

I was recently asked to summarise the factors which enabled the company to transform the crisis of 2003, with operating losses of nearly €43 million to the modest operating profit of €16 million in 2005. My answer was simple — we cut annual costs by €54 million in little over two years. At the same time, we achieved a modest 5% price increase of the order of €30 million. Staff costs were reduced by €31 million and non-pay costs were reduced by €23 million. Therein lies the answer to the question.

As the committee is aware, I will be finishing my term as chief executive on 13 July, having completed my contract. As I take my leave, there are a number of thoughts which I would like to share with the committee concerning the future of An Post. First, I repeat what I said at the outset — An Post now has a breathing space and it is essential that the opportunity it creates is utilised to have a debate of real substance between all stakeholders, so that the road map for the future will be set and all parties know what they have to do to fulfil their responsibilities both to the company and the services it provides.

An Post now has major change agreements signed with all the trade unions in the company. I cannot overemphasise to the committee the importance of delivering these agreements. Without delivery, particularly from the CWU, An Post will suffer major financial and business damage which will inevitably drag it back, at least, to the dark days of 2001 to 2003.

The financial services joint venture with Fortis, if successfully completed, has the potential to create a vibrant future for post offices around the country and to bring a real dynamism to An Post as it embarks on a new and exciting venture. I urge committee members to consider the importance of this development, not only for An Post but also for society in general, and to lend their full support to it.

I wish to thank the Chairman and members of the committee for their attention. I will be happy to answer any questions they may have.

I thank Mr. Curtin. I will call on my colleagues first but I may have a few questions to pose at the end.

I welcome the An Post delegation and congratulate them on their work to date. I wish them well in their endeavours in the future. I seek confirmation concerning a couple of matters that come to mind. The labour relations situation within An Post seems to have improved somewhat, which is essential to the company's future progress, growth and service. I would like that situation to be confirmed.

Could Mr. Curtin be more precise about cost-cutting exercises in the company? For example, did they entail the downgrading of post offices to sub-post offices and the closure of others? I know the argument is that we have more post offices here than in other countries of similar size and population. That may well be the case but the other side of the argument is the extent to which we can upgrade the facilities available in post offices to make them viable, as well as being a necessary and integral part of the life of the community to a greater extent than we have done in the past. These facilities should be expanded through the postal service with a view to growing the business. As Mr. Curtin has said, the company is engaged with a banking institution and we all hope that works well. It seems to be on course for taking on extra business that would be compatible with the existing level of activity. In the past, we have all recognised that An Post, more than any other organisation, has a foot on every doorstep in the country, every day. Therefore, it has some kind of influence on every family in the country on a daily basis. Even in today's gated society, An Post's employees pay a visit, if only to the gate.

I would have thought that more would have been done to encourage An Post to get involved with the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government in the compilation of the register of voters. It seems to me that it would have been a useful add-on to An Post, as well as being financially rewarding. No other organisation has the same finger on the pulse in terms of people's location and identity.

I am somewhat worried about the degree to which post offices have been closed. The rationale for closing them does not necessarily always stand up to scrutiny. We should be careful that in seeking to achieve a numbers result, we do not arbitrarily close post offices just to meet deadlines. Mr. Curtin or one of his colleagues may wish to comment on what is happening in that regard.

The other issue is the degree to which upgrading of the post office network can take place given the upgrading of technology at post offices and sub-post offices, the modernising of the system generally and the creation of greater delivery speeds. The regulator has been commenting regularly on the one-day delivery. We have not yet achieved that and there is some dispute over what has been achieved. Suffice it to say, that as technology and transport improve, it should be possible to improve delivery services throughout the post office network.

We should not forget that if there is a network system in place that reaches the four corners of the country every day, many other add-ons can be of benefit to the company. We have discussed these in the past and they should be borne in mind for the future if we are to retain the system as a viable entity. If we dismantle too much of the network in order to achieve the numbers game within a specified time, we could in theory affect the whole viability of the structure, which would make it difficult not only for An Post itself to expand in future but would also make it difficult for it to compete and survive.

Mr. Curtin

I thank Deputy Durkan for his kind words which are appreciated. It has been a difficult period in An Post. There is no doubt that the company was in a difficult environment. Change is difficult in any industry but in an industry that is over 200 years old and where there has been so little technological change, it is not unexpected that the process of change would be difficult and painful for everyone. As I indicated earlier, significant achievements have been made with the trade unions and all the major change programmes have now been put in place. There is a framework within which we can all do our business by taking the necessary cost reductions within the system, but that is only part of the story. As the Deputy indicated, there are other issues to be undertaken within the post office business. I disagree with him, however, on the downgrading of sub-post offices — there is no such programme and never has been. There definitely has not been such a programme in the past three years. A number of issues arise. Given the nature of the changing demographics of this country and the increasing age profile, a number of sub-post offices have chosen to cease to trade. Where this happens, we re-advertise the businesses. It is only where we get no suitable candidates that we must then move the trade to adjacent sub-post offices.

I have discussed the conversion programme of the company's offices a number of times in this forum. It is a sensible programme in terms of minimising the cost of the service but there is absolute proof in all cases that there was no diminution of service where the company's offices have been replaced by contracted sub-post offices. In fact, there is evidence that the service may in some cases have improved with the arrival of subcontractors. It is a measured programme which has been undertaken with a minimum of disruption.

As the Deputy noted, there is great value in the company's extended network. The banking business that has been projected is an attempt to leverage both the footfall and reach of An Post. I am optimistic that with sensible negotiations this can be developed into a business which will have a material impact, not only on An Post but on financial and retail banking services in this country.

I take the Deputy's point about post office counters. On the need for additional business, as the committee knows, in the specified period we have undertaken the Garda fines business which, with the banking business, is an example of how we can extend the reach of post office counters. It is my ambition and that of my management team to fully extend and build on that business. The great advantage of An Post is its reach. It should have as many profitable retail opportunities as possible.

The technology issue has been an item of some discussion and there is no doubt difficulties arose with regard to implementing the new technology in An Post. That technology is now fully implemented and operational, consequent on the recent agreements with the CWU. The operational performance at present is the highest it has ever been. There is no doubt that periodically it is affected by a number of issues, for example, a level of absenteeism and sick leave. The good weather last week combined with the holding of the World Cup resulted in an unacceptable level of non-appearance in our mail centres. This is a feature——

What about the position among management? Were any managers missing?

Mr. Curtin

No, my full team was working last week.

Is Mr. Curtin sure about that?

Mr. Curtin

My full team was working last week. This is a reality of life with which one must deal. Plans are in place to approach these issues in a systematic way in order to achieve the expected level of manning and availability of staff. These issues need to be addressed in a progressive way.

I note the Deputy's comment on the differences in the measurement systems. Unfortunately, two systems still exist. I have publicly stated that I see no professional reason there should be two measurement systems and it is professionally embarrassing that this is the case because it confuses the issue. Most important, why should the customers of An Post have to pay the bill for two systems?

How does the An Post system differ from ComReg's measurement? I understand ComReg will issue its own measurement in the next few days which will differ completely from the measurement in the An Post annual report, which suggests a figure of 83.5% for next day delivery. How do the measurement systems differ?

Mr. Curtin

I will ask my colleague, Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile, to provide some of the details. It is important to note the background and the compliance of our system. Our system is fully compliant according to international and independent adjudicators. We have given open access to our system, which is not the case with ComReg. From my experience——

Is An Post's record of next day delivery for a first class letter at 83.5% or 73%?

Mr. Curtin

It is what we measure it to be. At this time, by our system, it is between 85% and 90%, depending on the week. To be helpful, Mr. Ó Conghaile, the manager of regulatory affairs, will provide some of the details.

We will come back to that shortly. ComReg's figures will be different from the An Post figures. Has Deputy Durkan further questions?

What of the electoral register?

Mr. Curtin

As the Deputy indicated, it is an example of an opportunity for An Post. I see no reason An Post, together with the relevant authorities, could not sensibly examine this issue. However, I would add a rider that it is not unreasonable for An Post to seek commercial remuneration for the activities it undertakes. As the Deputy knows——

Is An Post open for business and would it consider that aspect of business proposed by Deputy Durkan?

That is what I was suggesting. An Post should go after the business aggressively. It is not enough to be available if somebody decides to offer it this business. In situations like this, An Post is ideally strategically situated to aggressively go after the business, to achieve its targets and to put the proposal to whoever is the customer, whether it be Government or individual customers.

We all recognise that An Post is competing with the banks in some of these areas. I do not expect the banks to begin checking the electoral register but An Post is ideally located, and has the personnel, to do so.

My main concern is that we have not discovered from the Minister, An Post, ComReg or anybody else how many sub-post offices will be closed down before we come to the end of that road. To what extent is that process likely to affect the effectiveness of the network, in terms of having a foot in every door in the country and having the local postmaster and post office as a business place for the local community?

Mr. Curtin

I reiterate that the great reach of An Post is a trading opportunity for the company on which it must deliver — the banking business is a great example of this. An Post needs more profitable product over its counter. At present, An Post counters undertake business for the State for which it is not being fully remunerated. For example, it undertakes certain business that has seen no cost of living increase for nearly four years.

What business is that?

Mr. Curtin

It is the Department of Social and Family Affairs business. Mr. John Daly, the manager of retail, might like to comment on the facts and figures of that.

We will not deal with that now.

The labour relations aspect is fundamental to the well-being of An Post as an entity. To what extent have the arrangements and agreements entered into between management and unions in the past six to 18 months been implemented? Are we likely to see a situation arise whereby polarisation again takes place and we must return to fire brigade action?

Mr. Curtin

As I indicated, agreements have been reached and significant changes have been planned and are being implemented. This programme lasts until 2008. The reality is that there are always at least two sides to these agreements. The delivery by those who signed the agreements is an important issue and will lead, if successful, to the survival and enhancement of An Post. However, if the agreements are not implemented, the Deputy should have no doubt that the cash crisis of 2001-03 could easily be repeated with graver consequences.

They need to be honoured by both sides.

Mr. Curtin

That is correct.

We must move on. We have had robust meetings here previously but I do not think today's will be so. For the record, can I take it that Mr. Curtin is talking to Mr. Fitzpatrick in the Communications Workers Union?

Mr. Curtin

I have always spoken to whomever wishes to speak to me. I am on personal terms with many, however that does not mean that we do not have disagreements.

I understand. Are the terms of the relationship better than they were previously?

Mr. Curtin

I am on the same terms with Mr. Fitzpatrick as I have always been.

I welcome the delegation. Will there be a new chief executive office, CEO, in place at An Post by 13 July, or will Mr. Curtin continue as acting CEO for some time?

Mr. Curtin

The making of such an appointment is up to the board. I am involved in the process only as a board member. I have made it clear that I will fulfil my three year contract and move on to other issues. That has always been my intention and I tend to do what I say.

Has Mr. Curtin been consulted on the process of enabling a successor to emerge?

Mr. Curtin

It would not be normal for the CEO to be so consulted, other than as a member of the board.

I notice that the outgoing CEO of Dublin City Council was a member of the panel that interviewed candidates for his position.

Mr. Curtin

In commercial companies that is not usually the practice.

If one considers the constituents, householders and small businesses, would it be fair to say Mr. Curtin's tenure as CEO has been a failure? It has been a failure because the quality of service has dramatically declined on his watch. We have had the debate about the consultants PricewaterhouseCoopers and the next-day delivery level of 83% to 84%, but in reality the regulator is answerable to us on the regulation of An Post and the regulator says quality of service has fallen dramatically during Mr. Curtin's tenure. Is this not evident in the annual report under discussion today which shows hundreds of thousands of complaints about the failure to deliver mail? People are exasperated having not received mail for a week or a week and a half. Recently a person awaiting a hospital appointment missed it because of the failure of the postal service. Another person had waited a long time for membership of a golf club but the response date had passed by the time he received the letter informing him of his nomination. This may seem minor but it is unacceptable and it is happening right, left and centre. This is occurring under the watch of Mr. Curtin because of the policies he has pursued and in that sense he has been a bad CEO.

Deputy Broughan is being disingenuous.

I am not. This is a committee of the Oireachtas and I will ask questions as I see fit.

The Deputy is being disingenuous.

The Chairman is a representative of Fianna Fáil and is not running this committee from the point of view of the Opposition. I am asking Mr. Curtin if his regime has been a failure. I am asking if he has failed in implementing the principal job of An Post, to deliver the mail, five clearances, five deliveries, five working days. The CEO has failed in his chief duty to the Irish people.

The Deputy should let me chair the meeting. He is being disingenuous towards the management, staff, unions and everybody who has worked to turn this company around.

I do not need the Chairman to give me a commentary. I have asked a question and the CEO is apparently prepared to answer it. Does the Chairman wish to turn this into a political committee? If so, I will put down a motion of no confidence in him, although I would lose it in this regime. I am asking a reasonable question. Why are people not getting their post? The outgoing chief executive is prepared to answer.

The Deputy will fail in his motion of no confidence.

That may be the case until the general election. Perhaps at another stage I will not fail.

I am in charge of this committee and have been for four years. I know the Deputy is getting restless, there is a general election approaching.

The Chairman should keep the debate at a serious level.

I will and I will let Mr. Curtin speak because I have questions to ask him about next-day delivery. However, I will not belittle his achievements in conjunction with management, staff and unions.

I do not accept that.

We sat here with a former CEO who told this committee lie after lie. It is a pleasure to see today an annual report showing success that has been brought about by all concerned, not only management.

Mr. Curtin

I disagree with Deputy Broughan. His figures with regard to ComReg are incorrect. When this management team was put in place ComReg figures showed next-day delivery levels of 71%. It has identified that while we have not met its expectations on improvements, the quality of service has improved month on month, leaving aside some specific months when disruptive industrial action was taken. It is only reasonable that they be removed from a calculation analysing trends in performance.

We all have constituents who tell us they received post only once or twice or not at all in the previous week.

Mr. Curtin

I will come to that if the Deputy gives me an opportunity. Does he think I am satisfied with the quality of service that persists in An Post?

I hope the chief executive is not satisfied with it.

Mr. Curtin

The quality of service at An Post has improved, but it has not improved to the level at which it should be. The agreements in place give the company an opportunity to reach testing targets at a reasonable price. We were very open on this issue. We took on the PA Consulting Group in a transparent way, allowed it to study the quality of service throughout the company and published its report to which ComReg has access. We opened the company up to it to find out where matters were not working.

As a result of the consultants' report a three year programme of improvement was formulated which involves working together. This is not an easy task because it requires significant flexibility and change. It also touches on other issues such as a reduction in sick leave. My colleague, Mr. Eoin Morgan, director of collection and delivery is available to answer detailed questions on such issues. We have high non-attendance rates, even having introduced casual staff. Prior to the new agreement we did not have the flexibility to bring in casual staff, we had to hire them for a significant period. Unfortunately, in some of the areas where casual staff were introduced to cover for sick leave absences, more staff took sick leave as soon as the new staff arrived. This is a situation that has roots in a period long before I was chief executive. It is an issue that requires a long-term cultural solution. I put in place the building blocks but taking this opportunity will require all sides working together.

I wish to ask a few brief questions. Towards the end of the industrial relations crisis the General Secretary of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions said "the truth [about An Post] became clear. There never was a financial crisis in An Post. It was a complete scam from beginning to end and it was a complete misrepresentation of the facts". What does Mr. Curtin think of this statement? Given that much of the €43 million was dependent on payments to people on voluntary severance, that there is €300 million in the kitty and a profit of €60 million what does one say to people who say this is Alice in Wonderland stuff that was spun because An Post wanted to put the workers under extreme pressure? I wish to ask about those same workers and pensioners. Does An Post not consider it disgraceful that the arrears for 2004 and beyond have not been paid to pensioners and the workforce given that Mr. Curtin, as I recall, received a €64,000 bonus on top of his salary of €360,000 for the same period? Is it not completely invidious and disgraceful that elderly people who served the country as civil servants and as postmen and women for 40 years are still waiting for those arrears? I understand that at recent meetings people were told they might get these arrears in 2010 or 2011. They are entitled to those arrears and should have got them if partnership meant anything. It is a central problem that this kind of partnership was not created with the workforce which might have addressed some of the problems cited.

Before Mr. Curtin responds, does Deputy Brady have have a question on the same issue?

I had a couple of questions but I do not want to be repetitive——

On the pay and pensions issue.

——because Deputy Broughan was obviously briefed by the same people. On the pensions issue Deputy Broughan has outlined the position. There are people who have not been paid the last pay agreement and €20 million is outstanding for pensioners and staff. Why is this money not being paid? From a political point of view the Government is being blamed. I am taking the blame in the neck when I meet people. Postmen are going bananas. What is being done about it? They believe the Government is responsible. There is also the question of why Mr. Curtin is getting astronomical bonuses and so on.

We receive complaints about deliveries particularly in the Dublin 17 area. I attended a meeting last week at which members of my party said they did not get post for three days. On the point Mr. Curtin made about sick leave where he cited good weather as the reason, every company has that problem. We will have to pray for rain. Everybody, including the banks, has that problem but there should be a plan in place to deal with it and anticipate it. I do not have to play to any gallery because I was a member of the CWU but I have a genuine concern for pensioners who worked for An Post for many years and feel nobody cares about them.

Mr. Curtin

Perhaps I can take the question in three parts. There is an issue of figures — Deputy Broughan quoted ICTU as in the scam issue — the issue of deliveries raised by Deputy Brady and the pensions issue.

With regard to the figures I refer Deputy Broughan to my script. I am on the record of this House. The auditors have confirmed the figures. I suppose——

What changed? An Post got no increased tariffs and there was no new deal with the Department of Social and Family Affairs. What exactly changed in this regard apart from the selling off of SDS?

The Deputy is not interested in getting the answers. If there are constant interruptions nobody will gain.

Deputy Broughan, please allow Mr. Curtin to answer the questions that have been put to him. I know the Deputy is anxious about this matter but please give him an opportunity to respond.

Mr. Curtin

The figures quoted to me are, frankly, incorrect. This company has, as I have indicated in my preamble and in the notes to the committee, received significant cash increases both in the autumn of 2003 and indeed in every area, other than the non-domestic stamp, at the end of 2005. We have taken the maximum increases we could take from the market place. However, as the Deputy is aware, there is another issue. I have a publicly stated concern that we are cross-subsidising the domestic letter service through the competitive business. The reality is that going forward no business could sustain the cross-subsidisation of the residual business, which is the domestic business, through the competitive business.

Getting back to the issue of the figures, I remind the Deputy that throughout the period the accounts of this company have not only been audited in the normal physical way but have been examined by Farrell Grant Sparks on behalf of the CWU, by Brian Barry on behalf of the ACPS, by Fitzpatricks and Associates on behalf of the CWU, and by Casey and McGrath on behalf of the CWU for SDS.

Sorry, Mr. Curtin, which accounts are they? Are they the accounts since Mr. Curtin came into office?

Mr. Curtin

Since we came in, all of the financial records——

Mr. Curtin is aware of the public record here and the blatant lies that were told to us by the outgoing chief executive.

Mr. Curtin

I am talking about the accounts of my tenure.

But Mr. Curtin is aware of that.

Mr. Curtin

I am aware of these——

Were those accounts audited also?

Mr. Curtin

No.

The ones that Mr. Hynes put before the committee.

Mr. Curtin

The accounts of the company before I came in were fully audited accounts.

Were they correct?

Mr. Curtin

The accounts were correct.

Is the accountant who was on sick leave still with the company?

Mr. Curtin

The previous finance director has retired on grounds of ill health.

Has he retired?

Mr. Curtin

Yes, on grounds of ill health.

We were anxious to have the chairman appear before the committee today to answer a number of questions on corporate governance but she is occupied with a legal case. Is that correct?

Mr. Curtin

I am unaware of that.

We had invited her to appear before the committee.

When was the chairperson informed that this meeting was taking place? When was the chairman of An Post invited to appear before the committee?

A number of weeks ago.

My information is that she was invited last Thursday and immediately they were made aware it was an An Post issue, there was an apology giving court lists as the chair and clerk would be away. We should be factually correct about that.

I will check that with the record. The Senator could be correct. We might have an opportunity to speak to her and the board members again, if time does not run out.

Mr. Curtin

To confirm, all those organisations, including Grant Thornton on behalf of NIB and the assessors for the Labour Relations Commission, have examined the accounts of the company. The accounts of the company for the period I am speaking of are 2003 onwards and they have been thoroughly examined. At no stage have any of those entities challenged the veracity of the company's accounts. Therefore, I stand on my professional record in this area with regard to the figures. They may be uncomfortable and may not be what people want to hear. People may need bluntly to take their particular side's propaganda at a point in time and use them. That is the cut and thrust of the businesses we all work in.

What has been spent so far on voluntary severance? What has been spent during Mr. Curtin's period on voluntary severance?

Mr. Curtin

Obviously I will need to go to the interim finance director for the details.

Mr. Curtin has answered the questions that have been put to him.

How much money was spent?

I interjected because I wanted to put on the record that we were not at all happy with information that was given to this committee before Mr. Curtin appeared before this committee.

Mr. Curtin

I hope I have adequately answered the question on figures at this point in time. Deputy Brady asked about the service levels. There are individual areas where we are currently addressing additional resources but the reality is that it is a business which has to be carried out in inclement weather. Both the Deputy and I have worked in businesses all our life where that is the case. In telecoms, postal or electricity industries, there are people who work long periods of their life in the open air. They require greater consideration with regard to health matters. Such industries have an impact on health. I am talking about sick leave far in excess of any of the norms for those particular industries. It is accepted that the postal industry has a higher than average sick leave record. There are certain locations where levels are extraordinarily high. That issue must be addressed.

If further answers are required, the HR directorate is here with me. We have not reduced it through a programme. It is a cultural issue that will require agreement by all. It must change, as no company could afford that level of sick leave. Most importantly, our customers will tell us that by using other services. It is a necessity for the company to change this type of behaviour.

On the issue of arrears, all phases of the national wage agreement have been paid to everybody. There is an accepted reality in An Post with regard to the payment of pensioners. I am under an obligation to the Department of Finance, that pensions should be paid pari passu to the payment of the equivalent staff. If a staff member gets a wage increase through a national wage agreement or a non-productivity wage increase, I am obliged to sign off proportionately on pension payments. That is the limitation on how pensions are paid.

Why did the chief executive, and other senior staff, take a bonus for the period in question, given that the collection and delivery issues had not been sorted, and that the next-day delivery matter had not been resolved?

Mr. Curtin

Everybody has been paid according to the national wage agreements, including myself. In the assessment by the Labour Relations Commission, there was a declaration with regard to the payments under Sustaining Progress from November 2003 to December 2004. In that period, an amount of €20 million accrued, which is owed to all staff at An Post and pensioners. That is everybody from me to the last pensioner. There is currently an issue with that payment.

Conditions around the issue of sustainable profitability were put down by the LRC with regard to the payment. A process is in place where the unions have requested that payment. That issue is now in process in the Labour Court for adjudication.

I will clarify for the joint committee. The arrears being spoken about by the witness involve both pensioners and staff. That must be dealt with at the Labour Court.

Mr. Curtin

The issue is currently with the Labour Court.

What of the other pay increases?

Mr. Curtin

Everything else has been paid.

We are talking about a two-year period.

Mr. Curtin

A payment of 5% was held back for a period of a year. The sum is approximately €20 million.

Recently, both pensioners and workers were informed that the corporate plan would not permit them to be paid for at least four or five years.

Mr. Curtin

The reality is that the LRC adjudication, which followed independent assessment, put the achievement of sustainable operational profit as the condition for the back-payment. An Post does not have at this point what is technically accounted a sustained operational performance. The reality of the short to medium-term business plan shows An Post going very close to breaking even and even falling back into an operational negative, although it is small.

That is the reality of the business position of An Post currently. It can only be secured if the change agreements are implemented. The extent of the savings required to stay on positive terms are of the order of €52 million. It is a huge challenge to the organisation. In that context, the unions have claimed the payment of the €20 million — now in the process dictated by the Labour Court — and it will go for adjudication. I suggest we await the outcome of the Labour Court adjudication.

I have some brief final questions. Several times in the past year or so I have asked the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Noel Dempsey, about post office closures. They include Kildinan and Church Cross in Cork; Cranford in Donegal; Brandon in Kerry, Fortal in Offaly; Boholas in Roscommon; Crosspatrick in Tipperary; Drumcree in County Westmeath; Tomhaggard in Wexford; and Grangecon in Wicklow. That list brought us up to approximately the end of May. In addition, seven post offices were downgraded from sub-post offices to postal agents. These closures followed 18 post office closures and 14 downgradings of sub-post offices to postal agents in 2005.

When will a time be reached where the optimum network for this company will be a reality? The company's chief operations officer, Mr. Donald, was very helpful when representations were made by me some four or five months ago about the Priorswood area in my own constituency of Dublin North-East. What is interesting about Priorswood is that a post office was closed and then it was to be moved to a new shopping centre. As Deputy Martin Brady will attest, a new city is being built in our constituency, a vast urban territory.

There would be commercial issues involved, but what are the criteria for closing a post office or for downgrading a postal office to a postal agent? What are the criteria for opening a post office? In the north fringe of Dublin North-East and Dublin North-West, there will probably be several post offices over the next decade to 2016. What will be the criteria for them? It was like the third secret of Fatima when we were battling for our post office. Nobody seemed to know the answer to the conundrum of what was needed to open a post office or a sub-post office.

I thank the Deputy.

Should the company not be much more proactive if there is a desire to expand the network? Is there an optimum network? The number of 1,400 has been mentioned. I remember having this debate ten years ago in a previous committee, and there were 2,400 offices at that stage. We are now down to 1,400 and the number is falling.

Why is the company still negotiating with Fortis? I thought it was a done deal and that the financial services aspect would be an asset for the post office from now on. What are the criteria for being in the postal business?

Did Mr. Curtin answer all the other questions? Is Deputy Martin Brady happy with them?

Mr. Curtin

I believe I gave my answers to the Deputy.

Before we hear more replies, we will hear questions from Senator Kenneally and Deputy Nolan. Does the Senator's questioning concern the post office?

Yes. With respect to the Chair, what did he think it would concern?

I did not know if the Senator had other questions.

I welcome Mr. Curtin and his team. I would have thought we could conduct matters in a more calm manner, as the figures presented to us are clearly much better than we have seen in the past. I think we can believe these figures in a way which we could not in the past, as the Chairman outlined.

Some of the matters I wish to raise have already been brought up. I wish to clarify some issues. One of the big problems previously was the total distrust between management and unions. I do not know if the distrust remains. Some questions were asked earlier about this, but the witnesses cleverly skirted around them. I will try to be more specific.

Has the chief executive met or does he meet with Mr. Fitzpatrick on a regular basis, be it every three or six months? Do the chief executive and Mr. Fitzpatrick meet personally in a formal and structured setting as opposed to an informal setting? That is a straightforward question.

Mr. Curtin said it is inescapable that An Post will have to concentrate on reducing its cost basis. Will he outline where this should happen? I realise Mr. Curtin will probably not be there to implement the process but I am sure he has views on the matter.

I am surprised more time was not given to a discussion of the agreement with Fortis Bank. It is necessary to get involved in new business and I believe that is where the future of An Post lies. When Mr. Curtin was last here, he did not appear enthusiastic about moving in this direction. The Irish Postmasters Union could see the merit in it and was pushing forward this agenda but Mr. Curtin seemed reluctant.

I was pleased when the news emerged about the proposed deal with Fortis Bank. How advanced are the negotiations, when is it expected they will conclude, and when will the process be rolled out? When the service is rolled out, how widespread will it be? I accept it will take time for the service to be extended to smaller post offices as the technology will need to be put in place in order to allow them to offer this service. What kind of timescale is envisaged?

Reference was made to the fact that some assets disposal has taken place, which has helped to improve the reserves in the balance sheet. Is it planned to continue with that process or have all available assets been disposed of? Most of the questions have been asked about pensioners arrears. I am sure this will be paid at some stage. When it is paid, will it be index-linked?

It is extraordinary that Mr. Curtin thinks An Post should be responsible for measuring its own level of service delivery. It is eminently more sensible that an independent body such as ComReg would carry out this function. My colleagues have referred to problems. There is no way An Post is achieving anything like 85% next-day delivery. I send post regularly between my secretaries in Dublin and Waterford. My time for posting at home is 4 p.m. Two out of three times, post arrives the following day and the same is true of post going in the other direction. I may even be a little generous with that.

I will probably be told to keep the envelopes, which are marked, so An Post can find out what happened. I previously wrote to Mr. Curtin about a particular case which he referred on. A gentleman from An Post came to see me who was most helpful and he tried to do all he could. Although I had kept the envelopes he was not able to tell me the reason for the delay. He was apologetic but could not help. I do not accept that An Post is in a position to tell us what went wrong even if we produce evidence of letters that are late arriving. The bar markings on envelopes which are used to trace the progress of mail are not on all items of mail.

With the permission of Senator MacSharry, I will take a question from Deputy Nolan on post offices.

It is a specific question.

Following that, I invite Mr. Curtin to answer the questions raised by Deputy Broughan, Senator Kenneally and Deputy Nolan.

My question relates to a deputation which will come before the committee following the An Post deputation. The group is concerned about the change in status of Muine Bheag-Bagenalstown post office. What issues are taken into account in deciding to change the status of a post office? What services will be lost to the town and surrounding community in this case? Most importantly, what input, if any, does the Minister have in regard to the change in status of a post office? In the past, Ministers had a significant input into the appointment of sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses. What ministerial input is there into the day to day running of the An Post operation?

Mr. Curtin should now be allowed to speak without interruption.

Mr. Curtin

I will go through the questions in the order in which I have noted them. Senator Kenneally referred to the figures. I thank him for his comment. He reflected on a period when there were difficulties between ourselves and the unions. As I said in reply to previous questions, issues move on, which is important as this is a complex and difficult problem. There is no one quick fix for this company. It is financially solvent but there are serious issues that need to be addressed. I was asked for a straight answer and I will give it; I do not have regular meetings with Mr. Fitzpatrick.

I will combine some of the questions I was asked about Fortis Bank. First, it is unfair to state I was unenthusiastic about such business. If one checks the record, on my first visit to the committee in February 2004, I indicated that while we were undertaking the recovery plan, a number of us who were newcomers to the industry did not share the view on what appeared to be the perennial problem of the closure of post offices. It is the classic question of the glass being half-empty or half-full. Our view was that there was a tremendous potential and a real, substantive and genuine business opportunity, provided we could put the circumstances together with the assistance of the IPU which has been most helpful in this area. We have seen the commonality of interests and we have put a good proposition to the marketplace.

The reality is that this involves State assets and processes and procedures must be undertaken to comply with regulations governing such assets. We set about an international inquiry. In essence, we moved from 47 people down through a number of iterations when we finally had four substantive bidding positions and, ultimately, with the assistance of advisers we made a recommendation to Government to choose a particular group with which to go forward — Fortis Bank. Since then, negotiations have taken place and a business-building process has been put in place which is a series of parallel negotiations and, at risk to each other, we put a business-building team together.

A team of approximately 40 people is planning the products and the future of this business. We have a testing deadline because the business needs to be in the market by the first quarter of 2007. In the context of commercial confidentiality, I can only describe the business in that context but if the negotiations are successfully completed, which I believe should be the case, then this can be a tremendous business opportunity that has the wherewithal to maintain the level of the post office network. Most importantly, it also has the opportunity to increase the cash flow into those self-same postmasters, which is a requirement.

With regard to the technicality of who appoints them, I am unaware of what is the situation. I am not a civil servant. I am used to working in commercial and semi-State companies where the normal requirements of commercial companies' governance applies, ranging from the executive directors, to chief executive to boards, and ultimately boards and having policy indicated by the owner. That is the order of authority in An Post. It is the same as any other commercial semi-State company. Therefore, decisions such as on the appointment of postmasters and who gets the contract is operated at the appropriate level according to strict guidelines set by the executive and approved by the board.

I wish to counter a number of issues. Regarding assets disposal, in the recovery programme we clearly identified the cash needs for the company, not least the commitments in place to ensure the pension fund was whole with regard to the level of voluntary severance and early retirement. I am pleased to say the assets disposal programme is now substantially complete and that it is not planned to dispose of any further assets. However, if new business circumstances arrive, a new chief executive will have to put in place new strategies to address those issues. I cannot comment on the future. That is not my function.

During my tenure, there has been no policy to encourage the closure of post offices. As already stated, a programme is in place to change the cost base of some offices by subcontracting them so that they will operate as sub-post offices. In no such case, however, has there been any diminution of services. That is not our intent. Rather, there are clear indicators that the service has improved in such instances.

Is the Fortis Bank service, for example, available in sub-post offices? Will locations such as Muine Bheag-Bagenalstown be left with a narrower range of services? It seems that the rate of closure is increasing, with a new announcement every fortnight compared with one every month last year. How does An Post decide that a particular location should not have a post office and that people must travel six or eight miles to avail of postal services?

Mr. Curtin

I will encompass those questions from Deputy Broughan in my reply to all members' questions.

I reiterate that there is no policy to promote the closure of post offices. As I explained earlier, there are demographic and business circumstances to consider in all instances of closure. In some cases, the incumbent sub-postmaster or postmistress cannot continue to provide the service. The service is put out to tender in such circumstances, but there are occasions when applicants are not forthcoming. Consequently, the business must be divided among the adjacent post offices. In some cases, we facilitate the survival of the service in the form of postal agencies, which provide a more limited service within the confines of other businesses.

It should be borne in mind that the State has more than 1,400 post offices and sub-post offices and 3,500 to 4,000 postal agencies. I am unaware of any other country in Europe with the same level and extent of post office service. The key to maintaining that service is ensuring that we continue to find new products and services to sell across the counter. We must keep the businesses commercial and relevant to the populations they survive. This is the objective that is followed through in the actions of this management.

An action group from Muine Bheag-Bagenalstown will come before the committee later. I have no difficulty in this regard because I am not returning to Cork but staying overnight in Dublin.

Mr. Curtin

I have been staying overnight in Dublin for some 30 years but I still go home to Cork. Two of my colleagues, the retail manager and the commercial director, are good Cork men and neighbours of mine.

Mr. Curtin picked them well.

If a group of business people in a particular location approach An Post management with an offer to provide a sub-post office service, is it good business to reject that offer? There is an example of this in my constituency where people are prepared to provide the relevant service in an area with a vastly growing population but An Post management is not interested in the business. Does Mr. Curtin agree that this is astonishing? Such an approach is not helpful if the management wishes An Post to be as proactive as, for example, Deutsche Post.

Mr. Curtin

Members' questions about Muine Bheag-Bagenalstown would be better answered by my colleagues. The head of retail, Mr. John Daly, and the commercial director, Mr. Derek Kickham, have detailed information in this regard.

Who is the senior person?

Mr. Curtin

The senior person is Mr. Kickham.

I ask Mr. Kickham to respond to the questions on Muine Bheag-Bagenalstown. Is he interested in keeping the post office network alive?

Mr. Derek Kickham

Since the current management has been involved in An Post, there has been, as the chief executive officer observed, no policy of proactive post office closures. It is clear that the interests of all shareholders in An Post — this also relates to the Fortis Bank venture — are served by maintaining the viability of as extensive a post office network as possible. We have always been committed to that. However, circumstances arise where people, for their own reasons, may choose to relinquish their contracts. Mr. Curtin outlined some of those circumstances and the consequences thereof.

The situation in Muine Bheag-Bagenalstown involves a conversion. I have always found some of the terminology particularly unhelpful in this regard and references to downgrading an office are inaccurate. What is involved is a change in the operational and management model and this is seamless from a customer point of view. Some 94% of post offices have undergone such operational changes. The Irish Postmasters Union, the members of which give great service to An Post and its customers, will be upset at the implication that the service on offer in some post offices is somehow less than that available in others.

An important issue is how we maintain post offices on the most cost-effective footing. In cases such as Muine Bheag-Bagenalstown, for example, the business can be operated on a more profitable and sustainable basis by a subcontractor than by An Post. It is in the best interests of a community that it have a viable post office service that will continue to deliver the same portfolio of services under a subcontractor model as was the case when the small number of staff were on the An Post payroll. There is no downgrading and no change in services from a customer perspective.

In regard to the Fortis Bank service, for example, it is our objective that the widest possible portfolio of financial services and products will be available across the network. It may well be the case that products are available at different levels in various locations because there are specific and onerous regulatory obligations that must be maintained. Our clear objective is to generate sustainable, strategically significant revenue streams for An Post and ensure that postmasters can secure an income that reflects the viability of the network. That is the purpose of the actions we have taken.

Is the post office in Muine Bheag-Bagenalstown run by An Post or by a postmaster?

Mr. Kickham

The post office in Muine Bheag-Bagenalstown is run and operated by An Post and is out to tender——

Will it be taken on by a postmaster or an agent?

Mr. Kickham

A postmaster will take it on. We only approach postal agencies when people are not interested in taking on the post office contract.

What input, if any, does the Minister have in the day-to-day operational functions of An Post in terms, for example, of the case of Muine Bheag-Bagenalstown? Has he any input into the change in status of that post office or the decision on who will subsequently be appointed by An Post?

Mr. Curtin

I understood that I had already answered this question but I will go through it again for the Deputy. My experience relates not to the Civil Service but also to commercial and semi-State companies. An Post is a commercial semi-State company that is run in a particular manner. There was a time when the Minister had direct control. Now, there is an executive management team, with a chief executive officer reporting to a board and taking policy guidelines from any shareholder who wishes to influence the business. In essence, the Minister operates as a shareholder. Day-to-day operational issues, however, are undertaken by teams reporting to Mr. Daly under guidelines prepared by the executive, sanctioned by me and brought to the board for approval.

Does the Minister have any input — other than an overall policy input — into the day-to-day operations of the company?

Mr. Curtin

His role is effectively one of policy input.

Why is An Post suing ComReg? Why are relations with the regulator so bad and why does the company dispute what the regulator has put in place? The regulator is required to have regard to the universal service obligations of An Post as well as Eircom and others. Why is An Post, as a commercial body, seeking a judicial review of the regulator's decision not to award an increase for the standard 48 cent postage stamp?

Mr. Curtin

The term "suing" is emotive, in terms of what we are undertaking. It would be sensible for all of us to recognise and accept the legal and commercial environment in which An Post now operates. An Post now operates in a regulated environment. The regulator determines what the company can charge for its products and services within the regulated area. The company received virtually no price increases, which was one of the significant causes of the financial crisis within An Post. No other industry could sustain itself without a price increase since 1991. That was impractical, nonsensical and inevitably led to trouble.

An Post got its increase. We are not going back to 1991 now. The company got an increase and then asked for another one. It was granted an increase for packages but not for the first-class mail service because the company was not reaching the 92% to 95% target for next day delivery. Is that not correct?

Mr. Curtin

I ask the Chairman to act as my guide regarding the precedents in this House concerning cases going through the legal process. I am not a lawyer, nor am I accompanied by one. I will accept the Chairman's guidance and will answer his question within that context ——

Mr. Curtin does not have to go into the detail of the case. It is a matter of public record that An Post is taking judicial review proceedings against ComReg regarding the procedures that have been laid out and the reasons for them. We have, in essence, two State bodies arguing with each other in a court of law.

Mr. Curtin

It is not an argument but it is definitely a disagreement. The reality——

Is that a Cork answer?

Mr. Curtin

It probably is. The reality is that there is an important issue at stake here, namely, the perilous financial situation of the company. Taking regular price increases is a key issue going forward. In this regard, I am talking about taking price increases in a transparent and sensible manner that is reflective of the issues referred to by the Chairman. I will not attempt to justify any organisation receiving price increases when it is not delivering on the issues to which it is committed. The question of quality of service has been dealt with, in that respect.

I believe the regulatory formula for An Post should incorporate, as it does in other industries, norms of behaviour. In simple terms, if the company does what it says it would do, it gets paid. If it does not, it should probably be penalised. I see nothing wrong with such a system.

The regulatory system that has been established by the Houses of the Oireachtas has certain inherent problems, one of which is the fact that there is no right of appeal. The only appeal mechanism available to companies such as An Post is the common law system. Under the rules of natural justice, every organisation has the right to appeal a decision made against it. If the only mechanism provided by the Oireachtas for that is the common law, then so be it. That is what the company has done and ——

Would it not be better if An Post spent its time improving its services and trying to achieve the target of 92% or 93% next day delivery? An Post has not even reached 83.5%. If I remember correctly, the ComReg figure for last year was 73% and I am not sure if the figure for this year will be any better. Would the company not be better off spending its time and energies improving services? I accept that Mr. Curtin is trying to do that, along with all of the staff under him. The company would be better off expending its energies looking at new ways of developing business for the postal services, other than through the post office network.

An Post returned a profit of €16.2 million for 2005. Its sales figures show a marginal increase, from €750.2 million in 2004 to €752.9 million last year. The company should concentrate on improving the service, guaranteeing more deliveries and getting more business.

Mr. Curtin

I have to point out that quality of service was not the written basis for the ComReg decision. One of the issues discussed in my affidavit is our lack of understanding of the decision. We do not know why we did not get our price increase. It would be very helpful for us, as a company, to know that. It is somewhat like an exam that one sits and fails. One is not given the marks and therefore does not know how close one was to passing. For the record, quality of service was not the stated issue.

With regard to the Chairman's comments on volume, I agree that the company must seek growth. However, the reality, as emphasised by all postal authorities in Europe, is that the availability of volume growth is limited. Just to meet the requirements of the Sustaining Progress agreement, An Post would have to put an extra 50 million items into the postal system and then expect people to deliver them at no extra cost. That is unrealistic.

Given the significant burden imposed by Sustaining Progress on a company like An Post, there is no doubt that there is a need for a system of evaluating the tariffs that can be charged that is transparent and reflects issues such as quality of service.

How does the tariff for the first-class stamp, at 48 cent, compare with the average tariff in Europe?

Mr. Curtin

Even at 60 cent, it would still be by far the cheapest——

I did not ask about that. I asked how it compares to the average European cost of a first-class stamp.

Mr. Curtin

It is far cheaper. My colleague, Mr. Ó Conghaile, has all of the facts and figures in that regard.

What is the average European charge?

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

The average European charge for a 100 g letter is just over €1, as compared with 48 cent.

What is the charge for a standard letter?

Mr. Ó Conghaile

That is the charge for a letter of 100 g——

I am asking about a standard letter. Do not give me figures that might not be applicable here.

Mr. Ó Conghaile

When compared with the EU 15, the An Post price for 100 g is the lowest, for 50 g, it is the third lowest and for 20 g, it is the fifth lowest.

Is that among the EU 25 or the EU 15?

Mr. Ó Conghaile

That is among the EU 15.

How much is a stamp in Spain, for example?

Mr. Ó Conghaile

At which weight?

Just an ordinary stamp.

Mr. Ó Conghaile

Under 50 cent.

Under 50 cent. Okay. Mr. Curtin——

Mr. Ó Conghaile has not answered the question. What is the cost for an ordinary letter?

Mr. Ó Conghaile

Spain would not be typical. The average cost for a 50 g letter is 70 cent. An Post charges 48 cent but Spain, at 42 cent, is the cheapest.

How much?

Mr. Ó Conghaile

It is 42 cent in Spain.

We will not go into that matter any further at present because I wish to ask Mr. Curtin another question.

May I ask a question? Let us say that An Post is granted its increase to 60 cent. What kind of an income stream would that give the company, in the context of mail under 50 g and the opening up of postal services to competition? A number of countries have a specific regulator for the postal service, for example, PostCom in the United Kingdom. Given that the business of An Post and the postal service generally is so different from the telecommunications sector, is there a case for having a separate regulator here?

Mr. Curtin

I am a utilities man. That is how I have spent my working life, and I have grown up over the last 20 years to operate regulated utilities all over Europe. As someone involved in utilities, one is conscious of the costs, one of which is the cost of regulation. One should not forget that it is quite a hefty burden on companies such as An Post.

Regulation should be professional but deliver value for money. Whatever mechanism can achieve this should be in place, whether it is an individual regulator or a regulatory framework bundling a range of expertise together for a range of industries. One would have thought that in a country of this size, the carrying of individual overheads might be a luxury that the economy cannot afford. However, that is a statement rather than an opinion.

We must move on and let another body address Mr. Curtin's problem with the regulator. I find it extraordinary.

Perhaps I might interject. Has the degree been quantified to which An Post's failure to secure the requested increase affects its viability? I would have presumed that it would be the first business assessment to be carried out. Was the result conveyed to the regulator? The regulator is not in business, but An Post is, and it must do a job. There could be a conflict of interest, and I hope that whatever differences have existed can be resolved, since they are important and may be fundamental to what happens in future.

I have to leave the meeting but before I do so, I remind the witnesses of a question that I asked at the outset on labour relations. I am not sure that I got an answer, and I re-emphasise my disquiet at the fact that there are no regular meetings between management and unions in a company such as An Post, where there have been difficulties in recent years. That suggests an answer, and I would like that clarified. There is also the issue of the collection and delivery agreement. I do not know whether it has been entered into, signed, sealed and delivered or whether there have been any repercussions from that. Does it entail increased, improved, enhanced or reduced services in certain areas?

There is also an issue to which we have referred here on numerous occasions. When the DHL service was discontinued, it was presumed that more parcels or packages would be delivered through the existing system and that it, in turn, would enhance, improve and grow An Post's services. I wonder if that is happening.

I am not sure that we have identified the number of post offices or the criteria used to close or downgrade them. However, there must be some overall structure to what is going on. It may simply be a matter of natural wastage, since in some cases there is no response when a post office is advertised. However, in others there are countless responses, and I do not think that anything happens. I wonder whether there is an overall strategy and plan.

Mr. Curtin

I will answer the Deputy's questions. I am conscious that Deputy Broughan also asked about the extent of the impact of the non-payment of the 60 cent, therefore, I am answering both Deputies. I am sorry that I forgot to do so earlier. The immediate impact of the non-payment is currently in excess of €12 million per year. There are regular meetings between the company's management and the CWU. However, to be frank, I was asked for a direct answer and gave one. There are no regular meetings between Mr. Fitzpatrick and me.

I asked whether it was a good thing that there were not such meetings.

Mr. Curtin

Within the collection and delivery agreement, which is the next question, a very detailed process is now being implemented through a range of interaction. I have brought along colleagues who can go into the details. They are the people who will deal with this issue, and it is important that members hear the extent of detailed engagement with the process. A very complex project is being undertaken by large numbers of people with a large and dedicated staff and a great deal of interaction.

On SDS, my ambition was that the volume of packages and parcels should increase, and that has happened. We are ahead of budget, and the business is profitable. Regarding the future, I suggested that now that the company has reached smoother waters financially, the opportunity may exist for a broader debate on the future of An Post, covering both mail services and post office counters.

Mr. Curtin has exceptional items on his balance sheet totalling €40.7 million, which I presume is for the sale of foreign-based companies. Before An Post sold them, were they profitable?

Mr. Curtin

Yes.

Had it decided to get out and focus on the core business?

Mr. Curtin

The e-top-up business was operated in Ireland, Spain and the UK. After a review, we took the view that the businesses in the UK and Spain required significant capital input. There were technological risks, and it was the time and place to take market value. It is accepted in the market that we received the highest market prices for them. Obviously, we have not sold the same businesses in Ireland, since it is our ambition to base those businesses in our post offices.

Did An Post make money on them?

Mr. Curtin

The sales showed significant profits, and that is reflected in the——

Did An Post make money on the sale of a profitable company?

Mr. Curtin

Yes.

I want to ask one or two questions before I allow Senator Feighan to speak. Recent newspaper reports, whether one should believe them or not, have stated that An Post is very unhappy with the proposal by the Government and the Minister's Department to introduce post-code proposals. Perhaps Mr. Curtin might address that issue and tell us why An Post is having such difficulty, noting that post codes are used in every other European country.

Mr. Curtin touched briefly on the Government business in which An Post was not being supported, and it is only right that we address that issue. I believe Mr. Curtin mentioned the Department of Social and Family Affairs, and it is important that we clear the record on that.

Another question concerns the 36,478 complaints that An Post received from customers, which are highlighted in its annual report. I am particularly interested in the registered items, which total 11,558, and I wonder why An Post should receive so many complaints about such items, which are supposed to be secure. Perhaps Mr. Curtin could explain so that the committee might reassure the public that its mail is in safe hands and is being delivered. If the figure is 36,478, how many items does An Post process during the entire year?

Mr. Curtin

I have gone on the record regarding post codes on several occasions. I will deal with them at two levels. I am conscious of the articles, but they do not represent the company's view. I have clearly stated my professional opinion that it would have been far preferable for An Post to have adopted a post-code system 20 years ago. The reality is that it did not, and I can deal only with the reality.

In the absence of post codes, a decision was taken on a specific type of technological investment that moves the company past the need for them, namely, character recognition. In other words, the machine can read people's handwriting and decide where the address is. Long before my arrival, the company expended significant moneys on that. My job was to get it to work. It is now working, and as a result An Post does not need post codes. We will support the introduction of post codes, but they will cost significant amounts, and it is unreasonable and unfair to suggest that An Post foot the bill.

Would An Post's competitors be hindered if there were no post codes? Is it more beneficial to the market in general to have post codes? In light of Mr. Curtin's comments, is it then a case of the Minister setting off on another wild goose chase that will squander even more millions following the electronic voting machines fiasco? Mr. Curtin said that technology has surpassed the issue of post codes so why are we returning to the subject?

Mr. Curtin

Post codes serve a number of functions. An Post's position has possibly been portrayed in a misleading fashion by the press. While An Post has no particular need for post codes because it has spent a considerable amount of money, possibly far more than if post codes had been introduced, post codes have other business and social uses.

The downsizing of the post code relates to junk mail and the availability for broad mainstream marketing purposes. Depending on the extent to which post codes are developed, some post codes contain a range of socioeconomic information which can provide a considerable amount of information to advertisers to which they are not entitled. This is the area about which I am most concerned and about which I have spoken publicly on many occasions because it is invasive.

Is it the stated view of the board of An Post that it has no difficulty with using post codes?

Mr. Curtin

The position of the board of An Post in respect of post codes is that the company has invested in technology and that post codes would be an additional financial burden.

Mr. Curtin already informed me about this.

Mr. Curtin

From my experience as a utility executive, there is no doubt that post codes have a number of advantages. In addition, there are social issues to which the Deputy has alluded.

Has the board formed a view?

Mr. Curtin

It has formed no other view than to which I have referred.

Is Mr. Curtin expressing this view as chief operating officer of An Post or as an individual?

Mr. Curtin

I have given both my view as a professional utility manager and the view of An Post. I have already articulated the view of An Post. My professional view is that utilities, such as the Fire Services or the ESB, have great uses for post codes. There is no doubt that in most developed western countries, a good post code system is a tremendous advantage to utilities services. Unfortunately, this country does not have such a system. This is my professional view.

We will move on from this issue. Could Mr. Curtin address the issue of the 36,478 written complaints to An Post, particularly the 11,558 complaints relating to registered mail referred to in An Post's annual report? Mr. Curtin can pass on the question if he so wishes.

Mr. Curtin

Under the universal service obligation, we record written complaints. The universal service obligation is a European standard that defines a complaint.

Mr. Kickham

There was an increase in the levels of complaints in 2005 but this was not significant. Complaints tended to focus on certain geographic areas, which sometimes related to some of the difficulties we experienced in the mail delivery networks. Some of these difficulties were related to industrial relations, which was unfortunate.

We tend to receive inquiries about registered mail items, which often relate to certifying when the items were delivered. Last year, we experienced particular issues relating to registered mail delivery from the Royal Mail. Many of the registered items which are the subject of inquiries are intra-jurisdictional. People contact us about registered mail items sent from the UK which we may or may not have received. There is a hand-to-hand process involved so we can always track these issues through. These are the issues in terms of complaints. We pass them on ComReg and our customer service staff monitor them on an ongoing basis.

How did An Post resolve the complaints relating to registered mail?

Mr. Kickham

Each complaint was addressed individually and individual customers received responses to their complaints. Complaints can vary from the late delivery of an item to a lost or damaged item.

Has An Post ever been forced to pay compensation or have complaints relating to missed items ever been taken to the Small Claims Court?

Mr. Kickham

No. Complaints tend to vary. The circumstances pertaining to a particular registered mail item can vary between jurisdictions. The terms under which a customer in the UK would take a registered mail item differ from those in this country. We may be involved in the process of tracking and tracing a particular item but it may or may not have originated within our jurisdiction or be covered by our terms and conditions.

The Chairman is correct in saying that many people would probably not complain directly to An Post or us. Is Mr. Kickham concerned about a possible loss of confidence in An Post. I am thinking of my own case which involved sending a planning submission to Fingal County Council in Swords on behalf of constituents. I decided to deliver it by hand because there was only approximately three days left in the time period and I was not sure whether it would have arrived in time. There is a five-week time period involved in planning. Is this not a common scenario?

Mr. Curtin

Perhaps I can interject with some figures. Unfortunately, I tend to produce figures in discussions. I will put the issue into perspective. The figure of 36,748 written complaints referred to by the Chairman is extracted from 800 million items. We are talking about a business that produces and delivers 800 million items of mail every year, of which 36,748 is a very small proportion.

I understand that An Post is a party to the REIMS agreement. How does the percentage of complaints compare to those across Europe?

Mr. Curtin

I will ask Mr. O'Conghaile about this but I am not aware that there is any uniform methodology of reporting complaints between companies in Europe.

Must the committee contact ComReg or REIMS to obtain this information? How many of the 11,558 complaints relating to registered mail have been reported to REIMS?

Mr. Kickham

REIMS is a mechanism which governs the commercial rates under which mails are exchanged and does not deal with individual customer complaints.

There are many problems resulting from mail originating outside this country which is wrongly addressed or mislaid. Has An Post raised this matter with REIMS?

Mr. Kickham

These issues do not relate to REIMS. We would always raise these issues with counterparts on a daily basis because it is essentially an international exchange business. As Mr. Curtin noted, the context in which we are discussing this problem is one where 800 million items are delivered annually. While any level of customer complaint is unsatisfactory, An Post is ultimately a customer service business.

The figure of 36,748 only relates to written complaints.

Mr. Kickham

Yes.

What about telephone complaints and other complaints?

Mr. Kickham

We also receive many inquiries by telephone which we deal with on the same basis. These are often routine inquiries or complaints about the delivery of items a day late. We examine and act on these complaints and examine them in terms of trends and other matters on which we can move. Ultimately, these are all issues of balance in terms of ensuring that the right balance is achieved.

In the overall picture, how many of the 11,558 complaints relating to registered mail originate in Ireland? I am particularly interested in registered mail because I presume the security for registered mail is much stricter than it would be for ordinary mail, for example, in the area of form filling.

Mr. Kickham

I do not have the figures in my possession but I can obtain them.

Does Mr. Ó Conghaile have this information?

Mr. Ó Conghaile

No.

Does anyone else have this information?

Mr. Curtin

No, but we can supply it to the Chairman.

It is important to obtain this information. If the price of a stamp increased to 60 cent, although I am not suggesting that it should, how would this affect An Post's participation in REIMS? I understand that one-third of all transactions coming into this country originate abroad in countries like Germany or the Netherlands. Much of my own parliamentary mail has been posted by Irish organisations in other countries. How would such affect An Post? At 60 cent, will it get more money from other countries? What is the situation?

Mr. Curtin

When I took over the role of chief executive, there was an issue of public interest in respect of what people perceived as an imbalance, that is, we were subsidising international mail. In reality, the improvement in our tariffs changed that balance, but there is an issue of loss-making. At 60 cent, the Chairman's example would not be the case. At that amount, we would be moving towards a breaking even point in the cost of international mail. Mr. Ó Conghaile can confirm this is the financial situation.

Am I right in saying that An Post has no price controls over 300 million items of mail entering this country other than what was negotiated through the REIMS agreement?

Mr. Curtin

We have control. The REIMS agreement is based on a percentage of a country's domestic stamp. Therefore, if we use the price of 60 cent, we would receive more from the foreign mail deliverers, which would bring us closer to the break-even point. Is that correct?

Mr. Ó Conghaile

Yes. As the REIMS inbound tariffs are based on our domestic tariff, if the latter was closer to its cost recovery point for standard letters, it would give us a benefit in terms of inbound international mail and move us towards breaking even on that traffic.

If I post a letter from Puerto Banus in Marbella, Spain, and pay 42 cent for the stamp, are our guests suggesting that if the Irish stamp costs 60 cent, An Post would get 60 cent from the Spanish mail company for delivering the item?

Mr. Curtin

It is a two-way street. We also pay others.

I understand that.

Mr. Ó Conghaile

The 42 cent is the Spanish domestic tariff. Spain's tariff for outbound international mail to other European countries would be higher. In the REIMS agreement, the costs are fixed in terms of the cost to the delivering country. This principle has been approved by the European Commission.

An Post would get the amount.

Mr. Ó Conghaile

We would get a proportion of our domestic tariff.

I am trying to understand the situation. We will move on to the issue of the Department of Social and Family Affairs. Was that all?

We should also refer to the National Treasury Management Agency.

Mr. Curtin

I will speak on the Department. Obviously, this is a significant business issue for the company. The stream of business is attractive in terms of its potential, but the reality is that the company operates within a contract. I wish to remind the Chairman and members of the committee that this issue is currently being subjected to European adjudication.

There are ramifications. An Post has not received any increases under the consumer price index since 2002. In that period, Sustaining Progress has called for payments that have led to significant cost increases. An Post can be justifiably proud of the service it provides to the community and it is not unreasonable to seek adequate remuneration. We are awaiting commentary from the Government on this issue, as we need the cash. In that context, this year's amount is not insignificant. The interim finance director, Mr. Quinn, and Mr. Daly can confirm the figures. For this year, we are discussing figures in excess of €10 million, which will have a material impact on the operational profitability of the company.

Is no progress being made?

Mr. Curtin

Unfortunately, the manner in which the company receives this payment is not a formal contractual one in which there is an absolute requirement on the payer to deliver. In a normal contract, inflation and cost of living increases come into effect. The An Post system is more akin to the old manner in which the company was handled, that is, as a budgetary item. As such, money is paid when the budget provides it.

Has An Post made an application, for want of a better description, for payment? The company has been waiting for two years. If I was waiting on a cheque for that long, I would start getting worried.

Mr. Curtin

It is a normal business issue. We do not make applications. Instead, we send bills. The bills for the legitimately incurred cost increases have been sent to the relevant parties and we are awaiting payment. Speaking as a normal businessman, these are unpaid bills.

Is Mr. Curtin serious? Has An Post negotiated an increase? If it is supposed to receive a certain amount, it cannot add more to the bill unless it discusses the matter with its customer. Did Mr. Curtin not seek an increase from the Department and the NTMA or, as he has suggested, did he just send bills to them?

Mr. Curtin

These are two separate issues. The Department is a significant business issue of remuneration. There has been ongoing dialogue and acceptance by our customer of the need to remunerate An Post.

Has there?

Mr. Curtin

That issue has been passed into the system and we are awaiting payment. This matter is one of how an old-fashioned departmental issue is remunerated as distinct from a commercial company that has legitimately issued a bill as per the contract. No one disputes the mathematical amount. Mr. Kickham and Mr. Quinn can advise me in that regard. Perhaps Mr. Quinn, who has been dealing with this issue, will comment.

Mr. Peter Quinn

There has been regular written communication and meetings with the Department and the mathematical calculation of what An Post would be entitled to if we got reasonable CPI increases since 2002 has been agreed. There is no dispute in this respect.

Is that correct? Should I take it that the Department's cheque is in the post?

Mr. Quinn

That is not the position. I said that the Department agrees with the calculations in respect of the impact of CPI increases on the fees. The Department has its own budgetary constraints imposed by the Government, but there is no dispute as to the extent of the balance.

We should examine that matter. In his presentation, Mr. Curtin mentioned a reduction in staff costs. On page 28 of the report, staff and postmaster costs as a percentage of turnover are listed. The performance was 67.6% in 2004 and the outturn in 2005 was 68.3%. Is that an increase?

Mr. Curtin

We needed to cover the costs of Sustaining Progress. If one examines the underlying costs and numbers from July 2003 to this month, on which I will report to the board, one will find approximately 1,080 fewer full-time equivalents in the business, that is, there is less staff.

This is Senator John Paul Phelan's first appearance at the committee.

I apologise for being late.

It is fine. Does the Senator know the rules of the committee?

Yes. I have not yet mastered the power of tri-location and I must be in three places simultaneously.

Does the Senator have a question?

I caught snatches of what was said in response to questions about Muine Bheag-Bagenalstown and I wish to raise two different matters. I have a personal interest in that my own family has been involved in running a rural post office in Kilkenny, though not in Bagenalstown. I am not sure who answered the question on Muine Bheag but it was stated that, for commercial reasons, it would be more profitable and would lead to a better overall service if the full traditional post office service in Bagenalstown was withdrawn and a new franchised service offered. I will play devil's advocate.

Will the Senator ask a question, please?

If that is the case, why are all post offices not franchised? How come the GPO is not franchised? Why does An Post not franchise the post office on High Street in Kilkenny? If An Post cannot operate its network as it currently exists, why are Bagenalstown and other places singled out?

How is it that An Post cannot operate a viable post office in a town with 4,000 to 5,000 people and a catchment of 15,000, covering all of south Carlow and part of east County Kilkenny? The witnesses should hang their heads in shame. If they expect an ordinary member of the public to accept a franchise and turn a profit by providing a service how can An Post, with its strategic advantages in the sector, not continue to provide the full postal service that has been provided in the town over the years? Where is the organisation going if a town of 4,000 to 5,000 people cannot have a full post office. That is crazy.

Mr. Curtin

We addressed some of those issues earlier today and have done so on a number of occasions before this committee. I draw the committee's attention to the rationale behind the conversion of company offices to sub-post office status, which arose as a result of an examination undertaken a number of years ago with the assistance of external sources under the auspices of Mr. Philip Flynn. The issues generated an agreed solution at that point in time. I and my management team have said consistently in this forum since 2003 that we see this as a business opportunity. I concur with Senator John Paul Phelan to the extent that when we looked at the issue it was a question of whether the glass was half full or half empty. One must arrive at a competitive rate for running the offices. Those offices that have converted from company status to full sub-post office status actually provide a better service than their predecessors, because there are greater incentives for the people who run them. It is purely a question of management.

In taking the opportunity to grow the services there has been and will be no diminution in the service. The new business environment involving sub-postmasters is a tried and tested system in Ireland and 95% of business in post offices is done through the sub-post office system It is a very good contractual system of which the company and its management team are fully supportive. The issue with Fortis Bank is a clear example of how we can grow that channel in terms of volume and income for the people who work in it, which is our desire. The customers will provide the acid test of that.

We will hear from the other side in a few minutes. I wish to correct the record. I was under the mistaken belief that the chairperson of An Post, Ms McGinley, was invited several weeks ago. I wish to withdraw my remark to that effect and say that I have been advised, and am of the view, that she was only invited last Thursday. I apologise for the misunderstanding in that regard.

I will ask a brief, final question. Tomorrow and the day after, and the day after that, when our 4,200 postal workers, men and women, walk out on their rounds, what used to be called "time and motion people" will accompany them as part of the change programme. Does it effectively mean that, in urban areas, instead of delivering to say 500 or 700 homes and businesses those workers will now have to deliver to 800 or 900? I accompanied one or two of our postal staff as I was carrying out my political business around the various estates and it struck me that they have to endure that hard graft day in, day out, whereas we only have to do it when we are out on business. It was warm, Spanish-style weather and they also have to endure the freezing cold and lashing rain to deliver the post. Is it not the fact that the end result of the policies of the current An Post regime will mean much tougher lives for those people? The current management has not delivered a proactive, successful company for them or for its customers — householders and businesses. Is that not the bottom line? I notice that the number of postmen and postwomen fell to 4,426 at the end of 2005.

Mr. Curtin

I accept that those numbers have changed. In fact, there are approximately 1,080 fewer full-time equivalents in the system since July——

Some 8,000 additional households alone have materialised each year

Allow Mr. Curtin to continue without interruption. The Deputy knows the rules better than I do — he has been a member much longer than I.

Not much longer.

I will have to get the Deputy the job of Chairman of the Committee of Public Accounts for the next six to nine months.

Mr. Curtin should proceed.

Mr. Curtin

The reality is that a change programme has been negotiated, adjudicated on by all the industrial relations institutions in the land. Ultimately we have all signed an agreement, which we are committed to implement, in which areas have been identified where greater productivity is required of the company. The process to undertake that is now being implemented in line with the agreement. My colleague, Mr. Eoin Morgan, the director of collection and delivery, can outline the procedures in place, which are normal and conform to international standards. Nobody is asked to do anything that they would not be asked to do elsewhere. We want the company to work to a normal level of efficiency. The Deputy is correct that this is an industry where people work outdoors and in different types of weather and the standards cater for all of those contingencies.

I thank Mr. Curtin and members of his management team for the presentation, which was very informative. On my own behalf I express sincere best wishes to Mr. Curtin on the occasion of his retirement from An Post. I understand he will formally step down on 13 July. I congratulate him on turning the fortunes of An Post around and while he correctly praises his management team, the board of An Post, the unions and, in particular, the workers, the leadership and dedication he has brought to the role have been a key factor. As a fellow Cork man I appreciate this and wish him every success in whatever path he takes after 13 July. I speak for at least some members of the joint committee in saying that Mr. Curtin leaves the company in a much healthier state than it was under his predecessor. I emphasise that everyone played a major role in that.

I will ask Mr. Kickham to remain to listen from the Public Gallery to what is said by the Bagenalstown delegation, which will present shortly.

Sitting suspended at 4.20 p.m. and resumed at 4.25 p.m.
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